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concretefuzzynuts
08-09-2012, 17:13
So, I'm in the store tonight getting some dinner and I walk past a guy who has all kinds of goodies hanging off of his belt. I could only see the left side of him but I could clearly see what looked like a stun gun, extra mag case and cell phone.

As he passed I turned to see he was also open carrying a Glock. Then to my surprise the woman he was with was also open carrying a gun. I couldn't tell what it was other than a semi-auto. Normally I just shrug it off and go about my B-ness but then I thought of ya'll and how much a picture of this scene would be GT gold.

I took the picture and went over to them. We had a nice conversation talked guns, carry issues, etc. I asked what his GT handle was he laughed and said he wasn't a member. So I told him I took the picture and asked if they would mind if I posted it here. They said fine with them so here it is.

http://i1076.photobucket.com/albums/w459/concretefuzzynuts/0a7f161c.jpg

There's more to this but I think that is enough to get this ball rolling.

Thoughts?

Dexters
08-09-2012, 17:17
It is good that you asked if you could take the photo and post it.

MasterShake
08-09-2012, 17:21
That's interesting, CFN. I've never seen an OC'ing couple before either. Thanks for sharing. :wavey:

concretefuzzynuts
08-09-2012, 17:23
It is good that you asked if you could take the photo and post it.

Well, treat others as you wish to be treated I always say.

:wavey:

concretefuzzynuts
08-09-2012, 17:25
That's interesting, CFN. I've never seen an OC'ing couple before either. Thanks for sharing. :wavey:

Never seen it before either. Nice people. But man were they gettin the staredown by some others there.

MasterShake
08-09-2012, 17:45
Not surprised, while some of us don't mind OC, unfortunately a lot people tend to go straight to stereo types and demonize people when they see OC. I'm Hispanic so I used to get the gangbanger stereo type back before I had my CCW. They are probably getting the backwoods, nut job stereo types.

concretefuzzynuts
08-09-2012, 19:36
One lady was hovered trying to hear our conversation. Not sure what she thought, not sure I care.

blackjack
08-09-2012, 19:54
Forget the OC, load up on the butter -- that's a great price.

CitizenOfDreams
08-09-2012, 20:28
Where are the pictures of the SWAT team storming the grocery store after a "concerned citizen" called 911?

Glock_9mm
08-09-2012, 20:35
Forget the OC, load up on the butter -- that's a great price.

I'm sorry, but that was funny!
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

NDCent
08-09-2012, 20:52
For some reason seeing her reminds me of the song by Rod Stewart - You wear it well. :dunno:

Lone_Wolfe
08-09-2012, 20:56
Well, treat others as you wish to be treated I always say.

:wavey:

You're a good man, CFN. :thumbsup:

concretefuzzynuts
08-09-2012, 20:58
You're a good man, CFN. :thumbsup:

Thanks darlin.

JW1178
08-09-2012, 22:11
Nice...

Not that long ago I was at a Walmart and saw someone OCing. Nobody batted a eye except these two saggy pants teenagers that were a bit disturbed by it "is that a cop, don't look like no cop" "yeah, but he's got a piece". You could tell they didn't like it. That was priceless.

Drain You
08-09-2012, 22:25
Can't an American exercise his 2nd Amendment right & pick out which style of Country Crock he wants without his privacy being invaded?

Louisville Glocker
08-09-2012, 22:31
They look so downright normal standing there...

Sam Spade
08-10-2012, 05:43
They look so downright normal standing there...

By which you mean, "oblivious to their surroundings and that a stranger has zeroed in on them and their weapons"?

Yeah, a bit, though it's hard to tell from a single snapshot.

blackjack
08-10-2012, 07:08
Nice...

Not that long ago I was at a Walmart and saw someone OCing. Nobody batted a eye except these two saggy pants teenagers that were a bit disturbed by it "is that a cop, don't look like no cop" "yeah, but he's got a piece". You could tell they didn't like it. That was priceless.

Likely impossible to do without being detected but that scene would have made a great YouTube video. Probably would have gone viral on the gun boards...

jeanderson
08-10-2012, 08:09
One lady was hovered trying to hear our conversation. Not sure what she thought, not sure I care.

She probably has a gun at home in her nightstand and just wanted some pointers on carrying. You should have invited her into the conversation.

hamster
08-10-2012, 08:26
....must avoid making snide comment about butter....

Seriously though,

It is nice to see people OCing. In Ohio I've only ever seen it once. It was a dude on a harley with a nice Sig 226

concretefuzzynuts
08-10-2012, 08:30
She probably has a gun at home in her nightstand and just wanted some pointers on carrying. You should have invited her into the conversation.

You know I thought about that. Mostly because there was a woman wearing a firearm and at that moment we were discussing crimes against women.

I hope the carry Gods forgive my negligence.

redbaron007
08-10-2012, 08:51
It's always great to see people exercise their 2A. I try to encourage everyone who OCs, if I see them. :thumbsup:

On another note, that's not a bad price on butter, especially real butter, not that fake stuff. :supergrin:


:wavey:

red

redbaron007
08-10-2012, 08:52
You know I thought about that. Mostly because there was a woman wearing a firearm and at that moment we were discussing crimes against women.

I hope the carry Gods forgive my negligence.

Your are such a bad person!!! :steamed:

You better hope the do....not sure we can!! :rofl:


:wavey:

red

Arc Angel
08-10-2012, 09:06
:shocked: Zounds! I don't think I've ever seen two easier to obtain, 'free' guns. As far as I'm concerned this sort of antisocial personal behavior is just plain stupid, inconsiderate, and extraordinarily self-centered. Open carry doesn't make gun problems go away; instead, it exacerbates many of the real (or, even, imagined) problems the general public has with guns. I will say this, however, about the only way either one of them would ever get me to, 'look twice' is to open carry a sidearm; and this is especially true of the woman - Who's, obviously, found a whole new way to get men to, 'look past' her other prominent asset. ;)

redbaron007
08-10-2012, 09:28
...snip.... Open carry doesn't make gun problems go away; instead, it exacerbates many of the real (or, even, imagined) problems the general public has with guns. .....

Please send all the stats you have to bolster this fact...or is it just your opinion?

:wavey:

red

RussP
08-10-2012, 09:31
There's more to this but I think that is enough to get this ball rolling.Well???

concretefuzzynuts
08-10-2012, 09:52
Well???

I'm glad you asked Russ.

The couple pictured are also both members of a Virginia right to open carry organization. Their open carry is more than just for self defense. There is also an element of a cultural statement in there openly carrying, not to mention an obviously political one. It is about individual rights and freedom.

The mindset is: It is might right, so I will do it to maintain my right.

Also, the discussion of difficulty concealing in the summer came up. At first I did not tell them I too was carrying and when I told them I was, they were both impressed at the fact there was no printing or obvious sign I was carrying. I had on cargo shorts (as usual) with an LCR in my front pocket, speed strips, knife, etc. in the cargo pockets.

All in all nice people and I support their right to carry openly though I do not.

AZL
08-10-2012, 10:13
Well...good for them...ish.

I am not a fan of open carry. Don't misinterpret that to mean I don't believe in your RIGHT to do so...because I absolutely support that right 100%. The Constitution affirmed it as a right given by God...not "da gub'ment".

I simply don't support OC as a practice because it is less than sound from a (GOD I HATE THIS WORD) tactical standpoint. I don't like anyone to know I am carrying. I'd rather have the JHP's expanding in a threat's center mass be all the warning they get. If some goober comes into a bank, retail establishment, mall, whatever...and sees me carrying and my pistol is sticking out like a dildo at Disneyland... and I get smoked before he makes HIS intentions clear...my pistol has done me NO good. If it is concealed...at least I have a chance to save my precious behind.

Anyway...I especially don't like open carry as a political statement. That's not what your pistol is for...

BUT...having said that...my on-the-spot view (in the wake of the recent spate of spree shootings, and bullcrap gun control proposals) is that we ought to have a NATIONAL OPEN CARRY DAY. Get every single one of us who can carry openly LEGALLY to do it for one day. What...tens of millions of people in states that have legal open carry? Whatever the number actually is...all of us do it. MAYBE a crystal clear message would be sent to politicians that we have reached our limit, and that we are DONE having our freedoms trampled by those who swore an oath to DEFEND those freedoms.

By the way...the deal on butter WAS good...but the dude's mullett was PRICELESS!

AZL
08-10-2012, 10:14
Oh hell...even thinking about it...EVERY gun owner across the country...regardless of local/state law should OC on one day.

THAT would be a helluva political statement.

Arc Angel
08-10-2012, 10:19
Please send all the stats you have to bolster this fact...or is it just your opinion?

:wavey:

red

I will when you do too, OK. ;)

Yes, this is my opinion. I'm a keen student of human nature; and I've yet to see public opinion swing in favor of open carry. Why? I don't know. Maybe it's because we're gunmen; and we're supposed to be better at shooting things and quicker on the draw than other people. I mean, let's be perfectly honest with each other: Waving a gun in someone's face - especially in a stranger's face - isn't the friendliest thing you could do. Right!

If you were interested in meeting beautiful women at a local nightclub what would you do? Would you wear a collar of foil-wrapped condoms around your neck and attempt to lecture all the girls on the virtues of birth control? (I don't think so!) :supergrin: Well, it's no different with sidearms. I'm sure neither you nor I carry deadly weapons because we want to exercise other people's constitutional rights for them. Neither do we carry semiautomatic pistols because we want to teach others about their valuable (and formerly inalienable) personal rights to go armed and defend themselves.

Most savvy pistoleros carry because they're scared - That's right; I said, 'scared' - and don't want to be caught empty-handed at the next political rally or movie theater premier by a stark raving mad gun-crazy sociopath who knows how to slip past society's normal safeguards against lunatic behaviors. I leave education up to school teachers and college professors. I leave skillful self-defense up to myself; and carefully concealed carry of multiple weapons is part of my personal self-defense strategy. I don't give a damn about statistics. I just don't want to set ANYONE off either unnecessarily or prematurely, without the very best of valid reasons.

Every time some, 'commuter dad' or, 'soccer mom' becomes unnecessarily alarmed by the sight of another civilian with an exposed gun, our right to go armed isn't helped. It is, instead, damaged; and, then, real gunmen like you and me need to work at repairing the public mistake that someone else with his social courtesy and reasoning brains stuck tightly up his self-centered butt has, once again, made. :freak:

RussP
08-10-2012, 10:25
I'm glad you asked Russ.

The couple pictured are also both members of a Virginia right to open carry organization.Virginia Open Carry (http://www.virginiaopencarry.org/) and Virginia Open Carry on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/groups/virginiaopencarry/)Their open carry is more than just for self defense. There is also an element of a cultural statement in there openly carrying, not to mention an obviously political one. It is about individual rights and freedom.

The mindset is: It is might right, so I will do it to maintain my right.

Also, the discussion of difficulty concealing in the summer came up. At first I did not tell them I too was carrying and when I told them I was, they were both impressed at the fact there was no printing or obvious sign I was carrying. I had on cargo shorts (as usual) with an LCR in my front pocket, speed strips, knife, etc. in the cargo pockets.

All in all nice people and I support their right to carry openly though I do not.Thanks for "the rest of the story..."

jeanderson
08-10-2012, 10:28
:popcorn:

concretefuzzynuts
08-10-2012, 10:31
Virginia Open Carry (http://www.virginiaopencarry.org/) and Virginia Open Carry on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/groups/virginiaopencarry/)Thanks for "the rest of the story..."

Thanks for posting the links. Here's another one.

http://www.vcdl.org/

RussP
08-10-2012, 11:08
Thanks for posting the links. Here's another one.

http://www.vcdl.org/Different organization.

concretefuzzynuts
08-10-2012, 11:16
Different organization.

Yes but a valuable resource.


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

Gunnut 45/454
08-10-2012, 11:23
Arc Angel
Nope not scared- just refuse to be a victim of the criminal element ever again. I deter the criminal element by showing them I will not be harmed without inflicking the same pain on them. Most criminals don't want conflict and or damage to occur to themselves- they just like to inflict it on there victim. So when they see the probability is very high they will be harmed in the process of doing there criminal acts they tend to go to an easier target! The unarmed sheep! It's a proven sociaiogical fact when you show strength you thwart aggression.:supergrin:

Perfect example the Aruora shooter - he went to great lengths to protect his body from harm didn't he? Otherwise why wear all that body armor! Why did he surrender with out a fight?

Green Mountain Boy
08-10-2012, 11:38
I wouldn't mess with her gun or not!!! I would hate to be the mugger that bumped into her in a dark alley.

OC is going to eventually ruin our right to carry period. I do however like living in an OC state in case someting slips it is not as big a desl.

My gun is for me and mine not to impress anyone else it is as simple as that.

Regards, GMB

Jack23
08-10-2012, 12:30
Cool! Seeing a couple open carrying is a first for me too. I like the idea. A LOT!!! Thanks for the pic.

redbaron007
08-10-2012, 12:43
I will when you do too, OK. ;)

Yes, this is my opinion. I'm a keen student of human nature; and I've yet to see public opinion swing in favor of open carry. Why? I don't know. Maybe it's because we're gunmen; and we're supposed to be better at shooting things and quicker on the draw than other people. I mean, let's be perfectly honest with each other: Waving a gun in someone's face - especially in a stranger's face - isn't the friendliest thing you could do. Right!

If you were interested in meeting beautiful women at a local nightclub what would you do? Would you wear a collar of foil-wrapped condoms around your neck and attempt to lecture all the girls on the virtues of birth control? (I don't think so!) :supergrin: Well, it's no different with sidearms. I'm sure neither you nor I carry deadly weapons because we want to exercise other people's constitutional rights for them. Neither do we carry semiautomatic pistols because we want to teach others about their valuable (and formerly inalienable) personal rights to go armed and defend themselves.

Most savvy pistoleros carry because they're scared - That's right; I said, 'scared' - and don't want to be caught empty-handed at the next political rally or movie theater premier by a stark raving mad gun-crazy sociopath who knows how to slip past society's normal safeguards against lunatic behaviors. I leave education up to school teachers and college professors. I leave skillful self-defense up to myself; and carefully concealed carry of multiple weapons is part of my personal self-defense strategy. I don't give a damn about statistics. I just don't want to set ANYONE off either unnecessarily or prematurely, without the very best of valid reasons.

Every time some, 'commuter dad' or, 'soccer mom' becomes unnecessarily alarmed by the sight of another civilian with an exposed gun, our right to go armed isn't helped. It is, instead, damaged; and, then, real gunmen like you and me need to work at repairing the public mistake that someone else with his social courtesy and reasoning brains stuck tightly up his self-centered butt has, once again, made. :freak:

So in short...it's your opinion. See, That took less space then your splenation/rationalization.

Thanks for your opinion.

:wavey:

red

Stevekozak
08-10-2012, 18:10
Good on them, I say!! The couple that carries together.... :) And as someone that LOVES butter, that is a good deal on butter!!

sappy13
08-10-2012, 20:03
concealed carry would have prevent this...That is pretty awesome to see a couple OC. Iv never seen that

HKLovingIT
08-10-2012, 20:05
I have seen a couple of open carriers around here. I have seen three incidents of it that I remember like they were burned into my brain: :shocked: I will share my experiences with the forum so that others may learn. So, pull up a chair and listen here noobs!

Incident 1:

I was at Wal-Mart. That's right, Wal-Mart. I came around the corner of the aisle and my God, there he was. A younger man, clean cut, neatly dressed, with a crew cut and a Safariland ALS. G22 riding proud and out loud. On his other hip were two spare magazines in matching carrier. He was with what appeared to be his wife, and they were shopping in the pet aisle.

Beads of sweat immediately broke out on my forehead. I assessed my tactical options and decided that I was too far down the aisle for tactical withdrawal. I know from watching the Magpul DVD clips on YouTube that you have to take action and not hesitate. When you commit you commit. I decided that I would have to try to work my way past him without drawing notice.

I bladed my right side away so as to keep my concealed G26 as far away from him as possible. As I slipped past he stooped and retrieved a bag of cat litter. Fresh Step, Unscented.

He must have been in condition yellow and seen my movement from his peripheral vision. He turned his head towards me. I froze in place like a squirrel hoping not to be seen. That's a tactical move not on the DVDs but it has served me well throughout my life.

We locked eyes for a tense moment, I was still hoping that if I didn't move, coupled with my urban pattern camo pants, he wouldn't see me, but he said "Hi." Crap, I thought, this guy is good! I looked at him for what seemed like hours, but it had to have been only seconds, it was like that tunnel vision / time slowing, adrenaline dump thing everyone is always talking about. I knew then that I was in midst of 'the business.'

I took stock of my options, like from that scene in Terminator 1 where the hotel guy is hassling Arnold while he's fixing his eye, and then I said "Hi, how's it going?" in my loudest "Command Voice." He said "Good." His wife smiled and he turned back to what he was doing.

Since he was distracted again, I unlocked myself from my rigid "tactical squirrel freeze" position. I was then able to do a tactical pooh and scoot and make it out of the aisle unharmed and still armed.

As I stood there panting and using the Pepsi display at the other end of the aisle for cover, I thought about my tactical situation. I knew from watching TNOutdoors9 videos that the Pepsi jugs would give good cover. Then it hit me. What a dope I was!

He had really short hair. Like cop hair! I put two and two together. Since I live near the Police Academy, he was probably an officer in training, out for the weekend with his wife. Duh, HKLovingIT! Duh. I punched myself in the noggin a couple times for not figuring that out immediately when I spotted him. Jay-sus, I almost got myself in a situation where my rights could have been violated!

Well, the last thing I needed was for a hot-shot, rookie cop (who wasn't wearing his hat by the way) to come at me and try to Terry stop me or some other legal mumbo-jumbo, alphabet soup that wasn't written into the Constitution in order to score more points on his Academy finals. No sir. Not me. Not today. No way.

I decided I would have to haul ass outta the Wal-Mart. My Gold Bond Powder and Preparation-H would have to wait for another day. I had bigger fish to fry than my itchy rear end and my cracked feet. My Constitutional rights were at stake and 'The Man' was right there in that very damn aisle probably plotting to take them while pretending to be buying cat care supplies.

Hell, I bet that wasn't even his wife. Likely she was an undercover TSA agent on that operation Viper thing. Out there assisting local law enforcement with establishing the new world order.

I needed to be ready to run for it so I quickly fumbled for my car keys, my hands shaking and wet with perspiration. It wasn't dark yet, only about 9 AM, but just in case, I eased out my Surefire G2ZX-1000 and held it weak hand with my keys. Better to have and not need.

I edged closer to the corner of the aisle, slicing the pie, to see what he was doing. Crap! He wasn't in that aisle anymore. I figured he was calling for backup and was circling around behind me in an attempt to infringe my rights. "Like hell!" I thought.

Like a man that has to go to the bathroom really bad (I did) I speed walked to the entrance, blowing past the receipt checker lady. Luckily the old crone was busy harassing some shoppers who were trying to make it out with a confusing selection of potted plants.

Lucky for her. I wasn't stopping for nothing. If Grandma had got all up in my grill about some receipts she was just going to get steamrolled out of the way by 5' 7" and 290 pounds of 2A righteous fury. I felt like Thomas Jefferson was right there with his hand on my shoulder like a guardian angel guiding me and whispering bits of wisdom in my ear.

Watching my six the whole time I hustled out to the parking lot. I made it to my car, did a front roll, took a knee to get cover behind the engine block and did a 360 scan before getting inside and locking my doors. After a couple of sips from my Cherry Slurpee, I immediately called my attorney and left a message about what just happened, just in case. That was the scare of my life.

Incident 2:

I was at a convenience store. Your typical suburban type of stop and rob. Whenever I go there I always strap on the big heat. G17 with Surefire X300 AIWB, G26 in Galco Ankle Glove, 3 spare mags, 2 Surefire G2 flashlights, my Spyderco EDC and my Pro-Tech TR3 EDC tactical blade, plus Leatherman multi-tool.

On my other hip I keep a blow-out kit and tourniquet plus spare cell phone. If you don't have commo, you're a dead man. Got my AK side folder in the car in a gym bag with 3 Romanian drum mags, plus full trauma kit and spare batteries. Doors to the car lined with phone books like in that Myth Busters episode in case I need to get into a position of tactical advantage.

So I'm standing there 360 scanning while I'm waiting in line and a very tired looking old guy came in. I noticed he was wearing a crossbreed without a cover garment. Just a white t-shirt (with some random food stains on it - taco I think) tucked into his pants, the holster sandwiched between the t-shirt and his jeans. Visible out the top of the holster, a G19 or G23 was sticking out. So I'm not sure if it was technically open carry or more "I don't give a crap." carry. Either way, he looked sloppy and in my mind sloppy plus gun means batten down the hatches cause this ship is about to pull out of port and steam straight for the high seas of condition Red.

I made him as soon as he walked in and he knew it, but the bastard played it cool. He walked right past me like there was nothing in the world going on and paid for his gas. I watched for any sign of distress from the clerk. I'm not into being a hero, but I'll do my part if something goes down.

I didn't see any signals from the girl behind the counter so I just watched. My eyes were practically burning holes into the back of his combed over head. You bet he knew he was being watched!

Looked like he finished up his business. Then like the arrogant prig he was he turned around and walked right past me again as he made his way out the door.

For a second I thought maybe I should sweep the leg (Cobra Kai Forever!) and attempt a disarm. I even twitched a little as my nerves fired up ready to make my move, but I thought I would let this ride since I was only going to be tactically exposed in that location for a few minutes while I bought an Iced Tea.

(Second scariest day of my life and I have the stained jeans to prove it.)

Third Incident:

I was at the grocery store like OP. (What is up with grocery stores man?) I had the back of my SUV (bug out vehicle) open and I was loading in my groceries and disaster prep supplies.

Every couple of seconds I would do a 360 scan of my surroundings. Whenever I heard a cart approaching I would stop, face around with my back to my SUV (bug out vehicle) cargo area, of course blading to keep my weapon in the best possible retention position.

I didn't look the potential perps in the eye so as not to draw attention to myself, but I did watch their hands. Eyes don't hurt you, hands do. Always watch the hands.

So as I was finishing up, I saw a man coming out with his cart. He was well dressed, clean cut but something wasn't right. He was somehow different. I just kept watching him. He saw me too. I made sure of that.

He popped his trunk and started loading in his groceries. He behavior seemed normal enough but as his car was parked across the row directly from mine I wasn't taking any chances. I just leaned back on my SUV (bug out vehicle) and watched him. Like "Yeah buddy, I'm watching you, watching me, watching you..."

Then BAM!!!! It happened. He took off his sports coat and son of a' there it was. Another gosh darn Glock. This time it looked like another G22 or G17 riding in a SERPA. A SERPA!!!!! Haha. Noob! I thought.

He kept watching me, watching him, watching me, watching him and I think he even gave me a bit of the stink eye. I didn't show my fear though as he couldn't see my actual eyeballs through my Wiley-X sunglasses.

When he finished he put his jacket in his car and then I saw a flash of gold on his belt. Holy Jay-SUS!!!! Another cop not wearing a hat and only a badge! That's the worst kind of cop to run into to. The ones who think the law doesn't apply to them and that they can hassle ya without wearing their hat.

I quickly turned around and pretended to fiddle with getting my Black Beans, Rice Bags and Prune Juice bottles perfectly situated in my SUV (bug out vehicle). After a minute or so I heard his car start and pull out.

I almost dared to take a look over my shoulder but I knew better. That was just the provocation he would be looking for to take my civil rights. It took all my willpower but I just pretended to give off submissive body language and occupy myself with the stuff in the truck. For all I knew he was radioing in to have thirty of his bro-cops swoop in on me and infringe me.

3rd scariest day of my life.

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

In all seriousness, or at least as much as I can muster...

I don't personally care if people OC. It doesn't really bother me. I live in a gun friendly / hunting friendly area now. It's not common to see day to day but it doesn't make people run screaming for the exits. (just me). It does tend to generate some looks from what I surmise are non-natives.

I live near a smallish tourist attraction so we get a fair amount of out of town folks released on temporary travel passes from various People's Republics. Sometimes they get freaked out during hunting season but the police have never shown up.

Once, during the season, a young couple came into the local pancake place and the woman let out a big kind of gasp at all us dirty, outdoorsy looking dudes in camo and orange. Some of the fellows at breakfast had shoulder holsters, some flap holsters and such.

I think she was really shocked at seeing so many real men in one concentrated location who weren't wearing hair gel or suffering from having really retarded tattoos, and it was actually a gasp of delight that shivered through her lithe body, but she had to play it off in front of her boyfriend.

Then one of the local rotund old men in flannel shirt, high water black pants and suspenders smiled at her and said "Welcome to [my state]."

Her boyfriend played the cool card and just pushed her forward in front himself, like a human shield, and smiled at everyone. We smiled back, and nodded, like we were dealing with a special needs person. They had breakfast and everyone made it out alive.

Anyway...

My only concern with it I suppose would be from a legal standpoint of having a California effect where the practice of doing it alarms so many people, or irritates enough people that they clamor to make it illegal.

That would suck. I only OC in the woods or to and fro, but I prefer to legally have the option. I don't think it would ever get outlawed here though.

The incidents I related above are true though I may have taken a liberty or two with the particulars in order to protect the identities of the OCers and Sheeple involved.

The Aristocrats! :dunno:

HKLovingIT
08-10-2012, 21:36
Who'da thunk it?

Arc Angel
08-11-2012, 06:03
So in short...it's your opinion. See, That took less space then your splenation/rationalization.

Thanks for your opinion.

:wavey:

red

:upeyes: No! Not, 'in short'. Actually, I'm a little surprised that you'd even ask the question. You read GT right? Lately there have been a spate of threads about OC'ers who've ended up getting disarmed and shot with their own exposed firearms. Why should you need me to help you with that? All it tells me is that, like most people, you only see what YOU want to see; and everything else gets ignored.

As for one man's opinion being better than another's? That's what makes the world go around, Lad. A few people's opinions will (eventually) lead them to Heaven; while most people's opinions take them (like an arrow shot) straight to Hell. This is the way of the world! A more pertinent question than, 'Is this your opinion?' would be, 'How often have you been right in the past?'

In my particular case I'm going to let you guess at the correct answer. ;)

tim12232
08-11-2012, 07:49
I simply don't support OC as a practice because it is less than sound from a (GOD I HATE THIS WORD) tactical standpoint.

HAahahaha! Im sorry but when I read that, I almost fell out of my chair!

ithaca_deerslayer
08-11-2012, 08:25
Also, the discussion of difficulty concealing in the summer came up. At first I did not tell them I too was carrying and when I told them I was, they were both impressed at the fact there was no printing or obvious sign I was carrying. I had on cargo shorts (as usual) with an LCR in my front pocket, speed strips, knife, etc. in the cargo pockets.
I would not have told them.

Sort of like underwear color discussions, nobody knows what I'm wearing except my wife :)

dpadams6
08-11-2012, 09:05
Arc Angel....Your comments are well said and accurate. Totally agree.

jeanderson
08-11-2012, 09:20
Arc Angel....Your comments are well said and accurate. Totally agree.

+1 - good one, Arc Angel!

jeanderson
08-11-2012, 09:22
HKLovingIt... great post. :rofl:

dakrat
08-11-2012, 09:54
we own guns to preserve life. to live as long as possible.

but it starts with good health... #1 killer in America is cholesterol.


Flamesuit on.

anubisgodofgods
08-11-2012, 10:58
I would love to see the look on their face when I walked up to them and say " I am here to rob this store. I saw your gun and walked up behind you as you were so focused on shopping and unaware of me behind you and removed the gun from your holster and shot you and your wife before robbing the store."

You lose your advantage when you open carry and could make yourself a target.

FireForged
08-11-2012, 11:23
I once had a discussion with a OC'r about weapon retention training. He just kinda laughed it off until I asked him to place my buddies bluegun in his holster.. I took that bluegun 6 times in 3 hours while we were helping some friends move into his condo. All he kept saying was "hey! ..I wasnt ready" and.. "nobody is going to do that".

each time I took it, I made sure he wasnt carrying anything- just to make it fair. I did wait until he was talking or otherwise distracted..there was never any lasting struggle, I just took it. He asked me what the "trick" was. I told him that there was no trick and I am just a regular old guy with no ninja skills.

I have nothing against OC as long as it legal. I would suggest that anyone who decided to carry in that manner, take some retention classes.

ithaca_deerslayer
08-11-2012, 12:43
we own guns to preserve life. to live as long as possible.

but it starts with good health... #1 killer in America is cholesterol.


Flamesuit on.

No, we choose guns to preserve freedom :)

Free to drink 64 ounce sodas and cook with whole sticks butter, if that's what we want.

Arc Angel
08-11-2012, 13:59
I once had a discussion with a OC'r about weapon retention training. He just kind Ďa laughed it off until I asked him to place my buddies blue gun in his holster. ... I took that blue gun 6 times in 3 hours while we were helping some friends move into his condo. All he kept saying was, ĎHey!í ... ĎI wasnít ready;í and, ... ĎNobody is going to do that.í

Each time I took it, I made sure he wasnít carrying anything - just to make it fair. I did wait until he was talking or otherwise distracted. ... There was never any lasting struggle, I just took it. He asked me what the, Ďtrickí was. I told him that there was no trick; and I am just a regular old guy with no ninja skills.

I have nothing against OC as long as it legal. I would suggest that anyone who decided to carry in that manner, take some retention classes.

:thumbsup: Precisely! (And thatís only half of what might go wrong!) I have nothing against open carry, per se, either. In fact on rare occasions, like when I step out of my vehicle to pump gas, my belt load might be out in the open for all the world to see.

Arc Angel .... Your comments are well said and accurate. Totally agree.

+1 - good one, Arc Angel!

:) Thanks, guys! Like I said: I have nothing against open carry, either. At least not when itís both appropriate and doesnít unduly alarm or upset, Ďthe sheepleí. (Letís face it: ĎSheepleí are still people, too; AND they outnumber us, gunmen, by a factor of better than twenty to one - Statistics any politician or newscaster has got 'a love!) As mature adult gunmen WE HAVE TO CONSIDER the effect our personal presence and social behavior has on our neighbors. Thatís really all Iím saying.

OPEN CARRY, AS WELL INTENDED AS IT MIGHT BE, HAS THE POTENTIAL TO BACKFIRE IN OUR FACES!

Then, what are we going to do? All start chanting, ĎFrom my cold dead hands!í ĎFrom my cold dead hands!í ???? :freak:

QUESTION: Has anyone ever wondered what these open carry people would do IF they knew themselves to be in a genuinely hostile environment? Personally, I bet they'd cover up like a, 'high school virgin at a nudist colony'. :supergrin: It's one thing to, 'get your rocks off' by frightening sheeple in a shopping mall on a Saturday afternoon. It's quite another thing to, 'demonstrate' for your Second Amendment Rights outside a bar in Pittsburgh at 10:00 o'clock at night.

(Which should tell any open-minded investigator that these open carry fanatics actually DO KNOW BETTER! They just want to attract unwarranted (and frightened) attention to themselves; and they don't give a damn about how much their antisocial gun behaviors might upset other people.)

Chris Chris
08-11-2012, 14:24
I once had a discussion with a OC'r about weapon retention training. He just kinda laughed it off until I asked him to place my buddies bluegun in his holster.. I took that bluegun 6 times in 3 hours while we were helping some friends move into his condo. All he kept saying was "hey! ..I wasnt ready" and.. "nobody is going to do that".

each time I took it, I made sure he wasnt carrying anything- just to make it fair. I did wait until he was talking or otherwise distracted..there was never any lasting struggle, I just took it. He asked me what the "trick" was. I told him that there was no trick and I am just a regular old guy with no ninja skills.

I have nothing against OC as long as it legal. I would suggest that anyone who decided to carry in that manner, take some retention classes.

Every bed-wetting liberal politician immediately calls for some form of new 'gun control laws' whenever some nut job goes on a shooting spree, and the MSM plays lap dog to him.

Stop and think what the response would be if some OCer got their gun snatched... got shot with it... and the snatcher then went on to shoot other people? It hasn't happened yet that I'm aware of, but there are enough nut jobs out there that it is a possibility.... especially in a Flash Mob scenario.

OC can be like waving a red flag at some of societies 'looser canons'. If that's the only legal option to carry, OK, I have to support it. However, if CC is an option it is the wise choice.

Why make yourself a potential target... or give up a tactical advantage? I wonder how many OCers who have a CC option have ever seen an elephant?

Stevekozak
08-11-2012, 15:02
No, we choose guns to preserve freedom :)

Free to drink 64 ounce sodas and cook with whole sticks butter, if that's what we want.
THIS!!! :wavey:

Arc Angel
08-11-2012, 15:05
Every bed-wetting liberal politician immediately calls for some form of new 'gun control laws' whenever some nut job goes on a shooting spree, and the MSM plays lap dog to him.

Stop and think what the response would be if some OCer got their gun snatched... got shot with it... and the snatcher then went on to shoot other people? It hasn't happened yet that I'm aware of, but there are enough nut jobs out there that it is a possibility .... especially in a Flash Mob scenario.

OC can be like waving a red flag at some of societies 'looser canons'. If that's the only legal option to carry, OK, I have to support it. However, if CC is an option it is the wise choice.

Why make yourself a potential target... or give up a tactical advantage? I wonder how many OCers who have a CC option have ever seen an elephant?

Oh, yes it has! :shocked:

Several different times, in fact. Here's one of them:

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1386029

'Elephant'? How about a real honest-to-goodness pistol gunfight! (Exactly zero I'll bet!) ;)

Chris Chris
08-11-2012, 15:28
Oh, yes it has! :shocked:

Several different times, in fact. Here's one of them:

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1386029

'Elephant'? How about a real honest-to-goodness pistol gunfight! (Exactly zero I'll bet!) ;)

Thanks for the link. I was not aware of that. It merely reinforces my opinion on OC.

As for 'elephant'. Back in my day the term "He's seen the elephant" denoted one who had been involved in a lethal force incident - and won. I thought some of the older LEOs/Military would have understood that. But, it goes to show that times and venacular change. I guess I am getting old.... but 'back when' I saw a whole herd of elephants... and don't want to see any more.

jdavionic
08-11-2012, 16:32
By which you mean, "oblivious to their surroundings and that a stranger has zeroed in on them and their weapons"?

Yeah, a bit, though it's hard to tell from a single snapshot.

Yep, you often read about an armed couple being targeted.:upeyes:

Has there been one such event where a couple OC'ing has been the victim of a gun grab?

With that said, I think it is wise to have a good retention holster and training. I have cautioned my Dad against OC'ing. He's in his upper 70s. While I support his right to OC, I encourage him not to do so.

Arc Angel
08-11-2012, 16:36
...... As for 'elephant'. Back in my day the term "He's seen the elephant" denoted one who had been involved in a lethal force incident - and won. I thought some of the older LEOs/Military would have understood that. But, it goes to show that times and venacular change. I guess I am getting old.... but 'back when' I saw a whole herd of elephants... and don't want to see any more.

Actually, I knew what you meant. (I'm an old timer, too.) :supergrin:

I only called it out for the youngsters. Another way to, euphemistically, say the same thing is, 'been to the well' - Remember! ;)

Bruce M
08-11-2012, 18:45
Sometimes it is not difficult at all to determine who has developed excellent handgun retention skills and who has not.

jdavionic
08-11-2012, 18:50
Quoted post deleted

It does happen. However I don't ever recall reading where a couple OC'ing has been targeted for a gun grab...ever.

Individuals are targeted...including cops. No matter how tough you think you are (and not saying you are not), there is someone out there that thinks they are tougher...and they may be.

To me, that doesn't mean you should not OC. If it's legal where you are and you want to, have at it. If you want to do so responsibly, you should understand that there are different risks associated with OC'ing versus CC'ing. I do both. You can either ignore the risks, do something to help mitigate the risks, or decide the risks outweigh the benefits for you and choose to CC instead. I'd love to think it's a free country that allows people to make these choices on their own and accept responsibility for their own decisions.

dpadams6
08-11-2012, 18:52
Quoted post deleted

Many armed robberies are committed by 2, sometimes more, males. Or, worse yet, they see you open carrying and decide to take you out first and shoot you in the back. I think your chances would be WAY HIGHER if bad guy did not know you were carrying. Can you say "ELEMENT OF SUPRISE "

jdavionic
08-11-2012, 18:59
Many armed robberies are committed by 2, sometimes more, males. Or, worse yet, they see you open carrying and decide to take you out first and shoot you in the back. I think your chances would be WAY HIGHER if bad guy did not know you were carrying. Can you say "ELEMENT OF SUPRISE "

Perhaps, but not always -
http://www.examiner.com/article/open-carry-deters-armed-robbery-kennesaw

RussP
08-11-2012, 19:00
Actually, I'm a little surprised that you'd even ask the question. You read GT right? Lately there have been a spate of threads about OC'ers who've ended up getting disarmed and shot with their own exposed firearms. Why should you need me to help you with that? All it tells me is that, like most people, you only see what YOU want to see; and everything else gets ignored....Well, now, Arc Angel, you say there's been a "spate" of threads about OCers shot with their own guns. I recall just one, in Richmond, Virginia, at the BP station I've been to many times. What other threads are in your "spate"?

Thanks...

Fanner50
08-11-2012, 23:06
I hope they are going for the non-fat butter. :supergrin:

John Rambo
08-11-2012, 23:55
I bet they went home and talked about their encounter all night, I bet they were downright giddy about the guy who talked to them in the butter aisle! :rofl:

Berto
08-12-2012, 00:10
The guy's fixated on the I Can't Believe it's Not Butter and the chick is spying the Blue Bonnet.
My money's on the Blue Bonnet.

NEOH212
08-12-2012, 00:29
Thoughts?

1. The guy needs a hair cut.

2. The guy needs to pull his pants up and get a better belt.

3. Guernsey needs a tread mill.

4. Both need a HK.

Otherwise, :thumbsup:

NEOH212
08-12-2012, 00:32
Seriously, If your gonna open carry, don't look like a slob.

:steamed:

Arc Angel
08-12-2012, 01:16
Well, now, Arc Angel, you say there's been a "spate" of threads about OCers shot with their own guns. I recall just one, in Richmond, Virginia, at the BP station I've been to many times. What other threads are in your "spate"?

Thanks...

I'm thinking of the woman who was attacked at a highway rest stop and got shot with her own gun; and an incident near where I used to live in New Jersey in which someone grabbed an off-duty detective's pistol, and shot him with it.

Don't make me look this stuff up. It's your forum; and I'm sure you can find it. That's NOT really the point, though; is it. If you and your buddies want to goof with your guns and the neighbors, fine. I don't think any one man on a internet gun forum is going to stop this open carry stupidity. It's the open carriers, themselves, who will eventually do that for, both, themselves and all of the rest of us who: know better, behave better in public, and remain unable to persuade any of these, 'foolish children' to behave otherwise.

I'm surprised you, so often, fail to get it, Russ. Maybe the, 'light bulb' will come on after we, all, get most of our guns taken away, and our constructive rights-of-use even more severely abridged than they are now. Then I'll have the satisfaction of being able to say, 'I warned you!'; and you and, 'the boys' will have to start practicing more with your bows and arrows, and slingshots.

Don't think any of this could happen? Well, right now, we've got a political administration in office that is working very very hard to force constructive national disarmament to take place. You and, 'the boys' might think that you're demonstrating for everybody's Second Amendment rights; but, the people who are running this country certainly know better; and the media, 'spinmeisters' are able to easily turn these antisocial gun behaviors against all of us. ....... So, 'Why' help events along by doing anything to help force the issue?

Maybe you haven't noticed; but our side isn't winning - We're losing more and more ground everyday. It was just a stroke of dumb luck for operation, 'Fast and Furious' to have been exposed and backfire the way it did; but, each new public massacre continues to push events closer and closer to the edge. Again, 'Why' help things along? The way you and, 'the boys' see things, and the way the majority of the general public sees things - AND IS CONSTANTLY PERSUADED TO SEE THINGS - are not the same thing.

You saw what happened in and around New Orleans during Hurricane Katrina. People's Second Amendment Rights were, literally, trampled upon - Sometimes inside their own homes! (Do I need to look these events up for you, too?) We're not winning; instead, we're, 'skating along the edge'. One of the things we, gunmen, need to do in order to gain political ground is to set good, benevolent and non-threatening public examples. Exposing carry pieces in supermarkets, movie theaters, and shopping malls is NOT good, benevolent, non-threatening public behavior; AND if you fail to realize it, well among other broadcasting giants: ABC, CBS, and NBC certainly do not.

THAT is the point!

Sendarr
08-12-2012, 02:59
Arch, your other two examples of OC'ers being shot with their own guns don't seem to qualify. Correct me if i'm wrong, but the woman shot in the rest stop wasn't OC'ing and the other was a cop. Are you saying cops should CC also? I don't really think a police officer falls into the same category of an OC'er.

Also, what's your deal with the constant use of the noun "gunmen"? The only time you hear that word is on the news, in a negative fashion.

As far as the social etiquette of OC, who freakin' cares? Let me ask you this, which group do you think numbers more? Gun owners or homosexuals? I don't care to see two guys making out in front of the family in the food court, but it's their right to do so. Should they not be allowed because others don't want to see it? Why should OC'ers be browbeaten into stopping just because it makes others uncomfortable? Obese people in clothes that are clearly too small for them offend me visually also, should they be made to wear a moo-moo? I imagine your christian faith offends some people, should you "conceal" that as well? So as not to make anyone around you uncomfortable? If someone chooses not to OC for tactical reasons or whatever reason they like, fine,that's their choice . Rather than ridicule someone for their choice in carry option for protection, why not "live and let live" for a fellow gun owner, since you choose not to support them. Maybe everyone should adopt your carry method, caliber, handgun model, holster, belt, etc? The problem is people like youself are so worried that someone else excersizing their own rights might end up costing you your own. That's pathetic IMHO. I've said it before, anti-gunners walk in lock-step. Gun owners on the other hand are too busy arguing amongst themselves over stupid crap. OC vs CC, 9mm vs .45, piston vs DI, those that love the NRA and those that complain about too much junk mail. I could go on and on. It's sickening really.:steamed:

I agree that anyone who choses to OC "should" learn some retention and purchase the appropriate holster. However, I don't agree with "making" them do so. Forcing anyone to do anything starts us on a slippery slope, but that's a topic for another day in which I could go on awhile.

Bruce M
08-12-2012, 04:16
I am not convinced that we are on the verge of loosing lots of ground regarding Second Amendment rights. I contend that more people can legally carry concealed in more places than anytime in the last half century and I believe that more people own more guns than in a long time also. I do suspect that a big part of that revolves around economic gains made by our middle class over the last several decades.

There are some places where openly carrying handguns barely raises an eyebrow, either because it has been allowed and accepted for a while (i.e. Arizona) or because it is a rural area. On the other hand, we only need to look to California for an example of the potential results of "activism" open carrying.

Arc Angel
08-12-2012, 05:00
Arch, your other two examples of OC'ers being shot with their own guns don't seem to qualify. Correct me if i'm wrong, but the woman shot in the rest stop wasn't OC'ing and the other was a cop. Are you saying cops should CC also? I don't really think a police officer falls into the same category of an OC'er.

Also, what's your deal with the constant use of the noun "gunmen"? The only time you hear that word is on the news, in a negative fashion.

As far as the social etiquette of OC, who freakin' cares? Let me ask you this, which group do you think numbers more? Gun owners or homosexuals? I don't care to see two guys making out in front of the family in the food court, but it's their right to do so. Should they not be allowed because others don't want to see it? Why should OC'ers be browbeaten into stopping just because it makes others uncomfortable? Obese people in clothes that are clearly too small for them offend me visually also, should they be made to wear a moo-moo? I imagine your christian faith offends some people, should you "conceal" that as well? So as not to make anyone around you uncomfortable? If someone chooses not to OC for tactical reasons or whatever reason they like, fine,that's their choice . Rather than ridicule someone for their choice in carry option for protection, why not "live and let live" for a fellow gun owner, since you choose not to support them. Maybe everyone should adopt your carry method, caliber, handgun model, holster, belt, etc? The problem is people like youself are so worried that someone else excersizing their own rights might end up costing you your own. That's pathetic IMHO. I've said it before, anti-gunners walk in lock-step. Gun owners on the other hand are too busy arguing amongst themselves over stupid crap. OC vs CC, 9mm vs .45, piston vs DI, those that love the NRA and those that complain about too much junk mail. I could go on and on. It's sickening really.:steamed:

I agree that anyone who choses to OC "should" learn some retention and purchase the appropriate holster. However, I don't agree with "making" them do so. Forcing anyone to do anything starts us on a slippery slope, but that's a topic for another day in which I could go on awhile.

Sendarr, no offense. I mean, after all, I don't even know you; but (BUT) I've got to say that your logic escapes me? Your thinking, and the examples you use, are full of errors in spelling and syntax, as well as loaded with irrelevant and illogical non-sequiturs. (You seem to have thrown a little internet hissy fit, there, buddy!) You complain about me taking myself too seriously; and, then, you go and do exactly the same thing yourself!

How is it that you fail to appreciate that an exposed and readily available gun is just that - An exposed and readily available gun? I don't care about, and fail to see the relevance, in events like: homosexuals kissing, fat people dressing funny, or women breastfeeding in public; AND I am certain that my Christian faith offends many of the, 'men of the last days'. Christ has already forewarned me about people like you; e.g. 'The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord. It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household.'

This scripture is closely followed by, 'Fear them not, therefore: For there is nothing covered that shall not be revealed; or hid, that shall not be known.' This will, no doubt, surprise you; but I’m going to suggest that you are far too wrapped up in yourself and your own point-of-view. (NOT, in my experience, unusual for the open carry crowd.) What I care about is playing down, and not unnecessarily alarming the general public (Sheeple, if you prefer.) with anymore unpopular, 'gun events'. Somebody needs to tell people like you that you’re doing far more harm than good; and, because I’m neither afraid of you, your kind, nor easily cowered and vulnerable to the sort of attacks you guys always resort to on the Internet, I’m glad to do it. I mean, ‘Why not’? I’m, also, going to be one of the gunmen who stands to suffer from your remarkable social stupidity!

By the way, you say that you are offended by being called a gunman. As for myself? I’m proud of the fact! I’m a damned good gunman; and there’s little you or your kind can do about that. I’m not going to shut up because my opinions prove to be inconvenient, or point out the fallacies behind your self-serving and introverted logic; nor will I be silent because you and your kind want me to. I’ve been on the Internet for almost a decade now; and I’ve been in plenty of arguments and read some really screwed up logic and scurrilous remarks before; but, your above post sets some new kind of record. Too bad it isn’t better written! :supergrin:

Why do I point this out? Because how a man writes is indicative of how he thinks; and, Sendarr, you don’t write well - Angry, but not well! ;) By the way, I've had the courtesy to write your screen name correctly. You should have been as courteous with me. One last thought: Open carry versus concealed carry is only, ‘stupid crap’ IN YOUR MIND and nowhere else. I trust we understand each other better now? You have a nice day. :)

Monotonous ONE
08-12-2012, 05:00
id have been pretty weirded out by some weirdo taking a picture of me in the grocery store and then asking if he could post it online.

RussP
08-12-2012, 06:57
I'm thinking of the woman who was attacked at a highway rest stop and got shot with her own gun;That was an interesting thread, Woman attacked and shot with her own gun (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1412675), but the incident does not meet the criteria set by your comment:
about OC'ers


getting disarmed


shot with their own exposed firearms.
As a matter of fact, you were very active in that thread, however, not once did you mention "open carry" as being the cause for, or even a contributing factor to her being wounded.

Do you have new information not reported previously that makes you now believe she was open carrying?

I will say, though, that your posts in that thread are most informative about...well, anyone interested can go to the link above.

RussP
08-12-2012, 07:20
I'm thinking of ...an incident near where I used to live in New Jersey in which someone grabbed an off-duty detective's pistol, and shot him with it.Are you talking about the NYPD detective shot in Manalapan? Here's one news report, Off-duty NYPD officer shot during fight with gal palís estranged husband (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/off-duty-nypd-officer-shot-fight-gal-pal-estranged-husband-article-1.1134325).

Again, where are the elements of your comment:
about OC'ers


getting disarmed


shot with their own exposed firearms.


And again, the only known incident where a person open carrying was targeted, their weapon taken and they were shot with their weapon was the one in Richmond, Virginia.

Now, I will agree that there have been a spate of threads about that one incident on many firearm, open carry and RTKBA forums.

I will tell you that knowing the area where it occurred as well as I do, and I know it very well, it is not one where I would open carry at that time of day, 8:15 PM, three hours after sunset.

:cool:

ashecht
08-12-2012, 07:24
I OC in WW on occasion and never get a second glance. Not even from leos shopping there. One has ecen stopped me to ask me about my G30 finish and my holster

ithaca_deerslayer
08-12-2012, 07:45
Sendarr, don't get too comfy with your new record. Somebody else is bound to take your title in the next thread.

I support the right to open carry. Hard to imagine it being done here in NY. The public would cry up against it and demand it become a felony crime.

RussP
08-12-2012, 08:55
Don't make me look this stuff up.Why not? You made a statement. Using one definition of the word 'spate', you said there have been a spate, "a large number of similar things or events appearing or occurring in quick succession: "a spate of attacks on travelers open carriers where their exposed firearms were taken away and used to shoot them."

Having only heard of one such attack, and I do follow those sort of things, I asked you to provider us with the other events in the "spate".It's your forum; and I'm sure you can find it.No, CI belongs to everyone participating, not just me, but yes, I can, did, and shall (with help from others here and on other forums) continue to find "it".

RussP
08-12-2012, 09:04
That's NOT really the point, though; is it. If you and your buddies want to goof with your guns and the neighbors, fine.Me and my buddies, what group of buddies would that be?

Like with your earlier examples, I do believe you are erroneously associating me with some undefined group.

How about you define that group.

Thanks...

concretefuzzynuts
08-12-2012, 09:46
id have been pretty weirded out by some weirdo taking a picture of me in the grocery store and then asking if he could post it online.

I am not "some weirdo". I am a particular type of weirdo , sir.

jeanderson
08-12-2012, 09:51
Well, right now, we've got a political administration in office that is working very very hard to force constructive national disarmament to take place. You and, 'the boys' might think that you're demonstrating for everybody's Second Amendment rights; but, the people who are running this country certainly know better; and the media, 'spinmeisters' are able to easily turn these antisocial gun behaviors against all of us. ....... So, 'Why' help events along by doing anything to help force the issue?

Agree 100%! These are dangerous times for our republic. Make absolutely no mistake - we are 1 executive order and a couple more liberal supreme court justices away from losing our right to carry. Open or concealed.

We've won the right to CCW in most states. While I and most on GT have no problem with it, it doesn't help in the court of public opinion when someone open carries. Yes, it's your right. But as Arc Angel said, we are "skating right along the edge" and in general, this does not help.

RussP
08-12-2012, 10:19
I don't think any one man on a internet gun forum is going to stop this open carry stupidity. It's the open carriers, themselves, who will eventually do that for, both, themselves and all of the rest of us who: know better, behave better in public, and remain unable to persuade any of these, 'foolish children' to behave otherwise.How many people open carry, Arc Angel? opencarry.org has 29,750 members as of today at 11:11 AM. Wouldn't you agree most all members there might open carry to one degree or another?

What percentage of the total open carry population would that be?

What percentage of the total population who carry? That would be about 6,000,000 to 8,000,000 people (depends on the study you read) concealed carry license/permit holders.

Of course, you must add to any OC number those open carrying because they are not old enough to get a permit. Do you consider them 'foolish children', too?

Where do you get the information that all OCers are 'foolish children? Is your opinion based on the few open carriers that are in the news? Is it from posts made on the internet by the attention seekers? Is it from the very few who have normally open carried for years and unfortunately find themselves confronted by an ignorant individual who wants to make something out of "seeing a gun?"

If those are your resources, those few, then you need to get out more. I have a suggestion. Get together with an open carry group in your area. Get to know them, them, the real people, the ones you do not read about in the news or on the internet.

MasterShake
08-12-2012, 10:27
id have been pretty weirded out by some weirdo taking a picture of me in the grocery store and then asking if he could post it online.
Come on, 2 people walking around with guns openly on their hips? They can't be shocked they got some attention. :dunno:

MasterShake
08-12-2012, 10:32
I used to OC before I could get my CCW and I got demonized or approached all the time. I got used to it quick, I'm sure these people were expecting/ready for it

Chris Chris
08-12-2012, 10:40
All arguements for or against OC aside... and looking at it strictly as to how they are protrayed in the MSM... why is it that virtually every picture of a OCer that winds up in print or video shows a sloppily dressed, overweight, poorly groomed person? Has anyone ever seen a slender, well-groomed person in crisp slacks and a pressed shirt pictured OCing? I haven't.

It's the image the MSM wish to portray, and many OCers make it far too easy for them. Those same people could tuck a tee-shirt over their gun... be just as well armed... and avoid giving the press free bananas to toss to the anti-gun monkeys.

jeanderson
08-12-2012, 10:52
It's the image the MSM wish to portray, and many OCers make it far too easy for them. Those same people could tuck a tee-shirt over their gun... be just as well armed... and avoid giving the press free bananas to toss to the anti-gun monkeys.

:thumbsup: Precisely!

RussP
08-12-2012, 10:58
I'm surprised you, so often, fail to get it, Russ. Maybe the, 'light bulb' will come on after we, all, get most of our guns taken away, and our constructive rights-of-use even more severely abridged than they are now. Then I'll have the satisfaction of being able to say, 'I warned you!'; and you and, 'the boys' will have to start practicing more with your bows and arrows, and slingshots.What ever brings you to believe I do not get it?

Here is what you say:Like I said: I have nothing against open carry, either. At least not when itís both appropriate and doesnít unduly alarm or upset...Here is what I say:Open carry is not for everyone, everyone should not open carry, and some definitely should never open carry.

Should you chose to open carry, do so only when and where appropriate, understanding that the when and the where will differ from person to person based on many, many variables. What is good and right for one person may be deadly wrong for you. Open carry is just one more choice, one more decision we who carry must make once we accept the personal responsibility for our own self defense and the defense of those around us.

It is not a decision to be taken lightly. If you do not understand, and/or are not willing to accept the consequences of open carry, do not do it.That's it in an abbreviated form.

Arc Angel, are you for any form of gun control? No? Then why do you favor controlling, mandating how others may carry?

Bruce M
08-12-2012, 11:26
...

I will tell you that knowing the area where it occurred as well as I do, and I know it very well, it is not one where I would open carry at that time of day, 8:15 PM, three hours after sunset.

:cool:

Why is that, please?

RussP
08-12-2012, 11:28
You and, 'the boys' might think ...

...The way you and, 'the boys' see things,...There you are with these imaginary "boys" with whom you have grouped me.You saw what happened in and around New Orleans during Hurricane Katrina. People's Second Amendment Rights were, literally, trampled upon - Sometimes inside their own homes! (Do I need to look these events up for you, too?)In this case, not yet.One of the things we, gunmen...Right here is where you join the most radical of the open carriers in inciting others. The word, "gunmen", using gunman to describe yourself, do you do that to stand out from others? Do you do that to show you are superior?

You want OCers to act normal, how about you? Doesn't that rule apply to you?

Isn't your goal to be anonymous to the sheeple?

RussP
08-12-2012, 11:51
...

I will tell you that knowing the area where it occurred as well as I do, and I know it very well, it is not one where I would open carry at that time of day, 8:15 PM, three hours after sunset.

:cool:Why is that, please?First, I doubt I would stop there to start with. It is among the "where" places I would avoid from sunset to after sunrise. It has been a rough part of Richmond from the early '60's. Even that early there were gang elements present, not as organized then as now, but there. Thugs roam(ed) the area looking for targets. Richmond PD chose the area for their 2nd Precinct Station. Still, this happened 1/3 of a mile from the station.

So, history shows bad guys are prevalent in the area. History shows bad guys commit crimes in the area, more so between dusk and dawn. Friends on RPD and neighboring Chesterfield PD told me to avoid the area. My personal choice, my decision, is to not open carry in that area during the time from just before sunset to just after sunrise.

MasterShake
08-12-2012, 12:05
History shows bad guys commit crimes in the area, more so between dusk and dawn.
This. There's parts around here that aren't the greatest to hang around during the day, but are down right stupid to hang around past 7pm.

Will-21
08-12-2012, 12:22
I OC when visiting my kids who attend UNLV. I do so because my Florida CCW is not recognized by King Harry and his crew. Nobody has ever said anything to me about it or given me serious looks. Of course once they do see my Springfield Armory OD & Black LW Champion 2 things happen:

1) they move out of my 18" personal space
2) sometimes comment how pretty she is.

3rdgen40
08-12-2012, 13:05
Looks like dudes sleeve is gonna snag on the butt of his gun if he tries to draw.

dpadams6
08-12-2012, 14:23
First, I doubt I would stop there to start with. It is among the "where" places I would avoid from sunset to after sunrise. It has been a rough part of Richmond from the early '60's. Even that early there were gang elements present, not as organized then as now, but there. Thugs roam(ed) the area looking for targets. Richmond PD chose the area for their 2nd Precinct Station. Still, this happened 1/3 of a mile from the station.

So, history shows bad guys are prevalent in the area. History shows bad guys commit crimes in the area, more so between dusk and dawn. Friends on RPD and neighboring Chesterfield PD told me to avoid the area. My personal choice, my decision, is to not open carry in that area during the time from just before sunset to just after sunrise.

And "bad guys" can walk up behind you in a not so bad area and try to take ur exposed gun or worse yet, shoot you in back, before you even know it. What is the difference as far as the area? Its sometimes hard to distinguish who is good/bad.

cowboy1964
08-12-2012, 14:33
Happen to notice if their holsters had any kind of active retention? No way in hell I would OC without some kind of retention.

Chris Chris
08-12-2012, 14:35
And "bad guys" can walk up behind you in a not so bad area and try to take ur exposed gun or worse yet, shoot you in back, before you even know it. What is the difference as far as the area? Its sometimes hard to distinguish who is good/bad.

This did raise a question in my mind. If someone has a CCW permit, and if OC is also legally authorized, what would prompt someone to carry OC?

I note that it has been mentioned on this thread by one person that they would not OC in a certain area after dark... but does that mean they would CC there? Or, do they have the CC option.

If so, what is their motivation to OC anywhere when CC is a legal option for them? And, why would they OC in one place/time, but not in a different place/time?

Just curious, and no disrespect intended to anyone.

concretefuzzynuts
08-12-2012, 14:48
Happen to notice if their holsters had any kind of active retention? No way in hell I would OC without some kind of retention.

I think hers was. I was trying to be friendly but didn't want to go much further than I already had.

I have gotten into conversations with people I've seen carrying in the past and ALL of them were friendly but I try to keep the conversation light.

RussP
08-12-2012, 15:06
And "bad guys" can walk up behind you in a not so bad area and try to take ur exposed gun or worse yet, shoot you in back, before you even know it. What is the difference as far as the area? Its sometimes hard to distinguish who is good/bad.The question put to me was about a very specific location. I responded to that question.

To continue with what I started in Post #89...Always remember that the characteristics of "where" you open carry can and do change with time. The most rapid changes come with the mobility of the criminal elements. When targets stop coming into their areas, they go looking for new territory. Do not expect what is safe one day, today. to still be safe tomorrow. The same holds true for the "when", it can change just as quickly.

This leads us to situational awareness. If you choose to open carry, you need eyes in the back of your head, all the time you are in public, anywhere in public.Again, that's the short version.

You're a police officer. You know the area where you operate. You know the good, the bad and the real ugly. It's your job. It let's you go home safe after every shift.

You use your resources to learn who's doing what to whom where and when. I believe in doing the same. I take nothing for granted. I counsel others who carry to do the same.

Bruce M
08-12-2012, 15:30
First, I doubt I would stop there to start with. It is among the "where" places I would avoid from sunset to after sunrise. It has been a rough part of Richmond from the early '60's. Even that early there were gang elements present, not as organized then as now, but there. Thugs roam(ed) the area looking for targets. Richmond PD chose the area for their 2nd Precinct Station. Still, this happened 1/3 of a mile from the station.

So, history shows bad guys are prevalent in the area. History shows bad guys commit crimes in the area, more so between dusk and dawn. Friends on RPD and neighboring Chesterfield PD told me to avoid the area. My personal choice, my decision, is to not open carry in that area during the time from just before sunset to just after sunrise.


Thanks - I suspected the answer would be something similar. It gets back to the whole "carry openly when and where appropriate" concept which of course draws from the "your openly carried handgun is not a magic talisman of guaranteed protection" concept. Perhaps a corollary to that is the concept that there are certain places at where the police will only respond with multiple officers even if it is a routine report only type call.

And therein lies one of the enigmas of openly carrying a gun: some places at where it might be most appropriate it is also least appropriate.

Chris Chris
08-12-2012, 16:04
Thanks - I suspected the answer would be something similar. It gets back to the whole "carry openly when and where appropriate" concept which of course draws from the "your openly carried handgun is not a magic talisman of guaranteed protection" concept. Perhaps a corollary to that is the concept that there are certain places at where the police will only respond with multiple officers even if it is a routine report only type call.

And therein lies one of the enigmas of openly carrying a gun: some places at where it might be most appropriate it is also least appropriate.

That enigma is at the root of my question.

If CC and OC is legally available to the individual, why does one chose to OC at certain times & places, but not at others... where they then choose to CC?

Why is it "appropriate" to OC one place, but not another? If CC is available, why not do that all the time and avoid the whole thing?

I'm trying to understand the mindset here. A handgun holstered openly on the hip garners attention. But, in some places they don't want the attention, and in other places they do. It's confusing to me, when CC avoids all of that and you're still just as well armed.

concretefuzzynuts
08-12-2012, 16:08
Thanks - I suspected the answer would be something similar. It gets back to the whole "carry openly when and where appropriate" concept which of course draws from the "your openly carried handgun is not a magic talisman of guaranteed protection" concept. Perhaps a corollary to that is the concept that there are certain places at where the police will only respond with multiple officers even if it is a routine report only type call.

And therein lies one of the enigmas of openly carrying a gun: some places at where it might be most appropriate it is also least appropriate.

You can make personal judgements on where you could carry open and when you think it would be ok or safe to.

The true variable, out of our control or judgement, are the people who might be where we think it's "safe" or where we think it's not.

Again I carry concealed but it's not up to me to tell anyone not to.

bear62
08-12-2012, 16:22
In western Colorado I see open carry on a regular basis......... especially when I look in the mirror.......:rofl::rofl:

Bruce M
08-12-2012, 16:30
That enigma is at the root of my question.

If CC and OC is legally available to the individual, why does one chose to OC at certain times & places, but not at others... where they then choose to CC?

Why is it "appropriate" to OC one place, but not another? If CC is available, why not do that all the time and avoid the whole thing?

I'm trying to understand the mindset here. A handgun holstered openly on the hip garners attention. But, in some places they don't want the attention, and in other places they do. It's confusing to me, when CC avoids all of that and you're still just as well armed.

I'm in Florida, too. I presume you know that open carrying of a handgun is fairly limited here. I can certainly understand why someone might elect to carry a handgun openly if they were fishing here; while I am far from an expert on fishing from what little I know and have seen it seems like there is a potential for gators at where one fishes. (I am also not certain how well a handgun might be to deal with an angry alligator, but I will leave that for a different thread.)

Notwithstanding the law, I did see a fair amount of open carrying of handguns (and some long guns) in the immediate aftermath of Hurricane Andrew. My sense is is that was meant as a (not so) subtle message to some who were not of specific neighborhoods that even though the residents did not have electricity (or roofs, or in some cases the same number of walls as they had previously) that they were still very much concerned with their neighborhood.

But to answer your question, well, I cannot. I can guess that to some, at least, there may be a feeling that in an area with a relatively low potential for crime, the openly carried gun might be a potential deterent, but not in other higher crime areas. But that is merely a guess.

diamondd2
08-12-2012, 16:45
As much as most people are againts open carry, you have to admit, it does open peoples eyes and sparks curiosity.

RussP
08-12-2012, 19:57
Thanks - I suspected the answer would be something similar. It gets back to the whole "carry openly when and where appropriate" concept which of course draws from the "your openly carried handgun is not a magic talisman of guaranteed protection" concept. Perhaps a corollary to that is the concept that there are certain places at where the police will only respond with multiple officers even if it is a routine report only type call.

And therein lies one of the enigmas of openly carrying a gun: some places at where it might be most appropriate it is also least appropriate.Avoidance is a guiding principal for self defense. Do not voluntarily put yourself into situations where you'll encounter conflict.


Yes, they exist, "the enigmas of openly carrying a gun: some places at where it might be most appropriate it is also least appropriate."

I don't believe the choice is all that difficult when it is a self defense decision.

HOWEVER, as concretefuzzynuts said,Their open carry is more than just for self defense. There is also an element of a cultural statement in there openly carrying, not to mention an obviously political one. It is about individual rights and freedom.

The mindset is: It is might right, so I will do it to maintain my right.

Also, the discussion of difficulty concealing in the summer came up.When you let making cultural statements, political statements, making a statement about your Right to carry influence where and when you carry, even when it goes against self defense wisdom, that is wrong, BUT, it is your choice, the consequences belong to you.

I have challenged OCers who say they carry all the time, every where legal. Bottom line is they usually admit to avoiding places where they may find real danger, real threats to their well being. They do their OCing when and where it is appropriate...for them.

There is not one cookie cutter approach to carrying. You do what is good and right, and safe, for you.

RussP
08-12-2012, 20:37
I note that it has been mentioned on this thread by one person that they would not OC in a certain area after dark... but does that mean they would CC there? Or, do they have the CC option.

If so, what is their motivation to OC anywhere when CC is a legal option for them? And, why would they OC in one place/time, but not in a different place/time?

Just curious, and no disrespect intended to anyone.If CC and OC is legally available to the individual, why does one chose to OC at certain times & places, but not at others... where they then choose to CC?

Why is it "appropriate" to OC one place, but not another? If CC is available, why not do that all the time and avoid the whole thing?

I'm trying to understand the mindset here. A handgun holstered openly on the hip garners attention. But, in some places they don't want the attention, and in other places they do. It's confusing to me, when CC avoids all of that and you're still just as well armed.To whom are you addressing your questions?

redbaron007
08-13-2012, 08:55
Avoidance is a guiding principal for self defense. Do not voluntarily put yourself into situations where you'll encounter conflict.

...snip...


HOWEVER, as concretefuzzynuts said,When you let making cultural statements, political statements, making a statement about your Right to carry influence where and when you carry, even when it goes against self defense wisdom, that is wrong, BUT, it is your choice, the consequences belong to you.

I have challenged OCers who say they carry all the time, every where legal. Bottom line is they usually admit to avoiding places where they may find real danger, real threats to their well being. They do their OCing when and where it is appropriate...for them.

There is not one cookie cutter approach to carrying. You do what is good and right, and safe, for you.

RussP...I picture you as a wise ol'man sitting next to Father-Time....but with a shorter beard! :supergrin:

:wavey:

red

RussP
08-13-2012, 09:04
RussP...I picture you as a wise ol'man sitting next to Father-Time....but with a shorter beard! :supergrin:

:wavey:

redYes, just as white, but much, much, much shorter. Dragoon44 is younger than I. :cool:

redbaron007
08-13-2012, 09:32
Yes, just as white, but much, much, much shorter. Dragoon44 is younger than I. :cool:

Interesting....I figured you two were really close! :rofl:

:wavey:

red

Stevekozak
08-13-2012, 09:42
That was an interesting thread, Woman attacked and shot with her own gun (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1412675), but the incident does not meet the criteria set by your comment:As a matter of fact, you were very active in that thread, however, not once did you mention "open carry" as being the cause for, or even a contributing factor to her being wounded.

Do you have new information not reported previously that makes you now believe she was open carrying?

I will say, though, that your posts in that thread are most informative about...well, anyone interested can go to the link above.
I went back and read that thread. Boy, were you right about it being most informative about..... !!!!:wow: Can of Planters? :whistling:

OctoberRust
08-13-2012, 10:05
I will when you do too, OK. ;)

Yes, this is my opinion. I'm a keen student of human nature; and I've yet to see public opinion swing in favor of open carry. Why? I don't know. Maybe it's because we're gunmen; and we're supposed to be better at shooting things and quicker on the draw than other people. I mean, let's be perfectly honest with each other: Waving a gun in someone's face - especially in a stranger's face - isn't the friendliest thing you could do. Right!

If you were interested in meeting beautiful women at a local nightclub what would you do? Would you wear a collar of foil-wrapped condoms around your neck and attempt to lecture all the girls on the virtues of birth control? (I don't think so!) :supergrin: Well, it's no different with sidearms. I'm sure neither you nor I carry deadly weapons because we want to exercise other people's constitutional rights for them. Neither do we carry semiautomatic pistols because we want to teach others about their valuable (and formerly inalienable) personal rights to go armed and defend themselves.

Most savvy pistoleros carry because they're scared - That's right; I said, 'scared' - and don't want to be caught empty-handed at the next political rally or movie theater premier by a stark raving mad gun-crazy sociopath who knows how to slip past society's normal safeguards against lunatic behaviors. I leave education up to school teachers and college professors. I leave skillful self-defense up to myself; and carefully concealed carry of multiple weapons is part of my personal self-defense strategy. I don't give a damn about statistics. I just don't want to set ANYONE off either unnecessarily or prematurely, without the very best of valid reasons.

Every time some, 'commuter dad' or, 'soccer mom' becomes unnecessarily alarmed by the sight of another civilian with an exposed gun, our right to go armed isn't helped. It is, instead, damaged; and, then, real gunmen like you and me need to work at repairing the public mistake that someone else with his social courtesy and reasoning brains stuck tightly up his self-centered butt has, once again, made. :freak:


:rofl:

I like it.

good post.

RussP
08-14-2012, 08:00
I used to OC before I could get my CCW and I got demonized or approached all the time. I got used to it quick, I'm sure these people were expecting/ready for itMasterShake, I'm curious, plus your response might help others OCing under similar circumstances.

Would you please tell us how you were approached and demonized, by whom, where, when.

How recent did this happen?

When you say you got use to it quickly, how did that come about? Did you ignore those contacting you, or did you just get use to it, or something in between? How'd you do it?

Thanks for the input.

Arc Angel
08-14-2012, 09:13
Russ, I'm not being rude; and I don't mean to ignore you. However, you hit me with so many questions in post after post that I feel overwhelmed. I'm, also, sick and tired of all the vicious stupid arguments I've been getting into lately on the board. There really is a point where it no longer makes sense to reply; and, after these past few days, I'm now at that point.

So, quickly, I don't care how many people are in OpenCarry.org (You answered one of your own questions when you threw that in!) anymore than I care about how many people voted for Obama in 2008. What does it matter? When it's wrong, it's wrong; and that's all there is to it.

Neither do I care whether or not you like my use of the word, 'spate'. I don't keep records of these incidents; and I don't only read about them here. In the past two or three years there have been more than a few people shot with their own guns. I, also, consider 'open carry' to include any sidearm that is (or becomes) available to, 'the other guy' in such a way that he is able to use it to shoot you. If you don't like this definition what can I say? (Dead is still dead!)

As far as I’m concerned (and, for the record, I’m far from being a stupid human being - Unpopular in certain of my opinions, perhaps, but not stupid.) you open carry people are your own worst enemies and, locked into that curious sort of tunnel vision from which you all suffer, are forcing both yourselves as well as all the rest of us to skate along the edge of social (and political) disaster. You’ve got to get it through your heads that:

GUNS ARE PRIMARILY USED TO KILL PEOPLE!

All of the open carry crowd does everybody who owns a gun a severe disservice by reminding the general public that in far too many places, WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO EXPOSE AND CARRY GUNS AMONG THEM. The popular attitude to carry guns among the urban general public is - in my carefully considered opinion - childish, introverted, myopic, and flagrantly discourteous of the thoughts and feelings of others. Don’t you people get it? Look where we’re going as a nation! There is no legitimate place for deadly firearms in a, ‘one world’ socialist society; and, within the next 20 years, that’s where everybody in North America and on the Continent, as well, is going to be!

Do you think politicians like: Barbara Boxer, Chuck Schumer, Nancy Pelosi, Diane Feinstein, or Frank Lautenberg are frightened by open carry? Would you be surprised to discover that they are bemused by people who insist upon doing it? I’m sure that they are! Would you be further surprised to learn that the anti-gun politicians in government are going to be delighted if the open carry crowd keeps on with their antisocial behavior? I’ll bet these anti-Second Amendment politicians are, damned near, orgasmic over this sort of stupidity in their political opponents!

You open carry people are playing right into their hands! I don’t care how many American households own guns. If you people insist upon continuing as you are now, it’s only going to be a matter of time and, ‘X’ number of additional gun massacres before these very well funded and completely antithetical national politicians pull the Second Amendment right out from underneath all of us.

Let me be perfectly candid with you: Know what? If I were a betting man, my money would be on the anti-gun politicians and the organized news media, and NOT on American’s, open carrying, gun owning zealots. You’ve got to be (1) smarter, (2) tougher, (3) more determined, (4) more willing to commit, and (5) more cunning than the people you’re up against. Anything less than all five of the vital prerequisites bundled above isn’t going to be enough to win.

Let me spell things out even further for you: Have you ever noticed how well the: Nancy Pelosi’s Chuck Schumer’s, Barbara Boxer’s, and Diane Feinstein’s of this world cajole the public and encourage agreement? (They’re very good at it, right!) Well, ……. that’s what America’s gun owners need to do too! Hence, the inevitable self-destruction and ultimate failure of all of these sensational open carry shenanigans.

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO BE GAINED BY ALARMING YOUR FELLOW CITIZENS WITH YOUR SIDEARM - NOTHING! EXPOSED GUNS DO NOT BELONG IN PUBLIC VENUES LIKE: SHOPPING MALLS, RESTAURANTS, OR SUPERMARKETS.

The type of self-serving politicians who seek to disarm their fellow Americans know this; and, they’ve already clearly demonstrated that they are willing to wait. To wait for: time, social events, and overzealous gun owners' own mistakes to sufficiently cripple us to the point where an all out national legislative attack will succeed. Being organized, paying dues, emoting angrily, and running your mouth on the Internet (arguing with someone like me) :supergrin: isn’t anywhere near enough for American’s gun owners to prevail.

Believe it, or not, it would give me absolutely no satisfaction, at all, to be able to say, ‘I told you so!’ However, if this is the best acumen you open carry guys can bring to the table, …….. then, the game’s already been decided; and America’s gun owners have lost. Period!

kirgi08
08-14-2012, 09:48
That dewd could be me.Exceptin my pony tail is a lot longer,belt wise.'08.

Bruce M
08-14-2012, 10:03
Not that he is anything but rather quite capable of defending himself, but my sense is that RussP does not openly carry or encourage others in situations at where the primary result (or a very strong likely result) is people being offended by the openly carried gun.

I believe that we need to remember that there are some areas (my guess is that they are mostly rural in nature) at where openly carrying a handgun really does not raise eyebrows by people lawfully present. As alarmed as I would be at the sight of guy carrying a rifle while walking on an urban sidewalk, I would not be concerned at all seeing a guy carrying a rifle along a powerline road during hunting season. I would probably shake my head at a guy carrying openly in a Chucky Cheese, I would not view it the same way at a grain and feed store in an agricultural area. But that might just be me.

FireForged
08-14-2012, 10:17
ARC ANGEL, your written-method might be a little pointed but you make alot of sense about alot of things. I wont pretend to agree with 100% of your above post but I do agree with its basic premise. This forum is about fruitful debate, friendly discussion and learning. I doubt that I would spend as much time here if I didnt find alternate view points. I hope you continue to state your opinion on this forum.

blackjack
08-14-2012, 11:04
Note to self re: #115 - put Arc Angel in the Concealed Carry only column. Thanks for being there to help the rest of us better understand the definitions of "irony" and "juxtaposition" through your sig line, AA.

It does sadden me that you believe the game is over with the lib-progs certain of the eventual win and all OC can do is hasten the day. That seems defeatist but YMMV. As for me, if I'm still above ground and the 2A hasn't been repealed along with the right to vote, there's still an opportunity to deal with the gun-grabbing politicians.

dpadams6
08-14-2012, 11:37
Russ, I'm not being rude; and I don't mean to ignore you. However, you hit me with so many questions in post after post that I feel overwhelmed. I'm, also, sick and tired of all the vicious stupid arguments I've been getting into lately on the board. There really is a point where it no longer makes sense to reply; and, after these past few days, I'm now at that point.

So, quickly, I don't care how many people are in OpenCarry.org (You answered one of your own questions when you threw that in!) anymore than I care about how many people voted for Obama in 2008. What does it matter? When it's wrong, it's wrong; and that's all there is to it.

Neither do I care whether or not you like my use of the word, 'spate'. I don't keep records of these incidents; and I don't only read about them here. In the past two or three years there have been more than a few people shot with their own guns. I, also, consider 'open carry' to include any sidearm that is (or becomes) available to, 'the other guy' in such a way that he is able to use it to shoot you. If you don't like this definition what can I say? (Dead is still dead!)

As far as Iím concerned (and, for the record, Iím far from being a stupid human being - Unpopular in certain of my opinions, perhaps, but not stupid.) you open carry people are your own worst enemies and, locked into that curious sort of tunnel vision from which you all suffer, are forcing both yourselves as well as all the rest of us to skate along the edge of social (and political) disaster. Youíve got to get it through your heads that:

GUNS ARE PRIMARILY USED TO KILL PEOPLE!

All of the open carry crowd does everybody who owns a gun a severe disservice by reminding the general public that in far too many places, WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO EXPOSE AND CARRY GUNS AMONG THEM. The popular attitude to carry guns among the urban general public is - in my carefully considered opinion - childish, introverted, myopic, and flagrantly discourteous of the thoughts and feelings of others. Donít you people get it? Look where weíre going as a nation! There is no legitimate place for deadly firearms in a, Ďone worldí socialist society; and, within the next 20 years, thatís where everybody in North America and on the Continent, as well, is going to be!

Do you think politicians like: Barbara Boxer, Chuck Schumer, Nancy Pelosi, Diane Feinstein, or Frank Lautenberg are frightened by open carry? Would you be surprised to discover that they are bemused by people who insist upon doing it? Iím sure that they are! Would you be further surprised to learn that the anti-gun politicians in government are going to be delighted if the open carry crowd keeps on with their antisocial behavior? Iíll bet these anti-Second Amendment politicians are, damned near, orgasmic over this sort of stupidity in their political opponents!

You open carry people are playing right into their hands! I donít care how many American households own guns. If you people insist upon continuing as you are now, itís only going to be a matter of time and, ĎXí number of additional gun massacres before these very well funded and completely antithetical national politicians pull the Second Amendment right out from underneath all of us.

Let me be perfectly candid with you: Know what? If I were a betting man, my money would be on the anti-gun politicians and the organized news media, and NOT on Americanís, open carrying, gun owning zealots. Youíve got to be (1) smarter, (2) tougher, (3) more determined, (4) more willing to commit, and (5) more cunning than the people youíre up against. Anything less than all five of the vital prerequisites bundled above isnít going to be enough to win.

Let me spell things out even further for you: Have you ever noticed how well the: Nancy Pelosiís Chuck Schumerís, Barbara Boxerís, and Diane Feinsteinís of this world cajole the public and encourage agreement? (Theyíre very good at it, right!) Well, ÖÖ. thatís what Americaís gun owners need to do too! Hence, the inevitable self-destruction and ultimate failure of all of these sensational open carry shenanigans.

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO BE GAINED BY ALARMING YOUR FELLOW CITIZENS WITH YOUR SIDEARM - NOTHING! EXPOSED GUNS DO NOT BELONG IN PUBLIC VENUES LIKE: SHOPPING MALLS, RESTAURANTS, OR SUPERMARKETS.

The type of self-serving politicians who seek to disarm their fellow Americans know this; and, theyíve already clearly demonstrated that they are willing to wait. To wait for: time, social events, and overzealous gun owners' own mistakes to sufficiently cripple us to the point where an all out national legislative attack will succeed. Being organized, paying dues, emoting angrily, and running your mouth on the Internet (arguing with someone like me) :supergrin: isnít anywhere near enough for Americanís gun owners to prevail.

Believe it, or not, it would give me absolutely no satisfaction, at all, to be able to say, ĎI told you so!í However, if this is the best acumen you open carry guys can bring to the table, ÖÖ.. then, the gameís already been decided; and Americaís gun owners have lost. Period!

Agreed. As always, well said. And if Obama gets 4 more years, look out gun owners. We all know he is going to try to chip away at the 2a. EVEN JUSTICE SCALIA sounds to be wavering slightly on the 2a. Talk about scary. Nothing will probably happen suddenly, but we all know its about chipping away little by little until we all wake up one day and our 2a is gone. These well publicized shootings don't help, but not a lot we can do about the crazy nut from time to time. But, lets face it. The general public is never going to be comfortable seeing open carrying in public places, which is something we can do something about. Why give the liberals more ammunition? NPI.

RussP
08-14-2012, 15:11
First off, as others have said, as I have said numerous times, the real purpose of Carry Issues is the exchange of ideas, opinions, facts so that we all might learn more about this "carry world" we live in.

Another point is, here in CI we invite all opinions (as long as the presentation stays within the proper boundaries of decorum), pro and con, on what ever the carry issue. Heck, when I came here the holster wars were infamous.

However, unlike other forums, we do not allow rude and insulting attacks on "the other side", regardless of the side making the attack here in CI.

Now, as to your post...Russ, I'm not being rude; and I don't mean to ignore you. However, you hit me with so many questions in post after post that I feel overwhelmed. That is why I made separate posts, so you could concentrate on each one individually. That, obviously, didn't work. Oh, well...I'm, also, sick and tired of all the vicious stupid arguments I've been getting into lately on the board.Okay, maybe I'll comment on this later...There really is a point where it no longer makes sense to reply; and, after these past few days, I'm now at that point.Okay...So, quickly, I don't care how many people are in OpenCarry.org (You answered one of your own questions when you threw that in!) anymore than I care about how many people voted for Obama in 2008. What does it matter?To put the issue into perspective, that is why it matters.

You make claims and statements that imply open carriers as a whole are causing problems. That isn't true. It is a very, very small number of OCers making all the headlines and YouTube videos. It appears, no, it is very obvious that you don't care that all other who open carry, all but those few, have no remarkable impact on opinion, at least that anyone tells us about.When it's wrong, it's wrong; and that's all there is to it.See...Neither do I care whether or not you like my use of the word, 'spate'. I don't keep records of these incidents; and I don't only read about them here.That is a problem here. You made a false statement. When called on it, all you can say is, 'I don't care.'

Some might say that could affect the credibility of your other comments.In the past two or three years there have been more than a few people shot with their own guns. I, also, consider 'open carry' to include any sidearm that is (or becomes) available to, 'the other guy' in such a way that he is able to use it to shoot you. If you don't like this definition what can I say? (Dead is still dead!)Like it? Arc Angel, look at the photo in Post #1. That pretty much defines the discussion as being about individuals open carrying firearms on their hips in public. You yourself set this criteria:
about OC'ers


getting disarmed


shot with their own exposed firearms.
Okay, now you want to change that, too.

No one disputes that people have been shot with their own weapons, just that it has only happened once to an individual like the two people pictured in Post #1.As far as Iím concerned (and, for the record, Iím far from being a stupid human being - Unpopular in certain of my opinions, perhaps, but not stupid.)Where did someone accuse you of being stupid in this thread? You are inaccurate with your facts, but not stupid, in my opinion....you open carry people are
your own worst enemies and, locked into that curious sort of tunnel vision from which you all suffer, are forcing both yourselves as well as all the rest of us to skate along the edge of social (and political) disaster. Youíve got to get it through your heads that:

GUNS ARE PRIMARILY USED TO KILL PEOPLE!
"...you open carry people...," here again, Arc Angel, you put all open carriers into the same category. How do you know that your allegations apply to everyone who open carries? You do not, by your own admission.All of the open carry crowd does everybody who owns a gun a severe disservice by reminding the general public that in far too many places, WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO EXPOSE AND CARRY GUNS AMONG THEM.Those words in bold, they mean something to some who open carry, Arc Angel. For some, it is the second, maybe even the first reason why they carry. For others, it is what allows them to OC.The popular attitude to carry guns among the urban general public is - in my carefully considered opinion - childish, introverted, myopic, and flagrantly discourteous of the thoughts and feelings of others. Donít you people get it?Yes, that is your opinion. AND, I hope that someone considering open carrying, but who doesn't possess the mindset to open carry, will read your rude and insulting words, identify with them, and keep their weapon concealed. We do not need childish, introverted, discourteous people open carrying.Look where weíre going as a nation! There is no legitimate place for deadly firearms in a, Ďone worldí socialist society; and, within the next 20 years, thatís where everybody in North America and on the Continent, as well, is going to bePerhaps you are correct. My brother is of the 'one world' persuasion. I buy pistols to piss him off.Do you think politicians like: Barbara Boxer, Chuck Schumer, Nancy Pelosi, Diane Feinstein, or Frank Lautenberg are frightened by open carry?No, wait, maybe, because they believe firearms go off by themselves and kill people, right? Or is it that in their states and city of residence, as well as where they work, open carry is against the law. So, no, they are not afraid of open carry.Would you be surprised to discover that they are bemused by people who insist upon doing it? Iím sure that they are!See, here again is why people, well, maybe it is only me, have a problem with your "statements". You state, "...they are bemused by [open carriers]," as if it is a fact known to you substantiated by fact. Yet, in the your next sentence, "I'm sure they are!" Well, what gives you that confidence? Okay, yes, it is just your personal opinion.Would you be further surprised to learn that the anti-gun politicians in government are going to be delighted if the open carry crowd keeps on with their antisocial behavior? Iíll bet these anti-Second Amendment politicians are, damned near, orgasmic over this sort of stupidity in their political opponents!Bet on WHAT?!? That is their personal, private business.

I will say that they see opportunity in such incidents.You open carry people are playing right into their hands! Yes, there are a few OCers whose actions give opponents more opportunity to promote the anti-2nd Amendment agendas. I donít care how many American households own guns. If you people insist upon continuing as you are now, itís only going to be a matter of time and, ĎXí number of additional gun massacres before these very well funded and completely antithetical national politicians pull the Second Amendment right out from underneath all of us.Again, the "you people." It's getting tiresome.

Are you now, you yourself, equating massacres with open carriers?Let me be perfectly candid with you: Know what? If I were a betting man, my money would be on the anti-gun politicians and the organized news media, and NOT on Americanís, open carrying, gun owning zealots. Youíve got to be (1) smarter, (2) tougher, (3) more determined, (4) more willing to commit, and (5) more cunning than the people youíre up against. Anything less than all five of the vital prerequisites bundled above isnít going to be enough to win.You really do not know many of the non-publicity seeking open carriers do you. You do not know the many organizations working on legislation to solidify the Second Amendment in their States. You do not know the many groups working with local law enforcement to eliminate dissension between cops and carriers. I know some personally. I know the results of others. They are smarter, tougher, more determined, have committed to the cause and, yes, there are the cunning ones sprinkled among them. Let me spell things out even further for you: Have you ever noticed how well the: Nancy Pelosiís Chuck Schumerís, Barbara Boxerís, and Diane Feinsteinís of this world cajole the public and encourage agreement? (Theyíre very good at it, right!) Well, ÖÖ. thatís what Americaís gun owners need to do too! Hence, the inevitable self-destruction and ultimate failure of all of these sensational open carry shenanigans.Yes, they use false statements, unsubstantiated "facts", exaggerations, and abusive language to make their case. Do you agree that is what they do? Does that sound familiar.

NO, America's gun owners need to take the higher road. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO BE GAINED BY ALARMING YOUR FELLOW CITIZENS WITH YOUR SIDEARM - NOTHING! EXPOSED GUNS DO NOT BELONG IN PUBLIC VENUES LIKE: SHOPPING MALLS, RESTAURANTS, OR SUPERMARKETS.I'd ask how many people populate the offended group, but...The type of self-serving politicians who seek to disarm their fellow Americans know this; and, theyíve already clearly demonstrated that they are willing to wait. To wait for: time, social events, and overzealous gun owners' own mistakes to sufficiently cripple us to the point where an all out national legislative attack will succeed. Being organized, paying dues, emoting angrily, and running your mouth on the Internet (arguing with someone like me) :supergrin: isnít anywhere near enough for Americanís gun owners to prevail.But having discussions like this, presenting all sides to the issues, gives others information, some supported by fact, other just unsubstantiated opinion, with which to develop their own positions. Hopefully, it will encourage them to contact their government representatives. That contact should be our goal.Believe it, or not, it would give me absolutely no satisfaction, at all, to be able to say, ĎI told you so!í However, if this is the best acumen you open carry guys can bring to the table, ÖÖ.. then, the gameís already been decided; and Americaís gun owners have lost. Period!As I said, you do not know all that is being done by those who carry, both openly and concealed, that results in actual positive change for gun owners.

Earlier I said I might comment on this:I'm, also, sick and tired of all the vicious stupid arguments I've been getting into lately on the board.I believe your own posting style encourages, even invites the viciousness you mention. As far as being "stupid", I do believe as evidenced by your responses, anyone who disagrees with you, you call them stupid. Me, I ain't stupid. Some of the other responders, I know them. They are not stupid either. Some of the open carriers you globally demean, I know them, too. They are hardly stupid. I disagree with some of them, sometimes very strongly, but they are not stupid.

So, here is my repy in one post. Is this easier for you?

concretefuzzynuts
08-14-2012, 16:11
I haven't open carried since I left Alaska. But after reading some of these posts I'm going to join Opencarry to show my support of freedom of choice (my freedom of choice) and under the right circumstance, may very well open carry. Thanks Arc Angel and Russ.

MasterShake
08-14-2012, 16:25
MasterShake, I'm curious, plus your response might help others OCing under similar circumstances.

Would you please tell us how you were approached and demonized, by whom, where, when.

How recent did this happen?

When you say you got use to it quickly, how did that come about? Did you ignore those contacting you, or did you just get use to it, or something in between? How'd you do it?

Thanks for the input.
Before I start, I'd just like to mention that I am not an OC advocate at all, nor do I care to do it, so if I made that impression in anyway, I apologize. I'm not against it being legal, I just don't care for it.


I'm 23 and I haven't OC'd in 2 years since I became of age to obtain my CCW and have been concealing ever since. Now, when I did have to OC I've been approached under a few different circumstances. I've been approached by fellow shooters and guns/gun rights advocates and enthusiasts before, complementing my gun choice and for the fact that I am OC'ing, or just to ask me gun questions. I've been approached by wanna' be gangsta's telling me how cool and "hard" I look, thinking just because I'm a younger guy with tattoos and gun on my my hip I'm trying to make a "I'm a bad ass gangsta looking to kill" statement. The last one didn't really bother me, it just made me laugh a bit actually.

Anyway, then I've been approached by Anti-gun types asking me why I feel it necessary to have a gun and carry it openly, with them giving me the look and having a "I'm a nut job" demeanor towards me no matter what I said. Last but not least, I've been booted from stores by creeped out or angry managers and glared at by old folks who are freaked out and probably think I'm a thug looking to rob them or someone. When this first started happening, I was pissed off or caught off guard with all the attention I got, but then, like I said, I just got used to it quick. Yeah, I didn't like scaring people or knowing that people probably thought I was nuts, but I just adapted and learned to live with it at the time because I HAD to until I was old enough to obtain my CCW. I didn't start ignoring anyone or getting hostile, I kind of just stopped caring.


I guess I just got used to it because at the beginning, I knew I HAD to if I wanted to carry, then later on I'd just laugh it off and move on. Not even 2 days of being 21, I took and passed my CCW test and had one in my hand a week later. Haven't OC'd since. I have no problem with people OC'ing or it being legal, I just don't care for it personally and I don't care to be the center of attention in that kind of a spotlight. I guess if I was in any position to give advice, which I may not be, but I guess just don't let anything get to you. Laugh it off and move on, take their negative words or looks with a grain of salt without being rude or aggresive.

Know you aren't breaking the law and can't be arrested, which later on in OC'ing, I kept in mind too. I think if you're comfortable with the idea of the attention you are going to get by CHOOSING to OC, then you need to be comfortable with not caring at all about how much people like the first impression you make on them. If you have the intention on getting your CCW and you HAVE to OC because you are not 21 yet or are waiting on your CCW to get in or for the time to get it, just take comfort in the fact that if you want to carry a gun, you have no choice. Well, hope that provided a little insight to where I was coming from at the time and was a little more then me just babbling.

RussP
08-14-2012, 16:30
Thank you, great response!

MasterShake
08-14-2012, 17:13
Thanks Russ. :wavey:

Arc Angel
08-14-2012, 20:22
Russ, I see I've given you something to write about. Wow! for a guy who tends to think in circles and rarely says anything new, you certainly are verbose! You remind me of a man who's sharing a lifeboat with a few fellow passengers and a 1,000# gorilla. You're doing your very best to pretend that gorilla isnít there; and you're encouraging everyone else to sit at your end of the boat and hope he will finally jump overboard and just go away.

All your narrow-minded and rather antagonistic replies have succeeded in convincing me of is that you AND YOUR KIND are definitely no match for the sort of intelligence and world-wise experience youíre attempting to go up against. (You're paying $4.00 a gallon for gas just like the rest of us, right?) So, once again, I really donít care what you think; neither do I care how you interpret (or misinterpret) anything Iíve had to say; and, Russ, I got 'a tell you, herein youíve demonstrated a unique ability for missing a lot of the actual import behind much of what Iíve had to say. (NOT uncommon for you people and your closed, stubborn sort of mindset.)

You should have noticed - and I thought you would recognize - that I only rarely use the tone of reply Iíve been employing lately; (Iím a little atypically hostile and confrontational; arenít I.) :supergrin: but, as I said, Iím getting tired of all the heavily biased and mean-spirited replies to both my viewpoint and posts. (It amuses me that you people are very quick to call for fairness out of one side of your mouth, and equally quick to, Ďslam-dunkí anyone who dares to disagree with you.)

Sadly, reason doesnít work on you people; and being courteous has proven to be a giant waste of time. When it comes to Second Amendment Rights you and your kind have already, Ďbought the farmí, Pal. You just donít see it yet; but, the dayís going to come when you will. Perhaps, sooner than you think. (Remember, 'I told you so!') ;)

ithaca_deerslayer
08-14-2012, 20:41
Wow, A+ for style points.

I like when a writer shows charisma. Amusing for the 1000 pounder to claim being picked on while slinging mud and rocks.

I also like when people are brave enough to stand up for freedom. Open carry tells me someone is not caving in to political correctness.

Is open carry smart to do in urban areas? It might not help the general public opinion much. But I sure do admire the moxy of people who do it.

Arc Angel
08-14-2012, 20:57
Agreed. As always, well said. And if Obama gets 4 more years, look out gun owners. We all know he is going to try to chip away at the 2a. EVEN JUSTICE SCALIA sounds to be wavering slightly on the 2a. Talk about scary. Nothing will probably happen suddenly, but we all know its about chipping away little by little until we all wake up one day and our 2a is gone. These well publicized shootings don't help, but not a lot we can do about the crazy nut from time to time. But, lets face it. The general public is never going to be comfortable seeing open carrying in public places, which is something we can do something about. Why give the liberals more ammunition? NPI.

Your reply is so lucid that I find myself wondering, ‘Why’ everyone else doesn’t seem to get it? Yeah, I noticed Scalia’s recent remarks, too; and I agree the implication is, both, foreboding and ominous.

‘The general public is never going to be comfortable seeing open carrying in public places, which is something we can do something about. Why give the liberals more ammunition?’ That statement goes straight to the heart of my argument and is the gist of what I have to say. Too bad its tactical and intellectual worth is so, ……. ‘invisible’ to so many other gunmen!

First off, as others have said, as I have said numerous times, the real purpose of Carry Issues is the exchange of ideas, opinions, facts so that we all might learn more about this "carry world" we live in. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah …….

This remark sets to tone for everything else you’ve had to say. It’s, also, indicative of the typically distorted rationale so many of you open carry people like to hide behind while you’re out and about in public terrifying soccer moms and their children, and alarming people with your exposed weaponry. Even though it might be a new experience for you, try to be honest with, both, yourself and other people: If, ‘education’ really is your goal then stop frightening the public with your guns, and do something genuinely constructive like handing out written pamphlets for the: NRA, GOA, JPFO, etc. Instead of a gun, the next time you go to the mall, bring a soapbox with you. It will be far less alarming, and attract far more sympathy to the cause of firearms ownership if you seek to lecture (and genuinely educate) people rather than alarm them.

At least attempt a genuine didactic method for your Second Amendment viewpoints. I think you’ll find more people willing to listen if you use reason rather than: shock value, and strongly implied intimidation. Get it through your head that all guns are deadly, life taking, weapons. As such they don’t make very good educational tools for the general public.



PS: Oh yeah! Let's not forget: A T-shirt can often say far more than an exposed 357 Magnum, and might actually be more useful in driving those Second Amendment points you wish to make, home. ;)

concretefuzzynuts
08-14-2012, 21:55
‘NOTE TO SELF: Try Harder To Be Patient With Trival, Cowardly, And Opinionated People. It's A Big Internet; You Really Can't Avoid 'Um; And, After All, They're Just Being Themselves.’


Your sig line is very introspective.

RussP
08-14-2012, 22:04
Russ, I see I've given you something to write about. Wow! for a guy who tends to think in circles and rarely says anything new, you certainly are verbose!I think in circles? Not really. I may say the same thing in different ways, based on the person I'm addressing, or rather on the argument or position the person is presenting.

Here is your linear thinking. Problem: The Second Amendment is under attack.

Evidence: Organizations promoting gun control constantly and consistently exploit every negative event involving guns.

Among the most visible are events involving open carry of firearms.

Solution: Eliminate the open carry of firearms.Have I misunderstood your thinking?

You will not gain a consensus using that reasoning.You remind me of a man who's sharing a lifeboat with a few fellow passengers and a 1,000# gorilla. You're doing your very best to pretend that gorilla isnít there; and you're encouraging everyone else to sit at your end of the boat and hope he will finally jump overboard and just go away.You are completely ignoring most everything I am saying.

What 1,000# gorilla have I ignored? It cannot be open carry? I address open carry head on. You just do not like hat I and others have to say, like, open carry is one of the choices those living where it is not prohibited can make when deciding how to carry.

You never did address my question about those who choose to open carry before reaching the qualifying age for a concealed permit. Do you want to deny them their Right to defend themselves? What about it?

I've been writing here and elsewhere about open carry for almost ten years now. I study the issues on many forums, national and regional, other than GT. There are about 20 or so I read.

I read news reports linked in threads about the problems OCers have out in public. There are real life attorneys on some of the boards who counsel OCers on behavior and response to confrontations. These are the attorneys who actually represent OCers, not internet keyboard lawyers. Heck, one of the better of them is a member here on GT.

And, as you found out, I do keep track of the actual facts of events involving those of us to carry.

So, no, I do not ignore the topic of open carry. I just look at ALL sides of all the issues, the totality of circumstances surrounding open carry.

For the record, we have the Right to carry a firearm for self defense. Where not prohibited by law, that Right includes the choice of openly carrying that firearm.

Not everyone should open carry. Some people should not open carry. Some people open carrying should not at any time. I did a long piece a few years ago about who should and should not carry. The list of who should not carry was much longer. Of course, some of my reasons for them not carrying are exactly why they DO open carry. See, Arc Angel, it is not as black and white as you want it to be.ll your narrow-minded and rather antagonistic replies have succeeded in convincing me of is that you AND YOUR KIND are definitely no match for the sort of intelligence and world-wise experience youíre attempting to go up against. (You're paying $4.00 a gallon for gas just like the rest of us, right?) So, once again, I really donít care what you think; neither do I care how you interpret (or misinterpret) anything Iíve had to say; and, Russ, I got 'a tell you, herein youíve demonstrated a unique ability for missing a lot of the actual import behind much of what Iíve had to say. (NOT uncommon for you people and your closed, stubborn sort of mindset.)See above, I am hardly narrow minded about open carry.

What has the price of gas got to do with this discussion?

Okay, now you have hit upon the real problem. You want everyone to adopt your way of doing things, yet you care nothing about hearing any words not 150% supportive of your own narrow minded viewpoint.

I do know the importance of gaining ground on the anti-gun organizations and groups. I just do not go about it with the in-your-face attitude of some. For some reason you have not comprehended that.You should have noticed - and I thought you would recognize - that I only rarely use the tone of reply Iíve been employing lately; (Iím a little atypically hostile and confrontational; arenít I.) :supergrin: but, as I said, Iím getting tired of all the heavily biased and mean-spirited replies to both my viewpoint and posts. (It amuses me that you people are very quick to call for fairness out of one side of your mouth, and equally quick to, Ďslam-dunkí anyone who dares to disagree with you.)You use the confrontational tone more often than you choose to admit to. AND, the parts in bold, that sounds like an apt description of your own responses here.Sadly, reason doesnít work on you people; and being courteous has proven to be a giant waste of time. When it comes to Second Amendment Rights you and your kind have already, Ďbought the farmí, Pal. You just donít see it yet; but, the dayís going to come when you will. Perhaps, sooner than you think. (Remember, 'I told you so!') ;)Reason does work. I have talked several people I know of, and maybe even more I do not know about, into not open carrying. They did not react well to approaches like yours, the insults and demeaning language, but after a while I was able to dissuade them with real reasons why they personally should not OC.

If you read carefully, a very great number of people who open carry follow my philosophy of only OCing when and where appropriate. For some, that means they rarely OC, for others, the frequency is greater, still others it is most of the time, but not always. The hardcore, yes they say they carry OC all the time, but in reality, based on my years of talking with them, only a very, very few do so.

But, then, you don't care what anyone else has to say. So, why do I keep responding? It isn't about you at all. It is about that one person, only one, maybe not even a member here, a lurker, who just might be reading this thread, trying to decide if this OC thing is for them. Yeah, I just want them to know that for the overwhelming majority of people, open carry is not a good choice for a long list of reasons. On the top of the list for most will be, "I just don't want to." That's the best answer. Just as for those who want to OC, "I just want to," that should be good, too.

It is, after all, our Right. Rights come with responsibilities. Responsibility comes with consequences for for abusing them. It's the way it works out here in the real world.

RussP
08-14-2012, 22:14
This remark sets to tone for everything else you’ve had to say. It’s, also, indicative of the typically distorted rationale so many of you open carry people like to hide behind while you’re out and about in public terrifying soccer moms and their children, and alarming people with your exposed weaponry. Even though it might be a new experience for you, try to be honest with, both, yourself and other people: If, ‘education’ really is your goal then stop frightening the public with your guns, and do something genuinely constructive like handing out written pamphlets for the: NRA, GOA, JPFO, etc. Instead of a gun, the next time you go to the mall, bring a soapbox with you. It will be far less alarming, and attract far more sympathy to the cause of firearms ownership if you seek to lecture (and genuinely educate) people rather than alarm them.

At least attempt a genuine didactic method for your Second Amendment viewpoints. I think you’ll find more people willing to listen if you use reason rather than: shock value, and strongly implied intimidation. Get it through your head that all guns are deadly, life taking, weapons. As such they don’t make very good educational tools for the general public.



PS: Oh yeah! Let's not forget: A T-shirt can often say far more than an exposed 357 Magnum, and might actually be more useful in driving those Second Amendment points you wish to make, home. ;)

Hate to disappoint you, but none of that is my style.

Do you wear pro-gun, pro-carry t-shirts you recommend others wear?

RussP
08-14-2012, 22:15
Thanks Russ. :wavey::wavey:

zbusdriver
08-14-2012, 23:25
Russ, I'm not being rude; and I don't mean to ignore you. However, you hit me with so many questions in post after post that I feel overwhelmed. I'm, also, sick and tired of all the vicious stupid arguments I've been getting into lately on the board. There really is a point where it no longer makes sense to reply; and, after these past few days, I'm now at that point.

So, quickly, I don't care how many people are in OpenCarry.org (You answered one of your own questions when you threw that in!) anymore than I care about how many people voted for Obama in 2008. What does it matter? When it's wrong, it's wrong; and that's all there is to it.

Neither do I care whether or not you like my use of the word, 'spate'. I don't keep records of these incidents; and I don't only read about them here. In the past two or three years there have been more than a few people shot with their own guns. I, also, consider 'open carry' to include any sidearm that is (or becomes) available to, 'the other guy' in such a way that he is able to use it to shoot you. If you don't like this definition what can I say? (Dead is still dead!)

As far as Iím concerned (and, for the record, Iím far from being a stupid human being - Unpopular in certain of my opinions, perhaps, but not stupid.) you open carry people are your own worst enemies and, locked into that curious sort of tunnel vision from which you all suffer, are forcing both yourselves as well as all the rest of us to skate along the edge of social (and political) disaster. Youíve got to get it through your heads that:

GUNS ARE PRIMARILY USED TO KILL PEOPLE!

All of the open carry crowd does everybody who owns a gun a severe disservice by reminding the general public that in far too many places, WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO EXPOSE AND CARRY GUNS AMONG THEM. The popular attitude to carry guns among the urban general public is - in my carefully considered opinion - childish, introverted, myopic, and flagrantly discourteous of the thoughts and feelings of others. Donít you people get it? Look where weíre going as a nation! There is no legitimate place for deadly firearms in a, Ďone worldí socialist society; and, within the next 20 years, thatís where everybody in North America and on the Continent, as well, is going to be!

Do you think politicians like: Barbara Boxer, Chuck Schumer, Nancy Pelosi, Diane Feinstein, or Frank Lautenberg are frightened by open carry? Would you be surprised to discover that they are bemused by people who insist upon doing it? Iím sure that they are! Would you be further surprised to learn that the anti-gun politicians in government are going to be delighted if the open carry crowd keeps on with their antisocial behavior? Iíll bet these anti-Second Amendment politicians are, damned near, orgasmic over this sort of stupidity in their political opponents!

You open carry people are playing right into their hands! I donít care how many American households own guns. If you people insist upon continuing as you are now, itís only going to be a matter of time and, ĎXí number of additional gun massacres before these very well funded and completely antithetical national politicians pull the Second Amendment right out from underneath all of us.

Let me be perfectly candid with you: Know what? If I were a betting man, my money would be on the anti-gun politicians and the organized news media, and NOT on Americanís, open carrying, gun owning zealots. Youíve got to be (1) smarter, (2) tougher, (3) more determined, (4) more willing to commit, and (5) more cunning than the people youíre up against. Anything less than all five of the vital prerequisites bundled above isnít going to be enough to win.

Let me spell things out even further for you: Have you ever noticed how well the: Nancy Pelosiís Chuck Schumerís, Barbara Boxerís, and Diane Feinsteinís of this world cajole the public and encourage agreement? (Theyíre very good at it, right!) Well, ÖÖ. thatís what Americaís gun owners need to do too! Hence, the inevitable self-destruction and ultimate failure of all of these sensational open carry shenanigans.

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO BE GAINED BY ALARMING YOUR FELLOW CITIZENS WITH YOUR SIDEARM - NOTHING! EXPOSED GUNS DO NOT BELONG IN PUBLIC VENUES LIKE: SHOPPING MALLS, RESTAURANTS, OR SUPERMARKETS.

The type of self-serving politicians who seek to disarm their fellow Americans know this; and, theyíve already clearly demonstrated that they are willing to wait. To wait for: time, social events, and overzealous gun owners' own mistakes to sufficiently cripple us to the point where an all out national legislative attack will succeed. Being organized, paying dues, emoting angrily, and running your mouth on the Internet (arguing with someone like me) :supergrin: isnít anywhere near enough for Americanís gun owners to prevail.

Believe it, or not, it would give me absolutely no satisfaction, at all, to be able to say, ĎI told you so!í However, if this is the best acumen you open carry guys can bring to the table, ÖÖ.. then, the gameís already been decided; and Americaís gun owners have lost. Period!Spot on! Open carry is just a bunch of nonsense! :upeyes:

concretefuzzynuts
08-14-2012, 23:37
When I took the picture I told the couple in the photo this would make a good post. Here's the rest of the story:

They both looked puzzled and the guy asked me why. I said there was a lot of controversy over open carry on our site. He said there had been a number (he stated a number and all I remember is it was over 50) of crimes in the area adjacent to me. And they just carried to protect themselves. She stated there was an attempted rape in the area they live in. Post # 21.

Would you say she's wrong to open carry when she is afraid of getting raped? Her husband is there to protect her also. Would a rapist think twice?

I told you there was more to the story. Judge not, lest you be judged.

concretefuzzynuts
08-14-2012, 23:57
That's all there was to our encounter. When I brought this subject up I knew there would be a good discussion about open carry. Again I do not open carry. But her concern over being raped made me think, how would I feel if I were in her position? Would the sight of two people open carrying be a deterrent? Or even just her?

Lone_Wolfe
08-15-2012, 00:00
.....

I told you there was more to the story. Judge not, lest you be judged.

I think it should be the right of EVERY law-abiding citizen to carry or not carry, as they choose. I also think it should be their choice to carry open, concealed, or both.

kirgi08
08-15-2012, 02:26
Wow, A+ for style points.

I like when a writer shows charisma. Amusing for the 1000 pounder to claim being picked on while slinging mud and rocks.

I also like when people are brave enough to stand up for freedom. Open carry tells me someone is not caving in to political correctness.

Is open carry smart to do in urban areas? It might not help the general public opinion much. But I sure do admire the moxy of people who do it.

:goodpost: :agree:

redbaron007
08-15-2012, 07:27
RussP...Thx very much for your comments....you typed very much what I was thinking, but unable to do.

Arc Angel...we will have to agree to disagree......good luck in life.


:wavey:

red

RussP
08-15-2012, 07:53
When I took the picture I told the couple in the photo this would make a good post. Here's the rest of the story:

They both looked puzzled and the guy asked me why. I said there was a lot of controversy over open carry on our site. He said there had been a number (he stated a number and all I remember is it was over 50) of crimes in the area adjacent to me. And they just carried to protect themselves. She stated there was an attempted rape in the area they live in. Post # 21.

Would you say she's wrong to open carry when she is afraid of getting raped? Her husband is there to protect her also. Would a rapist think twice?

I told you there was more to the story. Judge not, lest you be judged.Virginia Beach is a big place. There are some areas I avoid in VB even in the daytime. Which neighborhood is this.

There's an issue I see in OCing in your own neighborhood. I have done it, I do it, but if the area is as rough as you report here, it can be hazardous. Bad guys can observe your habits and take advantage of your routine. This holds true for anyone, armed or not.

I have not seen it reported, but I believe that may have been, could have been a contributing factor in the BP station shooting of the OCer in Richmond. The address of the victim and the address associated with the shooter were in the same apartment complex less than 600 yards from the convenience store. Had the shooter observed the victim before and knew he was armed? The victim's wife said he normally carried concealed. He was open carrying that night.

Traveling with another person, as they were doing in the store, is a deterrent to some attackers. It all depends on the circumstances.

So, concretefuzzynuts, for those here not familiar with VB, how about some information about that neighborhood.

Thanks

concretefuzzynuts
08-15-2012, 08:10
Virginia Beach is a big place. There are some areas I avoid in VB even in the daytime. Which neighborhood is this.


They live north of the Chesapeake Bay Bridge. And there has been a spate (:supergrin:) of burglaries in that area and I knew of an attempted rape. Usually a peaceful area, mostly military.

I do not live in that neighborhood.

Bruce M
08-15-2012, 10:13
.... And there has been a spate (:supergrin:) of burglaries in that area ....

http://500motivators.com/plog-content/thumbs/motivate/me/large/669-what-you-did-its-there-i-see-it.jpg

MasterShake
08-15-2012, 10:47
:rofl:

ampeg500
08-15-2012, 10:56
Regardless of your views on OC, you have to admit: that looks like a photo you'd see on People of Walmart. Just saying.

Veedubklown
08-15-2012, 11:12
I just got back from a week and half stint in Kingman, AZ. EVERYONE OC's up there. I'm walking around with my IWB holster exposed, because it's hot and I don't want to wear cover, and at least 5 times I got asked if it was a stun gun. For a bunch of gun nuts, they're kinda dumb. One dude asked if it was a 9 or 40, but I don't really care to advertise that I'm packin.

ZO6Vettever
08-15-2012, 16:23
Oh, I'm sorry, do you want these pork chops?

12gamossberg
08-16-2012, 14:29
I once open carried in the Wal Mart & darn near got myself locked up. But! The kid... Umm... cop was a good guy and told me to cover it up. I don't open carry anymore. No problems since.

RussP
08-16-2012, 15:15
I once open carried in the Wal Mart & darn near got myself locked up. But! The kid... Umm... cop was a good guy and told me to cover it up. I don't open carry anymore. No problems since.Mind telling us when and where? Was this in an open carry state?

n8vyc
08-16-2012, 21:31
I would like 500 rounds of butter, FMJ....

country85
08-17-2012, 09:26
I think it should be the right of EVERY law-abiding citizen to carry or not carry, as they choose. I also think it should be their choice to carry open, concealed, or both.

Amen! I'm glad some one said it. Now not to take away from ya'll all open carriers are the devil conversation(:supergrin:) but seeing this picture made me think of a couple that comes in to the Sam's club I work at in north central Indiana, she carries a PF9 in plain view in a duty type holster. The funny part is that her husband doesn't carry at all, concealed or open

Veedubklown
08-17-2012, 10:53
Amen! I'm glad some one said it. Now not to take away from ya'll all open carriers are the devil conversation(:supergrin:) but seeing this picture made me think of a couple that comes in to the Sam's club I work at in north central Indiana, she carries a PF9 in plain view in a duty type holster. The funny part is that her husband doesn't carry at all, concealed or open

I saw that in Kingman. A couple were OC'ing, dude had a ruger SR9c, and she had a P3AT, from the looks of it. He definately had a blackhawk serpa, and she had something similar, that I didn't know they made for the little kel-tecs. It's hot, and some people don't consider CC comfortable. Okay, I can see that, but I didn't understand why that little gun (hers) needed such a big holster, when she could easily slip it in her pocket or purse. To each their own, I guess. :dunno:

Indianashooter
08-17-2012, 19:56
Wow, this thread reminds me of the forum I follow in Indiana! Has the same OC authoritarians that the Indiana thread has. This state is silent on the type of carry.
Depending on what part of the state you live in, OC would invite police interaction. Other areas, the LEO's wouldn't even give you a second look. The county I live in is about evenly split. The western half is controlled by Democrats and the police there harass OCers. The eastern half is like another country. Leo's there hardly give OCers a second look.
I OC and CC, depending on my plans for the day. I HATE when self righteous people tell how I am WRONG, despite state law, just because it's their opinion.