Florida "Stand Your Ground" case on First 48 [Archive] - Glock Talk

PDA

View Full Version : Florida "Stand Your Ground" case on First 48


IndyGunFreak
08-09-2012, 19:31
Basically, a guy caught a dude breaking into his car. He claims dude swung a bag of radios at his head, he chased him down and stabbed him (the actual stabbing was caught on surveillance footage, but was difficult to make out). Took the police a few days to find him. Guy basically sat down on the sidewalk after he was stabbed, and bled out.

He made a pretty damning confession. Despite this, his lawyer argued it should be dismissed due to stand your ground. Judge dismissed the case on stand your ground, saying the bag of radios were a lethal weapon.

3mo later, the guy is shot in the crossfire of a gang shootout. Supposedly he was an innocent victim in that shootout.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/28/miami-judge-rules-in-stan_n_1385219.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/27/stand-ground-man-shot-dead_n_1630974.html

JW1178
08-09-2012, 22:15
He could have been in deep water because he presued him, but he has a right to his personal property that had been stolen.

Drain You
08-09-2012, 22:23
I have seen the originally story & then the follow up about the shooting online already. I also caught most of the show tonight.

If him being shot was really part of a plot by family members of the guy he stabbed, I wouldn't blame them & applaud them. Not saying you should go around robbing & attacking people, but just sayin'

Glock_9mm
08-09-2012, 22:42
...If him being shot was really part of a plot by family members of the guy he stabbed, I wouldn't blame them & applaud them. Not saying you should go around robbing & attacking people, but just sayin'

It appears that you have seen more and have more knowlegde on this than the two articles posted above, but your post peaked my curiosity.

My first impression is that the guy who was robbed and did the stabbing was not a saint. However, he was not charged and the case was dismissed by the judge. If he was killed by the robbers family, are you saying you condone that people take justice into their own hands?

I ask this with the utmost sincerity because sometimes posts can be misunderstood.
Scott

Drain You
08-09-2012, 22:53
Guy was breaking into his truck to steal the radio, 2nd guy confronted him and gave chase. Guy #1 tried hitting chaser with bag of radios, guy #2 stabbed him to death, walked scott free.


I can certainly understand the family's frustration & anger.
Should every family take vengeance? No. But if some should, this family would be high on the list.

Not being directly involved in the situation I personally think they both got was coming to them.

skippz
08-09-2012, 23:38
I don't agree with the slaying of the perp... Perhaps a little overboard. But if you are robbing or stealing from someone, you should be fully aware and actually expect you may be justifiably made dead.

Sam Spade
08-10-2012, 06:39
Supposedly he was an innocent victim in that shootout.



Karma never visits innocent victims.

John43
08-10-2012, 06:44
I saw this show and I couldn't believe they called the robber the VICTIM!.

JW1178
08-10-2012, 06:48
Lesson Learned:

Don't bring a bag of car stereos to a knife fight.

Stay out of the line of fire even if you have a knife.

The order

Gun beats Knife
Knife beats Stereos
But would a bag of stereos beat a gun considering you might be able to use the stereos the block the bullets?
Paper, Rock, Sissors?

fuzzy03cls
08-10-2012, 08:10
Judge fail..... I don't see how this was dropped by SYG definition.. This is why SYG is so suspect.

IndyGunFreak
08-10-2012, 09:11
Judge fail..... I don't see how this was dropped by SYG definition.. This is why SYG is so suspect.

IIRC, the judge ruled the bag of radios was a weapon when he swung it at the guys head.... This was the whole crux of the stand your ground defense.


I can certainly understand the family's frustration & anger.
Should every family take vengeance? No. But if some should, this family would be high on the list.
.

While the stabber was no saint, I'm not sure I agree here. The guy was stabbed and killed while breaking into his truck and stealing his property. I have no sympathy for thieves. Since he had a "bag of radios" it's quite likely he broke into several vehicles that night.

They wouldn't even make my "list" of people who should be seeking vengeance.

fuzzy03cls
08-10-2012, 09:52
IIRC, the judge ruled the bag of radios was a weapon when he swung it at the guys head.... This was the whole crux of the stand your ground defense.
That's self defense, not SYG. I don't see how a "bag of radios" being swung at you would be in fear of great bodily harm or death as in FL statutes. It's another misuse of the law IMHO.

I'm not a judge though & don't have access to all the evidence.

IndyGunFreak
08-10-2012, 13:31
That's self defense, not SYG. I don't see how a "bag of radios" being swung at you would be in fear of great bodily harm or death as in FL statutes. It's another misuse of the law IMHO.

I'm not a judge though & don't have access to all the evidence.

Stand Your Ground came into play because the prosecutors said he should have retreated. He had no duty to retreat since his property was being stolen... thus SYG.

Chris Chris
08-10-2012, 14:13
Stand Your Ground came into play because the prosecutors said he should have retreated. He had no duty to retreat since his property was being stolen... thus SYG.

A heavy bag of radios/equipment swung at you could very logically be considered a "deadly weapon... placing a reasonable man in immenent danger of death or serious bodily injury". SYG is certainly in order.

What I don't understand... from reading what is available on this subject... is why the Judge granted SYG immunity after the "victim" chased the perp down and stabbed him.

There is no SYG or 'self-defense' involved in that. The "victim" became the attacker when he pursued and assaulted the perp with deadly force. IMHO, the radio thief would have had the claim to SYG self defense here.

He was running away. No threat to the victim then existed. The 'victim' then pursued and assaulted.

In light of the law regarding SYG, the Judges decision does not make sense to me. No self defense statutes that I am aware of allow one to kill to recover stolen property by pursuing the thief and using deadly force on them.

IndyGunFreak
08-10-2012, 15:00
A heavy bag of radios/equipment swung at you could very logically be considered a "deadly weapon... placing a reasonable man in immenent danger of death or serious bodily injury". SYG is certainly in order.

What I don't understand... from reading what is available on this subject... is why the Judge granted SYG immunity after the "victim" chased the perp down and stabbed him.

There is no SYG or 'self-defense' involved in that. The "victim" became the attacker when he pursued and assaulted the perp with deadly force. IMHO, the radio thief would have had the claim to SYG self defense here.

He was running away. No threat to the victim then existed. The 'victim' then pursued and assaulted.


You can't be committing a crime (ie, breaking into vehicles and stealing radios) and claim stand your ground.

poodleplumber
08-10-2012, 15:57
You can't be committing a crime (ie, breaking into vehicles and stealing radios) and claim stand your ground.

Agreed. But neither am I certain that chasing down the criminal and stabbing (or shooting, or beating) him is standing your ground, either. SYG to me connotes making a defensive stand on the ground you already occupy, not aggression and pursuit. Personally, I don't want to see SYG laws repealed because the interpretations start to look like justification for vigilantism.

Chris Chris
08-10-2012, 17:40
You can't be committing a crime (ie, breaking into vehicles and stealing radios) and claim stand your ground.

The SYG claim was not raised by the perp who broke into the vehicle and stole the radios. He's dead and makes no claims.

The SYG claim was made by the individual whose vehicle was broken into and whose radios were stolen. He is the one who then chased the radio thief down and stabbed him to death.

It's hard for me to see any degree of 'self defense' there. And, as far as SYG... the stabber had to chase the thief in order to catch him and stab him to death.

What ground did he 'stand'?

The SYG law is a good one. Misinterpretations and mis-applications only serve to provide fodder for those who would overturn this fine law. Just MHO.

IndyGunFreak
08-10-2012, 22:15
The SYG claim was not raised by the perp who broke into the vehicle and stole the radios. He's dead and makes no claims.

I know that, you said if anyone had a SYG claim, it was the radio thief. You can't be committing a crime and claim you were standing your ground.

As for the rest of your post... I wish I could find the video, while the knifer did run after the guy, the guy was also swinging at him (granted, natural reaction to block a knife).

I personally don't have a problem with the way the law was applied in this case.

beatcop
08-11-2012, 09:20
Don't kill someone over "things"

IndyGunFreak
08-11-2012, 11:34
Don't kill someone over "things"

This attitude is why theft, burglary, robbery, etc.. is so rampant. Personally, I think this is one of the better reasons to kill someone.

Chris Chris
08-11-2012, 12:54
This attitude is why theft, burglary, robbery, etc.. is so rampant. Personally, I think this is one of the better reasons to kill someone.

If you decide to give that a shot sometime (no pun intended) then... uh... let us know how it worked out for you. :whistling:

Using deadly force in defense of life is one thing. Shooting someone who is running away with your Ipad is another.

redbaron007
08-11-2012, 13:10
Don't kill someone over "things"

This attitude is why theft, burglary, robbery, etc.. is so rampant. Personally, I think this is one of the better reasons to kill someone.

I agree IGF! Aside from a child molester/rape, not sure what get's much lower!


:wavey:

red

beatcop
08-11-2012, 19:54
I am held to a more strict set of standards as a police officer, but my personal opinion is that when the sentence is a misdemeanor, you don't sentence people to death. If it's not a felony crime of violence, what the hell are you shooting someone over?

I've arrested/seen enough "good kids" from good families to know that their lapse of judgment was momentary. In the clear light of hindsight I don't want to be the one who killed a dumb kid over some impulsive act. If you can sleep at might after that, than more power to you, but I don't want that on my mind.

IndyGunFreak
08-12-2012, 01:50
I am held to a more strict set of standards as a police officer, but my personal opinion is that when the sentence is a misdemeanor, you don't sentence people to death. If it's not a felony crime of violence, what the hell are you shooting someone over?

I've arrested/seen enough "good kids" from good families to know that their lapse of judgment was momentary. In the clear light of hindsight I don't want to be the one who killed a dumb kid over some impulsive act. If you can sleep at might after that, than more power to you, but I don't want that on my mind.

This thread has nothing to do w/ being a police officer or what their standards are... so I'm not really sure why you even brought that up.

As for why to shoot someone over something thats not a violent felony... How many crimes start off as a "non violent felony" and turn violent? Couple of kids stealing a car, an owner unknowingly walks out in the process and gets shot by the "good kids from good families".

Whatever, if the consequences of being a thief were severe, kids would either learn very young not to steal, or parents would make sure they knew not to steal... hopefully the latter.

beatcop
08-12-2012, 08:15
This thread has nothing to do w/ being a police officer or what their standards are... so I'm not really sure why you even brought that up.

As for why to shoot someone over something thats not a violent felony... How many crimes start off as a "non violent felony" and turn violent? Couple of kids stealing a car, an owner unknowingly walks out in the process and gets shot by the "good kids from good families".

Whatever, if the consequences of being a thief were severe, kids would either learn very young not to steal, or parents would make sure they knew not to steal... hopefully the latter.

Pointing out that "use of force" under color of law is guided by extensive case law. Whereas chasing someone down and stabbing them over a property would be a violation as a cop, it is ok for a citizen? Doesn't sound right to me.

You judge use of force based on the facts at hand, not by what might happen. Either it's a deadly force situation or not.

ScottieG59
08-12-2012, 23:57
Maybe I am confused here, but my understanding of "stand your ground" (SYG) has to do with shifting the burden of proof to the prosecution.

If the accused is legally in a place and claims self defense under SYG, the prosecution would have to have evidence that the self defense claim can very likely be disproven. The idea is to minimize prosecution of cases that will not likely be won.

It is simply a test to determine if a trial is worth the effort and expense.

fuzzy03cls
08-13-2012, 07:50
He had no duty to retreat since his property was being stolen...
Maybe I'm wrong but I thought in FL the SYG & SD laws did not protect your property unless it was in your home.
Like if someone is breaking into my car I can't pull my gun out & threaten them or shoot them. Or if someone walks up to me & snatches a chain around my neck I can't pull my gun out & shoot them.

unit1069
08-13-2012, 21:56
Because the Radical Left is conducting jihad against the US Constitution I automatically dismiss anything the Huffington Post writes.

Reading the Huffpo piece what immediately strikes me is how much factual information the author has omitted.

But for those inclined to excuse criminal behavior I will point out that the victim witnessed a felony, attempted to recover his stolen property, and when attacked with a deadly instrument (bag of stolen radios --- implements made of steel with sharp edges) he defended himself using the means he had to defend himself.

Without knowing the full facts of the case it's hard to make a reasoned judgment but I trust the judge who ruled in this case far more than I trust the hate-America Huffpo Internet rag.