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Kingarthurhk
08-10-2012, 01:32
I wanted to examine some elements of faith. I see it kicked around the forums quite a bit.

Hebrews 11:

"Now faith is confidence in what we hope for <sup class="crossreference" value='(A (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30174A))'></sup> and assurance about what we do not see. <sup class="crossreference" value='(B (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30174B))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">2 </sup>This is what the ancients were commended for. <sup class="crossreference" value='(C (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30175C))'></sup>
<sup class="versenum">3 </sup>By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, <sup class="crossreference" value='(D (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30176D))'></sup> so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

<sup class="versenum">4 </sup>By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended <sup class="crossreference" value='(E (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30177E))'></sup> as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings. <sup class="crossreference" value='(F (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30177F))'></sup> And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead. <sup class="crossreference" value='(G (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30177G))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">5 </sup>By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.”<sup class="footnote" value='[a (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-30178a)]'>[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+11&version=NIV#fen-NIV-30178a)]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(H (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30178H))'></sup> For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. <sup class="versenum">6 </sup>And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him <sup class="crossreference" value='(I (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30179I))'></sup> must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

<sup class="versenum">7 </sup>By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, <sup class="crossreference" value='(J (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30180J))'></sup> in holy fear built an ark <sup class="crossreference" value='(K (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30180K))'></sup> to save his family. <sup class="crossreference" value='(L (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30180L))'></sup> By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith. <sup class="crossreference" value='(M (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30180M))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">8 </sup>By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, <sup class="crossreference" value='(N (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30181N))'></sup> obeyed and went, <sup class="crossreference" value='(O (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30181O))'></sup> even though he did not know where he was going. <sup class="versenum">9 </sup>By faith he made his home in the promised land <sup class="crossreference" value='(P (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30182P))'></sup> like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, <sup class="crossreference" value='(Q (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30182Q))'></sup> as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. <sup class="crossreference" value='(R (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30182R))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">10 </sup>For he was looking forward to the city <sup class="crossreference" value='(S (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30183S))'></sup> with foundations, <sup class="crossreference" value='(T (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30183T))'></sup> whose architect and builder is God. <sup class="crossreference" value='(U (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30183U))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">11 </sup>And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, <sup class="crossreference" value='(V (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30184V))'></sup> was enabled to bear children <sup class="crossreference" value='(W (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30184W))'></sup> because she<sup class="footnote" value=''>[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+11&version=NIV#fen-NIV-30184b)]</sup> considered him faithful <sup class="crossreference" value='(X (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30184X))'></sup> who had made the promise. <sup class="versenum">12 </sup>And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, <sup class="crossreference" value='(Y (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30185Y))'></sup> came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore. <sup class="crossreference" value='(Z (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30185Z))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">13 </sup>All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; <sup class="crossreference" value='(AA (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30186AA))'></sup> they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AB (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30186AB))'></sup> admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AC (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30186AC))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">14 </sup>People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. <sup class="versenum">15 </sup>If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AD (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30188AD))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">16 </sup>Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AE (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30189AE))'></sup> Therefore God is not ashamed <sup class="crossreference" value='(AF (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30189AF))'></sup> to be called their God, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AG (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30189AG))'></sup> for he has prepared a city <sup class="crossreference" value='(AH (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30189AH))'></sup> for them.

<sup class="versenum">17 </sup>By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AI (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30190AI))'></sup> He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, <sup class="versenum">18 </sup>even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”<sup class="footnote" value='[c (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-30191c)]'>[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+11&version=NIV#fen-NIV-30191c)]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(AJ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30191AJ))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">19 </sup>Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AK (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30192AK))'></sup> and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death.

<sup class="versenum">20 </sup>By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AL (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30193AL))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">21 </sup>By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph’s sons, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AM (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30194AM))'></sup> and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.

<sup class="versenum">22 </sup>By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions concerning the burial of his bones. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AN (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30195AN))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">23 </sup>By faith Moses’ parents hid him for three months after he was born, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AO (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30196AO))'></sup> because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king’s edict. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AP (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30196AP))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">24 </sup>By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh’s daughter. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AQ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30197AQ))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">25 </sup>He chose to be mistreated <sup class="crossreference" value='(AR (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30198AR))'></sup> along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. <sup class="versenum">26 </sup>He regarded disgrace <sup class="crossreference" value='(AS (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30199AS))'></sup> for the sake of Christ <sup class="crossreference" value='(AT (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30199AT))'></sup> as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AU (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30199AU))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">27 </sup>By faith he left Egypt, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AV (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30200AV))'></sup> not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. <sup class="versenum">28 </sup>By faith he kept the Passover and the application of blood, so that the destroyer <sup class="crossreference" value='(AW (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30201AW))'></sup> of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AX (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30201AX))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">29 </sup>By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AY (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30202AY))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">30 </sup>By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the army had marched around them for seven days. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AZ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30203AZ))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">31 </sup>By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.<sup class="footnote" value='[d (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-30204d)]'>[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+11&version=NIV#fen-NIV-30204d)]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(BA (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30204BA))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">32 </sup>And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, <sup class="crossreference" value='(BB (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30205BB))'></sup> Barak, <sup class="crossreference" value='(BC (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30205BC))'></sup> Samson <sup class="crossreference" value='(BD (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30205BD))'></sup> and Jephthah, <sup class="crossreference" value='(BE (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30205BE))'></sup> about David <sup class="crossreference" value='(BF (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30205BF))'></sup> and Samuel <sup class="crossreference" value='(BG (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30205BG))'></sup> and the prophets, <sup class="versenum">33 </sup>who through faith conquered kingdoms, <sup class="crossreference" value='(BH (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30206BH))'></sup> administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, <sup class="crossreference" value='(BI (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30206BI))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">34 </sup>quenched the fury of the flames, <sup class="crossreference" value='(BJ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30207BJ))'></sup> and escaped the edge of the sword; <sup class="crossreference" value='(BK (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30207BK))'></sup> whose weakness was turned to strength; <sup class="crossreference" value='(BL (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30207BL))'></sup> and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. <sup class="crossreference" value='(BM (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30207BM))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">35 </sup>Women received back their dead, raised to life again. <sup class="crossreference" value='(BN (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30208BN))'></sup> There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection. <sup class="versenum">36 </sup>Some faced jeers and flogging, <sup class="crossreference" value='(BO (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30209BO))'></sup> and even chains and imprisonment. <sup class="crossreference" value='(BP (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30209BP))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">37 </sup>They were put to death by stoning;<sup class="footnote" value='[e (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-30210e)]'>[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+11&version=NIV#fen-NIV-30210e)]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(BQ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30210BQ))'></sup> they were sawed in two; they were killed by the sword. <sup class="crossreference" value='(BR (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30210BR))'></sup> They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, <sup class="crossreference" value='(BS (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30210BS))'></sup> destitute, persecuted and mistreated— <sup class="versenum">38 </sup>the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, living in caves <sup class="crossreference" value='(BT (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30211BT))'></sup> and in holes in the ground.

<sup class="versenum">39 </sup>These were all commended <sup class="crossreference" value='(BU (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30212BU))'></sup> for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, <sup class="crossreference" value='(BV (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30212BV))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">40 </sup>since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us <sup class="crossreference" value='(BW (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30213BW))'></sup> would they be made perfect."

Acts 17:11-12, "Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, <sup class="crossreference" value='(T (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-27535T))'></sup> for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures <sup class="crossreference" value='(U (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-27535U))'></sup> every day to see if what Paul said was true. <sup class="crossreference" value='(V (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-27535V))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">12 </sup>As a result, many of them believed, as did also a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men."

[B]Matthew 8:5-13, "When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. <sup class="versenum">6 </sup>“Lord,” he said, “my servant lies at home paralyzed, <sup class="crossreference" value='(H (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23352H))'></sup> suffering terribly.”
<sup class="versenum">7 </sup>Jesus said to him, “Shall I come and heal him?”

<sup class="versenum">8 </sup>The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. <sup class="crossreference" value='(I (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23354I))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">9 </sup>For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”

<sup class="versenum">10 </sup>When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. <sup class="crossreference" value='(J (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23356J))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">11 </sup>I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, <sup class="crossreference" value='(K (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23357K))'></sup> and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. <sup class="crossreference" value='(L (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23357L))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">12 </sup>But the subjects of the kingdom <sup class="crossreference" value='(M (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23358M))'></sup> will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” <sup class="crossreference" value='(N (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23358N))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">13 </sup>Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would.” <sup class="crossreference" value='(O (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23359O))'></sup> And his servant was healed at that moment."

NMG26
08-10-2012, 04:05
I wanted to examine some elements of faith. I see it kicked around the forums quite a bit.


"Now faith is confidence in what we hope for <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;<a href=" http:="" www.glocktalk.com="" forums="" #cen-niv-30174a&quot;"="" target="_blank">http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30174A" target="_blank">A)"></sup> and assurance about what we do not see. <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;<a href=" http:="" www.glocktalk.com="" forums="" #cen-niv-30174b&quot;"="" target="_blank">http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30174B" target="_blank">B)"></sup> <sup class="versenum">2 </sup>This is what the ancients were commended for. <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;<a href=" http:="" www.glocktalk.com="" forums="" #cen-niv-30175c&quot;"="" target="_blank">http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30175C" target="_blank">C)"></sup>
<sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;<a href=" http:="" www.glocktalk.com="" forums="" #cen-niv-23358n&quot;"="" target="_blank">http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23358N" target="_blank">N)"></sup>

<sup class="versenum">13 </sup>Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would.” <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;<a href=" http:="" www.glocktalk.com="" forums="" #cen-niv-23359o&quot;"="" target="_blank">http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23359O" target="_blank">O)"></sup> And his servant was healed at that moment."

Faith is a tool.

If God can bring mankind to His faith, God is able to save them.
If the Devil can bring mankind to His faith, then he is able to destroy them.

If the politician can make you believe he is the best candidate, he gets your vote.

Faith changes with more information.
If you once believed in a candidate, 4 years might have brought you to a place where you no longer believe. Experience changes faith.

"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. And not only [so], but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope: And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us."

Faith brings us to a place that we have confidence, through experience, and to a place where the theist, knows God.

Norske
08-10-2012, 16:39
Faith is a dishonest tool, used by a self-appointed minority to lord it over a gullible, subservient majority.

Vic Hays
08-10-2012, 16:59
I wanted to examine some elements of faith. I see it kicked around the forums quite a bit.


While Hebrews 11 has good examples of faith the definition is in verse 6.

Faith consists of two elements:

1. Believing that God exists

2. Believing that God rewards those who diligently seek Him

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that comes to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Faith is a gift from God not something that we will from within ourselves.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

NMG26
08-10-2012, 18:22
Faith is a gift from God not something that we will from within ourselves.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Got to love the gift of faith. I differ with you though. We do indeed find it within. It is there and it is available to all.

Faith is taught to us as we grow up. We learn to "believe" as we learn and grow. We are told what to believe as children. The only way to really find God is to look within and work on the things that we believe. We are responsible in the end for out faith. God does not give us a faith that does not require work. If you believed everything that is taught to you and do not exercise your will to check the results of that faith, you never are truly free from destructive doctrine.

NMG26
08-10-2012, 18:27
Faith is a dishonest tool, used by a self-appointed minority to lord it over a gullible, subservient majority.

The word faith and believe are used interchangeable often.

I have faith, but I do not follow any cult. No one can push me around regarding faith.

Your statement is true, for those that do not own their faith.

Cavalry Doc
08-10-2012, 18:50
Faith is a dishonest tool, used by a self-appointed minority to lord it over a gullible, subservient majority.

Do you believe that no deity has ever existed??? :dunno:

Norske
08-10-2012, 19:25
Do you believe that no deity has ever existed??? :dunno:

I do not know that any deity either has, or has not existed. :dunno:

I do not believe that anyone else actually knows whether any deity either has, or has not, existed either.

I believe the uncertainty over the question has been used, by unscrupulous "clergymen/politicians", to control the lives, beliefs, and actions of the gullible majorities around themselves.

To demand the time, treasure, blood, and lives of the gullible majority to support their own mortal lifestyle.

All over an unprovable, superstitious, unprovable "belief" in a supernatural being that they can never seem to actually prove actually exists or not.

And for what? Always, an unsubstantiated promise that if the gullible majority continues to render up their time, treasure blood, and lives, that they will "earn" a "better afterlife" after they die!

If of course, the gullible peon, having sacrificed his time, treasure, blood, and all too often, his very life on those promises of his clergy, finds out after he dies that the promises were false, he is no longer in any position to demand a refund, now is he?

Meanwhile, the clergy who sold him that bill of goods, still here on this mortal coil, remain free to continue to sell the same bill of goods to others of the mortal gullible.

Day after week after month after year after decade after century after millenia.

Gods change.

New religions form.

Schisms arise within old religions.

Old religions die.

But there remain two constants, and two constants only.

(1) A Religion of some kind.

(2) Clergymen who make their mortal livings by selling promises about an afterliffe they cannot prove to be true nor be held accountable for if false.

But, 99.999999% of the gullible majority continue to buy the Kool Aide. Sometimes literally, in the case of the followers of the "Reverend" Jim Jones.

They sum up the Kool Aide in one word.

"Faith".

Day after week after month after year after decade after century after millenia.

:upeyes:

Vic Hays
08-10-2012, 22:27
Got to love the gift of faith. I differ with you though. We do indeed find it within. It is there and it is available to all.



Faith is available to all, but few accept the free gift.

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lights every man that comes into the world.
1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Syclone538
08-10-2012, 22:39
Do you believe that no deity has ever existed??? :dunno:

Do you understand the difference between these statements?
"I believe no deity has ever existed."
and
"I do not believe any deity has ever existed."

Kingarthurhk
08-11-2012, 02:06
Do you understand the difference between these statements?
"I believe no deity has ever existed."
and
"I do not believe any deity has ever existed."

Both elements have a belief associated with them. Adding a negative does not fundamentally change the concept.

NMG26
08-11-2012, 05:37
And for what? Always, an unsubstantiated promise that if the gullible majority continues to render up their time, treasure blood, and lives, that they will "earn" a "better afterlife" after they die!

Faith is not just about when you die. Faith is for life in the now. A good example is Alcohol Anonymous. To beat his adiction the alcoholic can rely on a higher power for help and recover from his destructive life style. It does not matter if there is a higher power or not.........his faith has healed him.

Faith seems to be an essential element for growth and exploration in this life. If we never learned to trust our intuition, we would be robots. Through the use of faith we learn to trust ourselves. Some learn to connect to a teacher from within, that they "believe" is not themselves. The belief in a connection to something that is not themselves is a comfort, immediate help, courage pill, and an answer to the questions that only faith can answer.

We make stuff up. We experiment to see if the made up stuff works or not. If it works, we keep is as part of our experience base. I am a theist by choice. I can not prove that there is a deity or not. I can prove the profit of faith in my life.

NMG26
08-11-2012, 05:48
Faith is available to all, but few accept the free gift.


Don't be so hard on your neighbor.

It takes faith to love. It takes faith to smile. It takes faith in humanity to get up in the morning and do the same thing you did yesterday. There are rewards to faith everyday.

I met a lady who lost her faith in humanity.........so she said. She was addicted to pot and meth. She renounced her religion and acted the fool. She still believed that when she died she was going to either heaven or hell.

I told her that I did not believe in a future heaven or hell.

She asked where we go when we die?

I said I have no idea.

I did not have the time to help her with her lose of faith in humanity, except to be the best human I could be to her, in the time we chatted. I found the encounter challenging and thought provoking.

People need tools to question their own faith in order to overcome the blind faith they have been given.






.

Vic Hays
08-11-2012, 09:12
Do you understand the difference between these statements?
"I believe no deity has ever existed."
and
"I do not believe any deity has ever existed."

The difference could be that the first is atheistic and the second is agnostic.

Syclone538
08-11-2012, 09:32
Both elements have a belief associated with them. Adding a negative does not fundamentally change the concept.

What belief is associated with the second statement?

Syclone538
08-11-2012, 09:34
The difference could be that the first is atheistic and the second is agnostic.

The second is atheist and agnostic. The first is atheist, but gnostic vs agnostic wouldn't be clear from only that sentence.

snowbird
08-11-2012, 11:06
99.999999% of the gullible majority continue to buy the Kool Aide. Sometimes literally, in the case of the followers of the "Reverend" Jim Jones.

You are correct in implying that people should be careful about which leader they follow. The Bible says that we should be as wise as serpents.

Jim Jones cynically admitted, "I decided how can I demonstrate my Marxism? The thought was, infiltrate the church". A Methodist superintendent, whom Jones met through the American Communist Party, helped him. Before the 1960s, Jones did not reveal that his gospel was actually communism. But he did preach that the US was the Antichrist (sounds like Obama's and Wright's 'church', or like the Black Muslims). He derided traditional Christianity and the Bible as white men's justification to dominate women (recall how this hypocrite used his congregation to find bedmates:upeyes:) and enslave people of color (which is exactly what he did on his Guyana commune before he had all die in mass suicide/murder, as numerous other atheist communists have done).

The Bible says by their works ye shall know them.

Question leftist-atheist authority. The life you save may be your own.

Guss
08-11-2012, 12:50
They say that faith can move mountains, but if you actually have a mountain to move, you'd best be talking with the Caterpillar Corporation instead of wearing out your knees.

hogfish
08-11-2012, 14:23
Faith is the 'necessary requirement' (red.) to become POTUS.

:sigh:

Kingarthurhk
08-11-2012, 14:25
Faith is the 'necessary requirement' (red.) to become POTUS.

:sigh:

Odd, I thought it required enormous ammounts of money, a political machine, and a sense of entitlement and ruthlesness.

hogfish
08-11-2012, 14:35
Odd, I thought it required enormous ammounts of money, a political machine, and a sense of entitlement and ruthlesness.

True, but all that can be someone else's for your use. The faith must be yours (or, at minimum, you must 'claim' it as yours).

:)

Altaris
08-11-2012, 19:07
Faith/Belief is that which has no evidence.


When I walk off of the roof of my house, I don't need faith. My faith/belief that I will float or fall is meaningless in the face of the overwhelming evidence that says gravity will take over and I will fall.

Altaris
08-11-2012, 19:07
Odd, I thought it required enormous ammounts of money, a political machine, and a sense of entitlement and ruthlesness.

Now that is one thing I can agree with you on :supergrin:

NMG26
08-11-2012, 19:13
Faith/Belief is that which has no evidence.


Do you consider experience as evidence?

Altaris
08-11-2012, 23:43
Do you consider experience as evidence?

If you can test, replicate, and verify why that experience happened, and other people can do the same, then yes.

Cavalry Doc
08-12-2012, 05:27
I do not know that any deity either has, or has not existed. :dunno:

I do not believe that anyone else actually knows whether any deity either has, or has not, existed either.

I believe the uncertainty over the question has been used, by unscrupulous "clergymen/politicians", to control the lives, beliefs, and actions of the gullible majorities around themselves.

To demand the time, treasure, blood, and lives of the gullible majority to support their own mortal lifestyle.

All over an unprovable, superstitious, unprovable "belief" in a supernatural being that they can never seem to actually prove actually exists or not.

And for what? Always, an unsubstantiated promise that if the gullible majority continues to render up their time, treasure blood, and lives, that they will "earn" a "better afterlife" after they die!

If of course, the gullible peon, having sacrificed his time, treasure, blood, and all too often, his very life on those promises of his clergy, finds out after he dies that the promises were false, he is no longer in any position to demand a refund, now is he?

Meanwhile, the clergy who sold him that bill of goods, still here on this mortal coil, remain free to continue to sell the same bill of goods to others of the mortal gullible.

Day after week after month after year after decade after century after millenia.

Gods change.

New religions form.

Schisms arise within old religions.

Old religions die.

But there remain two constants, and two constants only.

(1) A Religion of some kind.

(2) Clergymen who make their mortal livings by selling promises about an afterliffe they cannot prove to be true nor be held accountable for if false.

But, 99.999999% of the gullible majority continue to buy the Kool Aide. Sometimes literally, in the case of the followers of the "Reverend" Jim Jones.

They sum up the Kool Aide in one word.

"Faith".

Day after week after month after year after decade after century after millenia.

:upeyes:

Maybe your ire needs more than one word??

"faith in god" seems to fit better. Because it seems you have faith no god exists.

Faith doesn't have to be a bad thing.

Cavalry Doc
08-12-2012, 05:32
Do you understand the difference between these statements?
"I believe no deity has ever existed."
and
"I do not believe any deity has ever existed."

Of course I do. And Merriam-Webster and I agree that one of them meets the definition of atheism, the other is close, but not quite there. Some people sure do act like they believe there is no deity even though they say they just lack belief. Some are obvious, they post on Internet forums prosthyletizing thieir faith to others.

NMG26
08-12-2012, 11:48
If you can test, replicate, and verify why that experience happened, and other people can do the same, then yes.

I can't speak for other people. My experience is that faith in God has positive results in my life.


Faith/Belief is that which has no evidence.


The only evidence I have is my own experience.

What is the evidence of love?

What is the evidence of hope?

What is the evidence of faith?

Love manifests in kindness, concern, care and action. There is love.

Hope manifests in a not giving up, a looking forward, strength to carry on. There is hope.

Faith manifests in getting an end result, reason to live, hope, and love for our fellow man. There is faith.

There is good reason for all these things that only evidence is the results. It does not happen exactly same for everyone.

People loose faith.

When faith is lost, it results in a morbidity.

Here is one of my favorite verses from the Bible.

"For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace."

Faith in spirituality brings life and peace. I've proven it to myself, and others have proven it themselves, but it is up to each person to find life and peace in themselves.

Norske
08-12-2012, 17:20
Maybe your ire needs more than one word??

"faith in god" seems to fit better. Because it seems you have faith no god exists.

Faith doesn't have to be a bad thing.

The Crusades.

The Inquisition.

Witch Burnings.

The 30 Years war.

9/11/01

Those were not instigated by aetheists and agnostics.

They were instigated and conducted by men of "Faith".

Who were convinced they were doing "God"s work"!

Faith breeds fanatics.

I do not know whether God exists or not.

I do not think that anyone else knows either.

I do know "Faith" is not worth the time, treasure, blood and lives sacrificed in it's name.

Amen

:dunno:

Cavalry Doc
08-13-2012, 15:35
The Crusades.

The Inquisition.

Witch Burnings.

The 30 Years war.

9/11/01

Those were not instigated by aetheists and agnostics.

They were instigated and conducted by men of "Faith".

Who were convinced they were doing "God"s work"!

Faith breeds fanatics.

I do not know whether God exists or not.

I do not think that anyone else knows either.

I do know "Faith" is not worth the time, treasure, blood and lives sacrificed in it's name.

Amen

:dunno:

It takes an intentionally slanted perspective to just look at the bad. Lots of charity has also been done by religious people.

Bad things that people do to each other is magnified by cooperation. Tribal, governmental, special interests, criminal organizations.... The list goes on.

I'm not going to defend the bad, because it's bad. Well, not all of it anyway. I used to work for an organization whose primary task was to kill people and break things.

Meh? :dunno:

Schabesbert
08-13-2012, 16:30
It takes an intentionally slanted perspective to just look at the bad. Lots of charity has also been done by religious people.

Bad things that people do to each other is magnified by cooperation. Tribal, governmental, special interests, criminal organizations.... The list goes on.

I'm not going to defend the bad, because it's bad. Well, not all of it anyway. I used to work for an organization whose primary task was to kill people and break things.

Meh? :dunno:
Good point.

It's interesting how some people throw out those words without really understanding the nuance behind it.

For example, the Crusades (there were, depending on how you count, nine). Most had virtuous reasons for being fought. Yes, some of the generals and knights used these battles as an excuse to plunder and commit atrocities, but in doing so they were going against their orders. It's like using the My Lai Massacre to explain why the US is evil and should be overthrown. Worse, in some respects, given the level of communication (weeks, IF a courier could get through).

Kingarthurhk
08-13-2012, 17:10
Good point.

It's interesting how some people throw out those words without really understanding the nuance behind it.

For example, the Crusades (there were, depending on how you count, nine). Most had virtuous reasons for being fought. Yes, some of the generals and knights used these battles as an excuse to plunder and commit atrocities, but in doing so they were going against their orders. It's like using the My Lai Massacre to explain why the US is evil and should be overthrown. Worse, in some respects, given the level of communication (weeks, IF a courier could get through).

Please do tell us about how virtuous the Crusades where.

Vic Hays
08-13-2012, 17:12
Maybe your ire needs more than one word??

"faith in god" seems to fit better. Because it seems you have faith no god exists.

Faith doesn't have to be a bad thing.

Actually it is faith that no other god except themselves exist.

Schabesbert
08-13-2012, 17:20
Please do tell us about how virtuous the Crusades where.
Please educate yourself.
There are books for this kind of thing.

Like I said, there are many complications. You have not shown yourself capable of nor interested in pursuit of the Truth.

Most of the Crusades were for the purpose of saving or liberating peoples from the Moslem invaders.

Your hatred of the Church that Jesus started blinds you to that fact.

I would have thought that you'd see the virtue in turning back the Moslems.

Vic Hays
08-13-2012, 17:22
Please do tell us about how virtuous the Crusades where.

The king of the North and the king of the South have been at war for an extended amount of time. Just before the second coming of Jesus the king of the South who is traditionally from around the area of modern Turkey will overrun Israel it appears. The Muslim Brotherhood is gaining power as the dictators from various countries are overthrown. Islam is expecting a Caliphate to form and that they will rule the world. How come so many people want to rule the world?

Daniel 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.
11:41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.
11:42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
11:43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.
11:44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.
12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Kingarthurhk
08-13-2012, 17:25
Please educate yourself.
There are books for this kind of thing.

Like I said, there are many complications. You have not shown yourself capable of nor interested in pursuit of the Truth.

Most of the Crusades were for the purpose of saving or liberating peoples from the Moslem invaders.

Your hatred of the Church that Jesus started blinds you to that fact.

I would have thought that you'd see the virtue in turning back the Moslems.

There are, and none of them have I found virtuous. So, I would like you to expound on exactly what you find virtuous.

Kingarthurhk
08-13-2012, 17:28
The king of the North and the king of the South have been at war for an extended amount of time. Just before the second coming of Jesus the king of the South who is traditionally from around the area of modern Turkey will overrun Israel it appears. The Muslim Brotherhood is gaining power as the dictators from various countries are overthrown. Islam is expecting a Caliphate to form and that they will rule the world. How come so many people want to rule the world?

Daniel 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.
11:41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.
11:42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
11:43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.
11:44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.
12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

I have my own private theory on that. I suspect when the false Christ comes, he could bring another impersonation of the 12th Imam and unite the two under the final cause, along with convincing Judaism their Messiah has arrived. Then the whole world will wonder after the Beast.

Schabesbert
08-13-2012, 18:04
There are, and none of them have I found virtuous. So, I would like you to expound on exactly what you find virtuous.
You seem to stop reading after about half-way. Is it an attention-span deficit problem?

Turning back the Muslim invaders is virtuous.

Norske
08-13-2012, 18:13
It takes an intentionally slanted perspective to just look at the bad. Lots of charity has also been done by religious people.

Doc, just about every society pretty only talks about the "good" of religion and completely ignores and suppresses the "bad".

I just try to point out that the bad in religion actually outweighs the good.

Religion is not worth the price we pay for it in time, treasure, blood and lives.

Never has been. Never will be.

Bad things that people do to each other is magnified by cooperation. Tribal, governmental, special interests, criminal organizations.... The list goes on.

Offensive violence is always immoral. Defensive violence is always moral. This holds true whether we are talking about individuals or governments or groups in between.

At the level of individuals, it is called "crime". At the level of governments it is called "war". But the underlying morality is just the same.

In my book, the US fought immoral, offensive wars against the Mexicans in the 1840's, the Indians for just about the entire 19th Century, and the Spanish-American war.

We should have simply stayed out of WW1; we really did not have a valid reason to involve ourselves.

Every other war the US has fought has been defensive, and morally correct.

I'm not going to defend the bad, because it's bad. Well, not all of it anyway. I used to work for an organization whose primary task was to kill people and break things.

Meh? :dunno:

It takes two sides to agree to live in peace. But it only takes one side to force both into war.

When faced with an aggressor, the options are fight, run, or submit.

When talking war, as the defender, running is not an option.

Which leaves submit or fight.

To submit to an aggressor is never "right". Another word for it is "slavery".

Which leaves, fight.

Fight so your society, will survive, and your family will flourish.

Thank you for your service.

Vic Hays
08-13-2012, 18:13
You seem to stop reading after about half-way. Is it an attention-span deficit problem?

Turning back the Muslim invaders is virtuous.

So now we know who the King of the North is. He is the one fighting against the Muslim invaders from the South.

Norske
08-13-2012, 18:27
Please do tell us about how virtuous the Crusades where.

The Crusades were a failed attempt by the Western Roman Catholics to recover lands taken away from the Eastern Orthodox Catholics, Byzantines, by Islam.

Islam was, and to this day remains, an aggressive, and thereby fundamentally immoral, religion.

Islam has been held in check by Western technological, and thereby military, superiority ever since the battle of Diu.

Today, our best defense against aggressive Islam is to insist on universal secular government that maintains respect for the liberties of the individual.

When religion is denied the coercive authority of government, it cannot expand by force.

High-Gear
08-13-2012, 18:46
You are correct in implying that people should be careful about which leader they follow. The Bible says that we should be as wise as serpents.

Jim Jones cynically admitted, "I decided how can I demonstrate my Marxism? The thought was, infiltrate the church". A Methodist superintendent, whom Jones met through the American Communist Party, helped him. Before the 1960s, Jones did not reveal that his gospel was actually communism. But he did preach that the US was the Antichrist (sounds like Obama's and Wright's 'church', or like the Black Muslims). He derided traditional Christianity and the Bible as white men's justification to dominate women (recall how this hypocrite used his congregation to find bedmates:upeyes:) and enslave people of color (which is exactly what he did on his Guyana commune before he had all die in mass suicide/murder, as numerous other atheist communists have done).

The Bible says by their works ye shall know them.

Question leftist-atheist authority. The life you save may be your own.

What atheist communities do you speak of? Which ones enslaved people before having them commit suicide? Cite your source!

Norske
08-13-2012, 19:13
What atheist communities do you speak of? Which ones enslaved people before having them commit suicide? Cite your source!

There are really only three types of government.

Monarchial/Theocratic

Monarchal/Secular without respect for the rights of the individual.

Secular with respect for the rights of the individual.

Examples of Monarchial/Theocratic governments are legion throughout history. We really did not see examples of the lstter two until just the last few hundred years.

Monarchial/Secular without respect for the rights of the individual just take the same form as Monarchial/Theocratic, but simply substitue the concept of "God" with equally nebulour concepts such as "Aryan Superiority" and "Dictatorshop of the Proletariate". So-called "modern" government systems such as Nazism/Fascism and Communism are just re-invented Monarchies.

The only just system is the third; Secular with respect for the rights of the Individual, of which the United States of America based on a written Constitution with a controlling Bill of Rights, is the primary modern example.

Mankind needs to scrap all Monarchial/Theocratic and Monarchial/Secular systems, whenever and whereever found.

And adopt universal Secular government with respect for the rights of the individual.

:dunno:

Syclone538
08-13-2012, 21:17
Doc, just about every society pretty only talks about the "good" of religion and completely ignores and suppresses the "bad".

I just try to point out that the bad in religion actually outweighs the good.

Religion is not worth the price we pay for it in time, treasure, blood and lives.

Never has been. Never will be.



Offensive violence is always immoral. Defensive violence is always moral. This holds true whether we are talking about individuals or governments or groups in between.

At the level of individuals, it is called "crime". At the level of governments it is called "war". But the underlying morality is just the same.

In my book, the US fought immoral, offensive wars against the Mexicans in the 1840's, the Indians for just about the entire 19th Century, and the Spanish-American war.

We should have simply stayed out of WW1; we really did not have a valid reason to involve ourselves.

Every other war the US has fought has been defensive, and morally correct.



It takes two sides to agree to live in peace. But it only takes one side to force both into war.

When faced with an aggressor, the options are fight, run, or submit.

When talking war, as the defender, running is not an option.

Which leaves submit or fight.

To submit to an aggressor is never "right". Another word for it is "slavery".

Which leaves, fight.

Fight so your society, will survive, and your family will flourish.

Thank you for your service.

I don't know if you watch Stefan Molyneu, but if you don't you should check him out.


If the U.S. hadn't fought in WW1, the Treaty of Versailles might not have been as one sided, and Hitler might not have come to power.

Syclone538
08-13-2012, 21:18
Actually it is faith that no other god except themselves exist.

I'm not a god, and don't claim to be.

Animal Mother
08-13-2012, 21:46
For example, the Crusades (there were, depending on how you count, nine). Most had virtuous reasons for being fought. What were the virtuous reasons for the Albigensian Crusade.
Yes, some of the generals and knights used these battles as an excuse to plunder and commit atrocities, but in doing so they were going against their orders. Orders from whom exactly?

Kingarthurhk
08-14-2012, 05:34
You seem to stop reading after about half-way. Is it an attention-span deficit problem?

Turning back the Muslim invaders is virtuous.

That was Charles Martel and his paladins. That wasn't a crusade.

I am referring to crusades, such as the one when, aftering having Huss burned at the stake, Pope Martin V issued a bull for a crusade on March 17, 1420 against all of Bohemia to for the the destruction of the Wycliffites, Hussites and all other heretics in Bohemia.

Or maybe Pope Innocent III's children crusade in 1212 where he sent children to expell Muslims from Jerusalem.

The Albagensian Crusade, also by Innocent to eliminate Albagensians and Cathars.

The a follow up on this with the Inquisition in Tollouse in 1229 by Bernard Gui under Pope Gregory IX.

Or maybe the Aragonese Crusade declared by Pove Martin IV against the King of Aargon, Peter III from 1284-1285, where he was officially deposed as king.

Then there is the iroinc Stedinger Crusade against fellow Catholics from 1232 and 1234 against the free Frisian farmers who refused to give up their freedom to the count of Oldenburg and the archbishop of Bremen-Hamburg. The acrchbishop excommunicated them, and Pope Gregory IX declared a crusade against the Frisian's who where defeated in 1234.

The Despener's Crusade, or the war between the two would be popes of Clement VII and Pope Urban VI.

Were any of the above, in your opinion, virtuous?

NMG26
08-14-2012, 07:38
Interesting that a thread on faith turns into a Crusades finger pointing match.

I guess the Catholics can never live down what their religion had a hand in all those years ago. Maybe they should just make a public apology and live with the fact that they were messed up back then?

People have a hard time admitting that their religion was wrong.

I guess it means their faith was wrong.

Schabesbert
08-14-2012, 15:45
Interesting that a thread on faith turns into a Crusades finger pointing match.

I guess the Catholics can never live down what their religion had a hand in all those years ago. Maybe they should just make a public apology and live with the fact that they were messed up back then?
There have been times when the Church was messed up; we freely admit that. What we have to constantly battle, though, is propaganda such as that put out by Kingarthurhk which makes the Church out to be much, much, much worse than is historically accurate.

This has been the case since the Church's founding, when one of the 12 hand-picked Apostles was complicit in the murder of the Son of God (Deicide), the worst crime ever perpetrated.

Jesus Himself pointed out that the Church would, until the end of time, contain weeds among the wheat (sinners among saints):

Mt 13:24 Another parable he put before them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field;
25 but while men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away.
26 So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also.
27 And the servants of the householder came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then has it weeds?'
28 He said to them, 'An enemy has done this.' The servants said to him, 'Then do you want us to go and gather them?'
29 But he said, 'No; lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest; and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.'"

What did He mean by "the kingdom of heaven"? He didn't mean the Church in Heaven, since that won't contain sinners. No, He meant the Church here on Earth.

He also went on to teach that the Church would, in time, "look" different than what He was establishing:
Mt 13:31 Another parable he put before them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven is like a grain of mustard seed which a man took and sowed in his field;
32 it is the smallest of all seeds, but when it has grown it is the greatest of shrubs and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and make nests in its branches."

Yet, just as the mustard tree is organically the same as the seed, they appear different.

People have a hard time admitting that their religion was wrong.

I guess it means their faith was wrong.
This is precisely wrong. Even when some sinful men are involved, the Church has never taught doctrines that were contrary to the Truth. As Jesus promised.
King & Vic don't, apparently, take stock in His promises.

King & Vic are apparently convinced that their church doesn't contain sinners.

We believe that the Church isn't so much a museum for saints as it is a hospital for sinners.
The popes included. Our teaching is that, while under very strict and rare circumstances, he may teach infallibly, the pope is not impeccable. There is a huge difference. The Apostles, too, were sinners, and yet under certain conditions (i.e. when writing scriptures, when preaching the Gospel) they were also infallible. (Actually, their writing goes beyond infallible and is inspired. The distinction, without getting too far into it, is that infallibility is a negative charism, i.e., it prevents one from teaching wrongly, whereas inspiration, among other things, teaches what the Holy Spirit wanted to be taught.)

Kingarthurhk
08-14-2012, 16:21
Interesting that a thread on faith turns into a Crusades finger pointing match.

I guess the Catholics can never live down what their religion had a hand in all those years ago. Maybe they should just make a public apology and live with the fact that they were messed up back then?

People have a hard time admitting that their religion was wrong.

I guess it means their faith was wrong.

Actually, it is interesting. The usual modus operendi is to deny everything and maker counter allegations. As you can tell, he didn't answer my question, and said that historical fact was propaganda.

So, it makes me wonder exactly why?

Norske
08-14-2012, 16:49
Islam encroached on Roman Catholic lands just as they did Eastern Orthodox Byzantine lands.

The Roman Catholics were just more successful defending themselves than the Byzantines were.

Islam spread across the southern shore of the Med without much in the way of any resistance. Then crossed at Gibraltar and took over the Iberian peninsula and held it until they were finally tossed back across the straits by 1492.

As noted, their high water mark was Tours, France when and where Charles the Hammer stopped them butt-cold and pushed them back into Spain.

(By the way, the Muslim general who led the invasion of Spain was named "Tarik". "Jebel" is the word for "mountain". Jebel-Tarik. Tarik's Mountain. Gibraltar.)

What the Crusades did do for the Roman Catholics was teach them to fight Muslim armies in pre-gunpowder days.

They did so unsuccessfully in the Crusades, but it did give them the ability to fight Islam successfully in their continued, failed, attempts to make further encroachments against the Western Europeans on their home turf.

Who went on to invent Atlantic Ocean-capable, broadside cannon-equipped sailing ships, and out-of-sight-of-land navigational techniques that were the first of the European technological/military innovations that Islam could not match.

Once the Portagees made it around Africa and smashed the Muslim galleys at Diu, that was the end of Islamic expansion for the most part.

After that they largely held Islam to the lands it aquired before the Battle of Diu, and premitted western-European style society to spread and dominate the modern world.

Islam is still trying to dominate the world, though. Witness 9/11/01.

Kingarthurhk
08-14-2012, 16:57
Islam encroached on Roman Catholic lands just as they did Eastern Orthodox Byzantine lands.

The Roman Catholics were just more successful defending themselves than the Byzantines were.

Islam spread across the southern shore of the Med without much in the way of any resistance. Then crossed at Gibraltar and took over the Iberian peninsula and held it until they were finally tossed back across the straits by 1492.

As noted, their high water mark was Tours, France when and where Charles the Hammer stopped them butt-cold and pushed them back into Spain.

(By the way, the Muslim general who led the invasion of Spain was named "Tarik". "Jebel" is the word for "mountain". Jebel-Tarik. Tarik's Mountain. Gibraltar.)

What the Crusades did do for the Roman Catholics was teach them to fight Muslim armies in pre-gunpowder days.

They did so unsuccessfully in the Crusades, but it did give them the ability to fight Islam successfully in their continued, failed, attempts to make further encroachments against the Western Europeans on their home turf.

Who went on to invent Atlantic Ocean-capable, broadside cannon-equipped sailing ships, and out-of-sight-of-land navigational techniques that were the first of the European technological/military innovations that Islam could not match.

Once the Portagees made it around Africa and smashed the Muslim galleys at Diu, that was the end of Islamic expansion for the most part.

After that they largely held Islam to the lands it aquired before the Battle of Diu, and premitted western-European style society to spread and dominate the modern world.

Islam is still trying to dominate the world, though. Witness 9/11/01.

Charles Martel lived from 686-741, long before the Crusades...

Norske
08-14-2012, 17:03
I don't know if you watch Stefan Molyneu, but if you don't you should check him out.


If the U.S. hadn't fought in WW1, the Treaty of Versailles might not have been as one sided, and Hitler might not have come to power.

I think the biggest single mistake made in the beginning of the 20th Century was Kaiser Wilhelm II's decision to build a Battleship Navy instead of a Cruiser Navy.

That single act, more than anything else, drove the Brits into the French/Russian Axis.

Before that, the Brits and Germans had been firm allies all the way back to when Blucher turned Boney's flank and saved Wellington's bacon at Waterloo. KW the II was Queen Victoria's oldest Grandson, for heaven's sake!

WWI, if it had occurred at all, would have looked a whole lot different with the French/Russians on one side and the Brits/Germans/Austrio-Hunkies on the other.

That is what the line up would have been if WW1 had broken out about 1895 instead of 20 years later.

There might have been no WW1, no ToV, no WWII. No USSR, either. No Cold War. No Korea. No Vietnam. No Nukes.

:upeyes:

And we would not have gotten involved.

Norske
08-14-2012, 17:06
Charles Martel lived from 686-741, long before the Crusades...

Didn't say the Western Europeans did not know how to defend their own ground, given the home field advanctage, before the Crusades. Obviously, they could.

Islam won the Crusades because there, Islam had the home field advantage!

But after the Crusades, it only took the W-Europeans 200-300 years to kick the Muslims back across the Straits.

Where they have remained to this day.

Kingarthurhk
08-14-2012, 17:11
Didn't say the Western Europeans did not know how to defend their own ground, given the home field advanctage, before the Crusades. Obviously, they could.

Islam won the Crusades because there, Islam had the home field advantage!

But after the Crusades, it only took the W-Europeans 200-300 years to kick the Muslims back across the Straits.

Where they have remained to this day.

The last bastion of Moorish occupation was in Spain, that is why you will see some very Arabic words in the Spanish language. Ironically, when they left, hygene declined. They actually believed in bathing.:supergrin:

Vic Hays
08-14-2012, 17:16
What did He mean by "the kingdom of heaven"? He didn't mean the Church in Heaven, since that won't contain sinners. No, He meant the Church here on Earth.


Of course you mean the Roman Catholic Church. We believe that God's kingdom is yet to come upon the earth.

John 17:14 I have given them your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17:15 I pray not that you should take them out of the world, but that you should keep them from the evil.
17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17:17 Sanctify them through your truth: your word is truth.
17:18 As you have sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

God's kingdom does not coexist with the kingdoms of this world.

Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Vic Hays
08-14-2012, 17:27
Islam is still trying to dominate the world, though. Witness 9/11/01.

Yes, Witness Egypt, Libya

The king of the north and the king of the south are not yet finished. The glorious holy mountain is Jerusalem. Israel may get steamrolled yet.

Daniel
11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.
11:41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.
11:42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
11:43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.
11:44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.
11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

NMG26
08-14-2012, 17:32
Of course you mean the Roman Catholic Church. We believe that God's kingdom is yet to come upon the earth.

.

Who is we?

Lot's of Christians believe that God's kingdom is his people in the church now.

That is how faith is. Everyone has it, but it differs just a little here and there.

"Don't you know that you are the temple of God?"

I'd have to say that where God is, there his kingdom is.

"Don't you know that God is in you?"

Schabesbert
08-14-2012, 17:45
Actually, it is interesting. The usual modus operendi is to deny everything and maker counter allegations.
No, my usual modus operendi is to deny your lies and to counter it with the truth.

You're apparently so comfortable with that, that you can't tell the difference any more. Or you're beginning to borrow the concept of takia from the Muslims.

As you can tell, he didn't answer my question, and said that historical fact was propaganda.
No, I said that you often spout propaganda; I didn't say anything about your claims. It seems almost a tacit admission that it IS propaganda, though, since you're anticipating that it should be called that.

But since you seem intent on being further embarassed:


Originally Posted by Schabesbert
You seem to stop reading after about half-way. Is it an attention-span deficit problem?
I noticed that you didn't reply to the fact that you hadn't read my post before responding.
Originally Posted by Schabesbert
Turning back the Muslim invaders is virtuous.

That was Charles Martel and his paladins. That wasn't a crusade.
Really? You're going to claim that Charles "the Hammer" was the only one attempting to turn back the Muslim invaders, despite the history that everyone agrees on?

Heck, even Norske gets this one right.

I am referring to crusades, such as the one when, aftering having Huss burned at the stake, Pope Martin V issued a bull for a crusade on March 17, 1420 against all of Bohemia to for the the destruction of the Wycliffites, Hussites and all other heretics in Bohemia.
Oh, I see. You want to re-define crusades to mean "things which I think I can use to embarass the Catholic Church." Gee, I wonder why your "history" is so skewed.

Here's what Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades) has to say:
The Crusades were a series of religious expeditionary wars blessed by Pope Urban II and the Catholic Church, with the stated goal of restoring Christian access to the holy places in and near Jerusalem.
Oops. You must know something that they don't. :upeyes:

Or maybe Pope Innocent III's children crusade in 1212 where he sent children to expell Muslims from Jerusalem.
Let's see what Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children's_Crusade) says about this:
The Children's Crusade is the name given to a disastrous Crusade by European Catholic children to expel Muslims from the Holy Land said to have taken place in 1212.

The traditional narrative is probably conflated from some factual and mythical notions of the period including visions by a French or German boy, an intention to peacefully convert Muslims in the Holy Land to Christianity, bands of children marching to Italy, and children being sold into slavery.

A study published in 1977 cast doubt on the existence of these events, and many historians came to believe that they were not (or not primarily) children but multiple bands of "wandering poor" in Germany and France, some of whom tried to reach the Holy Land and others who never intended to do so. Early versions of events, of which there are many variations told over the centuries, are largely apocryphal.[1][2]


"Largely apocryphal." As in "not true."
When you repeat things that are "not true," if you know that to be the case, we call them lies. So, now I expect you to not mention these untrue stories again. Actually, I don't, since I've come to recognize that you're quite willint to repeat things that are "not true" even when you know that to be the case. Hmmm .... I wonder what that makes you?

The Albagensian Crusade, also by Innocent to eliminate Albagensians and Cathars.
Let's again turn to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albigensian_Crusade):
The Albigensian Crusade or Cathar Crusade (1209–1255) was a 45-year military campaign initiated by the Catholic Church to eliminate Catharism in Languedoc. The Crusade was prosecuted primarily by the French crown and promptly took on a political flavour, resulting in not only a significant reduction in the number of practicing Cathars but also a realignment of Occitania, bringing it into the sphere of the French crown and diminishing the distinct regional culture and high level of Aragonese influence.

This is a case where the Church leaders must be held to account, but again, as we can see, it isn't qute the bludgeon you pretend it to be, in your world.

The a follow up on this with the Inquisition in Tollouse in 1229 by Bernard Gui under Pope Gregory IX.
Ahh, I see. Conflating the Inquisitions with the Crusades. Well, this DOES keep consitant with your definition of the Crusades as I noted above. It's inaccurate (as we've come to expect from you).

Don't have the time to explain any more history to you; you wouldn't listen anyway.

And besides, as I explained above, this has nothing to do with doctrines and Jesus' promises. But you apparently discount His words.

Norske
08-14-2012, 17:54
Look up the 4th Crusade some time.

Roman Catholics, mostly French, taking and sacking Constantinople, then held by Eastern Orthodox Catholics, at the instigation of the Christian Viennese, who did so in defense of their trading partners, the Muslim Ottoman Turks.

Schabesbert
08-14-2012, 17:59
Of course you mean the Roman Catholic Church.
No, I mean the Catholic Church.
I've explained before that the Roman Catholic Church is a misnomer (even if it is popular), but I guess you just weren't listening since it doesn't fit your agenda.

How Did the Catholic Church Get Her Name? (http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/churb3.htm)

We believe that God's kingdom is yet to come upon the earth.

John 17:14 I have given them your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17:15 I pray not that you should take them out of the world, but that you should keep them from the evil.
17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17:17 Sanctify them through your truth: your word is truth.
17:18 As you have sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
Hmmm ... then why can't you find scripture that addresses your theory? Hint: John 17 doesn't have anything to do with that.


God's kingdom does not coexist with the kingdoms of this world.
Then when and how will the wheat and the weeds coexist?
Vic, your keep doing this: you ignore scripture I post, and then you post other, mostly irrelevant scripture that you mangle and distort without ever addressing the scripture that DIRECTLY refutes YOUR beliefs.

Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed:
Yes. The Church.

and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Yes. The Church broke up the Roman Empire, and stands to this day.

THAT is why Peter & Paul wanted so badly to evangelize Rome. They wanted to see this happen.

Da 2:45 This is the meaning of the vision of the rock cut out of a mountain, but not by human hands-- a rock that broke the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold to pieces. "The great God has shown the king what will take place in the future. The dream is true and the interpretation is trustworthy."

Peter, whose very NAME, given to him by Our Lord ("not by human hands"), MEANS "rock," was the agent.

Schabesbert
08-14-2012, 18:05
Who is we?

Lot's of Christians believe that God's kingdom is his people in the church now.

That is how faith is. Everyone has it, but it differs just a little here and there.

"Don't you know that you are the temple of God?"
Exactly. And, in that quote, the word for "you" is plural.
So, while individuals are stones making up that Temple, what St. Paul is saying is that the Church is the Temple, made up of individual Christians.

Vic will ignore this scripture, too.

I'd have to say that where God is, there his kingdom is.
That's a pretty close paraphrase to a Catholic saying:
"Where King is, there is the Kingdom" (http://www.mark-shea.com/euch8.html)

Schabesbert
08-14-2012, 18:10
Look up the 4th Crusade some time.

Roman Catholics, mostly French, taking and sacking Constantinople, then held by Eastern Orthodox Catholics, at the instigation of the Christian Viennese, who did so in defense of their trading partners, the Muslim Ottoman Turks.

Yes. This was one of the events I had alluded to.
This happened IN CONTRADICTION OF THE POPE'S EXPLICIT ORDERS. In fact, he excommunicated those involved. Again, from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Crusade):
When Innocent III heard of the sack he sent a letter to the crusaders excommunicating them, and ordered them to return to their holy vows and head for Jerusalem.

Like I said, it took weeks to MAYBE get messages through at that time. We can't judge them from a WWW-age.

Further, JPII apologized for what these men did, even though they did it against the wishes of the pope.

Vic Hays
08-14-2012, 18:35
Who is we?

Lot's of Christians believe that God's kingdom is his people in the church now.

That is how faith is. Everyone has it, but it differs just a little here and there.

"Don't you know that you are the temple of God?"

I'd have to say that where God is, there his kingdom is.

"Don't you know that God is in you?"

Hebrews 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom you also trusted, after that you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that you believed, you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of his glory.

If you are born again the Holy Spirit is within you and that is the downpayment or "earnest" as the KJV says. This is the only kingdom of God on this earth.

Vic Hays
08-14-2012, 18:41
Yes. The Church broke up the Roman Empire, and stands to this day.



The barbarian tribes broke up the Roman Empire. The sect that had Roman support is merely a baptized version of that empire.

When Constantine moved his headquarters to Constantinople he left the bishop of Rome in charge.

In 538 AD the emperor Justinian declared the RCC to be the head of all the churches.

NMG26
08-15-2012, 03:48
Hebrews 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.


Oh, I know the doctrine well, Vic.

To not live this life, for a promise of something better, is one of destructive doctrines in your faith.

"God is going to make life better in the future", makes one miss the life that is right under their nose.

"Eternal life" is not about a future life. It is about the life that is, right now. "Eternal life" is about seeing God in life now. It is a sad thing to wait for life when it is happening now.

To think that God has something for you in the future is not unique to Christianity. It is a doctrine that is used by extremists to have the gullible do their bidding.

The hope of something future is a comfort to those that are dying, and it is not an excuse for those that should be living. Don't live for the future. Live for the day, the moment, the second. The future is not guaranteed.

"Faith, hope, and love, these three, but the greatest of these is love."

Why do you think that love is the greatest? It is about the moment. Love is about life right now. Faith changes as you learn. Hope is future. Love is now. That is why it is the greatest. Concentrate on that doctrine.

Kingarthurhk
08-15-2012, 05:36
No, my usual modus operendi is to deny your lies and to counter it with the truth.

You're apparently so comfortable with that, that you can't tell the difference any more. Or you're beginning to borrow the concept of takia from the Muslims.


No, I said that you often spout propaganda; I didn't say anything about your claims. It seems almost a tacit admission that it IS propaganda, though, since you're anticipating that it should be called that.

But since you seem intent on being further embarassed:

Really? You're going to claim that Charles "the Hammer" was the only one attempting to turn back the Muslim invaders, despite the history that everyone agrees on?

If you read more carefully, I said it was not a Catholic Crusade. He lived long before the first Catholic Crusade.


Oh, I see. You want to re-define crusades to mean "things which I think I can use to embarass the Catholic Church." Gee, I wonder why your "history" is so skewed.

I don't need to, it has done a fine job of its own. I define Crusades as history defines them, Papal ordered wars against whomever they deemed to be an enemy.



Here's what Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades) has to say:
The Crusades were a series of religious expeditionary wars blessed by Pope Urban II and the Catholic Church, with the stated goal of restoring Christian access to the holy places in and near Jerusalem.
Oops. You must know something that they don't. :upeyes: Nice evasion, but there were far more Papal ordered wars than just that.


Let's see what Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children's_Crusade) says about this:
The Children's Crusade is the name given to a disastrous Crusade by European Catholic children to expel Muslims from the Holy Land said to have taken place in 1212.

The traditional narrative is probably conflated from some factual and mythical notions of the period including visions by a French or German boy, an intention to peacefully convert Muslims in the Holy Land to Christianity, bands of children marching to Italy, and children being sold into slavery.

A study published in 1977 cast doubt on the existence of these events, and many historians came to believe that they were not (or not primarily) children but multiple bands of "wandering poor" in Germany and France, some of whom tried to reach the Holy Land and others who never intended to do so. Early versions of events, of which there are many variations told over the centuries, are largely apocryphal.[1][2][/qoute]

Well, let's see exactly how apocryphal that is:

[quote]The "Crusade" was preached in France by a peasant boy named Stephen from a village near Vendome in France, and a boy named Nicholas from Cologne in Germany, encoraged in both places by the local clergy. The sorry business was related by a chronicler:
In this year [1212] occurred an outstanding thing and one much to be marveled at, for it is unheard of throughout the ages. About the time of Easter and Pentecost, without anyone having preached or called for it and prompted by I know not what spirit, many thousands of boys, ranging in age from six years to full maturity, left the plows or carts which they were driving, the flocks which they were pasturing, and anything else which they were doing. This they did despite the wishes of their parents, relatives, and friends who sought to make them draw back. Suddenly one ran after another to take the cross. Thus, by groups of twenty, or fifty, or a hundred, they put up banners and began to journey to Jerusalem. They were asked by many people on whose advice or at whose urging they had set out upon this path. They were asked especially since only a few years ago many kings, a great many dukes, and innumerable people in powerful companies had gone there and had returned with the business unfinished. The present groups, morever, were stfll of tender years and were neither strong enough nor powerful enough to do anything. Everyone, therefore, accounted them foolish and imprudent for trying to do this. They briefly replied that they were equal to the Divine will in this matter and that, whatever God might wish to do with them, they would accept it willingly and with humble spirit. They thus made some little progress on their journey. Some were turned back at Metz, others at Piacenza, and others even at Rome. Still others got to Marseilles, but whether they crossed to the Holy Land or what their end was is uncertain. One thing is sure: that of the many thousands who rose up, only very few returned.
Source: Chronica Regiae Coloniensis Continuatio prima, s.a.1213, MGH SS XXIV 17-18, translated by James Brundage, The Crusades: A Documentary History, (Milwaukee, WI: Marquette University Press, 1962), p 213


"Largely apocryphal." As in "not true."
When you repeat things that are "not true," if you know that to be the case, we call them lies. So, now I expect you to not mention these untrue stories again. Actually, I don't, since I've come to recognize that you're quite willint to repeat things that are "not true" even when you know that to be the case. Hmmm .... I wonder what that makes you?

Somone who gave you a primary historical source, whereas you have only ad hominem.


Let's again turn to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albigensian_Crusade):
The Albigensian Crusade or Cathar Crusade (1209–1255) was a 45-year military campaign initiated by the Catholic Church to eliminate Catharism in Languedoc. The Crusade was prosecuted primarily by the French crown and promptly took on a political flavour, resulting in not only a significant reduction in the number of practicing Cathars but also a realignment of Occitania, bringing it into the sphere of the French crown and diminishing the distinct regional culture and high level of Aragonese influence.


This is a case where the Church leaders must be held to account, but again, as we can see, it isn't qute the bludgeon you pretend it to be, in your world.[/qoute]

See, now we're making progress. I'll be kind and not throw a group of historical documentation to refute you on this. Once, the Church owns its mistakes, and vows not to repeat them, then we have made serious progress.

[quote]
Ahh, I see. Conflating the Inquisitions with the Crusades. Well, this DOES keep consitant with your definition of the Crusades as I noted above. It's inaccurate (as we've come to expect from you).

Sorry, it happened in Tollouse as a method of total religious victory after this event, in order to route and exterminate all dissenting voices. There is no arguing that. The victors continued to gride on.


Don't have the time to explain any more history to you; you wouldn't listen anyway.

I smypathize with that postion, I really do.


And besides, as I explained above, this has nothing to do with doctrines and Jesus' promises. But you apparently discount His words.

You are absolutely right. The Crusades had nothing to do with Jesus Christ.

John 18:33-36, "Pilate then went back inside the palace, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AP (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26819AP))'></sup> summoned Jesus and asked him, “Are you the king of the Jews?” <sup class="crossreference" value='(AQ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26819AQ))'></sup>
<sup class="versenum">34 </sup>“Is that your own idea,” Jesus asked, “or did others talk to you about me?”

<sup class="versenum">35 </sup>“Am I a Jew?” Pilate replied. “Your own people and chief priests handed you over to me. What is it you have done?”

<sup class="versenum">36 </sup>Jesus said, “My kingdom <sup class="crossreference" value='(AR (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26822AR))'></sup> is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AS (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26822AS))'></sup> But now my kingdom is from another place.” <sup class="crossreference" value='(AT (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26822AT))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">37 </sup>“You are a king, then!” said Pilate.
Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. In fact, the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AU (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26823AU))'></sup> Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.”

snowbird
08-15-2012, 07:49
What atheist communities do you speak of? Which ones enslaved people before having them commit suicide? Cite your source!

Jim Jones' communist society, cynically disguised as pseudo-Christian, enslaved a mostly black congregation before having them commit suicide, or murdered those who hesitated. I looked it up on google. Godless communist societies routinely enslaved their peoples, and murdered them by the tens of millions. Atheist communists murdered 100 million innocent men, women, and children in the 20th century.

I hope you're not supporting communism, but wouldn't be surprised if you are. Be honest now, are you wearing a Che t-shirt right now? You DO know, don't you, that Che was just another mass-murdering atheist communist.

Lone Wolf8634
08-15-2012, 08:29
Jim Jones' communist society, cynically disguised as pseudo-Christian, enslaved a mostly black congregation before having them commit suicide, or murdered those who hesitated. I looked it up on google. Godless communist societies routinely enslaved their peoples, and murdered them by the tens of millions. Atheist communists murdered 100 million innocent men, women, and children in the 20th century.

I hope you're not supporting communism, but wouldn't be surprised if you are. Be honest now, are you wearing a Che t-shirt right now? You DO know, don't you, that Che was just another mass-murdering atheist communist.

So if I'm an Atheist, I'm also a communist?:wow:

Do you routinely accuse those who disagree with you of hateful things?

How Christian of you.

Should we include you in the "just another mass murdering religious zealot" camp. You know, guilt by association?

Would you "kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out"?

Schabesbert
08-15-2012, 10:58
The barbarian tribes broke up the Roman Empire. The sect that had Roman support is merely a baptized version of that empire.
That's not what many historians claim.
So, Vic, Daniel's prophesy was wrong? Or are you claiming that barbarian tribes are the rock that was hewn not with human hands?

OctoberRust
08-15-2012, 12:03
They say that faith can move mountains, but if you actually have a mountain to move, you'd best be talking with the Caterpillar Corporation instead of wearing out your knees.
:rofl::rofl:

Win.

OctoberRust
08-15-2012, 12:04
Maybe your ire needs more than one word??

"faith in god" seems to fit better. Because it seems you have faith no god exists.

Faith doesn't have to be a bad thing.


It seems he said "he does not know" Therefor no "faith" on his part.


Faith is something you feel with emotion, despite the gross lack of evidence to why or what you're "feeling".

Vic Hays
08-15-2012, 17:21
That's not what many historians claim.
So, Vic, Daniel's prophesy was wrong? Or are you claiming that barbarian tribes are the rock that was hewn not with human hands?

Last time I looked the kingdoms of this world are still there.
The Rock is of course Jesus and when He comes again all the cities of the nations fall.

Catholicism is in cahoots with the nations not crushing them to powder.

Revelation 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and Babylon the great was remembered in the sight of God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
16:21 And great hail, [every stone] about the weight of a talent, cometh down out of heaven upon men: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof is exceeding great.

NMG26
08-15-2012, 19:52
Last time I looked the kingdoms of this world are still there.
The Rock is of course Jesus and when He comes again all the cities of the nations fall.


Has Jesus not made is "abode" with you?

"Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him."

Vic Hays
08-15-2012, 22:08
Has Jesus not made is "abode" with you?

"Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him."

Yes, The Father and the Son in the person of the Holy Spirit.

The Bible even provides the test.

I John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

NMG26
08-16-2012, 03:38
Yes, The Father and the Son in the person of the Holy Spirit.

The Bible even provides the test.

I John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

I like tests. Here is my favorite.

"For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace. "

It relates back to the renewed mind.

"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."

Now as for your test.

Do you love the Catholics?

Has your doctrine made you abide in death?

Who is your brethren?

Have you cut it down to just those that believe and walk according to the "right" doctrine?

Bren
08-16-2012, 04:34
Faith is a dishonest tool, used by a self-appointed minority to lord it over a gullible, subservient majority.

And faith is the excuse the minority uses when someone sees through their scam.

Kingarthurhk
08-16-2012, 05:16
And faith is the excuse the minority uses when someone sees through their scam.

A scam implies a purposeful deception for the purpose of personal gain. Do you honestly think that believing people are of that nature? If so, why on earth would they waste their time laboring here, using their time, energy, and personal resources?

Vic Hays
08-16-2012, 08:27
I like tests. Here is my favorite.

"For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace. "

It relates back to the renewed mind.

"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."

Now as for your test.

Have you cut it down to just those that believe and walk according to the "right" doctrine?

Yes, I care about everyone. There is no one that I hate.

Your text going in relates to God's will and law.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

NMG26
08-16-2012, 08:58
Yes, I care about everyone. There is no one that I hate.

Your text going in relates to God's will and law.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

My test.

God's law was summed up in two phrases by Jesus himself........according to the bible. Love God. Love your neighbor.

You are correct. That is a good test. The test of love.

You can even test your doctrine by the law of love.

"Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law."



.

Vic Hays
08-16-2012, 12:30
My test.

God's law was somed up in two phrases by Jesus himself........according to the bible. Love God. Love your neighbor.

You are correct. That is a good test. The test of love.

You can even test your doctrine by the law of love.

"Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law."



.

The sum of love is not just some gushy feeling. It moves people to do good.

NMG26
08-16-2012, 13:02
The sum of love .......... moves people to do good.

Good answer Vic!

Norske
08-16-2012, 14:58
My test.

God's law was somed up in two phrases by Jesus himself........according to the bible. Love God. Love your neighbor.

You are correct. That is a good test. The test of love.

You can even test your doctrine by the law of love.

"Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law."



.

"Love God" sums up the 1st 4 Commandments.

"Love your Neighbor" sums up the last 6 Commandments.

What most people fail to understand is that the real purpose of the first four Commandments was specifically to put secular control over the entire society in the hands of the religious leaders.

Specifically Moses, since he was the actual author of all of the Ten Commandments.

His story that the tablets were "handed to him by God" is so much claptrap.

He chiseled the tablets himself. :steamed:

For the specific purpose of butressing his personal authority and control over the entire nation of Israel, which he himself founded.

Jesus did not choose to tell the truth of the matter and set the record straight.

Norske
08-16-2012, 15:05
A scam implies a purposeful deception for the purpose of personal gain. Do you honestly think that believing people are of that nature? If so, why on earth would they waste their time laboring here, using their time, energy, and personal resources?

Religious leaders have been scamming all of mankind for their own personal gain ever since the first such "elite" invented "religion" in the first place.

This was over 10,000 years ago, when mankind first moved away from a hunter-gatherer existence to an agricultural existence after the last ice age.

They have had over 10,000 years of practice at the scamming technique. That is why they are so good at it to this day!

Witness the "faithful" who vociferously deny that they are scammed, right here in this forum!

When the evidence is right there staring them in the face! :dunno:

Kingarthurhk
08-16-2012, 16:29
Religious leaders have been scamming all of mankind for their own personal gain ever since the first such "elite" invented "religion" in the first place.

This was over 10,000 years ago, when mankind first moved away from a hunter-gatherer existence to an agricultural existence after the last ice age.

They have had over 10,000 years of practice at the scamming technique. That is why they are so good at it to this day!

Witness the "faithful" who vociferously deny that they are scammed, right here in this forum!

When the evidence is right there staring them in the face! :dunno:

You assume 1. That humans actually walked the earth 10,000 years ago.
2. That a relationship with God is invented.
3. That religion, not social groups forming governments opressed people.

A lot of assumption going on with your statement.

Dennisr1977
08-16-2012, 16:39
You assume 1. That humans actually walked the earth 10,000 years ago.
2. That a relationship with God is invented.
3. That religion, not social groups forming governments opressed people.

A lot of assumption going on with your statement.

Are you being serious? It's an assumption humans walked this planet 10,000 years ago? Governments used religion to control.

Kingarthurhk
08-16-2012, 16:54
"Love God" sums up the 1st 4 Commandments.

"Love your Neighbor" sums up the last 6 Commandments.

What most people fail to understand is that the real purpose of the first four Commandments was specifically to put secular control over the entire society in the hands of the religious leaders.

Specifically Moses, since he was the actual author of all of the Ten Commandments.

His story that the tablets were "handed to him by God" is so much claptrap.

He chiseled the tablets himself. :steamed:

For the specific purpose of butressing his personal authority and control over the entire nation of Israel, which he himself founded.

Jesus did not choose to tell the truth of the matter and set the record straight.

So, by your statement you assumming what Arnold J. Rimmer said, "....Love is a device invented by bank managers to make us overdrawn."

Red Dwarf, Series 1, Episode 5, "Confidence and Paranoia".

Schabesbert
08-20-2012, 16:15
Last time I looked the kingdoms of this world are still there.
Last time I looked, the Roman Empire was no longer in existence.

The Rock is of course Jesus and when He comes again all the cities of the nations fall.
And yet, He said to Simon: YOU are ROCK.
He NAMED him "Rock."

Don't Jesus' words count for anything with you?

Revelation 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and Babylon the great was remembered in the sight of God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
I thought you were an advocate of letting scripture interpret scripture. Was I wrong?

What is "the great city"?

Re 11:8 and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which is allegorically called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified.

So, according to the very same book, "the great city" is non other than Jerusalem.

Vic Hays
08-20-2012, 16:26
And yet, He said to Simon: YOU are ROCK.
He NAMED him "Rock."

Don't Jesus' words count for anything with you?

I thought you were an advocate of letting scripture interpret scripture. Was I wrong?

What is "the great city"?

Re 11:8 and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which is allegorically called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified.

So, according to the very same book, "the great city" is non other than Jerusalem.

So you are saying that peter destroyed the Roman Empire?
I didn't think he lived that long.
Are you saying that the Roman Catholic Church destroyed the Roman Empire? That is certainly a lot more believable, however that is not the work of Christ's Church to do.

Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2:4 Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
2:5 Remember you not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2:6 And now you know what withholds that he might be revealed in his time.
2:7 For the mystery of iniquity does already work: only he who now lets will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2:10 And with all delusion of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

BTW the Great City is Babylon not Jerusalem.

Revelation 18:21 A mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and cast it into the sea, saying, “Thus with violence will Babylon, the great city, be thrown down, and will be found no more at all.

Schabesbert
08-20-2012, 16:36
If you read more carefully, I said it was not a Catholic Crusade. He lived long before the first Catholic Crusade.
Good. I'm glad to see that you're admitting to obfuscation.

I don't need to, it has done a fine job of its own. I define Crusades as history defines them, Papal ordered wars against whomever they deemed to be an enemy.
OK, fine. Let's see where you get this definition.
We all know that YOUR definition is whatever you can use to score points against the Church that Jesus started. Wonder where that spirit comes from.


Let's see what Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children's_Crusade) says about this:
[INDENT]The Children's Crusade is the name given to a disastrous Crusade by European Catholic children to expel Muslims from the Holy Land said to have taken place in 1212.

The traditional narrative is probably conflated from some factual and mythical notions of the period including visions by a French or German boy, an intention to peacefully convert Muslims in the Holy Land to Christianity, bands of children marching to Italy, and children being sold into slavery.

A study published in 1977 cast doubt on the existence of these events, and many historians came to believe that they were not (or not primarily) children but multiple bands of "wandering poor" in Germany and France, some of whom tried to reach the Holy Land and others who never intended to do so. Early versions of events, of which there are many variations told over the centuries, are largely apocryphal.[1][2]

Well, let's see exactly how apocryphal that is:





Somone who gave you a primary historical source, whereas you have only ad hominem.
I'm sorry that you're unable to read. Really, I am.
Do you see those numbers after the quote? The [1][2]?

Those point to something called "footnotes," which adult books and articles use to provide additional scholarly information. In this case, two actual books by actual historians.



This is a case where the Church leaders must be held to account, but again, as we can see, it isn't qute the bludgeon you pretend it to be, in your world.

See, now we're making progress. I'll be kind and not throw a group of historical documentation to refute you on this. Once, the Church owns its mistakes, and vows not to repeat them, then we have made serious progress.
The Church has, and does, admit to mistakes made by some of the members.

Again, just like Christ predicted.

You are absolutely right.
Yep.

The Crusades had nothing to do with Jesus Christ.
And besides, as I explained above, this has nothing to do with doctrines and Jesus' promises. But you apparently discount His words.

Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.”
... as opposed to people who discount Jesus' words.

Schabesbert
08-20-2012, 16:44
So you are saying that peter destroyed the Roman Empire?
I didn't think he lived that long.
Not himself, personally. But he planted the seeds.

Now that I've answered your question, maybe you could answer mine:

The 4th kingdom in Daniel's prophesy from Nebuchadnezzar's dream is universally acknowledged to be the Roman Empire. It has been destroyed. By whom?
Was the prophesy fulfilled, or was it not?

Are you saying that the Roman Catholic Church destroyed the Roman Empire?
I'm saying that the Catholic Church did. I very recently corrected you on the name of the Church; shall I start calling you a Millerite?

That is certainly a lot more believable, however that is not the work of Christ's Church to do.
Says who?
I say it is. No, not with armies and weapons, but with Truth.

Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2:4 Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
2:5 Remember you not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2:6 And now you know what withholds that he might be revealed in his time.
2:7 For the mystery of iniquity does already work: only he who now lets will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2:10 And with all delusion of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Thanks, but putting out random bible verses doesn't do much for your argument.

BTW the Great City is Babylon not Jerusalem.
And here I thought you actually believed in the Bible.
My mistake.

I'll repeat it since you don't seem to have read it above, or refused to address it:
Re 11:8 and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which is allegorically called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified.

Are you telling me that Jesus was taken to Babylon to be crucified?

Kingarthurhk
08-20-2012, 17:13
Good. I'm glad to see that you're admitting to obfuscation.


OK, fine. Let's see where you get this definition.
We all know that YOUR definition is whatever you can use to score points against the Church that Jesus started. Wonder where that spirit comes from.


I'm sorry that you're unable to read. Really, I am.
Do you see those numbers after the quote? The [1][2]?

Those point to something called "footnotes," which adult books and articles use to provide additional scholarly information. In this case, two actual books by actual historians.



The Church has, and does, admit to mistakes made by some of the members.

Again, just like Christ predicted.


Yep.


And besides, as I explained above, this has nothing to do with doctrines and Jesus' promises. But you apparently discount His words.


... as opposed to people who discount Jesus' words.

So, as usual, you offer no historical evidence, simply fling out the ad hominems with the same zeal as monkeys fling their feeces at the zoo. You have nothing constructive or relevant to add to the debate than "Nuh, uh." and insults it really doesn't help your argument, and reflects negatively on yourself. Also, it is simply tiresome.

To put the point flatly, you don't play well with others.

So, you have nothing worthwhile to add to this discussion other than that? How can you expect anyone to take your seriously?

When you are ready for a meaningful dialogue, feel free to chime in. Until then, there really isn't a point to even attempging a rational conversation with you.

Schabesbert
08-21-2012, 07:38
So, as usual, you offer no historical evidence, simply fling out the ad hominems with the same zeal as monkeys fling their feeces at the zoo.
I'm sorry -- were you attempting to demonstrate the idea of using ad hominems in lieu of evidence, or were you merely projecting because you didn't know any better?

I pointed out that the footnotes referenced actual historians. Perhaps you're unaware of what these are, or perhaps you are in the habit of carefully avoiding them. Either way, it shows that you are dishonest in your above characterization.

You have nothing constructive or relevant to add to the debate than "Nuh, uh." and insults it really doesn't help your argument, and reflects negatively on yourself. Also, it is simply tiresome.

To put the point flatly, you don't play well with others.

So, you have nothing worthwhile to add to this discussion other than that? How can you expect anyone to take your seriously?

When you are ready for a meaningful dialogue, feel free to chime in. Until then, there really isn't a point to even attempging a rational conversation with you.
:rofl:
You really are a stitch. You're unintentional irony is something to savor.

Bren
08-21-2012, 09:12
A scam implies a purposeful deception for the purpose of personal gain. Do you honestly think that believing people are of that nature? If so, why on earth would they waste their time laboring here, using their time, energy, and personal resources?

Absolutely - the history of, for example, the Catholic church or any theocracy, proves it. Faith is a way of getting power over people when you don't have the military might to get it by force. In fact, if you can get the people to have faith, your power and income is much more secure than if you take the power by force.

You seem to mistake the people in charge of the faithful for "the faithful." The faithful are the subjects, not the rulers. History doesn't leave much doubt about that.

Vic Hays
08-21-2012, 09:29
Now that I've answered your question, maybe you could answer mine:

The 4th kingdom in Daniel's prophesy from Nebuchadnezzar's dream is universally acknowledged to be the Roman Empire. It has been destroyed. By whom?
Was the prophesy fulfilled, or was it not?




And here I thought you actually believed in the Bible.
My mistake.

I'll repeat it since you don't seem to have read it above, or refused to address it:
Re 11:8 and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which is allegorically called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified.

Are you telling me that Jesus was taken to Babylon to be crucified?

Yes, the fourth kingdom is Rome but you quit reading for some reason.

The kingdom was to be divided not unified by the Catholic church, Hitler, Napoleon, Common Market, or anyone else.

Daniel 2:41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters’ clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
2:42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

The reason that the city is called Babylon is because the Bible says so. Jesus was not crucified in Jerusalem. Jesus was crucified outside Jerusalem. Babylon means confusion and since there is now no literal Babylon it must betaken figuratively as it is also called "figuratively" Sodom and Egypt which stand for depravity and atheism respectively.
BTW Rome is also called Babylon by Paul.

Schabesbert
08-21-2012, 13:12
Yes, the fourth kingdom is Rome but you quit reading for some reason.
Why do you say that?

The kingdom was to be divided not unified by the Catholic church, Hitler, Napoleon, Common Market, or anyone else.
Interesting, but irrelevant as nobody has made that claim.
Is that the way you handle it when you can't refute a claim? You refute some irrelevant claim that wasn't made?

The reason that the city is called Babylon is because the Bible says so.
Interesting that you admit below that it is FIGURATIVELY called Babylon. Do you just make claims back & forth as it suits you?

Jesus was not crucified in Jerusalem. Jesus was crucified outside Jerusalem.
Right outside the walls.

Whatever city the Great City is, it is the place where Jesus was crucified. You can claim that it was a suburb of Jerusalem, but I don't think that is a Great City. I think that John was referring to Jerusalem as the Great City where Jesus was crucified.

Babylon means confusion and since there is now no literal Babylon it must betaken figuratively as it is also called "figuratively" Sodom and Egypt which stand for depravity and atheism respectively.
Right.
So, the Great City (i.e., the "Whore of Babylon") is FIGURATIVELY called Babylon, and is the place where Jesus was slain. Oh, yes: it will also be destroyed by fire (hmmm ... what happened in 69-70AD?).

BTW Rome is also called Babylon by Paul.
That was Pope St. Peter. But Peter didn't write Revelation. Context, context, context.

Let me simplify this for you:
JOHN SAYS THAT BABYLON (again, called that figuratively as you admit above) is the place where Christ was crucified. The only "great city" that can claim to be this place is Jerusalem, even though technically He was crucified just outside the wall.

Schabesbert
08-21-2012, 13:18
Originally Posted by Schabesbert

Now that I've answered your question, maybe you could answer mine:

The 4th kingdom in Daniel's prophesy from Nebuchadnezzar's dream is universally acknowledged to be the Roman Empire. It has been destroyed. By whom?
Was the prophesy fulfilled, or was it not?

Yes, the fourth kingdom is Rome
So, Vic, then tell me why you don't think that the Catholic Church fulfilled the prophesy in Daniel.

Some "Rock" hewn from a mountain, not by human hands, destroyed this 4th kingdom since it no longer exists.

Who is the Rock? Who is the mountain?

Vic Hays
08-21-2012, 14:30
So, Vic, then tell me why you don't think that the Catholic Church fulfilled the prophesy in Daniel.

Some "Rock" hewn from a mountain, not by human hands, destroyed this 4th kingdom since it no longer exists.

Who is the Rock? Who is the mountain?

That rock is Jesus.

I am sorry for you that your sect puts peter above Jesus.

I Corinthians 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Schabesbert
08-21-2012, 14:48
That rock is Jesus.

I am sorry for you that your sect puts peter above Jesus.
I'm sorry that you have to resort to lies.

Jesus wouldn't want to be defended by your lies.

The Church doesn't put Peter above Jesus.

Jesus, in this context, is the mountain.

I Corinthians 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Yes; THAT Rock was Christ.

simon, however, was RENAMED by Jesus to "Rock."

Jesus said it, I believe it, that settles it.
For me, anyway.

"Peter" means rock.
When Jesus spoke it in Aramaic, He used the word "Kepha." He renamed Simon "Kepha." That means "rock" in Aramaic.

Norske
08-21-2012, 15:05
You assume 1. That humans actually walked the earth 10,000 years ago.

Based on the genetic and fossil record, it is a pretty good bet.


2. That a relationship with God is invented.



No, I maintain that religions invented, and continue to invent, and continue to re-re-invent, God for the purpose of buttressing religion's authority over their respective societies.

Religions of course, would have everyone believe the opposite is true.

And, most of us are conditioned, as children, to accept the lie as truth before we have any chance whatsoever to think about the question in any sort of critical manner.

3. That religion, not social groups forming governments opressed people.

Maybe not "oppressed" although opression was certainly rampant.

I think a better word would be "That religion.....controlled people".

A lot of assumption going on with your statement.



Yup. My assumptions. Based on my own readings of the Bible, genetics, the fossil record, and other such readings.

Which make a lot more sense to me than the notion that there is some all powerful supernatural being.

Norske
08-21-2012, 15:09
So, by your statement you assumming what Arnold J. Rimmer said, "....Love is a device invented by bank managers to make us overdrawn."

Red Dwarf, Series 1, Episode 5, "Confidence and Paranoia".

My view is that the fundamental human drive is to pass our genes on to the next generation.

There are two primary mechanisms to do so, what I call the "Male Approach" and the "Female Approach".

"Love" is part of the mechanism of the "Female Approach" to human reproduction. :supergrin: