Did the CIA Create al-Qaeda? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Ruble Noon
08-10-2012, 05:22
Ben Swann investigates and reports on the US foreign policy of disaster

http://lewrockwell.com/yk/did-us-create-al-qaeda.html

Foxtrotx1
08-10-2012, 05:23
It shouldn't really be a surprise to anyone.

series1811
08-10-2012, 05:53
No, but we trained a lot of the older ones during the Russian invasion of Afghanistan, OBL being one of them.

You could certainly argue that it was a horrible case of blowback.

Foxtrotx1
08-10-2012, 05:53
Then we leave and piss them off.

Bren
08-10-2012, 06:07
No, but we trained a lot of the older ones during the Russian invasion of Afghanistan, OBL being one of them.

You could certainly argue that it was a horrible case of blowback.

As I understand it, we only "created AQ" by helping the Saudis to help the refiugees who the Saudis taught to be AQ and the Taliban.

Certainly, we had a hand in events that helped create them. In fact, in a similar way, you could show that we created all of our enemies, from the Nazis the the Soviets to the Viet Cong/N.V. communists (the Vietnamese being the most direct example). We didn't create the British, but we were the British, so they don't count.

JFrame
08-10-2012, 06:47
The law of unintended consequences is an interesting thing, and history is absolutely littered -- one could say smothered -- with them.

The Versailles Treaty placed strict restrictions on the German manufacture of heavy machine guns. So the Germans perfected what would be the finest light machine of that era, which was incorporated into their military doctrine, and proved so effective and instrumental in the implementation of their blitzkrieg strategy.

The AWB 10-round magazine limit led to the accelerated development and proliferation of even more compact and concealable semi-automatic pistols of relatively high capacity (e.g., Glock 26 and 27) -- which one could argue are even more beneficial to criminals (and, of course, law-abiding owners). Not to say that this sub-industry would not have grown on its own -- but it clearly received a boost from the arbitrary 10 round limit.

King George's stamp tax, a minor financial irritant and meant more as a symbolic token to the King rather than a meaningful coffer-builder, turned out to be the final straw that catapulted the colonies to revolution.

Pyrrhus thought he would crush the pesky Romans. Instead, he left them more powerful than ever.

Unintended consequences are like negligent discharges -- it isn't so much a matter of "if," as "when."


.

series1811
08-10-2012, 06:54
As I understand it, we only "created AQ" by helping the Saudis to help the refiugees who the Saudis taught to be AQ and the Taliban.

Certainly, we had a hand in events that helped create them. In fact, in a similar way, you could show that we created all of our enemies, from the Nazis the the Soviets to the Viet Cong/N.V. communists (the Vietnamese being the most direct example). We didn't create the British, but we were the British, so they don't count.

Yeah, and history is full of that. On another board I go to, we had a pretty good discussion on how our anti-drug success in Colombia in the 80's, directly lead to the narco-state problems we have in Mexico right now.

Blowback. It's real. :supergrin:

GAFinch
08-10-2012, 07:12
No, but we trained a lot of the older ones during the Russian invasion of Afghanistan, OBL being one of them.

You could certainly argue that it was a horrible case of blowback.

OBL and other Arabs showed up to Afghanistan with Saudi financing and set up their own training camp, because the Afghanis didn't particularly want their help. They were outcasts from their own countries, weren't familiar with the local area, and spoke a different language. It's certainly possible that money given to Saudi Arabia found its way to AQ, but there's no evidence it was done intentionally or directly. The future AQ did survive a couple attacks by the Russians, but that's about it. Know why OBL always carried that AK he got from a dead Russian? Because the guns AQ originally used were some POS fifty year old Egyptian guns made out of zinc.

I would strongly recommend reading the book The Looming Tower. Very good account of the interrelated rise of OBL, Al Qaeda, Islamic Jihad, and the Muslim Brotherhood.

JW1178
08-10-2012, 07:18
The law of unintended consequences hits us hard because we are all over the place in everyone's business. It might be our downfall.

I don't think the CIA created AQ but I can tell you that we used them while they were useful to us. We trained them on how to fight a large superpower and then it blew up in our faces.

series1811
08-10-2012, 07:25
OBL and other Arabs showed up to Afghanistan with Saudi financing and set up their own training camp, because the Afghanis didn't particularly want their help. They were outcasts from their own countries, weren't familiar with the local area, and spoke a different language. It's certainly possible that money given to Saudi Arabia found its way to AQ, but there's no evidence it was done intentionally or directly. The future AQ did survive a couple attacks by the Russians, but that's about it. Know why OBL always carried that AK he got from a dead Russian? Because the guns AQ originally used were some POS fifty year old Egyptian guns made out of zinc.

I would strongly recommend reading the book The Looming Tower. Very good account of the interrelated rise of OBL, Al Qaeda, Islamic Jihad, and the Muslim Brotherhood.

We had a pretty substancial presense in Afghanistan, at times, during that war, and we provided a lot of training and weapons. That's not a secret any longer. One of my old bosses was there from the start, and went back there after 9-11. He's got some good stories. A lot of the people we trained, became AQ.

Who knew what was coming?

humanguerrilla
08-10-2012, 08:12
We directly supported them. OBL was a recruited asset. We are knowingly, directly supporting them in Syria again to check the Russians and oppose Shia.

JBnTX
08-10-2012, 09:03
The "Blame America First" propaganda is strong in this thread.

snerd
08-10-2012, 09:13
The "Blame America First" propaganda is strong in this thread.
Take off those rose colored glasses for a few minutes.

JBnTX
08-10-2012, 09:50
Take off those rose colored glasses for a few minutes.

If we would have never set one foot in the Middle East, Al-Qaeda, the Taliban and the terrorism of the Islamic fundamentalists would still exist.

They would still hate us just as much and want us destroyed.
Maybe they would blame us even more for neglecting them.

Without our influence over there, Israel would have been destroyed long ago and most Middle Eastern countries today would be part of one giant Islamic super state that would be a serious threat to the entire world.

...AND gasoline would be seven dollars a gallon, if you could find a station that has it.


..

countrygun
08-10-2012, 10:52
No, but we trained a lot of the older ones during the Russian invasion of Afghanistan, OBL being one of them.

You could certainly argue that it was a horrible case of blowback.


Much like helping Uncles Ho and Mao in order to help defeat the Japanese in Asia during WWII. But the trade off is the Japan of today as opposed to the Japan of, say, 1941

Stuff happens in internation politics and war. It's rather foolish to look back with 20/20 hindsight and point fingers.

Chuck TX
08-10-2012, 10:56
If we would have never set one foot in the Middle East, Al-Qaeda, the Taliban and the terrorism of the Islamic fundamentalists would still exist.

They would still hate us just as much and want us destroyed.
Maybe they would blame us even more for neglecting them.

Without our influence over there, Israel would have been destroyed long ago and most Middle Eastern countries today would be part of one giant Islamic super state that would be a serious threat to the entire world.

...AND gasoline would be seven dollars a gallon, if you could find a station that has it.


..

You mean like they hate the Swiss for minding their own business?

A lot of supposition you have going on there.

It could be that without meddling the region would have long ago reached homeostasis and we'd be driving on 1$/gal instead.

countrygun
08-10-2012, 11:05
You mean like they hate the Swiss for minding their own business?

A lot of supposition you have going on there.

It could be that without meddling the region would have long ago reached homeostasis and we'd be driving on 1$/gal instead.


You are the one full of supposition and a dose of ignorance.

Do you really by the liberal pap that "Switzerland is the epitome of neutrality"

They have their fingers, through banking, in ever violent pie where they smell a profit. Their only saving grace has been that there is little advantage to invading their Country and their banking power. Do not forget their involvement in the Nazi money machine.

"Neutrality" my eye. Playing both sides against the middle for profit is not "neutrality" in my book

JBnTX
08-10-2012, 11:09
You mean like they hate the Swiss for minding their own business?




It has nothing to do with the Swiss minding their own business.

That's a poor analogy because Switzerland isn't a world power capable of enforcing peace in the Middle East, like the United States.

The Islamic fundamentalists are not concerned with the Swiss, because the Swiss are incapable of stopping their Islamic terrorist reign of terror they have planned for this world.

..

Chuck TX
08-10-2012, 11:17
You are the one full of supposition and a dose of ignorance.

Do you really by the liberal pap that "Switzerland is the epitome of neutrality"

They have their fingers, through banking, in ever violent pie where they smell a profit. Their only saving grace has been that there is little advantage to invading their Country and their banking power. Do not forget their involvement in the Nazi money machine.

"Neutrality" my eye. Playing both sides against the middle for profit is not "neutrality" in my book

I'm merely playing along with ol' JB. Thanks for your participation, though. You sound like a beacon neutrality yourself.

countrygun
08-10-2012, 11:37
I'm merely playing along with ol' JB. Thanks for your participation, though. You sound like a beacon neutrality yourself.


I guess you have to play your games.

Carry on.

series1811
08-10-2012, 11:45
We directly supported them. OBL was a recruited asset. We are knowingly, directly supporting them in Syria again to check the Russians and oppose Shia.

Covert action, even when done for one hundred per cent of the right reason, often makes for strange bedfellows. :supergrin:

This isn't the first, and won't be the last, time we worked with people that we later worked against.

GAFinch
08-10-2012, 11:50
We had a pretty substancial presense in Afghanistan, at times, during that war, and we provided a lot of training and weapons. That's not a secret any longer. One of my old bosses was there from the start, and went back there after 9-11. He's got some good stories. A lot of the people we trained, became AQ.

Who knew what was coming?

Of course we provided training and weapons over there, I didn't claim we didn't, but it was directed at Afghani rebel forces, not the ragtag group of misfit Arab teenagers playing soldier. The future AQ were there independently of Afghani fighters and got their help from the Saudis, not from us.

lancesorbenson
08-10-2012, 11:57
Switzerland isn't a world power capable of enforcing peace in the Middle East, like the United States.

I laughed. What is this capability of which you speak?

JBnTX
08-10-2012, 12:57
I laughed. What is this capability of which you speak?


Have you ever heard of the US military?:headscratch:

They're considered by many to be the most powerful military on Earth and very well capable of "enforcing" peace in the Middle East.

Google it.
You'll be amazed at their capabilities.

Bren
08-10-2012, 14:36
Yeah, and history is full of that. On another board I go to, we had a pretty good discussion on how our anti-drug success in Colombia in the 80's, directly lead to the narco-state problems we have in Mexico right now.

Blowback. It's real. :supergrin:

It all works like an old episode of "Connections" with James Burke (i.e., why telecommunications exist because Normans had stirrups for horse riding). In a similar way, we could trace events before the American Revolution to Adolph Hitler's rise to power and/or the birth of the USSR.

Bren
08-10-2012, 14:41
I laughed. What is this capability of which you speak?

We have the capability to literally turn the entire middle east into a parking lot - striped, with reserve spaces. Don't mistake the lack of political will for a lack of ability. Just because a guy doesn't beat you up, doesn't mean he can't.

lancesorbenson
08-10-2012, 18:25
We have the capability to literally turn the entire middle east into a parking lot - striped, with reserve spaces. Don't mistake the lack of political will for a lack of ability. Just because a guy doesn't beat you up, doesn't mean he can't.

I wouldn't call wholesale obliteration "enforcing peace."

Cavalry Doc
08-10-2012, 18:37
I wouldn't call wholesale obliteration "enforcing peace."

It would create it temporarily......

There is almost always silence following a really big bang, for a while at least.

Bren
08-11-2012, 06:20
I wouldn't call wholesale obliteration "enforcing peace."

Neither did I, nor did the post I responded to.

However, now that you mention it, I would. The surest way to avoid a fight in the future is to eliminate one of the parties to the fight.

JFrame
08-11-2012, 09:17
I remember the discussion that the teacher of Moral History had with the student in Heinlein's novel, Starship Troopers. The student said, "My mother said violence never solved anything."

The teacher asked the student to provide some details on the economic and cultural significance of contemporary Carthage.

The girl says, "You know darned well Carthage doesn't exist anymore."

And the teacher replies something like, "It appears violence did solve something for the Romans."


.

steveksux
08-12-2012, 09:52
No, but we trained a lot of the older ones during the Russian invasion of Afghanistan, OBL being one of them.

You could certainly argue that it was a horrible case of blowback.I thought this was common knowledge... We gave them more than training, too, they didn't reverse engineer stinger shoulder fired missiles out of goat bladders in a cave laboratory in Afghanistan... :supergrin:

We had a common enemy, we provided assistance. When the common enemy was ousted, so was our common cause. Eventually they came up with a reason to hate us, and put our training to use against us. Luckily the stingers have expiration dates...

Not that unusual at all.

Randy

series1811
08-13-2012, 06:13
I thought this was common knowledge... We gave them more than training, too, they didn't reverse engineer stinger shoulder fired missiles out of goat bladders in a cave laboratory in Afghanistan... :supergrin:

We had a common enemy, we provided assistance. When the common enemy was ousted, so was our common cause. Eventually they came up with a reason to hate us, and put our training to use against us. Luckily the stingers have expiration dates...

Not that unusual at all.

Randy

About twenty years after the Russians had left Afghanistan, somebody who was thinking, decided that maybe we should try and get back those leftover Stingers, while others in the G were saying that their shelf life was much shorter than that and they wouldn't be usable any longer, and we would just be buying junk.

The CIA went in and bought back a large number of the old Stingers and then had the military test them. Over half of them still worked fine. :wow:

But, you can't buy back somebody's training.

And, it is amazing how myopic the intelligence community can be at some times. I was at an FCI counter terrorism training in 1988, where a representative of the agency who was supposed to know, came in and told us with a straight face that we didn't have to worry about the types of terrorist acts that were taking place in Europe happening in the US. The reason? The Atlantic ocean was too hard to get across and the logistics of doing that were too insurmountable by stupid and underfunded terrorists.

In the hall during a break, I was glad to find that that sounded just as stupid to everybody else in the room as to me. Back in class, I didn't feel I had the creds at the time to challenge this guy, but two guys who had just come out of Army SF and a SEAL just out of MOB, lit him up like a candle on just how crazy that theory was.

When I was watching TV 9-11, that training session came back to me over and over.

And, then of course, after 9-11, we went overboard, thinking there was a jihadist behind every rock, next to every bridge and mall here.