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RDub01
08-10-2012, 11:00
First time posting here.
I discovered this forum while researching 10mm reloading and it has been a valued resource!
Well I am picking up a new Glock 20 in 10mm next week and canít wait start shooting it..
As a result of all the research I was doing I discovered that it is suggested that one pick up an aftermarket barrel, spring and guide.
What I have on my Midway wish list is;
Storm Lake 4.6Ē SS barrel
Wolff 22# recoil spring
Wolff Guide Rod
Iím also new to Glocks.. So I have some questions.
I understand the reasoning behind the heavier recoil spring, keeping the cartridge in battery longer to ensure a complete powder burn and in turn reducing velocity spreads.
And I understand that an aftermarket barrel will have a tighter chamber (easier on brass) and the chamber is cut so more brass is supported unlike the factory barrel, but..
I see the recoil spring set has two springs. Is one for the extractor?
What is meant by supported and unsupported recoil spring?

Iíve e been a handloader since the late Ď60s and have loaded many different rounds over the years, including .40 S&W, but never any 10mm
I am aware of the situation with autoloaders where the bullet in reloaded ammo Ďmightí have a tendency to slip back in the case upon ramping into the chamber thereby increasing chamber pressures catastrophically. One way to reduce or illuminate this problem is to use a powder that results in a slightly compressed result. Thatís why I like to use BlueDot with 9mm Luger.
In using 180-200 grain bullets in 10mm, there should be plenty of bullet tension in the case since they are seated deeply. Is this a conern?

I threw a lot out at one time.. Hope thatís ok.. I really appreciate your help.

WeeWilly
08-10-2012, 11:31
First time posting here.
I discovered this forum while researching 10mm reloading and it has been a valued resource!
Well I am picking up a new Glock 20 in 10mm next week and can’t wait start shooting it..
As a result of all the research I was doing I discovered that it is suggested that one pick up an aftermarket barrel, spring and guide.
What I have on my Midway wish list is;
Storm Lake 4.6” SS barrel
Wolff 22# recoil spring
Wolff Guide Rod
I’m also new to Glocks.. So I have some questions.
I understand the reasoning behind the heavier recoil spring, keeping the cartridge in battery longer to ensure a complete powder burn and in turn reducing velocity spreads.
And I understand that an aftermarket barrel will have a tighter chamber (easier on brass) and the chamber is cut so more brass is supported unlike the factory barrel, but..
I see the recoil spring set has two springs. Is one for the extractor?
What is meant by supported and unsupported recoil spring?

I’ve e been a handloader since the late ‘60s and have loaded many different rounds over the years, including .40 S&W, but never any 10mm
I am aware of the situation with autoloaders where the bullet in reloaded ammo ‘might’ have a tendency to slip back in the case upon ramping into the chamber thereby increasing chamber pressures catastrophically. One way to reduce or illuminate this problem is to use a powder that results in a slightly compressed result. That’s why I like to use BlueDot with 9mm Luger.
In using 180-200 grain bullets in 10mm, there should be plenty of bullet tension in the case since they are seated deeply. Is this a conern?

I threw a lot out at one time.. Hope that’s ok.. I really appreciate your help.

My recommendation would be to hold off buying anything aftermarket until you get some shooting with the gun under your belt.

The one possible exception to the advice above might be a heavier recoil spring assembly. I like using a 22lb ISMI RSA I got from Glockmeister for my G20SF. This is a flat style spring and is a captive setup on a stainless guide rod. I like using this RSA as it seems to help keep the slide from banging the frame under heavier loads and still seems to cycle even mid-range 40S&W loads fine. I tried a 24lb of the same setup and it really seemed to help slow things down, but it also seemed to increase felt recoil enough that I don't use it much anymore. I suspect the difference in actual spring weight between the 22lb Glockmeister RSA and the 24lb is more than 2lbs.

On the aftermaket barrel. I have a few KKM barrels for my 10mm Glocks and while they are a quality product, I honestly can say I don't think they add enough to justify the cost.

On the bullet setback concern, I think if you are getting enough neck tension (more than .002"), bullet setback under feed probably isn't too much of a concern. With the heavier bullets in the powders I favor for 10mm, setback is not a concern as you note, the cases are really full and the loads are compressed or nearly compressed.

_The_Shadow
08-10-2012, 11:32
RDub01, If you have loaded 40S&W then you have loaded 10mm in the short version, the only difference is the cartridge case length as both us the same bullets.

Blue Dot works well with 10mm also as you will read this section.

Glocks differ from other pistols especially 1911 styles, but the G-20 was designed for the 10mm from the ground up. Recoil springs can be changed to adjust slide speeds and dwell time to a certain extent. Some loads exibit an impulse that can exceed the lock up and pressures generated can cause the cases to deform and even smile given barrel/rifling types and chamber support. Only testing will show how yours operates!

_The_Shadow
08-10-2012, 12:15
Oh yea welcome to the forum also. You may be interested in this new forum that just started up http://10mm-firearms.com/index.php

RDub01
08-12-2012, 18:00
Thanks for the replies.. Been away from an internet connection for a few days.

My primary reason for wanting an aftermarket barrel is for shooting hard cast bullets which I will make myself. From what I have seen and heard, such barrels will shoot cast better as they have actual rifling.
The side benefit would be a tighter chamber and easier sizing of brass.
'Coarse, I haven't actually sized any brass shot in a Glock barrel yet so I don't know the difference.

I'll look into that ISMA RSA spring, but I'm still a little fuzzy about what exactly 'captive' means or 'unsupported' as it relates to recoil springs. What is the factory setup? When changing a recoil spring, is it necessary to change the extractor spring also?

Thanks again for help

Oh, that other 10mm site looks great! thanks

_The_Shadow
08-12-2012, 19:02
You could try the loads in your factory barrel & recoil spring to get a feel for how they work. You might be suprised how well they work. I do have some AM barrels and they work well for jacket and cast bullets with better chamber support.

Non captive springs can be easier to swap different rates of spring strengths as no tools are required to change out springs. Captive springs are held captive by the design of the recoil rod, some have methods of removal with tools others are not removable.

Good luck! :)

Taterhead
08-12-2012, 21:48
A non-captive spring, most likely like the Wolff that you are looking at, are open on one end so that springs can be swapped easily.

I personally don't think a heavier spring is necessary. I do have one, but rarely use it anymore.

The chambers of Glocks are looser, but that has not presented any reloading issues for me. You might try the stock setup first to see if you feel that any of the stock parts are lacking. I have found that it runs really good out of the box.

You did not mention the specifics about the cast bullets that you intend to load, but an A/M barrel might serve you well for that. Depending upon the profile, many A/M barrels don't seat well since they are designed around factory FMJ profiles. The short throats and tight tolerances of some aftermarket designs might not feed your bullet profile.

RDub01
08-13-2012, 20:14
A non-captive spring, most likely like the Wolff that you are looking at, are open on one end so that springs can be swapped easily.

I personally don't think a heavier spring is necessary. I do have one, but rarely use it anymore.

The chambers of Glocks are looser, but that has not presented any reloading issues for me. You might try the stock setup first to see if you feel that any of the stock parts are lacking. I have found that it runs really good out of the box.

You did not mention the specifics about the cast bullets that you intend to load, but an A/M barrel might serve you well for that. Depending upon the profile, many A/M barrels don't seat well since they are designed around factory FMJ profiles. The short throats and tight tolerances of some aftermarket designs might not feed your bullet profile.


Thanks Taterhead
I have a Lyman #401043 170gr FN and an RCBS 200gr truncated nose.
The 170gr bullet works very well in the .40 Sigma and I'm thinking it should be ok in the Glock.

I just picked up the 10mm today so I haven't loaded anything up yet. I'm still waiting for some brass to show up.

Well I'lll start working with it stock and see how it goes.

Thanks again

RDub01
08-14-2012, 17:53
Hello
Have one more question.. Is there a need to have a Redding G-RX Carbide base sizing die kit for 10mm?
Thank you

nickE10mm
08-14-2012, 20:36
What others have said... work up with the stock G20. Learn about its habits and how to best shoot it. Its a beast of a pistol and will handle anything within reason. If you decide after putting 500 rounds through it that you need something else done, feel free to experiment with parts but I'd say that, for the most part, your money is best put into ammo and/or reloading supplies. :)

That is, if you like to shoot. ;)

WeeWilly
08-14-2012, 22:29
Hello
Have one more question.. Is there a need to have a Redding G-RX Carbide base sizing die kit for 10mm?
Thank you

I don't own one and have reloaded a lot of brass that was shot really hot. Having said that, if you like pretty rounds with nice straight brass, I say go for it.

RDub01
08-14-2012, 23:00
I don't own one and have reloaded a lot of brass that was shot really hot. Having said that, if you like pretty rounds with nice straight brass, I say go for it.

Ok, fair 'nuf..

Well as soon as it cools down around here.. In the 100įs all week.. I'll get out and shoot this thing..

I appreciate all the input.. Thanks!

RDub01
08-17-2012, 18:44
Hi
Well thought I was done, but I gotta ask this..
I have read on several occasions where someone was referring to brass that was shot out of a Glock factory stock barrel as 'ruined' or 'unusable' because of the 'bulge'..
I'm not understanding why this would be true, if in fact it is true.. Isn't that what resizing dies are for?
Or, is that where the Redding G-RX Carbide base sizing die kit comes in?

Thanks for your patience.. I just want to get into loading/shooting 10mm with both eyes open as much as possible..

_The_Shadow
08-17-2012, 19:40
Yes there are what is called a "Glock Bulge"; smooth rounded case expansion devoid of distinct lines where the casing has started to shear which is called a "SMILE" this distinct line is the brass starting to shear as it has expanded and stretch beyond any supported areas.

" SMILES" can not be repaired by any amount of sizing with regular dies or "Pass-Thru" sizing.

Please review this section follow the link; http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1403261

Taterhead
08-17-2012, 21:03
Hi
Well thought I was done, but I gotta ask this..
I have read on several occasions where someone was referring to brass that was shot out of a Glock factory stock barrel as 'ruined' or 'unusable' because of the 'bulge'..
I'm not understanding why this would be true, if in fact it is true.. Isn't that what resizing dies are for?
Or, is that where the Redding G-RX Carbide base sizing die kit comes in?

Thanks for your patience.. I just want to get into loading/shooting 10mm with both eyes open as much as possible..

Bulges are normal. If you are reloading to be shot again in a Glock barrel, it isn't a problem. A regular carbide resizing die will size it to feed without problems in the Glock. If it is going to be resized for use in a "match" chamber, some type of pass through die might be necessary to iron out the little bit that gets missed near the extraction groove. Dropping a re-sized case into the chamber will tell you if it fits or not.

Like Shadow said, there is an important distinction between the normal Glock belly and a Glock smiled case. Smiles (frowns actually) are no-go for reloading. In a Glock, smiled brass is an indication that it is time to back off the load a bit.

Overall, smiles have been an extremely rare phenomenon in my G20.

RDub01
08-17-2012, 21:27
Thanks Tater for that clarification..

The Smiles I understand, as the unsupported section of brass wanted to leave the AO.. way too much pressure.. So are not usable to reload.

Smiles in yours are rare because you are not reckless with your charges..:cool:

TDC20
08-19-2012, 11:46
Hi RDub01, and welcome to the forum. I've been away a little bit, but thought I might add a few things for you here.

You mentioned a concern about bullets seating loose and causing setback during cycling. Some of the nickel plated brass has a reputation for becoming work-hardened after several firings/resizings and losing bullet retention capacity. It's been reported on here that Remington nickel plated is prone to this. It's especially an issue if you're loading 135gr bullets, because you have a very limited amount of bullet surface area for the brass to contact. So, I would advise you to watch for this on Nickel plated brass, and especially with lighter bullets.

I have the standard 10MM Redding Titanium Carbide dies, and I really like them. They will re-size .40 S&W, but can't be set to taper crimp them properly. So I had to buy Lee dies for .40.

I also have the Lee factory crimp die, which has a carbide insert that is supposed to make sure everything chambers correctly when used as the final crimper (I only "crimp" enough to remove the case flare). The internals of the FCD can be removed and this can be used as a pass-through re-sizing die for your cases (resize in your regular re-sizing die first, then run thorugh the pass-through). It works quite well for that application, and makes my case max. diameter 0.422", which is what factory Starline comes in at. However, I'm one of the few reloaders here that uses case head expansion as a pressure guide (measured at the thick part of the web just above the extractor groove), and my "hot" loads run around at .0014" avg. on virgin Starline brass (i.e., not work hardened after multiple firings). So, if you're seeing case head expansion closing in on the .434" chamber dimension of the stock G20 barrel, especially after just a few firings, you are probably loading well over the SAAMI pressure limit for the 10mm. This is just my opinion, but it's worth keeping an eye on, while you still have your eyes. :tongueout:

Good luck, and be safe!

RDub01
08-21-2012, 22:45
Hi RDub01, and welcome to the forum. I've been away a little bit, but thought I might add a few things for you here.

You mentioned a concern about bullets seating loose and causing setback during cycling. Some of the nickel plated brass has a reputation for becoming work-hardened after several firings/resizings and losing bullet retention capacity. It's been reported on here that Remington nickel plated is prone to this. It's especially an issue if you're loading 135gr bullets, because you have a very limited amount of bullet surface area for the brass to contact. So, I would advise you to watch for this on Nickel plated brass, and especially with lighter bullets.

I have the standard 10MM Redding Titanium Carbide dies, and I really like them. They will re-size .40 S&W, but can't be set to taper crimp them properly. So I had to buy Lee dies for .40.

I also have the Lee factory crimp die, which has a carbide insert that is supposed to make sure everything chambers correctly when used as the final crimper (I only "crimp" enough to remove the case flare). The internals of the FCD can be removed and this can be used as a pass-through re-sizing die for your cases (resize in your regular re-sizing die first, then run thorugh the pass-through). It works quite well for that application, and makes my case max. diameter 0.422", which is what factory Starline comes in at. However, I'm one of the few reloaders here that uses case head expansion as a pressure guide (measured at the thick part of the web just above the extractor groove), and my "hot" loads run around at .0014" avg. on virgin Starline brass (i.e., not work hardened after multiple firings). So, if you're seeing case head expansion closing in on the .434" chamber dimension of the stock G20 barrel, especially after just a few firings, you are probably loading well over the SAAMI pressure limit for the 10mm. This is just my opinion, but it's worth keeping an eye on, while you still have your eyes. :tongueout:

Good luck, and be safe!

Hi TDC20

Thanks for the heads up about nickel and specifically Rem brass. I don't have any plans to load anything lighter than 180gr for now.. Maybe some 155gr later on.
If I find some UMC 10mm ammo, after shooting it I'll most likely just load it pretty close to factory with a 180gr something and use it as a plinkin load. I will use Starline brass for most everything else.

I also use LEE dies for .40 and now 10mm and like them because the FCD does just that.
I will pay particular attention to head expansion with 10mm.. Really looking forward to getting started.

BenKeith
08-22-2012, 04:41
I bought a G20SF about a year ago and ordered the Wolff 6" barrel at the same time along with the a full set of light and heavy springs.
I now have about 5,000 rounds thru it and to be honest with you, I see very little difference between the Wolff barrel and the factory barrel when it comes to the bulge in the brass. I'm using the Lee dies and also bought the Lee feed through die, and have never seen a need to use it.
I will not use a lighter spring than the factory 17#. The only time I've ever gotten the Glock smile was when using a lighter spring.
I shoot a lot of 135 copper plated with 6 grains of 231 for practice because they don't bother the arthritis in my hand as much.
My second most used load for practice is 165 gr Montana Golds with 10.4 gr Blue dot.
The heaviest load I shoot is 180gr Golden Saber's with 11.4 gr of Blue dot. This gives me 1,250 fps in the factory barrel and 1325 in the 6" LWB. I only load these in new brass. My 180 gr practice round is with 10.4 gr Blue dot.

I do change to a 22# spring when shooting the heavier 180gr loads but the bulk of my shooting is with the 17# factory spring. I also have one of the little, rubber recoil bumpers in front of the spring. Not sure if it does much but I feel it helps to keep from beating the frame up as bad.

Blue Dot and 231 are the only powders I've ever tried, BD for heavy loads and 231 for light loads. I've been happy with those, and don't care to see what the absolute max I can get out of it is, so have had no desire to experiment with others. I have heard that Blue Dot pretty much wipes out your night vision but hopefully, I hope I never have to find out.

RDub01
08-22-2012, 23:36
Hi BenKeith
Well I have read more than once where guys have said that the stock spring and barrel work just fine in most cases.. Probly so, we'll see.

Still waitin on that nice gentleman with the dark brown shorts, driving a dark brown truck, dropping off a brown box full of goodies..

11.4grs of BD sounds pretty warm.. Would you say that Golden Sabers have less 'friction' than some other bullets in that weight..Enabling you to go that high, or, could you load that charge with most other 180gr jacketed bullets in your gun?
I've never loaded any of those.. Have some GS factory stuff.. I hear they are a tough bullet..

BenKeith
08-23-2012, 19:20
I did not just jump into that 11.4 grain load, and I would never change any part of a hot load I develope without starting all over again at a lighter powder charge. I usually shoot at least 100 rounds and not all on the same day, I do this over several trips to the range and carefully inspect every piece of brass and primers. If it's a load I develop in cooler temps, I will be sure to carefully test it in hot weather and leave it in a hot vehicle for a while then test it. I'm old school and mic every piece of brass, before and after shooting when developing a load. I know there are those that say brass base expansion is not a valid indicator, but it sure makes me feel better, especially knowing it has always been a good indicator on my rifle brass. This load will give some primer flating but not and extreme amount and I've never had one that caused any base expansion.

One other thing, I weigh each and every load when loading hot loads, I will not use a powder dumper on those. Now that I'm satisfied with it, I shoot very few of them so weighing is not a problem.

I've really never done any experimenting with other components. My neighbor gave me 200, 180gr cast bullets to try and I could never get them to shoot clean and had heavy leading after just two clips. This was with the LW Barrel NOT the Glock. I target practice with Montana bullets, and use Golden Sabers as carry loads. I keep the 10mm loaded with 180 gr GS's and my wifes G27 loaded with 165gr GS's

Understand now, this loads was carefully developed with my barrels, I WOULD NOT shoot them in another barrel without backing down and working back up. At the same time, I've seen post where people have loaded 12 grains of Blue Dot with their 180 grain bullets. I'm sure I could go hotter with mine but have absolutely no desire to. For one, I would not want to beat my gun up like that.

I guess I should also say, I'm not a pistol person and actually never cared for them but my wife insisted I get them about a year ago when a situation arose that scared the crap out of her an felt we needed to start keeping a pistol close by. It took me a couple thousand rounds just to get where I felt comfortable that I could even make a quick shot and hit a paper plate everytime at 50 ft. Now I feel good enough that I could easily hit anything I needed. Within 25 yards, I can now put 15 shots in that paper plate in 15 seconds. Not great, but give me my 6.5-284 and I will punch holes in that paper plate all day long at 1,000 yds.

RDub01
08-27-2012, 00:36
I did not just jump into that 11.4 grain load, and I would never change any part of a hot load I develope without starting all over again at a lighter powder charge. I usually shoot at least 100 rounds and not all on the same day, I do this over several trips to the range and carefully inspect every piece of brass and primers. If it's a load I develop in cooler temps, I will be sure to carefully test it in hot weather and leave it in a hot vehicle for a while then test it. I'm old school and mic every piece of brass, before and after shooting when developing a load. I know there are those that say brass base expansion is not a valid indicator, but it sure makes me feel better, especially knowing it has always been a good indicator on my rifle brass. This load will give some primer flating but not and extreme amount and I've never had one that caused any base expansion.

One other thing, I weigh each and every load when loading hot loads, I will not use a powder dumper on those. Now that I'm satisfied with it, I shoot very few of them so weighing is not a problem.

I've really never done any experimenting with other components. My neighbor gave me 200, 180gr cast bullets to try and I could never get them to shoot clean and had heavy leading after just two clips. This was with the LW Barrel NOT the Glock. I target practice with Montana bullets, and use Golden Sabers as carry loads. I keep the 10mm loaded with 180 gr GS's and my wifes G27 loaded with 165gr GS's

Understand now, this loads was carefully developed with my barrels, I WOULD NOT shoot them in another barrel without backing down and working back up. At the same time, I've seen post where people have loaded 12 grains of Blue Dot with their 180 grain bullets. I'm sure I could go hotter with mine but have absolutely no desire to. For one, I would not want to beat my gun up like that.

I guess I should also say, I'm not a pistol person and actually never cared for them but my wife insisted I get them about a year ago when a situation arose that scared the crap out of her an felt we needed to start keeping a pistol close by. It took me a couple thousand rounds just to get where I felt comfortable that I could even make a quick shot and hit a paper plate everytime at 50 ft. Now I feel good enough that I could easily hit anything I needed. Within 25 yards, I can now put 15 shots in that paper plate in 15 seconds. Not great, but give me my 6.5-284 and I will punch holes in that paper plate all day long at 1,000 yds.


Hi
Just got back from our annual ATV dune trip.. So wasn't near a computer for a few days.

I wasn't implying that you jumped into that load.. This whole thread is about going about meticulously working up loads just the way you and others prescribe. So I had every confidence that the 11.4gr load was worked up carefully.
I was just wondering if you worked with any other bullets.

I've only been doing research on the 10mm for a few weeks so I just had not yet stumbled upon any forum thread where Blue Dot was loaded with that charge or higher.

I just need to get my butt out to the range and start getting all this figured out for myself. Itís cooling off around here so Iím gonna do just that..

Oh, Iím a rifle guy too.. And youíre singin my song talkin about long range shooting.:supergrin:

Thanks for all the help..

BenKeith
08-28-2012, 16:42
I've been shooting and reloading long guns since the mid 60's. I have 34 rifles and shotguns and three pistols. A super blackhawk I bought when they first came out and haven't shot 50 rounds through it. Then the G20 and G27 I bought the first of last year. If I was even 10% as good with a pistol as I am with any of the long guns, I would feel great about my pistol shooting.

No, I've done no experimenting with any other bullets, powders or primers. I started with the Montana bullets for practice because their price was about as good as I could find and 180 grain Golden Sabers for the G20 and 165 grain GS's for the G27 were what I decided to use for carry loads. I spent a long time testing those for both guns to get a kickass load. Now I only shot a few carry loads, just to keep me comfortable with them. When I practice, I shoot about 50 rounds of the 165 grain Montana Golds and a couple hundred 135gr plated Montana bullets with 6 grains of W231. Very mild, a very little recoil, so the arthritis in my hands doesn't make me regret it later.
I'm not trying to be an expert, just good enough for self defense.