Start Positions, discussion, pics, vids, etc [Archive] - Glock Talk

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S.Kargoh
08-11-2012, 21:32
Low ready, compressed ready, fully ready, sight picture, etc etc





Here is my "rendition".


YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

Post a vid or pic of yours.


From a live match or prax session if possible.

mike g35
08-11-2012, 21:38
Low ready, compressed ready, fully ready, sight picture, etc etc





Here is my "rendition".


YouTube - Broadcast Yourself. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJzvYxzyU9s)

Post a vid or pic of yours.


From a live match or prax session if possible.
Your video says its private???? Guess you have to make it public before we can see???
Heres mine but not sure if you can see. I imitate the videos I saw of the Gunny Challenge, muzzle to the barrel.
http://youtu.be/cBE06ERhIfE

S.Kargoh
08-11-2012, 21:42
Whoops. I will fix it asap.

mike g35
08-11-2012, 21:55
Whoops. I will fix it asap.
Good deal. Just wanted to give you the heads up. :wavey: Now its there and I can see. You start at about the same postition as me.

SARDG
08-11-2012, 21:58
S. - Great ready position from what I see. The RO however is standing on your left side and you are right-handed, so he can't see your trigger finger if it gets on the trigger prematurely. Same with Mike's video - assuming you're a right-handed shooter, Mike.

SARDG
08-11-2012, 22:00
Mike's RO is also watching the plates instead of the gun and shooter!

mike g35
08-11-2012, 22:08
SARDG I've noticed a lot of ROs tend to watch the action as opposed to running it. Myself I got busted putting my finger in the trigger guard last year in Lexington and quickly broke the habit but I wonder if this is more often missed than I thought? I saw some blatant rule infractions at the last match (not Beckley) that I attended. USPSA teaches safety by DQing you for infractions, why is this less prevalent in the GSSF?

SARDG
08-11-2012, 22:19
SARDG I've noticed a lot of ROs tend to watch the action as opposed to running it.
Sadly, this is true...

Myself I got busted putting my finger in the trigger guard last year in Lexington and quickly broke the habit but I wonder if this is more often missed than I thought? I saw some blatant rule infractions at the last match (not Beckley) that I attended.
It's missed a ton! And if the RO doesn't stand on the shooter's strong side, they have no chance of seeing it -and that means moving to the left side for southpaws. (only)

USPSA teaches safety by DQing you for infractions, why is this less prevalent in the GSSF?
I think we're not trying to bust people, so much as teach them. But by missing countless infractions that slide by, we're not teaching them much at all about other sanctiioned shooting sports and what to expect.

mike g35
08-11-2012, 22:22
That's what I call an answer!!! Thanks SARDG!!! :wavey:

SARDG
08-11-2012, 22:33
Here are 2 shots of an RO using the correct hand for the timer and held in the correct position for the shooter to hear and the timer to pick up the shots (even if the sensitivity is turned down for close-by stages) - and watching the gun/shooter during the CoF.

http://i879.photobucket.com/albums/ab353/kenicolai/KittyRO-SteveB.jpg

http://i879.photobucket.com/albums/ab353/kenicolai/KittyRO3.jpg

ede
08-12-2012, 06:43
I'm not smart enough to post photos or videos. I use the arms/elbows touching body start position. The best, and old GSSF method I seen for starting without a holster was to use a painted spot on the ground/target/plate to aim at. Very consistant and not much room for deviation.

When I RO GSSF I like to hold timer in my strong hand and block the view of the targets with the timer and watch the pistol. USPSA is a little more difficult to block targets with the timer but I still watch the gun, much easier to have an issue with gun handeling in USPSA but more likely in GSSF.

DannyR
08-12-2012, 07:16
GSSF RO's are usually volunteer range members. Level I USPSA RO's must take a class, written test and field test, and must requalify with written tests. There is a lot of difference between little training and intense training.

Personally , I use the low ready, pistol muzzle pointed down at the ground at a 45% angle. GSSF used to paint an orange marker about 10 feet out, to assist shooters in finding the "low ready."

At our indoor series in Roanoke, Simon and I make sure every shooter starts at the low-ready position. trigger finger off the trigger.

Gary1911A1
08-12-2012, 08:14
I use a position similar to the OP in his video with my elbows touching my sides. ede showed me a similar position years ago.:wavey:

mike g35
08-12-2012, 08:16
GSSF RO's are usually volunteer range members. Level I USPSA RO's must take a class, written test and field test, and must requalify with written tests. There is a lot of difference between little training and intense training.

Personally , I use the low ready, pistol muzzle pointed down at the ground at a 45% angle. GSSF used to paint an orange marker about 10 feet out, to assist shooters in finding the "low ready."

At our indoor series in Roanoke, Simon and I make sure every shooter starts at the low-ready position. trigger finger off the trigger.
So just to clarify this for me Danny when I was pointing at the barrel yesterday (finger off the trigger, muzzle down at a 45 degree angle, behind the barrel as you may have seen) was I correct? Is this up to the discretion of the RO?

DannyR
08-12-2012, 08:24
Mike, your pistol should be aimed at the ground 10 feet in front of the barrel. It is also up to the shooter to select the approved ready position of choice, not the RO. The RO must be aware of the various approved positions and should speak out if one is not used.

mike g35
08-12-2012, 09:21
Mike, your pistol should be aimed at the ground 10 feet in front of the barrel. It is also up to the shooter to select the approved ready position of choice, not the RO. The RO must be aware of the various approved positions and should speak out if one is not used.

And that why I call you coach. Thank you Danny. I know it's strange having someone who's not new to the game ask these questions but I'm reworking my entire approach to GSSF starting today which includes brushing up on the rules and their definitions along with practical application. I'm even considering volunteering at some matches next year and I will need to be at the top of my game to do so. I RO (stand in for an RO actually) at local USPSA matches which I'm much more familiar with, no reason not to do the same at GSSF matches after I get a firm handle on things. I have a lot to do though, and sadly alot to buy. Standardizing my gear (sights, triggers, etc) won't come cheap but it's far more than necessary if I want to start moving past my 100-150 score brick wall. I was a little discouraged after adding my scores yesterday where I thought I had did better. I got a lot of tips from top level shooters and those in the know and I figured out my approach isn't helping me and neither is my gear. You can't buy a win by buying the best gear but you can improve your chances by using the same gear over avid over and over and over and....... You get my point. :wavey:

SARDG
08-12-2012, 11:04
GSSF RO's are usually volunteer range members. Level I USPSA RO's must take a class, written test and field test, and must requalify with written tests. There is a lot of difference between little training and intense training...
...as is true for IDPA SOs who, unlike GSSF, must first be IDPA members/shooters/competitors. In other words, you must practice the sport, before policing the sport. Not true in GSSF, nor is Glock ownership a prerequisite. I don't believe there are any real prerequisites, but Cindy Noyes is one GSSF MD (Conyers) who sends out questionaires to volunteers to gauge their experience before assigning them. Of course, she is also a GSSF Match Coordinator - and a USPSA shooter/RO.

IDPA SOs also have class training, an extensive practicum (practical range work), and an exam. They must also design at least one CoF.

GSSF commands seem closest to IDPA commands in general, but most of the GSSF staff and many GSSF RO volunteers are USPSA shooters - and I hear USPSA commands frequently.

I run ladies' events at my club and have to recruit our club ROs and Instructors all the time to pull them off. By the same token these GSSF matches couldn't happen at all if not for the volunteers. I just wish there was more and better training for them all.

Before I shot my first GSSF match, I read not only the rules - but all the RO Guides available at the time. All our competitors - ROs or not - could benefit from reading those guides.

SARDG
08-12-2012, 11:42
From the 2012 RO Guide:

"Start Position: Standing on the centerline of the target array, facing
downrange in an accepted “ready” position. (Firearm held in hands with
muzzle pointed into berm, no higher than parallel to the ground or lower
with competitor’s forearms touching the torso. OR “Low Ready”; arms
extended, gun pointing down at the ground at about a 45 degree angle.
On start signal, gun is raised from the shoulders, not from the wrists.
Prior to start signal, trigger finger must be outside the firearm’s trigger
guard."

From the rules in The Glock Report:

130.60 "Start position. Follow Range Officer instructions
at all times at each stage. After the Range Officer
has directed you to handle and load your firearm
(“Make Ready”), you will start in one of the two acceptable
“ready” positions. Hold your firearm in
your hands, with your forearms touching your torso.
The GLOCK muzzle is pointed into the impact
berm behind the targets, parallel to the ground or
lower, at the ground between you and the targets.
Alternatively, hold your firearm in the “Low Ready”
position; both arms holding the firearm, arms
roughly straight, firearm pointed at the ground NO
MORE THAN about 6 feet in front of the shooter, at
the sole judgment of the Range Officer. Finger(s)
must be outside of the firearm’s trigger guard."

Going back to high school geometry, we can see that "6 feet in front of the shooter" would be slightly different angles (degrees) for different height shooters. Also, for shorter shooters, 6 feet may not clear a bench or other platform that the shooter is using. I can't see however, how 6 feet wouldn't clear a barrel for any shooter. Nonetheless, "at the sole judgment of the Range Officer" gives the RO some latitude when making this call. That latitude should never involve a position that's only 15-30 degrees below parallel - and certainly never pointing straight at the targets as I have seen on occassion.

To continue...
From all Courses of Fire in The Glock Report:

"Start Position: Standing on the centerline of the target array, facing downrange in the “ready” or “low ready” position. (Ready: Firearm held in hands with muzzle pointed into berm, no higher than parallel to the ground or lower with competitor’s forearms touching the torso. On start signal, Firearm is “punched” out at the targets. Low Ready; Arms extended, Firearm pointed at ground about 6’ in front of shooter. On start signal, Firearm is swung up from the shoulders, wrists locked. Finger(s) must be outside the firearm’s trigger guard until start signal sounds)."

mike g35
08-12-2012, 12:02
How can I get an RO guide?

SARDG
08-12-2012, 12:08
How can I get an RO guide?
http://www.gssfonline.com/range-officer.cfm

SARDG
08-12-2012, 12:14
How can I get an RO guide?
...and if you click my screen name to the left and e-mail me (no PM), I'll send you excerpts from the IDPA SO Syllabus demonstrating the similarities in the two - and reiterating much of what is in the GSSF rules and RO Guide.

emtjr928
08-12-2012, 13:45
Normal newb disclaimer applies! The shooter needs to comply with one of two start conditions: 1- If shooter prefers to start with arms extended, muzzle must point down no more than approx. 6 feet in front of the shooter. 2- Alternately, shooter may elect to start with forearms(between elbow and wrist) touching the torso with the muzzle no higher than parallel to the ground pointing into the berm. That seems to cover it from all rules sources.

DannyR
08-12-2012, 14:24
I'm 5'1" tall, so 10 feet works for me.:whistling:

SARDG
08-12-2012, 14:43
I'm 5'1" tall, so 10 feet works for me.:whistling:
Prolly right... but I'm 7' tall so I'd still clear the barrel at 3' out - but I'm taking my 6'. :tongueout:


Hmmm... shorter folks have an occasional advantage at these. No wonder my scores are awful.

I'm gonna lend Mike that excuse too. He may be looking for a new one for the next match. We can call him Too Tall. :whistling: :supergrin:

DannyR
08-12-2012, 15:33
The old timers here well remember Krag and his book of excuses. Mike now has an autographed copy of Krag's 144 excuses.:rofl:

mike g35
08-12-2012, 15:37
Prolly right... but I'm 7' tall so I'd still clear the barrel at 3' out - but I'm taking my 6'. :tongueout:


Hmmm... shorter folks have an occasional advantage at these. No wonder my scores are awful.

I'm gonna lend Mike that excuse too. He may be looking for a new one for the next match. We can call him Too Tall. :whistling: :supergrin:
Uh oh, here we go again. :tongueout::rofl:

Im always up for a new excuse!!!! Thanks Kitty!!! LOL:tongueout:
Is it sad or what that after one year I'm just now figuring out I need the same sights on all my guns???LOL if you heed another set of Advantage Tacticals let me know. Tried em, hate em.

SARDG
08-12-2012, 15:56
...if you heed another set of Advantage Tacticals let me know. Tried em, hate em.
I ordered one set to try on my new 26 'cause I knew I was taking off the stock sights anyway as soon as I got it. I installed every front sight shim in the bag and the 26 still shoots 2" high at 11yds. I don't get it. I need to go back to the range and see what's going on.

I was hoping to like them and put them on everything. Right now, TruGlos are on everything else, and all my stock (match) guns have the same (-) connectors and polish jobs. I also shoot my 17 in Comp instead of my 34 to warm up for Master Stock. Just trying to keep all the hardware as similar as possible throughout a match.

DannyR
08-12-2012, 16:29
Kitty,

Try two pink shims, seriously. I was using ATS sights when the front sight came loose while shooting the 5TG. They are now for sale, cheap.

SARDG
08-12-2012, 16:38
Kitty,

Try two pink shims, seriously. I was using ATS sights when the front sight came loose while shooting the 5TG. They are now for sale, cheap.
I'll try 2-pinks when I get to the range, but initially I shot and then added shims according their suggestion for adjusting the correct MOA, eventually adding them all. Right now, it looks like a big ol' wart sitting up on the front of my slide. If these things really work and I like them, I will buy those from you.

mike g35
08-12-2012, 17:34
I'll try 2-pinks when I get to the range, but initially I shot and then added shims according their suggestion for adjusting the correct MOA, eventually adding them all. Right now, it looks like a big ol' wart sitting up on the front of my slide. If these things really work and I like them, I will buy those from you.
They may work, you'll have to keep us posted. I emailed Bobby earlier today, I'm going to switch to all black Dawson adj rears and .125w all black Dawson fronts on all my guns. They aren't bad sights, the theory is sound, but for me they're just one more thing that's different. I'm sticking with post and notch all black traditional type sights. They've worked for others for a long long time, I'm hoping the same thing holds true for me.

S.Kargoh
08-13-2012, 20:25
Just stumbled across this video.

What are yeur thoughts on this start position ?

Brian Garret Shoots Glock The Plates At GSSF - YouTube

SARDG
08-13-2012, 20:46
Just stumbled across this video.

What are yeur thoughts on this start position ?

Brian Garret Shoots Glock The Plates At GSSF - YouTube
I'd call him on it in a second - without blinking an eye!

ETA: I can see I'll have to graphically demonstrate during the next RO Briefing.

S.Kargoh
08-13-2012, 20:58
What if the rule book had a simple line drawing of the two styles? The lingo can get misinterpreted (even though it seems straightforward). Some people just can't read a technical manual and implement it.

MrVvrroomm
08-13-2012, 21:00
The first thought is that the guy sucks at shooting the plates.

ron59
08-13-2012, 21:39
The first thought is that the guy sucks at shooting the plates.

The "sweep back and forth" with the pistol once the rack is completed made me chuckle. way too "tactical timmy" for me. Dude, they're down. There's not another one gonna pop up and shoot at you.

SARDG
08-13-2012, 21:49
What if the rule book had a simple line drawing of the two styles? The lingo can get misinterpreted (even though it seems straightforward). Some people just can't read a technical manual and implement it.
If folks actually read the rules, that could help... but seriously, 45 degrees or 6 feet isn't that technical.

The rule book could say that venues will paint an 'X' or supply a cone to be placed at 6' from the line and that shooters will start with their muzzle pointed at the X or cone - or something to that affect. That way, only the venue MD would have to read and interpret the rules - not so much every CRO. Or GSSF could supply the small cones - just throw them in their truck with everything else.

SARDG
08-13-2012, 21:59
The "sweep back and forth" with the pistol once the rack is completed made me chuckle. way too "tactical timmy" for me. Dude, they're down. There's not another one gonna pop up and shoot at you.
We teach follow-through in NRA class. Although the YouTube may be a tactical extreme, it's certainly better than what I do - shoot at my last plate and bring the gun down as though I hit it. Sometimes I do hit it... :rofl:

You can't be too tough on everything tactical Ron - some of these folks are LEOs. There are also plenty of LEO Masters who can no longer shoot in Guardian so it may not be immediately apparent that they are law enforcement.

BamaTrooper
08-13-2012, 22:07
S. - Great ready position from what I see. The RO however is standing on your left side and you are right-handed, so he can't see your trigger finger if it gets on the trigger prematurely. Same with Mike's video - assuming you're a right-handed shooter, Mike.

Would that depend on how short the trigger finger is?

BamaTrooper
08-13-2012, 22:11
Just stumbled across this video.

What are your thoughts on this start position ?

Brian Garret Shoots Glock The Plates At GSSF - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZYabK_T7qw)

That it isn't correct per the rules.

SARDG
08-13-2012, 22:15
Would that depend on how short the trigger finger is?
Hmmm... well, the trigger finger wouldn't normally 'stick through' no matter how short or long your finger as we are all using the pad of our finger to shoot. :whistling: So... I would have to say 'no'.

SARDG
08-14-2012, 00:47
The first thought is that the guy sucks at shooting the plates.
I looked at his scores...
100.xx AmCiv (Oops, not LE)
93.xx SubCompact

No misses on plates though - for both Divisions.

S.Kargoh
08-14-2012, 05:49
Well, this is just an aside, not really relevant for the thread topic as stated in the title, but
A: obviously he doesn't suck. He may not be the fastest, but is clearly capable of decent times
B: he probably took a defensive class where the instructor taught him to search and assess that way. Maybe he is just trying to be consistent with his gun handling because he only did the gssf shoot yo see what it would be like to shoot under a little stress. This is just speculation.

ron59
08-14-2012, 07:45
We teach follow-through in NRA class. Although the YouTube may be a tactical extreme, it's certainly better than what I do - shoot at my last plate and bring the gun down as though I hit it. Sometimes I do hit it... :rofl:

You can't be too tough on everything tactical Ron - some of these folks are LEOs. There are also plenty of LEO Masters who can no longer shoot in Guardian so it may not be immediately apparent that they are law enforcement.


Quite the contrary.... I can.

BamaTrooper
08-14-2012, 08:49
I looked at his scores...
100.xx AmCiv (Oops, not LE) 93.xx SubCompact

No misses on plates though - for both Divisions.

Do I detect a snarky comment:whistling:

SARDG
08-14-2012, 09:06
Do I detect a snarky comment:whistling:
Not at all... I had given a reason for his tactical moves as being a LEO perhaps. But not so.

S.Kargoh
08-14-2012, 12:34
http://i48.tinypic.com/5l16i8.jpg

Or


Read a couple paragraphs.


Or both.

mike g35
08-14-2012, 13:08
The old timers here well remember Krag and his book of excuses. Mike now has an autographed copy of Krag's 144 excuses.:rofl:

No, no, no.....my excuses are my own and they are original thoughts. Geez Danny, give me credit for something LOL:tongueout::rofl:

Glockrunner
08-14-2012, 14:56
http://i48.tinypic.com/5l16i8.jpg

Or


Read a couple paragraphs.


Or both.

GOSH DERN!
I like it:rofl: Think I'll steal it an post one at every stage this year:supergrin:

With your permission of course!:cool:

yobohadi
08-14-2012, 21:13
http://i48.tinypic.com/5l16i8.jpg

Or


Read a couple paragraphs.


Or both.

I don't think I can keep both hands on the pistol if my elbows were that far back.:supergrin:

S.Kargoh
08-14-2012, 21:17
Guess you have to shoot Bremerton one handed!

BamaTrooper
08-15-2012, 07:37
Not at all... I had given a reason for his tactical moves as being a LEO perhaps. But not so.

If he was a REAL LEO, he would have made a 360 scan after returning to position Sul:whistling:

mike g35
08-15-2012, 08:19
Just an observation but looking at S. Kargoh's diagram got me thinking, wouldn't starting at low ready, the exact way as in the diagram but with your stance lowered be advantageous? I mean the lower you are the shorter the angle and the less you'll have to move your arms to engage the targets. Not everyone stands straight up and not everyone uses an isosceles stance. I use a weaver stance ( habit from shooting USPSA and bring ready to move) and I know there are alot of shooters that get extremely low before the buzzer.

yobohadi
08-15-2012, 08:33
Guess you have to shoot Bremerton one handed!

I should try it. Maybe I will shoot better.

bryandover
08-15-2012, 08:40
Just an observation but looking at S. Kargoh's diagram got me thinking, wouldn't starting at low ready, the exact way as in the diagram but with your stance lowered be advantageous? I mean the lower you are the shorter the angle and the less you'll have to move your arms to engage the targets. Not everyone stands straight up and not everyone uses an isosceles stance. I use a weaver stance ( habit from shooting USPSA and bring ready to move) and I know there are alot of shooters that get extremely low before the buzzer.

I'm about as short as they come. If I bent over much I couldn't see over the barrel. :upeyes:

SARDG
08-15-2012, 10:11
...360 scan...
Yikes!

PM720
08-15-2012, 16:25
If he was a REAL LEO, he would have made a 360 scan after returning to position Sul:whistling:

With a donut in his hand? :whistling::supergrin:

Scott

BamaTrooper
08-16-2012, 07:57
With a donut in his hand? :whistling::supergrin:

Scott

Homer Simpson sound effects--Doughnuts.mp4 - YouTube

Glockrunner
08-16-2012, 08:03
Yikes!

That did happen to me in Orlando! I got a grap on him and the pistol just as he faced me and freaked him out as I was yelling STOP.

SARDG
08-16-2012, 08:33
...made a 360 scan...

Yikes!

That did happen to me in Orlando! I got a grap on him and the pistol just as he faced me and freaked him out as I was yelling STOP.
Yeah, STOP is another often-overlooked range command. In our NRA classes we review range commands prior to stepping on the range, but in GSSF it's up to the competitor to read and understand the rules and all those commands on their own.

kyglockshooter 2.0
08-16-2012, 09:31
Sadly, this is true...

I think we're not trying to bust people, so much as teach them. But by missing countless infractions that slide by, we're not teaching them much at all about other sanctiioned shooting sports and what to expect.

I see lots of these things that are missed but the fact that most ro's are volunteers its hard to expect all infractions are caught

My biggest suggestion/gripe is people that take off their glasses i have been hit soo many times hard enough to draw blood through a decently thick shirt. Now if that had been a eyeball without glasses on the eye would lose. I used to them off but now after many scars from shrapnel I will no longer risk it

SARDG
08-16-2012, 10:12
I see lots of these things that are missed but the fact that most ro's are volunteers its hard to expect all infractions are caught...
Okay...... but I've supervised a lot of volunteers over the years and my feeling and mantra is "once you raise your hand, you are no longer a volunteer". In other words, why would I want to accept a sub-standard job from volunteers, that I wouldn't accept from paid employees - especially those volunteers who are responsible for the safety and well-being of literally hundreds of people over the weekend period.

I'm a volunteer Instructor and RO at my club and they couldn't get one single ounce more or any better performance out of me if they paid me $100,000 a year.

One difference between an employer/employee relationship and a GSSF/volunteer relationship is ongoing training. Real companies will train real paid employees to do their best and to reduce liability. GSSF volunteers are largely left on their own to glean information and training - but it's out there.

BamaTrooper
08-16-2012, 10:18
Yikes!

Think owl's head turn, not a ballerina pirouette.

Glockrunner
08-16-2012, 15:29
Think owl's head turn, not a ballerina pirouette.

My guy made it just past the 180 in a SUL hold. It wasn't a owl head turn. Had he turned to his left I don't know what I could have done but put him on the ground in a bear hug.

SARDG
08-16-2012, 16:17
My guy made it just past the 180... ...I don't know what I could have done but put him on the ground in a bear hug.
I wonder if GSSF would frown on that... :) but you've got to think about nuetralizing the threat to you and others. Accidents are just as deadly as forethought and malice.

If a shooter is slowly drifting aimlessly with a muzzle and with little thought, a "Muzzle" command may get them back on track. Things happen very quickly though.

I've had shooters get hot brass down their shirt or top and (try to) go at it with the muzzle, I've had a (female) shooter break her nail and (try to) sweep past the 180 with the muzzle to examine it. I have many shooters (try to) insist on holding their muzzle at the 180 to pull the slide back and clear it - and some of those also sweeping their forearm in the process.


In IDPA we had a full pirouette-plus - but that was this shooter's last straw and he was banned from IDPA at the club. Never saw some of those old guys move so fast as that day when they were certain death was imminent...