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RockyMtnJack
08-12-2012, 14:50
I don't want to stir up the pot on this issue but I thought some of you guys might find this article interesting. http://www.gazette.com/articles/say-143057-gun-springs.html This man was detained and arrested for open carrying a pistol in a local park despite his protests that it was perfectly legal. Apparently the cops were working off an outdated 'cheat sheet' for city laws. Outdated is putting it mildly. Open carry has been legal in city parks here for 10 years! What disturbs me the most about this incident is that none of the 3 cops on the scene, including a sergeant, were aware of the current status of the law. This doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy. What say you?

Bruce M
08-12-2012, 15:40
It certainly suggests that the department should both update whatever devices its officers use for field research of laws and update how those devices are reviewed. It also perhaps suggests that openly carrying handguns might not be especially popular in most areas within the city.

bear62
08-12-2012, 16:25
I don't want to stir up the pot on this issue but I thought some of you guys might find this article interesting. http://www.gazette.com/articles/say-143057-gun-springs.html This man was detained and arrested for open carrying a pistol in a local park despite his protests that it was perfectly legal. Apparently the cops were working off an outdated 'cheat sheet' for city laws. Outdated is putting it mildly. Open carry has been legal in city parks here for 10 years! What disturbs me the most about this incident is that none of the 3 cops on the scene, including a sergeant, were aware of the current status of the law. This doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy. What say you?

I say that is pathetic.......

TBO
08-12-2012, 16:29
Heck of a first post.
Welcome to Glock Talk.

sheriff733
08-12-2012, 16:30
Heck of a first post.
Welcome to Glock Talk.

227050


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

Patchman
08-12-2012, 16:34
IApparently the cops were working off an outdated 'cheat sheet' for city laws. Outdated is putting it mildly. Open carry has been legal in city parks here for 10 years! What disturbs me the most about this incident is that none of the 3 cops on the scene, including a sergeant, were aware of the current status of the law. This doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy. What say you?


That's why we need to privatize the police to the lowest bidder.

Saves me money and things like this could never happen in private industry.

diamondd2
08-12-2012, 16:39
Out of 2 officers and one seargent someone should have been up to date on the local laws. Especially if the action has been legal for 10yrs.

Drain You
08-12-2012, 16:43
You can't expect everyone to know all of the laws all of the time, even police officers, even their Sgts. But gun laws are different, and they should have known better.

jr05
08-12-2012, 19:13
That's why we need to privatize the police to the lowest bidder.

Saves me money and things like this could never happen in private industry.

Things like this could never happen in the private industry? I assume you are kidding...because you have to know this statement is ridiculous.

Lee-online
08-12-2012, 19:29
"Ignorance of the law is no excuse"

IhRedrider
08-12-2012, 20:57
You can't expect everyone to know all of the laws all of the time, even police officers, even their Sgts.


This says that our current set of laws are to cumbersome for the average citizen if those who are paid to enforce the laws cannot keep up with our out of control legislator. OR the people we pay to enforce the law are incompetent due to ignorance.

OR maybe both?

diamondd2
08-13-2012, 04:44
"Ignorance of the law is no excuse"

That's a one way street only.

RussP
08-13-2012, 05:05
"Ignorance of the law is no excuse"That's a one way street only.What??

Sixburgh
08-13-2012, 05:12
Is there any consequences for the LEO's for doing such a thing or is it just one of those 'my bad, man' things?

Spiffums
08-13-2012, 06:04
Heck of a first post.
Welcome to Glock Talk.

And with a join date of 2008.

boomhower
08-13-2012, 06:25
Is there any consequences for the LEO's for doing such a thing or is it just one of those 'my bad, man' things?

He could push a civil rights suite. It's one thing for charges to be dropped due to lack if evidence for a conviction but another for being arrested when in fact the action was not illegal. Essentially a civil rights violation.


Sent from my iPhone 4S using Tapatalk

CitizenOfDreams
08-13-2012, 07:03
What??
What would happen to a civilian who restrained someone for doing something he thought was illegal?

RussP
08-13-2012, 08:13
Everyone, please, this is Carry Issues. Let's discuss the facts of this incident that is directly related to carry issues.

If you want to discuss other aspects, start a new thread in another forum.

Thanks...

Stevekozak
08-13-2012, 08:50
This is an interesting case. I read the article and viewed the Youtube video (link: Arrested for open display of a gun at acacia park in Colorado Springs CO - YouTube ). Unfortunately you cannot see how the encounter began (that might be somewhat important) but it does appear that the officers were definately in the wrong here, wheither by ignorance of current law or by design. The OC'er in the video is loud, but he is also right about the issue, in my opinion. His "partner" was really not helping him out much, especially when he told him to go ahead and take his gun off after the cops had warned him not too (it also amused me when he asked him if the army could do anything). The officer at the end of the video, who took his gun, was rather abrasive and may regret his choice of words in telling the OCer that he is "about to get the s@#t kicked out of you" and that he "is going to get jacked up". The video is about 13 minutes long, and it suprised me, that for most of that 13 minutes the OC'er maintained possession of his firearm and was pretty free to move his hands about, given the arrest and detention at the end. One further note, is that the OC'er did not mention the possibility of having be stopped for reasons of sexual preference until 8:14 into the video. That could lead one to conclude that the OC'er did indeed believe that the issue was one of gun rights, and not of other civil liberty issues. It really would be good to have seen the beginning of the encounter to get a better grasp on things. Should be interesting case to follow.

Glock_9mm
08-13-2012, 08:54
I do not know how the day to day operations work inside a police department, but I am surprised that local CO departments did not address open carry policies after what happened with the James Mapes case in Thornton. Now this is two instances in the last few weeks in Colorado where the OC'er was detained and later the charges were dropped. Granted I only heard of this because I am on this forum, but I would think local elected officials notice these types of things and would not want their department to look bad.
Scott

BenjiEDF
08-13-2012, 09:13
I hope he wins that law suit he filed against the department.

CA Escapee
08-13-2012, 12:02
Is there any consequences for the LEO's for doing such a thing or is it just one of those 'my bad, man' things?

I know of two instances in CA where a gun owner was in the process of being raked over the coals by a local PD and the courts when the Cal Guns Foundation stepped in, defended the person and won the case.

As I recall in the one instance with the San Fernando PD part of the settlement was that SFPD paid out about $45K, set up a training program for the officers. The second case was in Brawley, CA and I don't recall the facts of that case; same result though.

Bill

CA Escapee
08-13-2012, 12:29
In my post above I mentioned a case in Brawley, CA. It actually happened in Calexico, CA. The firearm in question was a shotgun. The defendant was charged under the section of code dealing with unlawful carrying of a concealed handgun. If anyone is interested here's a link to the case.

http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/news-blog/press.html

Bill

Gunnut 45/454
08-13-2012, 14:57
Probably not the best way to handle the situation. But I can feel for the guy knowing he is being falsely arrested for an legal act. I see big dollars in his future- an a Local PD being sued most deservingly so! Well if a couple of those officers loose there jobs for lack of funds -they brought it on themselves!:faint:

MKEgal
08-13-2012, 20:38
You can't expect everyone to know all of the laws all of the time, even police officers, even their Sgts.
I can't tell if you meant this sarcastically or not.
Why is it people (esp. courts) are willing to give law enforcement officers a pass when it comes to not knowing the law, when it's part of the requirements for their job (that our money pays them to do)?

If laws are so unclear or contorted, why are normal everyday citizens expected to know all of them ("ignorance of the law is no excuse")?

As someone who has been wrongfully arrested because of open carrying (twice, 2 different departments) I hope this guy kicks them in the shins repeatedly & with vigor.
(Metaphorically speaking, of course... it's rare to be able to really do that to an officer & get away with it. I have.) :whistling:

TBO
08-13-2012, 21:34
I can't tell if you meant this sarcastically or not.
Why is it people (esp. courts) are willing to give law enforcement officers a pass when it comes to not knowing the law, when it's part of the requirements for their job (that our money pays them to do)?

If laws are so unclear or contorted, why are normal everyday citizens expected to know all of them ("ignorance of the law is no excuse")?

As someone who has been wrongfully arrested because of open carrying (twice, 2 different departments) I hope this guy kicks them in the shins repeatedly & with vigor.
(Metaphorically speaking, of course... it's rare to be able to really do that to an officer & get away with it. I have.) :whistling:
Intellectual honesty and critical thinking time:

A non-Cop doesn't have to know all the laws, but should make sure they are aware of the laws relating to the individual things they are interested in/partaking in (no reason for a firearm deer hunter single sport partaker to delve into the rules/regs on spear fishing, for example, while someone non-resident hunting in another state should bone up on the game/firearm/transportation laws in the state(s) invovled).

A Cop may come across any of the library of laws, statutes, ordinances, orders, etc that fill a major book shelf.

As stated, it's impossible for for a person to know all of them, or keep currant on all (there are constant changes).

We do expect Cops to be knowledgeable, and competent and exercise good judgement.

While not from the area, I too would like uniformed officers to be knowledgeable about local carry laws. I also know how a cheat sheet can cause errors by being outdated (again, constant change).

In one of my actual experiences, as a young patrol Cop I observed/cited a person for a School Bus Stop Arm Violation (with children outside the bus), and released him.
The court called a couple weeks later confused about the charge, and then it was resolved with a fine.
The reason for the court confusion? The statute had been changed... not just a sub-statute, but the one I cited was repealed and a very closely numbered statute created.
The guy got off with a fine, when what he had actually committed was now a Gross Misdemeanor, not a simple Petty Misdemeanor, or even a full Misdemeanor. I could have/should have placed him in jail for the offense. Instead, he got to pay a small fine and not have a major on his Driver Record or Criminal History.

It cuts both ways at times.

Respectfully

TBO

brisk21
08-14-2012, 07:53
The cops did not handle this situation very well at all. They let their egos get in the way of diffusing the situation. Simply just bad police work. The detainee was offering little resistance, yet the fat black officer began to threaten the man with deadly force. He seemed to be trying to escalate the situation. They could have had a friendly chat with the man, made a phone call to an attorney regarding the open carry laws, and went about on their day. They could have even explained that he is causing "civil unrest", and asked him to "do them a favor" and conceal the weapon, if he has a permit to do so. Like I said, just piss poor police work. The cops and dispachers really need to start explaining to people reporting open carry that it is completely legal to do so unless there is clearly threatening behavior by the person carrying.

TBO
08-14-2012, 08:24
Why do you say it's because of ego?

Sent from my mind using Tapatalk 2

brisk21
08-14-2012, 09:22
Why do you say it's because of ego?

Sent from my mind using Tapatalk 2


Because these cops, (like many cops) have an enflated ego and are letting it get in the way of having a civilized conversation with this guy. They would rather stand around, letting this guy get all upset than just get off their high horses and talk to him like a man. They completely caused this arrest to happen. Then, the fat black cop gets all cowboy on this guy and the other cops just let it happen. Terrible police work.

Bruce M
08-14-2012, 09:41
Because these cops, (like many cops) have an enflated ego and are letting it get in the way of having a civilized conversation with this guy. They would rather stand around, letting this guy get all upset than just get off their high horses and talk to him like a man. They completely caused this arrest to happen. Then, the fat black cop gets all cowboy on this guy and the other cops just let it happen. Terrible police work.

Maybe this is a matter of opinion. My opinion is that the officers were reserved and the guy, to a big extent, caused much of his problem by raising his voice and swearing. Neither of which seem especially civilized.

I would agree that there was some terrible police work there. In what was a threshold inquiry, I believe the officers should have disarmed him, especially when he was agitated.

eaglefrq
08-14-2012, 09:57
My question is simply this...

When the open carrier was adamant that he was correct about being able to open carry, why didn't one of the many officers present make a simple phone call to verify the law?

I'm sure if they had done that, and then acknowledged the man was correct, a quick apology with the statement, we will get these guides updated and then let him go; this would have been a non issue.

In regards to the ignorance of the law issues raised; how many times have you (LE) let someone off with a warning instead of a ticket or charging them? How many times have some of you been let off with a warning instead of getting a ticket or charged? I think both sides should have some latitude regarding this issue.

I believe with the increased amount of CC permits and weapons sales that LE departments should be increasing their training to ensure these incidents are minimized or don't occur.

brisk21
08-14-2012, 10:56
Maybe this is a matter of opinion. My opinion is that the officers were reserved and the guy, to a big extent, caused much of his problem by raising his voice and swearing. Neither of which seem especially civilized.

I would agree that there was some terrible police work there. In what was a threshold inquiry, I believe the officers should have disarmed him, especially when he was agitated.


Yes they should have disarmed him right away. He didn't get loud until he realized that the officers were playing games with him. They had no right to detain him and then let him sit there stewing. They could have easily diffused the situation and they chose not to. They are lucky that Im not their boss. They would be directing traffic for the next 6 months. Right after an in-person apology to the guy they arrested.

brisk21
08-14-2012, 11:00
Intellectual honesty and critical thinking time:

A non-Cop doesn't have to know all the laws, but should make sure they are aware of the laws relating to the individual things they are interested in/partaking in (no reason for a firearm deer hunter single sport partaker to delve into the rules/regs on spear fishing, for example, while someone non-resident hunting in another state should bone up on the game/firearm/transportation laws in the state(s) invovled).

A Cop may come across any of the library of laws, statutes, ordinances, orders, etc that fill a major book shelf.

As stated, it's impossible for for a person to know all of them, or keep currant on all (there are constant changes).

We do expect Cops to be knowledgeable, and competent and exercise good judgement.

While not from the area, I too would like uniformed officers to be knowledgeable about local carry laws. I also know how a cheat sheet can cause errors by being outdated (again, constant change).

In one of my actual experiences, as a young patrol Cop I observed/cited a person for a School Bus Stop Arm Violation (with children outside the bus), and released him.
The court called a couple weeks later confused about the charge, and then it was resolved with a fine.
The reason for the court confusion? The statute had been changed... not just a sub-statute, but the one I cited was repealed and a very closely numbered statute created.
The guy got off with a fine, when what he had actually committed was now a Gross Misdemeanor, not a simple Petty Misdemeanor, or even a full Misdemeanor. I could have/should have placed him in jail for the offense. Instead, he got to pay a small fine and not have a major on his Driver Record or Criminal History.

It cuts both ways at times.

Respectfully

TBO



Yeah well cops need to know a particular law if they intend to enforce it. These idiots didn't. If they don't know or aren't sure, they either need to make a phone call or ignore the issue. Its amazing what happens to some people when they put on a uniform.

B.Reid
08-14-2012, 11:03
Never take legal advice from a cop. Most don't have a clue. Just like at your job, how many really know what is going on?

Bren
08-14-2012, 11:03
Because these cops, (like many cops) have an enflated ego and are letting it get in the way of having a civilized conversation with this guy. They would rather stand around, letting this guy get all upset than just get off their high horses and talk to him like a man. They completely caused this arrest to happen. Then, the fat black cop gets all cowboy on this guy and the other cops just let it happen. Terrible police work.

He knows all about cops - he's seen hundreds on TV.:upeyes:

Bren
08-14-2012, 11:12
We have, in the past, been warned that we can't compare OC activists to those over-the-top gay rights activists you see at things like a "Pride Fest." But if we have a case of an OC activist who is OCing while being a gay activist at a "pride Fest," does that rule still apply?:rofl:

“This is because I’m gay. I’m gay and carrying a weapon and I threaten you don’t I?”
:rofl:

At least he was only OCing his firearm.

Good thing he didn't really spend any jail time, or several GNG threads would have ground to a halt without his posts.:rofl:

I can go on and on....

TBO
08-14-2012, 11:24
Because these cops, (like many cops) have an enflated ego and are letting it get in the way of having a civilized conversation with this guy. They would rather stand around, letting this guy get all upset than just get off their high horses and talk to him like a man. They completely caused this arrest to happen. Then, the fat black cop gets all cowboy on this guy and the other cops just let it happen. Terrible police work.How do you know they have an inflated ego?

Bruce M
08-14-2012, 12:05
Yes they should have disarmed him right away. He didn't get loud until he realized that the officers were playing games with him. They had no right to detain him and then let him sit there stewing. They could have easily diffused the situation and they chose not to. They are lucky that Im not their boss. They would be directing traffic for the next 6 months. Right after an in-person apology to the guy they arrested.

Again, your opinion. However depending on what the officers knew and observed, detaining him may have been appropriate. And were I to guess more than a actual police supervisors and administrators might have a substantially different view point of acceptable conduct.

Bren
08-14-2012, 13:50
I believe the way this works is that if a counter-protestor type takes a gun to a gay pride festival, the police will be criticized for not detaining him. If one of the pro-gay participants takes a gun, the police will be criticized for detaining him. At the same time, the police are stereotyping and profiling if they claim they can tell the difference between the 2 and they're "turning a blind eye" to right wing wrongdoing if they claim they can't.

It all comes down to who has the loudest voice in the press, and that's not the conservative side of the argument.

RockyMtnJack
08-14-2012, 14:13
Just a quick update. According to a local TV newcast, Mayor Steve Bach has directed the Police Chief to conduct a full investigation into the incident. Can't wait to hear the results!

series1811
08-14-2012, 14:18
Never take legal advice from a cop. Most don't have a clue. Just like at your job, how many really know what is going on?

That's why I get my legal advice from the internet!

zbusdriver
08-14-2012, 14:35
That's why I get my legal advice from the internet!:rofl::rofl::rofl:

JW1178
08-14-2012, 15:40
NOT an OC activist by any means, and I feel that those who go to events like this an OC are kind of asking for it, but then again I am against violating someone to calm the scared sheep. Law enforcement is like any other profession, you have the good, bad, and ugly.

Bruce M
08-14-2012, 15:54
He knows all about cops - he's seen hundreds on TV.:upeyes:
:rofl::rofl:
That's why I get my legal advice from the internet!
:rofl::rofl:

RussP
08-14-2012, 15:55
That's why I get my legal advice from the internet!So, cops giving advice on the internet is okay, perhaps even more reliable?

Stevekozak
08-14-2012, 20:19
My opinion is that the officers were reserved and the guy, to a big extent, caused much of his problem by raising his voice and swearing. Neither of which seem especially civilized.


I am a very calm man, but I think that is someone had just informed me that I was "about the get the s@#t kicked out of me" and that I was about to "get jacked up" I might use some rather colorful language myself!! :wavey: What exact response would you be looking for, "yes, officer, kick the s@#t out of me and jack me up, please and thank you"? :dunno:

rmodel65
08-14-2012, 20:23
t the behest of the mayor and police chief, Colorado Springs police will conduct an “expedited review” of the mistaken arrest of a man openly carrying a pistol at Acacia Park in July.

Barbara Miller, police spokeswoman, wrote in a release that the Mayor Steve Bach and Police Chief Pete Carey agreed that the chief will immediately launch an investigation into the 24-year-old’s man July 21 arrested for an outdated law banning guns in parks.



Read more: http://www.gazette.com/articles/police-143146-mayor-colorado.html#ixzz23ZsQyzNT

CitizenOfDreams
08-15-2012, 04:16
why didn't one of the many officers present make a simple phone call to verify the law?

Because it never occured to them that they might be in the wrong?

I wonder if it would have helped if the open carrier showed them a printed copy of the law? Or would they just dismiss it?

eaglefrq
08-15-2012, 05:07
I wonder if it would have helped if the open carrier showed them a printed copy of the law? Or would they just dismiss it?

That's not necessarily a bad idea, in VA it is legal to go through a red light if you sit through two cycles or 120 seconds. I've had to do that on my motorcycle before and luckily, a cop was not around to witness it. However, I do have a copy of the statute that I carry in my jacket pocket.

Should I have to do something like this? No, but if I am going to be doing something that I think might cause concern why not carry the statute just to be on the safe side?

series1811
08-15-2012, 06:27
So, cops giving advice on the internet is okay, perhaps even more reliable?

Both should be guides on where to look to get the answer for yourself, not the answer.

You don't see people who actually read case law and statutes trying to boil laws down into sound bites.

Bren probably works harder than any poster I have seen, at trying to explain the nuances of laws, that are important and controlling.

When I see how often his very well written, and legally sound, posts are ignored, or disputed with things like, "well, if the law says that, the law is wrong", I kind of lose interest. :)

TBO
08-15-2012, 06:57
Because it never occured to them that they might be in the wrong?

I wonder if it would have helped if the open carrier showed them a printed copy of the law? Or would they just dismiss it?

Printed/made up?

Sent from my mind using Tapatalk 2

jph02
08-15-2012, 07:17
...why didn't one of the many officers present make a simple phone call to verify the law?
A couple people have suggested the cops should have called and verified the law. Who would they have called? The supervisor and dispatcher are probably using the same cheat sheet, so they would have gotten the same answer they'd already come up with on scene.

As for the investigation called for by the mayor, the results should tell the Chief he needs a procedure to ensure the cheat sheets are kept current with city ordinances. Is that the city attorney's job?

Because it never occured to them that they might be in the wrong?

I wonder if it would have helped if the open carrier showed them a printed copy of the law? Or would they just dismiss it?
Now there's a common sense suggestion. Assuming the copy of the law was from a credible source (and not just something anyone could spit out from a word processor), I think it would have made a difference. At the least, that might have prompted a phone call questioning the validity of the cheat sheet.

B.Reid
08-15-2012, 09:03
One of the problems with todays Police is they have become Law Enforcement Officers they used to be Peace Officers. When was the last time you saw "To Serve and Protect" on the side of a Police car? When they dropped the tie and patten leather shoes for Tactical Gear and select fire weapons the whole mentality changed.

bigtimelarry
08-15-2012, 09:12
He shoulda just kept it Concealed then he wouldn't have had to deal with the Police in the first place.. It's almost like he was looking to start something..
I would never walk around like Billy the Kid with my Pistol in plain sight..
Just flip your shirt over it and save a lot of people headaches..

eaglefrq
08-15-2012, 09:28
A couple people have suggested the cops should have called and verified the law. Who would they have called? The supervisor and dispatcher are probably using the same cheat sheet, so they would have gotten the same answer they'd already come up with on scene.

I don't know, maybe the D.A.'s office? I don't remember what day this happened, if it was the weekend there may not have been anyone available.

How about using a smart phone and look it up? Yes, the OC'er could have done that as well.

When I searched for the statute regarding red lights and motorcycles, it took me about 6 minutes to find it.

Now there's a common sense suggestion. Assuming the copy of the law was from a credible source (and not just something anyone could spit out from a word processor), I think it would have made a difference. At the least, that might have prompted a phone call questioning the validity of the cheat sheet.

Who would they have called?

CitizenOfDreams
08-15-2012, 09:36
Printed/made up?

Takes one radio call to find out, if you ever manage to convince the cop that there is a slight possibility he might be wrong about something.

CitizenOfDreams
08-15-2012, 09:38
Who would they have called?

Where does the police normally get legal information? They don't make laws on the spot (or at least they are not supposed to).

Chesafreak
08-15-2012, 09:47
I don't want to stir up the pot on this issue but I thought some of you guys might find this article interesting. http://www.gazette.com/articles/say-143057-gun-springs.html This man was detained and arrested for open carrying a pistol in a local park despite his protests that it was perfectly legal. Apparently the cops were working off an outdated 'cheat sheet' for city laws. Outdated is putting it mildly. Open carry has been legal in city parks here for 10 years! What disturbs me the most about this incident is that none of the 3 cops on the scene, including a sergeant, were aware of the current status of the law. This doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy. What say you?

This ^ is ONE of the reasons I got my CHP. I bought my Glock and asked three different LEO's (2 city and 1 HWP) about what I had to do to legally keep my gun in my car in case of a traffic stop. All three gave different answers, and one of them didn't really know what to say. At least with the CHP I don't have to worry about how its stored in my car if I'm pulled over. Of course there were other reasons not related to this post.

Bruce M
08-15-2012, 10:04
One of the problems with todays Police is they have become Law Enforcement Officers they used to be Peace Officers. When was the last time you saw "To Serve and Protect" on the side of a Police car? When they dropped the tie and patten leather shoes for Tactical Gear and select fire weapons the whole mentality changed.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/af/Prototype_Pontiac_G8_LAPD_Squad_Car.jpg

I would be curious if anyone has any actual data or studies regarding actual changes in police work.

RussP
08-15-2012, 10:09
I forgot my smilie at the end of that.Both should be guides on where to look to get the answer for yourself, not the answer.

You don't see people who actually read case law and statutes trying to boil laws down into sound bites.

Bren probably works harder than any poster I have seen, at trying to explain the nuances of laws, that are important and controlling.

When I see how often his very well written, and legally sound, posts are ignored, or disputed with things like, "well, if the law says that, the law is wrong", I kind of lose interest. :)You're right. Majority of the time cops on here know the law where they operate. Some actually go to the trouble of looking up statutes in other states to direct posters to the source. Or they use quoted code to explain why LE interactions go the way they do in other jurisdictions.

Soundbites usually are generally used for effect, to support one position or another. They sometimes lack "the rest of the story."

The difficulty comes when posters want the law to be black and white. Bren and others show that law is written in shades of grey. It is done on purpose. That, however, is a whole different thread in another forum.

:cool:

wjv
08-15-2012, 10:45
At least he was only OCing his firearm.



In Portland OR he could also OC his "gun"

B.Reid
08-15-2012, 11:16
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/af/Prototype_Pontiac_G8_LAPD_Squad_Car.jpg

I would be curious if anyone has any actual data or studies regarding actual changes in police work.

That's an old picture, they haven't made Pontiacs in years.

Bruce M
08-15-2012, 11:31
That's an old picture, they haven't made Pontiacs in years.
I think its a 2009, but that's ok maybe this is more current

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2037/2256515804_38ced354fb_b.jpg

RussP
08-15-2012, 11:48
At least he was only OCing his firearm.

In Portland OR he could also OC his "gun"Please folks, do not go down this road any further.

Thanks...

wjv
08-15-2012, 12:09
Printed/made up?

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If he had only been wearing one of these, the cops would never have bothered him!

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i303/bcvojak/RVNet/CCW_Jacket3.jpg

Cochese
08-15-2012, 12:21
One of the problems with todays Police is they have become Law Enforcement Officers they used to be Peace Officers. When was the last time you saw "To Serve and Protect" on the side of a Police car? When they dropped the tie and patten leather shoes for Tactical Gear and select fire weapons the whole mentality changed.

:rofl:

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TBO
08-15-2012, 13:10
Yeah, that post Showed a complete lack of knowledge of the history /development of modern Policing.

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