+p in .40 S&w? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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2hand
08-18-2012, 18:48
227189

Didn't think this was legit/safe?

dkf
08-18-2012, 18:58
SAAMI does not recognize .40 +P ammo. Same with 9mm +P+ and .380 +P. Basically a manufacturers way of saying that the ammo is loaded towards the upper end.

cowboy1964
08-18-2012, 18:59
It's like +P+ in 9mm. There is no SAAMI standard.

I wonder how many companies that make +P .40S&W actually pressure test their stuff.

ABNAK
08-18-2012, 19:03
Obviously, there is no SAAMI spec for ".40 +P". Any company doing so is winging it......technically.

That said, as a recent thread here has informed me, the .40 *can* be loaded to hotter than current commercial loadings. I would guess that these BB/DT/GA/Underwood loads attempt to do just that. :dunno: If I'm wrong please correct me.

2hand
08-18-2012, 19:08
Little freaky. There is a shotgun guy I've talked with that does ballistic testing for fps & psi for shotgun reloads. Kinda wish there was one for pistol/rifle ammo.

JW1178
08-18-2012, 19:14
Well, all +P is saying is a plus more powder/power. There is no actual "spec" so it really doesn't mean anything except you are probably getting some hot forty. The Ga Arms ".40+P+" is some hot stuff. I don't have a chronograph but judging by the flash, bang, and the way it kicks it has something going there. I know that all can be subjective but that little round has thump.

dkf
08-18-2012, 19:14
Little freaky. There is a shotgun guy I've talked with that does ballistic testing for fps & psi for shotgun reloads. Kinda wish there was one for pistol/rifle ammo.

They exist for metallic cartridges as well. Something the major manufacturers monitor.

Proof pressures are often sizeably higher than max rated pressures however most firearms can withstand the proof pressure. You can inch closer to proof pressure really but your dancing on the edge.

2hand
08-18-2012, 19:45
They exist for metallic cartridges as well. Something the major manufacturers monitor.

Proof pressures are often sizeably higher than max rated pressures however most firearms can withstand the proof pressure. You can inch closer to proof pressure really but your dancing on the edge.

"They" as in I can send 5 of my reloads and get accurate pressure and velocity data?

dkf
08-18-2012, 20:23
"They" as in I can send 5 of my reloads and get accurate pressure and velocity data?

I was referring to the manufacturers as I thought you were referin g to someone that manufacters reloaded ammo. I do not know of anyone who does pressure testing of loads. Would probably cost a decent chunk of coin.

bac1023
08-18-2012, 21:18
I don't shoot anything unless it recognized by SAAMI. Basically if they don't recognize it, neither do I.

40S&W is already a high pressure round.

2hand
08-18-2012, 21:23
I was referring to the manufacturers as I thought you were referin g to someone that manufacters reloaded ammo. I do not know of anyone who does pressure testing of loads. Would probably cost a decent chunk of coin.

Ahh, got me all excited. I wonder what the appeal would be for the reloading community to have a resource like this. Be able to send a load and get real pressure data back.


40S&W is already a high pressure round.


Kinda what I was thinking.

Yankee2718
08-18-2012, 21:26
I don't shoot anything unless it recognized by SAAMI. Basically if they don't recognize it, neither do I.

40S&W is already a high pressure round.

The 40 isn't loaded to any higher of a pressure than 9mm? Both are 35k psi. 9mm +P is spec'd higher than 40 to 38.5k psi.

fredj338
08-18-2012, 22:21
Well, all +P is saying is a plus more powder/power. There is no actual "spec" so it really doesn't mean anything except you are probably getting some hot forty. The Ga Arms ".40+P+" is some hot stuff. I don't have a chronograph but judging by the flash, bang, and the way it kicks it has something going there. I know that all can be subjective but that little round has thump.

Actually there is. The +P designation is for higher pressure. It's being used to describe higher vel, but it's not really correct terminology. FWIW, I can make flash & bang that is neither higher vel or higher pressure.:dunno: I am always dubious of such claims but it is a free market. I am sure they are manuf safe ammo, or they wouldn't be in bus long, but the +P moniker isn't really accurate.

NEOH212
08-19-2012, 02:12
I don't shoot anything unless it recognized by SAAMI. Basically if they don't recognize it, neither do I.

40S&W is already a high pressure round.

+1 :thumbsup:

This is very sound advice people! It just may save your guns life someday. :whistling:

4949shooter
08-19-2012, 05:12
Well, all +P is saying is a plus more powder/power. There is no actual "spec" so it really doesn't mean anything except you are probably getting some hot forty. The Ga Arms ".40+P+" is some hot stuff. I don't have a chronograph but judging by the flash, bang, and the way it kicks it has something going there. I know that all can be subjective but that little round has thump.

What are their velocity claims?

Joshhtn
08-19-2012, 05:47
I don't shoot anything unless it recognized by SAAMI. Basically if they don't recognize it, neither do I.

40S&W is already a high pressure round.

This.

ABNAK
08-19-2012, 07:05
What are their velocity claims?


1300fps from what I guess is a standard 4" barrel. In the case of Georgia Arms it's a 155gr Gold Dot.

4949shooter
08-19-2012, 12:36
1300fps from what I guess is a standard 4" barrel. In the case of Georgia Arms it's a 155gr Gold Dot.

Damn that's hot for a .40.

ABNAK
08-19-2012, 13:12
Damn that's hot for a .40.


Granted, I'm not a big Gold Dot fan, but I wasn't impressed with the expansion. Years ago I fired one into a real gelatin block and recently shot one into my pool. Both were through some type of simulated clothing first. You would think that with those screaming velocities even a Gold Dot would open up REAL wide (kinda like that Underwood GD 124gr +P+ 9mm I saw the video of), but they didn't. In the high .50 caliber range, like .57 or .58 IIRC. That's not even 1 1/2 times it's diameter.

gatorboy
08-19-2012, 13:34
I don't shoot anything unless it recognized by SAAMI. Basically if they don't recognize it, neither do I.

40S&W is already a high pressure round.

So is 9mm. I think you're logic is sound, I feel 9mm and 45ACP both benefit from a bit more velocity and energy when packed in +P cases. I don't go for +P+ even though there are +P+ cases. No 40 +P cases but the two manufacturers that advertise them will both tell you they are at 35K or under. It is a marketing designation for their hot ammo when they have the same bullets loaded at less velocity. It's really for their customers.

4949shooter
08-19-2012, 13:54
Granted, I'm not a big Gold Dot fan, but I wasn't impressed with the expansion. Years ago I fired one into a real gelatin block and recently shot one into my pool. Both were through some type of simulated clothing first. You would think that with those screaming velocities even a Gold Dot would open up REAL wide (kinda like that Underwood GD 124gr +P+ 9mm I saw the video of), but they didn't. In the high .50 caliber range, like .57 or .58 IIRC. That's not even 1 1/2 times it's diameter.

That's odd. Was there fragmentation?

ABNAK
08-19-2012, 18:31
That's odd. Was there fragmentation?

Not that I saw either time.

4949shooter
08-19-2012, 18:44
Not that I saw either time.

This makes me want to rethink the use of Gold dots in 10mm. I will be curious when TNOutdoors does his 10mm ballistic testing. Though I am thinking the Underwood 180 grain loads (even the slower Delta load) should expand.

JW1178
08-19-2012, 21:39
This makes me want to rethink the use of Gold dots in 10mm. I will be curious when TNOutdoors does his 10mm ballistic testing. Though I am thinking the Underwood 180 grain loads (even the slower Delta load) should expand.

Gold Dots hold up well to 10mm velocities. When I tested mine it wasn't through clothing of any kind but it expanded wide and held up. Can't find that bullet. Guess ill have to retest. This time through clothing.

ABNAK
08-20-2012, 06:33
This makes me want to rethink the use of Gold dots in 10mm. I will be curious when TNOutdoors does his 10mm ballistic testing. Though I am thinking the Underwood 180 grain loads (even the slower Delta load) should expand.


Maybe it's just the 155gr Gold Dot bullet, I dunno. I think the cavity is shallower on the 155gr in anticipation of higher velocity. :dunno:

I've seen a TNoutdoors9 test of the 165gr Gold Dot and it opened up rather nicely for a GD.

avenues165
08-20-2012, 20:48
I don't shoot anything unless it recognized by SAAMI. Basically if they don't recognize it, neither do I.

40S&W is already a high pressure round.

I also agree with this.

If I wanted to shoot .40 +p I would make sure I had a fully supported barrel.

I don't know, the .40 is one I just don't need going any faster. When I decide to make it go faster I'll get a G20.

Two thumbs up for the underrated .40 s&w, just as it is.:smoking:

Glockbuster
08-20-2012, 22:27
Gold dots do just fine. Do not make decisions based on backyard testing in water.

ABNAK
08-21-2012, 06:56
Gold dots do just fine. Do not make decisions based on backyard testing in water.

Well of the two Georgia Arms 155gr Gold Dots I fired, one was into ballistic gelatin. Basically the same results for both. Could barely see the "gold dot" after firing; it wasn't exposed, you had to look down into a tiny hole to see gold at the bottom of it. Again, I think it was the design of that particular GD loading with a shallower cup than, for instance, the 165gr one. These GA rounds are from the late 90's; don't know if Speer has changed the 155gr design since then or not.

Also, as far as water is concerned, isn't it generally accepted that it enhances expansion? i.e. if it didn't do well in H2O then it likely wouldn't do well in gel.

I know where you're going with this. It's not a Gold Dot bashing thread. I stated what I've personally seen twice with the same particular Gold Dot bullet pushed to what some would say are unsafe pressures and the corresponding obscene velocities. I was underwhelmed both times. Having said that, TNoutdoors video of the 165gr .40 and 124gr +P+ 9mm were indeed impressive. YMMV.

Glockbuster
08-21-2012, 07:33
Well of the two Georgia Arms 155gr Gold Dots I fired, one was into ballistic gelatin. Basically the same results for both. Could barely see the "gold dot" after firing; it wasn't exposed, you had to look down into a tiny hole to see gold at the bottom of it. Again, I think it was the design of that particular GD loading with a shallower cup than, for instance, the 165gr one. These GA rounds are from the late 90's; don't know if Speer has changed the 155gr design since then or not.

Also, as far as water is concerned, isn't it generally accepted that it enhances expansion? i.e. if it didn't do well in H2O then it likely wouldn't do well in gel.

I know where you're going with this. It's not a Gold Dot bashing thread. I stated what I've personally seen twice with the same particular Gold Dot bullet pushed to what some would say are unsafe pressures and the corresponding obscene velocities. I was underwhelmed both times. Having said that, TNoutdoors video of the 165gr .40 and 124gr +P+ 9mm were indeed impressive. YMMV.

Both the 155 and 165 Gold Dot bullets have very similar hollow points. I am going to take the time to post a pic for you later on. I would take tnoutdoors video test results in gel as the standard for how Gold Dots perform. Some bullets actually perform sub par when driven at higher velocities than they were designed for. That is the reason why you see the 357 sig bullet with a wider and shallower hollow point than its 124 grain sibling--velocity issues.

Take a worthwhile look at this link

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/DocGKRData/40_155grDT_155gr165grGDHP.htm

As you can see, if expansion is what turns you on, there are other choices before Gold Dot. I on the other hand like the way the bullet stays close together for good penetration in all sorts of situations.

I know it is not a Gold Dot bashing thread but your posts in this thread seem to mislead other posters and in an open discussion such as this one I will rebutt what I think is wrong.

barth
08-21-2012, 09:45
I don't shoot anything unless it recognized by SAAMI. Basically if they don't recognize it, neither do I.

40S&W is already a high pressure round.

+1
Non standardize over-pressure rounds sound like bad business to me.
Why abuse my gun and risk damage and personal injury?

SAAMI Speer 155 gr GDHP is plenty hot.
Get a 10mm if you want to turn up the power.

ABNAK
08-21-2012, 13:41
I know it is not a Gold Dot bashing thread but your posts in this thread seem to mislead other posters and in an open discussion such as this one I will rebutt what I think is wrong.


Hey, feel free to rebutt. No problem with that at all.

Since the thread was specifically about "+P .40" and I happen to have exactly that, I threw my observations out there. I would've thought that if velocities were beyond the design you'd REALLY open them up, maybe even to the point of fragmenting. Didn't turn out that way. In fact, it kinda looked like (and had about the same diameter) as the 357Sig Gold Dot test TNoutdoors posted. Not a downright spreading or flailed open appearance like the 180gr and 165gr GD's he tested but instead a "mashed" open look where you have to look down into it to see the gold dot after expansion. Maybe another way to put it is instead of being pushed wide open it kind of "melts" open in more of a mound.

ETA---Interesting link. Same weapon used. Same bullets but one faster than the other. Faster one expands less after denim than the slower one. Hmmmm.......perhaps the extreme velocity leads to that but I don't understand why it would. I would think that the results would be the opposite. Any physics folks out there care to comment? I'm perplexed.

RYT 2BER
08-21-2012, 19:32
SAAMI Speer 155 gr GDHP is plenty hot.
Get a 10mm if you want to turn up the power.

wouldn't hot 10mm be the same as hot .40? (when I say the same I mean as far as pushing pressure limits)

:dunno:

Glockbuster
08-21-2012, 21:51
Hey, feel free to rebutt. No problem with that at all.

ETA---Interesting link. Same weapon used. Same bullets but one faster than the other. Faster one expands less after denim than the slower one. Hmmmm.......perhaps the extreme velocity leads to that but I don't understand why it would. I would think that the results would be the opposite. Any physics folks out there care to comment? I'm perplexed.

As you can see more vel does not equate to more expansion. Major ammo manufacturers have tailored their rounds for optimal performance.

ABNAK
08-21-2012, 22:54
As you can see more vel does not equate to more expansion. Major ammo manufacturers have tailored their rounds for optimal performance.

I hand-loaded 90gr Gold Dots in 9mm back in the 90's. Had them going ~ 1300fps. They looked like they turned inside out and even threw a few fragments......a far cry from what the 155gr ended up looking like at extreme velocities. Even though they are the same brand of bullet it must have a unique or specific HP design that directs expansion differently. Dunno. :dunno:

SDGlock23
08-22-2012, 08:58
I'm not sure whether it's actually over pressure (35K PSI) or just a marketing ploy to push their hotter .40's, maybe as a way to classify it as a step above regular .40.

The .40 is based off the 10mm yet why is the 10mm rated at 37.5K PSI and the .40 at 35K PSI? It's even been said the .40 case is stronger than the 10mm case due to it's use of a SP primer instead of a LP. Same with 357 Sig, it's rated at 40K PSI so why couldn't the .40 or 10mm be rated that high when they're more or less identical?

Then there is the aspect of being able to load the .40 faster without going over the 35K PSI limit, which could be why any such rounds are marketed as such. I will use a 165gr JHP here as an example. Factory .40's claim about 1150 fps. Put the right powder in there and it's over 1300 fps and not over pressure. One could sell that as a "+P" load although it wouldn't actually be over pressure.

It's been pointed out before, but the .40 has the same PSI rating as a standard 9mm. It's higher pressure than the .45, but less than the 9mm +P/+P+, 10mm and 357 Sig. So yes it's high pressure compared to the .45 (or 38 or 380), but less so than other popular offerings.

Glockbuster
08-22-2012, 10:38
I hand-loaded 90gr Gold Dots in 9mm back in the 90's. Had them going ~ 1300fps. They looked like they turned inside out and even threw a few fragments......a far cry from what the 155gr ended up looking like at extreme velocities. Even though they are the same brand of bullet it must have a unique or specific HP design that directs expansion differently. Dunno. :dunno:

You keep referencing back to the 90īs in bullet tests --the 90 gr. 9 mm, the 155 gr. gold dot in another post. Not sure if you are well served by those tests as more modern bullet design yields vastly different results.

BTW, 1300 fps in 90 gr. is not that smokin fast for 9 mm., Now if it were a 115 gr.....

ABNAK
08-22-2012, 14:58
You keep referencing back to the 90īs in bullet tests --the 90 gr. 9 mm, the 155 gr. gold dot in another post. Not sure if you are well served by those tests as more modern bullet design yields vastly different results.

BTW, 1300 fps in 90 gr. is not that smokin fast for 9 mm., Now if it were a 115 gr.....

Has Gold Dot tweaked their design in recent years? Serious question. If so then *perhaps* my referencing 90's era loads is off. If not then I'll stand by my statements.

I'm well aware that 1300fps isn't much for a 90gr in 9mm. You should be able to get 1500 all day. I was more timid in reloading in those days (don't do it at all now though). However, 1300fps for the 90gr GD designed for .380 is a helluva jump.....what, maybe 400+fps over a normal .380 loading? I would expect to see some very dynamic results pushing a bullet to ~ 150% of it's design limits, and I certainly did.

Again, if Speer has altered the design more recently I'd give it a second look. Winchester did so with the Ranger line (and apparently not for the better). However, as I've mentioned before the Short Barrel GD in .40, which has a HUGE cavity, has expansion in the high .50's in both water (yes, I know your take on that but it should exaggerate expansion) and meat. Pretty consistent actually, in fact almost identical as I have them in front of me to type this edit. My personal preference is for 1.5x original diameter expansion or preferably more. That means, for me mind you, it needs to be .60"+ for a .40 load. Even my prefered HST brand fell short in it's 155gr loading. Now the 180gr HST.......

Glockbuster
08-22-2012, 15:24
When clothing is involved, or glass, or other tough media, it is really hard to get more than .60" or the 1.5x you are talking out of .40" GD. Curiously the 9 mm bullets for 9 mm and 357 sig donīt lag far behind. But it is a real nice expansion.
Granted that the HST and ranger T excel in expansion, but there must be a give and a get. I see another thread going on here in CC with some posters downplaying 147 gr. in 9 mm., well that is the beauty weight for the HST in that caliber isnīt it ?

ABNAK
08-22-2012, 19:30
When clothing is involved, or glass, or other tough media, it is really hard to get more than .60" or the 1.5x you are talking out of .40" GD. Curiously the 9 mm bullets for 9 mm and 357 sig donīt lag far behind. But it is a real nice expansion.
Granted that the HST and ranger T excel in expansion, but there must be a give and a get. I see another thread going on here in CC with some posters downplaying 147 gr. in 9 mm., well that is the beauty weight for the HST in that caliber isnīt it ?

Absolutely. I've got 124gr +P, 147gr +P, 155gr, 165gr, and 180gr HST ammo. What the "secret" (if you will) is is that the skivves on the bullet jacket are cut all the way down to the case mouth on the heavy loads for each caliber. So, while the lighter ones DO go a good deal faster the heavier ones have more "petal" length to peel outward from the core. You end up with a lighter recoiling heavy load that actually has more expansion, and a snappy lighter round that has more penetration. Kinda turns things around backwards, doesn't it?

Yeah, Gold Dots might do better with hard barriers but NOTHING expands as well after clothing as opposed to bare gel. That's up to and including HST. Texas DPS had a shooting involving a trucker who was shot through the semi's door with a 357Sig Gold Dot and took him out. For LEO's Gold Dot is popular for that type of thing, and deservedly so. Not sure what HST would've done through a semi door. :dunno:

JW1178
08-22-2012, 19:45
About a semi's door, it's actually not as tough as a passenger car's door. Seriously, the whole cab is made of fiber glass and aluminum.

As far as the +P claims, it's pretty clear here it's just advertising.

gatorboy
08-23-2012, 21:17
I hand-loaded 90gr Gold Dots in 9mm back in the 90's. Had them going ~ 1300fps. They looked like they turned inside out and even threw a few fragments......a far cry from what the 155gr ended up looking like at extreme velocities. Even though they are the same brand of bullet it must have a unique or specific HP design that directs expansion differently. Dunno. :dunno:

You keep referencing back to the 90īs in bullet tests --the 90 gr. 9 mm, the 155 gr. gold dot in another post. Not sure if you are well served by those tests as more modern bullet design yields vastly different results.

BTW, 1300 fps in 90 gr. is not that smokin fast for 9 mm., Now if it were a 115 gr.....

In terms of Sectional Density, a 150 gr. .401is equal to a 115 gr. .355. The .40 is faster for SD and consequently holds up better. A good 155-180 .40 is very hard to beat - even by 10mm when pistol width, weight and capacity is considered for carry. I'll take my 10's over my 40's any day when plinking or hunting. If I have to carry it 15-20 hrs./day - give me a 40.

Remington 870
08-24-2012, 12:49
can anyone tell me if the chamber support problems in the gen 2 and earlier guns has been fixed with the gen 3 and newer 40 cal guns?

SDGlock23
08-24-2012, 12:59
Yes better support for sure.

CATATOMIC
08-24-2012, 14:14
Why would you want or need a +p in 40 ???

jbglock
08-24-2012, 17:51
Personally I wouldn't consider it safe unless I saw some pressure testing. I don't go by what others say they are doing in their guns either. It's not like if I follow their advice they are going to replace my gun if I cause excessive wear or damage it.

dkf
08-24-2012, 18:32
can anyone tell me if the chamber support problems in the gen 2 and earlier guns has been fixed with the gen 3 and newer 40 cal guns?

Yes the support is better.

http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm285/SDV10/?action=view&current=G23BarrelComparo-1.jpg