Why The Huge Purchase of Ammo by the Feds? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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The Viking
08-19-2012, 12:40
http://www.prisonplanet.com/dhs-to-purchase-another-750-million-rounds-of-ammo.html

countrygun
08-19-2012, 13:08
Been discussed in many threads lately.

Kingarthurhk
08-19-2012, 13:09
Because sling shots are fairly ineffective.

JBnTX
08-19-2012, 14:36
Maybe they're getting ready?
Circling the wagons so to speak.

countrygun
08-19-2012, 14:44
Maybe they're getting ready?
Circling the wagons so to speak.


If there were something afoot ammo could be acquired without such an overt public manner.

Government agencies have first chance at military surplus and given our current situation and the variety of weapons we use it would be easy to "overorder" on the military tab and then "surplus it off".

Individual offices could purchase on office POs. The reason bulk purchases are made is for budget concerns I can't imagine some "evil plot" starting out with, "let's get the best deal on ammo":upeyes:

The Viking
08-19-2012, 16:16
Try reading the amount of ammo per officer. I am not a conspiracy theorist; but something is afoot. In its most sinister form I will outline the possibility of backdoor gun control:
(1) Order a huge amount of ammunition tying up production and making ammo scarce on the civilian market. The Feds have a lot of money so this is not hard to do.
(2) Ban the import of ammo with Executive Order like Bush Sr did to AKs during his term with an Executive Order. Drying up even more ammo for commercial use. We have a President who very apparently accomplishes his goals ( "we can't wait") with Executive Orders ( he has turned immigration on its head by implementing the dream act with an executive order). We also have a gutless congress.
(3 ) Get the press to start beating the drums about having a safer society, how this is going to be for the greater good, and that we are the last industrial nation to allow easy access to firearms ( they will be more than glad to brainwash people).
All too easy.
Now start counting how many rounds this is for each HS police officer and start wondering.

Deployment Solu
08-19-2012, 16:53
Ban Politicians!! It's for the children!!!!

Kingarthurhk
08-19-2012, 18:06
Try reading the amount of ammo per officer. I am not a conspiracy theorist; but something is afoot. In its most sinister form I will outline the possibility of backdoor gun control:
(1) Order a huge amount of ammunition tying up production and making ammo scarce on the civilian market. The Feds have a lot of money so this is not hard to do.
(2) Ban the import of ammo with Executive Order like Bush Sr did to AKs during his term with an Executive Order. Drying up even more ammo for commercial use. We have a President who very apparently accomplishes his goals ( "we can't wait") with Executive Orders ( he has turned immigration on its head by implementing the dream act with an executive order). We also have a gutless congress.
(3 ) Get the press to start beating the drums about having a safer society, how this is going to be for the greater good, and that we are the last industrial nation to allow easy access to firearms ( they will be more than glad to brainwash people).
All too easy.
Now start counting how many rounds this is for each HS police officer and start wondering.

And all in your imagination.

The Machinist
08-19-2012, 18:08
And all in your imagination.
Sure, because the US government never kills its own citizens. :whistling:

JBnTX
08-19-2012, 18:14
Sure, because the US government never kills its own citizens. :whistling:


Six months ago I would have disagreed with you, but lately I've come to realize that you just might be right.

..

Cavalry Doc
08-19-2012, 18:27
Sure, because the US government never kills its own citizens. :whistling:

Have you paid close attention to the ones being killed? What made them the target? Be honest about it, most deserved it.


When they don't, I'll be right there protesting with you.


With all these purchases being announced, might be a good time to stock up before prices go up.

countrygun
08-19-2012, 18:34
Have you paid close attention to the ones being killed? What made them the target? Be honest about it, most deserved it.


When they don't, I'll be right there protesting with you.


With all these purchases being announced, might be a good time to stock up before prices go up.


hey, maybe some folks in the Govt. are awake and remember what happened to availability and prices last election cycle.

Maybe they are on their toes and doing a good job.




















It could happen.

Cavalry Doc
08-19-2012, 18:41
hey, maybe some folks in the Govt. are awake and remember what happened to availability and prices last election cycle.

Maybe they are on their toes and doing a good job.




















It could happen.

I know I've been making purchases of primers, powder, bullets and complete cartridges for quite some time now, especially those that were very hard to find the last time it was announced that Barry was the Dem candidate.

PawDog
08-19-2012, 19:26
Sure, because the US government never kills its own citizens. :whistling:

http://seemslegit.com/_images/aa06497ab34b2a071f59c6af75114c94/1849%20-%20balloons%20car%20missiles%20paranoia%20truck%20vehicles%20weapons.jpg

ModGlock17
08-19-2012, 19:41
Them FAST and FURIOUS guns

need

AMMO !

Why are you so surprised ???

Kingarthurhk
08-19-2012, 20:50
Sure, because the US government never kills its own citizens. :whistling:

Of course not, that's what the sainted military is for.:whistling:

The Machinist
08-19-2012, 21:13
http://seemslegit.com/_images/aa06497ab34b2a071f59c6af75114c94/1849%20-%20balloons%20car%20missiles%20paranoia%20truck%20vehicles%20weapons.jpg

Vicki Weaver, shortly before being murdered by agents of the state.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/65/Vickisurveil.JPG/800px-Vickisurveil.JPG

The Viking
08-19-2012, 21:33
And all in your imagination.

Then explain those huge orders of ammo.

The Viking
08-19-2012, 21:37
Some people here need to read Elie Wiesel's book " Night." It won the Nobel Prize.

The Viking
08-19-2012, 21:38
hey, maybe some folks in the Govt. are awake and remember what happened to availability and prices last election cycle.

Maybe they are on their toes and doing a good job.




















It could happen.

Maybe there is a tooth fairy.

vikingsoftpaw
08-19-2012, 22:36
Why does anyone go to work? To get a paycheck is the most likely answer.

Helicopter Brennake is arranging new round of quantitative easing.

Ask a Greek. Ask someone from Chile or Argentina what happened in those countries when their currencies melted down. Those that pull on the levers of power lose control of society.

1.1 Billion round of ammo in the hands of Gov't types will guarantee the social control necessary to insure those that rely on sucking the Gov'ttit still get theirs.

You and me, not so much. We risk a bullet in the head if we question 'our place'.

countrygun
08-19-2012, 22:51
I sure hope they are ready and the people never find out where all the ammo is stored. I have been hearing this same warning when the FY budget comes out for about ten years now, I wonder under which administration it's going to happen?

Blast
08-19-2012, 23:17
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-XO9ucF6vS48/UBdJSgDOEDI/AAAAAAAADBQ/H7Hcq_LpaFQ/s1600/insect_spy_drone.jpg

http://www-bgr-com.vimg.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/police-drone-e1345223814206.jpg

http://mysteryoftheinquity.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/172-0824031144-greetings-from-camp-fema1.jpg



http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-scared002.gif

Kingarthurhk
08-20-2012, 05:34
Then explain those huge orders of ammo.

Oh, lets see. As far as the LEO entities, of which there are many, who have to justify an end of the year budget, and qualify 4 times a year, plus duty carry ammo, plus practice ammo, plus reserves in case of a shortage in manufacturing, I think you might have a fair idea.

Now, to our military. They are still fighting in the Afghan Theater and that requires lots of rounds for lots of people, with lots of rounds going down range, plus supply reserves, and they have weapons qualifications for all those soldiers as well.

All that said, no one is comming to get you and thow all those bullets at you.

Sorry, if my logic is impairing your need for a conspiracy all the time.

Bren
08-20-2012, 05:41
I'm hoping they're going to raid the home of whoever runs Prisonplanet.com and find out who all reads that POS site, then hunt them down and summarily execute them on the street.

But the truth is, the feds have literally millions of military and law enforcement personnel who shoot billions of round of ammo every year. Sometimes they have to buy some. You really didn't think of that?

I mean, this article is about Homeland Security - the agency that includes most of federal law enforcement - how hard would that be for even a retard like Paul Joseph Watson to figure out.

including 357 mag rounds that are able to penetrate walls.

:rofl::rofl:




http://www.geekologie.com/2007/12/05/alien-hats.jpg

Bren
08-20-2012, 05:49
Sure, because the US government never kills its own citizens. :whistling:

No, because he based it on a stupid article by someone who doesn't know enough about ammo to know different guns use different calibers and an article that shows no factual basis for its nutty conclusions. A perfectly ordinary amount of ammunition order by the feds law enforcement training center is not a basis for a rational person to start wildly speculating about government conspiracies. The article is stupid, even for its source, and for people who allegedly own guns to take it seriously is ridiculous.

Kingarthurhk
08-20-2012, 05:49
.357 sig can go through walls? Say it isn't so. I can't think of very few handgun or any other round that won't pierce dry wall, which is essentially fancy cardboard.

PawDog
08-20-2012, 06:22
Then explain those huge orders of ammo.

No need for paranoia or tin foil, I posted this on another thread on this same issue:

I used to oversee the budget for approximately 500 staff for annual firearms re-qualification, and annually approved the purchase of 60,000 rounds of 9mm, 60,000 rounds of 5.56, and 30,000 rounds of 12 gauge rounds, solely for training purposes. It took around six to eight weeks in rotation to re-qualify all staff.

This didn't include purchases for special ops teams who trained every other month and quarterly, and didn't include ammo purchases for duty carry either.

Given this, the purchase of 'huge" amounts of ammo isn't an unexpected purchase for an entire government agency. Also, as the federal fiscal year ends September 30th each year, we had to have all year-end funds or the current fiscal year spent before September 1st every year, or lose the equal funding for the upcoming fiscal year.

The Viking
08-20-2012, 06:23
Oh, lets see. As far as the LEO entities, of which there are many, who have to justify an end of the year budget, and qualify 4 times a year, plus duty carry ammo, plus practice ammo, plus reserves in case of a shortage in manufacturing, I think you might have a fair idea.

Now, to our military. They are still fighting in the Afghan Theater and that requires lots of rounds for lots of people, with lots of rounds going down range, plus supply reserves, and they have weapons qualifications for all those soldiers as well.

All that said, no one is comming to get you and thow all those bullets at you.

Sorry, if my logic is impairing your need for a conspiracy all the time.


Quit being lazy and giving the lazy explanations without anything to back you up. Try adding up just how many LEO officers there are in DHS and dividing that into the number of rounds ordered and get a real shock. Saying there are many says absolutely nothing. The sheer number in the order does not account for all your explanations.
Dept of Defense orders their own ammo. They do not order it through DHS and they certainly have no use for all that 40 cal ammo. Try looking and see how much they ordered.
A friend of mind crunched all these numbers for me when I also expressed doubt. He convinced me something was afoot.
You can do some real research or stick your head back in the sand.

The Viking
08-20-2012, 06:26
No need for paranoia or tin foil, I posted this on another thread on this same issue:

I used to oversee the budget for approximately 500 staff for annual firearms re-qualification, and annually approved the purchase of 60,000 rounds of 9mm, 60,000 rounds of 5.56, and 30,000 rounds of 12 gauge rounds, solely for training purposes. It took around six to eight weeks in rotation to re-qualify all staff.

This didn't include purchases for special ops teams who trained every other month and quarterly, and didn't include ammo purchases for duty carry either.

Given this, the purchase of 'huge" amounts of ammo isn't an unexpected purchase for an entire government agency. Also, as the federal fiscal year ends September 30th each year, we had to have all year-end funds or the current fiscal year spent before September 1st every year, or lose the equal funding for the upcoming fiscal year.

We are not talking about 60,000 rounds of ammo. We are talking about 450 million rounds of ammo plus another 750 million rounds of ammo. How many rounds is that per LEO for DHS?

The Viking
08-20-2012, 07:50
No, because he based it on a stupid article by someone who doesn't know enough about ammo to know different guns use different calibers and an article that shows no factual basis for its nutty conclusions. A perfectly ordinary amount of ammunition order by the feds law enforcement training center is not a basis for a rational person to start wildly speculating about government conspiracies. The article is stupid, even for its source, and for people who allegedly own guns to take it seriously is ridiculous.

I hate to disabuse you of your complacency; but I have a friend who checked the ATK website and saw the press release for the order of ammo. I will leave you to figure out who ATK is.
No go look up and see how many LEO's DHS has and divide that by the millions of rounds they are buying. Next check out how many rounds DOD ordered during the Iraqi war.
Do you always post without research?

The Viking
08-20-2012, 07:57
I'm hoping they're going to raid the home of whoever runs Prisonplanet.com and find out who all reads that POS site, then hunt them down and summarily execute them on the street.

But the truth is, the feds have literally millions of military and law enforcement personnel who shoot billions of round of ammo every year. Sometimes they have to buy some. You really didn't think of that?

I mean, this article is about Homeland Security - the agency that includes most of federal law enforcement - how hard would that be for even a retard like Paul Joseph Watson to figure out.



:rofl::rofl:




http://www.geekologie.com/2007/12/05/alien-hats.jpg


Apparently, you have no idea of how many LEOs DHS has, or the military for that matter, do you. The military orders its own ammo and so does DHS. Go stick your head back in the sand.

Sam Spade
08-20-2012, 12:55
So why don't you tell us, then?

FFR Spyder GT
08-20-2012, 13:23
If there were something afoot ammo could be acquired without such an overt public manner.

Government agencies have first chance at military surplus and given our current situation and the variety of weapons we use it would be easy to "overorder" on the military tab and then "surplus it off".

Individual offices could purchase on office POs. The reason bulk purchases are made is for budget concerns I can't imagine some "evil plot" starting out with, "let's get the best deal on ammo":upeyes:

+1!

Good post countrygun. If Obama and the Feds were up to something it would have been done on the low-low and we would have never known about it until later. Kinda like the Iran-Contra Arms Scandal.

countrygun
08-20-2012, 13:37
Apparently, you have no idea of how many LEOs DHS has, or the military for that matter, do you. The military orders its own ammo and so does DHS. Go stick your head back in the sand.


The military surplusses off ammo and equipment to other government agencies all the time, It even comes down to local Law Enforcement agencies. Anybody with LE experience can tell you that. Besides that, if something were "up" what do you think would prevent Military or other agencies ammo from being distributed where "needed", do you think they would be afraid of "breaking the rules"?

Stick to things you know more about, like Area 51.

countrygun
08-20-2012, 13:39
+1!

Good post countrygun. If Obama and the Feds were up to something it would have been done on the low-low and we would have never known about it until later. Kinda like the Iran-Contra Arms Scandal.

Or "Fast and Furious"?

C'mon folks, if two people, as diameterically opposed as Spyder and myself can agree, how far out there do you have to be?

cowboy1964
08-20-2012, 14:29
Which HST are they buying, 155, 165, or 180?

Kingarthurhk
08-20-2012, 16:51
Quit being lazy and giving the lazy explanations without anything to back you up. Try adding up just how many LEO officers there are in DHS and dividing that into the number of rounds ordered and get a real shock. Saying there are many says absolutely nothing. The sheer number in the order does not account for all your explanations.
Dept of Defense orders their own ammo. They do not order it through DHS and they certainly have no use for all that 40 cal ammo. Try looking and see how much they ordered.
A friend of mind crunched all these numbers for me when I also expressed doubt. He convinced me something was afoot.
You can do some real research or stick your head back in the sand.

LMAO, if you only knew. Also, you are way unstable too share anything of significance with.

The Machinist
08-20-2012, 16:57
Or "Fast and Furious"?

C'mon folks, if two people, as diameterically opposed as Spyder and myself can agree, how far out there do you have to be?
You and Spyder think much more alike than you'll admit. You don't see eye to eye on a no more than a handful of fringe issues. As for the rest, I doubt anyone could tell the two of you apart.

Bren
08-20-2012, 17:29
I hate to disabuse you of your complacency; but I have a friend who checked the ATK website and saw the press release for the order of ammo. I will leave you to figure out who ATK is.
No go look up and see how many LEO's DHS has and divide that by the millions of rounds they are buying. Next check out how many rounds DOD ordered during the Iraqi war.
Do you always post without research?

It's your thread, feel free to make your point with actual evidence. If you have numbers that make this mean something, you should have posted them in the first post.

Feel free to tell me how few LE they have. EVEN IF they aren't sharing the ammo purchase with other agencies, Homeland Security is a cabinet-level agency that includes:

United States Citizenship and Immigration Services
U.S. Customs and Border Protection
U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement
Transportation Security Administration
United States Coast Guard
United States Secret Service
Federal Emergency Management Agency
Domestic Nuclear Detection Office
Federal Law Enforcement Training Center
National Protection and Programs Directorate
Federal Protective Service
National Communications System
Directorate for Science and Technology
Directorate for Management
Office of Intelligence and Analysis
National Cyber Security Center

And a few others

I say that, because it would be typical of the tinfoil hatters to try and count only those people working directly for Homeland Security and forget that the whole agency probably has almost as many people carrying guns as the Marine Corps.

GAFinch
08-20-2012, 17:33
While it's good practice to keep an eye on the government, why would they try to make ammo unavailable by buying a caliber that almost no one outside of federal agencies actually uses? If they were planning a tyrannical coup, why would they order handgun ammo instead of 5.56?

The Viking
08-20-2012, 19:23
It's your thread, feel free to make your point with actual evidence. If you have numbers that make this mean something, you should have posted them in the first post.

Feel free to tell me how few LE they have. EVEN IF they aren't sharing the ammo purchase with other agencies, Homeland Security is a cabinet-level agency that includes:

United States Citizenship and Immigration Services
U.S. Customs and Border Protection
U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement
Transportation Security Administration
United States Coast Guard
United States Secret Service
Federal Emergency Management Agency
Domestic Nuclear Detection Office
Federal Law Enforcement Training Center
National Protection and Programs Directorate
Federal Protective Service
National Communications System
Directorate for Science and Technology
Directorate for Management
Office of Intelligence and Analysis
National Cyber Security Center

And a few others

I say that, because it would be typical of the tinfoil hatters to try and count only those people working directly for Homeland Security and forget that the whole agency probably has almost as many people carrying guns as the Marine Corps.

That is funny. As many as the Marine Corps you say. You really dont have a clue as too how many the Marine Corps has either do you. Why don't you look that up.
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/Fedlaw.pdf
Gee that was hard - not figure we hired so more after 9=11 so let's double that number and add 10,000. That would make 150,000 Federal LEOs. Let's figure that 150,000 of them are going to fire 2,000 rounds. Wow they just fired 300 million rounds that leaves some 900 million rounds left over for them. I wonder what they will do with those. Well first off maybe we better figure out how many firing positions we will need on a range for 150,000 LEOs to fire 2,000 rounds apiece. Guess what we dont have anywhere near enough.
Well go look at how many rounds the US Army ordered from 2002 to 2007. Remember we had troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. 5.56, 9mm, 50 cal rounds - 9.2 billion rounds ordered to fight two wars. Now who is HS fighting with 1.5 billion rounds?
You see I had all these doubts about this article too. However, I have a good friend, who is a nuclear and chemical engineer, and one hell of a computer whiz and number cruncher. When he started giving me the facts the order for this ammo no longer made any sense.
Crunch the numbers for yourself. Problem is they are so large most people do not have any concept of them.
I wish I could find a benign explanation for this ammo order. But so for I have been given statements without research, information or thought in this thread. So I rather doubt I am going to find any real information here.
I am concluding that either people do not want to know or they are too lazy to do the research.

The Viking
08-20-2012, 19:33
It's your thread, feel free to make your point with actual evidence. If you have numbers that make this mean something, you should have posted them in the first post.

Feel free to tell me how few LE they have. EVEN IF they aren't sharing the ammo purchase with other agencies, Homeland Security is a cabinet-level agency that includes:

United States Citizenship and Immigration Services
U.S. Customs and Border Protection
U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement
Transportation Security Administration
United States Coast Guard
United States Secret Service
Federal Emergency Management Agency
Domestic Nuclear Detection Office
Federal Law Enforcement Training Center
National Protection and Programs Directorate
Federal Protective Service
National Communications System
Directorate for Science and Technology
Directorate for Management
Office of Intelligence and Analysis
National Cyber Security Center

And a few others

I say that, because it would be typical of the tinfoil hatters to try and count only those people working directly for Homeland Security and forget that the whole agency probably has almost as many people carrying guns as the Marine Corps.

The Marine Corps has 243,000 personnel as of 2010.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Marine_Corps
The whole United States has an estimated 800,000 LEOs state, county, and metro. Look it up.
Is your hatband getting tight?

The Viking
08-20-2012, 19:34
While it's good practice to keep an eye on the government, why would they try to make ammo unavailable by buying a caliber that almost no one outside of federal agencies actually uses? If they were planning a tyrannical coup, why would they order handgun ammo instead of 5.56?

Caliber would not matter if your goal was tie up manufacturing resources and materiel. Second order was for mixed calibers, if I remember correctly.

The Viking
08-20-2012, 19:46
LMAO, if you only knew. Also, you are way unstable too share anything of significance with.

Uh huh I am so unstable I can even give you a number and let you double it for kicks:
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/Fedlaw.pdf
Now even add 10,000 more and get 150,000. Now divide that number into the ammo order and tell me what you get. Like I already said - from 2002 to 2007 the army ordered 9.2 billion rounds of 5.56, 9mm and 50 cal for troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. So why does HS need 1.5 billion rounds?
BTW there are and estimated 800,000 state, county, and metro LEOs in the US.
Since you have nothing to share, good thing I am so unstable.

The Viking
08-20-2012, 19:51
The military surplusses off ammo and equipment to other government agencies all the time, It even comes down to local Law Enforcement agencies. Anybody with LE experience can tell you that. Besides that, if something were "up" what do you think would prevent Military or other agencies ammo from being distributed where "needed", do you think they would be afraid of "breaking the rules"?

Stick to things you know more about, like Area 51.

One thing is obvious you know very little of what is actually happening and have no information to impart other than what you think is happening. So tell me how much ammo does the military surplus off? You really have no idea do you.
Who is exactly is " anybody" cause most of my friends are ex military like me; and I have several who are ex law enforcement.

Kingarthurhk
08-20-2012, 19:52
The Marine Corps has 243,000 personnel as of 2010.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Marine_Corps
The whole United States has an estimated 800,000 LEOs state, county, and metro. Look it up.
Is your hatband getting tight?

If your tinfoil hat getting your scalp sweaty? There is paranoia, there is healthy paranoia, and then there is you.

The Viking
08-20-2012, 19:56
+1!

Good post countrygun. If Obama and the Feds were up to something it would have been done on the low-low and we would have never known about it until later. Kinda like the Iran-Contra Arms Scandal.

Do you really think this Imperial President feels a need to hide what he is doing. He has stood immigration on its head with an executive order, circumvented congress, and implemented much of the dream act. His last order was to allow young illegal immigrants to stay in the US. He has made citizenship a joke. And in all of this he is encouraged by the press, who laud him as an active president; and think he is better than the second coming as he " hovers" over them.
Wakey wakey.

Kingarthurhk
08-20-2012, 20:03
They're Coming to Take Me Away Hahaaa! - YouTube

MedicOni
08-20-2012, 20:03
Uh huh I am so unstable I can even give you a number and let you double it for kicks:
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/Fedlaw.pdf
Now even add 10,000 more and get 150,000. Now divide that number into the ammo order and tell me what you get. Like I already said - from 2002 to 2007 the army ordered 9.2 billion rounds of 5.56, 9mm and 50 cal for troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. So why does HS need 1.5 billion rounds?
BTW there are and estimated 800,000 state, county, and metro LEOs in the US.
Since you have nothing to share, good thing I am so unstable.

Is that counting the fact that the USCG sidearm, service-wide, is the Sig 229R-DAK? Which is a .40? There's probably close to 50k USCG personnel.

countrygun
08-20-2012, 20:30
One thing is obvious you know very little of what is actually happening and have no information to impart other than what you think is happening. So tell me how much ammo does the military surplus off? You really have no idea do you.
Who is exactly is " anybody" cause most of my friends are ex military like me; and I have several who are ex law enforcement.


It doesn't seem as though you have brought the subject up with them however. Grunts are rarely in on the high-level doings but LEOs receive it. Talk to them



You know, you didn't even deserve that. Your tinfoil is so tightly wrapped you have now decided that the fact that it ISN'T hidden is the PROOF of a conspiracy.

If you want to worry about something, worry about the number of pens the Goverment orders, they are the most dangerous tools in the hands of government minions.

The Viking
08-20-2012, 21:32
It doesn't seem as though you have brought the subject up with them however. Grunts are rarely in on the high-level doings but LEOs receive it. Talk to them



You know, you didn't even deserve that. Your tinfoil is so tightly wrapped you have now decided that the fact that it ISN'T hidden is the PROOF of a conspiracy.

If you want to worry about something, worry about the number of pens the Goverment orders, they are the most dangerous tools in the hands of government minions.


Well as a matter of fact I was discussing it with three of my good friends today. Two are retired Cols, special forces type, and the other was a distinguished military trauma surgeon and now is a super doc. You only get to see him on recommendation from another Dr; and, only if no other Dr can figure out what is wrong with you. They can tell you some interesting things. They were most interested in this subject. What is your next question?
Really and how much to the LEOs receive? Are you just another poster with no real knowledge or can you add something to this one way conversation as to information.
I have not seen this presidency hide anything including leaking sensitive intelligence information like a sieve.
Pens are especially dangerous when they are used to write executive orders.
Your tin foil insults only show that you incapable of adding any valuable and intelligent information. So far that is all you have to offer - ignorance and insults.
Keep believing in sweetness and light.

The Viking
08-20-2012, 21:41
So why don't you tell us, then?
I did.

The Viking
08-20-2012, 21:49
If your tinfoil hat getting your scalp sweaty? There is paranoia, there is healthy paranoia, and then there is you.

There is intelligence and there is information to analyze.
Apparently, you add nothing to either. That is you.

The Viking
08-20-2012, 22:09
Is that counting the fact that the USCG sidearm, service-wide, is the Sig 229R-DAK? Which is a .40? There's probably close to 50k USCG personnel.

So what. And how many Sigs does the coast guard have?
The coast guard also has a lot of other weapons ( M-4s, shotguns etc); and they are not LEOs. LEOs are armed with sidearms. Coast guard enlisted are not unless on special duty.
So how many Sigs do they have? Tell me cause I want to know if they are shooting up those 1.2 billion rounds.
Does anyone here do any real research before posting?
Seems most have nothing to offer but cute and unintelligent remarks.

MedicOni
08-20-2012, 22:54
So what. And how many Sigs does the coast guard have?
The coast guard also has a lot of other weapons ( M-4s, shotguns etc); and they are not LEOs. LEOs are armed with sidearms. Coast guard enlisted are not unless on special duty.
So how many Sigs do they have? Tell me cause I want to know if they are shooting up those 1.2 billion rounds.
Does anyone here do any real research before posting?
Seems most have nothing to offer but cute and unintelligent remarks.

True they have other weapons, but the Sig is the primary PDW for Coast Guardsman. And not only do you have LEOs from CG using them, units like Port Security and pilots will be carrying them as well. And Martime Enforcement (which I suppose can count as LEO since that is the duty they perform). All USCG ammo comes from DHS orders, as they are under DHS.
http://www.shootingtimes.com/2011/01/03/handgun_reviews_sig070606/ -- States that the USCG is replacing ALL M9s with Sigs.
http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,96246,00.html

I'll look more tomorrow after my exam. Damn Med-legal stuff keeps putting me to sleep.

countrygun
08-20-2012, 23:01
Well as a matter of fact I was discussing it with three of my good friends today. Two are retired Cols, special forces type, and the other was a distinguished military trauma surgeon and now is a super doc. You only get to see him on recommendation from another Dr; and, only if no other Dr can figure out what is wrong with you. They can tell you some interesting things. They were most interested in this subject. What is your next question?
Really and how much to the LEOs receive? Are you just another poster with no real knowledge or can you add something to this one way conversation as to information.
I have not seen this presidency hide anything including leaking sensitive intelligence information like a sieve.
Pens are especially dangerous when they are used to write executive orders.
Your tin foil insults only show that you incapable of adding any valuable and intelligent information. So far that is all you have to offer - ignorance and insults.
Keep believing in sweetness and light.



OOOOHHH I take conspiracy trolls sooooo seriously.

Gee, in the very short time since I posted you got this brain trust together and discussed littl ole' moi?

I am indeed flattered that such people could take time to meet with you on such a mundane issue.

Well, since they are so clued in, I am sure their connections will let them know," when it all starts going down",so since you have such connections please do keep us informed.

Stubudd
08-21-2012, 00:29
I'm hoping they're going to raid the home of whoever runs Prisonplanet.com and find out who all reads that POS site, then hunt them down and summarily execute them on the street.


That's nice. Ready to start purging yesterday huh? What was it in the other thread- the occupiers you wanted rounded up? Any other groups of americans on your short list for bagging or execution?

I was gonna post it in the other thread, but anyway- the main thing we have in common with nazi germany and every other place on earth are humans with personality types like yours. Authoritarians, fascists, some sociopaths mixed in, whatever you want to call it. The type capable of posting about killing people- americans, even- that they disapprove of- the type capable of even thinking it. For a second.

.

Kingarthurhk
08-21-2012, 04:49
There is intelligence and there is information to analyze.
Apparently, you add nothing to either. That is you.

You're right, logic and evidence would do nothing to change your mind. You have already decided. Could you next start a thread about FEMA camps? Than would be great....:rofl:

The Viking
08-21-2012, 08:18
OOOOHHH I take conspiracy trolls sooooo seriously.

Gee, in the very short time since I posted you got this brain trust together and discussed littl ole' moi?

I am indeed flattered that such people could take time to meet with you on such a mundane issue.

Well, since they are so clued in, I am sure their connections will let them know," when it all starts going down",so since you have such connections please do keep us informed.

Nope I have coffee with them regularly. They are friends of mine. I can also eat lunch with retired military officers once a month.
Who do you meet with? Anyone with an IQ above room temperature?

The Viking
08-21-2012, 08:32
You're right, logic and evidence would do nothing to change your mind. You have already decided. Could you next start a thread about FEMA camps? Than would be great....:rofl:
When you have some evidence to present feel free to post.
Here is a summary of events for you ( although I doubt you can do much with number crunching).
1.5 billion rounds ordered by DHS
2. Press releases on ATK website and solicitations to bid checked
3. Feds have approximately 70,000 LEOs as of 1993
4. 800,000 state county and metro LEOs in entire US
5. From 2002 to 2007 US military orders 9.2 billion small arms rounds for troops in Afghanistan and Iraq. Two war theaters.
6. 150,000 LEOs ( there is only 165,000 people under DHS and that includes support secretaries, accountants etc) firing 2000 rounds will only shoot up 300,000 million rounds. That leaves 900 million left. Know any police forces that require all their officers to qualify with 2,000 rounds? If so tell me.
7. Now figure out the logistics of busing, firing, and supporting 70, 000 police officers even once a year and the man hours involved, range positions needed, and ranges needed. Find out how many rounds federal LEOs have to fire to qualify. (Why do you think they have SWAT teams and Hostage rescue teams. Could be that most are not well trained).
You cannot even do that can you? I can.
Where is your evidence?

The Viking
08-21-2012, 08:54
True they have other weapons, but the Sig is the primary PDW for Coast Guardsman. And not only do you have LEOs from CG using them, units like Port Security and pilots will be carrying them as well. And Martime Enforcement (which I suppose can count as LEO since that is the duty they perform). All USCG ammo comes from DHS orders, as they are under DHS.
http://www.shootingtimes.com/2011/01/03/handgun_reviews_sig070606/ -- States that the USCG is replacing ALL M9s with Sigs.
http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,96246,00.html

I'll look more tomorrow after my exam. Damn Med-legal stuff keeps putting me to sleep.

Yes I read those articles. However, this still does not tell me how many were ordered, who is carrying them, and how many are regularly armed ( everday carry) with them. What is the Coast Guards primary mission? Search and rescue? Are they cops or sailors? What they spend of their time training for? How many do and how often are they required to qualify? Where would coast guardsmen, who work out of ports, qualify? I know of no big military ranges located in port cities.Weapons in the military are pretty strictly controlled. How many are support personnel in the Coast Guard?
In all of DHS there are approximately 165,000 personnel. (50,000 in the Coast Guard). That includes secretaries, accountants, support personnel and leos.
This is a number crunching game. General statements do not constitute any evidence. Problem is most people cannot get their heads wrapped around large numbers.
Good luck on your test!

The Viking
08-21-2012, 09:00
A general message to all you doubting Thomases. 65% of the people said they did not want Obama care. Did not stop this president or congress. You now have Obama care. Yup the dems lost the house ( but not the senate) and you still have Obama care.
So what makes you think you will not get gun control, either de facto or overt, whether you want it or not?

The Viking
08-21-2012, 09:09
[QUOTE=countrygun;19330467]OOOOHHH I take conspiracy trolls sooooo seriously.

You know I am glad you do cause in case you forgot the army experimented on its own personnel with LSD, the govt allowed a group of black men to go untreated with veneral disease to see the effects, and, Obama declared the war in Afghanistan a "war of necessity" during his election campaign and then announced, after being elected and sending thousands more troops, that we would leave in 2014. The Taliban are regularly treated for wounds in Pakistan's hospitals and Pakistan is our ally ( Ha). That would be like the Germans being treated for wounds in British hospitals during WW II. In one year, after our pullout, Afghanistan will again be controlled by the Taliban.
Hidden conspiracy? Nope evidence is right in front your nose and in the open. That is the hardest place to see it.

The Viking
08-21-2012, 09:19
No, because he based it on a stupid article by someone who doesn't know enough about ammo to know different guns use different calibers and an article that shows no factual basis for its nutty conclusions. A perfectly ordinary amount of ammunition order by the feds law enforcement training center is not a basis for a rational person to start wildly speculating about government conspiracies. The article is stupid, even for its source, and for people who allegedly own guns to take it seriously is ridiculous.

As I said it was checked out on the ATK website under press releases and the solicitation to bid. If 1.5 billion rounds is perfectly ordinary amount of ammo order then explain to me why it is - considering the military ordered 9.2 billion rounds from 2002 to 2007 with troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.
You really have no idea what an ordinary order of ammo is do you? The only thing showing stupidity is you.

The Viking
08-21-2012, 09:22
No need for paranoia or tin foil, I posted this on another thread on this same issue:

I used to oversee the budget for approximately 500 staff for annual firearms re-qualification, and annually approved the purchase of 60,000 rounds of 9mm, 60,000 rounds of 5.56, and 30,000 rounds of 12 gauge rounds, solely for training purposes. It took around six to eight weeks in rotation to re-qualify all staff.

This didn't include purchases for special ops teams who trained every other month and quarterly, and didn't include ammo purchases for duty carry either.

Given this, the purchase of 'huge" amounts of ammo isn't an unexpected purchase for an entire government agency. Also, as the federal fiscal year ends September 30th each year, we had to have all year-end funds or the current fiscal year spent before September 1st every year, or lose the equal funding for the upcoming fiscal year.

I forgot to ask how many rounds do your officers ( non swat) regularly fire to qualify on a yearly basis?

kirgi08
08-21-2012, 10:56
Because sling shots are fairly ineffective.

Wrong.'08.

countrygun
08-21-2012, 11:37
[QUOTE=countrygun;19330467]OOOOHHH I take conspiracy trolls sooooo seriously.

You know I am glad you do cause in case you forgot the army experimented on its own personnel with LSD, the govt allowed a group of black men to go untreated with veneral disease to see the effects, and, Obama declared the war in Afghanistan a "war of necessity" during his election campaign and then announced, after being elected and sending thousands more troops, that we would leave in 2014. The Taliban are regularly treated for wounds in Pakistan's hospitals and Pakistan is our ally ( Ha). That would be like the Germans being treated for wounds in British hospitals during WW II. In one year, after our pullout, Afghanistan will again be controlled by the Taliban.
Hidden conspiracy? Nope evidence is right in front your nose and in the open. That is the hardest place to see it.

http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/ee518/CountryG/PBF.png

The Fist Of Goodness
08-21-2012, 11:51
Quit being lazy and giving the lazy explanations without anything to back you up. Try adding up just how many LEO officers there are in DHS and dividing that into the number of rounds ordered and get a real shock. Saying there are many says absolutely nothing. The sheer number in the order does not account for all your explanations.
Dept of Defense orders their own ammo. They do not order it through DHS and they certainly have no use for all that 40 cal ammo. Try looking and see how much they ordered.
A friend of mind crunched all these numbers for me when I also expressed doubt. He convinced me something was afoot.
You can do some real research or stick your head back in the sand.

I actually did do that on a thread a few months back. I will look for the post and repost it here. My conclusions, from the standpoint of a firearms instructor at a federal agency, were that the DHS purchase was reasonable, just as th SSA purchase was reasonable, using an average of 250 rds per agent per quarter for training and quals. (Which is what my agents shoot).

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

The Fist Of Goodness
08-21-2012, 12:05
This was my post in the April thread on the 700,000,000 round DHS contract:

"There are approximately 21000 Border Patrol Agents, another 21000 armed CBP Inspectors, almost 5000 Secret Service (uniform division, and Special Agents), 8500 ICE Special Agents, with another couple thousand Deportation Officers. There are also Air Marshals, Coast Guard, FLETC (which shoots a crap load of ammo every year), and a host of OIGs.

At 250 rds per quarter, just Border Patrol and CBP will shoot over 200 million of those rds over 5 years.

Also, if i read the contract right, they are contracted to buy up to that number at the contract price."

Sorry I couldn't link the thread but I am posting from my phone.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

The Viking
08-21-2012, 13:21
This was my post in the April thread on the 700,000,000 round DHS contract:

"There are approximately 21000 Border Patrol Agents, another 21000 armed CBP Inspectors, almost 5000 Secret Service (uniform division, and Special Agents), 8500 ICE Special Agents, with another couple thousand Deportation Officers. There are also Air Marshals, Coast Guard, FLETC (which shoots a crap load of ammo every year), and a host of OIGs.

At 250 rds per quarter, just Border Patrol and CBP will shoot over 200 million of those rds over 5 years.

Also, if i read the contract right, they are contracted to buy up to that number at the contract price."

Sorry I couldn't link the thread but I am posting from my phone.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

The Border Patrol 21,000
CPB +5,000
26,000

250 rounds per quarter x 4 = 1,000 rounds
26,000 x 1,000 = 26,000,000 rounds per year.
5X 26,000,000 rounds.
Is that what you said? Are you telling me every man in the border patrol and CPB shoots 1,000 rounds a year?
So it takes 26,000 agents 5 years - five years to shoot up 200 million rounds of a 1.2 billion round order?
So we have how many rounds left over in the 700 million order? 400 million? In the 450 million order, we still have 250 million rounds left over after 5 years. That makes the order look even more odd, huge and unnecessary to me. Either there is something afoot or the feds are wasting my tax money on a massive scale.
200,000 leos shooting 1,000 rounds in one year only shoot up 300 million rounds.
Best I can come up with is there were around 69,000 federal leos in 1993. Have no idea how many have been added. However, a lot of them are basically security guards ( like the retired military police my buddy saw at the VA the other day. Don't know why the local VA thinks they need leos). Small office too.
I appreciate your effort. Problem is when you dealing with such large numbers it is hard for someone to get their mind wrapped around them. Consider the military from 2003 to 2007 ordered 9.2 billion rounds with troops in both Iraq and Afghanistan. That really makes a 1.2 billion order of DHS look strange. Anyway I sent your post to my number cruncher and I am waiting to see what he says.

The Viking
08-21-2012, 13:22
[quote=The Viking;19331370]

http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/ee518/CountryG/PBF.png

Thank you for your ignorant response. I shall treasure it.

Blast
08-21-2012, 13:32
http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/206271_1992888744751_1319397650_32372208_6574380_n.jpg

The Fist Of Goodness
08-21-2012, 13:56
It was 21,000 Border Patrol, and 21,000 CBP officers, (42,000 total) plus the rest that I listed. I know that my agency shoots an average of 250 rds per quarter in training per agent (that number includes the ammo that agents load for duty carry at the end of training).

Also, that contract stated that DHS would purchase UP TO 700,000,000 rounds in the next 5 years at a set contract price.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

The Viking
08-21-2012, 16:43
It was 21,000 Border Patrol, and 21,000 CBP officers, (42,000 total) plus the rest that I listed. I know that my agency shoots an average of 250 rds per quarter in training per agent (that number includes the ammo that agents load for duty carry at the end of training).

Also, that contract stated that DHS would purchase UP TO 700,000,000 rounds in the next 5 years at a set contract price.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

Yes you did - sorry I missed the correct number in your original post. You said these 42,000 agents would shoot up to 200 million rounds in training in five years. That still leaves me wondering why the total order was for 1.2 billion rounds. But let's use your 700,000 figure. Figuring we have to have some ammo stockpiled and some issued for carry ( but that would not be a lot) that would still make me wonder why the contract amount is so large even for 5 years. Why would the feds think they might need that amount of ammo? I am using your figures.
Probably I would need to figure from my research that says in 1993 we had around 70,000 leos. I will talk to my number cruncher in the next few days and see what he says.
ATK underwent a 282 million dollar upgrade and is now capable of producing 1.5 billion rounds per year.

Kingarthurhk
08-21-2012, 17:22
When you have some evidence to present feel free to post.
Here is a summary of events for you ( although I doubt you can do much with number crunching).
1.5 billion rounds ordered by DHS
2. Press releases on ATK website and solicitations to bid checked
3. Feds have approximately 70,000 LEOs as of 1993
4. 800,000 state county and metro LEOs in entire US
5. From 2002 to 2007 US military orders 9.2 billion small arms rounds for troops in Afghanistan and Iraq. Two war theaters.
6. 150,000 LEOs ( there is only 165,000 people under DHS and that includes support secretaries, accountants etc) firing 2000 rounds will only shoot up 300,000 million rounds. That leaves 900 million left. Know any police forces that require all their officers to qualify with 2,000 rounds? If so tell me.
7. Now figure out the logistics of busing, firing, and supporting 70, 000 police officers even once a year and the man hours involved, range positions needed, and ranges needed. Find out how many rounds federal LEOs have to fire to qualify. (Why do you think they have SWAT teams and Hostage rescue teams. Could be that most are not well trained).
You cannot even do that can you? I can.
Where is your evidence?

No, feel free to rank delusionally and piss all over the men and women's honor that put their lives every day. Because, after all, your paranoid rants are all that really matter.

The Conspiracy Song.mov - YouTube

:whistling:

The Viking
08-22-2012, 08:34
No, feel free to rank delusionally and piss all over the men and women's honor that put their lives every day. Because, after all, your paranoid rants are all that really matter.

The Conspiracy Song.mov - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4YEYijXvzU)

:whistling:

Moron the people putting their lives on the line are US troops in Afghanistan. Exactly how many federal police were killed and wounded last year. If you want to put your life on the line join the Marine Corps. Sorry if I do not think the custodial security being provided at a lot of govt bldgs is exactly life threatening and requires them to shoot up expensive ammo for practice when the nation is rapidly going broke. Using a meat axe on the federal budget is badly needed.
I would exempt the Border Patrol and a few other engaged federal agencies. But not the custodial meter maids and chair warming cockroach bureaucrats that infest the federal govt even in the police forces.

The Viking
08-22-2012, 08:46
This was my post in the April thread on the 700,000,000 round DHS contract:

"There are approximately 21000 Border Patrol Agents, another 21000 armed CBP Inspectors, almost 5000 Secret Service (uniform division, and Special Agents), 8500 ICE Special Agents, with another couple thousand Deportation Officers. There are also Air Marshals, Coast Guard, FLETC (which shoots a crap load of ammo every year), and a host of OIGs.

At 250 rds per quarter, just Border Patrol and CBP will shoot over 200 million of those rds over 5 years.

Also, if i read the contract right, they are contracted to buy up to that number at the contract price."

Sorry I couldn't link the thread but I am posting from my phone.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

Using your own figures does not justify the purchase of 700, million rounds of ammo for the federal govt much less the total 1.2 billion. Let me explain when you issue this kind of a contract - of up to 700 million rounds for five years you get a really crummy price from the manufacturers. If they figure you are not going to use the total amount, they will up the price considerably. Obviously, their pencils are a lot sharper than yours. So, if that is the case, what we have is another colossal waste of money by the federal govt. Not to mention I see no reason for the need to shoot expensive ammo on this scale for training purpose. It is simply another waste of money. All this at a time when the nation is bankrupt and borrowing money on a huge scale.
Maybe you are right it is not backdoor gun control it is colossal government stupidity. It is long past time to take a meat axe to federal govt's budget.

Chesafreak
08-22-2012, 08:46
This give a pretty good explanation of why those agencies are buying ammo: http://www.ammoland.com/2012/08/21/federal-law-enforcement-agencies-buy-ammunition/#axzz24HoXMxSC

The Viking
08-22-2012, 08:55
This give a pretty good explanation of why those agencies are buying ammo: http://www.ammoland.com/2012/08/21/federal-law-enforcement-agencies-buy-ammunition/#axzz24HoXMxSC

It does if you forget it left out the 700+ million ammo order in its explanation. I cannot find that order but I have limited time so can you find it?

TheJ
08-22-2012, 09:17
When detecting the sound of hooves, there will always be some who assume it must be zebras.

FFR Spyder GT
08-22-2012, 09:31
Everybody keeps forgetting that they are buying the ammo for two reasons.......

1.) For the armed guards at the FEMA camps.

2.) For all the UN troops that Obama will bring to the USA to enforce Martial Law after its apparent that he will lose the 2012 election.

Cavalry Doc
08-22-2012, 09:53
Everybody keeps forgetting that they are buying the ammo for two reasons.......

1.) For the armed guards at the FEMA camps.

2.) For all the UN troops that Obama will bring to the USA to enforce Martial Law after its apparent that he will lose the 2012 election.

Why pistol ammo then??

Seems that rifle ammo would be better for that.

The Viking
08-22-2012, 10:15
Why pistol ammo then??

Seems that rifle ammo would be better for that.

Don't confuse them with logic.

FFR Spyder GT
08-22-2012, 11:02
Why pistol ammo then??

Seems that rifle ammo would be better for that.

Separate order. This one is just for pistol ammo.

countrygun
08-22-2012, 11:06
Don't confuse them with logic.


I don't think he is the one confused by logic,

just sayin.

Blast
08-22-2012, 11:43
http://www.animateit.net/data/media/nov2011/we_are_going_to_die.gif

Cavalry Doc
08-22-2012, 12:58
Separate order. This one is just for pistol ammo.

:fishing: I think I get it now. Yer just trollin'

FFR Spyder GT
08-22-2012, 13:23
:fishing: I think I get it now. Yer just trollin'

Nope, just having a little fun.

The Viking
08-22-2012, 14:15
I don't think he is the one confused by logic,

just sayin.

I would not worry about confusing you with it. There is no need.

The Fist Of Goodness
08-22-2012, 14:20
Using your own figures does not justify the purchase of 700, million rounds of ammo for the federal govt much less the total 1.2 billion. Let me explain when you issue this kind of a contract - of up to 700 million rounds for five years you get a really crummy price from the manufacturers. If they figure you are not going to use the total amount, they will up the price considerably. Obviously, their pencils are a lot sharper than yours. So, if that is the case, what we have is another colossal waste of money by the federal govt. Not to mention I see no reason for the need to shoot expensive ammo on this scale for training purpose. It is simply another waste of money. All this at a time when the nation is bankrupt and borrowing money on a huge scale.
Maybe you are right it is not backdoor gun control it is colossal government stupidity. It is long past time to take a meat axe to federal govt's budget.

If the have a CONTRACT to buy bulk ammunition over a five year period at a certain price, how can the company punitively raise the price, unless it states it in the contract?

Have you seen the contract (not the press release) that states that the company can raise the price?

Obviously, their pencils are a lot sharper than yours.


I have been nothing but civil to you in this thread. I have related my experiences as a firearms instructor for a large federal agency in determining how many rounds would be used to qualify individual agents or officers, and don't recall throwing any insults your way.

countrygun
08-22-2012, 14:20
I would not worry about confusing you with it. There is no need.


Still trying to ignore what the people with actual EXPERIENCE are saying?

The Viking
08-22-2012, 14:20
When detecting the sound of hooves, there will always be some who assume it must be zebras.

Damn good thing it was not elephants but just another bunch of wildebeest.

Cavalry Doc
08-22-2012, 15:22
Nope, just having a little fun.

Tomato Tom-ah-to

countrygun
08-22-2012, 17:37
IDIQ

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

IDIQ is a contracting acronym meaning Indefinite delivery/indefinite quantity. This is a type of contract that provides for an indefinite quantity of supplies or services during a fixed period of time. The legal origin of IDIQ contracts is the Federal Acquisition Regulation (FAR), section 16.501(a).

IDIQ contracts are most often used for service contracts and Architect-Engineering (A-E) services. Awards are usually for base years as well as option years. The Government places delivery orders (for supplies) or task orders (for services) against a basic contract for individual requirements. Minimum and maximum quantity limits are specified in the basic contract as either number of units (for supplies) or as dollar values (for services). The Government uses an IDIQ contract when it cannot predetermine, above a specified minimum, the precise quantities of supplies or services that the Government will require during the contract period.[1][2]

Kingarthurhk
08-22-2012, 17:55
Moron the people putting their lives on the line are US troops in Afghanistan. Exactly how many federal police were killed and wounded last year. If you want to put your life on the line join the Marine Corps. Sorry if I do not think the custodial security being provided at a lot of govt bldgs is exactly life threatening and requires them to shoot up expensive ammo for practice when the nation is rapidly going broke. Using a meat axe on the federal budget is badly needed.
I would exempt the Border Patrol and a few other engaged federal agencies. But not the custodial meter maids and chair warming cockroach bureaucrats that infest the federal govt even in the police forces.

I wouldn't waste your time, you wouldn't care. It doesn't fit into your bizarre perspective.

Now, to play into your hand, and perhaps make your therapist wealthier:

Who imposese martial law? Who executes martial law? I'll give you two guesses, and one is not law enforcement.

Whoops.:upeyes:

The Viking
08-22-2012, 21:48
If the have a CONTRACT to buy bulk ammunition over a five year period at a certain price, how can the company punitively raise the price, unless it states it in the contract?

Have you seen the contract (not the press release) that states that the company can raise the price?



I have been nothing but civil to you in this thread. I have related my experiences as a firearms instructor for a large federal agency in determining how many rounds would be used to qualify individual agents or officers, and don't recall throwing any insults your way.

They give the bad price from the get go. No need to up it at all.

The Viking
08-23-2012, 08:29
IDIQ

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

IDIQ is a contracting acronym meaning Indefinite delivery/indefinite quantity. This is a type of contract that provides for an indefinite quantity of supplies or services during a fixed period of time. The legal origin of IDIQ contracts is the Federal Acquisition Regulation (FAR), section 16.501(a).

IDIQ contracts are most often used for service contracts and Architect-Engineering (A-E) services. Awards are usually for base years as well as option years. The Government places delivery orders (for supplies) or task orders (for services) against a basic contract for individual requirements. Minimum and maximum quantity limits are specified in the basic contract as either number of units (for supplies) or as dollar values (for services). The Government uses an IDIQ contract when it cannot predetermine, above a specified minimum, the precise quantities of supplies or services that the Government will require during the contract period.[1][2]

And when it cannot determine with any accuracy what the devil the maximum amount is and gives an enormous amount over and above what it will actually need, I as a manufacturer must set aside machinery and labor to meet that maximum demand or otherwise be in breach of contract. Therefore, the govt, which does not seem to give a damn how it spends your taxpayer dollars, gets charged a enormous price for me to set aside the machinery and labor it has required in the contract; but may not be used at all. You are paying for the overcapacity sloppy govt logistics and accounting has required. Now that is as simple as I can make it for you. There are a lot more complications. But my time is limited and you will have to educate yourself.

The Viking
08-23-2012, 08:30
I wouldn't waste your time, you wouldn't care. It doesn't fit into your bizarre perspective.

Now, to play into your hand, and perhaps make your therapist wealthier:

Who imposese martial law? Who executes martial law? I'll give you two guesses, and one is not law enforcement.

Whoops.:upeyes:

Refresh my memory, quote me where I said it was.

The Viking
08-23-2012, 08:41
Still trying to ignore what the people with actual EXPERIENCE are saying?

In CONGRESSIONAL TESTIMONY (I read the congressional transcripts ) US Maj. Gen. testified that in 12 month period spring 2003 to spring 2004 Iraq operations used 72 million rounds total and monthly rate at time of testimony 6/2004 was 5.5 million rounds per month. Roughly 150,000 troops in country at that time.


So take just the 450,000 million rounds of 40 cal HP (forget the 200million from year before or the 750 million in other request and 100 million from FBI and SSA and NOAA and who knows what else)


450 million / 5.5 million per month = 82 months So domestic police officers in DHS are going to maybe need in fives years what the entire war effort in Iraq 2004 (it was hot at that time and even more so the previous year) would have used in 7 years!!!!!!!!!! The 200 million 40 cal HP rounds ordered earlier would have lasted 36 months (3 years) in Iraq during war but DHS had already blown through that in less than 24 months.


Take the requested 750 million rounds and that would supply the 2004 level Iraq war for 136 months or 11.3 years on top of the 10 years above.


So again no matter how many LEOs are exactly in DHS (remember total department secretaries, accountants etc is about 165,000) those 165,000 mixed LEOs and office personnel are going to consume more ammo in 5 years than 150,000 soldiers in combat did or would in 20+ years of combat. I would also point out that at that time the press and congress was heavy with can we sustain that level of operation could the military handle the load - but DHS can operate at 4 times that rate no problem not even break a sweat!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I reckon the Maj General had some experience. Army logistics are much better obviously. Go buy a calculator.

The Fist Of Goodness
08-23-2012, 08:57
In CONGRESSIONAL TESTIMONY (I read the congressional transcripts ) US Maj. Gen. testified that in 12 month period spring 2003 to spring 2004 Iraq operations used 72 million rounds total and monthly rate at time of testimony 6/2004 was 5.5 million rounds per month. Roughly 150,000 troops in country at that time.


So take just the 450,000 million rounds of 40 cal HP (forget the 200million from year before or the 750 million in other request and 100 million from FBI and SSA and NOAA and who knows what else)


450 million / 5.5 million per month = 82 months So domestic police officers in DHS are going to maybe need in fives years what the entire war effort in Iraq 2004 (it was hot at that time and even more so the previous year) would have used in 7 years!!!!!!!!!! The 200 million 40 cal HP rounds ordered earlier would have lasted 36 months (3 years) in Iraq during war but DHS had already blown through that in less than 24 months.


Take the requested 750 million rounds and that would supply the 2004 level Iraq war for 136 months or 11.3 years on top of the 10 years above.


So again no matter how many LEOs are exactly in DHS (remember total department secretaries, accountants etc is about 165,000) those 165,000 mixed LEOs and office personnel are going to consume more ammo in 5 years than 150,000 soldiers in combat did or would in 20+ years of combat. I would also point out that at that time the press and congress was heavy with can we sustain that level of operation could the military handle the load - but DHS can operate at 4 times that rate no problem not even break a sweat!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I reckon the Maj General had some experience. Army logistics are much better obviously. Go buy a calculator.

How many rounds did the military burn through in training in the same time period? How many of those 150,000 soldiers are actively engaged in combat operations (in other words, what is the true number of shooters expending the majority of the 72 million rounds in combat vs. Support troops who rarely (or never) fire their weapons? You cannot make a comparison between a fixed number of rounds fired in training, and combat operations where all factors are variable.

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The Viking
08-23-2012, 12:34
How many rounds did the military burn through in training in the same time period? How many of those 150,000 soldiers are actively engaged in combat operations (in other words, what is the true number of shooters expending the majority of the 72 million rounds in combat vs. Support troops who rarely (or never) fire their weapons? You cannot make a comparison between a fixed number of rounds fired in training, and combat operations where all factors are variable.

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http://www.giyf.com/

The Fist Of Goodness
08-23-2012, 12:43
http://www.giyf.com/

Once again, you resort to insults. I'm done.

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Cavalry Doc
08-23-2012, 12:56
In CONGRESSIONAL TESTIMONY (I read the congressional transcripts ) US Maj. Gen. testified that in 12 month period spring 2003 to spring 2004 Iraq operations used 72 million rounds total and monthly rate at time of testimony 6/2004 was 5.5 million rounds per month. Roughly 150,000 troops in country at that time.


So take just the 450,000 million rounds of 40 cal HP (forget the 200million from year before or the 750 million in other request and 100 million from FBI and SSA and NOAA and who knows what else)


450 million / 5.5 million per month = 82 months So domestic police officers in DHS are going to maybe need in fives years what the entire war effort in Iraq 2004 (it was hot at that time and even more so the previous year) would have used in 7 years!!!!!!!!!! The 200 million 40 cal HP rounds ordered earlier would have lasted 36 months (3 years) in Iraq during war but DHS had already blown through that in less than 24 months.


Take the requested 750 million rounds and that would supply the 2004 level Iraq war for 136 months or 11.3 years on top of the 10 years above.


So again no matter how many LEOs are exactly in DHS (remember total department secretaries, accountants etc is about 165,000) those 165,000 mixed LEOs and office personnel are going to consume more ammo in 5 years than 150,000 soldiers in combat did or would in 20+ years of combat. I would also point out that at that time the press and congress was heavy with can we sustain that level of operation could the military handle the load - but DHS can operate at 4 times that rate no problem not even break a sweat!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I reckon the Maj General had some experience. Army logistics are much better obviously. Go buy a calculator.

I used to run pistol ranges in my battalion. Most soldiers don't carry pistols, and most of the ammo used in combat and training is rifle and machine gun ammo.

Apples and oranges. If all we used in combat was pistol ammo, there would be a big problem.

The General Accounting Office (GAO) reports that our forces are now using 1.8 billion rounds of small-arms ammunition a year — a level of use that has more than doubled in five years. The report states:

“The Department of Defense’s increased requirements for small- and medium-calibre ammunitions have largely been driven by increased weapons training requirements, dictated by the army’s transformation to a more self-sustaining and lethal force – which was accelerated after the attacks of 11 September, 2001 – and by the deployment of forces to conduct recent US military actions in Afghanistan and Iraq.”

That's Billion, with a "b". Try an abacus.

countrygun
08-23-2012, 12:59
Once again, you resort to insults. I'm done.

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He doesn't want information or knowledge, he has no use for it. He might trip over it as he runs around yelling "Conspiracy, Conspiracy".

If he paid attention to what he is being told by experienced people, then he wouldn't believe in the conspiracy and would no longer be "special"

The Fist Of Goodness
08-23-2012, 13:20
He doesn't want information or knowledge, he has no use for it. He might trip over it as he runs around yelling "Conspiracy, Conspiracy".

If he paid attention to what he is being told by experienced people, then he wouldn't believe in the conspiracy and would no longer be "special"

:-)

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The Viking
08-23-2012, 15:56
I used to run pistol ranges in my battalion. Most soldiers don't carry pistols, and most of the ammo used in combat and training is rifle and machine gun ammo.

Yup.

Apples and oranges. If all we used in combat was pistol ammo, there would be a big problem.

Round vs round count.


That's Billion, with a "b". Try an abacus.

1.8 billion for 2, 278, 895 personnel. I would have thought it would be a bit more.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Armed_Forces

The Viking
08-23-2012, 15:58
Once again, you resort to insults. I'm done.

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Do your own research.

The Viking
08-23-2012, 15:59
He doesn't want information or knowledge, he has no use for it. He might trip over it as he runs around yelling "Conspiracy, Conspiracy".

If he paid attention to what he is being told by experienced people, then he wouldn't believe in the conspiracy and would no longer be "special"

Let me know when you are going to provide some solid information, Mr. Experience.

The Viking
08-23-2012, 16:11
If the have a CONTRACT to buy bulk ammunition over a five year period at a certain price, how can the company punitively raise the price, unless it states it in the contract?

Have you seen the contract (not the press release) that states that the company can raise the price?



I have been nothing but civil to you in this thread. I have related my experiences as a firearms instructor for a large federal agency in determining how many rounds would be used to qualify individual agents or officers, and don't recall throwing any insults your way.

My apology to you. My insults are not aimed at you, you are a field soldier. My insults are meant for the bean counters and bureaucrats that control your behavior and careers, such as the brilliant personnel that thought up Fast and Furious. Nothing personal was meant towards you as an individual.

The Viking
08-23-2012, 16:20
I used to run pistol ranges in my battalion. Most soldiers don't carry pistols, and most of the ammo used in combat and training is rifle and machine gun ammo.

Apples and oranges. If all we used in combat was pistol ammo, there would be a big problem.



That's Billion, with a "b". Try an abacus.


Here is a better question for you to ponder. But first some information, My own state police force is issued
( troopers), every year, 500 rounds of practice ammo, 200 rounds of carry ammo, and 200 rounds to qualify with.
The carry ammo is shot up at the end of the year to familiarize the trooper with it and because he will be issued another 200 rounds. Bids are let on the carry ammo ( which is less expensive ball) and the carry ammo ( which is not ball).
Question:
Why does federal law enforcement have to use only
expensive hollow point ammunition to practice with?
( Remember the military uses ball ).
Why not the less expensive ball ammo as practice ammo.
Especially at a time when the Nation is heavily in debt.

Ruble Noon
08-23-2012, 16:24
..

FYI, you are conversing with people that are okey dokey with Obama assassinating American citizens.

countrygun
08-23-2012, 16:51
Let me know when you are going to provide some solid information, Mr. Experience.


I have worked in givernment an I know how the budgeting and purchasing is done by agencies. the whole mess convinced me to work in the private sector for myself, but this type of PO for future purchases is common.

I have also seen this same dipstick panic happen more than once when the fiscal year budgets come out . I wonder if anybody has bothered to look deep enough to see if these new contracts supercede prior ones and extend the amounts due to increased manpower in agencies and to lock down the prices so the actual purchases in the future can be more accurately budgeted for?

Kentak
08-23-2012, 17:03
I'm sure it's related to the little black helicopters buzzing around your neighborhood.

countrygun
08-23-2012, 17:08
FYI, you are conversing with people that are okey dokey with Obama assassinating American citizens.

Aw I suppose you are still PO'ed because Bonnie and Clyde never got a fair trial


:upeyes:

Ruble Noon
08-23-2012, 17:39
Aw I suppose you are still PO'ed because Bonnie and Clyde never got a fair trial


:upeyes:

I've had several liberal stalker trolls, now it seems I have a welfare farmer stalker troll.

countrygun
08-23-2012, 17:45
I've had several liberal stalker trolls, now it seems I have a welfare farmer stalker troll.


You are even further proving that you don't know what you are talking about.

But you are proving that my posts are accurate enough you have notheing left but ad hom attacks .

whimper some more.




I have pointed out before that I more or less "retired" from my own business and working in the private sector and I take no Governemrnt money not even old enough for Social Security.

what I do now is totally on my own $$$ with no tax breaks or subsidies.

I am not a "farmer" but that seems to be a hangup of yours from your preconceived and obvously prejudice view of what it means to be a "country" person. this again shows you ignorance and the narrowness of your streotype.

what do you have against framers anyway?

Ruble Noon
08-23-2012, 17:51
You are even further proving that you don't know what you are talking about.

But you are proving that my posts are accurate enough you have notheing left but ad hom attacks .

whimper some more.

I'm not the one whining to the government for a welfare check.

countrygun
08-23-2012, 18:00
I'm not the one whining to the government for a welfare check.


You are completely dense and a liar.

If you can prove I take one dime from the Governemnt instead of paying ridiculous taxes please tell my accountant cause she and I are overlooking it.

If social security still exist it won't make a drop in my income when I reach that age.

So I say again, you are a liar.

Ruble Noon
08-23-2012, 18:09
You are completely dense and a liar.

If you can prove I take one dime from the Governemnt instead of paying ridiculous taxes please tell my accountant cause she and I are overlooking it.

If social security still exist it won't make a drop in my income when I reach that age.

So I say again, you are a liar.

A Statist that would deny itself the benefits of the state? I don't think so.

countrygun
08-23-2012, 18:15
A Statist that would deny itself the benefits of the state? I don't think so.


You really look like an *** I hope you realize that. you have streotyped me as a 'farmer" (which I am not) you don't know me from Adam's Off ox but you claim I am on some welfare (I am not) and your proof is further labeling me as a "Statist'? not one fact is correct. although you can twist the meaningless term "Statist" to mean "someone who disagrees with me" if you like.

Ruble Noon
08-23-2012, 18:22
You really look like an *** I hope you realize that. you have streotyped me as a 'farmer" (which I am not) you don't know me from Adam's Off ox but you claim I am on some welfare (I am not) and your proof is further labeling me as a "Statist'? not one fact is correct. although you can twist the meaningless term "Statist" to mean "someone who disagrees with me" if you like.

Don't blame me dude, you're the one that chose the name countrygun and started throwing ad hom's around about concrete jungles and alluding to your country life. If you don't want to be labeled as a statist or a subsidized welfare farmer then quit acting like one.

countrygun
08-23-2012, 18:28
Don't blame me dude, you're the one that chose the name countrygun and started throwing ad hom's around about concrete jungles and alluding to your country life. If you don't want to be labeled as a statist or a subsidized welfare farmer then quit acting like one.


What book told you what a "statist" and a "welfare farmer acts like?"

Sorry you have failed completely to try and stereotype me, you have been wrong every step of the way yet you still cling to your definitions like a conspiracy theorist to the conspiracy in the face of facts .

you are just full of wrong.

Ruble Noon
08-23-2012, 18:38
What book told you what a "statist" and a "welfare farmer acts like?"

Sorry you have failed completely to try and stereotype me, you have been wrong every step of the way yet you still cling to your definitions like a conspiracy theorist to the conspiracy in the face of facts .

you are just full of wrong.

So, you're not really country gun like you claim then? Thanks for confirming my suspicions. As far as you being a statist, that is obvious from your posting history. That you do not recognize it is a reflection on your intellect and that you do not admit it reflects on your honesty.

Kingarthurhk
08-23-2012, 18:54
The sky is falling. - YouTube

countrygun
08-23-2012, 18:54
So, you're not really country gun like you claim then? Thanks for confirming my suspicions. As far as you being a statist, that is obvious from your posting history. That you do not recognize it is a reflection on your intellect and that you do not admit it reflects on your honesty.


I am not "country" because you have a definition in your prejudice mind and I don't fit it?

You are slipping over the mental edge boy. You had better get a grip. Only a farmer is "country" by your definition?


I don't suppose breaking and training horses like this for autistic kids is "country"


http://i648.photobucket.com/albums/uu208/countrygun/horses.jpg




or having this as a backyard is "country"


http://i648.photobucket.com/albums/uu208/countrygun/IM002654.jpg


or being born and raised in it counts? no. you have your definition.


I realize that you are trying to pull my chain and you think you hit some gold with your lies, I realize it, but it is so easy to prove you are full of it, that it's almost fun

The Fist Of Goodness
08-23-2012, 19:05
Do your own research.

My point was to illustrate that you made an argument that was based on incomplete information, and a comparison of two dissimilar uses if ammunition.

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The Fist Of Goodness
08-23-2012, 19:06
So, you're not really country gun like you claim then? Thanks for confirming my suspicions. As far as you being a statist, that is obvious from your posting history. That you do not recognize it is a reflection on your intellect and that you do not admit it reflects on your honesty.

I guess I should confess that I am not really the Fist Of Goodness. :-)

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kirgi08
08-23-2012, 19:14
This went south fast.'08.

Cavalry Doc
08-23-2012, 19:20
1.8 billion for 2, 278, 895 personnel. I would have thought it would be a bit more.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Armed_Forces

Now you need to realize that not all military personnel shoot as much as others. Some fire 40 rounds a year, or less, some 40,000. Working in Finance is different than working in infantry. If you are gearing up for deployment, you fire a bit more than when you are winding down from one.

The point is you are comparing apples to oranges. You cannot draw an equivalence between the Military and Law Enforcement, they are simply different animals.

If you want to impress me, show me some historical norms per LEO, and how this is an increase. Till then....

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTAsx2PWN9ja_u2WUhFSf_O6T_2G0oUYzg5f-NaD1LOeg6eUE3hIQVhvAq2EQ

Ruble Noon
08-23-2012, 19:27
I am not "country" because you have a definition in your prejudice mind and I don't fit it?

You are slipping over the mental edge boy. You had better get a grip. Only a farmer is "country" by your definition?


I don't suppose breaking and training horses like this for autistic kids is "country"


http://i648.photobucket.com/albums/uu208/countrygun/horses.jpg




or having this as a backyard is "country"


http://i648.photobucket.com/albums/uu208/countrygun/IM002654.jpg


or being born and raised in it counts? no. you have your definition.


I realize that you are trying to pull my chain and you think you hit some gold with your lies, I realize it, but it is so easy to prove you are full of it, that it's almost fun

I guess you can consider yourself proof that liberals and statists do live in the country.

Cavalry Doc
08-23-2012, 19:31
Here is a better question for you to ponder. But first some information, My own state police force is issued
( troopers), every year, 500 rounds of practice ammo, 200 rounds of carry ammo, and 200 rounds to qualify with.
The carry ammo is shot up at the end of the year to familiarize the trooper with it and because he will be issued another 200 rounds. Bids are let on the carry ammo ( which is less expensive ball) and the carry ammo ( which is not ball).
Question:
Why does federal law enforcement have to use only
expensive hollow point ammunition to practice with?
( Remember the military uses ball ).
Why not the less expensive ball ammo as practice ammo.
Especially at a time when the Nation is heavily in debt.

If that is all your troopers shot, they are amateurs. I'm a casual shooter, and I reload WAY more than that in a year. Just because your state was cheap enough to only give them that much, does not mean that's all they shot.

And the point still remains, if you are planning on a war, pistol ammo is an afterthought. Show me the billions of rifle rounds being purchased. Handguns are a compromise from the beginning. The only reason I carry a G23, is that I haven't found a comfortable and effective concealment holster for my Mossberg 500 or DPMS LR308.




Lets start off with a very basic but important question, how many rounds a year do YOU fire?

countrygun
08-23-2012, 19:42
I guess you can consider yourself proof that liberals and statists do live in the country.

Naw the worst ones I know use the subtitle "Cracker", it's dead give away.

Ruble Noon
08-23-2012, 20:13
I realize that you are trying to pull my chain


No, not pulling you chain, just casting some of what you have sowed back your way, you know, the ad hom's and labels that you are so fond of using.

Cavalry Doc
08-23-2012, 20:19
Sheesh, will you two get a room or something. http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs45/f/2009/157/7/7/Darn_Kids_by_Nosayhara.gif

kirgi08
08-23-2012, 20:20
My thoughts exactly Doc.'08.

countrygun
08-23-2012, 20:26
Sheesh, will you two get a room or something. http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs45/f/2009/157/7/7/Darn_Kids_by_Nosayhara.gif

Hey, I tried to play nice, sort of.:dunno:

Ruble Noon
08-23-2012, 20:26
Sheesh, will you two get a room or something. http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs45/f/2009/157/7/7/Darn_Kids_by_Nosayhara.gif

You would be joining me if it were a liberal troll instead of a statist one.

Cavalry Doc
08-23-2012, 20:39
OK, I hate to play marriage counselor. But here goes nothing.

Neither of you like Obama. I get that, neither do I.

Ruble will probably vote for Johnson. Country will vote for Romney. For full disclosure, barring a major shift in the glide path, I'll be voting for Romney too.

Ruble wants people to vote a certain way. Country wants people to vote a certain way. Both aren't too fond of Barry. Both want a smaller government, even if you differ about how much smaller. Both of you have more respect for the constitution than anyone in Barry's cabinet.



Great, you are a lot more alike than you are different. You differ, just like the rest of us.

If there is any chance that you guys can agree to disagree on the little issues, and agree to agree and support each other on the big issues, have that PM conference.





None of us are going to agree all the time. Recognize the difference between someone that has a different opinion, and an enemy. I know exactly what to do to an enemy.

We are comrades in our fight against statism, communism and liberalism. We might place our targets and goals in different places, but that's the way it is, we have a common foe.

OK, this is the last time (I hope) that I will ask you two to hop onto the PM system and ask that you find some common ground.

:faint:

The Viking
08-23-2012, 21:07
The sky is falling. - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYgOFqpRIlA)


Amazon.com: Currency Wars: The Making of the Next Global Crisis (Portfolio) (9781591844495): James Rickards: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51iJfQZVNBL.@@AMEPARAM@@51iJfQZVNBL

The Viking
08-23-2012, 21:11
Now you need to realize that not all military personnel shoot as much as others. Some fire 40 rounds a year, or less, some 40,000. Working in Finance is different than working in infantry. If you are gearing up for deployment, you fire a bit more than when you are winding down from one.

The point is you are comparing apples to oranges. You cannot draw an equivalence between the Military and Law Enforcement, they are simply different animals.

If you want to impress me, show me some historical norms per LEO, and how this is an increase. Till then....

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTAsx2PWN9ja_u2WUhFSf_O6T_2G0oUYzg5f-NaD1LOeg6eUE3hIQVhvAq2EQ

Pretty much the same for law enforcement officers. Some shoot more than others.
Round count vs Round count. When the LEO round count gets higher than the military one, someone goofed.

The Viking
08-23-2012, 21:40
Now you need to realize that not all military personnel shoot as much as others. Some fire 40 rounds a year, or less, some 40,000. Working in Finance is different than working in infantry. If you are gearing up for deployment, you fire a bit more than when you are winding down from one.

The point is you are comparing apples to oranges. You cannot draw an equivalence between the Military and Law Enforcement, they are simply different animals.

If you want to impress me, show me some historical norms per LEO, and how this is an increase. Till then....

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTAsx2PWN9ja_u2WUhFSf_O6T_2G0oUYzg5f-NaD1LOeg6eUE3hIQVhvAq2EQ

Crunch the numbers:
First overall US military small arms round usage in WWII 42 billion /8.3 million men = 5,060) and the overall total US military of small arms rounds used from 2002-2007 (9.2 billion /2.3 million = 4,000) while wars in Afghan & Iraq are raging are very close to one another so gives confidence that that are good numbers - roughly 4-5 thousand per man for the total period - NOT PER YEAR BUT PER MAN FOR ENTIRE PERIOD. The quantities contracted/requested by DHS are several times those usage rates. So no matter how many LEOs exactly or whether includes CG or does not - domestic law officers need ammo at 2-3 the level of US COMBAT SOLDIERS (whether fighting in combat or training up for deployment) fighting in an all out no holds bar word war or 2 simultaneous wars in Iraq & Afghan with anywhere from 150,000 to 300,000 troops in theater during this period. Also remember we are talking about mainly semi -auto weapons in LEO usage and full auto and machine guns in military - so if anything would expect far higher ammo usage in military.


Secondly in CONGRESSIONAL TESTIMONY (I read the congressional transcripts myself ) US Maj. Gen.Blount testified that in 12 month period spring 2003 to spring 2004 Iraq operations used 72 million small arms rounds total and monthly rate at time of testimony 6/2004 was 5.5 million small arms rounds per month. Roughly 150,000 troops in country at that time.


So take just the 450,000 million rounds of 40 cal HP (forget the 200 million purchased by DHS the year before or the 750 million in another request or the 100 million 40 cal HP rounds requested FBI or the SSA request or the NOAA request and who knows what else is in pipeline, requested or proposed)


450 million 40 cal HP rounds contract by DHS / 5.5 million rounds per month (usage rate 2004 Iraq operations) = 82. So domestic police officers in DHS are going to possibly need in fives years what the entire war effort in Iraq at 2004 levels (it was hot at that time and even more so the previous year) would have used in 82 months or roughly 7 years!!!!!!!!!! The 200 million 40 cal HP rounds ordered earlier would have lasted 36 months (3 years) in Iraq during war but DHS has already blown through that in less than 24 months since ordering 2.5 times that now.


Take the requested 750 million rounds and that would supply (based on 2004 usage level) the Iraq war for 136 months or 11.3 years on top of the 10 years from those other contracts above.


So again no matter how many LEOs exactly are in DHS (remember total department secretaries, accountants etc is about 165,000) those 165,000 mixed LEOs and office personnel at DHS are going to consume more ammo in 5 years than 150,000 combat soldiers did in 20+ years of combat. I would also point out that at that time the press and congress was rampant with questions about can we sustain that level of operation could the military handle the load - but DHS can operate at 4 times that rate no problem not even break a sweat!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cavalry Doc
08-24-2012, 08:23
Crunch the numbers:
First overall US military small arms round usage in WWII 42 billion /8.3 million men = 5,060) and the overall total US military of small arms rounds used from 2002-2007 (9.2 billion /2.3 million = 4,000) while wars in Afghan & Iraq are raging are very close to one another so gives confidence that that are good numbers - roughly 4-5 thousand per man for the total period - NOT PER YEAR BUT PER MAN FOR ENTIRE PERIOD. The quantities contracted/requested by DHS are several times those usage rates. So no matter how many LEOs exactly or whether includes CG or does not - domestic law officers need ammo at 2-3 the level of US COMBAT SOLDIERS (whether fighting in combat or training up for deployment) fighting in an all out no holds bar word war or 2 simultaneous wars in Iraq & Afghan with anywhere from 150,000 to 300,000 troops in theater during this period. Also remember we are talking about mainly semi -auto weapons in LEO usage and full auto and machine guns in military - so if anything would expect far higher ammo usage in military.


Secondly in CONGRESSIONAL TESTIMONY (I read the congressional transcripts myself ) US Maj. Gen.Blount testified that in 12 month period spring 2003 to spring 2004 Iraq operations used 72 million small arms rounds total and monthly rate at time of testimony 6/2004 was 5.5 million small arms rounds per month. Roughly 150,000 troops in country at that time.


So take just the 450,000 million rounds of 40 cal HP (forget the 200 million purchased by DHS the year before or the 750 million in another request or the 100 million 40 cal HP rounds requested FBI or the SSA request or the NOAA request and who knows what else is in pipeline, requested or proposed)


450 million 40 cal HP rounds contract by DHS / 5.5 million rounds per month (usage rate 2004 Iraq operations) = 82. So domestic police officers in DHS are going to possibly need in fives years what the entire war effort in Iraq at 2004 levels (it was hot at that time and even more so the previous year) would have used in 82 months or roughly 7 years!!!!!!!!!! The 200 million 40 cal HP rounds ordered earlier would have lasted 36 months (3 years) in Iraq during war but DHS has already blown through that in less than 24 months since ordering 2.5 times that now.


Take the requested 750 million rounds and that would supply (based on 2004 usage level) the Iraq war for 136 months or 11.3 years on top of the 10 years from those other contracts above.


So again no matter how many LEOs exactly are in DHS (remember total department secretaries, accountants etc is about 165,000) those 165,000 mixed LEOs and office personnel at DHS are going to consume more ammo in 5 years than 150,000 combat soldiers did in 20+ years of combat. I would also point out that at that time the press and congress was rampant with questions about can we sustain that level of operation could the military handle the load - but DHS can operate at 4 times that rate no problem not even break a sweat!!!!!!!!!!!!!




It's obvious that I have been unable to illustrate to you the differences between military ammunition usage and LEO usage, and to understand that pistol ammunition is poorly suited for offensive operations.

If you want to be afraid of this, I guess you will be.

Maybe you should go online and buy a couple thousand rounds and some body armor for yourself. Don't forget the helmet, ballistic arm/leg covers and the gas mask.

The Viking
08-24-2012, 08:26
If that is all your troopers shot, they are amateurs. I'm a casual shooter, and I reload WAY more than that in a year. Just because your state was cheap enough to only give them that much, does not mean that's all they shot.

And the point still remains, if you are planning on a war, pistol ammo is an afterthought. Show me the billions of rifle rounds being purchased. Handguns are a compromise from the beginning. The only reason I carry a G23, is that I haven't found a comfortable and effective concealment holster for my Mossberg 500 or DPMS LR308.

Lets start off with a very basic but important question, how many rounds a year do YOU fire?

What makes you think police are great shooters? I have met quite a few who do not even like guns. Most police never draw their weapons in a real fight. They have many other duties as well. My state is not bankrupt like Moonbeams California, Christies and some others. How many does your state police shoot per year?
Excuse me, Doc, but where did I say anyone was planning a war?
Ah yes the old Thunder Ranch motto - " A handgun is only good for fighting your way back to the shotgun or rifle you should not have put down in the first place." Heard that one twice.
How many rounds do I shoot in a year? Well it is hobby of mine. So I try to shoot, conservatively at least 150 rounds every two weeks. I am fortunate because I live near an indoor range. Then I try to get to at least one tactical course a year. Last one was Travis Haley's AK course last Dec. Then I arrange for a trainer I know to come in and train some of my friends at least once a year. He stays in the upstair's apartment at my other house when he visits. The range is 8 minutes from my house. I have a deal with the Sheriff to use their range. Two deputies go through the course free of charge. Then I shoot one match a month about 150 rounds from Oct to May. My club's rifle range is about an one hour away so I do not get there that often. Beautiful range though. 25, 50, 600 yard ranges. Marines rented it from us to qualify. So hard to estimate how many rounds I shoot per year. Very very conservatively about 2,500 rounds. Could go higher as you can shoot anywhere from 700 to 1,000 in a weekend tactical course or less.
I was issued a 1911 in 1964 and my first issued military rifle was an M-1. M1, M14, M16. Seen em all. No telling how many rounds I have put down range
Why is that such an important question?
I would not worry too much about the Fed's wasting your tax dollars with stupid purchasing procedures though. If Obama gets re elected he has two appts to the Supreme Court he will make. You can kiss the second amendment goodbye then. Lawyers are great with double speak and double think.

The Viking
08-24-2012, 08:38
It's obvious that I have been unable to illustrate to you the differences between military ammunition usage and LEO usage, and to understand that pistol ammunition is poorly suited for offensive operations.

If you want to be afraid of this, I guess you will be.

Maybe you should go online and buy a couple thousand rounds and some body armor for yourself. Don't forget the helmet, ballistic arm/leg covers and the gas mask.

Sorry to disillusion you Doc but I have twenty years military service. Nothing you can teach me. We are comparing round counts not offensive operations.
I have already ordered a lot of ammo for this year. Since I no longer re load, I use Lucky Gunner and Natchez Shooting Supplies. Catch the sales. Couple of thousand rounds delivered to your door. Is this a great country or what? A lot of shooters I know use the aluminum blazers in the matches. Don't have to pick up the brass. We got lazy.
Here you want a real interesting conspiracy for a doc read this:
Amazon.com: Dr. Mary's Monkey: How the Unsolved Murder of a Doctor, a Secret Laboratory in New Orleans and Cancer-Causing Monkey Viruses are Linked to Lee Harvey ... Assassination and Emerging Global Epidemics (9780977795307): Edward T. Haslam, Jim Marrs: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51TH12TBRZL.@@AMEPARAM@@51TH12TBRZL
Enjoyed conversing with you.

Cavalry Doc
08-24-2012, 08:39
What makes you think police are great shooters? I have met quite a few who do not even like guns. Most police never draw their weapons in a real fight. They have many other duties as well. My state is not bankrupt like Moonbeams California, Christies and some others. How many does your state police shoot per year?
Excuse me, Doc, but where did I say anyone was planning a war?
Ah yes the old Thunder Ranch motto - " A handgun is only good for fighting your way back to the shotgun or rifle you should not have put down in the first place." Heard that one twice.
How many rounds do I shoot in a year? Well it is hobby of mine. So I try to shoot, conservatively at least 150 rounds every two weeks. I am fortunate because I live near an indoor range. Then I try to get to at least one tactical course a year. Last one was Travis Haley's AK course last Dec. Then I arrange for a trainer I know to come in and train some of my friends at least once a year. He stays in the upstair's apartment at my other house when he visits. The range is 8 minutes from my house. I have a deal with the Sheriff to use their range. Two deputies go through the course free of charge. Then I shoot one match a month about 150 rounds from Oct to May. My club's rifle range is about an one hour away so I do not get there that often. Beautiful range though. 25, 50, 600 yard ranges. Marines rented it from us to qualify. So hard to estimate how many rounds I shoot per year. Very very conservatively about 2,500 rounds. Could go higher as you can shoot anywhere from 700 to 1,000 in a weekend tactical course or less.
I was issued a 1911 in 1964 and my first issued military rifle was an M-1. M1, M14, M16. Seen em all. No telling how many rounds I have put down range
Why is that such an important question?
I would not worry too much about the Fed's wasting your tax dollars with stupid purchasing procedures though. If Obama gets re elected he has two appts to the Supreme Court he will make. You can kiss the second amendment goodbye then. Lawyers are great with double speak and double think.

I'm not supporting the purchase, just pointing out that this isn't a good way to supply a blue helmet invasion or force people into FEMA camps. It may be stupid, but it's not scary.

As far as Barry goes, check the sig line.

Cavalry Doc
08-24-2012, 08:52
Sorry to disillusion you Doc but I have twenty years military service. Nothing you can teach me. We are comparing round counts not offensive operations.
I have already ordered a lot of ammo for this year. Since I no longer re load, I use Lucky Gunner and Natchez Shooting Supplies. Catch the sales. Couple of thousand rounds delivered to your door. Is this a great country or what? A lot of shooters I know use the aluminum blazers in the matches. Don't have to pick up the brass. We got lazy.
Here you want a real interesting conspiracy for a doc read this:
Amazon.com: Dr. Mary's Monkey: How the Unsolved Murder of a Doctor, a Secret Laboratory in New Orleans and Cancer-Causing Monkey Viruses are Linked to Lee Harvey ... Assassination and Emerging Global Epidemics (9780977795307): Edward T. Haslam, Jim Marrs: Books (http://www.amazon.com/Dr-Marys-Monkey-Cancer-Causing-Assassination/dp/0977795306)
Enjoyed conversing with you.

Don't forget to learn some skills for after the fight. People get hurt in those things.

The Viking
08-24-2012, 13:15
I'm not supporting the purchase, just pointing out that this isn't a good way to supply a blue helmet invasion or force people into FEMA camps. It may be stupid, but it's not scary.

As far as Barry goes, check the sig line.

What FEMA camps?
Well if I had put " Stupid Federal Purchasing Procedures" for the title no one would have been interested and I would not have had as much fun.

The Viking
08-24-2012, 13:16
Don't forget to learn some skills for after the fight. People get hurt in those things.

What fight? I won't get hurt. After all I am a backshooter. Remember, it you are in a fair fight your tactics suck.

Cavalry Doc
08-24-2012, 16:37
What FEMA camps?
Well if I had put " Stupid Federal Purchasing Procedures" for the title no one would have been interested and I would not have had as much fun.

Fair enough.

Cavalry Doc
08-24-2012, 16:38
What fight? I won't get hurt. After all I am a backshooter. Remember, it you are in a fair fight your tactics suck.

There is no such thing as a fair fight, but both sides can fight dirty.

Go ahead and get some urgent first aid training too. It's a nice round out to most knowledge tool kits.

ModGlock17
08-24-2012, 21:32
or having this as a backyard is "country"


http://i648.photobucket.com/albums/uu208/countrygun/IM002654.jpg




Countrygun, I really like that vista!

countrygun
08-25-2012, 00:34
Countrygun, I really like that vista!


This is some of the most photo friendly country anywhere.

Sunrise one morning

http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/ee518/CountryG/003-1.jpg




turn the other direction that evening for the sunset.

http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/ee518/CountryG/004-2.jpg

TheJ
08-29-2012, 09:04
Tom Gresham says there is nothing to be excited over with this. Does anyone actually think he is part of the grand conspiracy or even just too trusting of the federal agencies?

I think I'll save my foil hat for something more worth getting excited over.

The Fist Of Goodness
08-29-2012, 11:34
Tom Gresham says there is nothing to be excited over with this. Does anyone actually think he is part of the grand conspiracy or even just too trusting of the federal agencies?

I think I'll save my foil hat for something more worth getting excited over.

I did not know who Tom Gresham was, but I Googled him and found his GunTalk site. It looks pretty interesting. I will bookmark it and check it out when I can.

TheJ
08-29-2012, 12:45
I did not know who Tom Gresham was, but I Googled him and found his GunTalk site. It looks pretty interesting. I will bookmark it and check it out when I can.

I listen to him weekly for years. I normally download the podcast because I'm not always near a radio when his show airs. It's a great show IMHO. Hes been at it for almost 20 years. I highly reccomend it.