.357 mag or. 38Spl [Archive] - Glock Talk

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JEEPX
08-21-2012, 11:51
I need some advice from the collective.
I recently picked up a Smith Model 19 w/ a 2.5" barrel.


I do not know what type of self defense ammunition to use.

I have a Smith 586 6", Smith 686 6", Smith 686 + 4", and a Model 19 4". If I carry them on my property or put them on the night stand I use. 357 mag 158gr Gold Dots.

In the short barrel 642 and 442, I use 135gr +p Short Barrel Gold Dots.

The 2.5" Model 19 might be. 357 magnum, but it still has s short barrel.

Which of the two above loads would be best?
Will a .357 magnum load even expand out of a 2.5" barrel?


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9mm +p+
08-21-2012, 11:54
Try it with both,see which you are more comfortable with. A 158 out of a snubby may/may not expand, I'd suggest getting yourself some 125/357 goodness for home defense.

glock_19guy1983
08-21-2012, 12:14
Its gonna boil down to whether you can control the .357. A hit from a 38spl +p is better than a miss from a .357

fredj338
08-21-2012, 13:16
Regardless of bbl length, you always get more vel out of the 357mag vs 38sp+P, but you also get more blast & recoil. I like the 145grWSTHO in my shub 357mags. Well above any 38sp+P & recoil & blast are manageable. IF I do go 38sp+P, it's almost always the 158grLHPSWC, always expands or deforms some.

JEEPX
08-21-2012, 13:35
Fred,

So in a revolver such as the 2.5" Model 19, the ability to use. 357 magnum is down graded because of noise and blast.

Do the. 357 mag load's even expand out of a 2.5" barrel?

Also

Can you tell me what the acronym after 145gr stands for.

Sorry for the questions. This is my first short barrel. 357 magnum.

My concern is this. If am better off with .38spl from the short barrel, then I wasted my money. If this is the case, I would sell it and find a 3rd Issue Colt DS.





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robhic
08-21-2012, 16:33
In his book "The Snubby Revolver" by Ben Lovette (recommended by Mas Ayoob) he said his favorite load for short barrel guns was a 110gr or 124gr LEAD-NOSED HP +P bullet in .38spl. He says the FBI and other agencies using the short barrel guns found that to be the best all-round load.

Kingarthurhk
08-21-2012, 17:44
With a snubby revolver you might as well use .38 +p the end result is probably the same.

Warp
08-21-2012, 18:08
With a snubby revolver you might as well use .38 +p the end result is probably the same.

Well...

Regardless of bbl length, you always get more vel out of the 357mag vs 38sp+P, but you also get more blast & recoil.

fredj is correct. You will absolutely get more velocity out of the same bullet weight with .357 vs .38+P.

It's a matter of the terminal ballistic effect vs the increased muzzle flash and blast

Berto
08-21-2012, 18:30
There are lots of .357 loads that will work fine in the 2.5" bbl.

A nice compromise might be the Rem Golden Saber 125gr .357 load, it's loaded to medium velocity (approx 1150fps) and uses a good jhp design that will penetrate and expand fine, without the extra boom and recoil.
The .38sp 135gr Gold Dot would also be great and will reload easier with the shorter brass.

JEEPX
08-21-2012, 18:43
I really do appreciate the help.

Berto,

The 125gr load will not cause damage to the K frame?

I have always been told not to use the 125gr loads in K frames
I do realize that I will not be putting a steady diet of them through the 19. Just enough to get comfortable with the load.

I guess fear of messing my revolvers, is why I have always used 158gr loads in my K frames.


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Warp
08-21-2012, 19:41
I really do appreciate the help.

Berto,

The 125gr load will not cause damage to the K frame?

I have always been told not to use the 125gr loads in K frames
I do realize that I will not be putting a steady diet of them through the 19. Just enough to get comfortable with the load.

I guess fear of messing my revolvers, is why I have always used 158gr loads in my K frames.


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People say excessive use of light/fast loads in a K-frame can lead to cutting of the top strap. I think the saying goes "If your revolver is a Ruger, don't worry about it". If you don't use a lot of them you should be okay.

countrygun
08-21-2012, 20:11
People say excessive use of light/fast loads in a K-frame can lead to cutting of the top strap. I think the saying goes "If your revolver is a Ruger, don't worry about it". If you don't use a lot of them you should be okay.

Thet problem is a bit more complicated than that (light bullet magnum loads in a "K" frame) but it generally jams up a thread when brought up. Thanfully, for me, I can say that I agree with Fred on the 158gn LSWCHP +P. No problems for the gun and the funny thing, to me, is that those "simple" bullets are not too hard to please when it comes to what will make them expand.

Tiro Fijo
08-21-2012, 22:23
In his book "The Snubby Revolver" by Ben Lovette (recommended by Mas Ayoob) he said his favorite load for short barrel guns was a 110gr or 124gr LEAD-NOSED HP +P bullet in .38spl. He says the FBI and other agencies using the short barrel guns found that to be the best all-round load.


It's actually Ed Lovette and he mentioned this round as when it was first introduced in 1972 they simply had no better at that time. Today I think we do: the Speer 135 gr. +p Gold Dot.

janice6
08-21-2012, 22:33
Hornady rates my .357 Mag 125fr. FTX at 1200 fps from a 2" barrel.

http://www.hornady.com/store/357-Mag-125-gr-Critical-Defense/

Warp
08-21-2012, 22:56
It's actually Ed Lovette and he mentioned this round as when it was first introduced in 1972 they simply had no better at that time. Today I think we do: the Speer 135 gr. +p Gold Dot.

These days I'm partial to the Buffalo Bore 158gr LSWCHP +P, but that Gold Dot round is pretty darn good. So good I ordered a case of 500 last year.

fredj338
08-21-2012, 23:14
With a snubby revolver you might as well use .38 +p the end result is probably the same.

Not even close, not by 250fps min. Any decent 125gr JHP in a 357mag will still be clocking 1250fps+ in a 2 1/2" snub. The 145gr Win Silver Tip HP does 1175fps in my M66, You can't sniff that w/ a 38sp+P in any bullet wt in a 6" gun!
SO yes, even in short bbls, the 357mag is a better round than any 38sp+P. You will pay for it in blast & recoil, but the horse power is there if you can handle it. Today, you are probably better off w/ a midsize 357sig. Smaller gun, more ammo & better balistics w/ less recoil. I love the 357mag snubby, but they are not the best tool for most CCW IMO.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/357mags.jpg

officialaccount
08-22-2012, 01:12
The best load the one that works best for you. With what do you get the best grouping with at the range? Use that.

JEEPX
08-22-2012, 05:59
I want to say Thank-you for the help.

I think I am going to try the Remington .357 mag 125gr Golden Sabres.
I think this will be a good starting point.

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BuzznRose
08-22-2012, 06:07
I want to say Thank-you for the help.

I think I am going to try the Remington .357 mag 125gr Golden Sabres.
I think this will be a good starting point.

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I agree the golden sabers are a good choice. The article below has good info:

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm


"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway."
-- John Wayne

robhic
08-22-2012, 09:11
It's actually Ed Lovette and he mentioned this round as when it was first introduced in 1972 they simply had no better at that time. Today I think we do: the Speer 135 gr. +p Gold Dot.

Thank you, I stand corrected. :supergrin: I don't know where I got Ben from. I just finished reading the book by ED LOVETTE!

And very good book it is.

Glockbuster
08-22-2012, 11:06
If its a model 19 use 357 magnum all the way, even with your short barrel. A decent 357 magnum out of that revolver will recoil about the same as a 38 special +P out of a J frame so what´s the problem ?

Some people claim the flame cutting from the 125 gr. magnum loads damage the forcing cone and bye bye the barrel, but that would be after thousands of rounds. Yet others who have fired thousands of 125 gr. Magnum rounds into vintage model 19´s claim flame cutting damaging the forcing cone is BS.

BTW, FWIW my 2.5 inch model 66 expands 158 gr. Remington SJHP just fine.

countrygun
08-22-2012, 12:07
If its a model 19 use 357 magnum all the way, even with your short barrel. A decent 357 magnum out of that revolver will recoil about the same as a 38 special +P out of a J frame so what´s the problem ?

Some people claim the flame cutting from the 125 gr. magnum loads damage the forcing cone and bye bye the barrel, but that would be after thousands of rounds. Yet others who have fired thousands of 125 gr. Magnum rounds into vintage model 19´s claim flame cutting damaging the forcing cone is BS.

BTW, FWIW my 2.5 inch model 66 expands 158 gr. Remington SJHP just fine.



For a pretty clear explanation take a look at the article by well repsected writer, the late Stephen Camp


Stephen Camp


http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Smith%20&%20Wesson%20J,%20K,%20L%20and%20N-frame%20Comparisons.htm (http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Smith%20&%20Wesson%20J,%20K,%20L%20and%20N-frame%20Comparisons.htm)

The 125 gn bullets do not hae the momentum of the 158s and "pause" in the forcing cone rather than smoothly transition, thereby increasing the pressuer on the forcing cone and the flame cutting effects. that along with the flat cut on the K frame barrel is the culprit.

If you doubt this and you reload and have a .357, it is rather simple to demonstrate.

Get a loading manual out and some 125 and 158 gn bullets.

Find a single powder charge of, say 2400 that will work for both a 125 and 158 gn load. The end velocity is NOT important, the point is to have the same amount of powder behind each bullet.

Now have someone fire both loads in a dark range and observe the flash around the barrel/cylinder gap.

Glockbuster
08-22-2012, 12:34
For a pretty clear explanation take a look at the article by well repsected writer, the late Stephen Camp


Stephen Camp


http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Smith%20&%20Wesson%20J,%20K,%20L%20and%20N-frame%20Comparisons.htm (http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Smith%20&%20Wesson%20J,%20K,%20L%20and%20N-frame%20Comparisons.htm)

The 125 gn bullets do not hae the momentum of the 158s and "pause" in the forcing cone rather than smoothly transition, thereby increasing the pressuer on the forcing cone and the flame cutting effects. that along with the flat cut on the K frame barrel is the culprit.

If you doubt this and you reload and have a .357, it is rather simple to demonstrate.

Get a loading manual out and some 125 and 158 gn bullets.

Find a single powder charge of, say 2400 that will work for both a 125 and 158 gn load. The end velocity is NOT important, the point is to have the same amount of powder behind each bullet.

Now have someone fire both loads in a dark range and observe the flash around the barrel/cylinder gap.

Countrygun, that is an excellent link and one worthwhile to quote again.

No doubt, it does happen.

Here is an opinion by Butch Kent, note that he never argues with the fact, only that it does not affect the way he uses his model 19.

http://www.gunblast.com/Butch_MagnumLoads.htm

I have two nice blue 6" 19´s-- a 19-3 and a 19-4. I treasure these revolvers as there are no more barrels available were something to happen. I must say I stay away from 125 grain loads and shoot mostly 158 grain magnums and 158 grain LSWHP´s in it.

countrygun
08-22-2012, 13:05
Countrygun, that is an excellent link and one worthwhile to quote again.

No doubt, it does happen.

Here is an opinion by Butch Kent, note that he never argues with the fact, only that it does not affect the way he uses his model 19.

http://www.gunblast.com/Butch_MagnumLoads.htm

I have two nice blue 6" 19´s-- a 19-3 and a 19-4. I treasure these revolvers as there are no more barrels available were something to happen. I must say I stay away from 125 grain loads and shoot mostly 158 grain magnums and 158 grain LSWHP´s in it.


I've always applied a little bit I know about steel itself to the problem.

A bar of steel is not as homogeneous as it appears. From making knives for years I can say that the slightest change in temperature (for instance) can cause more of one or another element to "congregate" in a spot on the steel. this may make a piece stronger or weaker in a given spot.

I think that the "K" frame is on the very edge of being able to handle the 125 loads if everything is "perfect" but it doesn't take more than the slightest variance to cause failure. remember too that the 125 gn loads are not really "hotter" they operate at the same SAAMI specs for pressure as the 158 grainers.

Glockbuster
08-22-2012, 15:09
I've always applied a little bit I know about steel itself to the problem.

A bar of steel is not as homogeneous as it appears. From making knives for years I can say that the slightest change in temperature (for instance) can cause more of one or another element to "congregate" in a spot on the steel. this may make a piece stronger or weaker in a given spot.

I think that the "K" frame is on the very edge of being able to handle the 125 loads if everything is "perfect" but it doesn't take more than the slightest variance to cause failure. remember too that the 125 gn loads are not really "hotter" they operate at the same SAAMI specs for pressure as the 158 grainers.

Exactly, plus the heat treatment to harden the carbon steel can also differ though I think the tempering process is really a non issue with all steel pieces being hardened to about the same degree. So if you are lucky nothing might happen but best be safe. I really recommend Butch´s article it explains very clearly what happens with heat, powder, the bullet jump etc. very clearly and really makes me stay away from 125 grain in hot loadings.

countrygun
08-22-2012, 15:38
Exactly, plus the heat treatment to harden the carbon steel can also differ though I think the tempering process is really a non issue with all steel pieces being hardened to about the same degree. So if you are lucky nothing might happen but best be safe. I really recommend Butch´s article it explains very clearly what happens with heat, powder, the bullet jump etc. very clearly and really makes me stay away from 125 grain in hot loadings.

Heck even in the manufacture of that basic steel barstock that the gunmaker has no control over there can be variants.

It is kind of "skating on the edge" to use the 125s heavily. I wouldn't be afraid of a catastrophic failure at all, but my guns are good to me I like to be good to them. I use the heavier bullets and practice placement. Not that I'm saying folks that use 125s don't, but I am more confident that I am practicing with a gun that is going to be with me a long time.

Glockbuster
08-22-2012, 15:49
Heck even in the manufacture of that basic steel barstock that the gunmaker has no control over there can be variants.

It is kind of "skating on the edge" to use the 125s heavily. I wouldn't be afraid of a catastrophic failure at all, but my guns are good to me I like to be good to them. I use the heavier bullets and practice placement. Not that I'm saying folks that use 125s don't, but I am more confident that I am practicing with a gun that is going to be with me a long time.

And it should be stressed that it is the hot load itself and the projectile velocity, not the pressure of the round, that is the real enemy here. Full house 125 grain loads will put a tremendous amount of heat right in the cylinder-forcing cone area, more than any other load in 357 magnum.

Let me ask you a question you may know this better, have you heard of these issues of forcing cone damage more in stainless steel K frames or the blued or nickel revolvers ?

Because, truthfully I have READ more of it on the high carbon guns. Now they are a bit tougher than their stainless steel versions because of the increased carbon content do you think this matters ?

countrygun
08-22-2012, 16:24
And it should be stressed that it is the hot load itself and the projectile velocity, not the pressure of the round, that is the real enemy here. Full house 125 grain loads will put a tremendous amount of heat right in the cylinder-forcing cone area, more than any other load in 357 magnum.

Let me ask you a question you may know this better, have you heard of these issues of forcing cone damage more in stainless steel K frames or the blued or nickel revolvers ?

Because, truthfully I have READ more of it on the high carbon guns. Now they are a bit tougher than their stainless steel versions because of the increased carbon content do you think this matters ?

The difference isn't "increased carbon" in blued steel guns, it is (basically) more nickle in the Stainless guns.

I can say that I don't work stainless, in the more common knife grades, because it "gums up belts and grinders primarily, and the more complicated varieties are a pain to temper. But, because I like to forge stainless is about useless to me. it has a very narrow temperature range in which it is "mallable" under the hammer. It can be done but it is well, more of a "stunt". some specialty stainless has a braoder range but is still hard on the abrasive equipment.


Factory knives that are marked "Forged stanless" are generally done the same as carbon so marked. The bars are heated to a precise temperature and slammed in a die, hence they are, technically, "forged".


As a "clue". many of the earliest stainless autos suffered from "galling" when the slides and frames were made of the same steel and hardened the same. the nickle wanted to adhere. (to make it real simple). This property may account for less problems in the stainless Ks.

It is odd at first blush, that stainless should be "tougher" but you have to look at the definitions and also at the tempering/hardening temps. Stainless hardens differently and is a bit moer forgiving of the stresses we are talking about in the K frames.


Sorry for the long winded answer, but I actually like to throw a little reasoning in rather than just "cuz I said so"

Redstate
08-22-2012, 18:54
Interesting Thread.

malleable
08-22-2012, 20:42
Interesting Thread.

tagged to test before calling BS (it rhymes)