Kimber Custom Target II MIM'd parts [Archive] - Glock Talk

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MinervaDoe
08-21-2012, 16:02
I just ordered a Kimber Custom Target II and I've heard that it's internal parts are of a lower quality than they used to be.

I intend to put 500 rounds through the gun as it is.

Then, I'll probably swap out the sear, the connector, the slide release, and the mainspring housing for some harder parts.

What do you guys think? :tempted:

Is this a waste of time and money?

If it ain't broke don't fix it?

Are there any other parts that you would swap?

faawrenchbndr
08-21-2012, 16:32
If it ain't broke,.....don't fix it.

glock2740
08-21-2012, 17:07
I intend to put 500 rounds through the gun as it is.

Then, I'll probably swap out the sear, the connector, the slide release, and the mainspring housing for some harder parts.

What do you guys think? :tempted:

Is this a waste of time and money?

If it ain't broke don't fix it?


If you don't have any ammo or magazine related issues after 500 rounds, there's really nothing to do to it unless you want to customize/upgrade it. :dunno:

Ranger45
08-21-2012, 17:15
If it ain't broke,.....don't fix it.

This. Been shooting my Kimber TLE II for five years. Round count has to be in the thousands by now (didn't keep track the first year I had the pistol.) Haven't fixed or replaced anything on it because nothing's needed fixin' or replacin'.

clancy
08-21-2012, 18:41
Why would you buy a pistol that you already feels needs be "fixed"?

glock_19guy1983
08-21-2012, 18:58
Replace them when they break.

MinervaDoe
08-22-2012, 09:51
Thanks for the replies. Keep 'em comin'...

Been shooting my Kimber TLE II for five years. Round count has to be in the thousands by now (didn't keep track the first year I had the pistol.) Haven't fixed or replaced anything on it because nothing's needed fixin' or replacin'.
This is reassuring. I've heard enough people say this, that I was willing to try a Kimber.

Replace them when they break.
This is probably good advice.

If it ain't broke,.....don't fix it.
Always good advice.


Why would you buy a pistol that you already feels needs be "fixed"?
I would have bought either a Range Officer or an STI, but neither one is California "approved." The Kimber has a match grade barrel, bushing, frame, and slide. I thought I'd see if it can outshoot my Springfield 1911.

If you don't have any ammo or magazine related issues after 500 rounds, there's really nothing to do to it unless you want to customize/upgrade it. :dunno:

That's more or less what I'm thinking.

Thanks gusy. I'm obviously using the forum as a sounding board. I've had my Springfield Armory OEM 1911 since 1987. It's been very reliable. Recently, I put a Wilson bombproof sear and connector into it (as well as a Bar-Sto barrel). My gunsmith tested the Rockwell hardness of the wilson parts at 58, and my old Springfield parts at 52. Meanwhile, there was a broken Kimber sear on his press that tested at 14 :wow:.
It got me to thinking.... since I have my old Springfield Sear and connector, why not buy a few more parts and put them in the Kimber.

MinervaDoe
08-25-2012, 14:12
Thanks for your input guys. I've decided to leave well enough alone.

Here's a few threads I dug up on the Internet.
My take aways:

1) A lot of the comments I read state that MIM parts are just fine.
2) It's about $300 worth of parts.
3) MIM part breakages are rare and typically occur during break in. If they make it through this period, they usually last as long as a tool steel part.
4) Kimber's MIM quality issues were a result of the policies of their CEO, (Cohen) who has moved on to SIG.


MIM parts have decent longevity
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=241389

Springfield, Colt, and S&W use MIM parts in a number of their 1911s
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-146381.html

Wilson Combat uses them in some of the their guns. There is a quote in this thread where a representative states that tool steel parts are overkill.
http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/general-firearm-discussion/125106-what-wilson-combat-thinks-mim-parts-1911s.html

But, if someone wants to replace the parts, here is a solid sounding recommendation:

Replacing the MIM parts is easy. Buy a "drop in" trigger kit (sear, hammer and disconnector) from Cylinder & Slide (I have two of their Tactical II kits, one on a Springfield another on a Caspian/Colt, both dropped in and yielded a little over 4.5 pound trigger pulls), fit a new thumb safety (I've used Ed Brown parts, which are partially machined investment cast, but my next one will be EGW machined from bar stock), grab a slide stop from EGW, Wilson or Cylinder & Slide (forged or machined from bar stock), a firing pin stop from EGW, a magazine catch/release from EGW and a new ejector.

You probably also want to replace the extractor as well, again, the EGW heavy duty one is really nice (I have one in that Caspian/Colt).

You could do this in stages, but you're looking at $300 in parts, installation would be extra. Most of the parts are going to drop in without modification. The new thumb safety will need to be fitted to the new sear. There are good directions, but it's a critical fit. I messed up two before I got the hang of it.

As for suppliers, be careful, many use MIM. Avoid McCormick, as they are all MIM. EGW is a safe bet, they don't do MIM at all. Some Ed Brown parts are investment cast, though Chuck Rogers swears by them (there is an explanation stickied in the gunsmithing section).

As for me and MIM, well, I am not a fan, but I'm not a eradicate MIM just because it's MIM either. Three out of five of my 1911s have MIM ignition components, and both my SW1911 and Springfield WWII GI have a few thousand rounds through them without incident. The Smith & Wesson even has a nice trigger pull at a hair over five pounds.
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=241389


Anyway, I handled the gun while I filled out the paperwork to start my 10 day waiting period. It's got a much tighter frame to slide fit than my Springfield and I'm looking forward to firing it.

SauerChoi
08-25-2012, 15:45
Every time I see a thread about MIM parts it always makes me ask. Who actually had an issue with MIM parts breaking in their gun? I understand that it may not be the same quality as before but always wondered if anyone had a stoppage due to a MIM part breaking.

glock_19guy1983
08-25-2012, 15:48
Every time I see a thread about MIM parts it always makes me ask. Who actually had an issue with MIM parts breaking in their gun? I understand that it may not be the same quality as before but always wondered if anyone had a stoppage due to a MIM part breaking.

They happen, but are rare. Ive got ten years and 20k rnds into my TLE with no MIM problems. If I were going to change a part out for aesthetic reasons I would go with forged, but generally MIM problems will surface in very few shots therefore after the break in period If nothings broken then I dont worry with it.

MD357
08-25-2012, 16:24
If you are going to carry it.... I would switch out several parts and get rid of the Series II BS. Otherwise, leave it alone. I will say that you WILL get a distinct trigger if you get a C&S kit, one that is a step above stock.

FWIW about the Wilson using them on their guns. They were speaking of the 1996A2 which was a "entry" level gun they build a LOOOOOONG time ago. You don't see that stuff in their guns now.

Jason D
08-25-2012, 17:08
My early Target model still has the original parts in it.
Come to think of it, they all do.

MinervaDoe
08-25-2012, 17:52
... I will say that you WILL get a distinct trigger if you get a C&S kit, one that is a step above stock.

Good information:


CS0104 - C&S 1911 45 ACP Enhancement Kit Series 80 Blue
Our Billet Carbon Steel 1911 Series 80 Enhancement Kit will replace your MIM or cast hammer, sear, disconnector, firing pin stop, and slide stop with much stronger parts, greatly reducing the chance of breakage. These parts are the most critical parts in your 1911. Life time warranty against breakage to the original purchaser on unmodified parts.
Price:
$179.95


http://www.cylinder-slide.com/index.php?app=ccp0&ns=prodshow&ref=CS0104


Charles E. Petty, O[/COLOR]riginally Published in American Handguns Magazine Sept/Oct 2005"]
Not too long ago I was very reluctant to talk about anything involving trigger jobs because anything having to do with cutting sears and hammers is a bad thing for the untrained. Two things changed that, the UPS decision to require handguns to be shipped by air to prevent their employees from stealing them and the vast improvements made possible in the manufacture of precision parts by CNC or wire EDM methods. Overnight shipping charges both ways make it tough to send a gun to a gunsmith for a simple trigger job.
Cylinder and Slide Shop now offers a complete kit, including all the parts for a 1911 trigger. If you know how to detail-strip the pistol you can exchange old parts for new. It contains a hammer, sear, disconnector, sear spring and mainspring. All you have to do is take the hammer strut off your old hammer and put it on the new one.
Cylinder and Slide offers a couple of variations and we elected to install their Ultra Light 3.5 lb. trigger pull set in a new S&W 1911. The Lyman trigger pull gauge showed a 5 lb 3 oz. average for five consecutive weights for the new gun. First I installed everything except the mainspring and recorded a 3 lb. 15 oz. average. Swapping the mainspring yielded an average of 3 lb. 13 oz. Not quite 3.5 lbs. but certainly close and it would have probably taken only a little bending of the sear spring to get there.

The parts are beautifully polished and need no additional work. The sear, hammer and disconnector all show the marks from a Rockwell hardness tester and there is a certificate with the actual test values recorded. Ours were about 52 Rock­well: hard enough to last a long time but not so hard as to be brittle.
On the pistol the trigger was crisp and creep-less. All the safeties worked as they should and considerable shooting revealed no changes or problems. But if anything isn't just right call, they can help.


http://www.cylinder-slide.com/dropins.shtml

Rinspeed
08-26-2012, 07:56
FWIW about the Wilson using them on their guns. They were speaking of the 1996A2 which was a "entry" level gun they build a LOOOOOONG time ago. You don't see that stuff in their guns now.




The only reason they stopped using them is because people were calling up *****ing their $1800 pistol had MIM parts in it. Before Kimber came along nobody knew what MIM parts were.

glock_19guy1983
08-26-2012, 08:34
The only reason they stopped using them is because people were calling up *****ing their $1800 pistol had MIM parts in it. Before Kimber came along nobody knew what MIM parts were.

Wonder how many people ***** about the MIM parts in their $50k car or truck?

MD357
08-26-2012, 08:45
Wonder how many people ***** about the MIM parts in their $50k car or truck?

A MIM part in the door of a Lexus just isn't the same as a MIM part of the ignition of a 1911.

cciman
08-26-2012, 10:20
There is realistic risk, then there is just fear and anal obsession. Significance and meaning gets lost in the debate.

I don't think the MIM parts controversy has proven itself in any clear direction-- thus my conclusion is that because there is no direction, then there is no significance.

Obviously, competitors will try to sell you products and services, preying on this over obsession. Like Lexus, Kimber is very aware of their standings in their market, and very unlikely to risk reputation on a part that will not hold up as intended.

faawrenchbndr
08-26-2012, 10:28
I've installed $350k+ aircraft parts.

No one biOtches abou cast frames & slides. A properly made MIM
part is more structurally sound than a properly made cast part.

cciman
08-26-2012, 10:31
Not to mention "Polymer"...

GASP :wow: blasphemy

klmmicro
08-26-2012, 10:33
Having worked with and around firearms for a few decades, I have not seen any significant proof that MIM is any more likely to fail than bar stock. The hyper concern has been a great point of debate, but that seems to be about the worth of it.

I have a Kimber Custom II that has a few thousand rounds through it. I stripped it down completely at 500 rounds. Nothing out of the ordinary, all parts MIM or otherwise working and worn just fine. Again, stripped a few months ago and still nothing to report out of the ordinary. The only part I have HAD to change in the recoil spring and that was at the recommendation of Kimber, not because of a problem.

The range I worked at was a Kimber master dealer and we had a number of models for rent. I would say about 20 Kimber's of different specs available. We had a couple of issues that were related to the small pin for releasing the firing pin block. The "Death Grip" was required to make them actually fire. Our armorer fixed one (we wanted to see if he could do it), the other was covered by Kimber.

Show me some real data that shows the constant failure of MIM parts in Kimber, Colt or Springfield pistols compared to bar stock parts please.

MD357
08-26-2012, 17:43
I've installed $350k+ aircraft parts.

No one biOtches abou cast frames & slides. A properly made MIM
part is more structurally sound than a properly made cast part.

This doesn't mean that all MIM is the same. I would wager the obvious that the aerospace industry has a significantly higher QC and overall testing than Kimber. Same thing goes for the medical community by my experience.

Besides, as much as Kimber charges for their guns today, they could stand to upgrade their parts. Especially since I just saw a Gold Combat RL II or whatever it is go for over $2000 on buds not too long ago.

Berto
08-26-2012, 17:46
Attrition....replace them if or when they break.
I've heard of folks getting 60K through their Kimbers before replacing anything.
I'm at just over 2K in my Cust II...not worrying.

NEOH212
08-26-2012, 20:06
Although I'm not really a fan of MIM parts, I would be willing to bet the ones in that Kimber will last a lot longer than you think.

There is good MIM and bad MIM. Yes, Kimber has had a few bad parts in the past but heck, what company hasn't?

I'll say what another poster said. If it ain't broke, then don't bother fussing with it.

:wavey:

Berto
08-26-2012, 20:16
How about ball joints? Are they important?

G schütze
10-07-2012, 11:18
I just ordered a Kimber Custom Target II and I've heard that it's internal parts are of a lower quality than they used to be.

I intend to put 500 rounds through the gun as it is.

Then, I'll probably swap out the sear, the connector, the slide release, and the mainspring housing for some harder parts.

What do you guys think? :tempted:

Is this a waste of time and money?

If it ain't broke don't fix it?

Are there any other parts that you would swap?


Kimber has always used low quality MIM parts. You would have been better off buy purchasing a 1911 that is quality to begin with. OBTW, there is nothing "custom" about your custom target II.

G schütze
10-07-2012, 11:21
Thanks for the replies. Keep 'em comin'...


This is reassuring. I've heard enough people say this, that I was willing to try a Kimber.


This is probably good advice.


Always good advice.



I would have bought either a Range Officer or an STI, but neither one is California "approved." The Kimber has a match grade barrel, bushing, frame, and slide. I thought I'd see if it can outshoot my Springfield 1911.



That's more or less what I'm thinking.

Thanks gusy. I'm obviously using the forum as a sounding board. I've had my Springfield Armory OEM 1911 since 1987. It's been very reliable. Recently, I put a Wilson bombproof sear and connector into it (as well as a Bar-Sto barrel). My gunsmith tested the Rockwell hardness of the wilson parts at 58, and my old Springfield parts at 52. Meanwhile, there was a broken Kimber sear on his press that tested at 14 :wow:.
It got me to thinking.... since I have my old Springfield Sear and connector, why not buy a few more parts and put them in the Kimber.


The only things match grade on your Kimber are the stamp on your barrel and the type in the advertising saying that it is. :rofl:

G schütze
10-07-2012, 11:26
I've installed $350k+ aircraft parts.

No one biOtches abou cast frames & slides. A properly made MIM
part is more structurally sound than a properly made cast part.


I love my Pratt MIM turbine blades. The problem is that Kimber's MIM is not quality MIM. Hence the name MIMber.

MinervaDoe
10-07-2012, 22:51
The only things match grade on your Kimber are the stamp on your barrel and the type in the advertising saying that it is.
Yeah, I know. Take a look at the list of 1911s that can be sold in California. My first choices would have been an STI, or a Range Officer, but neither is sold here.


OBTW, there is nothing "custom" about your custom target II.

I never thought it was custom. I can only imagine the groupthink at Kimber as the marketing guys came up with that name.

I've only put 200 rounds through it, with only one jam (using a specific aftermarket magazine and some anemic reloads which wouldn't cycle in my G21).
The accuracy is decent. The lack of any index points on the sights bugs me. The trigger feels smooth and drops clean.

All in all, it feels like a decent gun. But, I'd have no problem swapping some parts on it. A new set of sights seems like a swap I'd really like to do. I'll finish breaking it in first.

G schütze
10-07-2012, 23:29
Yeah, I know. Take a look at the list of 1911s that can be sold in California. My first choices would have been an STI, or a Range Officer, but neither is sold here.




I never thought it was custom. I can only imagine the groupthink at Kimber as the marketing guys came up with that name.

I've only put 200 rounds through it, with only one jam (using a specific aftermarket magazine and some anemic reloads which wouldn't cycle in my G21).
The accuracy is decent. The lack of any index points on the sights bugs me. The trigger feels smooth and drops clean.

All in all, it feels like a decent gun. But, I'd have no problem swapping some parts on it. A new set of sights seems like a swap I'd really like to do. I'll finish breaking it in first.

That sucks that you live in a communist state. Good luck with your Kimber. I personally wouldn't own one even if they were the only option in a 1911. I'd choose another type of gun if that was the case. I wouldn't give Kimber a penny of my money.

GVFlyer
10-08-2012, 06:48
I believe the issue that many of us have with metal injected molding parts (also know as powdered metal or sintered metal parts) is not the frequency of their breakage, but the mechanism by which they break. Tool steel parts tend to "work" (to a greater of lessor degree depending on hardness) before they break, where MIM parts break instantly with no warning of impending failure.

okie
10-08-2012, 09:00
I don't think it would wise to take out the firing pin block safety. If you do and you ever have to defend your self, that pistol will be taken from you temporarily and gone over with a fine tooth comb, when they see that the safety has been removed they may use that against you in court:wavey:

MD357
10-08-2012, 10:23
I don't think it would wise to take out the firing pin block safety. If you do and you ever have to defend your self, that pistol will be taken from you temporarily and gone over with a fine tooth comb, when they see that the safety has been removed they may use that against you in court:wavey:

Can you cite a case where this happened?

MinervaDoe
10-08-2012, 12:38
I don't think it would wise to take out the firing pin block safety. If you do and you ever have to defend your self, that pistol will be taken from you temporarily and gone over with a fine tooth comb, when they see that the safety has been removed they may use that against you in court:wavey:
I don't remember anybody mentioning that. :dunno:

silversport
10-09-2012, 04:31
attorneys might bring up ANYthing to get a foot hold but if the shoot was good, I wouldn't be so concerned with the delivery system...

Bill

okie
10-09-2012, 07:12
Can you cite a case where this happened?

I haven't heard of any cases, but I was going to take those parts out of the Kimber I owned and that's what I was told by the gun smith:supergrin:

tim12232
10-09-2012, 08:50
Yeah, I know. Take a look at the list of 1911s that can be sold in California. My first choices would have been an STI, or a Range Officer, but neither is sold here.





Having lived in CA, I can tell you that you have more options. I would rather buy a used Dan Wesson then a new Kimber. I wont own another just based on my own experience with them a number of years ago, when they switched to the external extractor. My TLE-RL was sent back twice before I dumped it for half of what I paid. Guns only have to be on the roster for "new sales".

MD357
10-09-2012, 11:17
I haven't heard of any cases, but I was going to take those parts out of the Kimber I owned and that's what I was told by the gun smith:supergrin:

FWIW, it's more internet lore than anything. Sounds like he just didn't want to do it. :cool:

fasteddie565
10-18-2012, 21:45
FWIW, it's more internet lore than anything. Sounds like he just didn't want to do it. :cool:

I agree.

Your lawyer can say I am unsafe be removing it and mine can say I was trying to ensure accuracy to prevent stray shots or some other lawyereze.

1911Tuner
10-19-2012, 03:19
No one biOtches abou cast frames & slides.

Oh, I will. While a good cast frame is neither here nor there, the slide is a different matter. Everybody worries too much about the frame and not enough about the parts that really catch hell...the slide and the upper barrel lugs. The slide and barrel assembly is the "gun." The frame is little more than the gun mount.

As far as MIM goes, it can be quite good...or it can be worse than junk. It depends on the vendor...what the material is and how closely the adherence to proper technique and QA is held.

I have a pair of early 1991A1 Colts that I bought strictly for range beater duty. The pair is approaching 400,000 rounds, about evenly split. One is still functioning on the original MIM sear and disconnect. The other, on the original sear. I replaced the disconnect during the 75,000 round refitting...not because it broke or malfunctioned...but just because it was looking a little worn and I wanted to nip any potential problems in the bud.

The problem with MIM is that...barring an obvious defect...it's hard to tell if it's good or bad. It generally works fine right up to the point that it fails. Generally, a bad MIM part will fail early. If an MIM part survives a thousand cycles, it'll likely hold up for 50,000.