Why no love for 9mm? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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officialaccount
08-21-2012, 21:56
I have heard a lot of praise for the 9mm caliber but I have also heard a lot against it. Mainly I hear the old bigger is better which I disagree with since a headshot with a .22lr will kill. I'm basically curious if there are any good examples of a 9mm outwright failing as opposed to debating whether on should carry the biggest caliber possible or not.

WinterWizard
08-21-2012, 22:09
There are examples of every caliber, both handgun and rifle, failing. And I would imagine that most are exaggerated, distortions of the truth or outright fabrications. But of course, some are true.

By the by, not trying to be a jerk, but sometimes a .22lr to the head won't kill. Some headshots don't reach the brain, do enough damage to the brain to kill or simply ricochet off the skull, especially with weaker calibers like the .22lr. Look at the Gabrielle Giffords shooting. 9mm passed through her entire head (brain included) and she lives today. I will say I can't imagine it was a hollow point, but you get my point.

9mm +p+
08-21-2012, 22:21
I like and have faith in the 9mm, WITH the proper loads, no 147gr. garbage.

officialaccount
08-21-2012, 22:21
There are examples of every caliber, both handgun and rifle, failing. And I would imagine that most are exaggerated, distortions of the truth or outright fabrications. But of course, some are true.

By the by, not trying to be a jerk, but sometimes a .22lr to the head won't kill. Some headshots don't reach the brain, do enough damage to the brain to kill or simply ricochet off the skull, especially with weaker calibers like the .22lr. Look at the Gabrielle Giffords shooting. 9mm passed through her entire head (brain included) and she lives today. I will say I can't imagine it was a hollow point, but you get my point.

.22lr is lethal to the head because its so low oddly enough. It has enough force to enter the skull but not enough to exit. which sents it ping ponging around a persons brain. Richard kulklinsky a nortorus mafia hit said it was one of his favorite calibers.

I guess i could see non expanding 9mm leaving something to desired since its a higher velocity handgun round.

mattleegee
08-21-2012, 22:30
read around on here.... alot like and trust 9mm

i love my g19 and am buying another very soon.... two 9mm in the household

practice shooting instead of debating

fredj338
08-21-2012, 23:04
I have heard a lot of praise for the 9mm caliber but I have also heard a lot against it. Mainly I hear the old bigger is better which I disagree with since a headshot with a .22lr will kill. I'm basically curious if there are any good examples of a 9mm outwright failing as opposed to debating whether on should carry the biggest caliber possible or not.

Oh but yes you are such a perfect shot you can gaurantee a headshot on a moving target, low light & the target is shooting back. Yeah, right. If that were true, we would all just shoot 22lr & be done with it. I get so tired of hearing that one. Yes, bigger is always better if you can shoot it, same for rifles or handguns. It's been that way for decades. Good JHP make smaller bores better but also make bigger bores better still.:dunno:
There are 100s of shooting reports of 9mm failing, every other caliber for that matter too. Shot placement matters, but perfect shot placement is rarely achieved so bigger bullets making bugger holes is always perferable. A good 9mm JHP will make a bigger hole, but a good 45cal JHP makes still a bigger hole.:dunno:
BTW, your approach to terminal balistics is a bit juvenile & nieve. A 22lr is lethal to a head shot because it's the head, no other reason. Any round delivered to a persons head will end their life 99% of the time, regardless of caliber. I am sure some low life, unskilled shooter's choice of caliber means something to some people, but really, means nothing in terms of SD caliber or ammo choice.

GlockN
08-21-2012, 23:25
To me the 9mm is a wasted round. No potential and no room to grow.

larson1122
08-22-2012, 00:12
I trust and carry 9mm more than any other caliber. With a good self defense load, 9mm is plenty adequate for everyday CCW and duty use.

Yes, bigger is always better if you can shoot it, same for rifles or handguns. It's been that way for decades. Good JHP make smaller bores better but also make bigger bores better still.
There are 100s of shooting reports of 9mm failing, every other caliber for that matter too. Shot placement matters, but perfect shot placement is rarely achieved so bigger bullets making bugger holes is always perferable. A good 9mm JHP will make a bigger hole, but a good 45cal JHP makes still a bigger hole.
Any round delivered to a persons head will end their life 99% of the time, regardless of caliber.

Bring on the 9 vs 45 debate. Haven't had one of those around here for at least a couple of hours. :upeyes:

The OP's post you quoted specifically stated he wasn't interested in "debating whether one should carry the biggest caliber possible or not." Instead, he was asking for opinions on the 9mm.


Any round delivered to a persons head will end their life 99% of the time, regardless of caliber.

Care to share a source for this statistic? After all, we all know what they say about statistics.

cowboy1964
08-22-2012, 00:24
9mm is working just fine these days. This isn't the 80s.

A chunk of metal moving at 1200 feet per second is going to lay down some hurt.

officialaccount
08-22-2012, 00:38
Oh but yes you are such a perfect shot you can gaurantee a headshot on a moving target, low light & the target is shooting back. Yeah, right. If that were true, we would all just shoot 22lr & be done with it. I get so tired of hearing that one. Yes, bigger is always better if you can shoot it, same for rifles or handguns. It's been that way for decades. Good JHP make smaller bores better but also make bigger bores better still.:dunno:
There are 100s of shooting reports of 9mm failing, every other caliber for that matter too. Shot placement matters, but perfect shot placement is rarely achieved so bigger bullets making bugger holes is always perferable. A good 9mm JHP will make a bigger hole, but a good 45cal JHP makes still a bigger hole.:dunno:
BTW, your approach to terminal balistics is a bit juvenile & nieve. A 22lr is lethal to a head shot because it's the head, no other reason. Any round delivered to a persons head will end their life 99% of the time, regardless of caliber. I am sure some low life, unskilled shooter's choice of caliber means something to some people, but really, means nothing in terms of SD caliber or ammo choice.

Yeah if you read what i said i was quoting a hit a man on the .22lr, who would sneak up on people (he also said heart shots worked too but were messier).My carrying a glock 19 is not a " juvenile" approach to ballistics. not really sure where your attitude is coming from and is bit juvenile itself.

ricklee4570
08-22-2012, 02:30
Every handgun round at some time or another has failed miserably.

Not too long ago I watched an episode on t.v. where the bad guy shot a lady at point blank range in the head TWICE with a 45ACP 230 hardball. Both failed to penetrate and slid off the side of her head and she lived of course. She actually ran two blocks for help.

A few months ago there was the incident at the gas station where a man was being beaten. He pulled his 1911 and fired two 45ACP slugs into his attackers chest at about arms length distance. This guy alternated his bullets in the magazine, so he hit him with a 230 FMJ and a 230 Federal HST Hollowpoint. The guy ran to his car and drove himself to the hospital. He is in jail right now as we speak.

I am a 45 guy but not so disallusioned to think "they all fall to hardball" like some others are.

Wyocop
08-22-2012, 02:56
By the by, not trying to be a jerk, but sometimes a .22lr to the head won't kill.

A cop in my department investigated a suicide attempt where a .45 ACP to the head failed.

He used a 230 hardball and (I think) unintentionally angled the pistol at the moment he shot. Ball went in near the ear, traveled around the inside of his skull between the bone and brain, and blew out the top. :wow:

He survived it with no brain damage - well, no more than he already had. :crazy:

Knocked him colder than a wedge though! :ambulance:

NEOH212
08-22-2012, 03:02
I like and have faith in the 9mm, WITH the proper loads, no 147gr. garbage.

:thumbsup:

Wyocop
08-22-2012, 03:47
I like and have faith in the 9mm, WITH the proper loads, no 147gr. garbage.

Winchester Ranger 127gr +P+ when possible. Speer Gold Dot 124gr when not.

jbglock
08-22-2012, 04:19
No point in debating this as I'm sure anyone that is an leo has seen the 9mm fail and plenty of other rounds. I've personally seen a good head on shot with Winchester T series +p+ fail to penetrate a Rottweiler skull. Personally I've been a little uncomfortable with that specific load ever since. Trying to put down various animals with it hasn't helped this feeling.

I believe a person should use the most powerful load they are comfortable with. For me that is 40 caliber in a Glock. I'd love 45acp but in a Glock the gun I'd want hasn't been made. No 45GAP isn't the answer for me as I won't reload it and it isn't commonly available at reasonable pricing locally. My mother is very recoil shy and has very limited strenght because of a disability so for her I bought a Ruger LCR and put 110 grain wadcutters in it. Is it as powerful or a good a choice as a 9mm JHP? Of course not. For her it is the better choice because if she ever needs to use it I feel her making hits with the less powerful round is more important than misses with something more powerful.

In the end it comes down to what is best for an individual. If a person can only handle recoil from a 22lr and can make hits with it then it is the best choice.

ChrisJn
08-22-2012, 05:03
No point in debating this as I'm sure anyone that is an leo has seen the 9mm fail and plenty of other rounds. I've personally seen a good head on shot with Winchester T series +p+ fail to penetrate a Rottweiler skull. Personally I've been a little uncomfortable with that specific load ever since. Trying to put down various animals with it hasn't helped this feeling.

I believe a person should use the most powerful load they are comfortable with. For me that is 40 caliber in a Glock. I'd love 45acp but in a Glock the gun I'd want hasn't been made. No 45GAP isn't the answer for me as I won't reload it and it isn't commonly available at reasonable pricing locally. My mother is very recoil shy and has very limited strenght because of a disability so for her I bought a Ruger LCR and put 110 grain wadcutters in it. Is it as powerful or a good a choice as a 9mm JHP? Of course not. For her it is the better choice because if she ever needs to use it I feel her making hits with the less powerful round is more important than misses with something more powerful.

In the end it comes down to what is best for an individual. If a person can only handle recoil from a 22lr and can make hits with it then it is the best choice.

Very well put. At the end of the day it's a crap shoot. There are many documented cases in all calibers where the shot has been non-lethal. The one I quote is a former colleague of mine in London who shot a terrorist, who had just previously shot the Israeli Ambassador, twice in the head with .38Special. All it did was give him a headache, hospital overnight and jail next morning.

hoghunter82
08-22-2012, 05:41
I was watching reruns of the A-Team and people are constantly being shot with high powered rifle ammo and nobody gets killed. This leads me to believe that there is no perfect choice when it comes to ammo.





















Of course I'm kidding. I went with 9mm exclusively as I am comfortable with the Gold Dot 124g +P round. I do get some 45cal envy sometimes, but for the cost of ammo I can practice shot placement far more with 9mm.


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JEEPX
08-22-2012, 05:55
I love the 9mm. I have sold all my other calibers so that all my pistols are 9mm.

I currently have a 3rd Gen G17, G19 RTF2,
3rd Gen G26, Kahr CW9, Kahr CM9, and Sig P2226r.

The 9mm is fun to practice and compete with. For self defense, I have no trouble trusting it.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

OctoberRust
08-22-2012, 07:57
Oh but yes you are such a perfect shot you can gaurantee a headshot on a moving target, low light & the target is shooting back. Yeah, right. If that were true, we would all just shoot 22lr & be done with it. I get so tired of hearing that one. Yes, bigger is always better if you can shoot it, same for rifles or handguns. It's been that way for decades. Good JHP make smaller bores better but also make bigger bores better still.:dunno:
There are 100s of shooting reports of 9mm failing, every other caliber for that matter too. Shot placement matters, but perfect shot placement is rarely achieved so bigger bullets making bugger holes is always perferable. A good 9mm JHP will make a bigger hole, but a good 45cal JHP makes still a bigger hole.:dunno:
BTW, your approach to terminal balistics is a bit juvenile & nieve. A 22lr is lethal to a head shot because it's the head, no other reason. Any round delivered to a persons head will end their life 99% of the time, regardless of caliber. I am sure some low life, unskilled shooter's choice of caliber means something to some people, but really, means nothing in terms of SD caliber or ammo choice.


Yep. It all boils down to which is more important to you? less than 1/10th of an inch, or faster follow up shots and possibly more holes.

The Retired Sarge
08-22-2012, 08:13
9mm Parabellum. The world's military pistol caliber. More people have been stopped and killed with 9mm the world over than all the other pistol calibers combined and multiplied.

147gr garbage. Yes, the 9mm loading used most by the men and women who carry the badge, walk into harm's way daily, and actually receive and return live fire. Bill

KingWalleye
08-22-2012, 08:22
When guys like Larry Vickers, Ken Hackathorn and Rob Pincus carry 9mm I don't see any lack of love.

fredj338
08-22-2012, 09:23
I trust and carry 9mm more than any other caliber. With a good self defense load, 9mm is plenty adequate for everyday CCW and duty use.



Bring on the 9 vs 45 debate. Haven't had one of those around here for at least a couple of hours. :upeyes:

The OP's post you quoted specifically stated he wasn't interested in "debating whether one should carry the biggest caliber possible or not." Instead, he was asking for opinions on the 9mm.



Care to share a source for this statistic? After all, we all know what they say about statistics.

Well that is my opinion. As far as 99% headshot deaths, you think there is another number, really?:whistling:

fredj338
08-22-2012, 09:25
Yeah if you read what i said i was quoting a hit a man on the .22lr, who would sneak up on people (he also said heart shots worked too but were messier).My carrying a glock 19 is not a " juvenile" approach to ballistics. not really sure where your attitude is coming from and is bit juvenile itself.

The juvenile approach is even talking about headshot as some measuiing stick & bringing up some ridicuous statement abotu what a hitman thinks, really? Yeah, I'll call it juvenile, even though that was not what I said, your words.:dunno:
As usual the 9mm supporters come out in droves to hold up their choice. Look, I gave him my opinion, I believe that was what he was looking ofr was an opinion. Carry what you want, carry 2 xtra mags if it makes you feel comfy in your choice. When you ask for opinoins, don't get your panties all in a wad bewcuase you get one you don't like.

fredj338
08-22-2012, 09:32
Yep. It all boils down to which is more important to you? less than 1/10th of an inch, or faster follow up shots and possibly more holes.
Yeah yeah, yeah. I see the faster follow up shots all the time, mostly misses. Hosing a target to get hits is fine, as long as you ar carrying anough ammo to shoot that way. Poor training, JMO.
Gee, what about the states that only allow 10rd mags? Are you still relying on the 9mm in a full size gun? What about non JHP states, still sticking to the 9mm? Yes caliber/ammo & guns choice are always a bit more complicated than mag cap. If you can't shoot it, then don't carry it obviously, but if you can shoot a 9mm, you can shoot a 40 or 45, most of the time just as well. I do like the 9mm, just n certain platforms. It's perfect in the subcompacts & compacts that allow 24-7 CCW & you'll still get a decent ammo supply. My XD45C is the same size & wt as my G19, each only gets 10rds max here, I catually shoot the XD45C a bit better, easy choice for me.

fredj338
08-22-2012, 09:37
9mm Parabellum. The world's military pistol caliber. More people have been stopped and killed with 9mm the world over than all the other pistol calibers combined and multiplied.

147gr garbage. Yes, the 9mm loading used most by the men and women who carry the badge, walk into harm's way daily, and actually receive and return live fire. Bill

Another worn out statement. Who cares? It's not about killing it's about stopping. The 22lr has probably killed more people than the 44mag, does that make it a better SD roound? Geeze, really guys?:upeyes:

Cream Soda Kid
08-22-2012, 10:04
When guys like Larry Vickers, Ken Hackathorn and Rob Pincus carry 9mm I don't see any lack of love.
I agree, I believe that Dave Spaulding carries a G19 also.

9mm +p+
08-22-2012, 10:09
147gr garbage. Yes, the 9mm loading used most by the men and women who carry the badge, walk into harm's way daily, and actually receive and return live fire. Bill

Hmmm sarge, been LEO most of my life and have carried 9mm for yrs, including your 147. Have seen it fail on many occasions on stuff it shouldn't have. So spare me that's what everyone carries BS, they carry what they're told to, not what performs best:upeyes:

JW1178
08-22-2012, 10:37
This debate reminds me of how people in compact cars argue that their cars are as safe if not safer because it tested even better than a SUV and people have been injured and killed in crashes in SUV's so their car is just as safe.

It's this simple, the nine is fine, but bigger more powerful calibers do have an advantage and fail less often, but the margin isn't large at all, and the 9mm has advantages involving lower recoil and capacity.

Glockbuster
08-22-2012, 10:43
Even though I am a 357 sig. fan and donīt carry 9 mm., I donīt think there is anything not to love about 9 mm. Superb round and platform in a variety of ways, especially with modern ammo.

officialaccount
08-22-2012, 10:58
The juvenile approach is even talking about headshot as some measuiing stick & bringing up some ridicuous statement abotu what a hitman thinks, really? Yeah, I'll call it juvenile, even though that was not what I said, your words.:dunno:
As usual the 9mm supporters come out in droves to hold up their choice. Look, I gave him my opinion, I believe that was what he was looking ofr was an opinion. Carry what you want, carry 2 xtra mags if it makes you feel comfy in your choice. When you ask for opinoins, don't get your panties all in a wad bewcuase you get one you don't like.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-oqStkeuHtx0/TVzFYveoNyI/AAAAAAAAACg/z3xQxKIH0N0/s1600/129173884698031280.jpg

BuzznRose
08-22-2012, 11:08
No point in debating this as I'm sure anyone that is an leo has seen the 9mm fail and plenty of other rounds. I've personally seen a good head on shot with Winchester T series +p+ fail to penetrate a Rottweiler skull. Personally I've been a little uncomfortable with that specific load ever since. Trying to put down various animals with it hasn't helped this feeling.

I believe a person should use the most powerful load they are comfortable with. For me that is 40 caliber in a Glock. I'd love 45acp but in a Glock the gun I'd want hasn't been made. No 45GAP isn't the answer for me as I won't reload it and it isn't commonly available at reasonable pricing locally. My mother is very recoil shy and has very limited strenght because of a disability so for her I bought a Ruger LCR and put 110 grain wadcutters in it. Is it as powerful or a good a choice as a 9mm JHP? Of course not. For her it is the better choice because if she ever needs to use it I feel her making hits with the less powerful round is more important than misses with something more powerful.

In the end it comes down to what is best for an individual. If a person can only handle recoil from a 22lr and can make hits with it then it is the best choice.

Nicely put!


"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway."
-- John Wayne

The Retired Sarge
08-22-2012, 11:12
Hmmm sarge, been LEO most of my life and have carried 9mm for yrs, including your 147. Have seen it fail on many occasions on stuff it shouldn't have. So spare me that's what everyone carries BS, they carry what they're told to, not what performs best:upeyes:

9mm +P+,

Didn't know you were LE too and I thank you for your service. I have seen everything fail but also work very well at times. Different opinions and theories of bullet effectiveness will probably never be totally agreed upon. Its all good. Remain safe. Bill

bfg1971
08-22-2012, 11:41
Pistol ammo of any reasonable caliber fails occasionally. We trade power for portability and hope we never need it. Carry what works best for you.

I carry a 10mm because it knocked down bowling pins better than any other auto pistol cartrige, again with normal carry calibers. I figured why have 1 caliber for my game gun and another for carry.

Wife carries a 45 because she likes 1911's. Actually she stole the gun from me. :supergrin: For as much as we all like to brag on our favorite caliber its really 6 of one, half dozen of the other.

Practice and precision will make up for any actual effectiveness which might exist between rounds. 22lr to the eye will pretty much ruin your day; 44 automag grazing your shirt not so much. Accuracy trumps all.

swinokur
08-22-2012, 11:48
Use your pistol to fight your way to your long gun.

dkf
08-22-2012, 11:52
I would wager the 9x19 is probably the most popular pistol round in the country, maybe even the world. "No Love", I'm not seeing it.

swinokur
08-22-2012, 12:01
After the infamous Miami shootout in 1986, the FBI found the 9mm lacking, and after some testing, adopted the 10mm, which then was downloaded and became the 40 S & W. The FBI adopted this as their service caliber.

Full disclosure:

I don't own a 9mm. I own 10mm and 45 ACP. I don't have a dog in this hunt.

fredj338
08-22-2012, 12:10
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-oqStkeuHtx0/TVzFYveoNyI/AAAAAAAAACg/z3xQxKIH0N0/s1600/129173884698031280.jpg
Well a troll is a guy that comes to a site & stirs up crap, not a guy that has been on the site for years. So thanks for admitting you are trolling.:wavey:

AKRover
08-22-2012, 12:31
After the infamous Miami shootout in 1986, the FBI found the 9mm lacking, and after some testing, adopted the 10mm, which then was downloaded and became the 40 S & W. The FBI adopted this as their service caliber.

Full disclosure:

I don't own a 9mm. I own 10mm and 45 ACP. I don't have a dog in this hunt.

I'm with you. Currently I only have 10mm and 45ACP.

As I've read and learned more I've changed my opinion of the 9mm. It's not the weak, ineffective round I always thought it was. That being said I still don't see me owning one. I'm just not in an environment where a 9mm would be a good choice for me. I try to avoid shooting humans and the four legged threats around here won't be phased by 9mm. Some of those four legged creatures I even question if 10mm is enough.

But like others have said, I don't see any lack of love for the 9mm.

OctoberRust
08-22-2012, 13:13
Yeah yeah, yeah. I see the faster follow up shots all the time, mostly misses. Hosing a target to get hits is fine, as long as you ar carrying anough ammo to shoot that way. Poor training, JMO.
Gee, what about the states that only allow 10rd mags? Are you still relying on the 9mm in a full size gun? What about non JHP states, still sticking to the 9mm? Yes caliber/ammo & guns choice are always a bit more complicated than mag cap. If you can't shoot it, then don't carry it obviously, but if you can shoot a 9mm, you can shoot a 40 or 45, most of the time just as well. I do like the 9mm, just n certain platforms. It's perfect in the subcompacts & compacts that allow 24-7 CCW & you'll still get a decent ammo supply. My XD45C is the same size & wt as my G19, each only gets 10rds max here, I catually shoot the XD45C a bit better, easy choice for me.

Who says I miss? Or who says the person shooting that caliber misses? I shoot in IDPA where most targets require 2 shots to "stop". I'm not missing even under stress and speed:dunno: Now if I'm going to miss, I'd rather miss small and have a faster follow up for a hit, than not..... You're making it sound like bigger calibers guys only have to shoot once and they always hit dead center and that stops them. You know as well as I, regardless of your handgun caliber you may have to shoot multiple times, 5,10,15,even 20 times to stop a threat. I want faster follow up shots, more ammo on hand, if it does come down to that. I can't see how each hole being less than 1/10th of an inch bigger out weighing the advantage of faster follow up shots with more holes in the target. I hope that clears it up a little bit for you, and your assumption that if someone has a lot of rounds on hand they're going to "spray and pray".

And for those who live in states that are only trusted with 10 round mags by their governments, I say either change the law, or move.

ETA - 9 is fine in bigger platforms such as the g19 (my EDC regardless of weather/dress I wear 24/7) as well, and should not be dismissed as a pocket gun caliber. 15+1 rounds with faster follow ups is a far greater hit probability than something with less rounds and slower follow up shots, given the same shooter and not comparing different skill levels.

At the end of the day, you have to figure out what is more important to you. Faster follow up shots and more rounds in case of a failure to stop, or a bigger bullet. It seems the bigger bullet crowd places too much faith in a "one shot stop" fantasy, and not enough on practicing failure to stop drills.

countrygun
08-22-2012, 13:24
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-oqStkeuHtx0/TVzFYveoNyI/AAAAAAAAACg/z3xQxKIH0N0/s1600/129173884698031280.jpg


I wouldn't be implying that Fred is a troll if I were you, I know him from several forums and he is top notch when it comes to ballistics, projectiles, handloading, and shooting. We don't agree on everything 100% of the time, but no two people do. I have been in the shooting game since I was twelve, that makes 40 years, and know few peple as experienced as Fred.

Back off.

Brucev
08-22-2012, 14:50
I have heard a lot of praise for the 9mm caliber but I have also heard a lot against it. Mainly I hear the old bigger is better which I disagree with since a headshot with a .22lr will kill. I'm basically curious if there are any good examples of a 9mm outwright failing as opposed to debating whether on should carry the biggest caliber possible or not.

People are emotional beings. They seldom make decisions coolly and rationally. They will go to extremes to justify their own positions and to denigrate the positions of those with whom they disagree. One sees it in everything from cars and sports, etc. Why would discussions about various pistol calibers be any different.

As to failures, there are plenty of instances in which one caliber or another has failed. Many hunters have seen game animals drop like a stone when shot with some common hunting caliber. Many have also seen game animals fail to drop when shot by heavily loaded rifles/shotguns/handguns. Again, when considering pistol calibers, it would be surprising if the same pattern did not exist.

ZombieJoe
08-22-2012, 15:02
9 is just fine for me.

Like others have said it has a lot more to do with placement, also plain ole luck.

In the famous "44 Caliber Killer", AKA "Son of Sam" case. The shooter used a 44 magnum there were several people who were shot but did not die, including one head shot.

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TheJ
08-22-2012, 15:29
If there was a table full of .45, .40, 9mm and 10mm pistols, loaded with quality SD ammo... and I have to pick just one to go defend my family with against an unknow threat, I'm picking up the one with most rounds in it.

countrygun
08-22-2012, 15:32
9 is just fine for me.

Like others have said it has a lot more to do with placement, also plain ole luck.

In the famous "44 Caliber Killer", AKA "Son of Sam" case. The shooter used a 44 magnum there were several people who were shot but did not die, including one head shot.

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You are wrong.

He used a .44 Special Charter Arms "Bulldog" with loads that are FAR from the level of the .44 magnum.

ZombieJoe
08-22-2012, 15:53
Ok, does that change any thing in the point that I was making?

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Wyocop
08-22-2012, 16:25
Some people just prefer a smaller caliber and shoot it well. Self defense ammo has advanced so much that those people are not at much of a disadvantage, if any disadvantage at all.

A .36 Navy was ballistically similar to a .380: I think the round ball was around 80gr or so and it usually moved along at about 1000fps, depending on how much black powder got dumped in the cylinder. So this caliber was not even up to 9mm specs, yet Hickok used it to police Abiline, KS. Does anyone think Hickok would have been more dangerous with a .44 horse pistol?

There's a certain amount of logic in the idea that a 9mm might fail to expand but a .45 will never shrink; most 9mm fans do say that if they were limited to hardball they'd carry a .45 ACP. But I can't place much faith in the failure to expand argument; it seems to assume one shot and there will usually be more than one, sometimes several more. The propability that three to five 9mm rounds will all fail to expand seems miniscule to me, at best.

countrygun
08-22-2012, 16:35
Ok, does that change any thing in the point that I was making?

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Yes it does. Technically there is quite a bit of difference. How many people have we seen in accidents getting stuff stuck in their skulls and brains and surviving? that speaks to the unreliability of what we all know, and it is good to remember but to suggest that a .44 magnum headshot has the same survivablity as a .44 special is really ignoring a bunch of ballistic factors.

countrygun
08-22-2012, 16:40
Some people just prefer a smaller caliber and shoot it well. Self defense ammo has advanced so much that those people are not at much of a disadvantage, if any disadvantage at all.

A .36 Navy was ballistically similar to a .380: I think the round ball was around 80gr or so and it usually moved along at about 1000fps, depending on how much black powder got dumped in the cylinder. So this caliber was not even up to 9mm specs, yet Hickok used it to police Abiline, KS. Does anyone think Hickok would have been more dangerous with a .44 horse pistol?

There's a certain amount of logic in the idea that a 9mm might fail to expand but a .45 will never shrink; most 9mm fans do say that if they were limited to hardball they'd carry a .45 ACP. But I can't place much faith in the failure to expand argument; it seems to assume one shot and there will usually be more than one, sometimes several more. The propability that three to five 9mm rounds will all fail to expand seems miniscule to me, at best.

That is a very good point and deserves to be repeated.

Much of the bad chatter that has followed the 9mm comes from the "old days" that I can remember when so-called "expanding" 9mm ammo was more of a crapshoot that a reliable event. The old pure lead of Hickock's loads expanded much more reliably that the soft point and hollow points in the 9mm of days gone by.
take a look at some of the BP bullets remoed from people back then. I saw the results of a shooting with one about a decade ago. Better performance that a 1978 "expanding" 9mm.

Wyocop
08-22-2012, 16:42
Maybe this thread needs a little humor.

Let's just say for arguments sake that a .45 ACP is really "better than" a 9mm at "stopping." And for the sake of the argument, let's speculate that you average 1-3 rounds of .45 ACP for a "stop" and double that amount of 9mm for the same effect, so 2-6 rounds.

Now .45 ACP fans, if you really do love to shoot, why are you always complaining about carrying a round that will give you a little more trigger time? :supergrin:

fredj338
08-22-2012, 16:43
Who says I miss? Or who says the person shooting that caliber misses? I shoot in IDPA where most targets require 2 shots to "stop". I'm not missing even under stress and speed:dunno: Now if I'm going to miss, I'd rather miss small and have a faster follow up for a hit, than not..... You're making it sound like bigger calibers guys only have to shoot once and they always hit dead center and that stops them. You know as well as I, regardless of your handgun caliber you may have to shoot multiple times, 5,10,15,even 20 times to stop a threat. I want faster follow up shots, more ammo on hand, if it does come down to that. I can't see how each hole being less than 1/10th of an inch bigger out weighing the advantage of faster follow up shots with more holes in the target. I hope that clears it up a little bit for you, and your assumption that if someone has a lot of rounds on hand they're going to "spray and pray".

And for those who live in states that are only trusted with 10 round mags by their governments, I say either change the law, or move. Childish statement really.
ETA - 9 is fine in bigger platforms such as the g19 (my EDC regardless of weather/dress I wear 24/7) as well, and should not be dismissed as a pocket gun caliber. 15+1 rounds with faster follow ups is a far greater hit probability than something with less rounds and slower follow up shots, given the same shooter and not comparing different skill levels.

At the end of the day, you have to figure out what is more important to you. Faster follow up shots and more rounds in case of a failure to stop, or a bigger bullet. It seems the bigger bullet crowd places too much faith in a "one shot stop" fantasy, and not enough on practicing failure to stop drills.

Shoot your IDPA gujn with real ammo & get back to me. With full power 9mm, +P or +P+, vs a larger 45acp platform, split times & accuracy are about the same. Yes I understand it will take likely take multiple shots but I also know I may only land one or two & they won' t be in the BG head. So if I do carry a 9mm, it's filled w/ a quality medium wt +P JHP to make as big/deep a hole as possible. BTW, everyone misses, even Master class shooters miss. Again, 10rd states, are you still sticking w/ a full size 9mm when you can have a full size 45?:dunno:
BTW, spray & pray is not an assumption, I see every IDPA match, read about it in a lot of LEO shootings. If you train that way, you will shoot that way, fact.

cowboy1964
08-22-2012, 17:02
After the infamous Miami shootout in 1986, the FBI found the 9mm lacking

Hence the adoption of the 12" FBI minimum which most quality 9mm JHP ammo now meets.

Paul53
08-22-2012, 20:51
Endless debate over the perfect round, there's no answer that we all will agree on. The Indigo Girls said it best in their song "Closer to Fine." Emphasis added by me.

I went to the doctor, I went to the mountains
I looked to the children, I drank from the fountain
There's more than one answer to these questions
pointing me in crooked line
The less I seek my source for some definitive
The closer I am to fine.

larson1122
08-23-2012, 00:22
Well that is my opinion. As far as 99% headshot deaths, you think there is another number, really?:whistling:


As usual the 9mm supporters come out in droves to hold up their choice. Look, I gave him my opinion, I believe that was what he was looking ofr was an opinion. Carry what you want, carry 2 xtra mags if it makes you feel comfy in your choice. When you ask for opinoins, don't get your panties all in a wad bewcuase you get one you don't like.

I was never knocking your opinion, I carry a .45 on occasion as well. I was simply pointing out the fact that the OP asked for opinions on the 9mm specifically, and you seemed to nudge it in the general direction of another 9 vs. 45 debate. No harm done, it was going to end up going there eventually. At least these threads are always entertaining to read.

PghJim
08-23-2012, 07:08
After the infamous Miami shootout in 1986, the FBI found the 9mm lacking, and after some testing, adopted the 10mm, which then was downloaded and became the 40 S & W. The FBI adopted this as their service caliber.

Full disclosure:

I don't own a 9mm. I own 10mm and 45 ACP. I don't have a dog in this hunt.

The 9mm Silver Tip did not fail. It was only found lacking because the FBI did not want to blame their own tactics and procedures. In any event there are much better 9mm's out today than the regular pressure Siver Tip. It does make you wonder where we would be in ammo development today if that Silver Tip had gone one more inch in 1986.

OctoberRust
08-23-2012, 08:52
Shoot your IDPA gujn with real ammo & get back to me. With full power 9mm, +P or +P+, vs a larger 45acp platform, split times & accuracy are about the same. Yes I understand it will take likely take multiple shots but I also know I may only land one or two & they won' t be in the BG head. So if I do carry a 9mm, it's filled w/ a quality medium wt +P JHP to make as big/deep a hole as possible. BTW, everyone misses, even Master class shooters miss. Again, 10rd states, are you still sticking w/ a full size 9mm when you can have a full size 45?:dunno:
BTW, spray & pray is not an assumption, I see every IDPA match, read about it in a lot of LEO shootings. If you train that way, you will shoot that way, fact.


You're again making assumptions. I shoot in IDPA with speer lawman 124 gr, they feel like my fed 98bple loads truth be told. I also use a g19, no modded trigger, and my normal dress attire. I go to IDPA to learn, not to game. Ironically enough, some of the guys who show up with race guns and the tacticool vest get worse times than me, and aren't happy with it. Plenty of times I get beat by them too though.

By you saying full power 9mm loads are the same as as .45 acp or .40 in terms of felt recoil is a down right lie. Physics is just that.... Physics.... It does not favor a caliber, it is just there to show you the numbers broken down.

Back to my point. 9mm = faster follow up shots, and more capacity given the platform I CC every day, and I feel that makes up for less than 1/10th of an inch difference in diameter. If you feel other wise, great! Carry what you choose, but you come off as the guy in the gun store who thinks a solid hit with .45 acp is a guaranteed one shot stop, which is a fairy tale.

Given the same platform, same skill/accuracy. and assuming you live in a gun-friendly state, 9mm makes more holes, faster, for the sacrifice of less than 1/10th of an inch in diameter. Get over it, it is what it is!

Saying my statement was childish just shows you're bitter, because you're stuck in a silly liberal state with asinine laws. It also may seem I'm ruffling your feathers more than the other guys who advocate a smaller lighter bullet because I'm not trying to push that silly hydrostatic BS or whatever, and I'm keeping it practical.

cdjf
08-23-2012, 12:05
guy in my dept. shot himself in the thumb with a gdhp 200gr. +p. the bad guy and him were struggling for the gun while still standing from what i am told. anyway it was from only about a foot away and the bullet just lodged in the joint below his finger nail. no expansion and last herd his thumb is doing just fine. so as stated before all bullets will fail and over penetrate at some point. its all about the bullet that you can put in the right place at the right time.

unit1069
08-23-2012, 21:01
Why no love for 9mm?

Whadda ya mean, bro?

I love 9mm and it's not even my favorite caliber. In fact, I own twice as many 9mm pistols as I do my favorite caliber. So there!

I can live with people who love other calibers better than 9mm just like I can live with 9mm lovers who think that's the best one of all. It doesn't affect my opinions one bit what anybody else has chosen.

officialaccount
08-23-2012, 21:30
Whadda ya mean, bro?

I love 9mm and it's not even my favorite caliber. In fact, I own twice as many 9mm pistols as I do my favorite caliber. So there!

I can live with people who love other calibers better than 9mm just like I can live with 9mm lovers who think that's the best one of all. It doesn't affect my opinions one bit what anybody else has chosen.

My sentiments too, I just like to hear peoples opinions from time to time to see if one of them manages to change my mind. :whistling:

officialaccount
08-23-2012, 21:34
I wouldn't be implying that Fred is a troll if I were you, I know him from several forums and he is top notch when it comes to ballistics, projectiles, handloading, and shooting. We don't agree on everything 100% of the time, but no two people do. I have been in the shooting game since I was twelve, that makes 40 years, and know few peple as experienced as Fred.

Back off.

Well trolling is flaming and trying to change the focus of thread in a negative manner. Which fred was. Seems like a guy who can't handle opposing view points very well, given that he was instantly hostile to me. Here is another pic to explain things:

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/152/237/zP10f.gif?1311323322

Tiro Fijo
08-23-2012, 21:45
guy in my dept. shot himself in the thumb with a gdhp 200gr. +p....

it was from only about a foot away and the bullet just lodged in the joint below his finger nail. no expansion...



BS.

I think there are some critical details missing here, such as the bullet passing through the bad guy first.

countrygun
08-23-2012, 22:12
Well trolling is flaming and trying to change the focus of thread in a negative manner. Which fred was. Seems like a guy who can't handle opposing view points very well, given that he was instantly hostile to me. Here is another pic to explain things:

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/152/237/zP10f.gif?1311323322


You are doing a lot to convince me that his hostility was misplaced, yup sure are

RMTactical
08-23-2012, 22:13
I'll go on record saying I love the 9mm. Shot placement is real power.

I just bought a .45 today though... :supergrin:

JW1178
08-23-2012, 22:15
Well, it's easy to say the 9mm is the smallest, weakest caliber of the "service calibers" but then again, if all that mattered was caliber, we would drop the M-16 and M4's with little 5.56's and just issue all our troops Barrett M82's .50bmg.

officialaccount
08-23-2012, 22:20
You are doing a lot to convince me that his hostility was misplaced, yup sure are

Well generally speaking if you greet someone with hostility, its what you get in return.

JW1178
08-23-2012, 22:47
BS.

I think there are some critical details missing here, such as the bullet passing through the bad guy first.

I'd like to add a second BS to that story. Really, now a .45 can't penetrate a finger nail, but the mighty 9mm would blow right through them.

So amazing of how defensive the 9mm fanboys are, like they have to prove something, possibly to themselves.

Also, there is hardly a difference in recoil between the calibers, the 9mm has slightly less but it's not much at all.

crash09
08-24-2012, 07:47
practice shooting instead of debating

That's a signature line if I ever heard one.

fredj338
08-24-2012, 12:46
By you saying full power 9mm loads are the same as as .45 acp or .40 in terms of felt recoil is a down right lie. Physics is just that.... Physics.... It does not favor a caliber, it is just there to show you the numbers broken down.

Back to my point. 9mm = faster follow up shots, and more capacity given the platform I CC every day, and I feel that makes up for less than 1/10th of an inch difference in diameter. If you feel other wise, great! Carry what you choose, but you come off as the guy in the gun store who thinks a solid hit with .45 acp is a guaranteed one shot stop, which is a fairy tale.

Given the same platform, same skill/accuracy. and assuming you live in a gun-friendly state, 9mm makes more holes, faster, for the sacrifice of less than 1/10th of an inch in diameter. Get over it, it is what it is!

Saying my statement was childish just shows you're bitter, because you're stuck in a silly liberal state with asinine laws. It also may seem I'm ruffling your feathers more than the other guys who advocate a smaller lighter bullet because I'm not trying to push that silly hydrostatic BS or whatever, and I'm keeping it practical.
mORE BS emotional ranting above, spare me. Reading is not your strrong suit is it. I never said 9mm & 45 were the same. I said, if you shoot 9mm+P or +P+ in a smaller plateform, it will have sim recoil to 45acp in a larger platform. No lies their buddy, just subjective opinion based on tons of shooting all manner of caliber & pistols.
So back to it again, 10rd state, same number of holes but the 45 will make bigger holes w/ equal bullet construction, always. That is fact. So if I can shoot, which I can, as well w/ say a XS45C, 10rds, or a G19, also 10rds, why handicap myself w/ a smaller caliber?
As in hunting dangerous game, shoot the largest caliber you can be effective with. Simple. Gunfights are won on the margins, so I'll take waht ever margin that may be. For me, silly laws or not, 10rds of 45 or 10rds of 9mm, nearly identical platforms, easy. Yeah, yeah, I beat a lot of the local 9mm IDPA guys shooting 45, so what? I will not likely be shooting against skilled attackers. Skill trumps caliber all day, but even at our best, we wil need a lot of luck too.:dunno:

fredj338
08-24-2012, 12:50
Well generally speaking if you greet someone with hostility, its what you get in return.

Look, come onto any forum with childish gibberish of hit men & 22lr & terminal balistics, well, someone is going to let you know & I did. It's not hostile, just not poliitically correct, I've never been politically correct. I stop worrying about peoples feelings when they cross the age of twelve. So your feelings got hurt, whaaaa, grow up. You want justification for carrying your ammo & gun, you don't need any, carry what you like, we all do. Just don't expect a love fest for your choice, we all have preferences.

OctoberRust
08-24-2012, 13:22
mORE BS emotional ranting above, spare me. Reading is not your strrong suit is it. I never said 9mm & 45 were the same. I said, if you shoot 9mm+P or +P+ in a smaller plateform, it will have sim recoil to 45acp in a larger platform. No lies their buddy, just subjective opinion based on tons of shooting all manner of caliber & pistols.
So back to it again, 10rd state, same number of holes but the 45 will make bigger holes w/ equal bullet construction, always. That is fact. So if I can shoot, which I can, as well w/ say a XS45C, 10rds, or a G19, also 10rds, why handicap myself w/ a smaller caliber?
As in hunting dangerous game, shoot the largest caliber you can be effective with. Simple. Gunfights are won on the margins, so I'll take waht ever margin that may be. For me, silly laws or not, 10rds of 45 or 10rds of 9mm, nearly identical platforms, easy. Yeah, yeah, I beat a lot of the local 9mm IDPA guys shooting 45, so what? I will not likely be shooting against skilled attackers. Skill trumps caliber all day, but even at our best, we wil need a lot of luck too.:dunno:


It seems reading isn't your strong suit. I said PLATFORM for PLATFORM......

This is caliber corner after all, not platform corner...... Again, it's not my problem that you live in a liberal state that only trusts you guys with 10 rd mags. Either buy pre-ban or carry a 1911 with 7 or 8 rounds.

It's funny how worked up you get over me pointing out the obvious. :rofl:Relax there little guy, it's just the internet.

WinterWizard
08-26-2012, 03:33
.22lr is lethal to the head because its so low oddly enough.

Yes, but not EVERY time, which is the point I was making. :tongueout:

WinterWizard
08-26-2012, 03:43
BS.

I think there are some critical details missing here, such as the bullet passing through the bad guy first.

For once I agree with you, Tiro. Watch Tnoutdoors9's video on the 200 gr. +P Gold Dot. I believe it had 13" of penetration through layers of denim into ballistics gel - and massive expansion. You get shot in the thumb point blank with this round, it's bye bye thumb. Didn't expand, huh? Then it would penetrate even further. This is pure BS.

uz2bUSMC
08-26-2012, 07:56
guy in my dept. shot himself in the thumb with a gdhp 200gr. +p. the bad guy and him were struggling for the gun while still standing from what i am told. anyway it was from only about a foot away and the bullet just lodged in the joint below his finger nail. no expansion and last herd his thumb is doing just fine. so as stated before all bullets will fail and over penetrate at some point. its all about the bullet that you can put in the right place at the right time.

A .22 wil blow right through a thumb. Whatever was perceived to have happened during that encounter and what actually happened are two different things. A thumb will never stop a service caliber round without some other variable in effect. So, that particular bullet hit something else first, was a seriously defficient cartridge or that guy in your department happens to be Wolverine.

uz2bUSMC
08-26-2012, 08:11
I have heard a lot of praise for the 9mm caliber but I have also heard a lot against it. Mainly I hear the old bigger is better which I disagree with since a headshot with a .22lr will kill. I'm basically curious if there are any good examples of a 9mm outwright failing as opposed to debating whether on should carry the biggest caliber possible or not.

Shouldn't get caught up in "killing". Stopping is what's important. The 9mm has and will continue to "stop" assailants faster with more finality than the .22.

I personally don't have much love for the 9mm because I feel it to be a bit anemic. A lot of people love it because they shoot paper and they can do it fast, this generally makes them feel good. Feeling good gives you confidence. So in the end if you have confidence in your caliber you are at least ahead of the game. Confidence has helped individuals overcome adversity for a long time. I would rather have something that hits harder, however.

stopatrain
08-26-2012, 08:37
I have alot of fun with 9mm, I shoot a ton of it. For serious work I'd rather have something more but I have no trouble trusting it with the right ammo.

tcruse
08-26-2012, 09:44
The bottom line for me is this: There is no difference between 9x19, .40, .357, .45 when you look at the best SD americian ammo. The FBI set a standard and all of the big ammo manufactures made ammo in the service calibers that match that standard. If you go outside the FBI test environment, then the calibers may behave differently. But again, you will find cases where 9mm is best and cases where other calibers work better. More powerful (or bigger) is not necessary more effective or better. This months NRA magizine has an article that is interesting on this subject.

uz2bUSMC
08-26-2012, 10:36
The bottom line for me is this: There is no difference between 9x19, .40, .357, .45 when you look at the best SD americian ammo.

Many have said this but I haven't seen anyone prove it.

9mmParabellum
08-26-2012, 10:53
I like and have faith in the 9mm, WITH the proper loads, no 147gr. garbage.

I second that. If the 9mm is not the best caliber the 147gr has not made it any better the best results have been in 115,124,125,127gr shootings. We were trained to take head shots with 158gr 9mm from suppressed pistol either making enty or having to leave vs sneaking up and stabbing a sentry.

9mmParabellum
08-26-2012, 11:03
.22lr is lethal to the head because its so low oddly enough. It has enough force to enter the skull but not enough to exit. which sents it ping ponging around a persons brain. Richard kulklinsky a nortorus mafia hit said it was one of his favorite calibers.

I guess i could see non expanding 9mm leaving something to desired since its a higher velocity handgun round.

The .22 has its place from those who have experince through assassinations especially. The zipper drill came from Mafia Hit men done with the .22 originally.

JEEPX
08-26-2012, 11:11
http://img.tapatalk.com/a6f840e2-55e8-96df.jpg


I have tried other calibers. These include. 40s&w, .357Sig, .45acp. and the 10mm.

There is a very, very small difference in the expanded diameters. So small as to be inconsequential.
Since there are no death rays, I think caliber debates are silly. Use what you are comfortable with. I prefer the 9mm.
If I was limited to 10 rounds like I was during the AWB, I would still choose 9mm.
No amount of posting is going to change my mind. The advocates for the other calibers feel the same way.
I.
On the other hand, such debates make for good reading.





Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

G26S239
08-26-2012, 11:19
Many have said this but I haven't seen anyone prove it.
I think of it as the Goldilocks theory. Everything < than 9mm is not strong enough whereas everything > than 9mm kicks too hard to be accurate with, can't do follow up shots etc. Extrapolating from that reasoning I have concluded that 357 magnum = 475 Linebaugh because bigger is not better, faster is not better, heavier is not better. Nope. Pistol stopping power has hit the sweet spot with 147 grains @ 990 fps. No other load needed.

An interesting subset of the Goldilocks theory is that 9mm +P+ kicks the same as 40 S&W and wears guns out and is probably loaded to 454 Casull pressure levels since SAAMI doesn't spec it and Winchester doesn't care if their ammo turns a Glock, HK or Sig into a grenade. :rofl:

Gen3 fan
08-26-2012, 11:34
This is an interesting thread I have read
All of them here , what happened to the
.38 has the 9mm replaced it or the 357 glock
Just woundered

uz2bUSMC
08-26-2012, 11:35
I think of it as the Goldilocks theory. Everything < than 9mm is not strong enough whereas everything > than 9mm kicks too hard to be accurate with, can't do follow up shots etc. Extrapolating from that reasoning I have concluded that 357 magnum = 475 Linebaugh because bigger is not better, faster is not better, heavier is not better. Nope. Pistol stopping power has hit the sweet spot with 147 grains @ 990 fps. No other load needed.

An interesting subset of the Goldilocks theory is that 9mm +P+ kicks the same as 40 S&W and wears guns out and is probably loaded to 454 Casull pressure levels since SAAMI doesn't spec it and Winchester doesn't care if their ammo turns a Glock, HK or Sig into a grenade. :rofl:

I don't have a problem with follow up shots and I don't carry 9mm. There is also no problem with recoil before your first shot.

IMHO, the 147's should be relegated to gel, they are a recipe for non expansion.

Dandapani
08-26-2012, 12:19
So much 147 grain hate. Must be all the magical bullet energy transfer guys.

I have tested 147 grain from 2" snub expands fine in wet pack.

I have received many reports from police trainer on the absolute efficacy of the HST 147 grain round.

It's all about holes, deep holes, in the right places.

fredj338
08-26-2012, 12:22
It seems reading isn't your strong suit. I said PLATFORM for PLATFORM......

This is caliber corner after all, not platform corner...... Again, it's not my problem that you live in a liberal state that only trusts you guys with 10 rd mags. Either buy pre-ban or carry a 1911 with 7 or 8 rounds.

It's funny how worked up you get over me pointing out the obvious. :rofl:Relax there little guy, it's just the internet.

DOn't twist the words, you were the one calling me a lier because you failed to read the post. I am not the one defending the 9mm here, that would be you. I am rleaxed, even in my fduped state. I shoot just fine w/ just about anything from 9mm to 44mag, so I rarely let caliber make the decsion but platform. Kind of my entire point, but you did miss all that.:dunno:

uz2bUSMC
08-26-2012, 12:30
So much 147 grain hate. Must be all the magical bullet energy transfer guys.

I have tested 147 grain from 2" snub expands fine in wet pack.

I have received many reports from police trainer on the absolute efficacy of the HST 147 grain round.

It's all about holes, deep holes, in the right places.

Everything works great in wet pack. That's why people like tests in wet pack or water jugs. Nice pretty expanded bullets, makes everyone happy about their carry choice.

cdjf
08-26-2012, 13:54
A .22 wil blow right through a thumb. Whatever was perceived to have happened during that encounter and what actually happened are two different things. A thumb will never stop a service caliber round without some other variable in effect. So, that particular bullet hit something else first, was a seriously defficient cartridge or that guy in your department happens to be Wolverine.

the point was that all bullets will fail eventually. non are full proof no matter what the size. the bullet didnt hit anything first it just failed like all with sometimes

fredj338
08-26-2012, 14:45
Everything works great in wet pack. That's why people like tests in wet pack or water jugs. Nice pretty expanded bullets, makes everyone happy about their carry choice.

Same for gello too. Water makes a poor bullet work & can fragment good bullets. Wetpack is very equal to gello for expansion but the compression of the wetpack reduces penetration by about 25%. Bullet companies used it for decades to test bullets, It's still very reliable. Wetpack will not expand a hard bullet as water will, much like gello. Wetpack is just so much easier to work with though. All pretty moot as the ammo companies do a good job testing.

WinterWizard
08-26-2012, 16:19
The bottom line for me is this: There is no difference between 9x19, .40, .357, .45 when you look at the best SD americian ammo. The FBI set a standard and all of the big ammo manufactures made ammo in the service calibers that match that standard. If you go outside the FBI test environment, then the calibers may behave differently. But again, you will find cases where 9mm is best and cases where other calibers work better. More powerful (or bigger) is not necessary more effective or better. This months NRA magizine has an article that is interesting on this subject.

Wrong. Most 9mm fanboy thing I've ever heard.

unit1069
08-26-2012, 16:24
http://img.tapatalk.com/a6f840e2-55e8-96df.jpg

There is a very, very small difference in the expanded diameters. So small as to be inconsequential.

But there's quite a bit of difference in the impact event so measuring the final dimensions of the bullets don't tell the full story.

The photo of different caliber performance floating around on these forums shows that the impact of .357sig, .40S&W, and .45ACP are greater than the 9mm, with the 147-grain 9mm round being the most anemic round of all.

If an aggressor bleeds out and loses consciousness faster due to the impact event trauma then that is what it is.

And this small bit of opinion doesn't take into consideration other factors that may lead to someone choosing one caliber over another, or one platform over others.

countrygun
08-26-2012, 16:41
Interesting debate. Mirrors about a million (or so it seems) on the internet, and in gunshops and barbershops all over the Country.

I have come to my own conclusions not from gellatin test or wet pack, but from shooting living critters and butchering them. My opinions are usually written off immediately by those who insist it takes a graph or a chart or a formula to be valid and what you learn in the field doesn't count, so I shall leave you to your theoretical discussion.

unit1069
08-26-2012, 16:51
I have come to my own conclusions not from gellatin test or wet pack, but from shooting living critters and butchering them. My opinions are usually written off immediately by those who insist it takes a graph or a chart or a formula to be valid and what you learn in the field doesn't count, so I shall leave you to your theoretical discussion.

I'm certainly interested in reading your conclusions and I assure you I won't question your choice.

countrygun
08-26-2012, 18:23
I'm certainly interested in reading your conclusions and I assure you I won't question your choice.


I wasn't really fishing for someone to ask but since you did, and politely too, I shall attempt to answer, but it will be a bit long. I will try to arrainge it in a logical sequence with an historical perspective. It will take a bit to get to the handgun debate because I want to share the whole of my experience.

Go back to the development of smokeless powder and the "sub-.35 cal" military rounds. The 30-40 Krag round was not developed to be more powerful, or as powerful as the 45-70 it replaced, it was developed to be more "shootable" and to have a flatter trajectory to that end.

I did my first deer hunting with the one-time famous .250-3000 Savage round. It was the first factory cartridge to break the 3,000 fps barrier, but rememmber this, it was not designed, (by a Mr. Newton, although obviously not Issac) to be a "3,000 fps" round. The designer had in mind a 100 gn bullet at about 2,800 fps. The 3,000 velocity was the creation of the marketing department when they whittled the bullet weight down until they could break that "magic" barrier, hence the odd 87 grain weight to the original bullet. This gun was taken all over the world and advertising photos were taken with all kinds of dead animals that fell to the magic pills. What they didn't show was all the intrepid folks that got well and duly mauled when the the magic pill didn't work.

About the same time, give or take, Remington decided to develop a series of rounds, the longest lasting of which was the .35 Remington. Take the time to compare the ballistic of the 100gn Savage load (what is loaded today) and the .35 Rem. note the bore difference, weight ratio and velocities.

I held my rifles of both caliber in my hands today while pondering this question and thought about the results the have brought. If a person was raised on the .250, or .243, or even .308 and had no experience butchering animals shot by anything else they would swear they had the "perfect" gun and as long as it never failed, they would be right. Now, of course any round can fail even the .35 but when you see the type, remember TYPE, of damage a 225 gn .35 bullet does you see it is not dependent ,as much as a lighter round, on "performance" (as marketing people define it) as it is just the shear mass of the bullet and remember, it isn't "slipping in and expanding" it is making a .35+ hole all the way through.

I will also toss in that I have seen a highly touted .223 round fail to stop a 100 lbs (approx) blacktail, when fired by an experienced hunter at about 50 yds. heck, a .30 carbine could have managed that shot.

Now I am sorry if someone wants to say "But countrygun, those are rifles" but I fail to see that if 800 fps won't turn a 100 gn .25 bullet into a 225 gn .35, that 650-700 fps is going to turn a 115 gn .35 into a 230 gn .45.

To sum up my rifle diatribe, if I had to stop something at under 100yds FAST, I would pick my .35 over my .250



Moving to the pistol end of things I can speak a bit to the effects of the .357 magnum vs the .45 Colt and there is a similar effect without the benefit of rifle velocities, but IMO the gap is a bit smaller (probably why my favorite woods pistol is a .41 mag, 220 gn at 1,100 fps)

Now this is where it gets interesting in terms of SD and the handgun to me. Velocity sells. The history of the .44 Magnum being much more than Elmer Keith thought was needed or he was asking for should be a clue. Remembering that handgun encounters are usually sort range affairs we sort of conclude that the trajectory issue is rather moot, which takes a chunk out of the velocity benefits. So what we are really left with, like the early developers of sporting, smokeless powder rifle cartridges is the attempt to make a smaller bullet duplicate the effects of a larger one, just that simple. All of the talk about the "shock effect" of a bullet expanding is just that, "talk".

Stop and think back to some elementary physics. (and you don't have to drag out the alphabet soup of formulas, common sense will do) If you want to put a bullet on a hard surface and deform it, how do you do it? You have to apply force to it. when a bullet deforms inside a target where does that force come from? the bullet brings it along with it, so when we talk about the energy transfer and "shock" bear in mind a whole lot of that is spent on the bullet itself in it's own deforming. We could load bullet jackets with modeling clay and they would expand all to heck and back, but would they make a great choice? I don't think so. Now that is an exreme of course, but exactly where IS that line?

We, literally, have to "Pay our money,and take our chances".

After all of that (and I thank you if you have read this far, even greater thanks if you have gone back and re-read portions and thought about them) I have come to a personal decision that firmly straddles the fence, but I keep my own experience in mind.

Given the span of bullet weights in both the 9mm and .45 and given the variables the come into play in the real world, even in one caliber you are unlikely to have "the perfect" bullet for all circumstances. A pistol is a bad choice in the first place, but often all we have. I lean toward the heavier larger bullet, well..... to put it in my simpleton-like terms... "because it doesn't have to do any "tricks" to do it's damage and Mr. Murphy doesn't like me very much"..... but I don't lose anytime worrying if I decide to put on a 9mm for the day with my choice of ammo. IF I am going "off pavement" though, most times I have something on that starts with a ".4". with at least a 200gn bullet, clicking along at a bit over 1,000 fps. But once in a while a .45 acp goes with me .

uz2bUSMC
08-26-2012, 18:50
I wasn't really fishing for someone to ask but since you did, and politely too, I shall attempt to answer, but it will be a bit long. I will try to arrainge it in a logical sequence with an historical perspective. It will take a bit to get to the handgun debate because I want to share the whole of my experience.

Go back to the development of smokeless powder and the "sub-.35 cal" military rounds. The 30-40 Krag round was not developed to be more powerful, or as powerful as the 45-70 it replaced, it was developed to be more "shootable" and to have a flatter trajectory to that end.

I did my first deer hunting with the one-time famous .250-3000 Savage round. It was the first factory cartridge to break the 3,000 fps barrier, but rememmber this, it was not designed, (by a Mr. Newton, although obviously not Issac) to be a "3,000 fps" round. The designer had in mind a 100 gn bullet at about 2,800 fps. The 3,000 velocity was the creation of the marketing department when the whittled the bullet weight down until they culd break that "magic" barrier, hence the odd 87 grain weight to the original bullet. This gun was taken all over the world and advertising photos were taken with all kinds of dead animals that fell to the magic pills. What they didn't show was all the intrepid folks that got well an duly mauled when the the magic pill didn't work.

About the same time, give or take, Remington decided to develop a series of rounds, the longest lasting of which was the .35 Remington. Take the time to compare the ballistic of the 100gn Savage load (what is loaded today) and the .35 Rem. note the bore difference, weight ratio and velocities.

I held my rifles of both caliber in my hands today while pondering this question and thought about the results the have brought. If a person was raised on the .250, or .243, or even .308 and had no experience butchering animals shot by anything else they would swear they had the "perfect" gun and as long as it never failed, they would be right. Now, of course any round can fail even the .35 but when you see the type, remember TYPE, of damage a 225 gn .35 bullet does you see it is not dependent ,as much as a lighter round, on "performance" (as marketing people define it) as it is just the shear mass of the bullet and remember, it isn't "slipping in and expanding" it is making a .35+ hole all the way through.

I will also toss in that I have seen a highly touted .223 round fail to stop a 100 lbs (approx) blacktail, when fired by an experienced hunter at about 50 yds. heck, a .30 carbine could have managed that shot.

Now I am sorry if someone wants to say "But countrygun, those are rifles" but I fail to see that if 800 fps won't turn a 100 gn .25 bullet into a 225 gn .35, that 650-700 fps is going to turn a 115 gn .35 into a 230 gn .45.

To sum up my rifle diatribe, if I had to stop something at under 100yds FAST, I would pick my .35 over my .250



Moving to the pistol end of things I can speak a bit to the effects of the .357 magnum vs the .45 Colt and there is a similar effect without the benefit of rifle velocities, but IMO the gap is a bit smaller (probably why my favorite woods pistol is a .41 mag, 220 gn at 1,100 fps)

Now this is where it gets interesting in terms of SD and the handgun to me. Velocity sells. The history of the .44 Magnum being much more than Elmer Keith thought was needed or he was asking for should be a clue. Remembering that handgun encounters are usually sort range affairs we sort of conclude that the trajectory issue is rather moot, which takes a chunk out of the velocity benefits. So what we are really left with, like the early developers of sporting, smokeless powder rifle cartridges is the attempt to make a smaller bullet duplicate the effects of a larger one, just that simple. All of the talk about the "shock effect" of a bullet expanding is just that, "talk".

Stop and think back to some elementary physics. (and you don't have to drag out the alphabet soup of formulas, common sense will do) If you want to put a bullet on a hard surface and deform it, how do you do it? You have to apply force to it. when a bullet deforms inside a target where does that force come from? the bullet brings it along with it, so when we talk about the energy transfer and "shock" bear in mind a whole lot of that is spent on the bullet itself in it's own deforming. We could load bullet jackets with modeling clay and they would expand all to heck and back, but would they make a great choice? I don't thing so. Now that is an exreme of course, but exactly where IS that line?

We, literally, have to "Pay our money,and take our chances".

After all of that (and I thank you if you have read this far, even greater thanks if you have gone back and re-read portions and thought about them) I have come to a personal decision that firmly straddles the fence, but I keep my own experience in mind.

Given the span of bullet weights in both the 9mm and .45 and given the variables the come into play in the real world, even in one caliber you are unlikely to have "the perfect" bullet for all circumstances. A pistol is a bad choice in the first place, but often all we have. I lean toward the heavier larger bullet, well..... to put it in my simpleton-like terms... "because it doesn't have to do any "tricks" to do it's damage and Mr. Murphy doesn't like me very much"..... but I don't lose anytime worrying if I decide to put on a 9mm for the day with my choice of ammo. IF I am going "off pavement" though, most times I have something on that starts with a ".4". with at least a 200gn bullet, clicking along at a bit over 1,000 fps. But once in a while a .45 acp goes with me .

Everybody has an opinion, usually based on something they can't even explain. Like any subject there can be disagreements but debates are better when some one has some substance to their point. I will say I don't agree with you but I will also say you have given an elegant explanation of your point backed by personal experience which is refreshing. Thank you,Sir, for taking the time to illustrate your view point so clearly. Read every bit of it.

countrygun
08-26-2012, 19:05
Everybody has an opinion, usually based on something they can't even explain. Like any subject there can be disagreements but debates are better when some one has some substance to their point. I will say I don't agree with you but I will also say you have given an elegant explanation of your point backed by personal experience which is refreshing. Thank you,Sir, for taking the time to illustrate your view point so clearly. Read every bit of it.


I thank you sir. It is not always neccessary for folks to agree in order to remain civil, and in reality this topic comes completely down to a personal choice. IMO there are too many variables to come up with absolutes. I have always felt it best to lay the reasoning for a choice out, let others see it, compare it to others reasoning and make their choice with a "no harm, no foul" attitude. This isn't politics, the effects of ones decisions are localized.

OctoberRust
08-26-2012, 19:06
DOn't twist the words, you were the one calling me a lier because you failed to read the post. I am not the one defending the 9mm here, that would be you. I am rleaxed, even in my fduped state. I shoot just fine w/ just about anything from 9mm to 44mag, so I rarely let caliber make the decsion but platform. Kind of my entire point, but you did miss all that.:dunno:


What's a "lier" ?:dunno:

SGT278ACR
08-26-2012, 19:14
One thing is for certain.... if you get hit by any of them.... you're in for a bad day. Carry and trust the round you want to. People have been killed by .22LR, .50cal and everything in between and in all circumstances and situations. For all the Einsteins of the ballistic world.... go out and have a duel royale with all your different calibers. I guarantee you'll all need either medical attention or an undertaker. :dunno::upeyes:

Kingarthurhk
08-26-2012, 19:18
A cop in my department investigated a suicide attempt where a .45 ACP to the head failed.

He used a 230 hardball and (I think) unintentionally angled the pistol at the moment he shot. Ball went in near the ear, traveled around the inside of his skull between the bone and brain, and blew out the top. :wow:

He survived it with no brain damage - well, no more than he already had. :crazy:

Knocked him colder than a wedge though! :ambulance:

That is because there is no one stop shot. That is a myth. There have been incidents of guys high on PCP taking .357 magnums to the head and keep on fighting until the body itself shut down.

Some rounds do better with less. Shot placement is key, and having something that puts more kinetic damage into the target is also a factor.

Berto
08-26-2012, 20:01
I like 9mmP. It's a good round and permits a decent power/weight ratio in this era of smaller and smaller pistols. Allows lots of firepower and control in a service pistol.
Do I thinks it's better than .357sig, .40 or .45acp? No.
I do think it's one of the most size efficient catridges of the last 100+ years though.

JW1178
08-26-2012, 22:33
I find if quite odd how 9mm fans look at the expanded 9mm bullet and the expanded .45 or even .40 for that matter and say "there is barely a difference".

avenues165
08-26-2012, 23:37
I like them all, for one reason or another. The 9mm is a good choice for some people and the .45 is a good choice for others. I like the .40 s&w and 357 sig, but I don't have any magic crystal ball to know that they are better than the rest. They are just my preference. They all have their places.

I am just glad that 1) We live in a country we can argue about these things and I hope that continues for the entire history of the US, and 2) That more choices will get more folks interested in shooting and hopefully more folks interested in CFPs.

Whatever you shoot learn to shoot it well.

cowboy1964
08-26-2012, 23:40
Many have said this but I haven't seen anyone prove it.

Who has proven the opposite either?

uz2bUSMC
08-27-2012, 05:15
Who has proven the opposite either?

Didn't say it was proven. However, everyone likes to quote the mantra of Fackler and all of his IWBA cronies. As if he has proven that all service calibers are equal but in reality he merely "says" it over and over. All the koolaid drinkers believe it as fact.

glock20c10mm
08-27-2012, 18:20
I have heard a lot of praise for the 9mm caliber but I have also heard a lot against it. Mainly I hear the old bigger is better which I disagree with since a headshot with a .22lr will kill. I'm basically curious if there are any good examples of a 9mm outwright failing as opposed to debating whether on should carry the biggest caliber possible or not.
Every round has outright failed, while at other times also accomplished perfection as we would have it.

That said, it is disingenuious to suggest my choices are limited to 9mm and the biggest caliber possible.

I neither have interest in 9mm or anything in .50 caliber. There are both pistol cartridges with bullets smaller in caliber than the 9mm that I would prefer over 9mm, and cartridges that make use of a larger calibers than 9mm without going to 50 caliber.

And no, you were not "basically curious", as you let out of the bag after your thread starting post. What is clear is that you have much to learn.

glock20c10mm
08-27-2012, 18:44
The bottom line for me is this: There is no difference between 9x19, .40, .357, .45 when you look at the best SD americian ammo. The FBI set a standard and all of the big ammo manufactures made ammo in the service calibers that match that standard. If you go outside the FBI test environment, then the calibers may behave differently. But again, you will find cases where 9mm is best and cases where other calibers work better. More powerful (or bigger) is not necessary more effective or better. This months NRA magizine has an article that is interesting on this subject.
Much of what you say is simply true. The problem is that the FBI protocols don't take into account all wounding effects. They limit the protocol to bullet expansion and penetration depth through various levels of barriers, and from there into ballistic gel.

For them this works well for at least a couple of reasons. One being that all their agents must be able to effectively control what they shoot. In other words it would be anti beneficially to have them all shooting full house 10mm loads. Another being that they are a large agency on a budget. This is another reason it is not always wise for them to choose a higher energy round, as a higher energy round creates more wear and tear on the platform, therefore costing them more money in the long run.

Bottom line, they use the best reasoning they can in choosing what they do, allowing all of their agents to shoot well enough, and at the same time keeping the bean counters happy. This equates to any bullet of any common self defense cartridge reliably expanding to the highest point possible, while at the same time keeping within budget.

For me as an individual that reasoning flies right out the window which means I have chosen a higher energy round than they would normally consider, that does wreak more havoc on living adversary targets.

glock20c10mm
08-27-2012, 18:52
And this small bit of opinion doesn't take into consideration other factors that may lead to someone choosing one caliber over another, or one platform over others.
PRECISELY!!! It's beyond me, for any that were not born yesterday, how that never stops needing to be repeated.

Well said!

glock20c10mm
08-27-2012, 18:54
I find if quite odd how 9mm fans look at the expanded 9mm bullet and the expanded .45 or even .40 for that matter and say "there is barely a difference".
Me too! And that's not even the half of it.

JW1178
08-28-2012, 14:18
Well, nobody here really downs the 9mm much, but dare say the 9mm isn't perfect, here comes the fanboys to vigeroisly defend their favorite caliber. That should tell you a lot about them.

They have an argument for every argument and a question for every question. Most of us more logical people respect it for what it is, but know the pro's and con's.

Roering
08-28-2012, 15:28
I like the 9mm for plinking out of my G23.

Is there a reason why I would use less than a .40 S&W if I have it?

uz2bUSMC
08-28-2012, 17:21
Well, nobody here really downs the 9mm much, but dare say the 9mm isn't perfect, here comes the fanboys to vigeroisly defend their favorite caliber. That should tell you a lot about them.

They have an argument for every argument and a question for every question. Most of us more logical people respect it for what it is, but know the pro's and con's.

If you are a 9mm is fine type, there really is no need to get into any type of caliber war, yet they do. I imagine the ones who are truly fine with it really are and stick to threads in advancements within caliber or new productions. This, of course, is understandable. The ones ones who are up in arms about there pet 9mm are the ones who need reassurance to quell their insecurities. If they can somehow convince others that all service cartridges are the same they can also convince themselves.

M&P Shooter
08-28-2012, 17:48
One night while on patrol in Iraq I came across a Iraqi armed with a AK-47 at first he was startled but then he looked at my sidearm and said "Sir is that a Beretta 9mm" I said "Yes it is sir" Then he laughed really hard and throw his AK in the sand and put his hands up and said "It's On Girly 9mm Man" I drew my 9mm and put 2 rounds in his face, he spit them out and said "That got me kinda of excited" He hit me with a left hook in the mouth and as I fell to one knee I pumped 3 more 9mm's in his chest. He pounded on his chest and said "Thanks for putting my boil 9mm boy toy"

He started to mount me for ground and pound as I finished off my mag in his temple as he just kept laughing and beating me. Thank God my buddy showed up carrying a 1911 as he put 1 round through his leg which ripped the whole leg off from the hip as he bleed out.

P.S. I just purchased a Glock 19 which I started carrying everywhere. I keep her loaded with 124gr +p jhp's

fredj338
08-28-2012, 18:38
What's a "lier" ?:dunno:

Yeah, there is always a typing Nazi on the forum.:upeyes:

M&P Shooter
08-28-2012, 18:40
Yeah, there is always a typing Nazi on the forum.:upeyes:
You could have put a ! after Yeah and used there's instead of there is:tongueout::rofl: