Are all religions represented here...? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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brokenprism
08-22-2012, 23:47
I gather that since this forum is for 'Religious' Issues, it represents a diverse group of people and positions. Since I'm new here, I'll ask. Are there any Christians in this crowd? Any students of the Protestant Reformers? Thanks.

G23Gen4TX
08-23-2012, 01:02
Yes. We respect and hate all religions equally.

NMG26
08-23-2012, 03:52
I gather that since this forum is for 'Religious' Issues, it represents a diverse group of people and positions. Since I'm new here, I'll ask. Are there any Christians in this crowd? Any students of the Protestant Reformers? Thanks.

Welcome to GTRI. If you have "Religious Issues" we will field them.

I enjoy talking about whatever faith people might have. Seems like the most vocal of the Christian sects is the SDA.
I have reformed myself right out of the religion of Christianity.

You are welcome.



.

brokenprism
08-23-2012, 13:43
Yes. We respect and hate all religions equally.


: ) I've read your posts, and I respect your opinions. I'm tired of religion being a don't-ask-don't-tell experience. We should be able to talk about everything.

I'm a door-to-door missionary's worst nightmare -- an informed Calvinist. That's controversial even among orthodox bodies, so I often find myself on the spot. I don't force, cram, or resort to insults, but sometimes the mere act of standing firmly for what you believe is interpreted as a hostile act.

I hope we'll engage.

Bren
08-23-2012, 13:51
I gather that since this forum is for 'Religious' Issues, it represents a diverse group of people and positions. Since I'm new here, I'll ask. Are there any Christians in this crowd? Any students of the Protestant Reformers? Thanks.

Yeah, that about covers all of them.:whistling:

We have several times as many different religions in the average prison as we have here. This is pretty much atheists, protestants, catholics and a jew or 2.

No odinists, rastafarians, satanists, vodouists, Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, none of the many African/Australian/American native religions, not even a Muslim or Scientologist. The list of religions we don't have is probably hundresds of times longer than the list of religions we do have.

If we need more diversity, I do have a Satanic Bible and find their beliefs more acceptable than christians, so you can call me one if you want - I'm not, but I probably know more about them than anybody you've met who claims to be one or, especially, anybody who claims they "used to be."

youngdocglock
08-23-2012, 13:51
I worship firearms, and large engines. You respect my religion i will respect yours.

I have made this post on my phone. If I spell like a two year old. Blame Android. Not me :)

brokenprism
08-23-2012, 14:06
I worship firearms...:)

My Dad, a religionless liberal (unless you count his political persuasion as a religion), would put me in your camp. This gives him TWO reasons to look down on me. ; )

brokenprism
08-23-2012, 14:16
Yeah, that about covers all of them.:whistling:

I don't get this. What did I miss?

This is pretty much atheists, protestants, catholics and a jew or 2.

This is curious. Why would an atheist haunt a forum like this? For instance, I'm not a dentist, so I don't read journals on orthodontia. If it's not about 'religion' per se, or a quest for knowledge on the road to conversion to something, it must be about something else. Malicious mischief? Real anger? Or just the "Issues" part of Religious Issues? I'd be interested to know. I had a roommate once who took pleasure in goading me to ... something. Respond, whatever. He thought of the most blasphemous things you could say, said 'em, and then watched. I disappointed him consistently.

NMG26
08-23-2012, 14:47
This is curious. Why would an atheist haunt a forum like this?


Why should atheists be left out of the fun? Atheists often have "religious issues". There are two threads a few down on this page about atheism being a religion and atheism not being a religion.

Atheists tend to give very thought provoking arguments about faith. I am often challenged by them and am glad they are on this board.


.

Vic Hays
08-23-2012, 15:25
I don't get this. What did I miss?



This is curious. Why would an atheist haunt a forum like this? For instance, I'm not a dentist, so I don't read journals on orthodontia. If it's not about 'religion' per se, or a quest for knowledge on the road to conversion to something, it must be about something else. Malicious mischief? Real anger? Or just the "Issues" part of Religious Issues? I'd be interested to know. I had a roommate once who took pleasure in goading me to ... something. Respond, whatever. He thought of the most blasphemous things you could say, said 'em, and then watched. I disappointed him consistently.

I think there are a variety of reasons atheists post here. Maybe they are fearful that God might exist so they want to keep telling themselves and everyone else that He doesn't. They certainly wouldn't want to be accountable to God.
Some may be actually seeking to know God and don't know how to find Him. Some are afraid of what religion and politics have done in the past and threaten to do in the future.

Welcome to the forum. I hope you are a Truth seeker.

Bren
08-23-2012, 15:45
I don't get this. What did I miss?

This is curious. Why would an atheist haunt a forum like this? For instance, I'm not a dentist, so I don't read journals on orthodontia. If it's not about 'religion' per se, or a quest for knowledge on the road to conversion to something, it must be about something else. Malicious mischief? Real anger? Or just the "Issues" part of Religious Issues? I'd be interested to know. I had a roommate once who took pleasure in goading me to ... something. Respond, whatever. He thought of the most blasphemous things you could say, said 'em, and then watched. I disappointed him consistently.

Are you joking or trolling? The "I'll pretend I don't get it to draw out some BS debate" thing is way overdone on the internet already.

Just in case you are half serious - the forum is religious issues. Most of the people on earth are not christians and religion is an issue for all of them. For those who don't believe in any religion, the issue is mainly having to deal with those who do and having to live under governments dominated by them.

You don't have to be schizophrenic to be interested in psychiatry.

JBnTX
08-23-2012, 15:50
Atheists tend to give very thought provoking arguments about faith.

.


Are you serious?...:dunno:

Atheists know as much about faith as an ant knows about rocket science.

NMG26
08-23-2012, 15:58
Are you serious?...:dunno:

Atheists know as much about faith as an ant knows about rocket science.

Not so.

Many atheists were theist at one time. Many atheists spent years as theists.

Many atheists are only partial atheists. They are agnostic on some issues.

Free your mind from small mindedness.



.

JBnTX
08-23-2012, 16:05
Not so.

Many atheists were theist at one time. Many atheists spent years as theists.

Many atheists are only partial atheists. They are agnostic on some issues.

Free your mind from small mindedness.



.


Sounds like you're making excuses for atheists?

Free YOUR mind from non-believers.

AlexHassin
08-23-2012, 16:08
I don't get this. What did I miss?



This is curious. Why would an atheist haunt a forum like this? For instance, I'm not a dentist, so I don't read journals on orthodontia. If it's not about 'religion' per se, or a quest for knowledge on the road to conversion to something, it must be about something else. Malicious mischief? Real anger? Or just the "Issues" part of Religious Issues? I'd be interested to know. I had a roommate once who took pleasure in goading me to ... something. Respond, whatever. He thought of the most blasphemous things you could say, said 'em, and then watched. I disappointed him consistently.


watch the news. all over the world their are religious people makeing issues for others.

as for what i am, im pretty solidly in the athist end of the spectrem but will say im anything if it helps me get laid. so i have been; jewish, christian pagan, catholic, protostant, muslim, jedi knight. i think that is it

JerryVO
08-23-2012, 16:09
Anyone representing the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

http://www.venganza.org/

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using Tapatalk 2

NMG26
08-23-2012, 16:15
Sounds like you're making excuses for atheists?

Free YOUR mind from non-believers.


Wrong again.

I was adressing your post in which you say "atheists know very little about faith (paraphrased)".

I can not free my mind of "nonbelievers".

I've seen Christians claim to be proud "infidels."

Everyone believes in something. Faith is a rather large and wonderful subject. We put faith in people, institutions, ideas, and pretty much everything. I like atheists and the way that they challenge my faith. I am not ashamed of that. It is healthy. A faith unchallenged does not grow to be a true love of God.



.

JBnTX
08-23-2012, 16:31
Wrong again.

I was adressing your post in which you say "atheists know very little about faith (paraphrased)".

I can not free my mind of "nonbelievers".

I've seen Christians claim to be proud "infidels."

Everyone believes in something. Faith is a rather large and wonderful subject. We put faith in people, institutions, ideas, and pretty much everything. I like atheists and the way that they challenge my faith. I am not ashamed of that. It is healthy. A faith unchallenged does not grow to be a true love of God.

.


Whatever.:wavey:

It's just that I don't need my faith in God validated by an atheist.

Bren
08-23-2012, 16:41
Anyone representing the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

http://www.venganza.org/

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using Tapatalk 2

I did see something a while back from a Soldier who got it on his dog tags and was allwoed to keep his spaghetti monster book as a religious text in basic training. None here, unless you count all of the atheists.

High-Gear
08-23-2012, 16:44
Are you serious?...:dunno:

Atheists know as much about faith as an ant knows about rocket science.

I don't have to be an expert on French Fashion to see the Emperor isn't wearing clothes! :tongueout:

High-Gear
08-23-2012, 16:46
Anyone representing the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

http://www.venganza.org/

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using Tapatalk 2

Right here, fellow Pastafarian! I've been touched by his noodly Goodness, and preach about intelligent falling!

Cavalry Doc
08-23-2012, 19:50
Agnostics for the Constitution right here> http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p158/CavalryDoc/CavDoc-3.gif

brokenprism
08-23-2012, 20:42
Are you joking or trolling? The "I'll pretend I don't get it to draw out some BS debate" thing is way overdone on the internet already.

Did I strike a nerve or something? Didn't intend to. I honestly didn't understand why you said "Yeah, that about covers all of them" with the eye rolling whistle, since it was a non sequitir reply to my very specific and limited question -- are there any Christians here, in this forum for all religions? It seems you interpreted that (now that you've said more) as me narrowly appraising the forum's reach or appeal. I get it. It's for everybody, a melting pot, and as goes the society, apparently so goes it here, where it appears -- from what I've read so far -- that Christians are a favored target, but I'd still like to engage one. Atheists also appear to get a raw deal here from 'religious' sounding people -- that's all I can attest to so far. They sound religious. At any rate, I don't see the virtue of provoking them.

The issue of why atheists come here is separate, but equally interesting to me. One or two allude to defection from a prior life of devotion, but that's impossible, so I'm still hoping for a rational answer. I think it's about mischief, which is fine. No one is 'looking' for God, so it's not about tentative exploration.

Since it popped up in this thread, the word 'faith' has suffered here recently. I wonder if it's widely known that it's not a synonym for 'belief'? It's a substance, and everybody doesn't have it, including people who 'believe' things. Hence, there's no such thing as a 'faith community,' or 'faith tradition.' "You are saved by grace through faith, and that not of yourselves : it is the gift of God." That's a very limited definition. It comes from outside, not inside. This is the key to the previous paragraph: anyone who ever had faith can not have lost it. The gift is irrevocable and results in an eternal change.

Whoever alluded to a Government with an oppressive Christian agenda: I disagree. Ours is one of the most anti-Christian governments in history, regardless of which party is in office. That went out with Madison, and was only briefly resurrected by Lincoln, and [I]that light went out on Saturday Apr 15, 1865.

Thanks for the welcoming posts. It's good to be here.

fowl intent
08-23-2012, 21:08
Recovering Christian here!

NMG26
08-23-2012, 21:30
Since it popped up in this thread, the word 'faith' has suffered here recently. I wonder if it's widely known that it's not a synonym for 'belief'? It's a substance, and everybody doesn't have it, including people who 'believe' things. Hence, there's no such thing as a 'faith community,' or 'faith tradition.' "You are saved by grace through faith, and that not of yourselves [i.e., it's not self-generated]: it is the gift of God." That's a very limited definition. It comes from outside, not inside. This is the key to the previous paragraph: anyone who ever had faith can not have lost it. The gift is irrevocable and results in an eternal change.


Calvinist right?
I come from the Armenian side.

The word faith and believe are the same word. Pistas and pistou.

You are going to have a lot of fun here. You are here to "engage" Christians in sectarian war. Happens in many threads here.

Faith changes. It grows. We learn and we change. The only thing that keeps one from changing and growing in their faith is dogmatic doctrine.

Doctrine becomes lord. You believe that your sect is the only one that has it right. I look forward to watching your engagement. I tire quickly of sectarian wars and who is right about the Bible wars. But I'll chime in every now and then.

Have fun.

AlexHassin
08-23-2012, 22:14
The issue of why atheists come here is separate, but equally interesting to me. One or two allude to defection from a prior life of devotion, but that's impossible, so I'm still hoping for a rational answer. I think it's about mischief, which is fine. No one is 'looking' for God, so it's not about tentative exploration.



What is impossible about someone becomeing an Atheist?
that is my girlfreinds story in the religious department

interestly the biggist fights are between the christians that cant decide whitch of the 33,000 plus versions is the right one. each is shore it is theirs

Syclone538
08-23-2012, 22:40
I'm atheist and agnostic.
I'm libertarian, almost to the point of being anarchist.

I was raised Christian, and started questioning it at around 12 years old. By 20, I figured the odds of any god existing to be extremely low.

I post here to correct the misconceptions and lies about atheists, and because I find the discussions interesting.

I'm curious why the majority of all people believe things I consider myths and see no reason to believe other then that's what people around you believe.




I think this needs posted in almost every thread in this forum, so here it is.

http://ts2.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=5002705570103853&id=680226005c2162f249b25712901d674b

Animal Mother
08-23-2012, 23:16
The issue of why atheists come here is separate, but equally interesting to me. One or two allude to defection from a prior life of devotion, but that's impossible, so I'm still hoping for a rational answer. How is that impossible? What makes it an irrational answer?
I think it's about mischief, which is fine. No one is 'looking' for God, so it's not about tentative exploration. It's a forum about religious issues. When people say, "Because I believe X, schools must teach that the Earth is 6000 years old or that evolution is false" that's an issue. When people say, "Because I believe Y, everyone who does not believe Y must either change their minds or be eliminated" that's a religious issue. When people say, "Because I believe Z, Z should be enshrined in law and protected so that I don't get offended" that's a religious issue. When people say things like, "the unconstitutional "separation" of church and state (a corrupt concept and misstatement of the Founding Father's words and inentions) is cherished chiefly by those who despise -- not 'religion,' since there are innumerable godless religions welcomed and assisted on every hand -- but the Gospel" that's a huge religious issue.
Whoever alluded to a Government with an oppressive Christian agenda: I disagree. Ours is one of the most anti-Christian governments in history, regardless of which party is in office. That went out with Madison, and was only briefly resurrected by Lincoln, and that light went out on Saturday Apr 15, 1865. You're citing Lincoln as a pro-religion President? You've really got to stop listening to Barton.

brokenprism
08-23-2012, 23:20
What is impossible about someone becomeing an Atheist?

I wasn't saying it's impossible for someone to 'become' an atheist -- I was saying that no one who has abandoned Christianity (the real stuff) was a Christian in the first place.

"They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us." 1 John 2:19

R. C. Sproul was invited to speak to a group of atheists. When he concluded, he said (his words) "Your problem isn't that you don't believe in God. Your problem is that you hate him." Our natural state is a state of rebellion and hostility to God. It manifests itself blatantly, subtly, and all ways in between, including in the expression of idolatory, or a false religion. Only the regenerated believer (who can take no credit for it) actually loves God. The natural man prefers an idol. the atheist, sick of all the idols, washes his hands of it in disgust, as he should.

brokenprism
08-23-2012, 23:28
Calvinist right?
I come from the Armenian side. Doctrine becomes lord. You believe that your sect is the only one that has it right.

Howdy NMG. Nice to meet you. I think I know where you're coming from -- that in the end there is "no creed but Christ" and that "doctrine divides." It's supposed to. Like a sword. We're urged to "be transformed by the renewing of your mind." (The transformation of the heart is assumed.) The regenerated experience is intensely intellectual. And Paul urged Jude to "contend for the faith once for all delivered to the saints." He was asking him to preserve the doctine, exactly as delivered, because it is our habit to corrupt it, ignore it, add to and subtract from it. What the Reformers recovered of the Gospel in the 16th century is almost entirely gone.

brokenprism
08-23-2012, 23:31
When people say things like [you quote me from anotehr thread] that's a huge religious issue.

Good. Then I'm in the right place!

You're citing Lincoln as a pro-religion President? You've really got to stop listening to Barton.

I don't know who Barton is. Fill me in.

I wouldn't necessarily say Lincoln was pro-religion. I would say he had a sincere appreciation of God. Maybe not the Lord, but God.

Animal Mother
08-23-2012, 23:33
I wasn't saying it's impossible for someone to 'become' an atheist -- I was saying that no one who has abandoned Christianity (the real stuff) was a Christian in the first place. No True Scotsman: The Religious version. Always a favorite.
R. C. Sproul was invited to speak to a group of atheists. When he concluded, he said (his words) "Your problem isn't that you don't believe in God. Your problem is that you hate him." Our natural state is a state of rebellion and hostility to God. It manifests itself blatantly, subtly, and all ways in between, including in the expression of idolatory, or a false religion. Only the regenerated believer (who can take no credit for it) actually loves God. The natural man prefers an idol. the atheist, sick of all the idols, washes his hands of it in disgust, as he should.Telling people what they believe always goes over like gangbusters. It isn't that you don't believe in Odin and therefore follow the shallow imitation YHWH, it's that you hate Odin. Stop following the false religion and come back to the true Allfather.

Syclone538
08-23-2012, 23:36
...
R. C. Sproul was invited to speak to a group of atheists. When he concluded, he said (his words) "Your problem isn't that you don't believe in God. Your problem is that you hate him." ...

R. C. Sproul hates leprechauns. See how much sense that makes?

Anyone that says atheists hate a god doesn't know what atheist means, or is just lying.

Animal Mother
08-23-2012, 23:38
I don't know who Barton is. Fill me in. That's odd, his books are listed along the side of the page you linked in your earlier response and the article itself is completely dependent on his erroneous work.
I wouldn't necessarily say Lincoln was pro-religion. I would say he had a sincere appreciation of God. Maybe not the Lord, but God.The Lord and God are two separate beings now? Is either one the same as the Father figure of the trinity? What leads to this conclusion about Lincoln?

brokenprism
08-24-2012, 00:02
...I figured the odds of any god existing to be extremely low.

I'm curious why the majority of all people believe things ... other then that's what people around you believe

Syclone, where is a Christian on that graphic? Upper left?

I actually had to dig for what I believe. I was welcomed into an Assy of God church in 1975, with no background in church or religion or the Bible, and no reason not to believe they had the very oracles of God in their hands. They were very nice people, but what they said, and what I read, did not agree. I went with what I read.

You spoke of myths. I think there's a difference between a seven-headed hydra and an empty grave in Jerusalem that changed the world. Nevertheless, Christianity doesn't offer itself in the marketplace of ideas as a myth, or a story, or anything else. It's ambivalent about whether anyone believes it or not. Jesus actively turned people away, and spoke in parables precisely to obscure His message from all but a select few. "As a result of this [long speech Jesus gave in John 6] many of His <SUP class=crossreference value='(DD (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NASB-26324DD))'></SUP>disciples <SUP class=crossreference value='(DE (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NASB-26324DE))'></SUP>withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore." He did it on purpose.

As for the existence of god being against the odds, I'd evaluate my criteria. Don't see Him? Hear Him? What if He's already said all He meant to say?

"The <SUP class=crossreference value='(C (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NASB-13948C))'></SUP>kings of the earth take their stand
And the rulers take counsel together
<SUP class=crossreference value='(D (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NASB-13948D))'></SUP>Against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying,
“Let us <SUP class=crossreference value='(F (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NASB-13949F))'></SUP>tear their fetters apart
And cast away their cords from us!”

He who sits in the heavens <SUP class=crossreference value='(G (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NASB-13950G))'></SUP>shall laugh..."


Anyone who didn't hear Him the last time He spoke will hear Him loud and clear the next time.

domin8ss
08-24-2012, 00:22
I'm a Cultural Mormon. That is very different from practicing Mormon. This means I was raised with Mormons and grew up in a culture based on Mormon beliefs (aka raised in Utah). However, I do not go to church or practice the religion.

Mormons believe the trinity is 3 separate beings. To explain them as one seems incestuous when your put half a thought to it. After all, when Jesus was crucified he cried out to his father, and I don't think it was Joseph.

As for why I don't practice any religion, there are many reasons. Some have to do with the bigotry associated with religion. Officer never seen anything more divisive. Also, the scriptures are incomplete. Just look at The Book of Jubilee, and other books of forgotten doctrine. Also, and this one pretty much solidified it for me, the first 4 texts of The New Testament have been proven to have been written 200 years after the crucifixion of Jesus, at the earliest. I guess Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John lived a very long time.

Syclone538
08-24-2012, 00:24
Syclone, where is a Christian on that graphic? Upper left?
...

Just left, upper or lower depends on the specific Christian in question.

...
and no reason not to believe they had the very oracles of God in their hands.
...

This is a fundamental difference in how we think. I have no reason to believe extraordinary claims without any evidence, let alone extraordinary evidence.

...
You spoke of myths. I think there's a difference between a seven-headed hydra and an empty grave in Jerusalem that changed the world.
...

I think the difference is that people still believe one and not the other.

...
As for the existence of god being against the odds, I'd evaluate my criteria. Don't see Him? Hear Him? What if He's already said all He meant to say?
...

Then I will never see any reason to believe in him.

...
Anyone who didn't hear Him the last time He spoke will hear Him loud and clear the next time.

Can I expect this before I die?

G23Gen4TX
08-24-2012, 01:02
: ) I've read your posts, and I respect your opinions. I'm tired of religion being a don't-ask-don't-tell experience. We should be able to talk about everything.

I'm a door-to-door missionary's worst nightmare -- an informed Calvinist. That's controversial even among orthodox bodies, so I often find myself on the spot. I don't force, cram, or resort to insults, but sometimes the mere act of standing firmly for what you believe is interpreted as a hostile act.

I hope we'll engage.

I admit to not know much about Calvinism but I will read a bit about it.

You are more than welcome to "bring it on" :wavey:

ksg0245
08-24-2012, 03:26
I think this needs posted in almost every thread in this forum, so here it is.

http://ts2.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=5002705570103853&id=680226005c2162f249b25712901d674b

It's usually ignored by the people who would most benefit from it.

ksg0245
08-24-2012, 03:33
The issue of why atheists come here is separate, but equally interesting to me. One or two allude to defection from a prior life of devotion, but that's impossible, so I'm still hoping for a rational answer.

The rational answer is that some people reject the assertion of deities because the evidence doesn't convince them deities exist. Why would it be impossible for a believer to think about the lack of evidence and then reject the belief?

NMG26
08-24-2012, 03:47
Howdy NMG. Nice to meet you. I think I know where you're coming from -- that in the end there is "no creed but Christ" and that "doctrine divides." It's supposed to. Like a sword. We're urged to "be transformed by the renewing of your mind." (The transformation of the heart is assumed.) The regenerated experience is intensely intellectual. And Paul urged Jude to "contend for the faith once for all delivered to the saints." He was asking him to preserve the doctine, exactly as delivered, because it is our habit to corrupt it, ignore it, add to and subtract from it. What the Reformers recovered of the Gospel in the 16th century is almost entirely gone.

Hi bp, it is nice to meet you as well.
I find Calvinism easier to fight on a philosophical, theological basis rather then a Biblical one. The thing about the Bible is that we all interpret it for our own gain.

We did have another Calvinist here some time ago. He has not posted in quite a while and I can not remember his name.

I have some brushing up to do, and will learn much from you, I am sure.

NMG26
08-24-2012, 03:56
What the Reformers recovered of the Gospel in the 16th century is almost entirely gone.

How can it be almost entirely gone? We have the Bible, the writings of Calvin, the four centuries of debate are pretty well documented. Maybe you mean it is not popular.

In your view, the rest of the church has gone after heresy and is missing out on the grace of God. Only a "few" have been given this gift you call "faith".

Bren
08-24-2012, 04:26
What is impossible about someone becomeing an Atheist?
that is my girlfreinds story in the religious department

interestly the biggist fights are between the christians that cant decide whitch of the 33,000 plus versions is the right one. each is shore it is theirs

I still haven't figured out why he thinks the Religious Issues forum is a pro-religion or something that would be equivilent to atheists showing up in church.

Apparently it has something to do with pretending that only the religious have any reason to discuss religion and that christian is the only religion.

High-Gear
08-24-2012, 06:30
Broken Prism,

If I recall correctly, Lincoln was derided as an Atheist in his own time. He never joined a church, and only occasionally attended at his wifes request.

Animal Mother
08-24-2012, 21:33
You spoke of myths. I think there's a difference between a seven-headed hydra and an empty grave in Jerusalem that changed the world. One is a mythical tomb, the other is a mythical snake?

Syclone538
08-24-2012, 22:02
One is a mythical tomb, the other is a mythical snake?

I see no reason to doubt the existence of an empty grave...

muscogee
08-25-2012, 08:37
Why would an atheist haunt a forum like this? For instance, I'm not a dentist, so I don't read journals on orthodontia. If it's not about 'religion' per se, or a quest for knowledge on the road to conversion to something, it must be about something else. Malicious mischief? Real anger? Or just the "Issues" part of Religious Issues? I'd be interested to know. I had a roommate once who took pleasure in goading me to ... something. Respond, whatever. He thought of the most blasphemous things you could say, said 'em, and then watched. I disappointed him consistently.

For millennium religious fanatics and rulers using religion to their own ends have bullied the rest of us into acquiescence. This is the only place I know of where those of us who disagree can have a discussion with religious people and push back. We certainly can't go to church and express our views. We would be physically thrown out or arrested.

As for your reiteration of the ubiquitous, “No true Christian would do that” argument (i.e., the no true Scotsman argument), I can assure there are many former true believers in this forum. We really wanted to believe. We knew God, we read the Bible, prayed, went to church, and so on for decades until realizing the whole thing didn't make any sense. I've seen people in this forum turn from religion. I've never seen any nonbelievers in this forum change their minds and embrace any religion.

Much of the Bible is silly. Talking snakes, 900 year old men, an omnipotent God impregnating a virgin so he can be born, die for our sins (but not really since he can't die), come back from the dead (although he's not seen by anyone of significance like Herod, Pilot, or the Emperor of Rome), and then disappears never to be seen again in anything but people's imaginations. Even though he said many of the people who heard him talk would live to see his return, the end of the World, and his followers taken to Heaven and everyone else sent to Hell, it still hasn't happened. But it could, any day now. That's not what the scriptures say, but believers never let that get in their way. I could go like this a very long time, but if you don't get the point by now, you won't.

Welcome to the forum. Hope you're tough enough to play in this league.

NMG26
08-25-2012, 08:48
As for your reiteration of the ubiquitous, “No true Christian would do that” argument (i.e., the no true Scotsman argument), I can assure there are many former true believers in this forum. We really wanted to believe.

Not according to Calvin.

You can not successfully argue a Calvinist into thinking any different. If you did they would not be Calvinists any more. Google 5 points of Calvinism.

I was looking forward to "engaging" BP but I don't think he thinks this forum is going to fit his desire of Christian debate.



.

Cavalry Doc
08-25-2012, 09:43
R. C. Sproul hates leprechauns. See how much sense that makes?

Anyone that says atheists hate a god doesn't know what atheist means, or is just lying.

Probably right in most cases. Some atheists hate other religions though, that much is clear.

brokenprism
08-25-2012, 11:15
This is the only place I know of where those of us who disagree can have a discussion with religious people and push back. We certainly can't go to church and express our views. We would be physically thrown out or arrested.


Awesome. There should be such a place, and evidently there is.

There were too many responses to answer. Many of them look fun.

As for your reiteration of the ubiquitous, “No true Christian would do that” argument (i.e., the no true Scotsman argument), I can assure there are many former true believers in this forum. We really wanted to believe. We knew God, we read the Bible, prayed, went to church, and so on for decades until realizing the whole thing didn't make any sense. I've seen people in this forum turn from religion. I've never seen any nonbelievers in this forum change their minds and embrace any religion.

I can see now that I won't be able to explain anything out of the Bible -- anything that will stick -- because at a minimum, someone will ask "Whose Bible? Which translation?" etc. I think the real game here is to grind long-cherished axes, pick holes in the positions of believers, and ask "If God is all powerful can He make a rock so big even He can't lift it?"-type questions. You don't appear to be that guy, but in general, I think this forum is wrongly named. It's a muckraking forum for people with atheist Tourettes. Nothing wrong with that -- just want to know where I am. But it's something less than a 'Religious Issues' forum, at least until the Adherents of Anything get here. (And yes, resisting religion can be your issue.) Nevertheless, to answer the question that wasn't really a question: I hold the position that if a person ever was truly regenerated, they are still, and if they are not still, they never were. I can't see into you or know your experiences but 1 John says it is so, and now I have to choose: Him or (excuse me) you. The idea that once you have truly come in, you don't leave, is consistent with what the Bible says about salvation. If Jesus says "He that believes in Me has eternal life" that life is eternal. As in, starting now. Endless life of another kind (not bios, not psuche, but zoe). Salvation is not a lightswitch. It doesn't get turned on and off at will, and if it did, it would certainly not be our will.

Anyway, at the point where the Bible and the world disagree, I simply accept what the Bible says (the version without an Apocrypha, but no time for that argument) and dismiss the rest.


I could go like this a very long time, but if you don't get the point by now, you won't. Welcome to the forum. Hope you're tough enough to play in this league.

Thanks! If I don't stay, it will be because I'm tired. I can write shorter posts over in General Glocking.

Meant to say Hi to Cavalry Doc. One of my hobbies is making Sioux beadwork, so I've read miles and miles about the cavalry.

Syclone538
08-25-2012, 11:47
Probably right in most cases. Some atheists hate other religions though, that much is clear.

Well yeah, we know religions exist, so people can hate them.

brokenprism
08-25-2012, 12:36
Not according to Calvin.

You can not successfully argue a Calvinist into thinking any different. If you did they would not be Calvinists any more. Google 5 points of Calvinism.

I was looking forward to "engaging" BP but I don't think he thinks this forum is going to fit his desire of Christian debate.

If you mean I don't think I'll meet another like-minded believer who loves Glocks, you're probably right, but it doesn't mean I won't learn something here. :wavey:

I came to point out what you already know -- that Calvin would not have appreciated his name being attached to his teaching. As you know, Arminius (the heirs of whose teaching called Arminians) was among the Remonstrants who took exception to Luther's recovered gospel. He enumerated five things he disagreed with, but which Luther had written only briefly. Calvin counter-addressed those 5 issues and now they are known as the 5 points of Calvinism, but Calvin would say he was merely preaching the gospel that had been subsumed under the teachings of Rome for 1500 years. Luther and Calvin were both students of Augustine, and the three of them were simply articulating for a contempoirary audience the gospel of Christ as delivered by the Apostles who were 'sent' (the meaning of apostle) to do just that.

I'm going to start a thread to introduce (and give everyone something to shoot at ; ) the basic framework of what is called Calvinism, but since I believe it's no more nor less than the Gospel, I'm going to call it the Gospel. Anyone who disliked 'organized' religion before is going to hate this, but the thread deserves its own space. We wander off topic here a lot.

muscogee
08-25-2012, 15:28
I think this forum is wrongly named. It's a muckraking forum for people with atheist Tourettes. You realize one is a choice and the other is a mental illness? I'm not sure your analogy holds.

(And yes, resisting religion can be your issue.) My issue is eliminating religion. It's evil, hurtful, hypocritical and hateful. Like trial by ordeal, the Zodiac, and many other archaic ideas, it needs to go. I don't mean that as a personal attack. It's a cold blooded assessment of an obviously archaic concept.

Nevertheless, to answer the question that wasn't really a question: I hold the position that if a person ever was truly regenerated, they are still, and if they are not still, they never were. I can't see into you or know your experiences but 1 John says it is so, and now I have to choose: Him or (excuse me) you. The idea that once you have truly come in, you don't leave, is consistent with what the Bible says about salvation. If Jesus says "He that believes in Me has eternal life" that life is eternal. As in, starting now. Endless life of another kind (not bios, not psuche, but zoe). Salvation is not a lightswitch. It doesn't get turned on and off at will, and if it did, it would certainly not be our will.

NMG26 was right. He usually is. Your argument is logically flawed. It's circular among other things. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/No_True_Scotsman It's what the Southern Baptists do with their concept of, "Once saved, always saved". If you were saved then you can't become unsaved. That's how they get around saving children at 5 to 10 years of age only to have the children walk away from their religion when they're old enough to understand it for themselves.

Anyway, at the point where the Bible and the world disagree, I simply accept what the Bible says (the version without an Apocrypha, but no time for that argument) and dismiss the rest.

You don't accept it. You reject it without consideration. All Christians selectively believe the Bible.

Kingarthurhk
08-25-2012, 15:34
Calvinist right?
I come from the Armenian side.

The word faith and believe are the same word. Pistas and pistou.

You are going to have a lot of fun here. You are here to "engage" Christians in sectarian war. Happens in many threads here.

Faith changes. It grows. We learn and we change. The only thing that keeps one from changing and growing in their faith is dogmatic doctrine.

Doctrine becomes lord. You believe that your sect is the only one that has it right. I look forward to watching your engagement. I tire quickly of sectarian wars and who is right about the Bible wars. But I'll chime in every now and then.

Have fun.

You forgot to identify yourself as a member of the New Age movement.:supergrin:

muscogee
08-25-2012, 15:41
Calvin would say he was merely preaching the gospel that had been subsumed under the teachings of Rome for 1500 years. Can you elaborate?

Luther and Calvin were both students of Augustine, and the three of them were simply articulating for a contempoirary audience the gospel of Christ as delivered by the Apostles who were 'sent' (the meaning of apostle) to do just that. Roman Catholics, Mormons, and probably other do that as well.

I'm going to start a thread to introduce (and give everyone something to shoot at ; ) the basic framework of what is called Calvinism, but since I believe it's no more nor less than the Gospel, I'm going to call it the Gospel. Anyone who disliked 'organized' religion before is going to hate this, but the thread deserves its own space. We wander off topic here a lot. Sounds great. Will you include the Gospel according to Thomas and the Gospel according to Peter in the discussion?

NMG26
08-25-2012, 15:50
You forgot to identify yourself as a member of the New Age movement.:supergrin:

Slander!



:tongueout:




.

muscogee
08-25-2012, 15:52
You forgot to identify yourself as a member of the New Age movement.:supergrin:

Why must people stereotype? He is who he is. He doesn't have to fit in any box.

Kingarthurhk
08-25-2012, 15:56
Why must people stereotype? He is who he is. He doesn't have to fit in any box.


He let that cat out of the bag most recently, actually. He discusses being God as God within him and consulting an Oracle. These are actually hallmarks of the New Age. It is also part of an attempt to change Christianity from a biblical perspective to a New Age perspective. This trend has been going on for quite some time.

You might remember I have studied the world's religions. I am very familiar with the New Age. When I was 23 I was briefly engaged to one of its adherants.

NMG26
08-25-2012, 15:57
I'm going to start a thread to introduce (and give everyone something to shoot at ; ) the basic framework of what is called Calvinism, but since I believe it's no more nor less than the Gospel, I'm going to call it the Gospel. Anyone who disliked 'organized' religion before is going to hate this, but the thread deserves its own space. We wander off topic here a lot.

I'm in.

Glad you are going to start that thread.

I think that Calvin is a Master of scripture interpretation. I am sure you will be hard to beat.............except for philosophically and theologically.

NMG26
08-25-2012, 16:06
He let that cat out of the bag most recently, actually. He discusses being God as God within him and consulting an Oracle. These are actually hallmarks of the New Age. It is also part of an attempt to change Christianity from a biblical perspective to a New Age perspective. This trend has been going on for quite some time.

You might remember I have studied the world's religions. I am very familiar with the New Age. When I was 23 I was briefly engaged to one of its adherants.

Did you not read post #43 in this thread?
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1438307&page=3

You did not respond.
The oracle talk is tongue and cheek with my wife and I.
Do you know the difference between New Thought and New Age?





.

Walt_NC
08-25-2012, 16:52
I'm an ordained minister in the Church of the SubGenius. Ours is the true path to happiness, enlightenment and life eternal. To learn more about how you can live a fuller and more meaningful life and secure an upper-middle class afterlife, please send $20. I accept Paypal and most major credit cards.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a3/Bobdobbs.png

brokenprism
08-25-2012, 17:26
Did you not read post #43 in this thread?
You did not respond.
The oracle talk is tongue and cheek with my wife and I.
Do you know the difference between New Thought and New Age?

I don't read all the threads here, NMG. I see you're from NM. I used to live in CO and drove through it many times. The northern part of the state is awesome. I spent a week at White Sands Missile Range validating a manual I wrote on the deep space surveillance system used by Air Force Space Command. It's a network of telescopes that monitors space object light signatures (and hence probable missions) against the star field, so the operatoins were at night. I remember wishing I had a flashlight so I could get my car without stepping on diamondbacks and sidewinders! : )

Anyway, I'm going to bail on this forum. I popped in to look around, but there's too much arguing here. Don't know why y'all do it. We can all agree that Glocks are great guns and I'll leave on that note.

Kingarthurhk
08-25-2012, 17:43
Did you not read post #43 in this thread?
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1438307&page=3

You did not respond.
The oracle talk is tongue and cheek with my wife and I.
Do you know the difference between New Thought and New Age?





.

New Thought is New Age repackaged and sent out to the churches. I am familiar with it.

Kingarthurhk
08-25-2012, 17:47
I don't read all the threads here, NMG. I see you're from NM. I used to live in CO and drove through it many times. The northern part of the state is awesome. I spent a week at White Sands Missile Range validating a manual I wrote on the deep space surveillance system used by Air Force Space Command. It's a network of telescopes that monitors space object light signatures (and hence probable missions) against the star field, so the operatoins were at night. I remember wishing I had a flashlight so I could get my car without stepping on diamondbacks and sidewinders! : )

Anyway, I'm going to bail on this forum. I popped in to look around, but there's too much arguing here. Don't know why y'all do it. We can all agree that Glocks are great guns and I'll leave on that note.

White Sands Missle range tends to spread between Las Cruces and Alamogordo. I am pretty familiar with the state, I have spent a lot of time there. High School, University, another 5 years working in Albuquerque.

I have been to Santa Fe, the only part of California completely surrounded by New Mexico. Roswell, doesn't have the corner on weird. You could also call it the Austin of New Mexico, though Austin is more conservative.

NMG26
08-25-2012, 18:15
New Thought is New Age repackaged and sent out to the churches. I am familiar with it.

You got that backwards. New age is New Thought repackaged.

One of the great early American thinkers Ralph Waldo Emerson is said to be a pioneer of New Thought.

Like I said. I dabble. I get something from it just as I get something from all religions that teach love.

I am not a new ager or even a new thoughter, but I do see some good in New Thought.

Religious Science is the science of religion. What works in religion and why? How can I incorporate every good thing from any religion into a true godly, spiritual, and good life.

You really can't pigeon hole me into this or that. I consider all, in order to see how it lines up with the real world.

I am influenced mostly by Christianity and specifically the writings of the Apostle Paul. Though I no longer am a Christian I still fond spirituality in the Bible that I have made my own.

"Faith, hope, and love, these three. The greatest of these is love."

Art, I don't call you what you are not, so don't go calling me what I am not. Thanks.

rgregoryb
08-25-2012, 18:19
Orthodox Pedestrian.........embrace the philosophical tenants of Christianity but not the mystical aspects.

and yes , Calvin was a genius after the likes of St Augustine.

Kingarthurhk
08-25-2012, 18:30
You got that backwards. New age is New Thought repackaged.

One of the great early American thinkers Ralph Waldo Emerson is said to be a pioneer of New Thought.

Like I said. I dabble. I get something from it just as I get something from all religions that teach love.

I am not a new ager or even a new thoughter, but I do see some good in New Thought.

Religious Science is the science of religion. What works in religion and why? How can I incorporate every good thing from any religion into a true godly, spiritual, and good life.

You really can't pigeon hole me into this or that. I consider all, in order to see how it lines up with the real world.

I am influenced mostly by Christianity and specifically the writings of the Apostle Paul. Though I no longer am a Christian I still fond spirituality in the Bible that I have made my own.

"Faith, hope, and love, these three. The greatest of these is love."

Art, I don't call you what you are not, so don't go calling me what I am not. Thanks.

Tell me something, honestly, the place where you attend, do they not go out to other churches?

Kingarthurhk
08-25-2012, 18:31
Orthodox Pedestrian.........embrace the philosophical tenants of Christianity but not the mystical aspects.

and yes , Calvin was a genius after the likes of St Augustine.

So, you agree with Calvin on the concept of predestination?

NMG26
08-25-2012, 21:12
Tell me something, honestly, the place where you attend, do they not go out to other churches?

I hardly ever go to "The Center For Spiritual Living" down the street. It did play a part in my exit from Christianity. My wife was suffering from depression and faith issues. I could not help her with Christianity. I tried. We saw a comercial for "The Center For Spiritual Living" where the minister was talking about love for all. We checked it out, and got some help with our desire for a faith community. In the end we took issue with some power plays in that group and don't go regular. I would, but she can't. She is sensitive.

We sometimes get a book on spirituality and read it together. A couple that we really enjoyed where "Spiritual Economics", by Eric Butterworth and "Living the Wisdom of the Tao", by Wayne Dyer.

To us life is still spiritual first. A favorite verse from the Bible is "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God, and all these Things will be added to you". For us life is spiritual.

Godliness is "God likeness". Christ is an Archetype to be live up to. Christ transcends all religion and humanity. It is the highest form of humanity. It is love. I believe in humanity and I believe that God believes in humanity. God has put faith in us. God trusts us. God does not step in, in our affairs except through humanity.

More then you asked for, but that is where I am.

Thanks for asking.

rgregoryb
08-25-2012, 21:52
So, you agree with Calvin on the concept of predestination?

I used to, but like I said I no longer embrace the "divine" aspects of Christianity. It is good for moral guidance without concerning myself with an "eternal" reward.

rgregoryb
08-25-2012, 21:55
We sometimes get a book on spirituality and read it together. A couple that we really enjoyed where "Spiritual Economics", by Eric Butterworth and "Living the Wisdom of the Tao", by Wayne Dyer.


Thanks for asking.

Tao saying "if you can explain the way, then it is not the way"

Bonhoeffer sort of adapted it to " if you can explain God, then he is not God"

NMG26
08-25-2012, 22:00
Tao saying "if you can explain the way, then it is not the way"

Bonhoeffer sort of adapted it to " if you can explain God, then he is not God"

That is why I post here.

I get educated every now and then.

Thanks for the quote.

Kingarthurhk
08-25-2012, 23:50
I used to, but like I said I no longer embrace the "divine" aspects of Christianity. It is good for moral guidance without concerning myself with an "eternal" reward.

Now, that is contradictory and just confusing.

Kingarthurhk
08-25-2012, 23:52
Tao saying "if you can explain the way, then it is not the way"

Bonhoeffer sort of adapted it to " if you can explain God, then he is not God"

Alternatively, to understand the Tao, is not to understand the Tao. I have actually read the entire Tao. Esentially, thanks for reading, but if you think you get it, you don't.

I found Taoism to be thoroughly disapointing. I knew a Taoist shaman. An interesting guy, we used to have a lot of discussions about religion.

muscogee
08-26-2012, 04:39
Now, that is contradictory and just confusing.

It's only contradictory if you begin with the belief that Christianity created morality. Morality was around long before any religion. Religions co-opt it.

muscogee
08-26-2012, 04:50
Tao saying "if you can explain the way, then it is not the way"

Bonhoeffer sort of adapted it to " if you can explain God, then he is not God"

After years on his cushion, a monk has what he believes is a breakthrough: a glimpse of nirvana, the Buddhamind, the big pay-off. Reporting the experience to his master, however, he is informed that what has happened is par for the course, nothing special, maybe even damaging to his pursuit. And then the master gives the student dismaying advice: If you meet the Buddha, he says, kill him.

Why kill the Buddha? Because the Buddha you meet is not the true Buddha, but an expression of your longing. If this Buddha is not killed he will only stand in your way. http://killingthebuddha.com/about/

Kingarthurhk
08-26-2012, 08:57
http://killingthebuddha.com/about/

Budhism and Taoism are two completely different animals. Budhism Thervada, Hinayana, and Zen have their origins in India and then are reformed and make their way to Japan. Taoism is of Chinese origin.

rgregoryb
08-26-2012, 12:55
So, you agree with Calvin on the concept of predestination?

how could anyone that has studied the scriptures not believe in predestination? unless you believe salvation is dependent on man.Or else you don't think God already knows your decision (if you really think it is yours to make)

jes sayin

Geko45
08-26-2012, 13:30
how could anyone that has studied the scriptures not believe in predestination?

Why not? I've studied the scriptures and don't believe any of it.

rgregoryb
08-26-2012, 13:37
Why not? I've studied the scriptures and don't believe any of it.



my bad, I misinterpreted your comment

packsaddle
08-26-2012, 16:21
Why not? I've studied the scriptures and don't believe any of it.

liar.

you're exercising your free will by denying it exists.

hey, instead of wasting your energy on hating the bible so much, why don't you consider a more productive use of your gifts by objectively exploring the philosophy of it's content?

rgregoryb
08-26-2012, 16:29
liar.

you're exercising your free will by denying it exists.

hey, instead of wasting your energy on hating the bible so much, why don't you consider a more productive use of your gifts by objectively exploring the philosophy of it's content?

like genocide in the OT?

Geko45
08-26-2012, 16:54
liar.

you're exercising your free will by denying it exists.

hey, instead of wasting your energy on hating the bible so much, why don't you consider a more productive use of your gifts by objectively exploring the philosophy of it's content?

In the business program at Belhaven University, I studied the bible in its entirety in both old testament and new testament survey courses. Both classes being taught by professors with their doctorates in divinity. In these classes, we read the bible cover to cover and studied it looking for common themes throughout. You forget, I was a theist for the first 38 years of my life. Until I actually read the bible and realized how hollow it was.

What is your experience in studying the bible? Church and Sunday school?

High-Gear
08-26-2012, 18:08
liar.

you're exercising your free will by denying it exists.

hey, instead of wasting your energy on hating the bible so much, why don't you consider a more productive use of your gifts by objectively exploring the philosophy of it's content?

So anyone who says they've read the bible and thinks it fiction is a liar, as they must be denying how awesome and inspiring it is?

Kingarthurhk
08-26-2012, 18:15
how could anyone that has studied the scriptures not believe in predestination? unless you believe salvation is dependent on man.Or else you don't think God already knows your decision (if you really think it is yours to make)

jes sayin

I don't believe in predestination. Otherwise, there would not be a point of Jesus comming to the earth and dying for all people. He said He did not come here to codemn the world, and also he would draw all men to Him. If there is no choice, then there is no love, and Satan and all disenters would have been instantly destroyed. There would be no point to Jesus comming to the earth and dying for everyone's sins.

rgregoryb
08-26-2012, 18:20
I don't believe in predestination. Otherwise, there would not be a point of Jesus comming to the earth and dying for all people. He said He did not come here to codemn the world, and also he would draw all men to Him. If there is no choice, then there is no love, and Satan and all disenters would have been instantly destroyed. There would be no point to Jesus comming to the earth and dying for everyone's sins.

if he came here to die for everyone, and yet not all believe in his message, he failed. I didn't realize SDA was part of the Universalist church.

Kingarthurhk
08-26-2012, 18:33
if he came here to die for everyone, and yet not all believe in his message, he failed. I didn't realize SDA was part of the Universalist church.

God has His people in all churches. I don't think only SDA's will be found in the kingdom of heaven. Also, you proving that it is a choice and not a predestination or everyone whould chose Jesus and salvation. The fact that many don't would illustrate that there is not a predestination.

Bren
08-26-2012, 18:37
So anyone who says they've read the bible and thinks it fiction is a liar, as they must be denying how awesome and inspiring it is?

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

rgregoryb
08-26-2012, 18:47
God has His people in all churches. I don't think only SDA's will be found in the kingdom of heaven. Also, you proving that it is a choice and not a predestination or everyone whould chose Jesus and salvation. The fact that many don't would illustrate that there is not a predestination.

huh???

Kingarthurhk
08-26-2012, 19:21
huh???

I'll try to make it more clear.

If Jesus came to save the world and not to comdemn the world, and to draw all men to him and it wasn't a 100 perecent success, then there is obviously no predestination. Otherwise everyone would repent and be saved. Clearly, that is not the case. Further, if everything were predestined, then there would have been no sin in the first place, because there would be no choice to fail in the first place.

rgregoryb
08-26-2012, 19:31
Wow, you should be a politician............that is a complete twisting of logic.

Vic Hays
08-26-2012, 21:23
if he came here to die for everyone, and yet not all believe in his message, he failed. I didn't realize SDA was part of the Universalist church.

By universalist does that mean we believe other people who are Christian and have diverse beliefs can be a part of God's Church?
We believe the Bible and it says so.

I Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
3:12 Now if any man build on this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
3:13 Every man’ work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’ work of what sort it is.
3:14 If any man’ work abide which he has built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
3:15 If any man’ work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Here is a quote from Ellen White on the matter:

SELECTED MESSAGES BOOK 3, PAGE 386

"God’s Children in Other Churches—God has children, many of them, in the Protestant churches, and a large number in the Catholic churches, who are more true to obey the light and to do [to] the very best of their knowledge than a large number among Sabbathkeeping Adventists who do not walk in the light. The Lord will have the message of truth proclaimed, that Protestants may be warned and awakened to the true state of things, and consider the worth of the privilege of religious freedom which they have long enjoyed."

This does not mean that the Truth is not important or that Christians are not accountable for the light they have and to always seek the Truth.

NMG26
08-26-2012, 21:35
By universalist does that mean we believe other people who are Christian and have diverse beliefs can be a part of God's Church?
We believe the Bible and it says so.



I guess you don't know that Biblical universalist theology was been around long before Calvin.

If I was still a Christian. I would be a Christian Universalist.

Tentmaker.org is about the best place to find how the Bible Makes Jesus the Savior of all mankind. It makes Jesus a winner instead of an All Mighty that has to cut his loses........just like humanity does.


.

Vic Hays
08-26-2012, 21:39
I'll try to make it more clear.

If Jesus came to save the world and not to comdemn the world, and to draw all men to him and it wasn't a 100 perecent success, then there is obviously no predestination. Otherwise everyone would repent and be saved. Clearly, that is not the case. Further, if everything were predestined, then there would have been no sin in the first place, because there would be no choice to fail in the first place.

King
There is predestination according to the Bible it just is not the meaning of predestination that is being taught by some as Truth.

Jesus died fro the whole world. Therefore, predestination to be conformed to Christ is a possibility for everyone that will accept it, but it is not compulsory.

Romans 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
8:30 Whom he foreordained, them he also called. Whom he called, them he also justified. Whom he justified, them he also glorified.

And the Bible says that many are called and few chosen.

packsaddle
08-27-2012, 00:45
In the business program at Belhaven University, I studied the bible in its entirety in both old testament and new testament survey courses. Both classes being taught by professors with their doctorates in divinity. In these classes, we read the bible cover to cover and studied it looking for common themes throughout. You forget, I was a theist for the first 38 years of my life. Until I actually read the bible and realized how hollow it was.

What is your experience in studying the bible? Church and Sunday school?

this isn't about me.

you're the one that said you studied the bible and "don't believe any of it".

do you also reject archaeological evidence corroborating biblical testimony?

if you "don't believe any of it" then you must necessarily reject all evidence supporting it too.

seems like a self-defeating position to me.

oh, and the whole "being a theist for 38 years" thingy doesn't impress anyone, since islamists are theists too.

there was a thief on the cross once that believed for about .2 seconds and was saved so appealing to long periods of theism is a non-sequitur when it comes to soteriology.

take care!

High-Gear
08-27-2012, 01:57
this isn't about me.

you're the one that said you studied the bible and "don't believe any of it".

do you also reject archaeological evidence corroborating biblical testimony?

if you "don't believe any of it" then you must necessarily reject all evidence supporting it too.

seems like a self-defeating position to me.

oh, and the whole "being a theist for 38 years" thingy doesn't impress anyone, since islamists are theists too.

there was a thief on the cross once that believed for about .2 seconds and was saved so appealing to long periods of theism is a non-sequitur when it comes to soteriology.

take care!

Please share a link to archelogical evidence which corroborates the bible!

Animal Mother
08-27-2012, 02:16
this isn't about me.

you're the one that said you studied the bible and "don't believe any of it".

do you also reject archaeological evidence corroborating biblical testimony? Archaeological evidence that corroborates the existence of certain individuals and events described in the Bible doesn't prove the supernatural claims made in the Bible to be true.
if you "don't believe any of it" then you must necessarily reject all evidence supporting it too. It's fairly obvious that Geko45 was referring to the exceptional claims of the Bible as scripture, not the tangential physical realities like the existence of Jerusalem during the 1st century.

Kingarthurhk
08-27-2012, 05:09
King
There is predestination according to the Bible it just is not the meaning of predestination that is being taught by some as Truth.

Jesus died fro the whole world. Therefore, predestination to be conformed to Christ is a possibility for everyone that will accept it, but it is not compulsory.

Romans 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
8:30 Whom he foreordained, them he also called. Whom he called, them he also justified. Whom he justified, them he also glorified.

And the Bible says that many are called and few chosen.

That is completely diffrent than whole cloth predestination. If that were the case, it wouldn't matter what I do one way or the other, as there is nothing I can do to be saved. If I came to Christ, it would becasue I was predestined to do so. If I rejected Christ it would be because I was predestined do that.

That completely negates free will. And if there were no free will then there would be no sin, unless that was predestined, then we would be accusing God of causing sin, which would be treading in a dangerous place.

muscogee
08-27-2012, 07:33
this isn't about me.

you're the one that said you studied the bible and "don't believe any of it".

do you also reject archaeological evidence corroborating biblical testimony?

if you "don't believe any of it" then you must necessarily reject all evidence supporting it too.

seems like a self-defeating position to me. Do you believe any archaeological evidence for the worship of Zeus? Does the existence of that evidence mean Zeus is the supreme god?

oh, and the whole "being a theist for 38 years" thingy doesn't impress anyone, since islamists are theists too. If you bothered to check, the college he attended was a Christian college. He studied the Old Testament and the New Testament. You think he might have been a Christian for 38 years? Stop wasting time playing pubescent word games.

there was a thief on the cross once that believed for about .2 seconds and was saved That depends on whether you believe Mark or Luke.

MAR 15:32, Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

LUK 23:39-40, And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, "If thou be Christ, save thyself and us." But the other answering rebuked him, saying, "Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?"

Things like this sort of jump out at you if you read the Bible with an open mind. OK, cut and stitch time. Have at it.

so appealing to long periods of theism is a non-sequitur when it comes to soteriology. So by your reckoning Gecko is saved. Good for him.

NMG26
08-27-2012, 09:02
That is completely diffrent than whole cloth predestination. If that were the case, it wouldn't matter what I do one way or the other, as there is nothing I can do to be saved. If I came to Christ, it would becasue I was predestined to do so. If I rejected Christ it would be because I was predestined do that.

That completely negates free will. And if there were no free will then there would be no sin, unless that was predestined, then we would be accusing God of causing sin, which would be treading in a dangerous place.

And that is the historical arguement.

Sectarian theology evolved after Luther's protest.

Calvinism, Arminianism, and Universalism were the three major player.

Calvinist=no free will.
Arminian=Free will.
Universalism=God's will eventually brings all to a place of acceptance of grace.

Universalism predates Calvinism and Arminianism in Christain history.

Most Christains do not know the history of their own sect.

I am intersted in SDA and where they fit into the history of these arguements. I will study it a bit on the internet but welcome a reply by you.

No time to check my spelling.....at work with no spell checker.

Vic Hays
08-27-2012, 11:27
Most Christains do not know the history of their own sect.

I am intersted in SDA and where they fit into the history of these arguements. I will study it a bit on the internet but welcome a reply by you.



You are attempting to put us in a classification that disregards God or His will.

If you want to see where we fit, check out the Bible. God will have a people in the last days that follow Jesus. Here are a couple of texts.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Our denomination is defined by 3 things.

1. Following God's will by keeping His commandments in Spirit and Truth

2. Having the faith of Jesus.

3. Having the testimony of Jesus Christ which is the spirit of prophecy.

This is the Remnant Church which has a God given task to complete similar to John the Baptist who preceeded Jesus first coming. We precede His second coming to warn the world to "make straight the way of the Lord." This is the Elijah message.

Geko45
08-27-2012, 12:19
this isn't about me. you're the one that said you studied the bible and "don't believe any of it".

And yet you are willing to make it about me by calling me out as a "liar"?

:upeyes:

At any rate, others have already replied to you with what I woud have said so I see no need to add any more to this.

NMG26
08-27-2012, 16:21
You are attempting to put us in a classification that disregards God or His will.


Keep them from asking questions. Seems to be what you are saying Vic.

Even the Bible priases those that are "diligent to see if these things are true"

I found the Wikipedia history to be fascinating.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Seventh-day_Adventist_Church



If you want to see where we fit, check out the Bible. God will have a people in the last days that follow Jesus. Here are a couple of texts.


The Bible does not tell the history of your theology. Your theology stands on the shoulders of your patriarchs. History shows the struggle. Like I said, it is quite fascinating.


Our denomination is defined by 3 things.

1. Following God's will by keeping His commandments in Spirit and Truth

2. Having the faith of Jesus.

3. Having the testimony of Jesus Christ which is the spirit of prophecy.

This is the Remnant Church which has a God given task to complete similar to John the Baptist who preceeded Jesus first coming. We precede His second coming to warn the world to "make straight the way of the Lord." This is the Elijah message.


1. Interpretation. God's only commandment is to love. Love is a fulfillment of the law.
"Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law."

2.The faith that Jesus had? "I and the Father are one?" Yes I like that one. If I can say as Jesus said "I and the Father are one" then I have the same faith that Jesus had.

3. Jesus Christ is a very good Archetype for godliness. He said "Be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect." I believe that we can live up to this. "love never fails." "Perfect love casts out fear". Righteousness and godliness are in the moment. This is faith. If you believe that it is attainable, then you find the grace to live in it.

The second coming was predicted to be In October 22, 1844. This is called the Great Disappointment. This Great Disappointment is part of the culture and beginning of the doctrine you now hold to. I am interested in what happened next. I only skimmed it and will look into it further. Interesting stuff.



.

rgregoryb
08-27-2012, 18:29
Bertrand Russell was asked if he died and found out there was a God what would he say to Him. Russell responded "not enough evidence"

muscogee
08-27-2012, 19:37
Bertrand Russell was asked if he died and found out there was a God what would he say to Him. Russell responded "not enough evidence"

http://www.playboy.com/playground/view/playboy-interview-richard-dawkins


PLAYBOY: Assume there is a god and you were given the chance to ask him one question. What would it be?
DAWKINS: I’d ask, “Sir, why did you go to such lengths to hide yourself?”

Vic Hays
08-27-2012, 20:04
The second coming was predicted to be In October 22, 1844. This is called the Great Disappointment. This Great Disappointment is part of the culture and beginning of the doctrine you now hold to. I am interested in what happened next. I only skimmed it and will look into it further. Interesting stuff.

.

This happened during the Millerite movement before there was a Seventh-day Adventist.

What happened next was that some wondered how they could be so mistaken when the Bible was very clear that something was to happen in 1844. Adventists then had been united on only the doctrine of the second coming of Jesus. They had come out of all of the other denominations that were present in the USA.

They got together and studied intensely and by God's grace were able to rediscovery a number of Bible doctrines that had been lost over the centuries and hidden by tradition in the other churches.

As for 1844, a revelation to Edson and more Bible study by the Adventists revealed that this date was the date for the beginning of the preadvent judgment at the end of the 2300 days in the Book of Daniel.

It was not until after the Adventists had embraced the Bible Sabbath that the denomination was formed.