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GT_glocker
08-24-2012, 20:31
I've recently read other posts in this forum indicating that reshoots can/should be awarded for virtually any reason, including shooter-induced problems. However, after reading all available GSSF materials, it appears that only ammo- or gun-related (or range equipment-related problems) are eligible for reshoots. Shooter mistakes are just part of the game.

What am I missing?

SARDG
08-24-2012, 22:20
I've recently read other posts in this forum indicating that reshoots can/should be awarded for virtually any reason, including shooter-induced problems. However, after reading all available GSSF materials, it appears that only ammo- or gun-related (or range equipment-related problems) are eligible for reshoots. Shooter mistakes are just part of the game.

What am I missing?
You are missing the daily RO Briefings at the matches since Orlando in February of this year AND you are missing the new Range Officer Guide at:
http://www.gssfonline.com/range-officer.cfm

However, the GSSF site is 'down' right now so you'll have to try it later. Make certain you read the very latest RO Guide.

Shooter-induced limp-wristing is just one of the many reasons that you can be awarded a reshoot. Be aware however, that few shooters and ROs are aware of these relaxed guidelines and fewer ROs it seems will proactively offer you a reshoot.

SARDG
08-24-2012, 22:28
While you are waiting for gssfonline, here's a copy and paste of the reshoot paragraph from the new RO Guide:

Reshoots. GSSF reshoot policies are much more lenient than those
of other shooting venues. Everyone is allowed one “free reshoot” per
stage. No matter the cause of a malfunction, whether bad ammo, “limp
wristing”, or whatever. If the competitor cannot or does not complete
three “clean” strings of fire on “Five to GLOCK” or “GLOCK ‘M”, the
ROs will paste all targets and reset all steel and allow the competitor one
additional chance to shoot three “clean” strings. On “GLOCK The
Plates”, competitors may re-shoot individual strings, not all strings. If
there is a SECOND malfunction the competitor and his gun, ammo and
other equipment should be removed to the Armorer for resolution. Once
the problem has been corrected, the competitor may return to the Stage
location and again attempt to shoot a “clean” Stage.

ETA: There are other references to reshoots in the Guide, so be sure to read it.

GT_glocker
08-25-2012, 06:19
I understand the concept of reshoots for gun or ammo-related failures. However, my question relates to recent posts stating that reshoots can/should be given for "anything", including "brain freezes" and "just because". That does not seem to be what the GSSF materials really state. In fact, the rules actually talk only about malfunctions, not a shooter's mental goof-ups.

lethal tupperwa
08-25-2012, 06:23
in that case you don't go to the armorer but need to bring a note from your shrink.

PM720
08-25-2012, 06:28
in that case you don't go to the armorer but need to bring a note from your shrink.

:rofl:

misunderestimated
08-25-2012, 06:43
What I have been finding is half the RO I run into do not shoot GSSF. Most other competitions there are no alibis or redo's so its just so foreign to them. And as you know most people Know everything so they dont re-read the updated guide.
I recently had an RO who I definitely could tell he had years of experience with a timer and a shooter under his control

There was a situation and I requested a re-shoot. The RO made me feel so bad about requesting a re-shoot I understand why people dont ask. He actually said how would you feel if I was waiting and some XXXhole had a malfunction and I had to wait another 20 minutes for them to re-shoot.

I then said to him.I am not an XXXhole it doesn't take 20 minutes, and if I was waiting I would just help re-paste and see if the shooter needed a hand re loading magazines and would definitely be more understanding of the situation .

I did a re-shoot. The RO did everything he could to make my re-shoot an uncomfortable experience.

I still had a great time at the stage. I had a great time at the event.

But most RO are not geared to giving re-shoots.

emtjr928
08-25-2012, 06:50
My shrink would not approve of my being around firearms! :crazy:

On a serious note. One has to read the rules in The Glock Report and the RO guides to get the full picture on the rules and procedures. Another example of the need to improve the presentation to New Shooters and Grizzled Veterans alike.

:outtahere:

johnhurd
08-25-2012, 07:42
Why don't they give everyone a prize and save all the expense of shooting. I quit the indoor shoots because that turned into a shoot till you like your score endeavor. I guess I will be retiring from the outdoor shoots now...... Where did I put that fishing rod............................ MI37185 out..................

SARDG
08-25-2012, 08:14
I understand the concept of reshoots for gun or ammo-related failures. However, my question relates to recent posts stating that reshoots can/should be given for "anything", including "brain freezes" and "just because". That does not seem to be what the GSSF materials really state. In fact, the rules actually talk only about malfunctions, not a shooter's mental goof-ups.
The poster whose comments you've read regarding reshoots for nearly 'anything', were likely mine - or at least I've led the charge. The word isn't technically "anything", it is "whatever" as documented in the RO Guide that ROs should be reading and following. Pretty-much the same thing - and the intent of GSSF rule-makers and officials. In addition to all that's written in words and spoken at briefs, I am frequently engaging GSSF Match Coordinators at these matches for rule decisions and clarifications.

Again, and as emtjr928 suggested, you are not looking at all GSSF materials when you simply say "Rules". Current information for competition at GSSF matches comes from many sources; the Rules, the RO Guides, current information from daily RO briefings, even clarifications from GSSF officials by e-mail throughout the year and throughout matches.

If you feel that you should NOT take a reshoot when one is truely warranted and perhaps offered, then by all means, do not accept the reshoot. However, be advised that this puts you at a competitive disadvantage to those who would follow current policy and accept a reshoot.

unclebob
08-25-2012, 08:29
Why don't they give everyone a prize and save all the expense of shooting. I quit the indoor shoots because that turned into a shoot till you like your score endeavor. I guess I will be retiring from the outdoor shoots now...... Where did I put that fishing rod............................ MI37185 out..................

Hope you catch a lot of fish.:fishing:

SARDG
08-25-2012, 08:39
What I have been finding is half the RO I run into do not shoot GSSF. Most other competitions there are no alibis or redo's so its just so foreign to them. And as you know most people Know everything so they dont re-read the updated guide.
I bet that if an RO doesn't stay current and read the GSSF documents, that they do not read any current documents from the discipline they do shoot. In example, ongoing IDPA rule updates may be found on the IDPA website. If an IDPA SO doesn't read the IDPA website for rule updates and clarifications that are released on an ongoing basis, they are only getting half the information. As an example, IDPA rules were last 'printed' in 2005, but many changes and rule decisions have come along since then. In any sport, one must stay current and relative.

...There was a situation and I requested a re-shoot. The RO made me feel so bad about requesting a re-shoot I understand why people dont ask. He actually said how would you feel if I was waiting and some XXXhole had a malfunction and I had to wait another 20 minutes for them to re-shoot...

...But most RO are not geared to giving re-shoots.
Wow, and people actually think that I'm some kind of Range Nazi and an arse... In fact, I am neither; I simply stay with 1) safety, and 2) the rules and current policy. And BTW, I agree it slows things down to a degree - but the policy is... you get a reshoot!

At any rate, I'm glad you educated that RO.

ron59
08-25-2012, 12:21
A reshoot for a "brain freeze" or 'just because" should not be allowed.

Gun/equipment malfunctions should be about it. Take some personal responsibility.. if u screw up, learn from it but don't expect reshoot.

unclebob
08-25-2012, 13:15
A reshoot for a "brain freeze" or 'just because" should not be allowed.

Gun/equipment malfunctions should be about it. Take some personal responsibility.. if u screw up, learn from it but don't expect reshoot.

You have a new shooter and screws everything up. Yes I will give him a reshoot. But I also let the person know if he does it again. Thatís it. Trying to get new shooters into shooting more GSSF not scare them away. It doesn't happen very often, but it does happen.

Glockrunner
08-25-2012, 14:18
A re-shoot does not have to happen, right now.
As a good RO you might pull that person off the line and have them take a break and then re-shoot the stage.
It (GSSF) is suppose to be fun and easy, not a burden to the shooters or the staff.

GT_glocker
08-25-2012, 14:53
The poster whose comments you've read regarding reshoots for nearly 'anything', were likely mine - or at least I've led the charge. The word isn't technically "anything", it is "whatever" as documented in the RO Guide that ROs should be reading and following. Pretty-much the same thing - and the intent of GSSF rule-makers and officials. In addition to all that's written in words and spoken at briefs, I am frequently engaging GSSF Match Coordinators at these matches for rule decisions and clarifications.

Again, and as emtjr928 suggested, you are not looking at all GSSF materials when you simply say "Rules". Current information for competition at GSSF matches comes from many sources; the Rules, the RO Guides, current information from daily RO briefings, even clarifications from GSSF officials by e-mail throughout the year and throughout matches.

If you feel that you should NOT take a reshoot when one is truely warranted and perhaps offered, then by all means, do not accept the reshoot. However, be advised that this puts you at a competitive disadvantage to those who would follow current policy and accept a reshoot.

Actually, "whatever" refers to the source of the malfunction, rather than a global excuse for a reshoot: My point is very specific: equipment and ammo-related malfunctions are legitimate causes for reshoots; a "brain freeze" is not.

I have, in fact, read all of the relevant materials. In them, reshoots are always discussed in the context of equipment/ammo/range malfunctions, and not in the context of mental lapses, "brain freezes", or "just because". Further, I listened to the RO briefing this morning in Columbia and they said the same thing about reshoots being for equipment or ammo problems. Following that, I explicitly asked one of the GSSF personnel at the match and he confirmed that reshoots are for equipment and ammo related problems only.

Not loading enough ammo, shooting once vs. twice at a paper target, forgetting to shoot a popper, or any other type of "brain freeze", is all part of the game and is the shooter's problem.

I'm a big believer in playing by the rules and making sure newcomers know the rules. That's why I raised this question in the first place. I don't think encouraging reshoots for virtually any reason is in keeping with the spirit of this competition.

SARDG
08-25-2012, 15:28
...I don't think encouraging reshoots for virtually any reason is in keeping with the spirit of this competition.
One competition I won't get into with you is a urination competition. Your original question was asked and answered correctly, and based on all the source information noted.

If in fact the GSSF personnel you spoke with today didn't mention anything further about reshoots, it is another example of inconsistencies in RO training. Limp-wristing isn't truly equipment or ammo, and yet... it is specifically mentioned as reshoot eligible - and that's but one example.

Glockrunner
08-25-2012, 15:30
Actually, "whatever" refers to the source of the malfunction, rather than a global excuse for a reshoot: My point is very specific: equipment and ammo-related malfunctions are legitimate causes for reshoots; a "brain freeze" is not.

I have, in fact, read all of the relevant materials. In them, reshoots are always discussed in the context of equipment/ammo/range malfunctions, and not in the context of mental lapses, "brain freezes", or "just because". Further, I listened to the RO briefing this morning in Columbia and they said the same thing about reshoots being for equipment or ammo problems. Following that, I explicitly asked one of the GSSF personnel at the match and he confirmed that reshoots are for equipment and ammo related problems only.

Not loading enough ammo, shooting once vs. twice at a paper target, forgetting to shoot a popper, or any other type of "brain freeze", is all part of the game and is the shooter's problem.

I'm a big believer in playing by the rules and making sure newcomers know the rules. That's why I raised this question in the first place. I don't think encouraging reshoots for virtually any reason is in keeping with the spirit of this competition.

I was going to argue your point too and was researching all occurences of the word,"reshoot" until I hit upon the same thing Ms Kitty did.

From the 2012 GSSf RO Guide:

Reshoots:
"GSSF reshoot policies are much more lenient than those of other shooting venues. Everyone is allowed one “free reshoot” per stage. No matter the cause of a malfunction, whether bad ammo, “limp wristing”, or whatever."

It appears to me that while some examples are given of what could cause a malfunction, OR WHATEVER pretty much sums up the fact that at least one good attempt (reshoot) has to be put forth by the RO staff for the shooter.

Glockrunner
08-25-2012, 15:48
I compare reshoots to IDPA Classifiers. We bend over backwards to get shooters into the next higher classification, WHY do we work so hard in trying to get the best out of a competitor?

We most likely all know the answer to the IDPA situation. So, in light of what GSSF is trying to do, Why do we want the competitor to shoot their best score?" We are there mainly to promote the manufacture and the product. BUT more importantly we represent the sport of shooting and our desire for all of us, in all classes to do our best within the rules and guidelines.

We are trying to make the Glock brand and the shooting sports fun for the masses. Remember, we could be and very well may a a world class shooter on second but a brand new, first time Glock owner up next.

We all have Gamers yea, I know but we are there too for the beginner. The rules and guidlines have to cover both situations......

Same for giving the next higher hit score for a close strike on the paper. We want the competitor, no matter their class to be treated as equally as possible.

Beating a competitor with a rule book just drives the sport down somewhat. Rehoots aren't a big event in my world.

SARDG
08-25-2012, 15:49
You have a new shooter and screws everything up. Yes I will give him a reshoot. But I also let the person know if he does it again. Thatís it...
...and in fact Bob, those are the rules as well - one reshoot, then banished to the armorer OR take your licks. I don't see any plan in place in the rules or guides for a second reshoot. I have however, watched a GSSF official give a single person 2 or 3 reshoots based on his assumption that the problem continued to be firearm related. (Ahh, the very early days of Gen 4s.)

Don At PC
08-25-2012, 17:27
Dam here comes another Migrain. Plus I wasn't much of a Dale JR. or Quaker State fan before but I am even less of a fan now with all the B.S. here coming up from the bottom of the page everytime a new page is opened.

Don

Glockrunner
08-25-2012, 17:40
Dam here comes another Migrain. Plus I wasn't much of a Dale JR. or Quaker State fan before but I am even less of a fan now with all the B.S. here coming up from the bottom of the page everytime a new page is opened.

Don

:dunno: Maybe another dance around the table with Gentleman Jack will help?:faint:

DannyR
08-25-2012, 17:44
Yes, Don, it is indeed another raging, fun killing debate after the question was answered. Almost sounds like two adversaries having a Bible quoting contest.

DannyR
08-25-2012, 18:00
Personally, I would not look for a reshoot unless my pistol jammed for whatever reason. I had two different opportunities for a reshoot recently at Beckley, but I turned them down. I shoot to see how well I can do in existing conditions, not perfect conditions, as there are no reshoots in real life. On the 5TG, I watched my front sight do a "360" while shooting the final string. When I showed clear, the front sight fell on to the barrel. I was offered a reshoot but declined, because I had completed the string. I switched to my carry Glock for the M. Still shook up and annoyed, I did not fully seat the magazine for my second string. When the pistol just went click on the second shot on the second string, I just did a tap, rack and bang to continue. No big deal, I would have done the same in a gunfight.

My GSSF scores have never been a threat to 1st place, and never will. I shoot for fun and do try to shoot better, but I take life as it comes.

Now there has been too much nitpicking over rules and perceived rules. Not fun.