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BuckyP
08-25-2012, 20:18
Ok, so from other threads I've learned that 32 ACP is just fine for bear defense...

but on a more serious note, given the choice of the two, if hiking in bear country, would you prefer an M1A or some kind of "tactical" shotgun (minimum 8+1) with slugs or similar? What would your ammo choice be, respective to your selection?

Or, do you think neither of these wouldn't be adequate with some of the larger varieties of bear?

method
08-25-2012, 20:21
Probably just a regular 4-shot 870, loaded with Brenneke Black Magic or Dixie slugs.

bac1023
08-25-2012, 20:22
Shotgun

FireForged
08-25-2012, 20:23
slug shotgun... ask anyone in alaska

vafish
08-25-2012, 20:43
M1A is over 9 lbs, a Mossberg 500 is about 7.

On a hike I'll take the Mossberg.

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n0leafcl0ver
08-25-2012, 20:45
shotgun with slugs and a very large revolver on the hip, 500s&w, .454 cassul

countrygun
08-25-2012, 20:54
I have several "possibles" , any of my "social" pump shotguns, or a SOCOM16, or "tanker" Garand. To kind of echo vafish, weight would be important hiking, and since our black bears are not that big, I'll cheat and go off list and say my Winchester "Trapper" carbine in .44mag.

I just can't stay in the box :dunno::supergrin:

airflyer
08-25-2012, 21:02
My m4 is what I would take with slugs ,

dajcarroll
08-25-2012, 22:31
Probably just a regular 4-shot 870, loaded with Brenneke Black Magic or Dixie slugs.

Those Black Magic slugs look nasty. I wouldn't ever want to be on the wrong end of one of those suckers. I bought a box of 5 "just because".


G19 - Gen 3
G37 - Gen 3
S&W 10-5 .38spl Snub Nose
Winchester 1300 Ranger 12 Ga.
NEF Pardner SBI 12 Ga.
Savage 24 O/U - .22LR/410

"I don't need a $1000 shotgun. I need to know how to run the gun I've got!" - Clint Smith

WoodenPlank
08-25-2012, 22:33
Definitely shotgun. I wouldn't turn down a lever action in .44 or heavier, either.

UtahIrishman
08-25-2012, 23:01
It depends in part what kind of bear you expect to run into.

Black bear...I'll take my Browning Lever in .308 with 180 grain bullets. Plus my BLR is lighter than my shotgun by at least half a pound

Brown bear, either a shotgun with slugs or my 8 MM Mauser loaded heavy.

Grizzlies...I haven't been around Grizzlies a lot and don't know too much about their habits. But based on what I've read here and elsewhere the best thing would be to just stay away from them...and a shotgun with slugs

Berto
08-25-2012, 23:12
Rem 870/Brennekes.

steve1911
08-25-2012, 23:33
Shotgun slugs, or 45/70 lever action.



1911club#410

Al Czervik
08-25-2012, 23:33
Rem 870/Brennekes.

That'd be my choice.

glock2740
08-25-2012, 23:38
My .45-70 Guide Gun loaded with Garrett's with my 5" S&W .460 on my hip. :cool:

alwaysshootin
08-25-2012, 23:57
Probably just a regular 4-shot 870, loaded with Brenneke Black Magic or Dixie slugs.

I would think that combination would work for most all scenarios! Four legged or two!

BuckyP
08-26-2012, 04:34
Thanks for the replies so far.

Seems like the shotgun is the preference. I guess a slug will hit harder / penetrate better than a .308? Didn't think of the weight thing. Sounds like (out of my collection) my Mossy 500 might be the ticket, over one of the heavier Semi shotguns too. On the other hand, my Extrema is a 3 1/2" gun which would offer even more punch. :dunno:

I have a decent sampling of slugs and sabots. Will have to look into the Black Magic load.

ithaca_deerslayer
08-26-2012, 04:52
Thanks for the replies so far.

Seems like the shotgun is the preference. I guess a slug will hit harder / penetrate better than a .308? Didn't think of the weight thing. Sounds like (out of my collection) my Mossy 500 might be the ticket, over one of the heavier Semi shotguns too. On the other hand, my Extrema is a 3 1/2" gun which would offer even more punch. :dunno:

I have a decent sampling of slugs and sabots. Will have to look into the Black Magic load.

Bullet selection matters, but I don't think a 12ga slug will penetrate better than a .308. But it will drill a bigger hole.

clancy
08-26-2012, 05:03
My .45-70 Guide Gun loaded with Garrett's with my 5" S&W .460 on my hip. :cool:

Man, that S&W is a lot of extra weight to carry. I carried an 870 loaded with slugs when I went backpacking In Alaska back in the 80's. !2 gauge slugs will do all you need to do.

svtpwnz
08-26-2012, 06:17
Bullet selection matters, but I don't think a 12ga slug will penetrate better than a .308. But it will drill a bigger hole.

Bingo! And those Black Magic slugs are just plain nasty. Obviously I say shotgun with slugs and of course a 10mm sidearm of the G20/G29 flavor.

Novocaine
08-26-2012, 12:08
"tactical" shotgun (minimum 8+1)

Lucky if there will be time for the second shot.

3rdgen40
08-26-2012, 12:19
Bear spray is more effective than a firearm at stopping a charging grizzly.
Bear spray and bear attack comparison - YouTube

Bring_it!
08-26-2012, 12:27
I read somewhere bird shot for 1st round, to mess up their sight and smell.
What say those from AK?

AKRover
08-26-2012, 12:28
G20 with hot rounds if bear encounters are possible.

1300 Defender loaded with 3" slugs backed up by the G20 if bear encounters are likely.

Had someone mention that if you bounce a flare on the ground in front of the bear the smell of the burning flare would disorient the bear and allow you to escape. I carried 12 gauge flares for a while in the shell holder on my shotgun but decided against carrying them anymore due to fire danger.

Cole125
08-26-2012, 12:30
I have heard good things about bear spray, but no question you want a viable firearm in addition. Its hard to beat the sheer wrecking power of a 12g slug close range, I think thats the ticket in bear country.

Would not hurt to have a G29 loaded as hot as possible on your side, too. Don't tell me a mag of that is not going to get a bears attention.

smokeross
08-26-2012, 14:47
I read somewhere bird shot for 1st round, to mess up their sight and smell.
What say those from AK?
Most bear attack victims are lucky to get off any shots. Better make the first one count. I pack a large caliber handgun on my hip. If I am packing a long gun, it is usually something like a short barreled .444 or .45-70 with heavy bullets.

AK_Stick
08-26-2012, 14:53
Ok, so from other threads I've learned that 32 ACP is just fine for bear defense...

but on a more serious note, given the choice of the two, if hiking in bear country, would you prefer an M1A or some kind of "tactical" shotgun (minimum 8+1) with slugs or similar? What would your ammo choice be, respective to your selection?

Or, do you think neither of these wouldn't be adequate with some of the larger varieties of bear?


The 308 is what I started hunting with in AK.

Having shot bear with it, it would not be my choice for a angry animal.

Personally, if thats all you've got, I'd take a pump 12 with good non saboted slugs, over the M1A.

But I'd choose a good mid-large bore bolt gun, lever gun, or one of my double rifles over a shotgun every day of the week.

Motor City Glocker
08-26-2012, 15:02
On a hike I would bring my Mossberg loaded with slugs. (Shot capacity is 7+1.) On my hip would be one of my Colts loaded with 230 grain ball ammo.

AK_Stick
08-26-2012, 15:06
IMO, unless you're going to do something that requires you to set the long gun down and move away from it, a handgun is likely to be useless extra weight.


Chances of getting more than a shot or two off, with a slung gun, is fairly slim.

Chances of using your pistol is pretty much zilch. Unless you're planning on shooting yourself.

Motor City Glocker
08-26-2012, 15:12
IMO, unless you're going to do something that requires you to set the long gun down and move away from it, a handgun is likely to be useless extra weight.


Chances of getting more than a shot or two off, with a slung gun, is fairly slim.

Chances of using your pistol is pretty much zilch. Unless you're planning on shooting yourself.


I understand what you're saying, but wouldn't you agree that a sidearm is better than nothing at all ?

Granted, I've never been to Alaska (I've always wanted to go though), but grizzlies can't be that fast can they ?

pipedreams
08-26-2012, 15:18
, but grizzlies can't be that fast can they ?
:rofl:
:stooges:

ithaca_deerslayer
08-26-2012, 15:21
Bear spray is more effective than a firearm at stopping a charging grizzly.
Bear spray and bear attack comparison - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TA_DXeWTOG8&feature=player_detailpage)
I wonder if that is true.

countrygun
08-26-2012, 16:03
but grizzlies can't be that fast can they ?


:rofl:

I have never tangled with one, but I've seen black bears in action. Griz are a lot bigger, and they tell me faster. That would be some serious "fast".

I guess it's the sheepdog in me, but I figure if one of our blackies is going to attack me he will probably attack others who may not have any chance so rather than spray I'll settle his accounts.

Motor City Glocker
08-26-2012, 16:19
I have never tangled with one, but I've seen black bears in action. Griz are a lot bigger, and they tell me faster. That would be some serious "fast".

I guess it's the sheepdog in me, but I figure if one of our blackies is going to attack me he will probably attack others who may not have any chance so rather than spray I'll settle his accounts.


I agree 100%.

glock2740
08-26-2012, 16:22
Granted, I've never been to Alaska (I've always wanted to go though), but grizzlies can't be that fast can they ?
No, they're very slow. They usually just walk after their prey, as running would burn too many calories. Besides, when a grizzly bear stands up and growls at you, you usually just stand there and freeze and piss your pants, so running really never comes into play. :tongueout: :rofl:

Motor City Glocker
08-26-2012, 16:30
No, they're very slow. They usually just walk after their prey, as running would burn too many calories. Besides, when a grizzly bear stands up and growls at you, you usually just stand there and freeze and piss your pants, so running really never comes into play. :tongueout: :rofl:

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

BuckyP
08-26-2012, 17:22
Thanks for the suggestions. Not looking to add anything to the collection at the moment, hoping to make do. I agree a sidearm is a good idea as well. While I don't have a GLOCK 29, I'm hoping my S&W 29 will suffice.

.308 is the biggest rifle I have, but have 12 gauge in 2 3/4, 3" and 3 1/2.

AK_Stick
08-26-2012, 18:09
I understand what you're saying, but wouldn't you agree that a sidearm is better than nothing at all ?

Granted, I've never been to Alaska (I've always wanted to go though), but grizzlies can't be that fast can they ?


A side arm is fine, if you're not going to have a long gun slung over your shoulder.


When I take my girl out for a hike, I carry a pistol.


When I go someplace, like a fishing trip, I'll take my shotgun, and sling it, or lean it against a tree within reach.



And no, its not so much that grizzlies are that fast. If you see one out in the open, they're not terrifically fast.

What it is, is that they typically don't charge you from the open, they charge you from dense foliage fairly close. And without much of a warning chuff, or growl.

AK_Stick
08-26-2012, 18:11
Thanks for the suggestions. Not looking to add anything to the collection at the moment, hoping to make do. I agree a sidearm is a good idea as well. While I don't have a GLOCK 29, I'm hoping my S&W 29 will suffice.

.308 is the biggest rifle I have, but have 12 gauge in 2 3/4, 3" and 3 1/2.



Between the 29 and the 12gauge, you're set.

Planning on spending some time in bear country?

JackMac
08-26-2012, 18:39
12 ga. with slugs will do the job. Now, old USAF manual (circa late 50s and early 1960s instructs for survival in polar regions use the over under .22 over .410. A 22./.410 was in some survival gear in some aircraft. Suggested use the 410 shot shell to shoot polar bear in the face to blind it and affect sense of smell. Bad idea then as now. But it was intended to be a last ditch endeavor to save you life if your aircraft went down.

WarEagle32
08-26-2012, 18:59
I saw once on tv where an Alaska State trooper put down a Grizzly with a 12 gauge slug. That would be my pick for the situation that you are talking about and I do think that 29 will do the job too with the right load!

Warp
08-26-2012, 19:00
Out west or in Alaska I would want:

1. Ruger Super Redhawk Alaskan in at least .44 mag (loaded with Buffalo Bore hard cast lead in their +P+)...or possibly the Alaskan in .454 Casull.

2. 12 gauge with Brenneke Black Magic Magnum 1 3/8 ounce 3" slugs...or maybe a handy lever gun in .45-70 with an appropriate Buffalo Bore load.


Out here, east of the Mississippi, I have my Ruger GP100, 4" .357 magnum, loaded with Buffalo Bore 180gr hardcast lead.

My brother took a geology job out west. He got the Alaskan in .44 mag. If he was a shooter or gun guy (he is not) I would have told him to get the .454.

glock2740
08-26-2012, 19:37
And no, its not so much that grizzlies are that fast. If you see one out in the open, they're not terrifically fast.

No, they're not fast at all. They can only run as fast as a horse. :upeyes:

UtahIrishman
08-26-2012, 19:48
I don't know about Grizzlies but Brown Bears are quite fast. I would say at least as fast as a horse. Plus you don't hear them coming. Their feet are nicely padded.

Black Bears move pretty quick too. I don't think they're as fast as Browns but I wasn't timing them.

AK_Stick
08-26-2012, 19:57
I don't know about Grizzlies but Brown Bears are quite fast. I would say at least as fast as a horse. Plus you don't hear them coming. Their feet are nicely padded.

Black Bears move pretty quick too. I don't think they're as fast as Browns but I wasn't timing them.


The only difference between a brown bear and a grizzly, is the location.


Brown bears, are coastal, and get bigger, because of more abundant food supply. Grizzly's are interior bears, and typically run smaller.



But bears, are not as fast as horses/moose/caribou etc. They're quick for short bursts of speed, but typically attack from ambush when going after bigger animals.


They're still faster than a human, but fast is a relative term.

RJ's Guns
08-26-2012, 20:00
I lived in Alaska for about 12 years, I have a lot of family up there, and I visit Alaska frequently. I lived right next to the National Forest and I loved riding my horse in the woods. I have quite literally, thousands of hours in the woods of Alaska. I have been chased, on horseback, five times by grizzly bear. Both my horse and myself were very woods savvy, so my horse would sense that a bear was in the area and we were ready. The bear that got the closest, charged out of dense cover from about 35-40 yards away.

In answer to the question can grizzly bear run fast? I can tell you this; for about the first 75-100 yards, they are about 5 mph faster than a big, strong, fast, scared horse (that was in condition to do 100-mile endurance races) and then the bear seemed to “punk out” or lose interest. Sometimes they would slow down sooner if the bear started the charge from further away and the bear figured out that it really did not have a good chance of catching us.

I have known several people who have used pepper spray on bear. None of those individuals had a good word to say about using pepper spray and none of them recommended bear spray.

What firearm to carry; I have run the gamut. I started out with a 340 Weatherby, then went to a 375 H&H, followed by a 458 Win Mag. With each of those bolt-action rifles, I knew, first hand, that I would only be able to get off one shot. I also know how hard it is to hit the area that you need to hit, to stop a charging bear. It is easier said than done. With that in mind, I felt that I needed something other than a bolt-action rifle.

For a long time now, my choice of firearms, when I am in an area where there are large dangerous game (moose can also kill you quickly and they are also hard to stop) I carry an auto-loader 12 gauge Benelli or a 338 Win Mag Browning BAR. I want the potential for quick follow-up shots. The Benelli gives me the quickest follow-up shots (I can fairly consistently clear a bowling pin table, from Weaver ready, in about 2 seconds, or a little less) but it has a limited application so the next best option is the Bar.

I use 00 buckshot for the first two rounds, because I know that, most likely, those shots will be rushed and I want a larger zone of impact than a slug will provide. The rest are all slugs.

The people that talk about using something like a Glock, in bear country, make me smile. A 454 Casull or a 500 S&W are better than nothing, but any handgun makes me feel under-gunned.
RJ

Deaf Smith
08-26-2012, 20:01
Probably just a regular 4-shot 870, loaded with Brenneke Black Magic or Dixie slugs.

And that would be that. Most real bear attacks are sudden. They cover 30 yards in seconds and you will have maybe time for two aimed shots.

So yes, a good 12 pump with good slugs. While I like my .45 and .44 sixguns I know the real answer is a good simple shotgun.

Oh, and IF I do pack a sixgun it would be one of these (except the SP101.)

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=227364&d=1346032962

You are looking at my Ruger Super Redhawk in .454, a .44 S&W Mountain gun, and regular 629-1 .44 magnum (both 4 inchers) and my 'little' SP101 .357.)

Deaf

BuckyP
08-26-2012, 20:01
Between the 29 and the 12gauge, you're set.

Planning on spending some time in bear country?


For next years vacation, it's looking that way. I like to plan ahead.

dp2002813
08-26-2012, 20:04
Thanks for the suggestions. Not looking to add anything to the collection at the moment, hoping to make do. I agree a sidearm is a good idea as well. While I don't have a GLOCK 29, I'm hoping my S&W 29 will suffice.

.308 is the biggest rifle I have, but have 12 gauge in 2 3/4, 3" and 3 1/2.


In PA, the S&W 29 with 270g or 300g flat-head hard cast lead bullet made by Garrett or Buffalo Bore will be good. If your going to brown, coastal or grizzly territory, get a 45-70 or at least a .338. The S&W 29 will also be a good minimum for big bear.

My vote is for the caliber I choose, the S&W 44mag. It is easier to carry, lighter, and concealable, if necessary.

Honestly, the many black bear I have encountered while hiking solo have been big and beautiful and just as interested in avoiding contact with me as I was with them... that included momma and her two cubs. (that was almost a brown britches moment, because I was in NJ hiking the Appalachia trail and guns were just not permissible.) DANG YANKEES!! :supergrin:

AK_Stick
08-26-2012, 20:09
For next years vacation, it's looking that way. I like to plan ahead.


You planning on coming to AK?

Wyoming
08-26-2012, 21:14
Of the the two you mention, definitely the shotgun.

Bears aren't dangerous until close. A 12 ga slug is about 3/4" bullet at about 1500 fps.

A short barrel slug gun is a great camp gun to have. I sent mine out and had their barrels threaded for screw in chokes.

You can shoot anythings from bunnies to bears and a 3" mag of number 4 buck has 41 .24 buck shot for two legged varmints. You stand a better chance of being attacked by them then bears.

IvanVic
08-26-2012, 22:00
Most experts will tell you that bear spray is indeed more effective. Personally, I would never go into bear country alone. Having a 2nd person, both of you armed, is the absolute best defense.

WoodenPlank
08-26-2012, 22:20
Of the the two you mention, definitely the shotgun.

Bears aren't dangerous until close. A 12 ga slug is about 3/4" bullet at about 1500 fps.

A short barrel slug gun is a great camp gun to have. I sent mine out and had their barrels threaded for screw in chokes.

You can shoot anythings from bunnies to bears and a 3" mag of number 4 buck has 41 .24 buck shot for two legged varmints. You stand a better chance of being attacked by them then bears.


Using 3" for two-legged problems?

:wow:

countrygun
08-26-2012, 22:27
Using 3" for two-legged problems?

:wow:


Some folks are into that "pain thing"

WoodenPlank
08-26-2012, 22:38
Some folks are into that "pain thing"

Fair point. I have a friend back home tha giggles like a schoolgirl when we give him 3" 12ga loads to shoot.

Fonzie
08-26-2012, 23:09
In the Alaskan bush, I carried an 870 loaded with slugs - as seen in pic. Wrap rubber band around barrel with a piece of plastic over muzzle to keep the rain out.
Wife & kids felt safer when I carried it. She had the bear spray, I had the 870.

BuckyP
08-27-2012, 05:13
You planning on coming to AK?

Certainly leaning that way. Still haven't taken this years vacation yet (Texas in November).

Maybe when the time comes, I can ping you where to go / stay?

BuckyP
08-27-2012, 05:18
IMO, unless you're going to do something that requires you to set the long gun down and move away from it, a handgun is likely to be useless extra weight.

Chances of using your pistol is pretty much zilch. Unless you're planning on shooting yourself.

I like those odds, zilch. Same odds I have everyday (hopefully), but I still carry as much as possible (whenever allowed by law).

sourdough44
08-27-2012, 08:23
Look at the photographer recently killed by the bear in AK. Yes, he did a bunch of things wrong, but he did observe the bear for over 10 min before the attack, pictures from his camera. If he would of even had some spray he could of gave it a face full once it came within range. Most of the time hiking with your heavy rifle or shotgun isn't that practical, for the low probability bear encounter.

A large cannister of UDAP bearspray squirts a long way with a concentrated, nasty stream
of very potent fluid. I'll take that & a big bore handgun.

Indy_Guy_77
08-27-2012, 13:03
A friend of mine is stationed on Kodiak Island, AK.

He totes a S&W 686. I asked him why not something with a little more horsepower.

He told me that there are many more folks carrying .357Mag than .44Mag.

He also has 12ga, but I do not know if he carries that along when hiking or not.

-J-

BuckyP
08-27-2012, 13:14
A friend of mine is stationed on Kodiak Island, AK.

He totes a S&W 686. I asked him why not something with a little more horsepower.

He told me that there are many more folks carrying .357Mag than .44Mag.


Did he say why? Was it availability, cost? Or, does the smaller bullet at the same velocity have more penetration?

Fonzie
08-27-2012, 13:45
A .357 will just make a brownie mad. Even a .44 Mag is considered the smallest to carry in brownie country - so I hear.

itsaz
08-27-2012, 13:48
I've been told a .22 is all you need.











Shoot your hiking partner in the knee and walk calmly in the other direction.

AZ Cat
08-27-2012, 14:05
All you need are some bells and pepper spray:

227397

:rofl:

Seriously, I'd feel quite confident with the shotgun.

Deaf Smith
08-27-2012, 16:53
Well this guy, it turns out, had no gun or pepper spray.

http://www.adn.com/2012/08/26/2600680/denali-hikers-camera-offers-clues.html

They also said, "For unknown reasons, this bear turned predator."

Yea, sure. Bear was either fattening up for winter or PO'ED the guy was so close. I remember Jacques Cousteau saying sharks don't attack people... they just 'mistake' us for food. Yea, right tell that to the crew of the Indianapolis or Juno.

As for pepper spray....

I'd check out their forums.

http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/forum.php

http://www.ak-outdoors.com/forums

And ask them what they think of pepper spray. See the 'officials' don't want tourist to not come so don't expect them to be 100 percent honest.

Deaf

ithaca_deerslayer
08-27-2012, 17:00
The people that talk about using something like a Glock, in bear country, make me smile. A 454 Casull or a 500 S&W are better than nothing, but any handgun makes me feel under-gunned.
RJ
What's wrong with a Glock 10mm?

Warp
08-27-2012, 17:12
What's wrong with a Glock 10mm?

In Grizzly/Moose territory a Glock is not enough gun

3rdgen40
08-27-2012, 17:20
And no, its not so much that grizzlies are that fast. If you see one out in the open, they're not terrifically fast.

What it is, is that they typically don't charge you from the open, they charge you from dense foliage fairly close. And without much of a warning chuff, or growl.
The Speed of a Bear - YouTube

cloudbuster
08-27-2012, 18:01
The Speed of a Bear - YouTube

Those goobers clearly aren't watching their own sheep get run down and killed.

RJ's Guns
08-27-2012, 18:21
What's wrong with a Glock 10mm?


For Grizzly and its larger cousin, Brown Bear, a 10 mm, you have to be kidding. To answer your question, I would suggest that you go to Alaska and tell anyone that has been in Alaska for a while, that you think that a 10mm is adequate as a defense round for big bear and/or moose and see what reaction you get. I guarantee that people will be talking, for years, about the crazy Cheechako that thought that a 10 mm was sufficient for bear defense. I know that there are some Alaskans that think there are too many people in this world, that want Darwinism to kick in, that would encourage you to go into the woods, with a 10 mm defense pistol, but I am not of that ilk.

I was friends with the guy that shot a record size Brown Bear that was on display, for years, at the Anchorage Airport (it still may be there, I have not bothered to check). He was hunting for deer, with a 300 Win Mag loaded with 150-grain deer loads. He did not know it, but the bear was stalking him and suddenly charged him from dense cover. Phil shot it and was lucky/good enough to hit it in a vital spot and it dropped a few feet from where Phil was standing, unable to move, but still alive. He said that he would never forget the bear’s eyes following him as Phil maneuvered around for a kill shot. Phil told me that was the last time that he ever went around in bear country without being “loaded for bear.” If a 300 Win Mag almost was not enough, do you honestly think that a 10 mm is up to the task?

RJ

AK_Stick
08-27-2012, 20:55
The Speed of a Bear - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgPUhWQxkZk)

You do realize, you're talking to a guy who grew up, and now lives in the country in Alaska, has been afield for nearly 30 years, and has killed, and been in on the killing of close to two dozen bears, and lived around them his whole life right?

You telling me anything about brown bears/grizzly's is kinda like telling a F1 driver about driving.

As I said, "fast" is a relative term. Moose, and caribou, and horses are all faster than BB's. They can be very quick, over a short distance, and like to attack from ambush, which is what makes shooting one during a charge tricky. I've been charged, both bluff, and a real charge, in which the bear was attempting to carry the charge all the way home, and my partner and I ended it with high powered rifles.


In Grizzly/Moose territory a Glock is not enough gun

See below

A .357 will just make a brownie mad. Even a .44 Mag is considered the smallest to carry in brownie country - so I hear.

The 357, is a very popular caliber up here, because it has less recoil, and drives a heavy, dense bullet at a good clip. The 10mm for the same reason. Both are capable of penetrating the shoulder of a large brownie, and reaching the vitals.

While 44's are more common, and 454's 475's 480's being less common but certainly around, the 357 and 10mm, are by no means "not enough gun" or uncommon.

Certainly leaning that way. Still haven't taken this years vacation yet (Texas in November).

Maybe when the time comes, I can ping you where to go / stay?

Certainly. Anything you want/need to know I'd be happy to help with. If the timing works out, I'll even have you and the family to my place for moose steaks.

AK_Stick
08-27-2012, 20:57
Well this guy, it turns out, had no gun or pepper spray.

http://www.adn.com/2012/08/26/2600680/denali-hikers-camera-offers-clues.html

They also said, "For unknown reasons, this bear turned predator."

Yea, sure. Bear was either fattening up for winter or PO'ED the guy was so close. I remember Jacques Cousteau saying sharks don't attack people... they just 'mistake' us for food. Yea, right tell that to the crew of the Indianapolis or Juno.

As for pepper spray....

I'd check out their forums.

http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/forum.php

http://www.ak-outdoors.com/forums

And ask them what they think of pepper spray. See the 'officials' don't want tourist to not come so don't expect them to be 100 percent honest.

Deaf

I'm a member of the .outdoorsdirectory very good forum, lots of helpful guys.


But as for that bear, I don't think it was anything about PO'd or fattening up for winter. What it has to do with, is that bears are lazy. That idiot, pretty much offered himself to the bear. And they're not above taking any easy meal.

ithaca_deerslayer
08-27-2012, 21:02
See now I'm confused.

One Alaska guy says 10mm is adequate and popular up there.

Another Alaska guy says I'd be laughed out of the state for suggesting a 10mm.

If a 10mm can reverse the Earth's rotation, I figured it would be a handy hip gun for bear country. Sure, take a slug gun too. But sometimes you probably set the shotgun down to do stuff :)

shotgunred
08-27-2012, 21:04
Ok, so from other threads I've learned that 32 ACP is just fine for bear defense...

but on a more serious note, given the choice of the two, if hiking in bear country, would you prefer an M1A or some kind of "tactical" shotgun (minimum 8+1) with slugs or similar? What would your ammo choice be, respective to your selection?

Or, do you think neither of these wouldn't be adequate with some of the larger varieties of bear?

On a serious note....

Sometimes I carry my G23 but mostly I depend on bear spray and a portable boat air horn.http://rideliquid.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Air_Horn.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l18/whidbeyphotos/grizz.jpg Yes I get close to them.

glock2740
08-27-2012, 21:05
All you need are some bells and pepper spray:

227397

:rofl:

Seriously, I'd feel quite confident with the shotgun.
I forgot to post that. I'm glad you did. :rofl: I laugh everytime I read that. :rofl:

AK_Stick
08-27-2012, 21:06
See now I'm confused.

One Alaska guy says 10mm is adequate and popular up there.

Another Alaska guy says I'd be laughed out of the state for suggesting a 10mm.

If a 10mm can reverse the Earth's rotation, I figured it would be a handy hip gun for bear country. Sure, take a slug gun too. But sometimes you probably set the shotgun down to do stuff :)



Its one of those things, the 10mm has been increasing in popularity here in AK, because its a great woods gun, that does a good job when used with regular bullets as a CCW.

Having killed a bear with a 10mm (black) I wouldn't carry it as my side arm in the field hunting, where you have a very good likelyhood of running into bears.


I do however, carry mine when I'm out for a hike or on the property because with good cast lead loads, its more than capable of killing a bear.

A 44, or any of the bigger guns, are a better bet, but the 10mm/357 are certainly big enough.

Warp
08-27-2012, 21:40
Its one of those things, the 10mm has been increasing in popularity here in AK, because its a great woods gun, that does a good job when used with regular bullets as a CCW.

Having killed a bear with a 10mm (black) I wouldn't carry it as my side arm in the field hunting, where you have a very good likelyhood of running into bears.


I do however, carry mine when I'm out for a hike or on the property because with good cast lead loads, its more than capable of killing a bear.

A 44, or any of the bigger guns, are a better bet, but the 10mm/357 are certainly big enough.

This says a lot, to me.

RJ's Guns
08-28-2012, 00:21
Its one of those things, the 10mm has been increasing in popularity here in AK, because its a great woods gun, that does a good job when used with regular bullets as a CCW.

Having killed a bear with a 10mm (black) I wouldn't carry it as my side arm in the field hunting, where you have a very good likelyhood of running into bears.


I do however, carry mine when I'm out for a hike or on the property because with good cast lead loads, its more than capable of killing a bear.

A 44, or any of the bigger guns, are a better bet, but the 10mm/357 are certainly big enough.



Killing a 150-350 lbs. black bear is a very different situation than a 900 – 1500 lbs. Grizzly or Brown Bear. How about a 1000 – 1500 lbs. Moose. Moose are all over the place in Alaska (I once saw one on a roof of a house during the winter. It climbed up there on a pile of frozen snow and ice to eat some tree tops). Moose are a serious danger and, like a big bear, you have to break down a shoulder or destroy their spine/spinal cord/central nervous system to stop them from killing you before they eventually die from blood lossand trauma. In addition, anyone that has spent much time in Alaska should know that.

Shure you can kill a big bear with a 10mm, an Eskimo woman killed a record size Brown Bear with a 22 LR, but what is the likelihood that a 10mm is going to stop a CHARGING big bear or Moose before it kills you?

I think that you are delusional when you state, “the 10mm/357 are certainly big enough.” I called a couple of Professional Alaskan Guides and read them your post, but Glock Talk rules prohibit me from quoting them, suffice it to say that they thought it was irresponsible of you suggest that a “10mm/357 are certainly big enough”.

RJ

RJ's Guns
08-28-2012, 00:37
See now I'm confused.

One Alaska guy says 10mm is adequate and popular up there.

Another Alaska guy says I'd be laughed out of the state for suggesting a 10mm.

If a 10mm can reverse the Earth's rotation, I figured it would be a handy hip gun for bear country. Sure, take a slug gun too. But sometimes you probably set the shotgun down to do stuff :)


Do not be foolish, call up somewhere like Great Northern Guns, in Anchorage (they have been in business for at least 30-40 years. If memory serves me correctly, I am pretty sure that the owner's name is Joe) and ask them what they think of a 10mm as a defense against big bear and moose. You will make their day and give everyone that comes into that gun store a real good laugh for months to come.

A 357/10mm for defense against big bear and moose, you only hear that kind of BS on Glock Talk.

RJ

youngdocglock
08-28-2012, 00:44
Heres my OP.

I was born in Alaska. so this holds "some" weight behind it.


Pistol:

.500 mag
.454 casul.
.44 magnum MINIMUM
anything less will just piss it off.


Rifle

.700 mag or greater :-D 44-70 is good too.

Shotgun:

High capacity shotgun. Tube fed *double barrel if its a must but you want multiple rounds*

I stagger between 1oz slugs and 00 buckshot.

1 slug, one buckshot ,1 slug and so on.

The reason i say this is the slug will make a nice hole, but like a fmj 9mm its usually a through and through, unless you hit something vital it will have the same effect of a fmj 9mm on a person.

The following shot of buckshot will tear up the flesh in the area doing a lot more damage

The following slug after that if aimed in teh same place as the previous two will then remove most of that tattered flesh and make a VERY VERY large hole and the more you hit the larger that wound will become giving you the best chance of hitting something that will drop said bear like a sack-o-taters.

If you know what your doing , aim for the face or UPPER center mass with the shotgun, bears organs are placed differently than ours and the upper part of the chest region, where the center of your breastplate would be........is the best place to hit :-)

Hope this helps.

RJ's Guns
08-28-2012, 00:54
Heres my OP.

I was born in Alaska. so this holds "some" weight behind it.


Pistol:

.500 mag
.454 casul.
.44 magnum MINIMUM
anything less will just piss it off.


Rifle

.700 mag or greater :-D 44-70 is good too.

Shotgun:

High capacity shotgun. Tube fed *double barrel if its a must but you want multiple rounds*

I stagger between 1oz slugs and 00 buckshot.

1 slug, one buckshot ,1 slug and so on.

The reason i say this is the slug will make a nice hole, but like a fmj 9mm its usually a through and through, unless you hit something vital it will have the same effect of a fmj 9mm on a person.

The following shot of buckshot will tear up the flesh in the area doing a lot more damage

The following slug after that if aimed in teh same place as the previous two will then remove most of that tattered flesh and make a VERY VERY large hole and the more you hit the larger that wound will become giving you the best chance of hitting something that will drop said bear like a sack-o-taters.

If you know what your doing , aim for the face or UPPER center mass with the shotgun, bears organs are placed differently than ours and the upper part of the chest region, where the center of your breastplate would be........is the best place to hit :-)

Hope this helps.

Sound advice and I agree.

RJ

AK_Stick
08-28-2012, 01:09
RJ, do you have any practical experience in AK, or are you talking off the credentials of some guys you claim to have talked to, during the middle of hunting season in AK?



As I said, I've got nearly 30 years afield, and have killed every big game animal we have, with the exception of musk ox, and buffalo. Included in that, are (4) Brown bears, (2) Grizzly's, and (6) black bears, the one taken with my 10mm, having put in at 600 lbs, on a maintained scale in Whittier Harbor. I've taken more Moose and Bou than I can count. I generally get 1-2 moose a year, and have taken 4+ bou for years.


Its fine and all to "claim" they don't work. But I live up here, and I see more and more guys afield with Glock 20's and 357 revolvers every year.


Oh, and the "Professional Alaskan Guide" I packed meat for, for two years? He carried a 357 mag.

While we're on the subject of "Alaskan Guides" It'd be funny to mention Phil Shoemaker, one of, if not THE, foremost bear guide in AK, what's he advocate carrying? A 357. I can supply a direct quote, and a number so you can ask him yourself if you'd like.

He'll also tell you, quite plainly, that a 180 grain 357 round, will shoot clean through the head of a 10' brownie.


But perhaps you'd like to call him a liar?

12smile
08-28-2012, 01:15
Noob question:

Where do you shoot a bear?

I'm guessing right in the heart..Where would that be?

Center of chest, 12" below the shoulders?

AK_Stick
08-28-2012, 01:23
Noob question:

Where do you shoot a bear?

I'm guessing right in the heart..Where would that be?

Center of chest, 12" below the shoulders?


From the front, or from the side?


Unless he's not presenting any other shot, I'll typically try to get a bear from the side, and put a round into the shoulders. If I can, and I've got a big enough gun that I know I'm going to get an exit (338+ typically), I'll try for a high shoulder/low spine hit, as that will anchor them, and blow enough bone fragments into the heart/lungs to kill them.


From front on, if I have to, I'd shoot just under the head, into the neck/low chest. But I don't like those shots, as they'll typically involve the guts. And that makes skinning/meat recovery a PITA.


If my gun is too small for me to expect a double shoulder penetration, I'll either smash the onside shoulder, and heart/lungs, or put the bullet just behind the onside shoulder, and get heart/lungs and try and get a piece of the offside shoulder.


With a charging bear, you pretty much have to hit the CNS to stop him. I spined the only bear I've ever shot on the run, when I missed the head shot, and hit him between the shoulder blades.

12smile
08-28-2012, 01:36
I spined the only bear I've ever shot on the run, when I missed the head shot, and hit him between the shoulder blades.

Wow....I'm thinking from the front. I'm not a hunter...so center mass...a bit lower than the shoulders....heart area?

I'm thinking a neck shot would be a small target. My last second shot would be a head shot beteen the eyes...bet they have pretty thick skulls.

Thanks

AK_Stick
08-28-2012, 01:53
It's not so much they have thick skulls, as they're rounded, and it's mostly fatty flesh above the eye brows. Most of the "shots that just bounced off" infact go into that, and never really struck the skull. I'll post some photos of one of my bear skulls tomorrow.

From the front though, the heart is just a touch below where the neck meets the chest. Aiming right under the chin will get you either the heart/lungs, or the major veins/arteries that run just above it. But as I said, you generally end up dealing with gut damage. So most shooters I know will wait for something else to present itself.

youngdocglock
08-28-2012, 03:05
It's not so much they have thick skulls, as they're rounded, and it's mostly fatty flesh above the eye brows. Most of the "shots that just bounced off" infact go into that, and never really struck the skull. I'll post some photos of one of my bear skulls tomorrow.

From the front though, the heart is just a touch below where the neck meets the chest. Aiming right under the chin will get you either the heart/lungs, or the major veins/arteries that run just above it. But as I said, you generally end up dealing with gut damage. So most shooters I know will wait for something else to present itself.

Finally! Someone who actually knkws bears! Ive seen so many people state that the heart is below the ribcage that i want to scream haha

I always tell people to aim mid breastplate and up towards the throat....otherwise your just gonna make him really really mad :)

And you are right about the .357 if the shot placement is good. It will work. I just prefer to use the largest round i can. Because we All know if were even being bluff charged...... and we miss.....may be the last one we ever miss. Bigger be better. I would use a .50bmg if it were practical haha


+1 on not being a GT b.s.'er buddy! You know your stuff haha

sent from my phone. i am not responsible for spelling errors, jumbled words, spanglish or anything else. blame a touch screen and autocorrect :)

BuckyP
08-28-2012, 06:02
The 357, is a very popular caliber up here, because it has less recoil, and drives a heavy, dense bullet at a good clip. The 10mm for the same reason. Both are capable of penetrating the shoulder of a large brownie, and reaching the vitals.

While 44's are more common, and 454's 475's 480's being less common but certainly around, the 357 and 10mm, are by no means "not enough gun" or uncommon.


Well, the 10mm is a non issue for me, as I'm not looking to add another caliber. I do have a .357, and a .44 that I bought with the thought that I may go sight seeing in bear country. (The fact that I got a SMOKING deal on it didn't hurt either :supergrin:).

I will add I'm not looking for an encounter, in fact seriously hope to avoid it. However, hope to see some bear activity from a nice safe distance if possible.

It's not so much they have thick skulls, as they're rounded, and it's mostly fatty flesh above the eye brows. Most of the "shots that just bounced off" infact go into that, and never really struck the skull. I'll post some photos of one of my bear skulls tomorrow.

From the front though, the heart is just a touch below where the neck meets the chest. Aiming right under the chin will get you either the heart/lungs, or the major veins/arteries that run just above it. But as I said, you generally end up dealing with gut damage. So most shooters I know will wait for something else to present itself.

This is great info, and probably a question I should also have asked. Would never had thought that 1. Head shots are not ideal, and 2. the heart was so high up in the body.


Certainly. Anything you want/need to know I'd be happy to help with. If the timing works out, I'll even have you and the family to my place for moose steaks.


That's awfully kind of you. May take you up on that. :wavey:

Never had Moose before. We did try Elk when we were in CO.

Indy_Guy_77
08-28-2012, 09:39
I guess that my personal friend who, living on KODIAK ISLAND, having recently (within last year or so) purchased a S&W 686 in .357, on the advice of several others - who also own and regularly & routinely carry .357 revolvers...is just a bunch of GT BS.

Who'd have thought.

It's one of those things: If you expect trouble - bring your rifle. A .357 revolver is meant to get you out of trouble. It's not a bear hunting gun.

-J-

youngdocglock
08-28-2012, 11:17
I guess that my personal friend who, living on KODIAK ISLAND, having recently (within last year or so) purchased a S&W 686 in .357, on the advice of several others - who also own and regularly & routinely carry .357 revolvers...is just a bunch of GT BS.

Who'd have thought.

It's one of those things: If you expect trouble - bring your rifle. A .357 revolver is meant to get you out of trouble. It's not a bear hunting gun.

-J-

The pistol is for when you miss, or trip amd drop your rifle. Gives "some" secondary option. A bear can charge at almost 30mph......if its a bolt action....you only get the one shot usually.

sent from my phone. i am not responsible for spelling errors, jumbled words, spanglish or anything else. blame a touch screen and autocorrect :)

countrygun
08-28-2012, 12:09
From the front, or from the side?


Unless he's not presenting any other shot, I'll typically try to get a bear from the side, and put a round into the shoulders. If I can, and I've got a big enough gun that I know I'm going to get an exit (338+ typically), I'll try for a high shoulder/low spine hit, as that will anchor them, and blow enough bone fragments into the heart/lungs to kill them.


From front on, if I have to, I'd shoot just under the head, into the neck/low chest. But I don't like those shots, as they'll typically involve the guts. And that makes skinning/meat recovery a PITA.


If my gun is too small for me to expect a double shoulder penetration, I'll either smash the onside shoulder, and heart/lungs, or put the bullet just behind the onside shoulder, and get heart/lungs and try and get a piece of the offside shoulder.


With a charging bear, you pretty much have to hit the CNS to stop him. I spined the only bear I've ever shot on the run, when I missed the head shot, and hit him between the shoulder blades.


Pretty much the same way we do the smaller black bears around here.


I am somehow reminded of the parody of William F. Buckley I heard once.

"Let us not refer to them as "Black bears" or "Brown bears, let us merely call them "Third-world Bears"

RJ's Guns
08-28-2012, 13:32
RJ, do you have any practical experience in AK, or are you talking off the credentials of some guys you claim to have talked to, during the middle of hunting season in AK?



As I said, I've got nearly 30 years afield, and have killed every big game animal we have, with the exception of musk ox, and buffalo. Included in that, are (4) Brown bears, (2) Grizzly's, and (6) black bears, the one taken with my 10mm, having put in at 600 lbs, on a maintained scale in Whittier Harbor. I've taken more Moose and Bou than I can count. I generally get 1-2 moose a year, and have taken 4+ bou for years.


Its fine and all to "claim" they don't work. But I live up here, and I see more and more guys afield with Glock 20's and 357 revolvers every year.


Oh, and the "Professional Alaskan Guide" I packed meat for, for two years? He carried a 357 mag.

While we're on the subject of "Alaskan Guides" It'd be funny to mention Phil Shoemaker, one of, if not THE, foremost bear guide in AK, what's he advocate carrying? A 357. I can supply a direct quote, and a number so you can ask him yourself if you'd like.

He'll also tell you, quite plainly, that a 180 grain 357 round, will shoot clean through the head of a 10' brownie.


But perhaps you'd like to call him a liar?



As I stated previously, I lived in Alaska, for 12 years. I still spend a lot of time up there visiting family. My brother lives a few miles from the Deshka Landing. As I also stated, I have literally thousands of hours on horseback in the woods of Alaska. I do not care if you believe it or not. I know that with almost 16000 postings on GLock Talk you are an authority on everything related to firearms. I on the other hand, would never waste that much time, as I prefer to live life and not just talk about it.

I have met a lot of fools in Alaska, as elsewhere. Just because you can state that so and so is doing whatever, does not mean that it is the sensible thing to do. Look at how many people voted for our dear leader,and I consider that insane. Just because you claim to have killed, a lot of game does not mean that you are giving good advice. Just because you claim to live in Alaska, does not empower you with the mental acuity and reason.

Sure, you can kill a large bear with a 357 or a 10 mm. I have no doubt that with a proper load and properly placed hit with a 357 or a 10 mm, it will penetrate to vital organs and eventually kill the bear by trauma and blood loss. ( I forget his name, I think it was Poncho something, but the person that killed the most elephants used a 7.92×57mm Mauser, but he also had people backing him up with much larger weapons) But, with a 357 or a 10 mm the margin for error of the point of impact is small. And with the sudden surprise of a charging bear or moose, the smaller the margin of error the more likely it is that the bear/moose will kill you before they eventually die. Is it sound advice to tell some person that is totally inexperienced in the woods of Alaska,that a PISTOL that provides for the smallest margin for error, “is good enough”. When I rode my horse in the Alaskan woods, all I carried was a 38 J frame, and that was for defense against two legged dangerous animals. I felt confident enough in my horsemanship and experience in the woods that I was not worried about four legged animals (plus trying to shoot something running after you from on top of a running horse is a futile endeavor).For me, I thought it better to concentrate on staying on the horse and getting away. No way did I recommend that to others.

I realize that it is terribly wrong of me to criticize such a wise old sage as someone with almost 16,000 postings on Glock talk, but as I said before, I think that your advice is irresponsible and foolish, which in my opinion does not speak well of you.

RJ

PS I am not calling Phil Shoemaker a liar, but I do think that he is a fool if he recommends a 357 as a proper defense weapon against big bear and moose. And if I happen to run across him sometime when I am in Alaska, I would not hesitate to tell him that to his face.

adamg01
08-28-2012, 14:13
You need to use the air horn while the bear is charging. That way after it gets done killing you, they will be able to find your remains.

On a side-note, bears are a lot faster than we are, that is all that matters. 12 gauge slugs all the way.

AZ Cat
08-28-2012, 16:03
It's not so much they have thick skulls, as they're rounded, and it's mostly fatty flesh above the eye brows. Most of the "shots that just bounced off" infact go into that, and never really struck the skull. I'll post some photos of one of my bear skulls tomorrow.

From the front though, the heart is just a touch below where the neck meets the chest. Aiming right under the chin will get you either the heart/lungs, or the major veins/arteries that run just above it. But as I said, you generally end up dealing with gut damage. So most shooters I know will wait for something else to present itself.

AK_Stick, just curious...what do you think of .45 Auto?

Sent from my DROID Pro using Tapatalk 2

shotgunred
08-28-2012, 16:40
You need to use the air horn while the bear is charging. That way after it gets done killing you, they will be able to find your remains.

On a side-note, bears are a lot faster than we are, that is all that matters. 12 gauge slugs all the way.

Laugh if you want:crying: but I have been closer to a lot of grizzlies than most people.
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l18/whidbeyphotos/stupid.jpg Not me!

ithaca_deerslayer
08-28-2012, 18:13
When I rode my horse in the Alaskan woods, all I carried was a 38 J frame, and that was for defense against two legged dangerous animals. I felt confident enough in my horsemanship and experience in the woods that I was not worried about four legged animals (plus trying to shoot something running after you from on top of a running horse is a futile endeavor).For me, I thought it better to concentrate on staying on the horse and getting away. No way did I recommend that to others.
Horses can dump people, or dump themselves.

I sometimes carry a j-frame because it conceals well, but there are lots better guns for two-leggers if concealment isn't high priority.

Seems as though a Glock in 10mm would be the ideal handgun for horseback riding in Alaska :)

Deaf Smith
08-28-2012, 20:19
Dang...

Another attack.

http://www.adn.com/2012/08/28/2602166/seattle-woman-survives-attack.html

Couldn't get her pepper spray out in time.

Deaf

AK_Stick
08-28-2012, 20:22
Dang...

Another attack.

http://www.adn.com/2012/08/28/2602166/seattle-woman-survives-attack.html

Couldn't get her pepper spray out in time.

Deaf

Thats in the rough area of where I hunt.


Lots of bears around mining camps, they get pretty bold eating from the trash.

RJ's Guns
08-28-2012, 21:18
For those that are contemplating or advocating using a 357/10 mm in Alaska as a defense weapon against large bear and moose, consider this; many people have found a 357/10 mm to be inadequate in stopping a human being. A lot of experts (for example, Col Jeff Cooper and his disciples) do not believe that a 357/10 mm can be counted upon to reliably stop a human determined to cause someone serious harm.

For the sake of argument, reasonable minds could not differ, that at best, it is questionable that a 357/10mm can reliably stop a human determined to cause someone serious harm. In fact, many people have not been stopped by a 357/10 mm. If a 357/10mm is, at best, questionable with regards to reliably stopping a human determined to cause someone serious harm, is it less questionable/more reliable against large bear or moose determined to cause someone serious harm. A human is puny in comparison to large bear and moose and a puny human is infinitely easier to stop than a charging big bear or moose.

My choice is logical, reasoned and sound, is yours? Are you going to listen to the Glock Talk Obi-Wan Kenobis and let them guide you down the “Prim Rose Path?” Oh well, a lot of people think that there are too many people on this earth and that we need some major culling of the herd. I will not lose sleep over your choice.

RJ

Warp
08-28-2012, 23:34
That's a good point.

AK_Stick
08-29-2012, 00:20
The only sure bet to stopping a charging bear, is with a CNS hit.


Most people can not shoot 44+ calibers well enough on a flat range to make a CNS hit on the vitals of a bear. Much less trying to draw under stress, and make the same shot.


But I know a whole slew of shooters who are capable of much better accuracy with 10mm/357/41 mag class gun. And a 10mm/357, is perfectly capable penetrating deep enough to make said CNS hit.


A 44, or a 454+ you can't shoot, will do you no good in the brush. Nor will the 500/460's that get left in camp.

AK_Stick
08-29-2012, 00:33
As I stated previously, I lived in Alaska, for 12 years. I still spend a lot of time up there visiting family. My brother lives a few miles from the Deshka Landing. As I also stated, I have literally thousands of hours on horseback in the woods of Alaska. I do not care if you believe it or not. I know that with almost 16000 postings on GLock Talk you are an authority on everything related to firearms. I on the other hand, would never waste that much time, as I prefer to live life and not just talk about it.

I have met a lot of fools in Alaska, as elsewhere. Just because you can state that so and so is doing whatever, does not mean that it is the sensible thing to do. Look at how many people voted for our dear leader,and I consider that insane. Just because you claim to have killed, a lot of game does not mean that you are giving good advice. Just because you claim to live in Alaska, does not empower you with the mental acuity and reason.

Sure, you can kill a large bear with a 357 or a 10 mm. I have no doubt that with a proper load and properly placed hit with a 357 or a 10 mm, it will penetrate to vital organs and eventually kill the bear by trauma and blood loss. ( I forget his name, I think it was Poncho something, but the person that killed the most elephants used a 7.92×57mm Mauser, but he also had people backing him up with much larger weapons) But, with a 357 or a 10 mm the margin for error of the point of impact is small. And with the sudden surprise of a charging bear or moose, the smaller the margin of error the more likely it is that the bear/moose will kill you before they eventually die. Is it sound advice to tell some person that is totally inexperienced in the woods of Alaska,that a PISTOL that provides for the smallest margin for error, “is good enough”. When I rode my horse in the Alaskan woods, all I carried was a 38 J frame, and that was for defense against two legged dangerous animals. I felt confident enough in my horsemanship and experience in the woods that I was not worried about four legged animals (plus trying to shoot something running after you from on top of a running horse is a futile endeavor).For me, I thought it better to concentrate on staying on the horse and getting away. No way did I recommend that to others.

I realize that it is terribly wrong of me to criticize such a wise old sage as someone with almost 16,000 postings on Glock talk, but as I said before, I think that your advice is irresponsible and foolish, which in my opinion does not speak well of you.

RJ

PS I am not calling Phil Shoemaker a liar, but I do think that he is a fool if he recommends a 357 as a proper defense weapon against big bear and moose. And if I happen to run across him sometime when I am in Alaska, I would not hesitate to tell him that to his face.


I'm unsure if you're talking about John "Pondoro" Taylor, or Walter Dalrymple Maitland "Karamojo" Bell but neither used a 7.92x57 Mauser (aka 8mm Mauser)

WDM Bell, probably killed the most and is generally accept as such, used a 7x57, (aka the 275 Rigby), but he wasn't regularly backed up by high powered rifles, and extra hands, quite a bit of his hunting was done solo.

John Taylor, would have been much more likely to have had backup, being born in 1904, and has 1K there about elephant to his name, but he had a well discussed, and oft mentioned love for large bore double rifles, and the 375 H&H.



Its all fine and dandy, to point out my # of posts, and try to personally insult me when you have such a poor argument. But when you start bringing up famous hunters, and make such glaring factual errors, in such well known tales, one must question the rest of your argument's validity.



Its cool though, I'm enjoying laughing at your posts, if nothing else, you've given me some humor while I'm packing up for my bear hunt. Please, continue to tell us Alaskans how we don't know what we're doing/talking about

Warp
08-29-2012, 00:54
The only sure bet to stopping a charging bear, is with a CNS hit.


Most people can not shoot 44+ calibers well enough on a flat range to make a CNS hit on the vitals of a bear. Much less trying to draw under stress, and make the same shot.


But I know a whole slew of shooters who are capable of much better accuracy with 10mm/357/41 mag class gun. And a 10mm/357, is perfectly capable penetrating deep enough to make said CNS hit.


A 44, or a 454+ you can't shoot, will do you no good in the brush. Nor will the 500/460's that get left in camp.

So...you are relying on a CNS hit on a charging bear. Odds would not seem to be in your favor.

AK_Stick
08-29-2012, 01:10
So...you are relying on a CNS hit on a charging bear. Odds would not seem to be in your favor.



You're a what, 200 ish lb human, vs a 650-1500 lb predator, at probably less than 50 yds, much more like 50-75 feet. I certainly don't think the odds are in your favor. People have been mauled going after bears in thick brush with a rifle in their hands. Make no mistake about it, when you're in the thick stuff, you're in their element.



The flip side, is that the majority of bear charges, as with most animal charges, are false charges that will stop short of actually hitting you.

IMO the majority of bear charges, where the bear is fired upon, and the bear turns, were bluff charges, and displays of aggression, and when the bear got hit, he realized the other party wasn't bluffing. A bear, even wounded, that really wants you, is going to keep coming until you've killed him. And they're capable of absorbing quite a bit of punishment before they give up.

The problem, is you can't ever be really sure which it is, up until its too late. The only real safe choice, is to have a distance, or line picked out, and if the bear crosses it, you burn him.


Unwounded, bears will typically run a short distance, hole up and die. Unless you break them down, or hit the CNS, I've never seen them drop to the shot.

Wounded, or pissed off, you have a problem. They have a fairly slow heart beat, so it takes a while to bleed out, and they're capable of producing some serious adrenaline. Once they get spun up, trying to kill one, is kinda like trying to fight a furry Sherman.

ithaca_deerslayer
08-29-2012, 05:40
You're a what, 200 ish lb human, vs a 650-1500 lb predator, at probably less than 50 yds, much more like 50-75 feet. I certainly don't think the odds are in your favor. People have been mauled going after bears in thick brush with a rifle in their hands. Make no mistake about it, when you're in the thick stuff, you're in their element.



The flip side, is that the majority of bear charges, as with most animal charges, are false charges that will stop short of actually hitting you.

IMO the majority of bear charges, where the bear is fired upon, and the bear turns, were bluff charges, and displays of aggression, and when the bear got hit, he realized the other party wasn't bluffing. A bear, even wounded, that really wants you, is going to keep coming until you've killed him. And they're capable of absorbing quite a bit of punishment before they give up.

The problem, is you can't ever be really sure which it is, up until its too late. The only real safe choice, is to have a distance, or line picked out, and if the bear crosses it, you burn him.


Unwounded, bears will typically run a short distance, hole up and die. Unless you break them down, or hit the CNS, I've never seen them drop to the shot.

Wounded, or pissed off, you have a problem. They have a fairly slow heart beat, so it takes a while to bleed out, and they're capable of producing some serious adrenaline. Once they get spun up, trying to kill one, is kinda like trying to fight a furry Sherman.

Wouldn't what you describe suggest bear spray? Use it and if a bluff, no harm done?

I favor a gun over spray, for people defense. And have no western bear experience. A gun seems more certain to me. But if confronted with a bluff, then perhaps bear spray.

Problem I see is trying to juggle spray and a gun. The gun would be going with me no matter what.

Any thoughts on that? What's your opinion of bear spray?

RJ's Guns
08-29-2012, 12:31
Most people can not shoot 44+ calibers well enough on a flat range to make a CNS hit on the vitals of a bear. Much less trying to draw under stress, and make the same shot.


But I know a whole slew of shooters who are capable of much better accuracy with 10mm/357/41 mag class gun.

.


Are you saying then, that if both revolvers are properly cited in for the applicable ammunition, that there will be an appreciable difference in the point of impact of the first shot (with a charging large bear/Moose, at best, an inexperienced shooter will only be able to get off one shot) of a Smith & Wesson 357 Magnum, N frame model 27, 6 inch barrel, as would be the case with a Smith & Wesson 44 Magnum model 29, N frame, 6 inch barrel?

What is your basis for such a statement? Really, what is your relevant frame of reference? I thought that you stated, and I may be wrong, that you have spent approximately 30 years in Alaska and I thought that you stated that you lived somewhere around Kenai. Where have you spent a substantial amount of time at a shooting range, that draws from a large pool of population, where you would have observed large groups of people shooting the relevant handguns to make your observation that “shooters ... are capable of much better accuracy with 10mm/357/41 mag class gun.” Are you pontificating without any real frame of reference to justify your pronouncements?

RJ

acaligunner
08-29-2012, 12:40
If you had a choice between a 12g Shotgun with Brenneke slugs,
And a Marlin lever action guide gun with 540 Garrett rounds, which one would you say- offers more stopping/put down power?

What advantages would one have over the other. Thanks

RJ's Guns
08-29-2012, 12:53
If you had a choice between a 12g Shotgun with Brenneke slugs,
And a Marlin lever action guide gun with 540 Garrett rounds, which one would you say- offers more stopping/put down power?

What advantages would one have over the other. Thanks

A shotgun offers the advantage of using 00 buchshot. A prior post by another forum member discusses 00 Buckshot. I can get off accurate follow-up shots with an auto-loader (Benelli) 12 gauge, faster than I can with a lever-action.

RJ

method
08-29-2012, 13:13
Are you saying then, that if both revolvers are properly cited in for the applicable ammunition, that there will be an appreciable difference in the point of impact of the first shot (with a charging large bear/Moose, at best, an inexperienced shooter will only be able to get off one shot) of a Smith & Wesson 357 Magnum, N frame model 27, 6 inch barrel, as would be the case with a Smith & Wesson 44 Magnum model 29, N frame, 6 inch barrel?

What is your basis for such a statement? Really, what is your relevant frame of reference? I thought that you stated, and I may be wrong, that you have spent approximately 30 years in Alaska and I thought that you stated that you lived somewhere around Kenai. Where have you spent a substantial amount of time at a shooting range, that draws from a large pool of population, where you would have observed large groups of people shooting the relevant handguns to make your observation that “shooters ... are capable of much better accuracy with 10mm/357/41 mag class gun.” Are you pontificating without any real frame of reference to justify your pronouncements?

RJ

All he's saying is that all else being equal, shooters tend to do better with lighter calibers. That's pretty obvious.

Something else that's pretty obvious, like AK Stick has already said, the only frontal hits that are going to stop a bear quickly are the brain and the spine. Once the bullet is in the brain pan and bouncing around a bit, I doubt it much matters what caliber it is or what cartridge it came from. There was a story out of Alaska a few years ago of a bear being stopped with a 9mm pistol.

Now, it's hard to talk about a 9mm being a bear stopper with a straight face, but it does have some penetrating ability.

countrygun
08-29-2012, 13:20
All he's saying is that all else being equal, shooters tend to do better with lighter calibers. That's pretty obvious.

Something else that's pretty obvious, like AK Stick has already said, the only frontal hits that are going to stop a bear quickly are the brain and the spine. Once the bullet is in the brain pan and bouncing around a bit, I doubt it much matters what caliber it is or what cartridge it came from. There was a story out of Alaska a few years ago of a bear being stopped with a 9mm pistol.

Now, it's hard to talk about a 9mm being a bear stopper with a straight face, but it does have some penetrating ability.


I do know people in blck bear country who figure they have to crack the skull on a face-on charging bear so they carry a .30 Tokarev figuring it's penetration capability balances other factors. "It doesn't matter WHAT you crack the skull with, and it doesn't matter if it doesn't"

It's a theory anyway, can't say it's totally without merit.

AK_Stick
08-29-2012, 13:29
If you had a choice between a 12g Shotgun with Brenneke slugs,
And a Marlin lever action guide gun with 540 Garrett rounds, which one would you say- offers more stopping/put down power?

What advantages would one have over the other. Thanks

Well I'd take a lever gun first as it gives you the ability to take a shot from further away, and I'm more proficient with a lever gun than a pump gun.

Warp
08-29-2012, 14:06
A shotgun offers the advantage of using 00 buchshot. A prior post by another forum member discusses 00 Buckshot. I can get off accurate follow-up shots with an auto-loader (Benelli) 12 gauge, faster than I can with a lever-action.

RJ


I don't consider buckshot to be an advantage when talking about grizzly/brown bear. Not nearly enough penetration for my liking. Slugs all the way, preferably brenneke

Shipwreck-The-Sequel
08-29-2012, 14:53
A nice semi auto shotgun with lots of slugs :)

method
08-29-2012, 15:02
I do know people in blck bear country who figure they have to crack the skull on a face-on charging bear so they carry a .30 Tokarev figuring it's penetration capability balances other factors. "It doesn't matter WHAT you crack the skull with, and it doesn't matter if it doesn't"

It's a theory anyway, can't say it's totally without merit.

I almost mentioned the .30 Tokarev, it's a mean little penetrator. Shot at a heavy axle hub once...9mm dented it, 7.62x25 blew right through it.

youngdocglock
08-29-2012, 15:11
I don't consider buckshot to be an advantage when talking about grizzly/brown bear. Not nearly enough penetration for my liking. Slugs all the way, preferably brenneke

Buckshot alone. Your right. A combination of both.....10x more effective than slugs alone. Any day of the week

speak softly and carry a big stick; youll go far-Theodore Roosevelt.

RJ's Guns
08-29-2012, 17:15
All he's saying is that all else being equal, shooters tend to do better with lighter calibers. That's pretty obvious.
.



It is not "obvious." As a matter of fact, In the relevant situation, I believe that it is borderline preposterous. The primary factors that affect the point of impact of an individual's first shot are primarily: site picture, trigger control, grip, stance, barrel length, and the weight of the handgun. Some opine, and I tend to agree, that individuals tend to "pull their shots off target" less with a heavier handgun, because the forces, relative to the trigger pull weight, are to some degree, offset by the extra weight of the handgun. The caliber of the handgun, other than possibly inducing some degree of "flinch", has nothing to do with the point of impact. And with a charging large bear or Moose, I doubt that anyone would be affected by worrying about muzzle flip/recoil/noise, which are the relevant factors contributing to "flinching".

I am most curious as to the factual basis of your statement, please elaborate and explain how you believe that it is true that "All he's saying is that all else being equal, shooters tend to do better with lighter calibers. That's pretty obvious.” We are not talking about spending hours at the range, shooting heavy caliber handguns, and the stress that it may place on some individuals. We are talking about, probably no more than one shot in a high stress situation.

Now I do not know, if you fall into this category, but I am fully prepared to debate my position against AK Stick and his sycophants.
RJ

ithaca_deerslayer
08-29-2012, 18:20
caliber of the handgun, other than possibly inducing some degree of "flinch", has nothing to do with the point of impact.

Flinch is the reason.

A novice hasn't learned the basics of aiming.

Soon after, flinch wrecks the progress a novice desires. The less felt recoil, the less flinch.

There we go, back to all other things equal, people become more accurate shooters when less felt recoil.

Warp
08-29-2012, 22:19
Buckshot alone. Your right. A combination of both.....10x more effective than slugs alone. Any day of the week

speak softly and carry a big stick; youll go far-Theodore Roosevelt.

The buckshot doesn't penetrate any further because there are slugs next to it in the tube.

youngdocglock
08-29-2012, 22:22
The buckshot doesn't penetrate any further because there are slugs next to it in the tube.

no but have you ever seen the carnage of 00 buckshot followed by a slug? much nastier than a slug. and 00 buckshot-slug-00 buckshot.......that is a GAPING wound. ;-)


00 weakens the flesh/muscle, than the slug rips through it all leaving a huge wound channel, then the second round of 00 takes all the damaged muscle/flesh around the wound channel and strips it out leaving a hole the size of a cantaloupe :-D i've tried it on a dead hog......slugs made holes, buckshot made little holes, the method above? 4 rounds at 15 yards.cutt the hog in half..........its EFFECTIVE ;-)

countrygun
08-29-2012, 22:28
no but have you ever seen the carnage of 00 buckshot followed by a slug? much nastier than a slug. and 00 buckshot-slug-00 buckshot.......that is a GAPING wound. ;-)


00 weakens the flesh/muscle, than the slug rips through it all leaving a huge wound channel, then the second round of 00 takes all the damaged muscle/flesh around the wound channel and strips it out leaving a hole the size of a cantaloupe :-D i've tried it on a dead hog............its EFFECTIVE ;-)


Nice theory

I think every Grizzly should read it so they know what to do if shot with buck.

RJ's Guns
08-29-2012, 22:28
Flinch is the reason.

A novice hasn't learned the basics of aiming.

Soon after, flinch wrecks the progress a novice desires. The less felt recoil, the less flinch.

There we go, back to all other things equal, people become more accurate shooters when less felt recoil.


I understand about flinching, and the problems that it can cause. There was a time, when my flinch was so persistent/consistent that I would dial in my sights to compensate for my fault. However, I have, over the years, spent a considerable amount of time at shooting ranges in the proximity of relatively large metropolitan areas (such as Los Angeles and other parts of California,Oregon, Washington and Alaska). I have seen literally thousands individuals, of varying abilities and expertise, shoot various firearms. I like to sit back behind the firing line, resting and loading a bunch of magazines, watching individuals shoot. I have seen, what appeared to be novices and individuals with relatively little shooting experience, flinch badly shooting a 357 mag/10mm/41mag. For the people that you addressed, the novices, shooting a 357 mag/10mm/41mag is hardly a panacea for a flinch.

I have not actually tested novices/those with little experience in this regards, but I seriously doubt that those individuals would flinch much more shooting, something like a 44 Magnum/454 Casull, than they would a 357 mag/10mm/41 mag of similar configuration, etc., to the point that it would make an appreciable difference relative to how accurately/inaccurately they would shoot, particularly, under the stress of defending their life against a charge/attack by a large bear or Moose. I would hazard to guess, that most individuals, even the more experienced shooters, would jerk the trigger under that type of a situation, no matter what caliber handgun they were shooting. If so, the whole premise that a 357 mag/10mm/41 mag, is better, fails horribly.

Now going back to my original underlying theme; I consider it lacking common sense, ill-advised, ill-conceived and irresponsible to recommend to someone, a handgun chambered for 357 mag/10mm, that is questionable, at best against humans, as a defense weapon against a charging/attacking large bear or Moose, because their skill level/experience is insufficient to accurately shoot a handgun that is, arguably, more lethal. For those individuals, prudence, reason and common sense would dictate that they use some other type of firearm (other than a handgun) such as a rifle of sufficient caliber or as I would recommend, a 12 gauge shotgun.

RJ

youngdocglock
08-29-2012, 22:39
Nice theory

I think every Grizzly should read it so they know what to do if shot with buck.

No Theory...fact. Dont believe it. Grab a 12 guage and try it yourself :-)

With a bear......a Benelli M4 semi auto or another semi auto is key for speed of this. But staggering 00/slugs will destroy whatever its aimed at faster than anything else out there. leaves an exit wound and entrance wound like a .50BMG at close range. Its kind of disgusting actually but the most effective stopping tool for cheap for anything that moves :-)

Trick is ........firing slugs out of a buck barrel.....not accurate. and finding a choke that will accept both is .....difficult :-D


However if you dont have a gun that will do this.

Get some ballistic gel. Fire a round of buck into her, change choke/barrel fire a slug into the same hole, then swap back to buck and fire again.......the gel will either slop off the table, or split down the center ;-)

Warp
08-29-2012, 22:46
Trick is ........firing slugs out of a buck barrel.....not accurate. and finding a choke that will accept both is .....difficult :-

How does the saying go...not sure if serious...

AK_Stick
08-29-2012, 22:51
Wouldn't what you describe suggest bear spray? Use it and if a bluff, no harm done?

I favor a gun over spray, for people defense. And have no western bear experience. A gun seems more certain to me. But if confronted with a bluff, then perhaps bear spray.

Problem I see is trying to juggle spray and a gun. The gun would be going with me no matter what.

Any thoughts on that? What's your opinion of bear spray?


Sorry it took so long to reply, had to work late.


Bear spray is good stuff. When the conditions are pefect for its employment.

i.e. not raining, with the wind, or no wind, plenty of warning, and room to manuver/employ it without getting it on yourself. And from what I've seen, it works most of the time.



However, my rifle works all of the time.


I'm not good enough, and I don't trust my reflexes/judgement enough to wait till I'm sure its a legit charge before I fire. If the bear charges, and he crosses my line in the sand, I will put lead into him.

AK_Stick
08-29-2012, 23:00
Now I do not know, if you fall into this category, but I am fully prepared to debate my position against AK Stick and his sycophants.
RJ





You're not debating anything.


You haven't presented any facts, and just about everything you've said so far has had either glaring factual errors (see "Poncho and the 8mm Mauser") Or reeks of lack of actual experience on the topic.



I asked before, how much actual experience do you have around bears? So you spent 12 years in AK, and your brother lives here. That doesn't really have anything to do with the topic.




And to answer your question, A, I do not live anywhere near Kenai, I work out of Anchorage, and live out past Wasilla, and B, I'm a military RSO/Range NCOIC in the .mil, a weapons/marksmanship instructor in the .mil, and a volunteer RSO/instructor on the civilian side.

So I've got a small bit of experience watching people shoot. Though I make no claims to be any sort of expert, I certainly seem to see alot of people shoot smaller guns better than bigger guns. Mayhaps some other instructors could indulge me if my experience flies in the face of theirs.

youngdocglock
08-29-2012, 23:02
How does the saying go...not sure if serious...

thats the beauty of it man!:tongueout::rofl:

There are reasons behind my madness.

However buck slug buck is nasty serious.

the rest is for everyone to wonder upon

countrygun
08-29-2012, 23:04
No Theory...fact. Dont believe it. Grab a 12 guage and try it yourself :-)

With a bear......a Benelli M4 semi auto or another semi auto is key for speed of this. But staggering 00/slugs will destroy whatever its aimed at faster than anything else out there. leaves an exit wound and entrance wound like a .50BMG at close range. Its kind of disgusting actually but the most effective stopping tool for cheap for anything that moves :-)

Trick is ........firing slugs out of a buck barrel.....not accurate. and finding a choke that will accept both is .....difficult :-D


However if you dont have a gun that will do this.

Get some ballistic gel. Fire a round of buck into her, change choke/barrel fire a slug into the same hole, then swap back to buck and fire again.......the gel will either slop off the table, or split down the center ;-)

I have six anti-personal/tactical/riot guns, I got my first training with them back in '80

Here is a sample of some of the buckshot rounds I have tested.

http://i648.photobucket.com/albums/uu208/countrygun/IM002774.jpg



I have also hunted black bear and from just that and extrapolating the size and agressiveness, there is no way I would want buckshot as my first round, or any round if I was charged by a griz or brown bear.

youngdocglock
08-29-2012, 23:05
I have six anti-personal/tactical/riot guns, I got my first training with them back in '80

Here is a sample of some of the buckshot rounds I have tested.

http://i648.photobucket.com/albums/uu208/countrygun/IM002774.jpg



I have also hunted black bear and from just that and extrapolating the size and agressiveness, there is no way I would want buckshot as my first round, or any round if I was charged by a griz or brown bear.

Then fire slug first. Either way will have the same effect. nice cavity from the slug, then having the guts of said wound ripped clean out by the buckshot :-)

Same principle. different order haha

countrygun
08-29-2012, 23:12
Then fire slug first. Either way will have the same effect. nice cavity from the slug, then having the guts of said wound ripped clean out by the buckshot :-)

Same principle. different order haha


On a charging bear you are going to put two rounds into the same place, bearing in mind(pardon the pun) at close range the buckshot will, if you are lucky, amke one hole.

Also,a single buck pellet is about the equivilant of a .36 cal black powder revolver round. I wouldn't count on one to crack a bear's skull much less puncture the vitals before the bear proved I was biodegradible. I don't get much more comfort out of throwing a hand full of them at him at a distance or a bunch in a bundle at close range.

I admit, again to not having the experience of the big bears, but I wouldn't be totally comfortable with buck on a PO'ed blackie.

youngdocglock
08-29-2012, 23:15
On a charging bear you are going to put two rounds into the same place, bearing in mingd at close range the buckshot will, if you are lucky, amke one hole.

Also (pardon the pun) bear with me here,a single buck pellet is about the equivilant of a .36 cal black powder revolver round. I wouldn't count on one to crack a bear's skull much less puncture the vitals before the bear proved I was biodegradible. I don't get much more comfort out of throwing a hand full of them at him at a distance or a bunch in a bundle at close range.

I admit, again to not having the experience of the big bears, but I wouldn't be totally comfortable with buck on a PO'ed blackie.

I wouldnt either haha.

Big bears charge QUICK. if your first slug dont kill him....your probably dead :-)

if you can get off a second slug and it doesnt hit a vital.....your dead. so why not just make sure that 5-10 min of mauling you indeed kills him from the massive gaping hole you've put in him with a follow up of buck. at least all his efforts will cause him to bleed out that way :-)

IF your leaving......take the sucker with you :-) :rofl:

but seriously .....try it out sometime man. youll like the result on ballistics gel :-)

Warp
08-29-2012, 23:19
there is no way I would want buckshot as my first round, or any round if I was charged by a griz or brown bear.

Same here.

But then this thread is the first time I've seen anybody even pretend to seriously support buckshot for large bear defense.

I still think he has to be trolling...

AK_Stick
08-29-2012, 23:22
Well, while I don't support the idea of buckshot for bear defense, there are quite a few AK old timers who swear by it, as the first round to blind/take out the nose of a charging bear, and/or to wait till they get close, and pretty much destroy the face.


Not sure I'd want to try it, but there are enough bush vets I know who swear by it that it has to have atleast SOME truth.

youngdocglock
08-29-2012, 23:23
Same here.

But then this thread is the first time I've seen anybody even pretend to seriously support buckshot for large bear defense.

I still think he has to be trolling...

me? troll? :rofl: no! lol

trolling if i were to say this would work at any range other than right as you smell what the bear had for dinner.

I've seen this method used in AK by some residents as a "last ditch effort"

the buck would be 100% uneffective at more than 8 or so feet because of the spread. Not to mention in all seriousness. pegging the same place with the two shots...tricky.

Just giving some food for thought :wavey:

youngdocglock
08-29-2012, 23:24
Well, while I don't support the idea of buckshot for bear defense, there are quite a few AK old timers who swear by it, as the first round to blind/take out the nose of a charging bear, and/or to wait till they get close, and pretty much destroy the face.


Not sure I'd want to try it, but there are enough bush vets I know who swear by it that it has to have atleast SOME truth.

+1

My neighbor taught me this method. Kept him alive a couple times. either blind the sucker with pellets , or make sure him and you die that day.

Warp
08-29-2012, 23:26
me? troll? :rofl: no! lol

trolling if i were to say this would work at any range other than right as you smell what the bear had for dinner.

I've seen this method used in AK by some residents as a "last ditch effort"

the buck would be 100% uneffective at more than 8 or so feet because of the spread. Not to mention in all seriousness. pegging the same place with the two shots...tricky.

Just giving some food for thought :wavey:

So you would carry something that you believe wouldn't have a chance of working...on a charging large bear...at greater than 8 feet.

Okay.

Rock Hound
08-29-2012, 23:28
I'd have to suspect Bucky just wanted a laugh as he had to assume how this thread would unravel.

If you are sensitive to recoil, get used to it. Its gonna feel better then your head in a bears mouth. (how most deaths due to bear attack actually occur) Buying big guns is cool and fun. So is shooting them.

Keep in mind,
12 gauge, cheaper guns and ammo normally and often quicker to follow up shots.

Buckshot, likely non lethal beyond 15 ft. Closer than that and it will perform like a slug.
A Slug, 1-1.25oz, has excellent weight retention but due to slower velocity delivers less knock down energy than a big magnum rifle.

Id recommend .338 win mag or .375 HH. Even BIGGER is better so learn to shoot them.

I carry a 10mm loaded hot with 15 200 grain cmjs as my normal woods gun (insures a least one left over for me if things go real bad ;) ) but when Im going deep or where the browns or grizzy have been seen recently I carry a SW 500 mag. I have crossed paths with dozens of bear and most often Id have time for one shot at best if that had needed to be the case.

I know bear guides and the hunters always carry a large bore magnum rifle and at least 2 guys run back up with slug guns.

Ive been toying with a SW 460 due to the ability to run 45 LC, 454 casull and the sw460 cartridge.

youngdocglock
08-29-2012, 23:31
So you would carry something that you believe wouldn't have a chance of working...on a charging large bear...at greater than 8 feet.

Okay.

No. i would not. when in AK i carry a 700mag and a .500 mag :-D

However. if done correctly. these two shots would create more damage than either of the above mentioned rounds.

Believe it or not. In AK you dont see the bear charging :wavey: you hear it, when its usually 15 feet off. Then you tactically crap your pants, and hope that you can get your gun leveled and fire before a massive paw throws you to the ground.

The movies where the bear comes from across a stream to investigate......not so much fact as what people believe happens.

Usually your on a trail, and startle the bear which is within some hot bear luvin distance and you only get one shot at living. So in that situation. i would rather have buck and slug...than .40 cal :-D

My point was the massive effect this combo CAN have. Never did i say try it on a live bear :-p

smokeross
08-29-2012, 23:34
I have killed over 20 black bears. One was with my bow. Several with obsolete calibers in lever guns. Many with my .44 magnum. One was a full blown charge from less than 15 feet. He hangs on my wall. I have tracked and dispatched many wounded bears shot by others. It's always in the thick brush. I have only killed one Brownie, a trophy class male. Could have shot plenty of others, but I don't eat Brownies so they are safe if they leave me alone. The one I did kill was with a model 71 Winchester lever gun in .348 with hand loads. He took 7 shots. The .348 holds 5 so I did a quick reload at 25 paces. Heart pumping, baby.

youngdocglock
08-29-2012, 23:36
I have killed over 20 black bears. One was with my bow. Several with obsolete calibers in lever guns. Many with my .44 magnum. One was a full blown charge from less than 15 feet. He hangs on my wall. I have tracked and dispatched many wounded bears shot by others. It's always in the thick brush. I have only killed one Brownie, a trophy class male. Could have shot plenty of others, but I don't eat Brownies so they are safe if they leave me alone. The one I did kill was with a model 71 Winchester lever gun in .348 with hand loads. He took 7 shots. The .348 holds 5 so I did a quick reload at 25 paces. Heart pumping, baby.

This here.........is the cure for constipation in ANY circumstance. i can tell you that as a fact.

youngdocglock
08-29-2012, 23:39
In honesty. Im just in one of those moods to be sarcastic and have fun.

Honest Opinion. If you think your going to have to shoot a bear to save your life. Buy the biggest, most powerful gun you can afford, aim mid-breastplate or higher and pray.

I kid alot, its in my nature. But i've lived in AK, i dont hunt, but i've had to shoot one or two, its scary, your heart will jump out of your chest and you dont want to bet your life on a small round. :-)

shark_za
08-29-2012, 23:47
Moose? Do moose attack people over there?

Warp
08-29-2012, 23:48
Moose? Do moose attack people over there?

Sure do.

youngdocglock
08-29-2012, 23:50
Moose? Do moose attack people over there?

The great northern Moose is the most largest dangerous animal in the US.

Especially during mating season. The moose to us is like the Elephant to Africa. Big, sometimes docile but when pissed.........haha run.

AK_Stick
08-30-2012, 00:02
Pretty sure the deer still takes the cake as the most dangerous animal in NA, but moose certainly rank higher than bears.


We typically have relatively few bear attacks a year, and I think we generally go a year or more between bear attack fatalities.

Moose kill people on the regular.



I've run from far more moose in AK than bear.

youngdocglock
08-30-2012, 00:12
Pretty sure the deer still takes the cake as the most dangerous animal in NA, but moose certainly rank higher than bears.


We typically have relatively few bear attacks a year, and I think we generally go a year or more between bear attack fatalities.

Moose kill people on the regular.



I've run from far more moose in AK than bear.


Only run-in i've had is in Grafton Notch State Park in Western Maine.

There is a place called the "Mossfield" where deer go to eat.

I took my ex there probably 3 summers ago for a nice tour as i lived maybe 20 min away.

We went to screw auger falls, then i showed her "moose cave" yes it has that name for a reason.

The trail from moose cave runs down a large set of wooden stairs and then hooks up and to the right, through some thick woods, to the clearing known as the mossfield, low lying rocks covered with i think like 20 kinds of moss.

As we got to the field i was showing her the antler marks on the trees etc. didnt see or hear anything around us. Apparently moose are extremely graceful and quiet.

Well we headed back on the trail that runs up and to the left, to the parking lot and when we came round the bend there it was. Gigantic bull. Staring right at us.

Left hoof started digging a bit and its head went down. Probably would have trampled us both if the trail wasnt so steep and winding, finally gained good distance when we got back to the very steep wooden steps and are like a man made inclined S curve.

Tell ya one thing. .......i almost needed new pants by the time we got to the car.

method
08-30-2012, 00:31
Trick is ........firing slugs out of a buck barrel.....not accurate. and finding a choke that will accept both is .....difficult :-D



I've never run into either such trick. Improved cylinder or modified has always done well with both buck and slug for me.

youngdocglock
08-30-2012, 00:33
I've never run into either such trick. Improved cylinder or modified has always done well with both buck and slug for me.

was a sarcastic quote haha i was just messin with people :wavey:

RJ's Guns
08-30-2012, 01:03
You're not debating anything.


You haven't presented any facts, and just about everything you've said so far has had either glaring factual errors (see "Poncho and the 8mm Mauser") Or reeks of lack of actual experience on the topic.



I asked before, how much actual experience do you have around bears? So you spent 12 years in AK, and your brother lives here. That doesn't really have anything to do with the topic.




And to answer your question, A, I do not live anywhere near Kenai, I work out of Anchorage, and live out past Wasilla, and B, I'm a military RSO/Range NCOIC in the .mil, a weapons/marksmanship instructor in the .mil, and a volunteer RSO/instructor on the civilian side.

So I've got a small bit of experience watching people shoot. Though I make no claims to be any sort of expert, I certainly seem to see alot of people shoot smaller guns better than bigger guns. Mayhaps some other instructors could indulge me if my experience flies in the face of theirs.


Regarding: "You're not debating anything."

Obviously, the common usage of the English language is not your forte. Look up the definition and synonyms of the word "debate"

Regarding "You haven't presented any facts, and just about everything you've said so far has had either glaring factual errors (see "Poncho andthe 8mm Mauser") Or reeks of lack of actual experience on the topic."

In furtherance of my response, above, lookup the definition and synonyms of "facts". Using your own misusage of "fact" and your own standard, what "facts" have you brought to bear?

At least one Glock Talk regular posted that “That's a good point”, in reference to one of my postings, so I must have stated something relevant and worthwhile.

I stated that “I forget his name, I think it was Poncho something...” If that qualifier, was not sufficient notification for you, I would suggest that you take an English class.

I admit that I made an error when I stated 7.92×57mm Mauser instead of a 7x57, but if you missed the point that I was trying to make; that just because a very large animal could eventually die from a small caliber wound, does not make a relatively small caliber weapon an appropriate defense firearm against large bear and moose, perhaps you should take a reading comprehensionclass.

Regarding "I asked before, how much actual experience do you have around bears? So you spent 12 years in AK, and your brother lives here. That doesn'treally have anything to do with the topic."

How can I more adequately respond to that question, than to state that I have literally thousands of hours in the woods of Alaska. I have never worked in a zoo, a circus or a facility that houses and takes care of large bears. Do you expect that I had a stopwatch and kept the time when I was "around bears"? Perhaps if you had better command of the English language and could articulate what you meant in a more precise manner, I could, arguably respond differently. Your questions suffers from ambiguity and vagueness.

By the time that I moved to Alaska I did not want to kill anymore animals unless it was necessary to protect my life or others and I do not like the taste of game meat. However, my shooting skills and relevant reputation was such that friends and relatives continually solicited me to accompany them, as a backup, on hunts. I do not have an accurate memory as to the actual numbers, quite frankly, I do not like to see dead animals (or dead humans, I have seen more than enough autopsies to last me a lifetime) and I prefer to forget, but I have seen a number of large bear and moose killed by a variety of different firearms and watched and participated in the field butchering of the meat and skinning of the bear hides.

Furthermore, one of my clients, was the (or one of the) State Troopers that was tasked with determining what weapons and ammunition were to be used by some members of Alaska Fish And Game. I was an observer and a participant in that endeavor.

And now I realize that I have not been a sycophant of the "Great Alaska Oracle on High", and we will both have to live with that, but I still stand by what I said and the criticisms that I have made.

RJ

AK_Stick
08-30-2012, 01:08
Are you saying you've never actually taken a bear in AK?



If that is infact the case, I suppose there really is nothing else I have to say, you've pretty much proven my point.

ithaca_deerslayer
08-30-2012, 05:36
Sorry it took so long to reply, had to work late.


Bear spray is good stuff. When the conditions are pefect for its employment.

i.e. not raining, with the wind, or no wind, plenty of warning, and room to manuver/employ it without getting it on yourself. And from what I've seen, it works most of the time.



However, my rifle works all of the time.


I'm not good enough, and I don't trust my reflexes/judgement enough to wait till I'm sure its a legit charge before I fire. If the bear charges, and he crosses my line in the sand, I will put lead into him.

Thanks. That's pretty much how I feel about spray and people self-defense :)

BuckyP
08-30-2012, 06:28
I'd have to suspect Bucky just wanted a laugh as he had to assume how this thread would unravel.


No, my ask was serious, and so far feel I got some good info. It seems unanimous that a slug is better than a .308, which I didn't know going in.

I don't mind differences of opinions, but wish the hostility would tone down a bit, especially when it's in large font. That being said, the discussions on GT are usually quite helpful if you can read past that, or I wouldn't bother posting.

Both sides have good points. The argument for the .357 over the .44 is that it may be easier to control. It appears there was no denying the .44 is better, if shot to the same ability. As a well seasoned handgun shooter, I have no issues handling a .44, so for me, it is obviously the better choice.

I am well into the infancy stages of looking into this. There is a likelihood that once we get into the specifics, our site seeing could be via guided tours, whereas this issue would likely be handled, though I prefer to always have a backup plan. :cool:

ETA: If nothing else, I got a standing invite for Moose steaks!
:eat:

F_G
08-30-2012, 07:32
I lived in Alaska for 4 years back in the mid 80's. Most of the guides I knew or ran into carried 12 gauge pump guns, and most of those were loaded with a combination of slugs and 00 buck. Usually the loading went buck, buck, buck, slug, slug, slug and so forth depending upon capacity of said weapon. The theory was you had slugs to engage at a distance and if they made it through that then the 00 came into play. Seemed like sound reasoning to me and that is what I carried on most of my secluded fishing hikes. Fortunately I never had to test this theory, ran into plenty of bears, both Brown and Black, but for the most part they seemed more scared of me than I was of them.....wasn't true as I nearly soiled my undies a couple of times. :wow:

Chances of using your pistol is pretty much zilch. Unless you're planning on shooting yourself.This isn't far from the truth. When I first got to Alaska, I like so many figured a .44mag was the way to go. On one of my many fishing hikes I ran into an old miner back behind Peters Creek and we got to talking. He asked me about my chosen anti-bear accoutrement and in my best Dirty Harry voice gave him my justification. His response to me was, "make sure you only shoot the bear 5 times, you gonna' want to save the last shot for yourself after you piss him off". BTW, Ol' Walt was carrying a pump gun loaded as I described above.

AZ Cat
08-30-2012, 08:13
AK_Stick, just curious...what do you think of .45 Auto?

Sent from my DROID Pro using Tapatalk 2

This may have gotten lost in the carnage of this thread, but I'm honestly curious about your thoughts on .45 Auto. Thanks.

sourdough44
08-30-2012, 09:28
Well, remember the guy that killed the grizzly in Denali park last year with his 45 acp? It took about 8 shots & the bear ran a few 100' or so before dying, but it did die. Sounds like it wouldn't of stopped a charge very well.

AK_Stick
08-30-2012, 11:03
I would hesitate to use a 45, unless it was all I had simply because 45 ACP, has never been a strong penetrator, and that's the key requirement for bear. Being able to push a bullet deep enough to penetrate the vitals, possibly through large, heavy bone structure.

youngdocglock
08-30-2012, 11:15
I would hesitate to use a 45, unless it was all I had simply because 45 ACP, has never been a strong penetrator, and that's the key requirement for bear. Being able to push a bullet deep enough to penetrate the vitals, possibly through large, heavy bone structure.

I will use whatever gun i can against a bear......that being said i PRAY its a very big gun and not a small one.....lol

speak softly and carry a big stick; youll go far-Theodore Roosevelt.

AKRover
08-30-2012, 11:20
It depends in part what kind of bear you expect to run into.

Black bear...I'll take my Browning Lever in .308 with 180 grain bullets. Plus my BLR is lighter than my shotgun by at least half a pound

Brown bear, either a shotgun with slugs or my 8 MM Mauser loaded heavy.

Grizzlies...I haven't been around Grizzlies a lot and don't know too much about their habits. But based on what I've read here and elsewhere the best thing would be to just stay away from them...and a shotgun with slugs

Interesting fact, grizzlies and brown bears are the same beast, just different location. Grizzly bears, in Alaska anyway, are generally found in the interior and the north slope. Brown bears are found along the coast and get huge on Kodiak Island. The difference in appearance of brown bears and grizzlies is a result of their different diets.

youngdocglock
08-30-2012, 11:35
Interesting fact, grizzlies and brown bears are the same beast, just different location. Grizzly bears, in Alaska anyway, are generally found in the interior and the north slope. Brown bears are found along the coast and get huge on Kodiak Island. The difference in appearance of brown bears and grizzlies is a result of their different diets.

Brown bears have smooth fur. Grizzlies, have tangled unmanageable non combed hair : p

Really its true. Grizzlies are callsd grizzlies because of thier poofy rough coat :)

speak softly and carry a big stick; youll go far-Theodore Roosevelt.

RJ's Guns
08-30-2012, 12:35
Are you saying you've never actually taken a bear in AK?



If that is infact the case, I suppose there really is nothing else I have to say, you've pretty much proven my point.


Your arguments and the issues you raise against me, are inane and asinine. You should really take a logic class so that you could differentiate cogent issues from fallacious drivel.

In what manner does it matter who pulled the trigger if the effects at the time of the bullets impact and the resulting damage done to the animal are observed and noted?

By your line of reasoning, an autopsy of a shooting victim, and the resulting findings would be worthless. You would never make it as a litigator, you would be laughed out of court.

When I read your posts, a Samuel Clemens quote comes to mind: "It is better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than to open it and remove all doubt."

RJ

JuneyBooney
08-30-2012, 13:23
Ok, so from other threads I've learned that 32 ACP is just fine for bear defense...

but on a more serious note, given the choice of the two, if hiking in bear country, would you prefer an M1A or some kind of "tactical" shotgun (minimum 8+1) with slugs or similar? What would your ammo choice be, respective to your selection?

Or, do you think neither of these wouldn't be adequate with some of the larger varieties of bear?

A .32 is fine because I won't mess with a bear. :whistling: If you have a "flash bang" or a shotgun that will make lots of noise that would deter most bears from your area. I carry bear spray while in the woods taking pictures. I also carry a long gun and a Ruger Redhawk 44 just in case. But I am more afraid of two legged snakes in the woods than "bears". :faint:I am just glad that the Brown Bears are in the west..they are some big critters. I heard tell of a guy in WV that thought he killed a bear with his car, placed him in the trunk and when the trunk lid was popped up the bear jumped out..injured, but not dead.

cajun_chooter
08-30-2012, 15:21
i read an article on how to avoid bear attacks while hiking in the woods..

it stated that wearing small bells warn a bear of your presence.. carrying pepper spray was recommended for
confronting a bear attack..
but it also stated in the same article... that bear droppings
sometimes contain bells & smell like pepper... :rofl:

ithaca_deerslayer
08-30-2012, 16:41
Your arguments and the issues you raise against me, are inane and asinine. You should really take a logic class so that you could differentiate cogent issues from fallacious drivel.

In what manner does it matter who pulled the trigger if the effects at the time of the bullets impact and the resulting damage done to the animal are observed and noted?

By your line of reasoning, an autopsy of a shooting victim, and the resulting findings would be worthless. You would never make it as a litigator, you would be laughed out of court.

When I read your posts, a Samuel Clemens quote comes to mind: "It is better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than to open it and remove all doubt."

RJ

AK_Stick is far from illogical, just based on his posts.

You were talking about recoil and caliber to make shots. So having experience of actually shooting bear is important in this discussion.

Actually having to do something yourself tends to put you in the drivers seat, so to speak, and makes you aware of some things :)

Deaf Smith
08-30-2012, 17:03
Uh... is RJ Gunkid??

Nah, Gunkid would have used a few more risqué adjectives by now.

Deaf

smokeross
08-30-2012, 18:54
A .32 is fine because I won't mess with a bear. :whistling: If you have a "flash bang" or a shotgun that will make lots of noise that would deter most bears from your area. I carry bear spray while in the woods taking pictures. I also carry a long gun and a Ruger Redhawk 44 just in case. But I am more afraid of two legged snakes in the woods than "bears". :faint:I am just glad that the Brown Bears are in the west..they are some big critters. I heard tell of a guy in WV that thought he killed a bear with his car, placed him in the trunk and when the trunk lid was popped up the bear jumped out..injured, but not dead.
The 'flash bang' thing doesn't work up here in areas that have large game populations. The bears come running when you shoot, looking for an easy meal. That is why someone stands guard while the gutting is being done. My brother torched off a .7mm Mag to 'scare off' some curious Brownies while we were gutting caribou. The bears were staning on their hind legs looking our way. At the sound of the shot they dropped to all fours and came running our way.

Rock Hound
08-30-2012, 23:15
The 'flash bang' thing doesn't work up here in areas that have large game populations. The bears come running when you shoot, looking for an easy meal. That is why someone stands guard while the gutting is being done. My brother torched off a .7mm Mag to 'scare off' some curious Brownies while we were gutting caribou. The bears were staning on their hind legs looking our way. At the sound of the shot they dropped to all fours and came running our way.

Ive heard this so many times!

OctoberRust
08-31-2012, 05:57
Ok, so from other threads I've learned that 32 ACP is just fine for bear defense...

but on a more serious note, given the choice of the two, if hiking in bear country, would you prefer an M1A or some kind of "tactical" shotgun (minimum 8+1) with slugs or similar? What would your ammo choice be, respective to your selection?

Or, do you think neither of these wouldn't be adequate with some of the larger varieties of bear?

Canyon man said that my .32 acp was just fine! He said use the lightest/fasted bullets and I'd be good to go. :supergrin:


On a serious note. 1 oz slugs @ 1600 fps should do. I would feel comfortable using my 6 shot mossberg 500 too, I don't think one could get all 8 shots off at a charging bear, and probably not even 6. So might as well save yourself some weight, and barrel length for maneuverability.

F_G
08-31-2012, 07:20
The 'flash bang' thing doesn't work up here in areas that have large game populations. The bears come running when you shoot, looking for an easy meal. That is why someone stands guard while the gutting is being done. My brother torched off a .7mm Mag to 'scare off' some curious Brownies while we were gutting caribou. The bears were staning on their hind legs looking our way. At the sound of the shot they dropped to all fours and came running our way.Caribou hunting is the only big game I hunted when I was in Alaska, I thank god this never happened to me. I never even considered this as an issue, probably lucky I guess. Did shoot a Caribou when I was at King Salmon once, we were only able to get the quarters before dark, we figured the rest of the carcass would freeze overnight and we would be back in the morning to retrieve the rest.............wrong, wolves finished off the rest before we could return, oh well, at least it didn't go to waste.

UtahIrishman
08-31-2012, 19:37
Interesting fact, grizzlies and brown bears are the same beast, just different location. Grizzly bears, in Alaska anyway, are generally found in the interior and the north slope. Brown bears are found along the coast and get huge on Kodiak Island. The difference in appearance of brown bears and grizzlies is a result of their different diets.

The brown bears that I am familiar with at least are those that are in the southern Sierra Nevada Mountains, mainly Kings Canyon.

I don't know. :dunno: I've only seen a Grizzly up close and personal once. To me they don't look anything alike. The Browns I've seen don't have the characteristic hump that a Grizzly does.

Kind of like a basketball player and a football player I suppose. Both human, but they don't even look remotely alike.

shotgunred
08-31-2012, 20:50
Browns and grizzly's are the exact same species.
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l18/whidbeyphotos/jack.jpg

Jade Falcon
08-31-2012, 21:23
For handguns, I'll take my .357 with the heaviest loads I can put into it.

But I'd rather take my 16" lever-action carbine in .454 Casull, with 300 grain SJSP's. I estimate factory spec'ed ammo would get close to 2,000 fps, with about 2,000 ft-lbs of muzzle-energy. All that in a tiny, light, and very accurate carbine? I'd feel perfectly safe with that, and it would be perfect for long trips on foot.

aznav
09-01-2012, 13:27
shotgun with slugs and a very large revolver on the hip, 500s&w, .454 cassul


I've researched this thing in spades, honest. The above answer is all you need to know. And "research" means getting the straight skinny from first person accounts of men and women who have lived a lifetime or two in grizzly country.

One caveat: Aside from all the dry humor, a well-researched bear spray is probably a very good Plan A and a whole lot lighter.

ps. It also seems that most folks get off one round, maybe two if they are lucky. A 40mph 1000+ lb beast has a way of freezing the brain for a moment or two.

malleable
09-01-2012, 14:36
I didn't read all the posts so it may have already been mentioned but there was a recall on the black magic slugs you might want to check.
http://www.gandermountain.com/assets/pdf/Safety%20Warning%20and%20Recall%20Notice%20information__final.pdf

G26AZ
09-01-2012, 15:05
I can't remember where I read it, but the guy said all he carried was a small .22 revolver in bear country. When asked why, the reply was something about not needing to shoot the bear, just knee-cap your partner then you can out run him and the bear will leave you alone. :supergrin:

Deaf Smith
09-01-2012, 17:07
Brenneke 'Black Magic' slugs.

http://www.brennekeusa.com

Calibre: 12 GA 3”
Weight: 1 3/8oz, 600 grs, 39g
1500 fps. Yes that's Fifteen hundred for a 600 grain slug. 3000 ft/lb at close range.

Basically a 20mm rifle (and I bet it kicks.)

Or their LEO ' Maximum Barrier Penetration Magnum'

Calibre: 12 GA
Weight: 1 ⅜ oz. 600 grs, 39g
1650 fps with 3545 ft/lb energy.

Warning: they say it's made to penetrate engines among other things and may shoot through an awful lot!

Or worse,, their new 'Magnum Crush' 12 gauge slugs.

Calibre: 12 GA 3"
Weight: 1 1/2 ounce, 666 grs, 43 g
1600 fps and 3800 ft/lb of energy (and kicks even more.)

Supposedly made for rifled barrels but it still looks fine for smooth bore to me.

I suspect these ought to do for any bear that ever walked.

Deaf

bigscottius
09-01-2012, 19:31
Hey guys. I just thought I'd put some input on this topic.

I'm from Montana. I've hunted black bears and I've often traversed into grizzly country (Yellowstone and the North West part of Montana).

First thing is to know your surroundings. Keep an eye out for tracks, scat, diggings, carcasses, etc. Also make noise. Let the bear know you're there. If camping, make sure all food is taken care of properly, or anything with a smell to it. Basic steps will help avoid the encounter all together.

As far as guns...I've heard from an Alaskan friend that he took down a moose with three shots from his 10mm. Knowing this guy, I take it with a grain of salt.

I carry my mossberg 500 loaded (18 inch barrel, pistol grip, 5+1 slugs). My brother carries a .44 magnum black hawk. That's just for hiking or camping. We've never had to put them to the test.

As far as hunting black bear I mostly use my father's .375 H&H. Though once I took my Remington 7mm (never used it though).

Shot placement -- Lungs, heart, shoulder (can hit a lot of arteries and such in these areas). Shoulders can actually cripple the animal and stop a charge (good luck with that lol).

Also bears move quick and can be very silent as well. I admit, I'm not the most experienced with these (2 black bears) and I appreciate reading all your guy's experiences and learning from your knowledge.

thaddeus
09-04-2012, 06:44
Grizzly bear emerges from thicket and killed by hiker with. 45 pistol:

http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com/2010/05/grizzly-bear-shot-and-killed-hikers-denali-national-park-and-preserve5943

Man kills 460 lb bear with pistol:

http://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/local/Bear-Shooting-Case-Continued-156985385.html

Officer kills charging bear with one shot from service revolver:
!
http://abcnews.go.com/m/story?id=14775964

Man kills bear in backyard with one shot from pellet rifle (yeah it took 20 minutes to die but the man surved and you get the point):

http://projects.registerguard.com/web/newslocalnews/27323722-41/bear-christensen-florence-police-bears.html.csp

Man shoots bear with handgun and saves his dog's life during bear attack;

http://westhartford.patch.com/articles/man-shoots-at-bear-that-attacks-dog-at-west-hartford-reservoir

Police shoot 56 exotic predators including an attacking bear and big cats using service pistols and rifles:

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE79I0U720111020?irpc=932

Arizona man attacked in sleep by bear, bitten, mauled and dragged off. Camper stops bear with several shots from a 9mm:

http://waznmentobe.com/guns/armed-camper-thwarts-bear-attack.html



Everytime i see a bear thread people insist a handgun is useless. Well Google it.
I was looking for a story I saw in the news of police who tracked and killed a man-eating bear with their 9mm's. There are tons of news reports of people usong guns to stop bear attacks and they didn't need a Barrett .50 cal or shotgun slugs or even just a .44 mag.
I easily stumbled on all the recent stories above of people stopping and killing even a charging grizzly with a .45, a man who stopped a bear in mid-attack with his pistol, and an police officer who dropped a charging bear at 7 feet with one shot from a service revolver.

Warp
09-04-2012, 08:53
Grizzly bear emerges from thicket and killed by hiker with. 45 pistol:

http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com/2010/05/grizzly-bear-shot-and-killed-hikers-denali-national-park-and-preserve5943

Man kills 460 lb bear with pistol:

http://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/local/Bear-Shooting-Case-Continued-156985385.html

Officer kills charging bear with one shot from service revolver:
!
http://abcnews.go.com/m/story?id=14775964

Man kills bear in backyard with one shot from pellet rifle (yeah it took 20 minutes to die but the man surved and you get the point):

http://projects.registerguard.com/web/newslocalnews/27323722-41/bear-christensen-florence-police-bears.html.csp

Man shoots bear with handgun and saves his dog's life during bear attack;

http://westhartford.patch.com/articles/man-shoots-at-bear-that-attacks-dog-at-west-hartford-reservoir

Police shoot 56 exotic predators including an attacking bear and big cats using service pistols and rifles:

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE79I0U720111020?irpc=932

Arizona man attacked in sleep by bear, bitten, mauled and dragged off. Camper stops bear with several shots from a 9mm:

http://waznmentobe.com/guns/armed-camper-thwarts-bear-attack.html



Everytime i see a bear thread people insist a handgun is useless. Well Google it.
I was looking for a story I saw in the news of police who tracked and killed a man-eating bear with their 9mm's. There are tons of news reports of people usong guns to stop bear attacks and they didn't need a Barrett .50 cal or shotgun slugs or even just a .44 mag.
I easily stumbled on all the recent stories above of people stopping and killing even a charging grizzly with a .45, a man who stopped a bear in mid-attack with his pistol, and an police officer who dropped a charging bear at 7 feet with one shot from a service revolver.


People do not "insist a handgun is useless".

There are also lots of reports out there of people using .22lr to defend themselves against other people but, as we all know, that doesn't make it a good choice for self defense.

AK_Stick
09-05-2012, 11:46
Caribou hunting is the only big game I hunted when I was in Alaska, I thank god this never happened to me. I never even considered this as an issue, probably lucky I guess. Did shoot a Caribou when I was at King Salmon once, we were only able to get the quarters before dark, we figured the rest of the carcass would freeze overnight and we would be back in the morning to retrieve the rest.............wrong, wolves finished off the rest before we could return, oh well, at least it didn't go to waste.


It depends entirely upon where you hunt.

In my neck of the woods, grizzly's know they're on the menu and are much more likely to head for the hills at the first sign of a commotion.

Where Ross is, the bears are larger, and in some area's are more restricted on hunting, so they don't care nearly as much. I've been to a couple places where it was lottery drawing only for a tag, and some of those bears couldn't care less if you were there, they'd try and push you right off a kill.

BuckyP
09-05-2012, 13:50
Grizzly bear emerges from thicket and killed by hiker with. 45 pistol:

http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com/2010/05/grizzly-bear-shot-and-killed-hikers-denali-national-park-and-preserve5943

Man kills 460 lb bear with pistol:

http://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/local/Bear-Shooting-Case-Continued-156985385.html

Officer kills charging bear with one shot from service revolver:
!
http://abcnews.go.com/m/story?id=14775964

Man kills bear in backyard with one shot from pellet rifle (yeah it took 20 minutes to die but the man surved and you get the point):

http://projects.registerguard.com/web/newslocalnews/27323722-41/bear-christensen-florence-police-bears.html.csp

Man shoots bear with handgun and saves his dog's life during bear attack;

http://westhartford.patch.com/articles/man-shoots-at-bear-that-attacks-dog-at-west-hartford-reservoir

Police shoot 56 exotic predators including an attacking bear and big cats using service pistols and rifles:

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE79I0U720111020?irpc=932

Arizona man attacked in sleep by bear, bitten, mauled and dragged off. Camper stops bear with several shots from a 9mm:

http://waznmentobe.com/guns/armed-camper-thwarts-bear-attack.html



Everytime i see a bear thread people insist a handgun is useless. Well Google it.
I was looking for a story I saw in the news of police who tracked and killed a man-eating bear with their 9mm's. There are tons of news reports of people usong guns to stop bear attacks and they didn't need a Barrett .50 cal or shotgun slugs or even just a .44 mag.
I easily stumbled on all the recent stories above of people stopping and killing even a charging grizzly with a .45, a man who stopped a bear in mid-attack with his pistol, and an police officer who dropped a charging bear at 7 feet with one shot from a service revolver.

Some scarey comments from people in some of those links. People suggesting if the bear charges, it might be a bluff so you shouldn't do anything. :scared:

countrygun
09-05-2012, 13:59
Some scarey comments from people in some of those links. People suggesting if the bear charges, it might be a bluff so you shouldn't do anything. :scared:


But if you shoot him you will never know if he was bluffing. Do you want that on your conscience?

:whistling:

:faint:

Bilbo Bagins
09-05-2012, 14:00
Some scarey comments from people in some of those links. People suggesting if the bear charges, it might be a bluff so you shouldn't do anything. :scared:


Grizzlies do bluff charge. Sometimes you can tell and have the luxury of not shooting and pretending not to be a threat so the Bear can do its show and leave , but most likely you will have no idea or the time to figure out if its real or fake charge.

Black bears on the other hand, If they are coming at you, you need to nut up, get loud and get ready to fight. Most Black Bears are whimps and will take off once they realize your a PO'ed human, however sometimes because of food, cubs, or just because it has no fear of humans, they will not back down and they will come at you. In that case any gun, of any calibler will have to do and is better than nothing.

s&wfan
09-05-2012, 15:35
G20 with hot rounds if bear encounters are possible.

1300 Defender loaded with 3" slugs backed up by the G20 if bear encounters are likely.

Had someone mention that if you bounce a flare on the ground in front of the bear the smell of the burning flare would disorient the bear and allow you to escape. I carried 12 gauge flares for a while in the shell holder on my shotgun but decided against carrying them anymore due to fire danger.


Why would you.... wow.

I would guess the spray would be better. A big bear has up to a minute after he's mortally wounded to continue killing you. I would not want to fight an enraged grizzly for a minute.

The spray would run him off.

AK_Stick
09-05-2012, 16:01
Why would you.... wow.

I would guess the spray would be better. A big bear has up to a minute after he's mortally wounded to continue killing you. I would not want to fight an enraged grizzly for a minute.

The spray *might* run him off.


Bear spray, is not guaranteed to work. And its employment is highly dependent upon favorable environmental factors like wind, and rain, as well as foliage.


Its also known to attract bears after it dries. So if you get any on you......


Plus, like some people, some bears have shown that they don't particularly care about spray. If is repeated exposure to it, or just don't give a frick, I couldn't guess, but if you run across one of them with your spray, you're up **** creek without a paddle. Where as the pistol will ALWAYS do what the pistol does.

s&wfan
09-05-2012, 17:08
Bear spray, is not guaranteed to work. And its employment is highly dependent upon favorable environmental factors like wind, and rain, as well as foliage.


Its also known to attract bears after it dries. So if you get any on you......


Plus, like some people, some bears have shown that they don't particularly care about spray. If is repeated exposure to it, or just don't give a frick, I couldn't guess, but if you run across one of them with your spray, you're up **** creek without a paddle. Where as the pistol will ALWAYS do what the pistol does.

I would imagine you know a lot more about bears, being from Alaska and all. So I'm just going to nod out and defer to your hands on experience.

The only comment I want to make in bowing out is, I've seen the word "afield" used more in this topic than I have in all the other stuff I've read before in my life, and that makes me really happy.

thaddeus
09-06-2012, 04:25
Some scarey comments from people in some of those links. People suggesting if the bear charges, it might be a bluff so you shouldn't do anything. :scared:

I thought the one about the man saving his dog was funny, (in a "I hate bureaucrats" kind of way) that they mentioned he broke two park rules while deep in the woods:

1) the dog was off-leash when the incident occurred. "Rules and Regulations" for public use of the West Hartford Reservoirs and Reservoir #6 specifically state that "dogs must controlled and on a leash."

2) The regulations also specifically prohibit "carrying or discharging firearms or dangerous weapons."

Um.....yeah.

RICKSR
09-21-2012, 18:59
The Bigger the better. Some guides i know carry a Marlin in .444 Marlin Caliber with barrel cut to 18"s. Massive stopping power,just look at the spec's on it. Also .350 Marlin Caliber. Same set up. Massive striking power and hits hard as well. You do not fool around when it comes to the Big Bears. You maybe get one shot if any,you better make it a good one with plenty of power.

hogship
09-21-2012, 20:05
Ok, so from other threads I've learned that 32 ACP is just fine for bear defense...

but on a more serious note, given the choice of the two, if hiking in bear country, would you prefer an M1A or some kind of "tactical" shotgun (minimum 8+1) with slugs or similar? What would your ammo choice be, respective to your selection?

Or, do you think neither of these wouldn't be adequate with some of the larger varieties of bear?

After having done quite a bit of mountain hiking, my opinion is that neither the M1a, nor a shotgun would be my choice. They are just too big, bulky, and heavy.

Now, If I knew a bear encounter was going to happen, yeah.....I think I'd take the shotgun with slugs.

But, lets get real..........a pistol will allow you to enjoy the hike without wishing you didn't have to lug that big ol' long gun.

Give me a revolver in any number of potent calibers that will be adequate for the job. I have two......Smith 629, 44mag.....Ruger Vaquero, 45colt. Both loaded up with 300gr cast bullets.

ooc

Deaf Smith
09-21-2012, 20:08
A bear bluff? So, as Obama would say, "call his bluff".

I mean, if it's good enough for our clueless president, then it's good enough for us, right?

So if a bear charges, don't wait to see if it's a bluff. Let 'em have it!

Deaf

hogship
09-21-2012, 20:39
We've got Dept. of Fish, Wildlife, and Parks running radio spots claiming bear pepper spray is more effective than a firearm, and almost nobody has the experience to deal with a bear in a high intensity situation.

There are a lot of people around here who actually believe that liberal propaganda (even pro gun people who should know better).....think, man, think........there are those who would rather see you die, than to hear of you successfully defending yourself against their beloved (teddy) bears.

Now think of this for just one moment.......how many people are "experienced" in dealing with bears using a firearm anyway? Very damn few, I'd say. I'd also venture to say that the exact same reasoning can be applied to the bear spray.

As someone mentioned, wind, rain, foliage, etc can alter effectiveness of bear spray......and, NONE of these things will reduce the effectiveness of a bullet.

Someone also mentioned that a wounded bear can still kill. Yeah, that's true......but, a motivated bear can also kill after a dose of pepper spray. Anyone want to test that theory out?......(I didn't think so) Knowing the MSM, I'd say the news report is likely not to mention that the bear spray failed to prevent a mauling.......it simply would not be mentioned.

I'd much rather have the pepper spray on my belt, than nothing at all........but, I'm inclined to trust a bullet as the best overall option.

ooc

Haldor
09-21-2012, 21:03
Bear spray, is not guaranteed to work. And its employment is highly dependent upon favorable environmental factors like wind, and rain, as well as foliage.


Its also known to attract bears after it dries. So if you get any on you......


Plus, like some people, some bears have shown that they don't particularly care about spray. If is repeated exposure to it, or just don't give a frick, I couldn't guess, but if you run across one of them with your spray, you're up **** creek without a paddle. Where as the pistol will ALWAYS do what the pistol does.

I for one intend to use my Jedi powers to defeat the bear.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-gQrK_nH8L4o/UEnjh_imgyI/AAAAAAAAAnM/1OgOz6rpLXs/s1600/Tree-falling-bear-returned-to-the-wild-661CNULD-x-large.jpg

I wonder if the bears discuss self defense options against this guy?

http://yababoon.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/bear-man-600x350.jpg