Columbia, SC PD Goes from .45 to 9mm [Archive] - Glock Talk

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DonGlock26
08-25-2012, 20:58
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apBBXsVdbcY&feature=player_embedded#!




Columbia police to use Richland Co.-made guns
They will carry smaller weapons but will have more rounds to fire in a fight

Read more here: http://www.thestate.com/2012/07/11/2349221/columbia-police-to-use-guns-made.html#.UDmPlqDAFH0#storylink=cpy





:popcorn:

_

Kingarthurhk
08-25-2012, 21:13
That's too bad. I own 4 9mm's and one .45. If I had to choose purely on the round it would be the .45 all day every day.

Rev.357
08-25-2012, 21:39
Got a friend that works an FN in columbia. They just got a deal & jumped on it I would! That is alot of savings + they can get more range time cheeper. So they can bust them bad guys!

Merkavaboy
08-25-2012, 21:53
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apBBXsVdbcY&feature=player_embedded#!





:popcorn:

_

Good for them!

Brand new quality firearms at a great cost savings to the tax payers, higher capacity, smaller grip to suit everyone, less muzzle flip = improved accuracy and with proper selection of duty ammo in 9mm the terminal effects on BG's is just as effective as the .45 (or any other service caliber).

unit1069
08-25-2012, 22:44
It's gratifying to see a local tv channel avoiding politically-correct propaganda.

Bottom line; the Columbia PD went with 9mm because of capacity and cost. I won't disagree because 9mm does put felons down.

JEEPX
08-25-2012, 23:07
The 9mm will serve them well.

I personal prefer the 9mm for self defense /competition and have never liked the .45acp.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

JW1178
08-25-2012, 23:07
Well, I'm sure many factors went into the decision, but this thread is kind of saying they prefer the 9mm over the .45ACP. One main thing was to support a local company. More capacity was another, however they could have gotten G21SF's, also cost, Sig P220's are pricey. They just decided the overall package was worth it, and honestly, I would like to see our police using 100% made in USA guns, uniforms, and equipment.

simotek
08-25-2012, 23:14
It's gratifying to see a local tv channel avoiding politically-correct propaganda.

Bottom line; the Columbia PD went with 9mm because of capacity and cost. I won't disagree because 9mm does put felons down.

Agreed. Good reporting in that video.

MSgt Dotson
08-25-2012, 23:14
Just out of curiosity, anyone know which .45 ACP pistol is being replaced?

simotek
08-25-2012, 23:17
Just out of curiosity, anyone know which .45 ACP pistol is being replaced?

Sig P220 I think.

cowboy1964
08-25-2012, 23:21
The 45 was a Sig from what I read.

MSgt Dotson
08-25-2012, 23:29
I would say "Columbia-based business" did play a small part in the selection, although it is not as if an FNH plant, even if located in Columbia, is funneling it's money back into the state of SC.

That aside, I personally would have preferred to see them adopt the S&W M&P 45. :)

LASTRESORT20
08-25-2012, 23:44
Wise decision...."smart" move....But..Just in case...If they need "more" `Real" emergency fire power.... :supergrin: they can go to Big brother the 10mm:popcorn:

JEEPX
08-26-2012, 00:04
Wise decision...."smart" move....But..Just in case...If they need "more" `Real" emergency fire power.... :supergrin: they can go to Big brother the 10mm:popcorn:


The 10mm would cause a reaction that would melt the Ozone. :supergrin:

Kingarthurhk
08-26-2012, 00:17
It's gratifying to see a local tv channel avoiding politically-correct propaganda.

Bottom line; the Columbia PD went with 9mm because of capacity and cost. I won't disagree because 9mm does put felons down.

Not reliably. After the fiasco the FBI had with the 9mm, they now carry Glock 22 .40

cowboy1964
08-26-2012, 01:13
Not reliably. After the fiasco the FBI had with the 9mm, they now carry Glock 22 .40

They didn't have Gold Dots back in '86.

9mm +p+
08-26-2012, 02:13
Not reliably. After the fiasco the FBI had with the 9mm, they now carry Glock 22 .40

BS, this is 2012 not 1986, put that BS where it belongs.

NEOH212
08-26-2012, 03:00
The 10mm would cause a reaction that would melt the Ozone. :supergrin:

The Ozone heck!

It would split the planet in two! What we really need to fear is Iran getting a 10mm. Then we would really have something to worry about.

Too bad the Israelis didn't chamber the Desert Eagle in 10mm, they could have had a first strike capability...:whistling:


:rofl::rofl:

NEOH212
08-26-2012, 03:04
Cheaper?

Cheaper = .45 to 9mm + Less training = more capacity needed.

Ten bucks says they don't hit the range anymore with the 9's than they did with the .45 Sig's. :whistling:

Most of the cops I know around here shoot once or twice per year and that's when they qualify.

Good thing they have all those rounds now. They can shoot a bunch of bystanders along with the perp. :whistling:

The heck with marksmanship, I guess it's spray and pray....:whistling:

WinterWizard
08-26-2012, 03:50
and with proper selection of duty ammo in 9mm the terminal effects on BG's is just as effective as the .45 (or any other service caliber).

Why does everybody assume that the advancements in bullet technology only apply to 9mm? Guess what, bro - all those awesome hollow points they now have in 9mm they also have in .45 ACP. Sorry. :tongueout:

cheapshot
08-26-2012, 05:07
Why does everybody assume that the advancements in bullet technology only apply to 9mm? Guess what, bro - all those awesome hollow points they now have in 9mm they also have in .45 ACP. Sorry. :tongueout:Yuuuup.

Brucev
08-26-2012, 05:31
9mm is a fine choice. The pistol is merely o.k.

Kingarthurhk
08-26-2012, 08:23
BS, this is 2012 not 1986, put that BS where it belongs.

I have 9mm +p, however, can you name many, or any agencies, for that matter that would permit 9mm +p+ in their service issued hand guns? I can't. There is the rare 9mm+p, but that is like hen's teeth.

I just can't imagine what they would do with an armed and violent encounter with someone on PCP and a 9mm.

Don't get me wrong, they have higer magazine capacities, but there is a reason for that.

Also, I am not 9mm hater, I own 4 of them, 3 of those are Glocks, the other is a Berretta 92F. I just realize the limitations of every round I own. They are all tools in the tool box for different jobs.

Dogbite
08-26-2012, 09:03
I am sure its a cost based decision.

Mayhem like Me
08-26-2012, 09:25
Why does everybody assume that the advancements in bullet technology only apply to 9mm? Guess what, bro - all those awesome hollow points they now have in 9mm they also have in .45 ACP. Sorry. :tongueout:
But look at this energy is energy now 9millimeters are much more efficient at delivering all the energy on the target this was not always the case. In years past 9 millimeters either expanded and did the job or poor bullet construction allowed them to collapse on themselves not open up and zip right through. The 9 millimeter gained more from advances in technology than larger calibers .

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G26S239
08-26-2012, 10:26
I have an FNP 40 that preceded the pistols the Columbia cops have. It is a very nice gun. I can see why they like what they have. Not sure why they phased out the FNP.

WinterWizard
08-26-2012, 16:17
But look at this energy is energy now 9millimeters are much more efficient at delivering all the energy on the target this was not always the case. In years past 9 millimeters either expanded and did the job or poor bullet construction allowed them to collapse on themselves not open up and zip right through. The 9 millimeter gained more from advances in technology than larger calibers .

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Is that something you heard on the errorwebs? :rofl:

JW1178
08-26-2012, 16:32
Anyone notice how every time anything goes well for the 9mil the fanboys have to parade it?

Perhaps if everyone was smart like the 9mm fanboys everyone would switch. Lol

unit1069
08-26-2012, 16:47
Anyone notice how every time anything goes well for the 9mil the fanboys have to parade it?

Perhaps if everyone was smart like the 9mm fanboys everyone would switch. Lol

The 9mm isn't my favorite self-defense caliber but I understand why so many people like that caliber. I own two 9mm pistols and I'm convinced they are quite capable of performance in most self-defense situations.

I'm also sure that if you research the matter there are very prominent experts who normally carry a different caliber but have no qualms when selecting 9mm for some particular circumstances they may encounter. That in itself is sufficient endorsement for me.

dkf
08-26-2012, 17:17
If they do not like the 9mm cartridge they can switch back at one point. The 9mm is not my choice but neither is .45. If people are happy with either so be it. I can see the point about extra capacity and lower recoil however. Not all LE depts are made up of big burly men that are not recoil sensitive.

cowboy1964
08-26-2012, 18:05
Anyone notice how every time anything goes well for the 9mil the fanboys have to parade it?

Perhaps if everyone was smart like the 9mm fanboys everyone would switch. Lol

Anyone ever notice that 9mm haters like to ignore all the evidence that in modern loadings it is a very effective caliber? In addition to ignoring all the advantages it has over over calibers.

WinterWizard
08-26-2012, 19:36
Anyone ever notice that 9mm haters like to ignore all the evidence that in modern loadings it is a very effective caliber? In addition to ignoring all the advantages it has over over calibers.

I don't deny that it is a good caliber with modern loadings. But is it equal to .357 Sig, .357 Magnum, .40 S&W or .45 ACP? nope. The difference is small between the calibers, but it is there. Sorry, it just is. Anyone who thinks differently is simply fooling themselves or in denial.

paragon1
08-26-2012, 20:23
I don't deny that it is a good caliber with modern loadings. But is it equal to .357 Sig, .357 Magnum, .40 S&W or .45 ACP? nope. The difference is small between the calibers, but it is there. Sorry, it just is. Anyone who thinks differently is simply fooling themselves or in denial.

Do you have any data to prove this? Last I heard the wound paths in real shootings are impossible to differentiate between the major calibers in REAL shootings.

uz2bUSMC
08-26-2012, 20:30
I don't deny that it is a good caliber with modern loadings. But is it equal to .357 Sig, .357 Magnum, .40 S&W or .45 ACP? nope. The difference is small between the calibers, but it is there. Sorry, it just is. Anyone who thinks differently is simply fooling themselves or in denial.

As much as I don't like the 9mm, I would rather have it for SD purposes than the .45. Big doesn't mean better to me. The .45 is the fat unathletic kid on the block, .40 and .357 sig are athletes.

uz2bUSMC
08-26-2012, 20:38
Do you have any data to prove this? Last I heard the wound paths in real shootings are impossible to differentiate between the major calibers in REAL shootings.

By who, the ME? The ones who are determining the COD, not the terminal performance of said calibers? Or the trauma surgeons who have the time to analyze permanent crush cavities when they are saving lives? Didn't realize either of these professions had the luxury of having multiple examples laid out before them with identical shot placement, identical projectile construction and identical body types at the same time in different calibers for which to compare.

ithaca_deerslayer
08-26-2012, 20:41
I don't deny that it is a good caliber with modern loadings. But is it equal to .357 Sig, .357 Magnum, .40 S&W or .45 ACP? – nope. The difference is small between the calibers, but it is there. Sorry, it just is. Anyone who thinks differently is simply fooling themselves or in denial.

I like to fool myself into believing that any of those calibers are as good as .44 magnum, but they are not.

Nor are they as good as the .500. Heck, the semi-auto ones aren't even as good as 10mm.

Too many .40 and .45 fans are in denial.

:)

jbglock
08-26-2012, 20:54
The Chief in Columbia comes off as an idiot. Screw saving the taxpayer a dollar. They already do that by underpaying their officers. At least give them the tools they want. 15 year service cycle seems kind of silly so I'm sure many officers will love any new gun. That said I'm sure that many will hate going from 45acp to 9mm. You will not see them interviewed by the media though because that is a sure way to end your employment there (openly going against the Chief no matter how bad a decision he makes). I carry a Glock 17 as my duty weapon but only because that is what I'm issued and can occasionally get free ammo for it from my department. I love the gun but have no delusions about the effectiveness of 9mm even in a +P+ loading vs. standard pressure 45acp. I don't feel safer because I have 2 spare mags on my duty belt. When I used to carry just one I was happy. I carry 2 because I have to. So I carry over a box of ammo (18 in the gun + 17 per spare mag) yet would gladly trade it for a Glock 22 in 40 cal with only one spare mag or a Glock 21SF in 45acp with only one spare mag. That's because I see how ineffective 9mm is vs 40 or 45. Before you 9mm users get up in arms, I am NOT saying it is ineffective. It is ineffective in comparison. That is based on what I see happen when people get shot with various calibers. By the chiefs logic they would have been better off with Kel-Tec PMR 30's in 22 magnum for even more ammo capacity and even cheaper ammo costs. I'm not one to criticize any of you if you feel safe with a 9mm. I really do feel that hits with a less powerful round are 100 times better than misses a more powerful round. But any officer that can't handle the recoil from a 45acp in a full sized Glock probably isn't fit for duty any longer. That is the opinion of an officer who knows that fighting back to the shotgun or rifle in your trunk sounds good but isn't an option in a lot of common situations. What you walk in with in your holster may HAVE to solve the problem right then.

JW1178
08-26-2012, 22:49
The look on the cop's face holding the gun in the artical says it all.... "you took away my P220 and give me this POS, I hope I never have to use it"

I don't know much about the FN pistols but it's got quite a mountain to climb to compare to a Sig Sauer.

cowboy1964
08-26-2012, 22:51
That's because I see how ineffective 9mm is vs 40 or 45. then.

Could you explain how a 0.045" larger diameter bullet (the difference between 9mm and .40) moving 200 feet per second slower is so vastly superior? And are you saying that a .40 is equally as effective as a .45? A .45 has 25% more area than a .40. So clearly the .40 is not as effective.

cowboy1964
08-26-2012, 22:55
I don't deny that it is a good caliber with modern loadings. But is it equal to .357 Sig, .357 Magnum, .40 S&W or .45 ACP? – nope. The difference is small between the calibers, but it is there. Sorry, it just is. Anyone who thinks differently is simply fooling themselves or in denial.

So rank the calibers from best to last. Let me guess, you will do so strictly on diameter right? Is shootability, capacity, or any factor important? I'll ask again: why do the 9mm haters ignore the factors that don't fit into their bias?

What's the difference between .357 Sig/Magnum and 9mm? Only velocity. So obviously velocity matters. Except when it comes to 800 feet per second .45s. Then the .45 fanboys are quiet on the subject.

cowboy1964
08-26-2012, 23:04
More reality:

9mm 147 HST: 12.5" .69"
.40 165 HST: 12.5" .70"

Anyone that thinks there is going to be the slightest bit of difference in "stopping power" between those two rounds is fooling themselves.

uz2bUSMC
08-27-2012, 05:08
More reality:

9mm 147 HST: 12.5" .69"
.40 165 HST: 12.5" .70"

Anyone that thinks there is going to be the slightest bit of difference in "stopping power" between those two rounds is fooling themselves.

And anyone who thinks that the only thing to be considered for "stopping power" is penetration and expansion is fooling themselves.

WinterWizard
08-27-2012, 05:56
So rank the calibers from best to last. Let me guess, you will do so strictly on diameter right? Is shootability, capacity, or any factor important? I'll ask again: why do the 9mm haters ignore the factors that don't fit into their bias?

What's the difference between .357 Sig/Magnum and 9mm? Only velocity. So obviously velocity matters. Except when it comes to 800 feet per second .45s. Then the .45 fanboys are quiet on the subject.

Your assumption that I would rank them on size alone is a false one. I would rank them from from poorest to best: 9mm, .40 S&W and .357 Sig are about equal, and .357 Magnum and .45 acp are about equal. But like I said, the difference is small. If .357 Magnum and .45 acp are a 100 (on a theoretical scale of 1-100), the .40 S&W and .357 Sig are about a 98, and the 9mm is about a 95. I really would say there is only about a 5% difference between them all. And we're talking about ballistic performance on humans with hollow points here, not bears or windshields, etc...

Yes, velocity matters, but only when comparing identical projectiles (of which the 9mm, .357 Sig and .357 magnum are - basically a .355-.357" 124-125 gr. JHP). But when comparing projectiles of varying diameters and weights, that changes things. 9mm is not fast enough to give it an edge over the faster and/or heavier calibers. It makes a difference when you get up into the 1500 fps range, which 9mm falls at least 150 fps short of in 115 gr, and about 200-250 fps short of in 124 gr. Which is why, because these 3 are essentially the same bullet most of the time, the .357 Magnum is a little better than the .357 Sig which is a little better than 9mm. It's just a fact.

For example, a 230 gr +P .45 acp @950 fps is 22.4% slower than a 124 gr. +P 9mm @ 1225 fps. But the .45 is 46.1% heavier and has a 21% larger diameter.

I will say that there is enough of a difference in bullet design and weights for all calibers that is is possible to choose a poor bullet and become inferior to a lesser caliber. For example, I believe the lighter/faster loadings in .45 acp to be crappy, and I'd rather carry a 9mm or .40 S&W over a .45 acp in 165gr or 185 gr. Or simply older bullet designs that don't expand much and don't expand reliably. The expected standard is 2x expansion nowadays. If you pick something designed in 1985 that only expands about 1.5x (maybe) or not at all, then you are making a poor choice.

The caliber wars are really the bullet design wars.

But my opinion is that none of the common calibers have enough velocity to bump it into the elusive "hydrostatic shock" category (you need about 2000-2200 fps for that). That leaves penetration. Well, all hollow points are designed to penetrate 12-15", so that factor is moot. That leaves wound channel and expanded diameter. The faster .357 Sig and .357 Magnum expand violently, and the heavy/large .45 acp is starting with a large diameter to begin with and deflects less because it is nearly twice the weight (assuming a 230 gr. bullet). The .40 S&W splits the difference in both velocity and weight.

Plus, who is carrying a 4" or longer .357 Magnum? – (which is what is needed to get all the ballistic benefits of that caliber) I bet it is a very small percentage. Most carry snubbies, so that effectively neuters it down to 9mm ballistics, essentially.

I am surprised that there hasn't been a caliber between .40 S&W and .45 acp yet. I think a .42-.43 caliber bullet, say 210 grains @ about 1100-1150 fps could be king. .425 Glock (four twenty-five Glock) has a nice ring to it. Glock should have introduced this instead of the worthless .45 GAP, which was a solution to an nonexistent problem.

uz2bUSMC
08-27-2012, 06:13
The shock theory has nothing to do with 2000+ fps. That is the velocity in which fragments supposedly become useful as individual projectiles since they have the ability to travel a little ways.

Mayhem like Me
08-27-2012, 06:35
Is that something you heard on the errorwebs? :rofl:
No I've been privy to about 100 ballistic shoots in my career advancement in 9 millimeters has really stepped it up in the past 15 years. You sound like you're speaking from someone who reads a lot of books and doesn't do a lot of practical application


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RichardB
08-27-2012, 08:49
What was the Columbia PD's track record with the SIG 45?

Hits, misses, stops, failures to stop over how many years?

Which cartridge(s) did they use for above?

watsoncb
08-27-2012, 09:51
Look on the bright side.

There will be a bunch of P220 Sigs posted for sale soon for us to purchase.

JEEPX
08-27-2012, 15:07
The. 45acp is dismal at barrier penetration.
My company tested the. 45acp and 9mm against vehicles several deployment cycles ago. The. 45acp was defeated everytime by vehicle doors, fender wells etc. The 9mm tore right thru like it was going through butter.
My company only authorizes the 9mm for handguns.

glock20c10mm
08-27-2012, 15:30
Smart decision. I'ld choose 9 or 45 anyday, and twice on Sunday. But since I've chosen 10mm Auto over either, I have no reason to dwell on that sort of quibble.

glock20c10mm
08-27-2012, 15:56
If .357 Magnum and .45 acp are a 100 (on a theoretical scale of 1-100),...

Yes, velocity matters, but only when comparing identical projectiles...
You don't see a contradiction between those two statements?

How about this; The offspring of one 357 Magnum parent and one 45 Auto parent is 10mm Auto. 10mm auto is where your theoretical "100" should be.
I will say that there is enough of a difference in bullet design and weights for all calibers that is is possible to choose a poor bullet and become inferior to a lesser caliber.
:agree:
The caliber wars are really the bullet design wars.
Completely disagree. The caliber wars are actually cartridge wars. The bullet design wars are wars each cartridge has with itself, as bullet designs are made equally between all common calibers.
But my opinion is that none of the common calibers have enough velocity to bump it into the elusive "hydrostatic shock" category (you need about 2000-2200 fps for that).
uz2bUSMC already touched on this, and what he said is absolutely correct. The only place nonsense like; 2000 - 2200 fps is what's required for something as poorly and loosely termed as hydrostatic shock comes from is gun rags and the like, who have rights to as much nonsense as you'll find on the internet.

JW1178
08-27-2012, 16:11
The velocity doesn't have much to do with the wound but it has a lot to do with how the bullet performs.

Anyways, I find it a contradiction that 9mm fans will say the higher velocity of their 9mm is an advantage over the .45 but when the .357sig is brought up, it doesn't matter or the velocity is actually a disadvantage.

Like I said, the hydrostatic shock isnt really a factor, but having more energy behind the projectile is usually an advantage.

WinterWizard
08-27-2012, 17:17
The. 45acp is dismal at barrier penetration.
My company tested the. 45acp and 9mm against vehicles several deployment cycles ago. The. 45acp was defeated everytime by vehicle doors, fender wells etc. The 9mm tore right thru like it was going through butter.
My company only authorizes the 9mm for handguns.

Well, you are not the only one to test on cars. Box O' Truth tested 9mm, .40 and .45 on windshields and car doors. The results: The .45 deflected the least through a windshield and no caliber was stopped by a car door.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/buickot1.htm
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/buickot3.htm

And here is a video showing a .45 acp 165 gr. Pow'r Ball (which are known for poor penetration) ripping through the side panel of a pickup truck bed.

.45 Caliber "Cor-Bon Powerball" Through A Truck Bed! - YouTube

But I guess .45 acp will bounce off a cardboard box like everyone (9mm fans) says.

And by the by, not many citizens are going to be shooting through barriers. That is more of a consideration for military and law enforcement. I am not choosing my caliber based on if will shoot through car doors or windhshields. If I have to shoot into a car, that is likely not to be self defense. And If I am in my car, I will either floor it, using my car as a weapon or escape tool, or shoot through the window. Sorry, I don't have Rambo fantasies.

glock20c10mm
08-27-2012, 17:30
...but having more energy behind the projectile is usually an advantage.
I agree, but only if the bullet uses more energy inside the adversary. If the additional energy is epended on a tree behind the target, then I don't believe it helped.

Warp
08-27-2012, 17:42
Haters...fanboys...ffs guys, get over it. Pick one, use it, don't worry about what other people are doing.

uz2bUSMC
08-27-2012, 17:52
Well, you are not the only one to test on cars. Box O' Truth tested 9mm, .40 and .45 on windshields and car doors. The results: The .45 deflected the least through a windshield and no caliber was stopped by a car door.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/buickot1.htm
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/buickot3.htm

And here is a video showing a .45 acp 165 gr. Pow'r Ball (which are known for poor penetration) ripping through the side panel of a pickup truck bed.

.45 Caliber "Cor-Bon Powerball" Through A Truck Bed! - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tn9Wp_i6y48)

But I guess .45 acp will bounce off a cardboard box like everyone (9mm fans) says.

And by the by, not many citizens are going to be shooting through barriers. That is more of a consideration for military and law enforcement. I am not choosing my caliber based on if will shoot through car doors or windhshields. If I have to shoot into a car, that is likely not to be self defense. And If I am in my car, I will either floor it, using my car as a weapon or escape tool, or shoot through the window. Sorry, I don't have Rambo fantasies.

.45's deflect badly on sheet metal at an angle, not the case with faster, smaller diameter projectiles. The .45 also loses a lot of it's momentum through metal because of it's large frontal area leaving little to offer once it gets through.

uz2bUSMC
08-27-2012, 18:01
In this test it took hot loaded DT rounds to get anything done with the .45 (older and better DT). This test is a mess with apples to oranges but something to look at none-the-less.

http://intrencik.com/357sig.htm

glock20c10mm
08-27-2012, 19:00
Haters...fanboys...ffs guys, get over it. Pick one, use it, don't worry about what other people are doing.
Why don't we just get rid of caliber corner while we're at it?

See, your problem is you're hating the haters, making you a hater too. Maybe it would be better if you didn't worry about what other people are doing?

jbglock
08-27-2012, 19:03
Could you explain how a 0.045" larger diameter bullet (the difference between 9mm and .40) moving 200 feet per second slower is so vastly superior? And are you saying that a .40 is equally as effective as a .45? A .45 has 25% more area than a .40. So clearly the .40 is not as effective.

Can I explain how? Nope. I can explain what I see. 9mm Ranger T series +P+ strait on rottweiler skull. Failed to penetrate the skull. 45acp (don't recall the brand) lead round nose through the back of a leg and then a shin bone. .380 4 shots in the stomach, poor penetration and a man out of the hospital in a week. .40 time and time again a good bone breaker. Heavier bullets seem to be better stoppers and bone breakers. Say what you want but that is an important consideration to an leo. Some of us have to deal constantly with not only vicious humans but vicious dogs also. An leo friend of mine will have nasty scars the rest of his life on his right arm because of a pitbull ambushing him from bushes at what was once a local drug house. Point blank with T series again it took 7 rounds to put the dog down. Multiple failures to penetrate a skull. My logic is simple. I'd rather have fewer rounds but rounds that are more likely to get the job done if I do mine.

Warp
08-27-2012, 19:08
Why don't we just get rid of caliber corner while we're at it?

See, your problem is you're hating the haters, making you a hater too. Maybe it would be better if you didn't worry about what other people are doing?

We wouldn't want to get rid of caliber corner. All of this insult-laden bickering needs to be shoved into a corner somewhere

WinterWizard
08-27-2012, 19:38
.45's deflect badly on sheet metal at an angle, not the case with faster, smaller diameter projectiles. The .45 also loses a lot of it's momentum through metal because of it's large frontal area leaving little to offer once it gets through.

Cool, if I ever have to shoot (murder because I am not a cop) someone hiding behind sheet metal that is at an angle, I will be sure to stock up on 9mm +P+++++ Gold Talon HST's. But I will have to be careful of my background, because that round will go through 3 cars, a trailer home and have enough energy left over to go through a leather jacket and kill someone. :rofl:

Warp
08-27-2012, 19:51
Cool, if I ever have to shoot (murder because I am not a cop) someone hiding behind sheet metal that is at an angle, I will be sure to stock up on 9mm +P+++++ Gold Talon HST's. But I will have to be careful of my background, because that round will go through 3 cars, a trailer home and have enough energy left over to go through a leather jacket and kill someone. :rofl:

False premise.

JEEPX
08-27-2012, 20:07
Well, you are not the only one to test on cars. Box O' Truth tested 9mm, .40 and .45 on windshields and car doors. The results: The .45 deflected the least through a windshield and no caliber was stopped by a car door.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/buickot1.htm
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/buickot3.htm

And here is a video showing a .45 acp 165 gr. Pow'r Ball (which are known for poor penetration) ripping through the side panel of a pickup truck bed.

.45 Caliber "Cor-Bon Powerball" Through A Truck Bed! - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tn9Wp_i6y48)

But I guess .45 acp will bounce off a cardboard box like everyone (9mm fans) says.

And by the by, not many citizens are going to be shooting through barriers. That is more of a consideration for military and law enforcement. I am not choosing my caliber based on if will shoot through car doors or windhshields. If I have to shoot into a car, that is likely not to be self defense. And If I am in my car, I will either floor it, using my car as a weapon or escape tool, or shoot through the window. Sorry, I don't have Rambo fantasies.


For some reason you are extremely butt hurt that not everyone is in love with the .45acp.

As far as your comments are concerned.

Barrier penetration IS a important consideration in my job. This is why both rifles and pistols are tested.
I will judge from what I have seen with my own eyes. NOT from an internet video.

Take a chill pill

attrapereves
08-27-2012, 20:36
FN probably gave them a deal they couldn't refuse. S&W often buys Glocks in such a way that each M&P only costs $200 or less.

PDs care more about numbers than anything.

Tarowah
08-27-2012, 21:14
I did not read the story so forgive me if this has been answered, any word on what 9mm round they will carry?

glock20c10mm
08-27-2012, 22:36
We wouldn't want to get rid of caliber corner. All of this insult-laden bickering needs to be shoved into a corner somewhere
I see your point. By the same token there isn't much hope that it could or would ever change.

I think the passion behind some of the opinions isn't necessarily a bad thing as long as it is within reason. There's probably really no way around it except for all to agree with everyone. And since there's no chance of that happening.......maybe some bickering without name calling is satisfactory. Oh well, what do we expect, it's the internet.:supergrin:

WinterWizard
08-27-2012, 23:28
For some reason you are extremely butt hurt that not everyone is in love with the .45acp.

As far as your comments are concerned.

Barrier penetration IS a important consideration in my job. This is why both rifles and pistols are tested.
I will judge from what I have seen with my own eyes. NOT from an internet video.

Take a chill pill

Ditto. I am sorry you are so butt hurt that not everyone loves 9mm. Don't get me wrong, it's a great plinking round...

I've already stated that for cops, barrier penetration is an issue. For the other 99% of us, it's a non-issue.

uz2bUSMC
08-28-2012, 09:20
Ditto. I am sorry you are so butt hurt that not everyone loves 9mm. Don't get me wrong, it's a great plinking round...

I've already stated that for cops, barrier penetration is an issue. For the other 99% of us, it's a non-issue.

If you think barrier penetration isn't an issue for civilians you're fooling youself. Only in your perfect world should you think the only barrier you'll have to defeat is a window. Here's a tip - the bag guys don't play by your fairy tale rules.

Yankee2718
08-28-2012, 09:34
I would not be butt hurt if I was told to trade in my G22 for a G17 or FNS9 or M&P9.

JEEPX
08-28-2012, 12:00
Ditto. I am sorry you are so butt hurt that not everyone loves 9mm. Don't get me wrong, it's a great plinking round...

I've already stated that for cops, barrier penetration is an issue. For the other 99% of us, it's a non-issue.


Not at all. I'm not the one getting emotional. I simply stated that the 9mm performed better at barrier penetration in our testing.
I have used the 9mm in real life, and have seen others deploy it. This is were my faith in it comes from.
I have nothing against the. 45acp. It just doesn't make my personal top five.

cowboy1964
08-28-2012, 12:23
9mm does just fine with barriers. .357 Sig trumps them all.

http://le.atk.com/pdf/GoldDotPoster.pdf

fastbolt
08-28-2012, 12:36
I lost interest in doing more than skimming some posts in this thread. Same old proselytizing and caliber pontificating.

Having worked in the LE field as both cop & firearms instructor, I lost interest in "caliber debates" a while ago.

They all work. They're all relatively low-powered.

Not all shooters (and caliber loyalists, fans, enthusiasts, etc) may be as consistently capable, though.

I'd not be surprised that the agency named at the beginning of this thread got a great deal to make the switch. So what?

I'd not be surprised if going to a duty pistol with a grip frame based on the small 9mm cartridge isn't going to be helpful when it comes to disparate impact considerations for equipping the agency. Ditto adopting a cartridge with the recoil management advantages of the 9mm versus the .45 ACP. Another couple of "non-surprises", right?

I started my career carrying .357 Magnum revolvers on & off-duty, and a .45 Commander off-duty. In my own youthful exuberance I felt those were the "only" calibers worth considering.

Over the years I carried issued 9's, .40's & .45's, and found myself carrying snub .38's and 9's off-duty more than my .40's & .45's (and my .357's were retired for .38 +P's some years ago).

I finished my career carrying an issued 7+1 .45 pistol, but only because another cop wanted the .40 S&W compact I was using at one point (and our inventory of the then-new duty weapons was in-between shipments), so I turned mine in so he could check it out (and I took his .45).

However, I'd have been perfectly content to have finished my career carrying a compact 9 I'd been issued for several years.

I'll remain a collector & user of .45 pistols (I have 9 of them at present, and am considering buying another 1 or 2) ... but I'll be ordering a Shield 9 in the near future, and I'm sure it'll see a lot more daily carry than any of my .45's. My assortment of smallish 9's & .40's see more daily carry use than my larger .45's, too (and I have a CS45, 4513TSW & Colt OM, so it's not like I don't have smaller .45's ;) ).

I practice & train with all my handguns, regardless of caliber. I don't expect more out of them due to caliber, as long as they're chambered in one of the commonly used service-calibers.

Suit yourselves. It's a handgun ...

Most of the time when I hear someone wanting to debate the "effectiveness" of their issued weapon or an approved off-duty/secondary weapon, I consider their demonstrated proficiency for training and/or quals ... and usually suggest that maybe their attention might be better focused on actually being able to better use whatever caliber/weapon combination they have on their hip at the moment ... :whistling:

390ish
08-28-2012, 13:37
I hope all the 220s they are replacing end up at Summit Gun Broker for cheeeeep!