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9mmParabellum
08-26-2012, 12:37
Hello,
GT members, I just read the thread "why no love for the 9mm". I want to say this debate will go on long after we close our eyes for the last time. Now I want to ask this question of you all. How many here have fired on someone with a 9mm,.40cal and .45acp and had better results from each shooting to say one was better than the other?

Or you did it with your choosen caliber and it did its job and you are still here to share your experince?

Bigger bullets will track better in the body than smaller ones. 9mm will hit bone and stop, shatter it or deflect .40, .45acp will break it or go straight though. Does that mean bigger is better?

A cool calm person with the intent to kill with a .22 will be a panicky unskilled man with a .45acp!

I know of a guy I would like to train with and he carries a .32acp I cannot recall the weapon system I do not know if he has ever fired on someone with it, but he has pulled it out. I do know he has a solid shooting history an I feel he could make that .32acp work for him.

Ok, this is mine persoanl experince. With a pistol (9mm) rounds were Federal 115gr +P+ (9BPLE) and 124gr +P+ Hydro Shok, Winchestar 115gr +P+ the most rounds on target 9 hits. I have often wondered if I had a caliber beggining with a 4 would they have stopped sooner? Yes, however the 9mm did what I needed it to do it kept me alive here to share this with you, and I believe that is all that matters.

With the revolver (.38spl) Winchestar 125gr Silver Tip, I hit the guy once with a torso shot and he just stood there with knife in hand and when I hit him again he said I don't believe a cop shot me and he hit the deck. What did I fail to do? Follow through on the target. Follow through is very critical in a shooting prepare to hit your target several times. People come in different shapes and sizes and have different thesholds of pain.



I feel that for the law abiding citizen that goes about their daily business who is moderately trained goes to the range once a month trains once a year the 9mm will be just fine. I would not carry a .38spl as a primary not now a days but for those who have a lot of trigger time in this weapon system and can load it fast under stress thats a good thing its just not me. Bang bang sounds better than please don't hurt me or depending on the situation I am going to call the police.


I do not want to get into another shooting and if I do I could only tell you how a 9mm now with Speer GD would do for me. We all have the killer instinct the right button has to be pushed to unleash the killer within. I can tell you for me it was why did this MF make me shoot him and from pulling the trigger so many times out of being scared crap less.


I put this out here so I have to deal with what people may say but understand I am not trying to disrespect anyone and you carry the caliber of your choice when it goes down it will be more than caliber that is going to save your rear you will have to hit what you are shooting at to solve your immendiate problem I do not give a screw what caliber it is and you must be willing to use violence without hesitation.

Every body be safe.

cowboy1964
08-26-2012, 13:33
Bigger bullets will track better in the body than smaller ones. 9mm will hit bone and stop, shatter it or deflect .40, .45acp will break it or go straight though.

Actually no. It is more complicated than just diameter. Sectional density, velocity, even bullet construction. .357 Magnum is a very good stopper.

If it were all about surface area a .45 has 25% more area than a .40.

9mmParabellum
08-26-2012, 13:41
Actually no. It is more complicated than just diameter. Sectional density, velocity, even bullet construction. .357 Magnum is a very good stopper.

If it were all about surface area a .45 has 25% more area than a .40.

Understood I have never been into ballistics I really only know what I have heard. I talked with a M.E. and he told me that with the 115gr 9mm in +P+ he noticed brain hemorrhaging and hydro static shock to the body than those hit with heavier 9mm or non +P type and that the sudden stop of the round caused this even though there was not a lot of penetration.

GlockWheeler
08-28-2012, 14:39
I'll bite. Mine occurred in 1994. Long story short, I was flagged down off duty to assist my Chief who was handling a domestic violence call (he had been calling for a cover unit for 30 minutes prior to me driving by). I had been off sick with dual ear infections and bronchitis. Suspect gained control of a vehicle and I was the lucky target who ended up being struck by his vehicle three times and being dragged across two parking lots.

My Chief was carrying a Glock 17 loaded with Winchester 147 grain Black Talon ammunition. He fired 10 or 11 shots at the suspect. He had three front windshield hits and a number of rounds striking just below the driver side windshield, all rounds deflected off the glass and none made it through on all of the frontal hits. He managed to get a side shot through the open driver side door window, which struck the suspect in the bicep, traveling through his arm side to side.

The unexpanded Black Talon round hit the passenger side door, bounced off and was recovered from the passenger side floor board and it looked as though it had not even been fired from a gun. In the end, I was permanently disabled for life and the suspect is serving a 35 year sentence. Moral of the story? Don't bring a Glock 17 loaded with 147 grain Black Talon to a car fight.

I can say that out of three LE shootings in my area where 9mm was used (147 grain Black Talon and 147 grain Federal Hydra Shok, all rounds fired failed to penetrate vehicles and or cause serious injury to any suspects. In the recent past, with four LE shootings where 40S&W was used (165 grain Winchester Ranger T, 155 Grain Gold Dot and 180 Grain Gold Dot), all suspects are experiencing whatever awaits us on the other side of life.

Who knows, if the older shootings had occurred with modern bullets and or hot +P or +P+ ammunition, the end results may very well have been different. If I were using a 9mm today, I would want a bonded, middle weight bullet traveling as fast as I could get it to go. Ideally, I would take a hot 10mm or 357 Sig loaded with a bonded bullet over anything in 9mm.

9mm +p+
08-28-2012, 15:21
I too have seen 147's fail miserably time and again, as for a 40 or 45 breaking bone. I've also seen 45 230 ball flatten out on a shoulder blade not even breaking the bone? Bullets do weird stuff in flesh, none are guaranteed to expand or even penetrate bone. Shoot the threat to the ground, period. One shot stops happen but not all that often, even with shotguns and rifles, don't bank on getting one of them.

FFR Spyder GT
08-28-2012, 15:38
I've had similar luck with 9mm BT and other 147gr 9mm loads.

I was working a protection detail overseas in '93 and was armed with a Ruger P85 MKII pistol ( what I was issued) and Win 147gr BT ammo.

Car entered our "Secured Zone" and when he failed to stop I fired a total of 13rds into his car, a late 80's Nissan, and none of rounds stopped the car or driver. Finally another team member lite him up with a CAR-16 and stopped the vehicle without injuring the driver.

None of my rounds penetrated the windshield, or any engine parts. Most just barely penetrated the car's sheet metal.

That's the last time I ever used a 9mm until last year when I started carrying PF-9 when I couldn't carry a real gun.

From my personal experiences 9mms suck.

packinaglock
08-28-2012, 16:00
This thread has "very interesting" written all over it! :cool:

uz2bUSMC
08-28-2012, 16:22
It's interesting to me that many 9mm fans will argue it up and down because they do so well with it at the range. People that have had to rely upon it and had to actually shoot something other than paper don't seem to mind the idea of something more potent. Intersting.

Tiro Fijo
08-28-2012, 19:40
...People that have had to rely upon it and had to actually shoot something other than paper don't seem to mind the idea of something more potent. Intersting.


My experiences are exactly the opposite, barring the usage of the 147 gr. from the 1980's such as the lousy Win. load. Some people don't quit easily no matter what they are shot with, e.g., a few years back a bad hombre had to be shot at least five times with .357 SIG rounds in El Paso. I'd hardly call the .357 SIG round "impotent". Life isn't like Hollywood nor ballistic gel for that matter.

JW1178
08-28-2012, 21:11
Fortunately I have never had to actually shoot someone, but even after the USMC I knew the weapon, but bullets, were for the most part, bullets. Our training was all about knowing our weapon and how to use it, and getting that bullet on the target. The actual bullets, well, a few were heavier than others, which made a slight difference in long range shots, but not much else. As far as handguns, well, that's what an officer carried and if we carried it, well, it was a last resort weapon. Only one load for that, the 124 NATO FMJ. All our rounds were FMJ, not much selection there.

Then I come to the world of CCW and and self defense, where the handgun is the primary weapon, hollow points are allowed and there is a wide range of ammo choices. Well, at first I listened to what the salesman told me, then started believing labels, then started coming on gun forums and started listening to people. You hear so much from so many people. So, started doing research, and it's not that easy because there are so many opinions that are presented as facts that finding the actual facts is a needle in the haystack.

What I LEARNED is that there is no "magic bullet" out there, but some are better than others. Every situation is different, and anything can happen. So, you just try to cover all bases the best you can and it all goes back to what I originally LEARNED from those who fight for living using their weapons, and that is to KNOW YOUR WEAPON, HOW TO USE IT, AND BE GOOD AT PUTTING THE BULLET WHERE YOU WANT IT". Must aim better than my enemy and be faster than he is.

My research on the 9mm concludes this, the 9mm will get the job done, but just all too often it fails more than the larger calibers, but the larger calibers fail too. In a life or death fight, every shot counts and seconds are like hours. I have a G19 and carry it sometimes, perfer my G27, not really because of the bullet, but because the G27 is like the back of my hand, but slaps harder.

JW1178
08-28-2012, 21:14
It's interesting to me that many 9mm fans will argue it up and down because they do so well with it at the range. People that have had to rely upon it and had to actually shoot something other than paper don't seem to mind the idea of something more potent. Intersting.

Shooting at the range is like punching a punching bag thinking that's teaching you how to fight. NOPE.

Also, take the time to get a proper hold, stand correctly, line up your sights, pull the trigger, and then re-aim... seems that most gunfights don't happen anything like that.

unit1069
08-28-2012, 21:15
What I've gained from reading this thread is that the Black Talon might have had some hype but for an effective fight stopper it left a lot to be desired.

JW1178
08-28-2012, 21:17
What I've gained from reading this thread is that the Black Talon might have had some hype but for an effective fight stopper it left a lot to be desired.

I hope if some thug ever shoots me, he's using those, not only because I'll most likely survive it, but it will increase my street cred. :rofl:

cowboywannabe
08-28-2012, 23:31
ive seen more people shot with 9mm or less bullets than 9mm and bigger. ive seen more 9mm and bigger rounds kill than 9mm and less rounds kill. but......shot placement was always the deciding factor.

GlockWheeler
08-29-2012, 10:07
What I've gained from reading this thread is that the Black Talon might have had some hype but for an effective fight stopper it left a lot to be desired.

In the early 90's the Black Talon did have a lot of hype, and in all honesty, at that time it truly was fairly radical in handgun bullet design (compared to standard JHP or even the Hydra Shok and the Gold Dot did not yet exist). In my experience, the bullet itself was better than the other common bullets of that time, it just didn't have enough horsepower to punch through hard barriers. The fact that it was more or less spent after traveling through a suspect's bicep (through an open window) to simply bounce off the interior door and land in the floor was pathetic. The 147 grain load basically turned a hi-cap 9mm into nothing more than a hi-cap .38 special in overall performance. For LE use (and even self defense), if your load will not penetrate glass and other barriers the bad guy doesn't have much to worry about in that given situation. I would much rather have a more potent load, or even caliber handgun, if given the choice. I am not bagging on the 9mm as a cartridge and would not feel necessarily outgunned by carrying one, as long as I get to choose which load is being fired through it.

English
08-29-2012, 10:53
Actually no. It is more complicated than just diameter. Sectional density, velocity, even bullet construction. .357 Magnum is a very good stopper.

If it were all about surface area a .45 has 25% more area than a .40.

Actually 32%.

English

janice6
08-29-2012, 11:04
Choice made by reading forensics on .357 Magnum. Backup, .40 cal..

JW1178
08-29-2012, 11:48
Anyone who has been in any kind of "gun fight" whether it's airsoft guns, paintball, or even a watergun or jacking around with a kid's toy gun that shoots projectiles knows that you don't "aim" you basically point and shoot. You learn how it shoots and then your memory knows how it's going to hit. People talk about "accurate follow up shots" and such, that's BS because in a life or death gunfight you're going to pull your weapon and as soon as you can get that barrel in the direction of your advasary you're going to be sending those bullets to him. Anyone who thinks they are going to be able to get in the stance, aim, fire, aim, fire has lost. Even when you look at the fastest IPDA shoots, they step forward into the range, position, aim, then fire, this takes a second or two for even the fastest, and well, in real life, he who hesitates has lost because a SD shooting usually only lasts a few seconds, and the BG has probably made the first move so you would be screwed if you try to take your time to be accurate.


I once had a .357mag snub nose Rossi Revolver. I couldn't effectively pull, point, fire, and repeat well because of the long heavy trigger pull, rather slippery rounded grip along with a high bore axis made it so that unless you had a certain grip on the gun it tried to flip up so the grip wouldn't be right. The recoil wasn't all that consistant either, depending on how you had it held, it would recoil to the left or right as well as up. I could draw and fire accurately with my G27 probably three times faster. The G27 is snappy, but predictable and I've gotten so I can shoot it very fast and very accurately in those situations.

Anyone that's been in a street fight knows how it is, and just imagine that with a gun involved. Compare that to Karate Class, that's the difference between range shooting and the real world.

I'm only 5'5" and about 140lbs, probably a bit stronger than I look to say the least, and I've always known how to put my hands together and fight like hell. Bully types have always targeted me, and somehow I have been in many fights, never had my butt beat, and put some rather large guys on their backs. Not sure if I could have taken them in a MMA ring, but in the world I think part of what got them was the surprise factor. I inherited from my biological mother the ability to go from very nice and passive to very agressive and violent in about a 1/10 of a second. The mental game is part of it. If they think you are weak, or are confident you won't do anything, they drop their guard, and that's when you strike. However, now, I am much more outspoken and once I see a threat, I call it how I see it and let them know I'm not someone they want to mess with.

One more thing, aiming through your sights will put you in tunnel vision. Don't want to do that, because the BG's buddy might be close by. You are in the "wrong neighborhood" someone might jump in for the BG just because you are the outsider. Often, you can count on the BG having a buddy.

hotpig
08-29-2012, 12:22
It's interesting to me that many 9mm fans will argue it up and down because they do so well with it at the range. People that have had to rely upon it and had to actually shoot something other than paper don't seem to mind the idea of something more potent. Intersting.

9mm shooting that I have been to were pretty good. On the other hand I have seen several DRT with 38,32 and .22. What a bullet hits when it enters the body is the deciding factor. Not the caliber. The streets of Chicago and LA are littered with dead bodies from 9mm almost every day. To suggest that it is anything less than a man killer is simply silly.

Using examples of ammo that has not been made in over a decade and a half does not add any credibility to your argument. Bullet technology has gone a long was since the 1980's and 90's.

That said I do prefer a 1911 primarily because I shoot better with it. I have as much confidence in a well placed 147gr 9mm than I do with a Ranger 230gr.

GlockWheeler
08-29-2012, 13:03
9mm shooting that I have been to were pretty good. On the other hand I have seen several DRT with 38,32 and .22. What a bullet hits when it enters the body is the deciding factor. Not the caliber. The streets of Chicago and LA are littered with dead bodies from 9mm almost every day. To suggest that it is anything less than a man killer is simply silly.

Using examples of ammo that has not been made in over a decade and a half does not add any credibility to your argument. Bullet technology has gone a long was since the 1980's and 90's.

That said I do prefer a 1911 primarily because I shoot better with it. I have as much confidence in a well placed 147gr 9mm than I do with a Ranger 230gr.

I agree, for the most part. As long as any bullet makes it to a vital area, the differences between calibers would likely be moot. An officer I worked with was involved in a shooting a little over three years ago and was carrying his issued Glock 17 loaded with Winchester Ranger T 127 grain +P+. The person he had stopped tried ramming him in reverse with an old Chevy pickup as he was exiting his vehicle (actually missed him and backed into and over the front of his patrol vehicle). The officer fired the majority of a 17 rd mag into the back of the truck and the driver took off and eventually led officers into a 15 mile pursuit. They tac stripped the pickup and the driver gave up at that point (he did survive the shooting). I believe he was hit in the back by three or four rounds. The officer was telling me he had no faith in the 9mm after the event, but the rounds he was carrying actually went through the back of the cab and the seat before entering the suspect's back. Those rounds simply either did not hit vital areas or did not penetrate deep enough after passing through the cab and seat. (edit, my bad, the suspect did not live, he shot himself at the end of the pursuit:outtahere:)

gatorboy
08-29-2012, 13:25
Hello,
GT members, I just read the thread "why no love for the 9mm". I want to say this debate will go on long after we close our eyes for the last time. Now I want to ask this question of you all. How many here have fired on someone with a 9mm,.40cal and .45acp and had better results from each shooting to say one was better than the other?

Or you did it with your choosen caliber and it did its job and you are still here to share your experince?

Bigger bullets will track better in the body than smaller ones. 9mm will hit bone and stop, shatter it or deflect .40, .45acp will break it or go straight though. Does that mean bigger is better?.......................................................................

Every body be safe.

Jeez, thanks for the novel man! :tongueout:

Seriously, not trying to be a jerk, but damn! The only folks I see concerned with power, diameter, speed, etc. are guys who carry 9mm. There are chest thumpers, trolls and others that try to convince others "theirs" is the best. I'm not one of them. Hell, I would'nt mind being the only person on earth armed with what I think works best. I share information for those that don't have it yet. A 9mm will kill dead, just like every other cartridge out there. It's a beat horse but: shoot/carry what you want first, if that fails miserably, shoot/carry what you shoot best. Cost of ammo/pistol is no excuse to carry any cartridge/pistol YOU don't feel will do the job in YOUR hands if you even get the chance to defend yourself against a predatory, drug addicted animal. I choose not to go with the 9x19 cartridge even if I do choose a .355 caliber. More reasons than bullet weight, velocity, price of ammuntion/reloading or capacity. Be safe.

gatorboy
08-29-2012, 13:35
If it were all about surface area a .45 has 25% more area than a .40.

Actually 32%.
English

WAY less than that when comparing meplats. Which is why I prefer truncated to "ball" 100% of the time. More damage going in and a good headstart on expansion and/or bone breaking potential not to mention less chance of deflection. Beartooth .401's will make bigger holes than truncated .451 FMJ's. Front, through and back. They also take a lot more with them on the way out.

hotpig
08-29-2012, 14:05
Most of us who subscribe to police one and officer.com see a lot of footage of LE shootings.

Invaluable tool is you-tube. The attempted robbery videos of stores and shops. You will see the most common pattern is he who fires first often wins. Caliber is irrelevant.Even if a hit is not scored. Scoring a hit almost always guarantees a win.

I say a win for the record is the hostilities stops by the bad guy surrendering, running away, or dying.

Also keep in mind multiple rounds are shot at arms length or just a little further and most end up as misses.

GlockWheeler
08-29-2012, 14:52
Harlem Nights (5/8) Movie CLIP - Shooting Up Quick (1989) HD - YouTube

uz2bUSMC
08-29-2012, 16:04
9mm shooting that I have been to were pretty good. On the other hand I have seen several DRT with 38,32 and .22. What a bullet hits when it enters the body is the deciding factor. Not the caliber. The streets of Chicago and LA are littered with dead bodies from 9mm almost every day. To suggest that it is anything less than a man killer is simply silly.

First, killing is different than stopping. I didn't say it was not capable of killing. Lot's of things have that capability. It's useless to me if some one eventually dies later from from a few rounds I put into them but still had the opportunity to shoot me in return because he/she did not stop. Contending that something that is a man killer is good enough is what could be considered silly. Second, what the round hits is not the deciding factor -the amount of damage to the vitals is. If you don't score a CNS hit and your assailant doesn't stop from any of the possible variables that contribute to stopping, you're left only with blood loss. This eventual incapacitation (from a vital hit) will happen faster if there is more damage. The easy comparison being a shot to the heart from a .22 versus the 9mm. Or... a 9mm fmj flavor versus one that expanded to, say, .70". It is not that the damage simply has to happen. It needs to cause bleeding and allow room for that bleeding to happen rapidly.

Using examples of ammo that has not been made in over a decade and a half does not add any credibility to your argument. Bullet technology has gone a long was since the 1980's and 90's.

Hmmm, and yet Facklorites repeatedly quote research done by the IWBA more than 20 years ago. But you're right, technology has advanced a great deal... the public has now seen that the light and fast bullets such as the 115 +p+ actually do work. Guess all that 147grn's being the cat's meow isn't really holding up. Thing about bullet technology is that if you are firing a heavy for caliber round that is anemic, it still may not get through the barrier you desperately need it to penetrate to stop whatever your problem happens to be.

That said I do prefer a 1911 primarily because I shoot better with it. I have as much confidence in a well placed 147gr 9mm than I do with a Ranger 230gr.

Would I carry a 9mm? Yes. Have I? Yes. Do I feel under gunned when I do? Well, that's complicated. What does it mean when you feel like you are going to have to shoot a lot if you should need it?

There's more I could say but I'll leave it at -your turn.

9mmParabellum
08-29-2012, 16:58
It's interesting to me that many 9mm fans will argue it up and down because they do so well with it at the range. People that have had to rely upon it and had to actually shoot something other than paper don't seem to mind the idea of something more potent. Intersting.

I believe that the 9mm is load dependent if I had to carry ball ammo again I would want a .45acp but if I could carry a premium hollow point I would take a 9mm.

Snowman92D
08-29-2012, 17:16
Mine occurred in 1994. Long story short, I was flagged down off duty to assist my Chief who was handling a domestic violence call. Suspect gained control of a vehicle and I was the lucky target who ended up being struck by his vehicle three times and being dragged across two parking lots.

In the end, I was permanently disabled for life and the suspect is serving a 35 year sentence. Moral of the story? Don't bring a Glock 17 loaded with 147 grain Black Talon to a car fight.

If I were using a 9mm today, I would want a bonded, middle weight bullet traveling as fast as I could get it to go. Ideally, I would take a hot 10mm or 357 Sig loaded with a bonded bullet over anything in 9mm.

Thank you for your service and, as the Israelis say, "Kol ha kavod, Gever", ("All my respect to you, Mister".) I certainly hope you've recovered well enough to have an active, enjoyable life.

Handguns are never a good choice for fighting in or around vehicles, but you often have to make do with whatever you have. Some calibers and loads don't do so well. Others do...like the hardened Gold Dot .357 Sig ammo Texas DPS uses, or the 10mm used for so long by the Kentucky State Police. The mid-weight bonded 9mm's, driven to +P or +P+ velocity have been doing well in a lot of vehicle-involved shootings. If your agency has a history of, or a likelihood for, a lot of vehicle-involved shootings, you might want to carefully consider your choices.

Thanks for sharing your story with us.

Snowman92D
08-29-2012, 17:18
Anyone who has been in any kind of "gun fight" whether it's airsoft guns, paintball, or even a watergun...knows that you don't "aim" you basically point and shoot. ......you would be screwed if you try to take your time to be accurate.

Well, you poor man...who in the hell have you been talking to?

Kingarthurhk
08-29-2012, 17:58
Sometimes you don't have a choice on what you can pack everyday. You just do the best you can with what you have. There is a reason G17's have 17 round magazines. More, if you add extensions. The rounds are small and typically you need a lot of them.