PPQ (and others) muzzle flip. [Archive] - Glock Talk

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cfr
08-27-2012, 09:23
MY DISCLAIMER: This thread is not meant to bait/ hook anyone into a debate. I doubt the answers here will sway my feelings on the PPQ, and this thread is purely for my knowledge, and to satisfy curiosity.

With that out of the way...

Greetings. I purchased a 9mm PPQ sometime back and really like it. I’ve seena few on this board and others say that they either had one previously, or simply shot one, but were turned off by the high bore axis, and how much longer it took to get back on target than their trusted Glocks. One person even referenced that this was clarified mainly on the shot timer.

That said, can anyone from this crew list an example of time differences, in layman’s terms for those of us that don’t shoot competitively?

Something like "Glock 5 rounds in 5 seconds, PPQ 4 rounds in 5seconds" would be ideal. Also, if you've experienced the same issue with another high bore axis gun (XD/ M, Sigs, etc.) feel free to share your experience on that as well.

Thanks!

fastbolt
08-27-2012, 10:32
You have to take several factors into consideration, not the least of which are the grip angle (how little or much the grip design requires the shooter to angle their wrists forward) ... the shooter's actual stance & balance (shoulders upright or leaning slightly backward, and/or their head tipping backward while shooting) ... and the ammunition (caliber).

Go try whatever pistol or pistols interest you. Compare them for yourself. Your level of training, currently maintained skillset and general shooting experience will undoubtedly influence your opinion.

Then, do it again on another day (don't be surprised if your perspective changes from one day to the next).

Suit yourself.

There are folks who seem to equate "different" with "worse" regarding the design differences between any number of the more commonly used service-type pistols.

Proper training can mitigate a number of perceived "design inadequacies", though. ;)

cowboy1964
08-27-2012, 10:33
My guess is no one has actual hard data. You'll get just a bunch of inane responses about girly men that can't handle recoil.

If someone can only shoot 4 rounds in 5 seconds because of 9mm muzzle flip I guarantee they have grip and stance issues. Now if we're talking about 4 or 5 rounds PER second, that would be meaningful, but as you requested, that would require a timer to prove.

fnfalman
08-27-2012, 11:19
Complaints about high bore axis = those that don't know how to shoot.

checkyoursix
08-27-2012, 11:25
I fear you are not going anywhere with this line of inquiry. People will speak of their perceptions, I am pretty sure that there is not an objective way to measure perceived recoil of similar handguns. it will blow back in your face one way or the other.

As for the influence of the bore axis, it's just a boring topic.

janice6
08-27-2012, 11:32
Your experience is going to be the only one of consequence in this topic. Others have totally different criteria for the same phenomenon.

You will not be able to answer your question except for yourself.

cfr
08-27-2012, 11:37
it will blow back in your face one way or the other.



Likely, but still interested. Thanks.

Dan Glock
08-27-2012, 11:37
Your experience is going to be the only one of consequence in this topic. Others have totally different criteria for the same phenomenon.

You will not be able to answer your question except for yourself.

Yup! X2

I for one don't mind my PPQ's "high" bore axis.

cfr
08-27-2012, 11:39
Your experience is going to be the only one of consequence in this topic. Others have totally different criteria for the same phenomenon.

You will not be able to answer your question except for yourself.

Agreed -- Ive answered it for myself, but not with a timer.... hence the post.

plouffedaddy
08-27-2012, 11:50
I am one who believes higer bore axis=more muzzle flip=slower splits.

One test I do when evaluating guns is 3 shots on a 10'' plate from 25 ft (all shots must be hits). With 9mm striker fired guns, I tend to be around .30 second splits or less. Higher bore axis guns (PPQ, SIG, ect..) tend to result in splits of .30-.35 with me. If I go faster with these guns I tend to start missing. Again, this is for me. It may vary for other shooters (i.e. you're a competition SIG shooter or former Navy SEAL and accustomed to those guns).

I recently shot a review using my G19 and my splits were .26 on this drill. With my 229 review I just did, my splits were .33 I believe.

We're talking slight variations. But with inexperienced shooters this difference becomes much more pronounced.

Apetrulis01
08-27-2012, 12:04
I answered this question in another thread. I shot competition and have shot the Glock 17 for years and years. I have made both master in USPSA Production and IDPA Stock Service Pistol using the Glock. Now I am saying this because my answer will have replies of "you don't know how to grip the gun," or I am not an experience shooter.

Basing of years of shooting with the glock (even the 19) the PPQ does seem to have more muzzle flip then a Glock or a Sig for the matter (but that is more of a weight issue with the Sig).

Is it that bad, no. I have only shot the PPQ on a static range and not in an actual match. My preception is that the Glock's muzzle flip is less thus it would lead to double taps being closer together. Now, if you shoot a double tap with the PPQ is the recoil cause you to good off target; no. Being in competition I choose the gun that I can effectively place rounds on target the fastest (cost is also a factor). With the Glock I am able to keep the double taps closer together, thus it is a better competition gun.

Would I carry a PPQ as a defensive gun, yes. The only thing keeping me back from buying one is the mag release. It is a small, thin lever that you have to push down, much smaller then that of an HK. I almost have to rotate my whole hand to get the release with my shooting finger and I have been shooting too many rounds to try to retrain my trigger finger to hit the release.

So Competition gun I would say the Glock is better, self defense gun I would have no trouble carrying it because the trigger is great on the gun.

So lets try to keep this on track and not have comments such as, "you must be a girl." "Come on, it is just a 9mm."

Thanks,
Adam

cfr
08-27-2012, 12:44
I appreciate everyones answers so far, and welcome more!

One thing about the Q that bothers people on different forums is having to readjust the hand to hit the mag release. What I do is brace my trigger finger on the frame, and use my middle finger for the mag release. Works great as far as Im concerned. Not trying to change anyones mind on anything, only offer something that wokrs for me. :wavey:

Apetrulis01
08-27-2012, 12:46
I appreciate everyones answers so far, and welcome more!

One thing about the Q that bothers people on different forums is having to readjust the hand to hit the mag release. What I do is brace my trigger finger on the frame, and use my middle finger for the mag release. Works great as far as Im concerned. Not trying to change anyones mind on anything, only offer something that wokrs for me. :wavey:

If that works for you great. I have shot why to many rounds and I am programed to use of thumb to hit the mag release. I would have to fire a crap ton of ammo to feel comfortable about hitting the mag release in a stressful self defense situation.

Adam

fastbolt
08-27-2012, 21:32
Yep, you've got to decide this sort of thing for yourself, using the criteria that matter to you.

Bear in mind that increasingly demanding conditions for shooting drills and situations, AND stress, may alter things (or maybe just your perception).

Then, factor in any physical degradation that occurs when experiencing the hormonal fear response (meaning not just stress that occurs when shooting for competition, against self or others, for scoring).

You decide. A good firearms instructor can be helpful in evaluating things. ;)

FWIW, I was running a compact alloy .40 for some training and a qual course-of-fire (S&W 4040PD, which is a 3.5" single column S&W pistol of approx the same size/weight as a 3913/908). This pistol is often considered by some shooters to have a "high bore axis".

I was using a mix of 180gr Winchester RA40T (both the SXT & T-Series versions of the RA40T), 165gr Win RA40TA (SXT version), 180gr Federal HST and the Win 155gr STHP. I was unable to distinguish the difference in felt recoil & muzzle whip when doing fast strings, with "fast" varying depending on the distances involved ... and my accuracy was unaffected. That's me.

As a firearms instructor I tend to shoot a fair amount, though ... and there's always room for continued improvement.

I used to think my SW9940 (standard size .40 model) had noticeable muzzle whip compared to other similarly sized .40's.

Now I don't.

The gun hasn't changed, and neither has the ammunition. ;)

Training & trigger time to build & maintain/reinforce good skills.

vic bastige
08-27-2012, 21:47
C'mon...it's a 9mm. None of us are girls here. I'm pretty handy with a pistol and find the Glock, Sig, XD and certainly the PPQ easy to deliver double taps accurately with. That said, everybody has an opinion and this is a subjective issue.

Gary1911A1
08-28-2012, 08:50
I have shot my PPQ in 9MM at the same time with the same ammo as my Glock 19. I tried to look for differences in how high the front sights were lifting, but I couldn't tell any difference. Maybe the grip of the PPQ is just better for me. My hits in Bill Drills were better with the PPQ most likely due to the better trigger. I just wish the magazines were easier to find and cheaper. I'm aware of the Magnum Research Magazines, but I'd prefer to get them made for my Walther.