Old .357 SIG load available once again. [Archive] - Glock Talk

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clarkstoncz
08-28-2012, 17:05
The Double Tap Ammo company's 115 gr. .357 SIG Gold Dot was last offered in 2009.

It's now available as the identical Bonded Defense JHP
that uses the Gold Dot bullet.

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb26/czrami/DOUBLE%20TAP%20357%20SIG/DT357_AUG/DT357large.jpg

A bit lighter than the firm's 125 gr. Bonded Defense
load.
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb26/czrami/DOUBLE%20TAP%20357%20SIG/dt125-1.jpg



This load has an advertised velocity of:

1550fps / 614 ft. lbs. 4"bbl

With these numbers for other barrel lengths:

3.5" barrel - 1494fps
4.5" barrel - 1612fps

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb26/czrami/DOUBLE%20TAP%20357%20SIG/DT357_AUG/DT357med.jpg

It should be a real screamer if it is as hot as the
NOSLER 115 grain load at:
1550fps / 614 ft. lbs. 4"bbl
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb26/czrami/DOUBLE%20TAP%20357%20SIG/dt-nos2.jpg
3.5" barrel - 1494fps
4.5" barrel - 1612fps

That load exhibits some muzzle flash, but a lot of bang.
Noticeably- faster than the 125s and 147s/

Note, that like Nosler load, the once again available DT 115 gr.
uses a flash supressed powder for virtually no muzzle flash
as well.
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb26/czrami/DOUBLE%20TAP%20357%20SIG/DT357_AUG/DT357long.jpg
Both should remain the fastest in the DT .357 SIG line,
except for the DT 80 gr. Barnes TAC-XP:


1725fps / 529 ft. lbs. 4.25"

3.5" barrel - 1600fps
4.5" barrel - 1755fps

( the load I carry in my RAMI P)

And have some appeal to those looking for truly smoking hot
.357 SIG ammo.
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb26/czrami/DOUBLE%20TAP%20357%20SIG/DT357_AUG/DT38357SIG.jpg

For more info:


115 gr. Bonded Defense JHP:

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_32&products_id=124

115 gr. NOSLER JHP:
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_32&products_id=453


80 gr. TAC-XP:
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_32&products_id=622


125 gr. 38+P Bonded Defense:

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_57&products_id=215

(All of these numbers are advertised, and your actual chrono results
will probably vary).


Thanks for looking, I hope to get out and shot some of this 115 grain fodder.



KEV

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb26/czrami/DOUBLE%20TAP%20357%20SIG/DT357_AUG/DT357small.jpg

dkf
08-28-2012, 17:19
The 115gr GD +P+ 9mm load @ 1400 fps barely gets 9" of penetration. Pushing the same bullet even faster will most likely yield even less. All three of those light loads have zero appeal to me for self defense and are entirely too expensive for target practice. I do not know why anyone would waste money on either unless all they want to do is brag about energy numbers on paper.:dunno:

Rev.357
08-28-2012, 18:19
I loaded & played with some 90gr XTP-HP @ 1700fps in my G31! In my wet media at 10yds it only got a little over 4''! But my friend was amazed at the BOOOM that load made side by side with his 10mm.

dkf
08-28-2012, 18:30
I keep 90gr XTPs around for my .380 and loaded a bunch up in .357sig. They are fun on steel for sure and if you want to make small animals explode. That is about it.

unit1069
08-28-2012, 18:37
The 115gr GD +P+ 9mm load @ 1400 fps barely gets 9" of penetration. Pushing the same bullet even faster will most likely yield even less. All three of those light loads have zero appeal to me for self defense and are entirely too expensive for target practice. I do not know why anyone would waste money on either unless all they want to do is brag about energy numbers on paper.:dunno:

Since my only reason for owning handguns is self-defense I see no advantage in pushing what is essentially a 9mm round to hyper velocity. I like the light weight 115-grain in 9mm; not in the more powerful .357sig.

Besides the excellent 125-grain JHP bonded and non-bonded .357sig rounds already available I'd like to see a Speer Gold Dot 147-grain and/or Remington 147-grain Golden Saber along with a Federal 147-grain HST in .357sig caliber.

Hornady already offers a 147-grain XTP in .357sig which gives 16" penetration but not quite 1.5X expansion. Maybe good for woods carry but not optimum for self-defense against human aggressors. And they also offer a 124-grain XTP that is essentially a 9mm bullet design as I suspect is the heavier one.

Double Tap used to offer a 147-grain Gold Dot (I still have a couple of mags worth) but the company's published stats have come under considerable criticism so I'm currently sticking to my 125-grain Speer and HST rounds, with yet-to-function-test Golden Saber Bonded waiting in the wings.

dkf
08-28-2012, 18:43
Once I get a chrono I want to see how fast I can push some 147gr XTPs to see how they do. I figure I may be able to get to get pretty close 1300fps. The Hornady 147gr sig loads are pretty watered down. All the XTP bullets have a good profile for the .357sig. The 147 GD is mediocre, don't know about the 147 HST but the GS 147 is a no go due to that stupid low driving band, it is strictly for 9mm.

SDGlock23
08-28-2012, 19:53
This load is the only DT ammo I've ever chronographed that actually exceeded box velocity. Out of my G23/32, it averaged a little over 1600 fps.

RYT 2BER
08-28-2012, 21:13
The 115gr GD +P+ 9mm load @ 1400 fps barely gets 9" of penetration. Pushing the same bullet even faster will most likely yield even less. All three of those light loads have zero appeal to me for self defense and are entirely too expensive for target practice. I do not know why anyone would waste money on either unless all they want to do is brag about energy numbers on paper.:dunno:

Personally I believe penetration numbers to be amazingly academic... I could be wrong, but I'm quite sure the sorry individual who gets hit with that 115 +p+ @ 1400 fps is going to be one very devastated person...

Based on what you're saying 135 gr 10 mm would be insufficient for self defense... I've seen it shot into wet packs... They basically exploded :supergrin:

dkf
08-28-2012, 21:30
Personally I believe penetration numbers to be amazingly academic...Tell that to the FBI.

If the bullet does not penetrate enough to reach the vitals it really is not that effective. Unless you can wait long enough for a large shallow wound to get infected, cause sepsis and ultimately death.:dunno:

clarkstoncz
08-28-2012, 21:42
Yes, I think that the reported 9 inches of penetration might be better for
someone who doesn't want the 13+ inches of the SPEER or DT 125 gr. Gold Dots.

.357 SIG Speer Gold Dot Ammo Test - YouTube

dkf
08-28-2012, 21:49
Yes, I think that the reported 9 inches of penetration might be better for someone who doesn't want the 13+ inches of the SPEER or DT 125 gr. Gold Dots.

That 9" was from the 115gr GD traveling at 1400fps. Push it to 1600fps I bet you will be lucky to get 7".

Foxtrotx1
08-28-2012, 21:57
That 9" was from the 115gr GD traveling at 1400fps. Push it to 1600fps I bet you will be lucky to get 7".

Yep.

These light weight speed freaks need a reality check.

You are not hunting varmits.

People have sternums, ribs, skulls, arms, hands ect. that may engage your bullet before it gets deep into the target. if a round only penetrates 7 inches in jello, try getting it to go through an arm (with bone) and then through a sternum then a half a foot through the vitals.

Over-penetration should not be a consideration.

Glockbuster
08-28-2012, 22:26
The 115gr GD +P+ 9mm load @ 1400 fps barely gets 9" of penetration. Pushing the same bullet even faster will most likely yield even less. All three of those light loads have zero appeal to me for self defense and are entirely too expensive for target practice. I do not know why anyone would waste money on either unless all they want to do is brag about energy numbers on paper.:dunno:

+1 me too

Tiro Fijo
08-28-2012, 23:43
The 115gr GD +P+ 9mm load @ 1400 fps barely gets 9" of penetration...

I do not know why anyone would waste money on either unless all they want to do is brag about energy numbers on paper.:dunno:


Because if you ask people who actually USED these against humans they will tell you that they work like the Hammer of Thor, e.g., Fed. BPLE & Win. RA9115HP+. The problem is that these have been for the most part out of the mainstream for approx. two decades and the people who used them are retired. That, coupled with the fact that when they were in common usage there were no Internet sales and they were very tighly controlled with few in the public knowing little if anything about them. Administrators, being what they are, "administrated" into the .40 S&W as they believed all the FBI dog & pony show BS that in essence was a mere smokescreen for the fact that the FBI is really run by accountants and are involved in relatively few gunfights at all.

Like every generation, the wheel has to be reinvented.

Foxtrotx1
08-29-2012, 08:04
Because if you ask people who actually USED these against humans they will tell you that they work like the Hammer of Thor, e.g., Fed. BPLE & Win. RA9115HP+. The problem is that these have been for the most part out of the mainstream for approx. two decades and the people who used them are retired. That, coupled with the fact that when they were in common usage there were no Internet sales and they were very tighly controlled with few in the public knowing little if anything about them. Administrators, being what they are, "administrated" into the .40 S&W as they believed all the FBI dog & pony show BS that in essence was a mere smokescreen for the fact that the FBI is really run by accountants and are involved in relatively few gunfights at all.

Like every generation, the wheel has to be reinvented.

Miami shootout?

dkf
08-29-2012, 08:16
When fired into the same media as all 3 Underwood 9mm +P+ loads the 9BPLE managed a little over 13" of penetration. I would say that the 9BPLE has adequate penetration. One can argue how accurate the denim/simtest media is compared to a body all they want however it does give a good comparison of what each cartridge is capable of in identical media.

itstime
08-29-2012, 08:34
Tell that to the FBI.

If the bullet does not penetrate enough to reach the vitals it really is not that effective. Unless you can wait long enough for a large shallow wound to get infected, cause sepsis and ultimately death.:dunno:

Morning laugh out loud. Yet it is so true.

Tiro Fijo
08-29-2012, 13:24
Miami shootout?


Miami Shootout involved Win. 9mm SILVERTIPS, 1st Gen. Totally different bullet.

RYT 2BER
08-29-2012, 18:31
Tell that to the FBI.

If the bullet does not penetrate enough to reach the vitals it really is not that effective. Unless you can wait long enough for a large shallow wound to get infected, cause sepsis and ultimately death.:dunno:

FBI requirements I'm sure have little to do with true Civilain self defense shootings at short distances... Guess I could be wrong but hey...

I have an idea...stand in front of a 115 +p+ and see what happens.. Hell even cover yourself with 4 layers of denim... I'm going to go on record that you'd be gone LONG before infection or sepsis... I'm guessing more like 15-20 seconds :upeyes:

Foxtrotx1
08-29-2012, 18:44
Miami Shootout involved Win. 9mm SILVERTIPS, 1st Gen. Totally different bullet.

I was referring to the lesson learned, not the bullet.

dkf
08-29-2012, 18:59
FBI requirements I'm sure have little to do with true Civilain self defense shootings at short distances... Guess I could be wrong but hey...

I have an idea...stand in front of a 115 +p+ and see what happens.. Hell even cover yourself with 4 layers of denim... I'm going to go on record that you'd be gone LONG before infection or sepsis... I'm guessing more like 15-20 seconds :upeyes:

It sounds to me like you really have no clue as to what exactly the FBI Ballistic Test Protocol is nor understand why it exists.

Please enlighten me as to how a LEO/Agent shooting a human is any different than that of a Civilian shooting a human.

Tiro Fijo
08-30-2012, 06:30
...Please enlighten me as to how a LEO/Agent shooting a human is any different than that of a Civilian shooting a human.


Because many times LE has to shoot someone who is behind cover or in cover, e.g., automobile. Notice I said cover & not concealment. There is a difference. 99.99% of civilians will never need a bonded bullet for such purposes unless they are dealing crack and shooting back at their local competitor in a drive by or hosing down his house.

:rofl:

uz2bUSMC
08-30-2012, 08:53
Because many times LE has to shoot someone who is behind cover or in cover, e.g., automobile. Notice I said cover & not concealment. There is a difference. 99.99% of civilians will never need a bonded bullet for such purposes unless they are dealing crack and shooting back at their local competitor in a drive by or hosing down his house.

:rofl:

Why is is that civilians think they will never have to shoot through their own car? 99.99% is ridiculous.

dkf
08-30-2012, 09:35
Why is is that civilians think they will never have to shoot through their own car? 99.99% is ridiculous.

87.6% of all statistics are made up on the spot.:whistling: I can think of many situations where I may have shoot through a "barrier". better to know what your carry load is capable of than not IMO.

Snowman92D
08-30-2012, 10:33
Tell that to the FBI.

You have any info on how many people the FBI has shot, in CONUS, with handguns this year? Okay...how about the last five, or ten years?

dkf
08-30-2012, 10:38
You have any info on how many people the FBI has shot, in CONUS, with handguns this year? Okay...how about the last five, or ten years?

So their low amount of shoots by their own guys voids all the research they have done on ballistics, bullet design and shoots from other agencies?

Snowman92D
08-30-2012, 10:50
"Shoots from other agencies"...? Seems like that would be like "anecdotes", and anecdotes are always suspect...true?

So...you're saying the FBI rarely shoots people with handguns?

dkf
08-30-2012, 11:04
"Shoots from other agencies"...? Seems like that would be like "anecdotes", and anecdotes are always suspect...true?

So...you're saying the FBI rarely shoots people with handguns?

FBI agents do not shoot a lot of "bad guys" themselves. It is the nature of the work they do, they for the most part are not street cops.

I suggest you do some reading into exactly what the FBI does. http://www.fbi.gov/

Snowman92D
08-30-2012, 11:08
I'm completely familiar with what the FBI does. You're the one who seems to be inadequately informed.

So...how many people have the FBI shot this year with handguns, in CONUS? None...? Okay...how about the last five years? Ten years?

dkf
08-30-2012, 11:12
I'm completely familiar with what the FBI does. You're the one who seems to be inadequately informed.

So...how many people have the FBI shot this year with handguns, in CONUS? None...? Okay...how about the last five years? Ten years?

Why do I have to dig up information for you exactly? And how exactly is the number of those shootings supposed to affect the accuracy of their findings?

Snowman92D
08-30-2012, 11:40
Bad form to attempt to deflect by answering a question with a question, especially when one is a thought leader and/or resident expert in a thread.

I was curious to know how much practical experience the FBI has in shooting people with the various handgun calibers and loads that they recommend, and you extoll.

So far, you've told me that they aren't really "street cops", and thus don't routinely collide with a lot of dangerous people on a daily basis. You also said they base their pronouncements on extensive "ballistic" research and "anecdotal" info from the street cops.

You seem like a where-the-rubber-meets-the-road kind of guy. So...how many people has the FBI shot with handguns, in CONUS, in the last five or ten years? Surely you don't gloss over things like that in your own research. How many...?

dkf
08-30-2012, 12:13
Bad form to attempt to deflect by answering a question with a question, especially when one is a thought leader and/or resident expert in a thread.
Kind of like you did since you entered the thread. A question that really has little to nothing to do with the thread. I understood what you were getting at with your question however. You are insunating the FBI does not have the creditability to determine ballistics criterium because of the questionable amount of shooting by their own agents. They are primarily an investigative agency for crimes throughout the entire nation so that is understandable.

I have not seen definitive statistics on what the FBIs average shoots per year, 5 years, decade and etc is. The actual number is probably not even published by them because they are at the top of the food chain and keep that info within certain channels. If you have some info, please share as this is what the forum is all about. I don't expect you to provide anything of substance however because I have good idea exactly what you bring to the table here. Honestly I do not have the time to play your petty little childish games.

Snowman92D
08-30-2012, 12:29
Okay...so, you're recommending things, based on what the FBI recommends, based on their own lack of first hand experience...but substituting "ballistic research" and anecdotal information they've gathered from shootings by "street cops" on other LE agencies? Does that leave the rest of us free to also use anecdotal information from various LE sources to further our own research? Or is "anecdotal" info valid only when it's cherry-picked to support a certain agenda...?

Not sure why you call my inquiries "childish". We're all trying to learn here.

Glockbuster
08-31-2012, 07:03
Why is is that civilians think they will never have to shoot through their own car? 99.99% is ridiculous.

absolutely!!

Glockbuster
08-31-2012, 07:36
Okay...so, you're recommending things, based on what the FBI recommends, based on their own lack of first hand experience...but substituting "ballistic research" and anecdotal information they've gathered from shootings by "street cops" on other LE agencies? Does that leave the rest of us free to also use anecdotal information from various LE sources to further our own research? Or is "anecdotal" info valid only when it's cherry-picked to support a certain agenda...?

Not sure why you call my inquiries "childish". We're all trying to learn here.


I know everyone has a right to do their own testing and their own preferences.

I on the other hand have quite a bit of faith in their ballistic test protocol. The FBI was not alone in developing the ballistic gel, nor is it alone in evaluating results. Even if they do not have their big lot of own shootings, excellent ammo manufacturers have used their standards to develop the great handgun ammo that we have today.

So I ask this: why should I use different standards than those which have been used in developing premium ammo ?

Snowman92D
08-31-2012, 08:35
I think you should use every bit of info from every resource you can find. Anyone who thinks that one party or another has all the answers is kidding themselves. And for sure, if I were gonna base my ammo choices on what one LE agency recommends it'd damn sure be an agency that actually gets in a lot of shootings.

dkf
08-31-2012, 09:22
I know everyone has a right to do their own testing and their own preferences.

I on the other hand have quite a bit of faith in their ballistic test protocol. The FBI was not alone in developing the ballistic gel, nor is it alone in evaluating results. Even if they do not have their big lot of own shootings, excellent ammo manufacturers have used their standards to develop the great handgun ammo that we have today.

So I ask this: why should I use different standards than those which have been used in developing premium ammo ?

Yep. The FBI has been around a while, get the facts and have their own facilities to verify. I understand they are one entity however and most of their findings have been proven accurate by other entities.

Glockbuster
08-31-2012, 09:30
I think you should use every bit of info from every resource you can find. Anyone who thinks that one party or another has all the answers is kidding themselves. And for sure, if I were gonna base my ammo choices on what one LE agency recommends it'd damn sure be an agency that actually gets in a lot of shootings.

Sure, but as you are well aware even after using all that info you will still need to make a decision. The old dilema comes to mind--light and fast ? bonded or non bonded ? more expansion or more penetration ? fragmentation or hold together ?

And you will never know in which circumstance you will need which. You might do very well close range on a summer day with a superfast 115 gr traveling at 1400 +FPS, but you might need better penetration in winter or through a car window.
Im not saying any of those rounds is not a good performer in any one given area, but for defense purposes I will likely stick with what is known to work for LE.

Snowman92D
08-31-2012, 09:33
Correct...and you're free to choose the LE agency.

fredj338
08-31-2012, 13:05
FBI requirements I'm sure have little to do with true Civilain self defense shootings at short distances... Guess I could be wrong but hey...

I have an idea...stand in front of a 115 +p+ and see what happens.. Hell even cover yourself with 4 layers of denim... I'm going to go on record that you'd be gone LONG before infection or sepsis... I'm guessing more like 15-20 seconds :upeyes:

Another juvenile rsponse, geeze. Reality, a bullet that only penetrates 8" of bare gello will more than likely fail if it is tasked to do more. DO yo ureally think you are going to get a clear, flat torso shot in a gunfight? No likely an intermediate barrier like a forearm or an angling shot through a shoulder. 8" of penetration will not do in those cases. Some really big dudes would just be absorbing them into their fat & muscle. I am not all sold on the FBI protocol as the final word, but you do need to understand what is going on whrn bullets strike lfesh, it's not a gal jug of water.:dunno:

spcwes
08-31-2012, 13:32
Because many times LE has to shoot someone who is behind cover or in cover, e.g., automobile. Notice I said cover & not concealment. There is a difference. 99.99% of civilians will never need a bonded bullet for such purposes unless they are dealing crack and shooting back at their local competitor in a drive by or hosing down his house.

:rofl:

Being in LE I can give you a couple more statistics to think about. Not sure on the exact number nation wide but in our area about 80% of crime is mobile in a vehicle at some point.

The majority of civilians that are attacked, assaulted, hurt and killed are NOT in their homes. A good majority happen around semi-populated concrete jungles with tons of cars, trees, metal trash cans, and houses.

Very little crime is from home invasions and most of our criminals do their best to go into empty houses so they have no chance on having to fight for being there. If I ever gave advise to a civilian in regards to the type of ammo they should use all things being equal I would tell them something that would penetrate well in a person, hold together well through a barrier and one they could shoot well.

Arms are barriers, legs are barriers as well as anything else that gets between you and a target. That being said having a 115gr hollow point slamming into my forearm at 1450-1500fps would SUCK and I would probably not wanna use that arm for some time.

I want a bullet that does well in ALL the testing I have seen lately no matter whos doing it. The thing I see in the largest % of tests I have seen done period show bonded bullets do well in all the standardized "tests".

PghJim
09-01-2012, 10:26
I was referring to the lesson learned, not the bullet.

The lesson had to do with tactics and training. Unfortunetly they blamed it on the bullet.