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pasky2112
08-29-2012, 21:35
Well, I had my first KB! yesterday. Fortunately the G20 held strong and just the mag well vented most of the discharge. Also, some came out of the slide/frame gap and made it's mark on my thumb. I THINK pieces of the follower or the top plastic part of the mag that blew off is what hit me in the face...right cheek (I'm a lefty). After I came to my senses and counted to ten on each hand, I started trying to piece together what happened. I was working up a load from the Hornady 7th guide... trying to get 180g MG JHP's to 1200fps with:

~~~


NEW Stock G20/stk bbl with NEW 22# SS RSA



NEW Starline brass



180g JHP (montana golds)



AA#7 @ 12g w/ CCI#300 LPP



seated COAL 1.255" and crimped with Lee FCD

Location in FL - ~80-85* and VERY humid; breezy; ~60' ASL (near coast). I have NEVER shot lead rounds in ANY Glock.

With 10 rnds in mag, I fired the first rnd @ 1253 fps. Brass case-head was .433" w/ flattened primer BUT didn't hit target (paper plate @ 15y)...I'm not THAT bad.
Case had usual Glock bulge for hot rnd out of stk bbl...no smiles or other chamber lines noted.
Fired rnd 2. Same results but 1220 fps... no rnd on target, either. The ejected case was in same condition as first. At this point, what was on my mind is why the heck was I not hitting a freakin' 8" target @ 15yds!
Fired 3rd rnd which was the KB. It crossed my chrono at 1135 fps. The pistol blew out of my hand fwd about 3-5' and the mag exploded down dumping the remaining 7 rnds around me. The mag is completely 'self disassembled'.

After I checked out all the G20 frame/slide/bbl/RSA parts for anomalies, I (maybe foolishly), fired a factory HDY 155g XTP that was in my 'carry mag'. I hit target @ POA at the expected speed of around 1300 fps. I collected everything, packed up and went home to my family, thank God.

I think that's all the facts. Any ideas on how i could have gone from a guppied case to a full rupture?

Double charges ruled out; no room for powder and/or bullet. No bbl obstruction; previous rnds crossed chrony and cases were recovered and assessed. This IS a max load according to the HDY book I used but it's not the first time I loaded to max...even in .40 in my G23. I'd expect the brass would have shown symptoms of over-spec pressure in previous rnds of that load b4 blowing on me? Any ideas? :dunno:

I attached pics of failed case and factory rnd in chamber.
You can see them below on 10mm-firearms.com below if they don't show up here.

http://10mm-firearms.com/reloading-10mm-ammo/g20-kb!-ideas-on-what-happened/ (http://10mm-firearms.com/reloading-10mm-ammo/g20-kb%21-ideas-on-what-happened/)

:faint:
- Dave

F106 Fan
08-29-2012, 21:48
When I look at the Accurate load data (Edition 3.5) for a 180 gr Hornady XTP it shows:

No.7 180 HDY XTP 9.6 1,041 10.7 1,183 35,300 1.250


It seems to me that 12.0 gr might be a little hot but you're using a different data source. I think I would use Accurate's data - they actually make the powder!

Could it be that the bullets got set back from recoil? Have you measured any of the rounds that hit the ground?

Richard

SPIN2010
08-29-2012, 21:49
Crimped and 1.255 OAL with a max charge of AA#7 ... I would say you are very lucky.

Advice (IMHO): Get an aftermarket barrel to do load testing on the 10mm platform with your G20. Check several load data sources before you shoot a work up.

Jim Watson
08-29-2012, 21:55
I don't have a Hornady guide, but Accurate Arms thinks 10.7 gr AA#7 is maximum with a 180 gr Hornady bullet. I think Montana Golds are pretty much a clone of the XTP but their brass jackets are going to increase resistance by some amount, maybe not enough to matter.

How did your lighter loads do?

I think failure of the bullets to hit a target at 15 yards has to mean something, but I don't know what.

Boxerglocker
08-29-2012, 22:01
You loaded and fired max loads right off the bat in a new gun? You didn't work up prior? (every batch can be different) Did you size your new brass?

dkf
08-29-2012, 22:03
I was working up a load from the Hornady 7th guide... trying to get 180g MG JHP's to 1200fps with:

Does that mean you started at say 10 grains and tryed different powder charges in between or did you just load a bunch up with 12gr and try them out?

pasky2112
08-29-2012, 22:11
When I look at the Accurate load data (Edition 3.5) for a 180 gr Hornady XTP it shows:
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It seems to me that 12.0 gr might be a little hot but you're using a different data source. I think I would use Accurate's data - they actually make the powder!

Could it be that the bullets got set back from recoil? Have you measured any of the rounds that hit the ground?

Richard



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Yep. In hindsight, That's the first thing that came to my mind. But I've done the same thing in .40 reloads using HDY tables for 1000's of hot rounds. With all of the mixed data out there, I thought I was using a consistent resource. But yeah...default to powder data when there's a conflict. But Damn! 10.7g vs. 12.0g! I started at 11.0g and got ~1050f/s. 11.5...11.7 all fine. Then 12.0 seemed fine velocity-wise and case symptom-wise and I got 2 shots off with no case deformity (chamber lines, etc.) Then boom... hit by pitch.
[edit] I just measured the remaining 7 and there's no change. 2 are 1.256, 1.257. Rest are 1.255...

PCJim
08-29-2012, 22:13
Per Accurate's reload data, you are at least a full grain of powder over max loading for a 180gr HP bullet. Owning a chronograph, there is no reason in the world you should have experienced a KB had you properly developed your loads. The reason for the lower FPS reading on your third shot is that a lot of pressure, read as velocity, was dumped thru the mag well.

Had you properly developed your load, I am quite sure you would have hit a velocity wall well before your 12.0gr AA#7. IF you are an experienced reloader, you should well know that we aren't always able to duplicate velocities that the factory says is obtainable. There are too many variables in components and testing apparatus.

While I'm glad that the experience has been nothing but a hopeful eye opener, how about letting me know in advance if you plan to drive south to do any shooting.

SARDG
08-29-2012, 22:20
OP- You say in the thread on the other site that you haven't calibrated your digital scale in a year. Is that true?

pasky2112
08-29-2012, 22:21
You loaded and fired max loads right off the bat in a new gun? You didn't work up prior? (every batch can be different) Did you size your new brass?
Ironically, I have a KKM on order. They've served me well in my .40 G22/23's.

No. I worked up from warm loads and didn't just start at max published. I haven't been doing this for decades but I usually start pretty light with a new caliber and pistol/bbl. My first loads with the G20 were the same 180's JHP MG's around 1000 fps w/ BD. I just wanted to work up to 1200fps with the 180's which seemed reasonable to me.

pasky2112
08-29-2012, 22:30
OP- You say in the thread on the other site that you haven't calibrated your digital scale in a year. Is that true?
I have a 100gram check weight I've popped on it once in a while but it has never regged anything off. So I stopped doing it, honestly. In hindsight, yeah. But at the time, what was the point? It never changed.

Boxerglocker
08-29-2012, 22:34
Ironically, I have a KKM on order. They've served me well in my .40 G22/23's.

No. I worked up from warm loads and didn't just start at max published. I haven't been doing this for decades but I usually start pretty light with a new caliber and pistol/bbl. My first loads with the G20 were the same 180's JHP MG's around 1000 fps w/ BD. I just wanted to work up to 1200fps with the 180's which seemed reasonable to me.

Remember, check and cross check your data. Start low and work up slowly. Most importantly "Powder charges are not linear" even working up with a chrono, there is a point of diminishing returns.
I don't think a KKM barrel would have changed anything given your particular chain of events. Be careful, glad to hear you walk away unscathed.

Boxerglocker
08-29-2012, 22:39
I have a 100gram check weight I've popped on it once in a while but it has never regged anything off. So I stopped doing it, honestly. In hindsight, yeah. But at the time, what was the point? It never changed.

You should calibrate your scale frequently and use check weights, and zero often even during a loading session. Load cells can go out of spec at any given time. Digital scales are great, my personal preference but they are not fool proof.

pasky2112
08-29-2012, 22:42
Per Accurate's reload data, you are at least a full grain of powder over max loading for a 180gr HP bullet. Owning a chronograph, there is no reason in the world you should have experienced a KB had you properly developed your loads. The reason for the lower FPS reading on your third shot is that a lot of pressure, read as velocity, was dumped thru the mag well.

Had you properly developed your load, I am quite sure you would have hit a velocity wall well before your 12.0gr AA#7. IF you are an experienced reloader, you should well know that we aren't always able to duplicate velocities that the factory says is obtainable. There are too many variables in components and testing apparatus.

While I'm glad that the experience has been nothing but a hopeful eye opener, how about letting me know in advance if you plan to drive south to do any shooting.
sure. I'll pick you up... funny guy.
Other than showing my my velocities were going up, I'm not sure how you mean having a chrono should have prevented a KB. I was checking my cases for pressure signs. And I know why the last round was slower.
It HAS been an eye opening experience. That's why I'm HUMBLY sharing the experience with everyone. So myself and other new reloaders can get experienced and helpful ideas on how to prevent and avoid these issues from reoccurring. We all start somewhere. Thanks.

pasky2112
08-29-2012, 22:50
Remember, check and cross check your data. Start low and work up slowly. Most importantly "Powder charges are not linear" even working up with a chrono, there is a point of diminishing returns.
I don't think a KKM barrel would have changed anything given your particular chain of events. Be careful, glad to hear you walk away unscathed.
I think you pretty much summed it up, Boxerglocker. Frankly, I likely worked the load up too fast and was complacent with the data that i had was safe if I stayed 'in the book'.
And that 'a book' is not enough. I should have been more patient and reviewed other resources rather than turn the page and start again. Thanks. I didn't realize the digital scales had those issues, either. I will research a higher quality scale and best practices to keep it accurate often. Much appreciated. I'm glad I walked away unscathed as well ;)

pasky2112
08-29-2012, 23:14
I don't have a Hornady guide, but Accurate Arms thinks 10.7 gr AA#7 is maximum with a 180 gr Hornady bullet. I think Montana Golds are pretty much a clone of the XTP but their brass jackets are going to increase resistance by some amount, maybe not enough to matter.

How did your lighter loads do?

I think failure of the bullets to hit a target at 15 yards has to mean something, but I don't know what.
Thanks Jim. My lighter loads went great. I was seeing what I expected on the chrono for ea. load (vel, ES, SD, Avg), I was shooting my usual grps on target and my cases were normal in terms of no unusual pressure deformities. I was quite pleased. The load that KB'd was my 5th for the session. I maybe shot a total of 100 rnds max.

Not hitting the target did give me pause, like i said, but nothing that would have indicated what was to happen. I knew i didn't have a squib. I slow fire and go hunt down the case and measure it when I get into max load territory.
I use MG 99% of the time. I've never had any probs with them. I treated them like the XTP's as far as load workups go for 1000's of rnds. They perform great.

sellersm
08-30-2012, 01:50
My first loads with the G20 were the same 180's JHP MG's around 1000 fps w/ BD...

Is there any chance you weren't actually using AA #7 as your powder, but had BD instead? 12.0gr of BD in a 180gr JHP sounds like it could be trouble...

shotgunred
08-30-2012, 06:01
On another note. Try to seat a mag in your gun. Normally when a glock KB's they blow a chunk off the mag release. It no big deal and you can get a new one from lonewolf for a couple of bucks.

Point two. Let me introduce you to the shotgunred philosophy of reloading. Start low. Check for accuracy. when you find a load that is accurate stop. There is nothing to be gained from going higher at that point. You just put more strain on your arm joints and your gun. You are not going to find a good medium burner out there that will not be accurate load at a lot less than max load. If you want more bark and to feel more recoil switch to power pistol.

Breadman03
08-30-2012, 06:20
sure. I'll pick you up... funny guy.
Other than showing my my velocities were going up, I'm not sure how you mean having a chrono should have prevented a KB. I was checking my cases for pressure signs. And I know why the last round was slower.
It HAS been an eye opening experience. That's why I'm HUMBLY sharing the experience with everyone. So myself and other new reloaders can get experienced and helpful ideas on how to prevent and avoid these issues from reoccurring. We all start somewhere. Thanks.

Your velocity will increase as you increase your powder charge. Let's say 100 fps per .1 grain. If you notice that all of a sudden, you get 25 fps, you know you are near/at max load.

Keep in mind, I haven't been loading very long and just recently got a chrono, so my understanding may not be totally accurate.

F106 Fan
08-30-2012, 07:07
I have a 100gram check weight I've popped on it once in a while but it has never regged anything off. So I stopped doing it, honestly. In hindsight, yeah. But at the time, what was the point? It never changed.

You need check weights for your digital scale. A calibration weight of 100 grams (1543 grains) just doesn't mean much when you're splitting hairs at 10 to 12 grains. Here's a selection:
http://www.midwayusa.com/find?userSearchQuery=check+weights

Just for info, which scale are you using? Digital scales come in various quality levels and only the Dillon D-Terminator or similarly priced units are good enough. Fred has stated before that there are no good digital scales less than $100 and I think inflation has probably bumped that up a bit.

As to checking for 'pressure signs': Read starting at page 59 of Speer #14. Their point of view is that by the time you can see evidence of overpressure, you are at least 20% above max. And if they can't read pressure signs, I certainly can't!

The flattened primer thing might be important if Federal primers didn't flatten in a wind storm and others have to be mashed with a freight train. Then too, primers are extruded into the striker slot on Glocks whether the loads are hot or not. I don't think measuring the height of the extrusion will be a standard test anytime soon!

I'm real curious about the scale. A little booboo in the reading and a charge that exceeds the powder manufacturer's recommendataion could very well be the cause of the KB.

Richard

Boxerglocker
08-30-2012, 07:31
Your velocity will increase as you increase your powder charge. Let's say 100 fps per .1 grain. If you notice that all of a sudden, you get 25 fps, you know you are near/at max load.

Keep in mind, I haven't been loading very long and just recently got a chrono, so my understanding may not be totally accurate.

You mostly right but as I stated "Powder charges are not linear" meaning there is no graph that says 0.1 g equal 100 fps through the range. Even if you have max data that is reliable, cross checked, etc. That data is not for your particular gun, barrel length of type in MOST instances. Fast powders in particular can had sudden pressure spikes near max ranges with only slight variances as you develop you load.

unclebob
08-30-2012, 08:15
Sounds like you only used one reference. Everything I have looked at says your charge is way over. You said you had flattened primers. Right there it is tell you, you are over pressure. If you have any one sign of over pressure you stop.
You say you check your scale every once awhile with a 100gr calibration weight. There is a big difference between 100gr and 12 grs. You need to get a set of check weights. If you want to load 10 grains you put 10 grains in the pan if it does not read 10 grains you have something wrong. It does not make any difference if you have a digital or a beam scale you need a set of check weights.
When working up max loads. Put a round in the chamber then pull the magazine out to shoot the round. If you do have a KB with the magazine out you have more of an area for the pressure to relieve.

Beware Owner
08-30-2012, 09:07
I stop at the first sign of high pressure. I'd have gone back to pull the bullets at that point.

sourdough44
08-30-2012, 09:38
Thanks for posting, it helps keep us on our toes.

Living in FL I have to ask why? 1200 fps with a 180 grn bullet seems like a bit much, though I don't reload for the 10mm.

Zombie Steve
08-30-2012, 10:11
KB! In New G20. Ideas? What Next?

Buy some factory ammo to hold you over until you get done doing all that pesky reading in those reloading manuals.

fredj338
08-30-2012, 10:12
The thing you & many reloaders forget is pressures rarely build in a linear fashion. The closer you get to max, the steeper the pressure curve. A chron will sometims show this as a flattening of vel increase w/ every 1/10gr or a wild spike, both can mean excessive pressures are around the corner. Working in anything but 1/10gr increments as you approach & go past max is just foolish, even with slower powders like AA#7. Getting 1200fps W/ a 180gr anything is safely done. Maybe not w/ AA#7 in your gun, but maybe. Longshot, BlueDot, AA#9, all will get 1200fps w/o pressure issues.

Colorado4Wheel
08-30-2012, 10:38
The idea of using a Max load, not calibrating the scale, seeing flat primers and then buying a KKM barrel makes my head hurt. Stop loading your 10mm like it's a 41mag.

pasky2112
08-30-2012, 10:52
Is there any chance you weren't actually using AA #7 as your powder, but had BD instead? 12.0gr of BD in a 180gr JHP sounds like it could be trouble...
No. The BD loads I referred to were made and shot early last week. I never have but one powder on the bench at once. I clean my powder hopper before changing powders.

pasky2112
08-30-2012, 11:08
Thanks to all with helpful comments and suggestions. Most of what I've learned here (and hopefully some others too) can mostly be summed up in the below article which I would have like to have read previously. Also, I never realized that dig scales needed so much attn.
Many here address the non-linear nature of component changes. Reading pressure signs on brass and chrono readings are unreliable, in terms of the edge of max loading and pressure. Have a look... http://kwk.us/chronographs.html

HTH...

pasky2112
08-30-2012, 11:21
The thing you & many reloaders forget is pressures rarely build in a linear fashion. The closer you get to max, the steeper the pressure curve. A chron will sometims show this as a flattening of vel increase w/ every 1/10gr or a wild spike, both can mean excessive pressures are around the corner. Working in anything but 1/10gr increments as you approach & go past max is just foolish, even with slower powders like AA#7. Getting 1200fps W/ a 180gr anything is safely done. Maybe not w/ AA#7 in your gun, but maybe. Longshot, BlueDot, AA#9, all will get 1200fps w/o pressure issues.
I hear all that and agree. But i didn't think I was going beyond max at the time based on the data I was using. I had no desire to load past max.

pasky2112
08-30-2012, 11:36
On another note. Try to seat a mag in your gun. Normally when a glock KB's they blow a chunk off the mag release. It no big deal and you can get a new one from lonewolf for a couple of bucks.

Point two. Let me introduce you to the shotgunred philosophy of reloading. Start low. Check for accuracy. when you find a load that is accurate stop. There is nothing to be gained from going higher at that point. You just put more strain on your arm joints and your gun. You are not going to find a good medium burner out there that will not be accurate load at a lot less than max load. If you want more bark and to feel more recoil switch to power pistol.
Will do on the mag release. I DCR'd my G20 and checked for cracks and any damage. Beyond X-raying it, I don't see any anomalies. I used the checklist from the Glock Armorers book to make sure I didn't skip anything.
If/when I try to work up to max loads again, I will just take the mag out after chambering a rnd from it. But I agree w/ what you say about stopping at the accuracy load. I do that with rifle loads.

pasky2112
08-30-2012, 12:17
The idea of using a Max load, not calibrating the scale, seeing flat primers and then buying a KKM barrel makes my head hurt. Stop loading your 10mm like it's a 41mag.
I'm glad you bring that up.
Agree or not, there IS a perception out there...and in here... that the 10mm is comparable to a "41 mag auto". I've seen it more times than I can count and from reputable pubs, not just in forums. It's my opinion that this is a DANGEROUS image to project... especially in an autoloader like a G20, etc. (not saying G20 and/or 10mm is inherently dangerous) Maybe some experienced 10mm shooters/reloaders 'know better', but a guy like me interested in getting involved with 10mm autos, for whatever reason, see this pervasive ideal everywhere and start to percieve it as an 'auto-mag' capable of handling 'nuke' loads. Search 'nuke' in any 10mm forum and tell me I'm wrong.
Yeah yeah...I know they come with the usual 'reduce and work up carefully' warnings. That's cool and responsible. But C'mon... we're Americans! We developed and exploded the 1st atom bombs! We push the edge...
Seriously, I get the importance of careful load workups. And I'm learning just like everyone here. I just think careful consideration should be made by SOME who present the 10mm auto to be more than what it is. For instance, ..."that's a bunny fart load. To get the real feel for what a 10mm can do"....<fill in the blank>.
Let me stop some of you who are thinking I'm putting the blame for my KB. I'm not. I made my choices and I'm grateful for only minor consequences and major lessons. Also I'm MAJORLY appreciative to those of you who offer constructive tips, pointed out some rookie mistakes (e.g. scale quality/calibrations) and those with a thought to try to help.
I'm just throwing these thoughts out there b/c I feel they need to be said as a caution to 10mm loaders, esp. noobs... like myself.

fredj338
08-30-2012, 13:13
I hear all that and agree. But i didn't think I was going beyond max at the time based on the data I was using. I had no desire to load past max.

Then you need more than one source. When working a new powder/bullet/caliber, 3 printed sources are useful, use the avg from all three as starting & max. Work to the avg max, exceed that only if there are no pressure signs. Understand what your chrono is telling you. Work in smaller powder increments so you can see the changes more readily, 1/10gr max for small cases like the 10mm. Once the vel flattens or spikes, you are probably at max for that gun & load. Adding more powder only raises pressures.

pasky2112
08-30-2012, 13:37
You need check weights for your digital scale. A calibration weight of 100 grams (1543 grains) just doesn't mean much when you're splitting hairs at 10 to 12 grains. Here's a selection:
http://www.midwayusa.com/find?userSearchQuery=check+weights

Just for info, which scale are you using? Digital scales come in various quality levels and only the Dillon D-Terminator or similarly priced units are good enough. Fred has stated before that there are no good digital scales less than $100 and I think inflation has probably bumped that up a bit.

As to checking for 'pressure signs': Read starting at page 59 of Speer #14. Their point of view is that by the time you can see evidence of overpressure, you are at least 20% above max. And if they can't read pressure signs, I certainly can't!

The flattened primer thing might be important if Federal primers didn't flatten in a wind storm and others have to be mashed with a freight train. Then too, primers are extruded into the striker slot on Glocks whether the loads are hot or not. I don't think measuring the height of the extrusion will be a standard test anytime soon!

I'm real curious about the scale. A little booboo in the reading and a charge that exceeds the powder manufacturer's recommendataion could very well be the cause of the KB.

Richard
Thanks Richard. Here is the scale I've been using. http://brianenos.com/store/be.scale_be.html I got it when I bought my 550b. You know...the pkg deal. As a newbie, I figured Brian Enos was a good adviser for starting out reloading pistol.

I took this to be an accurate scale for pistol reloading...(+/- .1gr) like other more expensive ones. In hindsight (again) this seems to have been a mistake to count on this scale and using 2 check wts. But I had no way of knowing that at the time. I wasn't a benchrest rifle loader looking to get .125 MOA. I zero it with a check weight each use. I have to zero with the powder pan/funnel I use. 96.2grns. So, you see where I'm coming from? Why would I have thought this scale was insufficient?
I know there's another thread on scales now, but it seems like the RCBS 750 is getting some pretty BAD reviews lately for QC and overall service/support? Any thoughts on the Dillon? http://www.dillonprecision.com/#/content/p/9/pid/25213/catid/7/D_Terminator_Electronic_Scale

Thanks again.

- Dave

pasky2112
08-30-2012, 13:57
Then you need more than one source. When working a new powder/bullet/caliber, 3 printed sources are useful, use the avg from all three as starting & max. Work to the avg max, exceed that only if there are no pressure signs. Understand what your chrono is telling you. Work in smaller powder increments so you can see the changes more readily, 1/10gr max for small cases like the 10mm. Once the vel flattens or spikes, you are probably at max for that gun & load. Adding more powder only raises pressures.
I like the avg powder charge idea. Great point. I have read multiple resources, Speer, Sierra, Hdy, Hodgdon...powder manuf. of all kinds. It seems the more I read, the more conflicts there are. So, I just cherrypicked one to settle the differences (bullets, primers, cases, bbl len, twist rate, powders)... mistake in hindsight.
Generally speaking, trying to dev a load to max all the time is a hairy and unpredictable proposition. Maybe I'll take up a safer hobby like tornado chasing... ;-) But seriously, perhaps loading for sub-max accuracy is a better long term game IMHO.
Thanks again!

- Dave

Colorado4Wheel
08-30-2012, 14:13
I would be curious to know the complete load data you used. Including FPS, Barrel Length, Type of gun/fixture used. Etc.

Edit, As in what does the book say? Not what you used.

F106 Fan
08-30-2012, 14:24
I'm glad you bring that up.
Agree or not, there IS a perception out there...and in here... that the 10mm is comparable to a "41 mag auto". I've seen it more times than I can count and from reputable pubs, not just in forums. It's my opinion that this is a DANGEROUS image to project... especially in an autoloader like a G20, etc. (not saying G20 and/or 10mm is inherently dangerous) Maybe some experienced 10mm shooters/reloaders 'know better', but a guy like me interested in getting involved with 10mm autos, for whatever reason, see this pervasive ideal everywhere and start to percieve it as an 'auto-mag' capable of handling 'nuke' loads. Search 'nuke' in any 10mm forum and tell me I'm wrong.
Yeah yeah...I know they come with the usual 'reduce and work up carefully' warnings. That's cool and responsible. But C'mon... we're Americans! We developed and exploded the 1st atom bombs! We push the edge...
Seriously, I get the importance of careful load workups. And I'm learning just like everyone here. I just think careful consideration should be made by SOME who present the 10mm auto to be more than what it is. For instance, ..."that's a bunny fart load. To get the real feel for what a 10mm can do"....<fill in the blank>.
Let me stop some of you who are thinking I'm putting the blame for my KB. I'm not. I made my choices and I'm grateful for only minor consequences and major lessons. Also I'm MAJORLY appreciative to those of you who offer constructive tips, pointed out some rookie mistakes (e.g. scale quality/calibrations) and those with a thought to try to help.
I'm just throwing these thoughts out there b/c I feel they need to be said as a caution to 10mm loaders, esp. noobs... like myself.

One of the things you will frequently see posted on THIS responsible forum is the advice to ignore 'Internet Loads', including our own. One of the things we rarely do is give load data to someone who we preceive hasn't bought a loading manual. We may point him to the various manufacturers' web sites but it's not often we just outright spec loads. If the OP is asking to compare something and he appears to have already done most of the homework, sure, everybody will jump right in. Personally, I tend to parrot what I have in publications and Hornady still thinks 12 gr is ok for your load. Hm...

There seem to be a lot of problems with new reloaders vs .40 S&W and 10mm. I think that's because they are both high pressure cartridges and a little extra powder goes a long way. I don't recall reading about a .45 ACP KB that wasn't obviously a double charge but it's a low pressure cartridge and maybe it's more forgiving. Not that I push the max...

There's a lot of really bad ideas on the Internet. Around here you will find a bunch of long time reloaders who really know what's going on. BTW, I'm not one of them...

Richard

F106 Fan
08-30-2012, 14:38
Thanks Richard. Here is the scale I've been using. http://brianenos.com/store/be.scale_be.html I got it when I bought my 550b. You know...the pkg deal. As a newbie, I figured Brian Enos was a good adviser for starting out reloading pistol.

I took this to be an accurate scale for pistol reloading...(+/- .1gr) like other more expensive ones. In hindsight (again) this seems to have been a mistake to count on this scale and using 2 check wts. But I had no way of knowing that at the time. I wasn't a benchrest rifle loader looking to get .125 MOA. I zero it with a check weight each use. I have to zero with the powder pan/funnel I use. 96.2grns. So, you see where I'm coming from? Why would I have thought this scale was insufficient?
I know there's another thread on scales now, but it seems like the RCBS 750 is getting some pretty BAD reviews lately for QC and overall service/support? Any thoughts on the Dillon? http://www.dillonprecision.com/#/content/p/9/pid/25213/catid/7/D_Terminator_Electronic_Scale

Thanks again.

- Dave

The problem I have with calibration weights is that they are 100 times heavier than what I want to weigh. It would be like using my 150 ft-lb 1/2" drive torque wrench to mount a rifle scope.

It's important to calibrate the scale but it is even more important to check it against something in the range of what you are measuring. I will be measuring 42.2 grains of IMR 4064 for some .308 loads. I will be checking my scale against a 50 gr check weight. I probably won't be calibrating it at all.

Two different processes with two different goals but it's the check process that keeps me from violently disassembling my rifle.

A few months ago I was at a range when the range master showed me a rifle barrel that was opened up just like you see in the Porky The Pig cartoons except turned the other way around. It looked like some kind of flowering plant. I have forgotten what he said went wrong with the owner's reloading but the result was VIOLENT!

One thing I do know: That scale you have doesn't come with a wind screen and I know from experience that wind currents can mess up the readings. Typically, the powder will weigh heavy so the load is actually lighter but I don't think it is guaranteed.

I strongly recommend you buy the Dillon D-Terminator. We have another thread on digital scales and a large number of the long time reloaders are using that scale. As am I...

Richard

SARDG
08-30-2012, 14:54
This is the Enos scale I have - but it's really backed up with frequent calibration, check weights, and a RCBS Chargemaster. Call me paranoid.
http://brianenos.com/store/be.scale_hp.html

I also check brass and primers frquently - but Federal primers always look flattened to me, so I've asked a few of our club's reloaders who have examined my shot brass and they all claim there is no problem.

pasky2112
08-30-2012, 15:18
You mostly right but as I stated "Powder charges are not linear" meaning there is no graph that says 0.1 g equal 100 fps through the range. Even if you have max data that is reliable, cross checked, etc. That data is not for your particular gun, barrel length of type in MOST instances. Fast powders in particular can had sudden pressure spikes near max ranges with only slight variances as you develop you load.
This all has proved to be true. I posted this b4 but in light of what you're stating, I think it bears repeating and shows some details of how slight deviations in loads...any load... can have unpredictable results. When that happens at the edge of trying to work up a max load...well, it can have violent results. Even the pro's blow a tube or chamber b/c they missed 'a sign'. They're not likely holding it in front of their faces, though. ;)
http://kwk.us/chronographs.html
Don't let the 'chronographs' in the URL throw you. It addresses results of loads with the slightest variable.

PhotoFeller
08-30-2012, 15:36
Thanks for posting, it helps keep us on our toes.

Living in FL I have to ask why? 1200 fps with a 180 grn bullet seems like a bit much, though I don't reload for the 10mm.

I'm not hand loading yet, but I'm trying to learn from you guys and elsewhere. I have the popular manuals and read threads like this one with interest.

I am also wondering why one would push the envelope by loading to max. I'm not savvy enough to figure out the motivation, other than being adventurous. Is there a significant ballistic effectiveness benefit at the very top end?

I ask because it seems lots of hand loaders like to operate on the high end where small errors can have big consequences. Thanks.

PCJim
08-30-2012, 16:16
I'm not hand loading yet, but I'm trying to learn from you guys and elsewhere. I have the popular manuals and read threads like this one with interest.

I am also wondering why one would push the envelope by loading to max. I'm not savvy enough to figure out the motivation, other than being adventurous. Is there a significant ballistic effectiveness benefit at the very top end?

I ask because it seems lots of hand loaders like to operate on the high end where small errors can have big consequences. Thanks.

Well, not all hand loaders push max loads for the caliber. I for one don't, and I know that others on this forum don't also. Yes, there are a few but not the majority. I, like Fred mentioned, am of the opinion that if the load isn't comfortable for the caliber, I'll go to a larger caliber. And if I need something with more footpound energy delivery than a 44Mag, I'm going to pick up a rifle.

unclebob
08-30-2012, 16:44
A lot is Tim Allen syndrome.

F106 Fan
08-30-2012, 16:56
I am also wondering why one would push the envelope by loading to max. I'm not savvy enough to figure out the motivation, other than being adventurous. Is there a significant ballistic effectiveness benefit at the very top end?

I ask because it seems lots of hand loaders like to operate on the high end where small errors can have big consequences. Thanks.

Maybe for the same reason I used to enjoy driving muscle cars flat out! If it had 400 HP, why let 300 of them just lope along?

Fortunately for me, I survived the muscle car era (many didn't) and I have no interest in punching a hole in paper with an ever faster bullet.

I think you will find that the majority of folks on this forum stay well away from max loads. If you really NEED a faster bullet, choose a different powder.

Looking at the Hornady manual (8th Ed) for the 180 gr HP-XTP, notice that, in theory (but not practice, apparently) 12.0 gr of AA-7 is a max load and delivers 1200 fps. Changing to AA-9 and using 14.4 gr will theoretically deliver the same velocity while staying 0.5 gr away from the max charge of 14.9 gr which will, theoretically, deliver 1250 fps. Pick the right powder! Stay away from max!

Being a wimp at heart, I would aim for 1050-1100 fps and call it a day.

Richard

F106 Fan
08-30-2012, 17:06
A lot is Tim Allen syndrome.

Home Improvement was going to be two stars in a lovely adult romance. It turned out to be this show about the ape-man who blows up ****.

TIM ALLEN, Mr. Showbiz, 1996

Sometimes you get the sense that the Creator is getting to that point of "Yeah, we might have to reboot."

TIM ALLEN, Esquire, Nov. 2011

Richard

pasky2112
08-30-2012, 17:54
Maybe for the same reason I used to enjoy driving muscle cars flat out! If it had 400 HP, why let 300 of them just lope along?

Fortunately for me, I survived the muscle car era (many didn't) and I have no interest in punching a hole in paper with an ever faster bullet.

I think you will find that the majority of folks on this forum stay well away from max loads. If you really NEED a faster bullet, choose a different powder.

Looking at the Hornady manual (8th Ed) for the 180 gr HP-XTP, notice that, in theory (but not practice, apparently) 12.0 gr of AA-7 is a max load and delivers 1200 fps. Changing to AA-9 and using 14.4 gr will theoretically deliver the same velocity while staying 0.5 gr away from the max charge of 14.9 gr which will, theoretically, deliver 1250 fps. Pick the right powder! Stay away from max!

Being a wimp at heart, I would aim for 1050-1100 fps and call it a day.

Richard
...and cross check that HDY data with the Accurate data before taking another step! ;-)

F106 Fan
08-30-2012, 18:08
...and cross check that HDY data with the Accurate data before taking another step! ;-)

I'm not 100% convinced that the Hornady data is wrong. Yes, it exceeds the Accurate data, but that doesn't make it wrong. Just 'less conserative' perhaps. Speer #14 has the same maximum load while Lyman 49th shows an 11.5 gr max.

I'm not ruling out an error from your scale and I'm not sure about the wisdom of crimping a straightwall pistol case. Then again, I don't know how, or by how much, the bullet was crimped. I'm not ruling out the difference between a Hornady XTP and a Montana Gold JHP in terms of sidewall friction (or bearing surface). I'm also wondering about the number of lighter loads shot in multiple round groups that were used to work up to the max load. I'm also not willing to rule out 'operator error'. I don't know how you adjust your scale for tare weight. On the Dillon, I hit the zero button with an empty pan on the platform. From then on, I am only measuring the added powder. I don't have to zero again.

I am also not willing to rule out a bullet setback during chambering. It goes back to that 'crimp' question. Crimping a straightwall pistol case reduces neck tension making it easier for a bullet to be set back while chambering.

And the rounds missed the plate. What's that about? A few extra FPS certainly didn't change the trajectory. I wonder if the bullet was driven so hard it just disintegrated.

And so on...

Richard

F106 Fan
08-30-2012, 18:16
And I don't know if the rounds would pass a 'kerplunk' test. The bullet should not be impacting the rifling and I don't know enough about the MG bullet profile to know whether your OAL was reasonable.

Take the barrel out of the gun and drop a round in the chamber. Twist it around and convince yourself that the only thing adding friction is the case mouth against the ridge at the end of the chamber. The bullet should not be dragging on the rifling.

Richard

TX Archer
08-30-2012, 18:21
I'm not hand loading yet, but I'm trying to learn from you guys and elsewhere. I have the popular manuals and read threads like this one with interest.

I am also wondering why one would push the envelope by loading to max. I'm not savvy enough to figure out the motivation, other than being adventurous. Is there a significant ballistic effectiveness benefit at the very top end?

I ask because it seems lots of hand loaders like to operate on the high end where small errors can have big consequences. Thanks.
Good for you! That's the smart way to go about it. Ready, study, and learn. Keep wondering why people push the envelope when there's nothing to gain. But go about it the smart way, yourself. And finally, keep your attitude about small errors and big consequences. That awareness will go a long way toward keeping you safe.

TX Archer
08-30-2012, 18:27
This whole thing about observing flattened primers but continuing to shoot that load just baffles me. I have established sub-max loads that I shoot for my calibers and I still habitually pick up the cases and examine them while at the range. I don't expect to see anything worrisome but there is zero doubt in my mind that I'd unload the gun and put it away if I saw anything out of the ordinary. Why ignore a sign that you knew meant trouble?

I don't ask this to be argumentative or to scold. I just tend to be curious about human behavior.

WiskyT
08-30-2012, 18:38
I have a hard time seeing a load published in the Hornady manual, if followed, blowing up a gun.

Also, the OP's belief that the previously fired rounds having the "typical Glock bulge" being "normal" makes me a little leary of his whole approach to reloading. Brass bulging is the last step before brass blowing out, which is what we have here. Regardless of the cause or the gun, bulged brass is a "clue" to stop what you are doing. In all my years reloading, I have only had two situations that produced bulged brass and once recognized, those situations were stopped.

fredj338
08-30-2012, 18:49
I have a hard time seeing a load published in the Hornady manual, if followed, blowing up a gun.

Also, the OP's belief that the previously fired rounds having the "typical Glock bulge" being "normal" makes me a little leary of his whole approach to reloading. Brass bulging is the last step before brass blowing out, which is what we have here. Regardless of the cause or the gun, bulged brass is a "clue" to stop what you are doing. In all my years reloading, I have only had two situations that produced bulged brass and once recognized, those situations were stopped.

More than a clue! IF the brass is bulging, that load is over pressure for that gun, REGARDLESS of where the data came from.:wow:

dkf
08-30-2012, 19:16
Any of the brass look like this.

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm285/SDV10/10mmbulge1.jpg

SARDG
08-30-2012, 19:22
...And the rounds missed the plate. What's that about? A few extra FPS certainly didn't change the trajectory. I wonder if the bullet was driven so hard it just disintegrated.

Richard
I've dug completely intact MG CMJ bullets out of the impact berm that looked like I could reload them again - some still partially shiny gold (sans a few rifling marks). They're pretty tough.

Taterhead
08-30-2012, 19:32
More than a clue! IF the brass is bulging, that load is over pressure for that gun, REGARDLESS of where the data came from.:wow:

I guess that depends upon what we mean by "bulge." Even bunny toot loads shot in a Glock barrel will give a Glock belly on the brass. In my opinion, those types of "bulges" are certainly not of excessive pressure for that gun. I wouldn't consider that bulged -- although others do and won't shoot out of a Glock barrel for that reason. I personally would not shoot a load in a KKM barrel that I deemed to be unsafe in a Glock barrel.

Having worked with A7 in 10mm, I like it. It is a good powder. However, 12.0 grains seems pretty warm to me. (Hornady has had at least one recent correction for A7 powder in the 10mm section, plus their 180 gr 800-X load gave excessive pressure symptoms below max). Accordingly, your advice about reviewing several different published loads is spot on, and part of my practice.

So take what I believe to be a fairly stout published load with little margin for oops. Combine that with a decent probability of a powder-weighing error for reasons already described, and bad things can happen.

As has been mentioned before, and I will echo, setup your scale; verify the scale settings with check weights, and carry on. A check weight set like is available from RCBS will give weight combinations to the 1/2 of a grain. That is a lot closer than a 100 gr check weight when tenths are so meaningful.

Accurate no. 9 is more suitable to get to 180 @ 1200. Some like Longshot or 800-X too, but I can't get there in a G20 without going over book - any book.

Colorado4Wheel
08-30-2012, 19:52
My full power loads in my G20 don't bulge the brass. The brass does expand to the size of the chamber. But that is normal.

This thread is a cautionary tale. I would bet that the OP's load data from Hornady is from a longer barrel and also from a test barrel not a real gun. Trying to get the same velocity as the book in G20 is just asking for trouble like the OP experienced.

SDGlock23
08-30-2012, 20:45
For what it's worth, get you some Power Pistol, as 8.5gr gets you a tad over 1200 fps from a G20, and it's below book max. Great shooter too! Another thing, I personally have never got anywhere near claimed velocity with any Accurate Arms powder out of any cartridge.

There is often a rather large discrepancy between manufacturers data and 3rd party data. Always lean on the side of safety, it beats the pants off the alternative. Additionally, it's not uncommon for guys to work up loads in an aftermarket barrel that are really too hot to be honest, it's not an entirely safe habit to get into. You can get away with some things with an aftermarket bbl, but stay away from nuclear stuff in the stock setup.

RWBlue
08-30-2012, 21:29
I am also wondering why one would push the envelope by loading to max. I'm not savvy enough to figure out the motivation, other than being adventurous. Is there a significant ballistic effectiveness benefit at the very top end?


It is about finding limits. How slow can I go? How fast can I go? How heavy and how light?

But understand when doing this, I am loading one round at time with a scale that has proven time and time again to be accurate at delivering EXACTLY the amount of power I requested. I read and then bag my brass in zip lock bags with a tag so I know the day, temp, other weather conditions, powder, batch....... Then put all the data into a spreadsheet to analyze it when I can not get to the range.

Then there are the gel test.....

This is not a task for a bulk reloader on a progressive press.

Colorado4Wheel
08-30-2012, 21:31
Everyone is using a different book of course... but I found AA7 and power pistol to produce the same velocity using Layman's Max load. Neither hit 1200 fps but I was using less powder.

fredj338
08-30-2012, 23:00
I guess that depends upon what we mean by "bulge." Even bunny toot loads shot in a Glock barrel will give a Glock belly on the brass. In my opinion, those types of "bulges" are certainly not of excessive pressure for that gun. I wouldn't consider that bulged -- although others do and won't shoot out of a Glock barrel for that reason. I personally would not shoot a load in a KKM barrel that I deemed to be unsafe in a Glock barrel.

.

Just not true. I have fired a lot of rounds in a stock G20 bbl, Delta10 & 1006 over the years, none of my brass has any bulge what so ever. So if low pressure loads are bulging the brass, then something is wrong w/ the bbl. Bulged brass, any caliber, is unacceptable risk for little to no gain IMO.:dunno:

F106 Fan
08-31-2012, 07:19
This thread is a cautionary tale. I would bet that the OP's load data from Hornady is from a longer barrel and also from a test barrel not a real gun. Trying to get the same velocity as the book in G20 is just asking for trouble like the OP experienced.

According to Hornady 8th Ed., the gun was a Colt Delta Elite with a 5", 1 in 16" twist barrel using a Hornady case and Winchester WLP primer.

The Glock barrel is 4.61" - not a lot of difference but still, the muzzle velocities would be lower with the Glock.

Richard

Colorado4Wheel
08-31-2012, 08:46
According to Hornady 8th Ed., the gun was a Colt Delta Elite with a 5", 1 in 16" twist barrel using a Hornady case and Winchester WLP primer.

The Glock barrel is 4.61" - not a lot of difference but still, the muzzle velocities would be lower with the Glock.

Richard


Can you post the complete data?

pasky2112
08-31-2012, 08:59
Any of the brass look like this.

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm285/SDV10/10mmbulge1.jpg
Yeah! Those are the best! That way I can reload it with more powder b/c there is more case volume!!

dkf, You're joking, right?

I'll take some pics of the brass and we'll play a little game...no tricks.

Also, I'll post the book data I used for those that don't have the Hornady 7th 10mm auto 180 JHP AA#7 data.

dkf
08-31-2012, 09:13
Yeah! Those are the best! That way I can reload it with more powder b/c there is more case volume!!

dkf, You're joking, right?

I'll take some pics of the brass and we'll play a little game...no tricks.

Also, I'll post the book data I used for those that don't have the Hornady 7th 10mm auto 180 JHP AA#7 data.

Pipe down scooter. That was posted up in general glocking some time ago. If memory serves me right it was one of the Swamp Fox loadings at the Max that was shot in a Glock barrel. Those loads were only recommended to be shot in a more supported tighter barrel like a KKM.

pasky2112
08-31-2012, 09:24
For what it's worth, get you some Power Pistol, as 8.5gr gets you a tad over 1200 fps from a G20, and it's below book max. Great shooter too! Another thing, I personally have never got anywhere near claimed velocity with any Accurate Arms powder out of any cartridge.

There is often a rather large discrepancy between manufacturers data and 3rd party data. Always lean on the side of safety, it beats the pants off the alternative. Additionally, it's not uncommon for guys to work up loads in an aftermarket barrel that are really too hot to be honest, it's not an entirely safe habit to get into. You can get away with some things with an aftermarket bbl, but stay away from nuclear stuff in the stock setup.
I actually have a keg of PP and it's one of my fave's in .40's. I also like AA#5. So when I purchased BD for 10mm, I threw in some other powders I wanted to try while I was paying hazmat. So I got a pound of AA#7, Win231 (for .40 also) and CCI #300's. As much as I liked AA#5 for the .40, the data for AA#7 looked like it'd be a good choice for both .40 and 10mm. Prior to the KB, I loaded and shot almost the whole pound of AA#7 and had no chrono walls, unusually bulged brass for a glock stk bbl...any more than you'd see in factory loads. The only thing notable was that I read from multiple resources was that they saw flattened primers with only warm loads using AA#7. I saw the same thing in my starting mid-range loads. So, Against my better judgement, I noted them but didn't see anything else at the time I thought was a 'red flag' to stop. So, FWIW.... I agree w/ you 100% about PP. And i will use it for 10mm and, of course, .40's.

Colorado4Wheel
08-31-2012, 09:31
Power Pistol is a lot Flashier then AA#7. #7 takes a lot more grs of powder to have the same velocity as PP. They both fill the case pretty well. I would not use PP inside. Way to loud and too much flash. BUT, I hate how fast #7 disappears as I am loading with it compared to PP. BOTH have the same max velocity in my analysis of load book data and then testing it over a chrono. Even if you find a source that says one is better then the other it's just not a big enough difference to worry about. Other powders are better for getting max velocity out of 10mm. 1150fps is no joke in a G20 and that is where I stopped. Anything much past that you are pushing the limits. As evidence by your KB at 1250fps.

pasky2112
08-31-2012, 09:39
Pipe down scooter. That was posted up in general glocking some time ago. If memory serves me right it was one of the Swamp Fox loadings at the Max that was shot in a Glock barrel. Those loads were only recommended to be shot in a more supported tighter barrel like a KKM.
I thought it was funny... but I still want to show what my brass looks like b/c i think didn't make it clear of what I meant by 'usual glock bulge'.

- Scooter :-)

SARDG
08-31-2012, 09:48
...The Glock barrel is 4.61" - not a lot of difference but still, the muzzle velocities would be lower with the Glock.

Richard
Doesn't Glock's polygonal rifling lead to higher velocities for a given barrel length?

F106 Fan
08-31-2012, 09:51
Doesn't Glock's polygonal rifling lead to higher velocities for a given barrel length?

That's a good point! I have no idea. I wonder if there is a pressure difference for a given load in a Glock barrel versus, say, the Colt Delta Elite that Hornady used to test the load.

That might be another reason to stay with mid-range loads.

Richard

dkf
08-31-2012, 09:57
I thought it was funny... but I still want to show what my brass looks like b/c i think didn't make it clear of what I meant by 'usual glock bulge'.

- Scooter :-)

Post up some pics, I like pics.:wavey:

That sign off made me.:rofl::supergrin:

Colorado4Wheel
08-31-2012, 09:58
Doesn't Glock's polygonal rifling lead to higher velocities for a given barrel length?

Read the original post. I edited to the important points.

I was working up a load from the Hornady 7th guide... trying to get 180g MG JHP's to 1200fps with:

EDIT

With 10 rnds in mag, I fired the first rnd @ 1253 fps. Brass case-head was .433" w/ flattened primer BUT didn't hit target (paper plate @ 15y)...I'm not THAT bad.
Case had usual Glock bulge for hot rnd out of stk bbl...no smiles or other chamber lines noted.
Fired rnd 2. Same results but 1220 fps... no rnd on target, either. The ejected case was in same condition as first. At this point, what was on my mind is why the heck was I not hitting a freakin' 8" target @ 15yds!

EDIT

After I checked out all the G20 frame/slide/bbl/RSA parts for anomalies, I (maybe foolishly), fired a factory HDY 155g XTP that was in my 'carry mag'. I hit target @ POA at the expected speed of around 1300 fps. I collected everything, packed up and went home to my family, thank God.






Sarge,

1) He was trying to get 1200fps and he got 1250fps in a shorter barrel gun.
2) Known good factory ammo with a much lighter bullet (155gr) only does 1300fps in his gun.
3) Guns really vary. You need to get a safe baseline as to what you can expect and not try and cross that threshold no mater what the data says "you should get".

I would be willing to work up a load using the exact components in the manual to max. But when you are mixing and matching primers, brass and bullets you need to be conservative. Not just shoot for a velocity because the book said you can do it.

Colorado4Wheel
08-31-2012, 10:02
http://www.hornady.com/store/10mm-155-gr-HP-XTP/

They list the ammo as 1265fps out of a 5 inch barrel.

F106 Fan
08-31-2012, 10:07
Can you post the complete data?

Test Conditions:
Handgun: Colt Delta Elite
Barrel: 5", 1 in 16" twist
Case: Hornady
Primer: Winchester WLP
Bullet Diameter: 0.400"
Maximum C.O.L: 1.260"
Max. Case Length: 0.992"
Case Trim Length: 0.987"

Load:
Bullet: HP-XTP
C.O.L: 1.260"
Powder: AA-7
9.3 gr -> 950 fps MIN
9.8 gr -> 1000 fps
10.4 gr -> 1050 fps
10.9 gr -> 1100 fps
11.4 gr -> 1150 fps
12.0 gr -> 1200 fps MAX

Throughout the range, 0.5 gr (more or less) yields an additional 50 fps. The curve certainly hasn't flattened out.

Hm... :dunno:

Any chance the gun fired out of battery?

Richard

pasky2112
08-31-2012, 10:10
Just for kicks, and to try to show what I saw when looking at cases before the KB, I took a photo comparison of 4 cases shot that day in my G20. 3 are reloads ( one is pretty obvious :whistling: ) and 1 of the grp is a factory load right out of the box.

L --> R = #1-->#4 Which is which?

Now tell me glocks don't bulge cases and I'd have to question whether you've ever shot a stk glock bbl b4. (flame guard on)
To be clear, I'm not trying to be pissy here. Just want to clarify what I meant by 'usual bulge' and what it means in terms of signs of dangerous pressure.

Colorado4Wheel
08-31-2012, 10:23
Now tell me glocks don't bulge cases and I'd have to question whether you've ever shot a stk glock bbl b4. (flame guard on

Those are expanded not bulged. They will probably drop right in the factory barrel and you can probably spin them in the barrel. Try it.

If they don't spin they have a little guppie. You can't see it well in the picture. You may see it different because you have held them and see it better and know what to look for in the picture. But to me those look OK except the primers look flat but it's not easy to see.

That is just how Glock 10mm brass looks. A little barrel shaped.

BTW, I would guess you had a overcharge. Maybe not a double charge but a overcharge.

Are you using a Progressive Press?

SARDG
08-31-2012, 10:29
Read the original post. I edited to the important points.



Sarge,

1) He was trying to get 1200fps and he got 1250fps in a shorter barrel gun.
2) Known good factory ammo with a much lighter bullet (155gr) only does 1300fps in his gun.
3) Guns really vary. You need to get a safe baseline as to what you can expect and not try and cross that threshold no mater what the data says "you should get".

I would be willing to work up a load using the exact components in the manual to max. But when you are mixing and matching primers, brass and bullets you need to be conservative. Not just shoot for a velocity because the book said you can do it.
I think I read the original post, but that info wouldn't indicate that Glock barrels are in fact faster (or slower) - especially with all the other variables. Am I missing something?

SARDG (Search and Rescue Dog, USCG) ;)

Colorado4Wheel
08-31-2012, 10:33
I think I read the original post, but that info wouldn't indicate that Glock barrels are in fact faster (or slower) - especially with all the other variables. Am I missing something?

SARDG (Search and Rescue Dog, USCG) ;)

Nope. It just varies.

pasky2112
08-31-2012, 10:40
Test Conditions:
Handgun: Colt Delta Elite
Barrel: 5", 1 in 16" twist
Case: Hornady
Primer: Winchester WLP
Bullet Diameter: 0.400"
Maximum C.O.L: 1.260"
Max. Case Length: 0.992"
Case Trim Length: 0.987"

Load:
Bullet: HP-XTP
C.O.L: 1.260"
Powder: AA-7
9.3 gr -> 950 fps MIN
9.8 gr -> 1000 fps
10.4 gr -> 1050 fps
10.9 gr -> 1100 fps
11.4 gr -> 1150 fps
12.0 gr -> 1200 fps MAX

Throughout the range, 0.5 gr (more or less) yields an additional 50 fps. The curve certainly hasn't flattened out.

Hm... :dunno:

Any chance the gun fired out of battery?

Richard
It was the end of my session so the chamber wasn't exactly clean. But I only fired maybe 100 rnds. I always rack a round from mag into chamber and NEVER drop one in manually via locked open slide. I purposefully 'drop' the slide as a habit and never 'ride' it. (pet peave) The remainder of the rnds that were in my mag have unchanged OAL. I mentioned before, I use a Redding Comp Die and i measured ea rnd individually for OAL before accepting it, in this case b/c I was working with max load. I used a Dillon 10mm Case Gage, also.
So, I guess there's a chance but I wouldn't know unless it was obvious after I racked the slide and looked at it. I typically look to make sure and also look when the slide stop kicks in on empy mag. After the KB, the case was stuck in the chamber and partially OOB. Looking back, I'd guess maybe 1/4"? I was still pretty stunned and was concerned about the pistol damage, at the time...after I checked that I wasn't damaged, of course. ;)
FWIW, the blown case came out of the chamber pretty easily when i racked the slide.

This is part of the thing I'm trying to get in my noob head...how can a load go from usual case bulging to blowing without showing other case signs in between from previously fired rnds in the same batch?? I have to conclude that you're not always going to see 'smiles' when you're red-lining. But if you do, stop, obviously.

F106 Fan
08-31-2012, 10:42
I think I read the original post, but that info wouldn't indicate that Glock barrels are in fact faster (or slower) - especially with all the other variables. Am I missing something?

SARDG (Search and Rescue Dog, USCG) ;)

Maybe... The load was supposed to deliver 1200 fps and we all suspect that load data is optimistic in terms of delivered velocity. So, how come the load actually delivered 1250 fps? To do that, based on the 0.5 gr per 50 fps curve from the Hornady manual, there was at least 12.5 gr of powder in the case. Probably more because the manual probably overstated the velocity in the first place. So, maybe 13.0 gr... Maybe even more if the velocity vs charge curve flattens out after 12.0 gr.

I'm just guessing... Maybe the type of barrel accounts for the extra velocity. But then, is there more, or less, friction?

And what happened to the bullets. More specifically, why didn't they hit the target? Shooter error? Sure, that is always possible - especially if I'm driving. But still, all the other rounds hit the target. Why were only these loads off the target?

Richard

dkf
08-31-2012, 10:45
Just for kicks, and to try to show what I saw when looking at cases before the KB, I took a photo comparison of 4 cases shot that day in my G20. 3 are reloads ( one is pretty obvious :whistling: ) and 1 of the grp is a factory load right out of the box.

L --> R = #1-->#4 Which is which?

Now tell me glocks don't bulge cases and I'd have to question whether you've ever shot a stk glock bbl b4. (flame guard on)
To be clear, I'm not trying to be pissy here. Just want to clarify what I meant by 'usual bulge' and what it means in terms of signs of dangerous pressure.

Kinda hard to tell exactly from the pic but the left 3 look like the spent .40 brass I have. Sort of a tiny "bulge" around where the feed ramp is.

I would say you either had a small over charge or bad piece of brass. Possibly that piece of brass had a defect or improper heat treat from manufacturing.

pasky2112
08-31-2012, 11:11
Those are expanded not bulged. They will probably drop right in the factory barrel and you can probably spin them in the barrel. Try it.

If they don't spin they have a little guppie. You can't see it well in the picture. You may see it different because you have held them and see it better and know what to look for in the picture. But to me those look OK except the primers look flat but it's not easy to see.

That is just how Glock 10mm brass looks. A little barrel shaped.

BTW, I would guess you had a overcharge. Maybe not a double charge but a overcharge.

Are you using a Progressive Press?
Respectfully, maybe it's semantics but when I see a small area sticking out further then the rest of the case, i call it a bulge. When the case expands uniformly, respectively to the chamber, I call that expansion. Please, I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm just try to portray what i see.
Now I can DEFINITELY see what you mean by 'bulge' looking at the pic dkf posted earlier! But I've never had anything even close to that come out of any firearm of mine...it'd scare the S#!t outta me! ;-)

I've never had a fired case that wasn't resized fit into my chambers...factory or reload...pistol or rifle.

I thought they looked OK, too. That's why I didn't stop. Stopping with a case bulge as you defined it would be a no brainer. Also, yes, I use a Dillon 550b. But I use it almost like a single stage when I start new loads. That is, I stop and check the rnd at ea stage...measure powder, check OAL after seating and check case mouth diameter before/after i crimp on a FCD. I crimp enough to take out the flare and prevent setback. I believe I mentioned it in a prev post, but I pull the first few rnds to check my crimp. I've done the same routine for 1000's of rifle and pistol rnds since I learned it.

Thanks again,

- Dave

Gunnut 45/454
08-31-2012, 11:15
pasky2112
The easiest way to prevent a KB? Don't chase the velocity demon! Why must you achieve 1200 fps? I've been a reload for 3 decades. And I gaurentee you the best preformance and accuracy is almost always achieved below Max charges! Do not reload to get max velocity - go for performance and accuracy and you'll not have a KB !:whistling: Answer this simple question what would that load do at 1200fps that a load of 1100-1150 fps wouldn't do?:supergrin:

pasky2112
08-31-2012, 11:23
I have a hard time seeing a load published in the Hornady manual, if followed, blowing up a gun.

Also, the OP's belief that the previously fired rounds having the "typical Glock bulge" being "normal" makes me a little leary of his whole approach to reloading. Brass bulging is the last step before brass blowing out, which is what we have here. Regardless of the cause or the gun, bulged brass is a "clue" to stop what you are doing. In all my years reloading, I have only had two situations that produced bulged brass and once recognized, those situations were stopped.
I agree with you and Fred about the case bulging. What I call a bulge isn't appearantly what most of you would see as a bulge. See the pics i posted for clarification...hopefully. I'm not exactly a pro photog ;)

pasky2112
08-31-2012, 11:29
pasky2112
The easiest way to prevent a KB? Don't chase the velocity demon! Why must you achieve 1200 fps? I've been a reload for 3 decades. And I gaurentee you the best preformance and accuracy is almost always achieved below Max charges! Do not reload to get max velocity - go for performance and accuracy and you'll not have a KB !:whistling: Answer this simple question what would that load do at 1200fps that a load of 1100-1150 fps wouldn't do?:supergrin:
Agreed...100%. I got caught up in the 'muscle car' syndrome...Chuck Yeager, etc. My mistake. Live and learn...thankfully. Hopefully, for some time, others will see this thread and it will stop them from making a mistake. That's why i mostly bared it all out here.

Thank you,

- Dave

F106 Fan
08-31-2012, 12:25
Also, yes, I use a Dillon 550b. But I use it almost like a single stage when I start new loads. That is, I stop and check the rnd at ea stage...measure powder, check OAL after seating and check case mouth diameter before/after i crimp on a FCD. I crimp enough to take out the flare and prevent setback. I believe I mentioned it in a prev post, but I pull the first few rnds to check my crimp. I've done the same routine for 1000's of rifle and pistol rnds since I learned it.

Thanks again,

- Dave

So, were you weighing each charge and filling the cases with a powder funnel or were you using the Dillon powder measure?

Today I trickled some .308 loads. The Uniflow would throw 41.7 to 41.9 ALMOST every time and then it would throw 42.3. Just once in a while.

I would toss the heavy charge back in the powder measure and start over. But, in every case, I trickled the charge up to 42.2 gr. This was with IMR 4064 - a stick powder.

If you were using a powder measure there are any of a number of things that could go wrong. However, AA-7 is a spherical powder so it should meter pretty well.

Richard

fredj338
08-31-2012, 12:57
Maybe... The load was supposed to deliver 1200 fps and we all suspect that load data is optimistic in terms of delivered velocity. So, how come the load actually delivered 1250 fps? To do that, based on the 0.5 gr per 50 fps curve from the Hornady manual, there was at least 12.5 gr of powder in the case. Probably more because the manual probably overstated the velocity in the first place. So, maybe 13.0 gr... Maybe even more if the velocity vs charge curve flattens out after 12.0 gr.

Richard
You can't realy extrapolate vel accurately in regards to powder charge. Most powders will not show a linear vel increase as the pressures increase. It may be diff from say 11.5-12gr vs 12-12.5gr. That can be a dangerous assumption depending on powders.

fredj338
08-31-2012, 12:58
I agree with you and Fred about the case bulging. What I call a bulge isn't appearantly what most of you would see as a bulge. See the pics i posted for clarification...hopefully. I'm not exactly a pro photog ;)

If you can see it, it's a case bulge. Again, 1000s of 10mm loaded & shot, some hot, never a case bulge. If Glock's are that sloppy, how much accuracy can you expect from a stock bbl?

pasky2112
08-31-2012, 13:14
So, were you weighing each charge and filling the cases with a powder funnel or were you using the Dillon powder measure?

Today I trickled some .308 loads. The Uniflow would throw 41.7 to 41.9 ALMOST every time and then it would throw 42.3. Just once in a while.

I would toss the heavy charge back in the powder measure and start over. But, in every case, I trickled the charge up to 42.2 gr. This was with IMR 4064 - a stick powder.

If you were using a powder measure there are any of a number of things that could go wrong. However, AA-7 is a spherical powder so it should meter pretty well.

Richard
I did weigh ea charge on my <$100 scale. ;-) I had noticed quite some time ago that if I rammed up the press (550b) but didn't throw a charge...(maybe because i was adjusting another die), the next charge would often throw heavy...from +.1g-.5g depending on the powder and how many times I rammed the press. Personally, I feel this is a design flaw but whatever. As a result of this discovery, I dump the following 3 throws back into the hopper and wiegh the 4th, which usually has the desired charge +/- .1g. In this case, if it weighed 11.9g-12.0g, I'd funnel it back into the case, seat a bullet and move on. Anything else I dumped and recharged. I found AA#7 does meter nicely, though. But I follow this procedure, irregardless.

That said, at this point, I'm not going to disagree with the possibility that one 'got by me' and could possibly have been .1g-.5g heavy. I'll go under oath saying I weighed them in the above manner. But we all know how that goes. I'm guessing this may have be what pushed to KB, in conjunction w/ the other possibilities already mentioned previously. (data cross-checking, frequent scale calib., etc.)

F106 Fan
08-31-2012, 13:23
You can't realy extrapolate vel accurately in regards to powder charge. Most powders will not show a linear vel increase as the pressures increase. It may be diff from say 11.5-12gr vs 12-12.5gr. That can be a dangerous assumption depending on powders.

But in this specific case, as I posted above, there is almost exactly a 50 fps change in velocity per 0.5 gr change in charge from 950 fps to 1200 fps. In the progression, there are a couple of 0.6 gr changes (vs 0.5 gr) which means there is a little roundoff going on. For all practical purposes, over the range of 950 .. 1200 fps, the curve is linear. But that's for this powder with the HP-XTP bullet as tested by Hornady in a Delta Elite with 5" barrel.

Other loads will vary all over the place...

Richard

pasky2112
08-31-2012, 13:34
If you can see it, it's a case bulge. Again, 1000s of 10mm loaded & shot, some hot, never a case bulge. If Glock's are that sloppy, how much accuracy can you expect from a stock bbl?
I respect that, but I've never shot a round, factory load or otherwise, out of a factory glock bbl that didn't have the case shape, as you describe. Yet, the Glocks I've shot were all been plenty accurate for me. Certainly no less accurate than any other manuf. stock setup apple/apples. Frankly, I have .40 cases shot through nothing but my stock G23 that have been reloaded 15x's. They still reload fine and shoot to POA...whether that's where I'm looking or not. ;) maybe a thread on chamber vs. barrel regarding accuracy would be an interesting topic.

Colorado4Wheel
08-31-2012, 13:56
If you can see it, it's a case bulge. Again, 1000s of 10mm loaded & shot, some hot, never a case bulge. If Glock's are that sloppy, how much accuracy can you expect from a stock bbl?

Enough to kill a bear at 25yds. That is what a 10mm is for right ;)

Colorado4Wheel
08-31-2012, 14:00
I had noticed quite some time ago that if I rammed up the press (550b) but didn't throw a charge...(maybe because i was adjusting another die), the next charge would often throw heavy...from +.1g-.5g depending on the powder and how many times I rammed the press. Personally, I feel this is a design flaw but whatever.

Any volume measure is at risk of having a charge get heavier when you bump the machine. THEY ALL share that characteristic. When the open chamber is under a big hopper of powder bumping the hopper makes it settle into the chamber.

Colorado4Wheel
08-31-2012, 14:01
You can't realy extrapolate vel accurately in regards to powder charge. Most powders will not show a linear vel increase as the pressures increase. It may be diff from say 11.5-12gr vs 12-12.5gr. That can be a dangerous assumption depending on powders.

I always chart the velocity vs charge when working things up. If it gets non-linear/erratic I am done and back it down.

pasky2112
08-31-2012, 14:39
This is the Enos scale I have - but it's really backed up with frequent calibration, check weights, and a RCBS Chargemaster. Call me paranoid.
http://brianenos.com/store/be.scale_hp.html

I also check brass and primers frquently - but Federal primers always look flattened to me, so I've asked a few of our club's reloaders who have examined my shot brass and they all claim there is no problem.
Hi SARDG. Thanks for helping to protect my state...and country. Godspeed.
Quick question... when you say you check your primers and brass, what exactly do you mean? Are you just referring to them being seated correctly while loading or flattened/cratered after firing? Just curious if there was something else you do for safety measures. Also, I was thinking handguns..not rifles. Brass work in rifle loads...whole 'nother world. ;)

Thanks again!

- Dave

Colorado4Wheel
08-31-2012, 15:01
For the money the Dillon Scale is way nicer then that one. I had that one, it didn't work. Got my money back. But that thing feels cheap and flimsy compared to a Dillon.

WiskyT
08-31-2012, 15:15
I agree with you and Fred about the case bulging. What I call a bulge isn't appearantly what most of you would see as a bulge. See the pics i posted for clarification...hopefully. I'm not exactly a pro photog ;)

Agreed, those cases wouldn't have stopped me either. FWIW, I don't consider those cases "bulged". The one posted by DFK is what I think of when people say "bulged".

pasky2112
08-31-2012, 16:39
This whole thing about observing flattened primers but continuing to shoot that load just baffles me. I have established sub-max loads that I shoot for my calibers and I still habitually pick up the cases and examine them while at the range. I don't expect to see anything worrisome but there is zero doubt in my mind that I'd unload the gun and put it away if I saw anything out of the ordinary. Why ignore a sign that you knew meant trouble?

I don't ask this to be argumentative or to scold. I just tend to be curious about human behavior.
yeah. I understand where you're coming from.
I addressed this earlier... some handloaders discussed what they described a phenomenon of AA#7 flattening primers even in sub-max loads. Normally, I would have stopped with a flattened or cratered primer... yes.

Anyone else heard of this?

SARDG
08-31-2012, 16:48
Hi SARDG. Thanks for helping to protect my state...and country. Godspeed.
Quick question... when you say you check your primers and brass, what exactly do you mean? Are you just referring to them being seated correctly while loading or flattened/cratered after firing? Just curious if there was something else you do for safety measures. Also, I was thinking handguns..not rifles. Brass work in rifle loads...whole 'nother world. ;)

Thanks again!

- Dave
Thanks Dave. I don't load rifle yet, but expect to get a 'round tuit' eventually. I've been gathering Coast Guard 7.62 LC brass at the range for some time.

I currently load 9 mil and .45 with a 650, but have quick change kits and dies for .38 Spcl and 10mm. Ergo, my interest in this thread.

I don't do any special checking while loading except eyeing each powder charge. And I have the Dillon Powder Check system which is mostly good for noticing no charge or a double charge. Because I began loading ONLY to produce accurate, powder-puff match ammo, I am a bit picky (anal) and spot-check every 20th round or so for primer seating, OAL, crimp, gauge, and gross weight (which gives me a ballpark of correct powder weight.) With my 9 mil recipe, a double charge wouldn't fit in the case, but I don't want - or really expect - no-powder loads. Any real cartridge check comes later with a guage check, and then when thet're boxed I can see and feel out-of-place primers. I use Starline brass and MG bullets - sound familiar?

The brass and primer check I was reffering to was after the round was shot, looking for signs of anything being wrong or on the edge of being wrong. I've always thought the Federal primers I use look a little flat, but they're soft and others assure me there is no problem. I've also never had any kind of bulge in the 9s and spent brass from my G17 and 34 falls right back into the case gauge after being fired. Not exactly so with my .45s and G30 - but nothing unusual.

Unlike you however, I was pushing the lower limits of a charge - what can I load to be accurate, still make 125 PF, run the slide 100%, and be a soft shooter!

On another note... I used to get close to your neck of the woods frequently for Space Shuttle Launch patrols throughout the year on the Banana River, but we all know what's happened to US Manned Space Flight. :upeyes:

Taterhead
08-31-2012, 16:54
Just not true. I have fired a lot of rounds in a stock G20 bbl, Delta10 & 1006 over the years, none of my brass has any bulge what so ever. So if low pressure loads are bulging the brass, then something is wrong w/ the bbl. Bulged brass, any caliber, is unacceptable risk for little to no gain IMO.:dunno:

I completely agree with the part in bold.

I don't want to belabor the point, but we must be talking about different things. And I am certainly not advocating that it is safe to shoot loads that produce abnormally-bulged brass.

Glocks DO have a distinctive expansion pooch ("bulge") that you can see with your eyes (or at least I can since my eyes are still hanging in there -- for now :rofl:). That is normal. 9, 40, 10, whatever.

I can pick up a piece of range brass and usually tell if it has been shot in a Glock without looking at the primer strike because of that distinctive little bulge. There is a bit of asymmetrical expansion about the pressure band. That will be different than your 1006 or Delta. The photos posted by the OP show what I am talking about clearly. It is a normal for a Glock. It is not unsafe.

SARDG
08-31-2012, 16:56
For the money the Dillon Scale is way nicer then that one. I had that one, it didn't work. Got my money back. But that thing feels cheap and flimsy compared to a Dillon.
Have never seen, used or even fondled the Dillon, so can't personally compare. I can say that the RCBS 1500 (I have the combo) seems beefier than the BE High Performance, but I've never had a problem with the BE.

shotgunred
08-31-2012, 17:27
I actually have a keg of PP and it's one of my fave's in .40's. I also like AA#5. So when I purchased BD for 10mm, I threw in some other powders I wanted to try while I was paying hazmat. So I got a pound of AA#7, Win231 (for .40 also) and CCI #300's. As much as I liked AA#5 for the .40, the data for AA#7 looked like it'd be a good choice for both .40 and 10mm. Prior to the KB, I loaded and shot almost the whole pound of AA#7 and had no chrono walls, unusually bulged brass for a glock stk bbl...any more than you'd see in factory loads. The only thing notable was that I read from multiple resources was that they saw flattened primers with only warm loads using AA#7. I saw the same thing in my starting mid-range loads. So, Against my better judgement, I noted them but didn't see anything else at the time I thought was a 'red flag' to stop. So, FWIW.... I agree w/ you 100% about PP. And i will use it for 10mm and, of course, .40's.

As I stated earlier I am concerned with accuracy not velocity. Your paper target is never going to notice the difference. I know that a lot of guys think that a 10mm is close to an atomic bomb. But they are not. Unless you are trying to make your own BEAR load there is no reason to keep pushing it. The lower the pressure the more "mistakes" you can make without blowing your gun up. However if you want to push your loads a bit you are much better off using longshot than #7.

Secondly looking at your pictures I would hazard a guess that part of your problem was you were over crimping.

TX Archer
08-31-2012, 19:06
yeah. I understand where you're coming from.
I addressed this earlier... some handloaders discussed what they described a phenomenon of AA#7 flattening primers even in sub-max loads. Normally, I would have stopped with a flattened or cratered primer... yes.

Anyone else heard of this?
Thanks for taking it as it was intended. So what flattens primers? Pressure, right? How could the pressure from AA #7 flatten the primer but still remain at a safer level than another powder that did the same thing? It just sounds like myth to me, luckily a myth that isn't too widespread.

SBray
08-31-2012, 19:22
pasky2112,

I am new to reloading handgun ammo, so I am not familiar with, "crimped with Lee FCD".

Since it has been established that you were probably at the max (or maybe slightly over) powder charge, could you have possibly over crimped that failed round causing the KB?

Steve

Colorado4Wheel
08-31-2012, 20:50
10mm has slightly thicker case so it is possible to swage the bullet and reduce neck tension in the process. I measured it with my FCD. Also Lee's basically instructions for the FCD lead to too much crimp. So you do have that as a possibility. Especially if you did the "add a complete turn" thing.

F106 Fan
08-31-2012, 22:23
The best way to close up the case mouth on straight wall cartridges is with a taper crimp die. The Lee FCD is not highly regarded around here when it is applied to pistol cartridges. The rifle version is somewhat more useful.

If your sizing die is adjusted properly, there is nothing for the body of the Lee FCD to do and whatever crimp it may apply is not necessary.

Just close up the case mouth and don't dent the bullet in any way.

Richard

Taterhead
09-01-2012, 14:42
Thanks for taking it as it was intended. So what flattens primers? Pressure, right? How could the pressure from AA #7 flatten the primer but still remain at a safer level than another powder that did the same thing? It just sounds like myth to me, luckily a myth that isn't too widespread.


The primer condition from the photos is consistent with what I have observed using Accurate no. 7 & 9 (A7 & A9) accross a wide variety of charge weights. Flattened primers might be an indication of excessive pressure but not always.

I and others have noticed that with LPPs, A7 & A9 seem to flatten primers a bit extra no matter the charge. It is subtle, but a bit more than what I have observed with other powders. GT user Yondering on another thread hypothesized that because A7 & A9 granules are so tiny, they work down through the flash hole and completely fill the primer area voids with powder. Seems to make sense: more compustibles in the same volume of area could cause more pressure on the primer itself. I am not sure.

Whatever the reason, I have done a couple dozen different workups with various lots of A7 & A9 and this seems to consistently be what I have observed. Starting charges to max charges: primers are a little bit flatter with these powders than with others. They look just like the 2nd from the right case in the OP's photo.

Gokyo
09-02-2012, 00:03
IIRC the max load for No7 as stated in the Sierra reloading manual for 180 grain bullet is os slightly less then 11 grains.

If you are throwing 12 grains of AA#7 I think you got lucky it was not worse.

hey wait a minute is this a Joke post?

dstanley66
09-02-2012, 08:54
I just started reloading, 20 rds. of 9mm so for and all are smaller than mouse farts til I learn alot more. Have a couple books, but this thread and others like it is also valuable info. in helping us newbies.

dla
09-02-2012, 10:09
Seems funny to me. After 100+ posts, I hope somebody realizes that a guppied case IS a an over-pressure sign - regardless of the load.

WiskyT
09-02-2012, 10:15
Seems funny to me. After 100+ posts, I hope somebody realizes that a guppied case IS a an over-pressure sign - regardless of the load.

It could be the pics, you may see them better on your monitor, but I don't see guppies in the OP's pics. His initial description sounded like they were guppied, but after seeing the pics, they look normal to me.

blastfact
09-02-2012, 14:25
I truly hate to hear of this KB. :( I'm glad the OP is OK. :)

I have a G20 and have never fired a round down the worthless stock tube. Glocks would be much better pistols if you could option out of having to buy there worthless barrels with the pistols. I've seen enough Glocked brass to last me a friggin life time. With most of that being retail ammo. The thought of reloading much less pushing max reloads in a Glock tube is the sort of thing Hollywood could make horror flicks out of.

My G20 has a 5.15" LW barrel in it. Feeds and chambers fantastic! Don't need any of Glock's sloppy chamber characteristics to ensure the pistol is reliable. Much less there awful support.

I shoot max loads and above with my G20 and LW barrel. Brass always looks great! I don't get concerned over flatten primers. I do get concerned... Very concerned over primers with no dent in them or flowing back into the striker slot in a Glock. Your then running up against a very big problem. And if you have a Glock pistol or load in said pistols that swipes the primer you got a big problem.

I do all my initial work ups with Fed primers. There soft and easy to read. Once I get in the neighborhood I then switch to Rem, CCI or Win primers for the fine tune. And stock up on those rounds.

And for goodness sake's folks. Get a set of check weights. This is so important. I don't care what style or price range your scale or scales are using. You have to have check weights and use them. They will save your bacon when you start pushing and going nuclear! They help to keep your scales and your self honest.

As for the load and powder? I've seen AA7 do some strange things when you push it hard. Some strain gauge testing many years ago showed me some ugly 2nd and 3rd wave pressure spikes. It tended to go whacko when pushed. And i think the OP just experienced some of those whacko psi spikes in a useless OEM Glock Barrel.

Have Fun!

Colorado4Wheel
09-02-2012, 14:43
Just my opinion, but if you need to switch barrels your pushing things too hard.

pasky2112
09-02-2012, 15:15
The best way to close up the case mouth on straight wall cartridges is with a taper crimp die. The Lee FCD is not highly regarded around here when it is applied to pistol cartridges. The rifle version is somewhat more useful.

If your sizing die is adjusted properly, there is nothing for the body of the Lee FCD to do and whatever crimp it may apply is not necessary.

Just close up the case mouth and don't dent the bullet in any way.

Richard
The Lee FCD is a Taper Crimp, no?
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/289675/lee-carbide-factory-crimp-die-40-s-and-w-10mm-auto

Regarding the Crimp possibility...
I set up my crimp die to just take the flare out. When i first set it up, I pull the first few rounds after I get the flare out to make sure I, to the best of my knowledge, do not over crimp....e.g. >1-2 whacks, the ring dent I believe u are referring to and gouges or excess 'scratching'. When I started loading for 10mm, I backed my crimp die way off so that it wasn't doing anything. Then I gradually tightened it down until I could 'feel' it. I'd measure the case mouth dia. Repeat process until it measured .422-.423" and fit freely in my case gage. IMO, the Lee 'turn one...' generic instructions seemed...well...generic. I prefer things more precise.

To clear up the 'bulge', 'guppy', 'glocked brass' thing. Best I can put it is I see cases 'misshapen'??... near the base on one side vs. the other whenever I shoot out of my glock stk bbls...reloads AND factory, 10mm .40 .45 (as seen in the pic I posted).

BTW, the left one (#1) is the factory Hdy 155 JHP case I fired post-KB. It's primer doesn't look much diff than the other 2 intact cases, IMO. I realize the pic doesn't show the case head too well but that was kind of the point of the exercise. ;-)

Anyway, I don't see the "misshapen" cases in my AM bbls. I DO in stk Glock bbls. This, in my limited experience, is what I consider 'usual bulging' and what I meant in my orig post.

So, How else would one objectively measure an over crimped rnd? Why would I NOT crimp?? as someone suggested? The only rnds I don't crimp are my single-fire rifle rnds.

Thanks again,

- Dave

F106 Fan
09-02-2012, 15:25
The Lee FCD is a Taper Crimp, no?
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/289675/lee-carbide-factory-crimp-die-40-s-and-w-10mm-auto


No! The die is doing a lot of stuff including trying to swage the bullet diameter. There is absolutely no love for that die by the majority of people on this forum. It attempts to solve a problem that doesn't exist and creates some new ones while doing it. You just don't need it.

A taper crimp die is the proper way to get the flare out of the case mouth.


So, How else would one objectively measure an over crimped rnd? Why would I NOT crimp?? as someone suggested? The only rnds I don't crimp are my single-fire rifle rnds.


You want to straighten out the flare without swaging the bullet diameter. You don't want the case mouth to indent the bullet in any way.

You should crimp bullets that have a cannelure - particularly heavy recoil cartridges like .357 mag or .44 mag. You shouldn't crimp cartridges that headspace on the case mouth like .380, 9mm, .40 S&W, 10mm, .45 ACP. AFAIK, the story is the same for .357 SIG because SAAMI says the cartridge headspaces on the case mouth. I believe it really headspaces on the shoulder like every other bottle neck cartridge. In any event, no noticeable crimp. Just straighten out the case mouth.

You can use a lot of different dies to attempt a taper crimp. However, the taper crimp die is actually intended to slowly taper the case mouth and is much easier to get set up properly. Most other dies want to make a roll crimp and might be coerced into closing the case mouth but it will be highly dependent on case length.

There's just no reason to use the wrong die. Taper crimp dies don't cost all that much.

Richard

Colorado4Wheel
09-02-2012, 15:33
FCD is a post sizing die and a taper crimp die.

SBray
09-02-2012, 15:42
Richard,

I just want to confirm that the Dillion Crimp Die is a taper die, correct?

Since I got back into reloading handgun ammo, I have been using plated bullets and have come to the conclusion that I am never going to buy them again because it takes very little effort to over crimp them. Also, I just don't think there is any real saving in them over jacketed bullets.

In an effort to avoid over crimping, I just adjust the die down until I feel it touch the case and then turn the die down in about 1/8 of a turn and put the round in a case gauge, (to repeat this process) until it goes in without hanging up.

To double check, I take the round apart and check the bullet for crimp rings or scratches that would suggest it had been over crimped.

Steve

Colorado4Wheel
09-02-2012, 15:47
Dillon is a crimp die in pistol calibers. Roll in revolver calibers.

SBray
09-02-2012, 15:54
Dillon is a crimp die in pistol calibers. Roll in revolver calibers.

Thanks Steve

Taterhead
09-02-2012, 16:14
Just my opinion, but if you need to switch barrels your pushing things too hard.

100% agree!

F106 Fan
09-02-2012, 16:26
Richard,

I just want to confirm that the Dillion Crimp Die is a taper die, correct?


Yes although I got along for a long time with an RCBS taper crimp die.



Since I got back into reloading handgun ammo, I have been using plated bullets and have come to the conclusion that I am never going to buy them again because it takes very little effort to over crimp them. Also, I just don't think there is any real saving in them over jacketed bullets.



I tried them and have decided that if I need a jacketed bullet, I might as well use a real jacketed bullet. By edict, my grandson shoots ONLY jacketed bullets but I load lead for myself. So, I buy bullets from Percision Delta. They're not a lot more than plated and my loading manuals have data. I like printed data.


In an effort to avoid over crimping, I just adjust the die down until I feel it touch the case and then turn the die down in about 1/8 of a turn and put the round in a case gauge, (to repeat this process) until it goes in without hanging up.

To double check, I take the round apart and check the bullet for crimp rings or scratches that would suggest it had been over crimped.


Sounds right! I usually use a pair of dial calipers to ensure that the casemouth diamter seems reasonable and then I check a sample of rounds in a case gauge and, sometimes, in a barrel. I just like to check the results.

Richard

WiskyT
09-02-2012, 17:38
Plated bullets used to be a much cheaper alternative to jacketed bullets. They don't seem to be cheaper these days, so I wouldn't bother with them if I bought bullets, which I rarely do.

JuneyBooney
09-03-2012, 21:22
You loaded and fired max loads right off the bat in a new gun? You didn't work up prior? (every batch can be different) Did you size your new brass?

I would think that all the rounds should have been weighed for a new gun. Glad you didn't get hurt.

pasky2112
09-05-2012, 11:08
Those are expanded not bulged. They will probably drop right in the factory barrel and you can probably spin them in the barrel. Try it.

If they don't spin they have a little guppie. You can't see it well in the picture. You may see it different because you have held them and see it better and know what to look for in the picture. But to me those look OK except the primers look flat but it's not easy to see.

That is just how Glock 10mm brass looks. A little barrel shaped.

BTW, I would guess you had a overcharge. Maybe not a double charge but a overcharge.

Are you using a Progressive Press?
Steve,
I owe u an apology. I responded to your idea of spinning a fired case in my bbl by stating I'd never have even been able to fit one in the chamber in the first place. I was thinking case gage, not bbl. sorry :-(
So, I tried your suggestion. I CAN plop the fired cases in the chamber. They turn freely. It brings me back to my original thought that the cases looked normal. I believe an overcharge got by me, as a few have suggested.

Thanks a ton for all your input, everyone. I've learned a few things and I hope this thread is a cautionary tale for those looking to reach max loads and beyond.

- Dave

SBray
09-05-2012, 11:22
Steve,
I owe u an apology. I responded to your idea of spinning a fired case in my bbl by stating I'd never have even been able to fit one in the chamber in the first place. I was thinking case gage, not bbl. sorry :-(
So, I tried your suggestion. I CAN plop the fired cases in the chamber. They turn freely. It brings me back to my original thought that the cases looked normal. I believe an overcharge got by me, as a few have suggested.

Thanks a ton for all your input, everyone. I've learned a few things and I hope this thread is a cautionary tale for those looking to reach max loads and beyond.

- Dave

Dave,

Initially, I had reservations about suggesting the potential of your powder drop randomly throwing an even higher charge than you had setup. I did not want to assume that you had not measured each and every case since you were in the initial stages of testing your recipe. I think it is probably common for reloaders to figure that, since it threw 20 accurate charges, why would it throw one higher or lower.

Steve

Colorado4Wheel
09-05-2012, 11:25
Steve,
I owe u an apology. I responded to your idea of spinning a fired case in my bbl by stating I'd never have even been able to fit one in the chamber in the first place. I was thinking case gage, not bbl. sorry :-(
So, I tried your suggestion. I CAN plop the fired cases in the chamber. They turn freely. It brings me back to my original thought that the cases looked normal. I believe an overcharge got by me, as a few have suggested.

Thanks a ton for all your input, everyone. I've learned a few things and I hope this thread is a cautionary tale for those looking to reach max loads and beyond.

- Dave

Thanks, and I am glad you learned some stuff.

;)Could you PM Zombie Steve, Jack, Whisky and a couple others. Just so they know I was right. I would hate for them to miss it.;)

F106 Fan
09-05-2012, 13:10
I think it is probably common for reloaders to figure that, since it threw 20 accurate charges, why would it throw one higher or lower.


Which is a very good reason to stay 0.3 gr to 0.5 gr away from max. Leave a little room for powder measure variation.

Richard

SARDG
09-05-2012, 14:17
Which is a very good reason to stay 0.3 gr to 0.5 gr away from max. Leave a little room for powder measure variation.

Richard
Gee... recommended Min to rcommended Max... the spread on 320/124gr loads is sometimes .3gr to .5gr

F106 Fan
09-05-2012, 14:36
Gee... recommended Min to rcommended Max... the spread on 320/124gr loads is sometimes .3gr to .5gr

Sometimes that is exactly the case. But I still try to stay away from max. I don't use the V320 powder but even the other powders don't have much range. This is particularly true for pistol reloading.

But it seems to me if the load is at max and the powder measure hiccups, there is a possibility of a serious overcharge.

Richard

dkf
09-05-2012, 14:52
Gee... recommended Min to rcommended Max... the spread on 320/124gr loads is sometimes .3gr to .5gr

I stay away from powders like that.

SARDG
09-05-2012, 15:41
...But it seems to me if the load is at max and the powder measure hiccups, there is a possibility of a serious overcharge.

I stay away from powders like that.
Oh nuts... when I asked what Kool-Aid to drink everyone said blue 'cause Dillons are purrrfect and powder-throws are consistent and accurate. :faint: :)

...but a lot of people stay away from 320 - based more on price, than limited charge spread.

F106 Fan
09-05-2012, 16:29
Oh nuts... when I asked what Kool-Aid to drink everyone said blue 'cause Dillons are purrrfect and powder-throws are consistent and accurate. :faint: :)

...but a lot of people stay away from 320 - based more on price, than limited charge spread.

I think it may also be based on availability from the LGSs. They simply don't stock high $ powder. To even try VV powder you are practically forced to add it to a bulk order from somewhere like Powder Valley. And then there is that HazMat fee! You really can't buy just a pound to try it out.

So, I just ordered a pound of N540 for .308. Sierra calls it their accuracy load for the .308 175 gr BTHP. I'm in!

But I also bought 8# of IMR 4064, a pound of Varget, primers and some bullets. I need to spread that HazMat fee around.

I have been loading .45 ACP with 4.8 gr of 700-X since '82. I don't see any reason to change so I may never get to try VV powder in a pistol. But the most it could add to the cost of a reloaded round is about a penny. Two cents on the outside. When the bullet costs thirteen cents, who cares about another penny?

Richard

pasky2112
09-06-2012, 21:12
Thanks, and I am glad you learned some stuff.

;)Could you PM Zombie Steve, Jack, Whisky and a couple others. Just so they know I was right. I would hate for them to miss it.;)

I'd venture to say they know your always right, anyway! ;-) but I'll dot the T, anyway just for you. :-))




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