How can you fix a cold shot? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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I Shooter
08-30-2012, 01:03
Hi all.

I hope that you are all having a great day.

I was testing loads for a trip out west and found that my Encore don't like the first string of shots taken.

The first string was a old stand by load( 41gr of Reloader 22 ). This group will shoot around an inch most of the time in both of my 243 rifles. I use it to check that the scope is working and that nothing has changed. That string turned to a 2"group. My first thought was it is me. I was just a little off. The second string was better, same load and this time it was close to the inch I expected. So I went on with the load testing and all was well.

I found a load that would give me a half inch four shot group. So I gave up the shooting and went into the house to load up twenty rounds of the new load to see just how good it was. The load is 33.8gr of IMR 4895, CCI primer and 100gr Sierra Game King SP BT. That round runs about 2700 FPS. My thought was it was a good all around light load for paper or game.

I also loaded up a hunting load of 43.5gr of IMR 7828 SSC. With 100 gr Sierra Pro-Hunter SP FB. I use the Pro-Hunters in placae of the Nosler Partitions for testing because of the cost. That load gives me over 3000 FPS. I was getting groups around an inch with this load.

After loading the shells and doing some other stuff I went to bed and didn't clean the rifle. That is not like me at all, I always clean my rifles after use. I was tired and knew that I was going to use the next day.

The next day I shot the first string and got a .75 group then shot the second string that gave me .5 then the third was back to .75 or a little better.

I decided to clean the rifle and that is when I knew I had a problem. That string was off the top of the target only one of the shots hit the paper, the last one. The next string gave me a group of about .65 just above the bull. I was now out of the 4895 load and went to the 7828 load. I cleaned the rifle and got the same results, it put the first two shot about 2" high and the third about an inch high and the forth in the bull. Making about a 2.5" group. The next string was back to an inch.

In all testing I let the rifle cool down. All shots were taken from a rest. After cleaning the rifle is when I got the bad groups. The last test was I went into the house and got some Wolf ammo that I had and after cleaning the rifle I tried it and got a 6" line down the target that led to the bull. The next string gave me a 2" group that was all around the bull.

The rifle don't like a clean barrel. What do I do about the first cold bore shot? I have never not cleaned a rifle and put it away. Do I shoot a four or five shot string before going hunting? Is there a way to fix this?

I know this is a long read. I just didn't know how to explain it any other way. Thanks much for any help you can offer.

sig357fan
08-30-2012, 02:00
if I read your post correcly, your Encore in 243 shot good groups the next day, with no cleaning, even after sitting over night? but as soon as you cleaned it, your groups opened up?

is it possible that something in your cleaning procedure or something with your cleaning supplies are being left in the barrel after cleaning and "shot out" with the first couple rounds?

sig357fan

zippyhuntin
08-30-2012, 05:43
Simple solution. Foul the bore before you go hunting.
None of my hunting rifles get cleaned during the season. I run an oil rag on the outside after a day out and that's it.

APERS
08-30-2012, 07:21
It could have something to do with the oil you are using to clean the bore. A buddy of ours on the Sheriff Dept. will use ONLY Hoppes #9 on his Rem. 700 .308. He quit using CLP because it will have an effect on his cold bore shot. Something to do with it settling in the bore in an uneven matter I think he said was the reason.

Anyway, I started using only Hoppes #9 on Savage Model 10FP .308 and first shot is at point of aim @100 yds. Was having the same issue you are having before when using CLP after cleaning. Also, I dont clean it during deer season, after I have confirmed zero @ 100 yds.

Boxerglocker
08-30-2012, 07:21
Simple solution. Foul the bore before you go hunting.
None of my hunting rifles get cleaned during the season. I run an oil rag on the outside after a day out and that's it.

That's pretty much your answer...

I found that after cleaning, depending when I anticipate to shoot my rifle next determines how diligent I am on running the final clean dry patches through to remove the final traces or lube. I use Hoppes #9 followed by CLP. I always run a patch or two through when pulling it out for a group testing or prior to a match. In addition also have taken careful note on how far off zero my initial "cold bore" shot have been in the past to anticipate any correction if needed in a pinch. (my cold bore shot always seem to be at the 9 to 12 o'clock of zero, about 1/2 inch out, once fouled it goes right back to POA).
I'll add that I'm not a very anal about cleaning the barrels any of my firearms. My precision rifle a R700 SPS TAC in .223 gets the barrel scrubbed every few hundred rounds at best or if accuracy drops off.

SARDG
08-30-2012, 08:06
Simple solution. Foul the bore before you go hunting...
I'd also go with that. I shot .22 Indoor-Smallbore competition in high school a couple of years ago :) and the first thing we did on the sight-in stage at 'commence firing' was throw a couple of quick rounds downrange, off target to warm and foul the barrel... then check the sights.

F106 Fan
08-30-2012, 08:30
I found that after cleaning, depending when I anticipate to shoot my rifle next determines how diligent I am on running the final clean dry patches through to remove the final traces or lube.

I usually run a couple of oiled patches through the bore after cleaning with the intent to leave a lot of oil behind. When I pack up to go shooting, I run a bore snake through the bore to clean out the oil (and anything else).

I haven't started tracking the cold bore shot for my .308 Steyr SSG. Right now I'm shooting at 300 yards and if I do my part, the rifle will shoot into an 1-1/2" red dot (with a 6x scope, I might add!) but my shooting isn't always perfect so I'm not sure if I could tell the difference between a cold bore problem and a crappy trigger pull. Over the fall and winter, I plan to shoot a LOT of .308 rifle so I'll get a chance to evaluate this cold bore issue.

I really think the best idea is to fire a couple of fouling shots after cleaning the rifle and don't let the barrel get rusty. Not an easy task.

Only the first shot counts! It has to be dead on, every time. Sometimes there is just no opportunity for a second shot.

Richard

Three-Five-Seven
08-30-2012, 08:30
Last patch, or patch before next day of shooting, saturated with alcohol.

Then, be sure that density altitude hasn't changed since previous day (which it always does).

Hoser
08-30-2012, 10:07
Stop cleaning unless accuracy falls off.

I have two 243s and a 308 that hold under MOA out to 1,000 yards. I have not cleaned them in 6 months. The 308 has never been cleaned.

I Shooter
08-30-2012, 19:46
Hi all.

Thank you all for your information.

I had never given any thought that my cleaning practice could be causing the problem. I use Shooter's Choice to clean the barrel then use Kleen Bore Gun Conditioner to protect it. I am thinking the gun oil might be the problem. I will have to try an other brand and see if that fixes it. As far as not cleaning a barrel after using it, I can't do that. My Dad would chew me up one side then down the other for treating a firearm like that. He instilled that in me a long time ago. I lost him this past year and I still hear him telling me what to do. If changing gun oil don't work I will have to just make the first string of shots a day or so before a hunt then clean the rifle after the end of the hunt.

sig357fan you have it on the money. F 106 Fan I am with you. The first shot has to be on target. At 100 yards the bad groups would still be in the kill zone. At two hundred yards it could get iffy at 300 it would be a miss over the shoulder.

A guy I know is telling me to use Microlon Gun Juice. He tells me it will solve all my problems. I am going to give it a try. Have any of you tried it?

Isn't Hoppes #9 a gun cleaner? That would mean that you have no oil in the barrel. Meaning no protection from rust. I was always told that you should never shoot a dry barrel. Then the oil is burnt out after the first shot so the second or third shots are dry.

vafish
08-30-2012, 20:07
Simple solution. Foul the bore before you go hunting.
None of my hunting rifles get cleaned during the season. I run an oil rag on the outside after a day out and that's it.

+1

Many Target rifles don't like a spotless clean bore. I've seen rimfire Target rifles that need to shoot 50 shots before they settle down and shoot good groups.

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emtjr928
08-30-2012, 20:18
I'd also go with that. I shot .22 Indoor-Smallbore competition in high school a couple of years ago :) and the first thing we did on the sight-in stage at 'commence firing' was throw a couple of quick rounds downrange, off target to warm and foul the barrel... then check the sights.

I didn't know they had a "Muzzle Loader" in .22?

:innocent:

SARDG
08-30-2012, 20:30
I didn't know they had a "Muzzle Loader" in .22?

:innocent:
Yeah, and one-room school houses. :tongueout:

SARDG
08-30-2012, 20:37
...Many Target rifles don't like a spotless clean bore. I've seen rimfire Target rifles that need to shoot 50 shots before they settle down and shoot good groups.
I've heard that too... but in high school competition, that wasn't happening.

What we would frequently do with the sight-in target is take our first sight-in shot at the thumb tack holding the target. You knew it was going to be a good day when 3 or 4 targets fell downrange immediately after 'commence firing'. :supergrin:

F106 Fan
08-30-2012, 20:55
If changing gun oil don't work I will have to just make the first string of shots a day or so before a hunt then clean the rifle after the end of the hunt.


That's the way I would do it. Keep the gun clean and oiled and then foul the barrel before shooting for effect.


A guy I know is telling me to use Microlon Gun Juice. He tells me it will solve all my problems. I am going to give it a try. Have any of you tried it?


Haven't heard of it. I will have to look into it



Isn't Hoppes #9 a gun cleaner? That would mean that you have no oil in the barrel. Meaning no protection from rust. I was always told that you should never shoot a dry barrel. Then the oil is burnt out after the first shot so the second or third shots are dry.

Hoppe's #9 leaves an oil film to protect the barrel. That's why I always push a patch through before shooting. Or, I'll pull a bore snake through. Then again, I usually push a couple of oily patches through after I clean the rifles.

Richard

I Shooter
08-31-2012, 06:41
I went out last night and picked up a couple of gun oils and cleaners. I will let you know how it goes.

Boxerglocker
08-31-2012, 07:25
I went out last night and picked up a couple of gun oils and cleaners. I will let you know how it goes.

I believe you will find it has nothing to do with the actual cleaner / oil being use. More that what ever you do , maker sure you clean it out as much as possible prior to that first "cold" shot. I really like that using a alcohol soaked patch to final clean the bore prior idea.
I'm gonna test that one out myself.

Colorado4Wheel
08-31-2012, 10:10
Almost all alcohol has water in it. Especially the cheap stuff. If I was going to let the barrel sit for very long at all I would not use the 70% stuff at all. If you can find the 99% use that. If you can't go to the auto parts store and get the Iso Hot or whatever they call it to get moisture out of you gas tank. Nearly 100% alcohol.

Don't try and drink it, you will go blind.

I Shooter
08-31-2012, 15:00
Hi all.

I hope your day is going better than mine did.

First I tried the Microlon Gun Juice. It worked well. You have to fire ten shots and after each shot you run a patch through with this stuff on it. You could see the group getting tighter with each shot. I used the Wolf ammo that I had on hand for that. I ended up with a eight shot group that was inside 2" after tossing two fliers. The fliers made the group like 6". I think that they can be blamed on the ammo.

So after shooting the ten I cleaned the bore with the gun juice and shot a four shot group. It was looking really good the first two shot were side by side just below the bull then the third was up in the bull and the forth was half way between the bull and the first two shots. It ended up being a 1.75" group. I cleaned the barrel with Shooters choice and ran a patch with the Gun juice through it. Then fired a four shot group. It sucked. I was shooting at the target at the top and it didn't even hit the the paper. I moved to a lower target and saw that I was about 5" high from the bull the next two shots brought it down to an inch of the bull.

Using the Shooter choice must have cleaned out the gun juice. I cleaned the barrel with some Remington 40x bore cleaner and used the rem oil as directed and ended up with a group that was about the same as the last. Five inches high at the start and strung down to just above the bull. I then cleaned the barrel with Hoppe's Elite. No oil was used. The stuff foams up when you spray it on a patch and has a oily feel to it. I cleaned the barrel and the first two shots were just inside the bull and made one ragged hole then the third was .75" up and the last shot was1"to the left and .5" down from the first two. Now that could have been me pulling a shot. I don't know. I was not taking as much time as may be I should have for the shots, if you know what I mean.

The gun juice seemed to work well. The only draw back to it is you have to just use it. All so the cost, it is about $10.00 and oz. The Hoppe's Elite worked better than all of the others and gave the best group. The thing I really liked about it was it was on target for the first two shots and they were inside each other. That is what I was looking for. The one up and down on the last two shots as I said could have been me. Only more testing will tell. The Remington 40X bore cleaner is a no go. It tells you have to use the rem oil with it and that sends the groups wild. Also it has a warning that tells you not to get any of the cleaner in the action because it will erode it. If it will erode the action I would think it can't be to good for the barrel. I am going to throw it out.

I have to check out how well the Hoppe's Elite protects the barrel if at all. There is no information on the bottle. I will have to check the web to see what they say. So the plan is to use the Hoppe's at this point. Thank you all for your help.

Hoser
08-31-2012, 20:34
Dont make it hard.

Just go shoot it.

m2hmghb
09-02-2012, 05:11
Hoppes Number 9 are two different products, there is a gun cleaner and there is a separate oil. The oil is very thin and light.

WiskyT
09-02-2012, 05:46
Stop cleaning unless accuracy falls off.

I have two 243s and a 308 that hold under MOA out to 1,000 yards. I have not cleaned them in 6 months. The 308 has never been cleaned.

Dont make it hard.

Just go shoot it.

The problem is, people who clean guns like this are compelled to clean guns like this. They can't stop themselves. No matter what you do or say, they will come up with some convoluted, tortured, reasoning on why their gun must be cleaned, and often cleaned for an hour or more using 5 different cleaners that are all the same thing.

Go general firearms and start a thread about getting the burn marks off the cylinder face of your stainless 357. Guys use belt sanders to get them off and you can cut and paste the warnings in their owner's manual about it and they will still advocate it.

I Shooter
09-03-2012, 04:42
WiskyT I don't understand you having a problem with me cleaning my rifle. Just because you don't and want to turn yours in to a peace of junk don't mean that every one has to join you. I guess that every one that builds rifles has it wrong and you are the only one that knows what they are doing. I will go with the information from the people who build them not some guy on the net. You have a great day.

WiskyT
09-03-2012, 06:13
WiskyT I don't understand you having a problem with me cleaning my rifle. Just because you don't and want to turn yours in to a peace of junk don't mean that every one has to join you. I guess that every one that builds rifles has it wrong and you are the only one that knows what they are doing. I will go with the information from the people who build them not some guy on the net. You have a great day.

And thus begins the twisted logic. You have to clean your gun because your late father would be dishonored, followed by my guns are junk.

Hoser's scope mounts cost more than my rifles and he doesn't clean them. I'll guarantee you he outshoots you at 1,000 yards. In fact, he could spot you 500 yards and still beat you. He told you not to clean your rifle as he doesn't clean his.

Face it, to some people, cleaning is a wierd compulsion. You were told clearly by several people to not clean your bore after every time you put a box of ammo through it because it causes the exact problem you were asking about. You asked THEM, and me. We gave you answers and then you say you would never listen to us because the "real" experts say to clean your rifle every time you fire it.

That's antiquated thinking. Unless you're using corrosive primers, or black powder, there is no reason to clean your rifle. You are cleaning your rifle, and getting bad results, based on your father's 1945 technology.

Do you know what the oil change interval on my new car is? When the light comes on. There is no scheduled oil change interval. The manual states that it typicall comes on at around 10k miles. Yesterday's experts said to do it at 3k miles, but they are wrong vased on what we have today. The manual specifically states to not change the oil until the light comes on, including the intitial oil change. There is no mention of break-in in the manual at all. There is no reason to "break-in" engines anymore or to change the oil every 3k miles.

You were also told you could clean your rifle and fire a fouling shot or two and put it away. But this would keep you up at night, the idea of a gun sitting there with 2 rounds down the barrel that hadn't been cleaned for half an hour.

Hoser
09-03-2012, 08:40
WiskyT I don't understand you having a problem with me cleaning my rifle. Just because you don't and want to turn yours in to a peace of junk don't mean that every one has to join you.

Leaving carbon and copper in a barrel does not hurt anything.

This rifle, an Accuracy International AX in 243 was cleaned once so far. That was before a single round was fired through it. Right now I have about 800 rounds through this barrel. I pulled the last barrel when it had almost 3,500 rounds through it. I cleaned it maybe 3-4 times total.
http://i890.photobucket.com/albums/ac105/puebloshooter/DSC03120.jpg

The rifle on the right, an Accuracy International AW in 308 has never been cleaned. The rifle on the left is an AWM in 338 Lapua. I cleaned it around the 200 round mark when accuracy started dropping off.
http://i890.photobucket.com/albums/ac105/puebloshooter/DSC02546.jpg


Rimfires are a different animal. My primary prone rifle does not like to go more than 180-200 shots between cleanings. And then all I do is push a VFG felt pellet with Kroil on it and then follow it up with a dry one. It gets put away dirty. It still manages to put 60 shots inside 3/8 at 50 meters. This pic was taken at the Olympic Training Center earlier this year.
http://i890.photobucket.com/albums/ac105/puebloshooter/DSC03023.jpg


Enough about these junk rifles and cleaning them. I am headed to the range to shoot them. I have F Class Nationals in a few days. I doubt the 308 will get cleaned before or after that match...

I Shooter
09-03-2012, 19:50
WiskyT

My 20011 2500HD has to have its oil changed every 5000 miles according to Chevy. Then they only built the truck. What do they know? I'll take your word for it and change it every 10000 miles as you tell me to do. My 2012 Nissan calls for the oil to be changed every 3500 miles. What do they know. You have all the answers I'll just change it every 10000 miles too. My GA 308 came with a page of information on how to clean it. What do they know they only build rifles. You have all the answers. Iron Brigade Armory has a hole section on stuff to clean rifles. Then they only build rifles for the Marines, what could they know about rifles. Yes you know more than every one. That must be great to know it all. I bow to the great WiskyT.

Hoser if you think it is better not to clean rifles more power to you. I will clean mine. It has always worked for me and I have heard nothing here to change that. You have a great day.

Dawolf
09-03-2012, 20:27
My Weatherby Vanguard II seems to alway fly a little on the 1st shot, then groups well.

Hoser
09-04-2012, 10:58
Hoser if you think it is better not to clean rifles more power to you. I will clean mine. It has always worked for me and I have heard nothing here to change that. You have a great day.

I read your intital post again.

Seems to me, cleaning as often as you are, isnt working for you.

Minimal cleaning is working for me. And I get to spend more time shooting.

Have a good juan.

F106 Fan
09-04-2012, 11:16
I read your intital post again.

Seems to me, cleaning as often as you are, isnt working for you.

Minimal cleaning is working for me. And I get to spend more time shooting.

Have a good juan.

This has been a very interesting thread - for me...

No matter how many chemicals I use, no matter how many patches, no matter how many brush passes, I can NOT get my Steyr SSG clean. There's always more!

Since I can't get it clean anyway, I'm going to try the "don't clean it until it doesn't shoot" approach. The only thing I find worrisome is the possibility of rust. The Steyr barrel is steel, not stainless and while humidity is often in the 90% range, I don't seem to see any rust on my guns. Maybe it isn't a problem. The gas guns (M1A and AR-15) will need some amount of cleaning. The amount is yet to be determined. As to the two Savages with stainless barrels - maybe I'll try leaving them dirty. They don't come clean either!

I want the perfect cold bore shot. I want to be able to drag my rifle out of the trunk and put the first shot in a 1" circle at 100 yards. Every single time! If leaving it dirty will help, I'm willing to try.

Richard

zippyhuntin
09-04-2012, 14:20
I will clean mine. It has always worked for me and I have heard nothing here to change that. You have a great day.

Huh?
You came here looking for an answer to first shot flyers, were given advice, and then snipe at the people trying help you. I don't think that's "working" for you.

Colorado4Wheel
09-04-2012, 14:31
Hoser if you think it is better not to clean rifles more power to you. I will clean mine. It has always worked for me and I have heard nothing here to change that. You have a great day.

Didn't someone prove it wasn't working for them.

Oh, yeah, that was you.:rofl:

GIockGuy24
09-04-2012, 14:35
In the military, in another country, I had some training that consisted of going to the range, firing one round from a cold rifle, and then doing it again the following day, for several weeks.

F106 Fan
09-04-2012, 15:25
In the military, in another country, I had some training that consisted of going to the range, firing one round from a cold rifle, and then doing it again the following day, for several weeks.

So, what did you do about cleaning the rifle?

Richard

WiskyT
09-04-2012, 15:49
In the military, in another country, I had some training that consisted of going to the range, firing one round from a cold rifle, and then doing it again the following day, for several weeks.

There's something to be said for that. Maybe one shot a day is a little extreme as it doesn't give you enough opportunity to figure out what you are doing wrong and right, but shooting less ammo more often is probably better that infrequent training with more rounds fired.

On my old job, we qualified twice a years. That was as often as most guys shot. Many failed to qualify the first round and we did a mandatory second round (all of us) so the losers wouldn't feel bad. The thing is, the first shot they fire is indicative of how they would fire their first shot in the field.

I shoot once a week, usually only one or two boxes.

garander
09-07-2012, 19:00
As a player on the long range target scene for many years, i can give these thoughts. A rifle barrel is not in any way like an automobile. Using stainless barrels made by kreiger and obermeyer i found that most of them would not shoot their best groups until at least fifty rounds were fired. None shot well, in a match at least, without a layer of copper in the bore. These bores are hand lapped and most would not need some copper removed until the three hundred round mark, or later. The actions, gas systems, bolts, sights, trigger groups ect. Were cleaned after every match. But not the bore.
Look at david tubbs. And mid tompkins. The people who are winning these matches. Their cleaning routines may surprise!

Zombie Steve
09-08-2012, 23:49
I'll clean my rifle barrels with the understanding that it will take a few shots to get them to settle down the next time I take them out. If I'm going hunting, I'll check zero with a few shots and not clean it until the hunting trip is over. A dirty /cold bore shot is more predictable than a clean / cold bore shot in my experience.

Copper build up will affect accuracy at some point. When you get to that point, it's a pain to remove. I just find it better to stay on top of it.

Not every rifle is the same, but it works for me...

WiskyT
09-09-2012, 06:03
You can clean my rifle when you get it form my cold, dead hands.

Zombie Steve
09-09-2012, 08:05
:fred:

byf43
09-09-2012, 16:35
Clean barrel with Hoppe's #9 or Kano Kroil.
IF you want to remove ALL traces of solvent, push a fairly tight-fitting patch through the barrel with BraKleen (RED) on the patch.
Repeat with patch/BraKleen.
Note: Do NOT get BraKleen on some plastics, or on a well-finished wood stock. It CAN and WILL harm the finish.
Push dry patch through the barrel.

IF your rifle shoots better with a slightly fouled barrel, so-be-it.

IF your rifle doesn't shoot so well with a clean cold barrel, you will have to change your habits, IF the first shot is important.