Which JHP for both SD and HD? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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joe_rkba
08-30-2012, 10:28
Looking for JHP recommendations for my Glock 19 for both self-defense and home defense use. Drywall overpenetration is a concern, and on a related note, I've heard that JHP ammo in which the hollow point's cavity is filled with plastic more reliably expands because the already filled cavity cannot get filled with clothing material, drywall, etc.

M 7
08-30-2012, 10:50
If a JHP won't penetrate a sheet of drywall, it won't penetrate deeply enough to stop a threat and plugged/clogged JHP cavities don't expand very well since they require hydraulic forces to start and maintain expansion.

Pick any one of the major manufacturer's (Federal, Winchester, Remington, Hornady, etc.) premium JHPs and focus on what's really important- quality training and practice.

joe_rkba
08-30-2012, 11:15
If a JHP won't penetrate a sheet of drywall, it won't penetrate deeply enough to stop a threat Agreed, which is why I'm looking for JHP and not Glaser-type ammo.

and plugged/clogged JHP cavities don't expand very well since they require hydraulic forces to start and maintain expansion.My understanding is the plugged JHP (on right in pic) expand more reliably than JHP that has to go through clothing (and may get clogged with clothing material). Is this incorrect?

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y171/hipowersandhandguns/Ammunition/380DPXvsHornadyCritDefense002JPG-1.jpg

M 7
08-30-2012, 11:56
Agreed, which is why I'm looking for JHP and not Glaser-type ammo.

My understanding is the plugged JHP (on right in pic) expand more reliably than JHP that has to go through clothing (and may get clogged with clothing material). Is this incorrect?

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y171/hipowersandhandguns/Ammunition/380DPXvsHornadyCritDefense002JPG-1.jpg


For those particular designs (Hornady's Critical Defense and Critical Duty ammo, that is), yeah, it seems to work, but it probably requires a very soft lead core and prayer- even then there is no guarantee that it (the plastic insert) will not present a problem. As you can tell, I am not a real big fan of sticking stuff in a JHP's cavity since it tends to complicate things in most cases. Still, Hornady seems to have figured it out and if you believe that it is the option that best answers your concerns, use it.

As for the rest of the "Which SD ammo should I pick?" issue, my "generic suggestion" that you pick a quality JHP made by one of the major ammo manufacturers comes from my opinion that neither extreme ("heavy & slow" or "light & fast") can be right all of the time, every time. Each perspective has it's "pros and cons".

After doing your own research (and thinking for yourself) pick the one that best suits your environment and needs and gives you the most confidence.

Warp
08-30-2012, 12:47
Looking for JHP recommendations for my Glock 19 for both self-defense and home defense use. Drywall overpenetration is a concern, and on a related note, I've heard that JHP ammo in which the hollow point's cavity is filled with plastic more reliably expands because the already filled cavity cannot get filled with clothing material, drywall, etc.

If it can be trusted to stop an attacker, it's going through multiple sheets/walls of drywall.

I vote Speer Gold Dot or Federal HST.

9mm +p+
08-30-2012, 13:30
I run mid weight JHP's at +P or +P+ levels, all the major mfg's make them just pick which one you shoot best. Ranger T's, HST's, Gold Dots, take your pick. As for sheetrock any 9mm non fragmenting is going to go through walls.

Adamz04
08-30-2012, 14:03
I run mid weight JHP's at +P or +P+ levels, all the major mfg's make them just pick which one you shoot best. Ranger T's, HST's, Gold Dots, take your pick. As for sheetrock any 9mm non fragmenting is going to go through walls.

Plus one for this info.
Any quality jhp will penetrate the walls in a stick frame home, possibly even a stud or two (especially if if does not expand). You will still want a choice that will stop the threat though so you don't want to compromise with weak/ junk ammo. Pick a reliable expander. The more expansion you get the less penetration you will have but it will likely be enough to do the job. I like the light and fast loads for HD and the mid weights for SD.

elliotb33
08-30-2012, 14:52
If overpenetration is a worry

YouTube - Underwood 9mm 115 gr +P+ JHP Ammo Test

joe_rkba
08-30-2012, 15:50
The more expansion you get the less penetration you will have but it will likely be enough to do the job. I like the light and fast loads for HD and the mid weights for SD.Just to ensure that I am understanding this correctly, you prefer light and fast for HD because you get a little bit less penetration than a heavier and slower round?

I take it 115gr is considered on the light side for 9mm? And 147gr on the heavy side?

Great video, elliot, thanks for linking that.

elliotb33
08-30-2012, 16:04
Just to ensure that I am understanding this correctly, you prefer light and fast for HD because you get a little bit less penetration than a heavier and slower round?

I take it 115gr is considered on the light side for 9mm? And 147gr on the heavy side?

Great video, elliot, thanks for linking that.

Yep, that expansion is crazy. Never seen a 9mm expand to .884 avg.
TN9 also test underwood 124 +p+ and their 147 +p+ if you want to check those out.
Underwood ammo.com (http://www.underwoodammo.com/9mmlugerp115graingolddotjackethollowpointboxof50-2.aspx)

9mm +p+
08-30-2012, 16:47
I currently run Underwoods 124+P+, it perrformed very well in those tests.

joe_rkba
08-30-2012, 16:53
Yep, that expansion is crazy. Never seen a 9mm expand to .884 avg.
TN9 also test underwood 124 +p+ and their 147 +p+ if you want to check those out.
Underwood ammo.com (http://www.underwoodammo.com/9mmlugerp115graingolddotjackethollowpointboxof50-2.aspx)Just watched the 147 +p+ video. Nice comparison of the tradeoff of expansion vs penetration using the same bullet.

joe_rkba
08-30-2012, 16:55
Seems the general consensus (or as much of a consensus as can be reached on ammo related issues) is for 9mm self-defense rounds, one should go +p or +p+ (at least for Glocks since they can handle the extra pressure).

M 7
08-30-2012, 18:20
Seems the general consensus (or as much of a consensus as can be reached on ammo related issues) is for 9mm self-defense rounds, one should go +p or +p+ (at least for Glocks since they can handle the extra pressure).

There is no need for +P or +P+ in the 9mm if you are using 147 gr. JHPs (the increase in velocity is relatively small- usually 50-75 fps) and seeking an increase in penetration under these circumstances (< 1") is an exercise in diminishing returns.

TexasGlockster
08-30-2012, 18:35
I carry Speer 124 +P Gold Dot Hollow Points when I have my conversion barrel in my G23. I do this because those rounds have proven reliable in my gun and because many law enforcement agencies that use 9mm have found it effective.

unit1069
08-30-2012, 22:34
There are street proven rounds like 115-grain Federal 9BPLE, 124-grain Speer Gold Dot +P, and Winchester 127-grain +P+ available for all-round self-defense needs.

My own thoughts about home defense involving close range scenarios would include standard pressure rounds and +P/+P+ rounds in many other quality JHP ammo, like Remington Golden Saber, Hornady, Speer, Federal, etc ...

From what I can tell the default round by which to judge all other 9mm rounds is the Speer 124-grain Gold Dot +P. Using that standard you can pick the round you think is best for your particular overall shooting characteristics in your chosen handgun.

Others can only offer their insights; it's up to you to make your independent evaluation and choice.

unit1069
08-30-2012, 22:44
There is no need for +P or +P+ in the 9mm if you are using 147 gr. JHPs (the increase in velocity is relatively small- usually 50-75 fps) and seeking an increase in penetration under these circumstances (< 1") is an exercise in diminishing returns.

But the impact event and attendant tissue displacement tells much more than the final penetration/expansion statistics do. That's why I like to see a full autopsy (for want of a better term) of gelatin tests that are made available by careful and conscientious posters on the Internet.

fredj338
08-30-2012, 22:55
You street ammo needn't be any diff than your HD ammo. A miss on the street is just as likely to cause unwanted injury as one at home. If over penetration or penetrating bldg mat'ls is an issue for you, go with the ligthest/fastest, non bonded JHP in that caliber. It has less mass for less penetration but the downside is you may not reach vitals on an attacker either. It's always a balancing act.

9mm +p+
08-31-2012, 01:45
There is no need for +P or +P+ in the 9mm if you are using 147 gr. JHPs (the increase in velocity is relatively small- usually 50-75 fps) and seeking an increase in penetration under these circumstances (< 1") is an exercise in diminishing returns.

147's are pure idiocy, the worst thing to ever happen to the 9mm. The ONLY 147 I would use or suggest would be Underwoods +p+ loads. You might check your #'s as well, it's 200 fps faster than your typical watered down 147...

barth
08-31-2012, 05:43
Looking for JHP recommendations for my Glock 19 for both self-defense and home defense use. Drywall overpenetration is a concern, and on a related note, I've heard that JHP ammo in which the hollow point's cavity is filled with plastic more reliably expands because the already filled cavity cannot get filled with clothing material, drywall, etc.

Hitting the bad guy is a great way to not shoot through walls - LOL!

Seriously,
124/127 gr 9mm +P/+P+, in Speer GDHP, Federal HST or Winchester Ranger T-Series - are considered by many to be Best of the Best.

You might want to consider the standard pressure flavor to reduce penetration.

uz2bUSMC
08-31-2012, 05:47
There is no need for +P or +P+ in the 9mm if you are using 147 gr. JHPs (the increase in velocity is relatively small- usually 50-75 fps) and seeking an increase in penetration under these circumstances (< 1") is an exercise in diminishing returns.

I don't think most people are after more penetration when they choose +p or +p+. They tend to penetrate less through a medium than heavy for caliber bullets.

joe_rkba
08-31-2012, 06:03
147's are pure idiocy, the worst thing to ever happen to the 9mm. The ONLY 147 I would use or suggest would be Underwoods +p+ loads.Why do you say that? Not enough reliable expansion?

M 7
08-31-2012, 07:51
147's are pure idiocy, the worst thing to ever happen to the 9mm. The ONLY 147 I would use or suggest would be Underwoods +p+ loads. You might check your #'s as well, it's 200 fps faster than your typical watered down 147...

True in the 90s.

We now have HSTs, RA9Ts, Gold Dots, PDXs, and several other standard pressure 147 gr. ammunition that offers excellent performance and surpasses anything the lighter JHPs will do.

Welcome to the 21st Century. :wavey:

M 7
08-31-2012, 07:57
I don't think most people are after more penetration when they choose +p or +p+. They tend to penetrate less through a medium than heavy for caliber bullets.

Of course, you are correct. They exhibit greater expansion due to greater hydraulic forces and come to a stop faster. Sounds like you have done a great job of informing yourself about this stuff.

The reason I prefer ammo with a high sectional density is that it gives me the best of both worlds- I get expansion to 1.5-1.75x caliber and somewhat deeper penetration than with the lighter weights (115s & 124s).

M 7
08-31-2012, 08:10
But the impact event and attendant tissue displacement tells much more than the final penetration/expansion statistics do. That's why I like to see a full autopsy (for want of a better term) of gelatin tests that are made available by careful and conscientious posters on the Internet.

I'm not so sure that the tests found on the internet are of much value. They rarely if ever use calibrated ordnance gelatin (the only validated ballistic test media other than water) usually defering to a material called SimTest.

As far as I know, SimTest has yet to be validated through research as a reliable ballistic test medium.

Just the same, I do find tests done in properly calibrated gel and water to be fairly useful and informative.

The Retired Sarge
08-31-2012, 08:11
Do not choose ammunition through negative criteria such as limiting penetration or what if. Choose ammunition that meets your applications for its first and foremost purpose: stopping someone who is actively seeking to kill you. My criteria in selecting business ammo is rounds that will work under any conditions, any angle, and size of bad guy. Bill

unit1069
08-31-2012, 08:41
I'm not so sure that the tests found on the internet are of much value. They rarely if ever use calibrated ordnance gelatin (the only validated ballistic test media other than water) usually defering to a material called SimTest.

As far as I know, SimTest has yet to be validated through research as a reliable ballistic test medium.

Just the same, I do find tests done in properly calibrated gel and water to be fairly useful and informative.

I agree that most Internet videos of ammo tests are not reliable sources of information but there are a couple of well-regarded individuals who use calibrated gel and go through definite steps to investigate the results of their tests.

uz2bUSMC
08-31-2012, 13:08
Of course, you are correct. They exhibit greater expansion due to greater hydraulic forces and come to a stop faster. Sounds like you have done a great job of informing yourself about this stuff.

The reason I prefer ammo with a high sectional density is that it gives me the best of both worlds- I get expansion to 1.5-1.75x caliber and somewhat deeper penetration than with the lighter weights (115s & 124s).

I understand that some want deeper penetration, my problem is with the balance. Given a round for HD and SD, I feel that 147grain is terrible. To me, the 9mm can't do any one thing outstandingly, never mind multiple. The 124's and 127's in +p or +p+ allow it to do multiple things at least decently. Now to cover these "things" I speak of.

If you are trying to find a load that can be used for both HD and SD I believe that you should start with SD and work your way backwards to settle on the HD round. You should, after all, be safer in your own home. So, you should find something that meets your personal risk assessment the best when out and about.

There are things to consider about platform but the OP already has that chosen a G19. That brings us to ammo selection. Do you live in a consistently warm climate, how 'bout a cold climate where the locals will wear heavy clothing? Does your firearm exhibit questionable reliability with any certain type of ammo? ETC. Once this has been considered and a few have been selected, see which of those also double as the most ideal for HD. If you live alone in the country... it doesn't really matter. If you have family members in several rooms of the house and it also happens to be a duplex, your choice demands more consideration. If you have chosen two similar bullets during your SD risk assessment, it's a wash. If you have selected a 115+p+ and a standard pressure 147grn, you have two different animals.

Now on to why I dislike the 147grn...it's slow and anemic, a compact such as the G19 adds to this, aswell. Although it will not penetrate a hard barrier like sheet metal very well, it will penetrate some drywall more similarly to a fmj. Because of it's slow nature, bullet deformation is less likely since retarding forces are reduced. This coupled with it's high sectional density is what will allow it to run nicely through your house if you happen to miss. The 115+p+ will have a greater chance of deforming itself through interior walls and objects because of it's speed. Does the possibility exist that the 115 grn'er will clog and penetrate swiftly through a domicile? Yes. Less likely than the 147, however.

Overall, I think the 147grn is a dangerous cartridge for every good guy and consequently gives the bad guy the best chance. As Pjhjim has said in another thread, you're basically turning your 9mm into a .38 special. One of those popular .38 special rounds of old was dubbed the widow maker for a reason.

Warp
08-31-2012, 13:11
Overall, I think the 147grn is a dangerous cartridge for every good guy and consequently gives the bad guy the best chance. As Pjhjim has said in another thread, you're basically turning your 9mm into a .38 special. One of those popular .38 special rounds of old was dubbed the widow maker for a reason.

What?

hotpig
08-31-2012, 13:16
What?

I know, its like a flash back to a old Chuck Hawks article posted in the 90's about 80's 147gr ammo.

uz2bUSMC
08-31-2012, 13:28
What?

It's just a hole puncher.Unfortunately, the good guys are fed the "all service calibers are the same" from all the Facklorites and then they choose a crap load like the 147. Then the slow bastard fails to expand when they need it to and the bad guy keeps fighting. From what I'm hearing, the street results are showing the 147's to be less than desirable for stopping.

uz2bUSMC
08-31-2012, 13:29
I know, its like a flash back to a old Chuck Hawks article posted in the 90's about 80's 147gr ammo.

From what I have seen, the only thing you seem to know is how to sell bullets.

Warp
08-31-2012, 13:36
It's just a hole puncher.Unfortunately, the good guys are fed the "all service calibers are the same" from all the Facklorites and then they choose a crap load like the 147. Then the slow bastard fails to expand when they need it to and the bad guy keeps fighting. From what I'm hearing, the street results are showing the 147's to be less than desirable for stopping.

A good, current 147gr load is just fine.

BTW: My local PD has been using RA9T (147gr talon) for awhile. They have been more than satisfied with the results.

SEARTraining
08-31-2012, 13:37
Consider using what your local law enforcement uses. Otherwise 124 grain Speer Gold Dot (+P if u want it). I always make sure my wife can shoot and handle the recoil, especially the HD weapon.


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hotpig
08-31-2012, 13:43
Consider using what your local law enforcement uses. Otherwise 124 grain Speer Gold Dot (+P if u want it). I always make sure my wife can shoot and handle the recoil, especially the HD weapon.


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The 124+P is my biggest 9mm GD selling item. The 124 standard pressure is a viable option for the middle weight fan that is recoil sensitive.

uz2bUSMC
08-31-2012, 13:49
A good, current 147gr load is just fine.

Based on what, brotha? Gel tests? How are the 147 HST's doing on the street?

BTW: My local PD has been using RA9T (147gr talon) for awhile. They have been more than satisfied with the results.

How many shooting's have they had? What info have they given you?



It will take a lot more than saying one PD likes a 147grn for me to even remotely consider it, let alone a 9mm in general.

Warp
08-31-2012, 14:07
It will take a lot more than saying one PD likes a 147grn for me to even remotely consider it, let alone a 9mm in general.

There is a lot more information out there than one PD.

And there are a ton of PDs out there using "9mm in general".

I don't know how many OIS this PD has had total while using RA9T, but they've been using it awhile and they were at 7-9 OIS per year last time I checked, with good results.

I have RA9TA in my G26 right now and 124 +P Gold Dots in my G19. My strongest preference is for Gold Dots, regardless of caliber, but I have no problem at all with 147 gr Ranger, Gold Dot, or HST (I have carried each of those)

Do you recall the FBI adopting the RA9B?

M 7
08-31-2012, 14:18
I agree that most Internet videos of ammo tests are not reliable sources of information but there are a couple of well-regarded individuals who use calibrated gel and go through definite steps to investigate the results of their tests.

I just wish that I had the time to search 'em all out. I know that BrassFetcher does some gel testing, the problem being that some tests are done using 10% gel, others using 20%. Gets a bit tiresome trying to keep track which is being used.

The only other source that I know of is Dr. Roberts' 'site m4carbine.com. Good deal of it over there, they even have photos- a "must have" IMO.

uz2bUSMC
08-31-2012, 14:23
There is a lot more information out there than one PD.

I know. Funny thing is, the the 115 +p+ are working great. Actually, the +p and +p+ variates seem to bee working across the board, except, I haven't heard that about the 147's yet. But if you or anyone has info, I'd like to see it.

And there are a ton of PDs out there using "9mm in general".

This is irrelevant. Budgeting controls most of this. Nothing Lea's or military does has any influence on any of my reasoning. Those who think that if a department or military entity is using it it must be good is fooling themselves.

I don't know how many OIS this PD has had total while using RA9T, but they've been using it awhile and they were at 7-9 OIS per year last time I checked, with good results.

Need more info to matter. At least to me. 4 officers firing into one bad guy doesn't say much for cartridge performance. An after action is more credible. An LEO account doesn't hold much weight, either, since they are not all gun guys by any stretch.

I have RA9TA in my G26 right now and 124 +P Gold Dots in my G19. My strongest preference is for Gold Dots, regardless of caliber, but I have no problem at all with 147 gr Ranger, Gold Dot, or HST (I have carried each of those)

Do you recall the FBI adopting the RA9B?

No. But I would like to hear about it. It may ring a bell.



I'm open to information if it's useful.

unit1069
08-31-2012, 14:25
I just wish that I had the time to search 'em all out. I know that BrassFetcher does some gel testing, the problem being that some tests are done using 10% gel, others using 20%. Gets a bit tiresome trying to keep track which is being used.

The only other source that I know of is Dr. Roberts' 'site m4carbine.com. Good deal of it over there, they even have photos- a "must have" IMO.

Check out tnoutdoors9 (http://http://www.youtube.com/user/tnoutdoors9/videos).

I particularly like his independent evaluations because he has developed a simple step-by-step process that compacts his tests into 4-5 minute videos.

Furthermore, tnoutdoors presents his findings and allows the viewer to make his/her own judgments without the dogmatic "my way or the highway" attitude some alleged experts exhibit.

M 7
08-31-2012, 14:26
I know, its like a flash back to a old Chuck Hawks article posted in the 90's about 80's 147gr ammo.


Ain't that the truth? I think that Hawks is responsible for much of the long-lived misgivings many seem to harbor about the 147 gr. JHPs despite the tremendous leaps forward in manufacturing technology. If ever there was a website that could be called "lost in time", Hawks' 'site is it.

M 7
08-31-2012, 14:33
Check out tnoutdoors9 (http://http://www.youtube.com/user/tnoutdoors9/videos).

Thanks, I have already seen just a few of 'em.

He sure tries hard to do a good job, I'll give him that, but he is still using SimTest medium- not really sure that his data is comparable to anything else- I mean other than other tests using SimTest.

Geez, he must've spent a small fortune already seeing all of the tests he's done. :shocked:

Just wish that some of 'em had been in C10OG. :sad:

kc_pig
08-31-2012, 14:40
FYI for those of you who are po-po, Winchester Ranger T-Series 9mm +P, 124GR :

http://www.policehq.com/Products/W-RA9124TP

50 rounds for $17.99. I stocked up.

uz2bUSMC
08-31-2012, 14:40
Ain't that the truth? I think that Hawks is responsible for much of the long-lived misgivings many seem to harbor about the 147 gr. JHPs despite the tremendous leaps forward in manufacturing technology. If ever there was a website that could be called "lost in time", Hawks' 'site is it.

Then there must be some definitive results with the "newer" 147's out there. Other than gel, I mean.

unit1069
08-31-2012, 14:58
Thanks, I have already seen just a few of 'em.

He sure tries hard to do a good job, I'll give him that, but he is still using SimTest medium- not really sure that his data is comparable to anything else- I mean other than other tests using SimTest.

Geez, he must've spent a small fortune already seeing all of the tests he's done. :shocked:

Just wish that some of 'em had been in C10OG. :sad:

Why then are you promoting a book via tagline that relies on water to predict ammo performance?

Based upon a modified fluid dynamics equation that correlates highly (r = +0.94) to more than 700 points of manufacturer- and laboratory-test data, the quantitative model allows the use of water to generate terminal ballistic test results equivalent to those obtained in calibrated ten percent ordnance gelatin.

M 7
08-31-2012, 15:02
Then there must be some definitive results with the "newer" 147's out there. Other than gel, I mean.

Perhaps there are. Unfortunately, those in possession of them seem to be holding them (however many there are) awfully close to their chests.

Not much we can do about that.

As I said at the top of thread-


As for the rest of the "Which SD ammo should I pick?" issue, my "generic suggestion" that you pick a quality JHP made by one of the major ammo manufacturers comes from my opinion that neither extreme ("heavy & slow" or "light & fast") can be right all of the time, every time. Each perspective has it's "pros and cons".

After doing your own research (and thinking for yourself) pick the one that best suits your environment and needs and gives you the most confidence.

-so I really don't care what someone else's "pick" is or their reasons for making their "pick" since their needs are probably (much) different than mine. I base my pick off of my needs and hope that everyone else does the same, 'cause in the end, the seemingly endless bickering about "whose" is "best" is a waste of time. (it hasn't happened here............... yet :duel:)

Just as I have, you've obviously made your pick for reasons that you find important. Far be it from me to call you on it. :winkie:

M 7
08-31-2012, 15:09
Why then are you promoting a book via tagline that relies on water to predict ammo performance?

I liked the book and thought that others might enjoy reading it.

Thought I covered it here, maybe you missed it-


Just the same, I do find tests done in properly calibrated gel and water to be fairly useful and informative.

Besides gel, water is a valid ballistic test medium. Read Fackler, MacPherson, the FBI, etc.- they all agree that water is a valid medium.

Warp
08-31-2012, 16:06
I'm open to information if it's useful.

The current FBI selection for 9mm is the 147gr Ranger Bonded.

M 7
08-31-2012, 16:19
The current FBI selection for 9mm is the 147gr Ranger Bonded.

RA9B isn't it?

Warp
08-31-2012, 16:22
RA9B isn't it?

Yes, that is RA9B

Rob1109
08-31-2012, 16:26
Looking for JHP recommendations for my Glock 19 for both self-defense and home defense use. Drywall overpenetration is a concern, and on a related note, I've heard that JHP ammo in which the hollow point's cavity is filled with plastic more reliably expands because the already filled cavity cannot get filled with clothing material, drywall, etc.

I carry what our local LEO's carry: Speer GD.

M 7
08-31-2012, 16:30
Yes, that is RA9B

From what I've heard, the Winchester PDX1 (147 gr.) uses the same bullet. I've been thinking of getting a few boxes.

Warp
08-31-2012, 16:35
From what I've heard, the Winchester PDX1 (147 gr.) uses the same bullet. I've been thinking of getting a few boxes.

I believe they are identical, the PDX1 just costs more per round but is more readily available to individual buyers.

uz2bUSMC
08-31-2012, 17:08
The current FBI selection for 9mm is the 147gr Ranger Bonded.

Ok. But what do you think this would mean to me?

Warp
08-31-2012, 17:32
Ok. But what do you think this would mean to me?

Are you aware that the FBI spends a great deal of resources evaluating a round's performance before selecting it?

And that they have experience shooting bad guys?

jdavionic
08-31-2012, 17:38
Are you aware that the FBI spends a great deal of resources evaluating a round's performance before selecting it?

And that they have experience shooting bad guys?

Just one caveat though...I suspect it takes them a lot of time to do these studies and reach conclusions. Point being, they may not use the most effective ammo on the market today. However I'm sure the ammo they do use is very effective.

uz2bUSMC
08-31-2012, 18:28
Are you aware that the FBI spends a great deal of resources evaluating a round's performance before selecting it?

And that they have experience shooting bad guys?

I am aware they evaluate rounds. Pretty sure they also carry .40's. What is their reasoning for the RA9B? Just because they use it does not mean it has a terminal performance that out shines all else. If I'm not mistaken they also employ MP5/10's (not exclusively to my knowledge). If this is the case, why not just use standard MP5's?

Are you aware that they don't shoot a lot of bad guys?

Warp
08-31-2012, 18:29
I am aware they evaluate rounds. Pretty sure they also carry .40's. What is their reasoning for the RA9B? Just because they use it does not mean it has a terminal performance that out shines all else. If I'm not mistaken they also employ MP5/10's (not exclusively to my knowledge). If this is the case, why not just use standard MP5's?

Are you aware that they don't shoot a lot of bad guys?

I never said nor implied this.

All I have said all along is that the 147gr loads are fine.

uz2bUSMC
08-31-2012, 18:34
I never said nor implied this.

All I have said all along is that the 147gr loads are fine.

Jesus, you're like a post ninja or something. Pretty sure you responed to that before I actually hit submit reply.

Anyway, I guess if all they are is "fine" and you and a bunch of others are content with "fine" so be it. I consider them a "poor" choice, but to each their own.

unit1069
08-31-2012, 18:35
From what I have read the federal government has been on an HST buying binge for agency ammo.

M 7
08-31-2012, 18:49
Jesus, you're like a post ninja or something. Pretty sure you responed to that before I actually hit submit reply.

:rofl:

Now that's funny, right there!

I sure am glad that I wasn't drinking something when I read this, otherwise I'd be sending you a bill for cleaning my keyboard.

hotpig
08-31-2012, 19:56
Ok. But what do you think this would mean to me?

Nothing since you do not like 147gr.

Many others let the FBI spend the bucks on testing then they follow with their purchases.

FBI skipped the low bid Gold Dots that they already were using in favor of Ranger Bonded 147 in 9mm and 180 in 40 cal.

Who knows what the next contract will bring.

Darkangel1846
09-01-2012, 11:30
If a JHP won't penetrate a sheet of drywall, it won't penetrate deeply enough to stop a threat and plugged/clogged JHP cavities don't expand very well since they require hydraulic forces to start and maintain expansion.

Pick any one of the major manufacturer's (Federal, Winchester, Remington, Hornady, etc.) premium JHPs and focus on what's really important- quality training and practice.

Excellent post!:wavey:

joe_rkba
09-01-2012, 12:12
I carry what our local LEO's carry: Speer GD.Turns out my local LEOs also use Speer GD, normal pressure. I'll give these a go. Next time around I might try +P.

M 7
09-01-2012, 20:43
Excellent post!:wavey:

Thanks. :)