Underwood Gold Dot 180gr 10mm meteorite tested by tnoutdoors9 [Archive] - Glock Talk

PDA

View Full Version : Underwood Gold Dot 180gr 10mm meteorite tested by tnoutdoors9


cowboy1964
09-01-2012, 13:29
How powerful is it?

It's so powerful the jacket and core almost separated (this just doesn't happen with Gold Dots, not through denim)!

It's so powerful you don't measure the expanded diameter, you measure the stretched length!

10mm Ammo Gel Test: 180 gr Gold Dot (Underwood Ammo) - YouTube

G33Man
09-01-2012, 14:25
That is awesome. I would like to see the same test using the same Underwood ammo but with the Hornady XTP bullet that they also offer.

plouffedaddy
09-01-2012, 14:31
That is awesome. I would like to see the same test using the same Underwood ammo but with the Hornady XTP bullet that they also offer.

My guess is it would penetrate at least 20''. That XTP isn't known for expansion...

I'd like to see the 155gr and 165gr Gold Dots tested as well.

uzimon
09-01-2012, 15:20
tagg:cool:

Berto
09-01-2012, 15:33
No disappointment in bullet performance.

9mm +p+
09-01-2012, 15:55
Ummmmm, who cares if the jkt seperated a wee bit? Not I, that was friggin awesome and would do a real number on flesh. Makes me want a 10mm upper for my 21.

klmmicro
09-01-2012, 16:05
Just ordered some of these for a winter woods load. After reading a bunch on this offering, it would seem that Underwood has done it right for true 10mm Auto spec loads. Thank you for sharing the video!

G33Man
09-01-2012, 16:57
My guess is it would penetrate at least 20''. That XTP isn't known for expansion...

I'd like to see the 155gr and 165gr Gold Dots tested as well.


The XTP is an excellent bullet designed for deep penetration and controlled expansion. It is one of the most accurate JHPs I've ever had the pleasure of shooting and have never had any issues of any kind with the bullet.

Obviously I am a big fan of Hornady's XTP JHP bullet (and the Speer Gold Dot). I have shot (and recovered) these bullets thru just about every type of material I can think of. I am always impressed with the consistency of the expansion and the recovered bullet weight.

I have just stumbled onto Underwood ammo recently and am excited to have another choice of 10mm loads.

Breadman03
09-01-2012, 17:19
I might just have to place an order with Underwood.

Beretta92guy
09-01-2012, 17:50
that bullet = "a whole lotta' messed-up" on whatever it hits :)

plouffedaddy
09-01-2012, 18:43
The XTP is an excellent bullet designed for deep penetration and controlled expansion. It is one of the most accurate JHPs I've ever had the pleasure of shooting and have never had any issues of any kind with the bullet.

Obviously I am a big fan of Hornady's XTP JHP bullet (and the Speer Gold Dot). I have shot (and recovered) these bullets thru just about every type of material I can think of. I am always impressed with the consistency of the expansion and the recovered bullet weight.

I have just stumbled onto Underwood ammo recently and am excited to have another choice of 10mm loads.

No argument that the XTP is a good bullet. But, like you said it's known for deep penetration, not wide expansion. That's all I was trying to point out.

JW1178
09-01-2012, 18:58
Freaking awesome! Let me rephrase that: Holy mother of Thor!!!

Bullet failure technically, but anything hit by that would also suffer failure. It goes without saying, even if your shot placement wasn't spot on, the damage caused by that would be disabling, and the bleeding would be something that won't take long to be deadly, and the "shock" factor of a hit like that alone would most likely stop a fight.

I wish LE would look back into the 10mm on the G20 platform.

(waiting on 9mm fanboy arguments)

LOVE my G20. Now, need some new ammo. Can't wait to see more test. I'd like to see the cavity left by the 135gr.

uz2bUSMC
09-01-2012, 19:09
Although the test result was impressive, well, standard in my mind for the 10mm, the best part is what he mentioned near the end... he is going to train up to use the 10mm where he feels comfortable. Most people try to throttle down the loadings ( other than 10mm) until they feel good about their shooting, TN9 is obviously someone who will put in the effort to master his desired loading instead.

Remington 870
09-01-2012, 20:17
cowboy 1964 that was a cool test. I am interested in maybe trying the 200 grain underwood load for deer maybe if you get a chance to test that load I would really appreciate that. I think that load would have some very deep penetration! your videos are very good keep up the good work.

cowboy1964
09-01-2012, 20:21
cowboy 1964 that was a cool test. I am interested in maybe trying the 200 grain underwood load for deer maybe if you get a chance to test that load I would really appreciate that. I think that load would have some very deep penetration! your videos are very good keep up the good work.

(not my test, it's tnoutdoors9's)

JW1178
09-01-2012, 22:02
I wonder what he's going to test next, the 165's? When I did my own personal testing on DT's 165 it was quite impressive. I'd like to see the 135 in some balistics gel. I know it doesn't penetrate very deep, but every kind of other test I've seen done the 135 does massive damage. 155's would be interesting too. As far as the 180-200 XTP's, he will need to get another block or he's going to finally use some of those water jugs.

9mm +p+
09-02-2012, 01:38
I'm waiting for the 45 ACP 230 gold dot +P test, hint, hint.

NEOH212
09-02-2012, 02:19
Interesting.

I'd never carry that load. It's way too hot and the bullet is obviously being pushed beyond it's design limits. Back off the velocity by 75 to 100 fps and maybe they will have something.

Besides, I'd be willing to bet there would be repeatable overpenetration issues with this load in the real world.

At least Underwood hit the advertised velocity mark for a change! :rofl:

Eric2340
09-02-2012, 04:24
Being a 10mm noob myself, how much of an issue is this jacket separation issue w/ normal FACTORY 10mm loads?

I keep hearing about how great the mighty 10mm is and I am interested in it in a full size gun, but not if jacket separation and over penetration are normal things?

Thanks -

4949shooter
09-02-2012, 06:10
Interesting.

I'd never carry that load. It's way too hot and the bullet is obviously being pushed beyond it's design limits. Back off the velocity by 75 to 100 fps and maybe they will have something.

Besides, I'd be willing to bet there would be repeatable overpenetration issues with this load in the real world.

At least Underwood hit the advertised velocity mark for a change! :rofl:

Underwood has a Delta Elite specific load which is the same 180 grain Gold Dot bullet backed off to 1240 fps to allow it to be safely fired in a Colt Delta.

TNOutdoors, I would love to see this load tested as a comparison to the 1300 fps load!

Being a 10mm noob myself, how much of an issue is this jacket separation issue w/ normal FACTORY 10mm loads?

I keep hearing about how great the mighty 10mm is and I am interested in it in a full size gun, but not if jacket separation and over penetration are normal things?

Thanks -

Guys, this was not "complete" jacket seperation. The jacket peeled back, but stayed bonded to the load core. There was some fragmentation which is not necessarily a bad thing, and could be a good thing when you have enough penetration (17 3/4" of it).

Each fragment creates its own separate wound channel.

Devastating.

swinokur
09-02-2012, 06:46
This is my EDC load. I am kinda surprised he fired several shots to get an average velocity but didn't do that for an average gel test.

BTW, in my experience, Underwood ammo has always performed at advertised specs. DT, not so much.

uz2bUSMC
09-02-2012, 07:42
This is my EDC load. I am kinda surprised he fired several shots to get an average velocity but didn't do that for an average gel test.

BTW, in my experience, Underwood ammo has always performed at advertised specs. DT, not so much.

That would probably be a pain in the arse shoot 5 different blocks as the integritey of that particular block was mostly ruined. To shoot the same block, the rounds obviously have to stagger, the more you do this, the more penetration goes up since wound tracks overlap. This would not be much of a problem with, say, a 147grn standard pressure 9mm but not so much with the underwood 180 he used.

swinokur
09-02-2012, 07:45
Well he does melt the gel down and reuse it. Bringing more than one block wouldn't seem to be that big of a pain IMHO.

uz2bUSMC
09-02-2012, 07:58
Being a 10mm noob myself, how much of an issue is this jacket separation issue w/ normal FACTORY 10mm loads?

I keep hearing about how great the mighty 10mm is and I am interested in it in a full size gun, but not if jacket separation and over penetration are normal things?

Thanks -

As 4949shooter has stated, the bullet did not fail the jacket did what it was supposed to do. Looks to me like that underwood load sqeezed the most out of that bullet. On another note, I personally don't mind some frag...

On to the overpenetration subject. Considering the human body, the skin on entrance equates to roughly 2" of penetration value, on exit about 4". That's totals 6" of penetration, give or take just considering the skin. Now let's add about 8" of media that the bullet has to contend with inside the body (slender person), that's 14" of penetration value that the bullet will have to overcome in this example. Based on the load tested, assuming a decent correlation between the gel shot and our hypothetical BG, that only leaves about 3" of unaccounted penetration. At this point the bullet is terribly deformed with a much larger sectional density thus it's penetration potential is pathetic at best. If it were to strike another target beyond your first it would barely be able to contend with clothing and/or the first layer of skin. The bullet is not harmless but pretty damn close. This is why people generally don't concern themselves with overpentration. Missing your target is your true nemesis.

swinokur
09-02-2012, 08:01
well said sir.

uz2bUSMC
09-02-2012, 08:02
Well he does melt the gel down and reuse it. Bringing more than one block wouldn't seem to be that big of a pain IMHO.

Maybe not, I could only consider it from my point of view. I wouldn't want to have to store 200+lbs of ballistic gel. Nor would I want to melt one block down and reuse it on 5 deferent occasions for the same bullet test. But that's just me.

ETA: Also, I just appreciate that he is willing to do these tests at all. It must take a good bit of his time considering how meticulous he is.

swinokur
09-02-2012, 08:05
I just figured if you shoot more than one shot to get a chrono average, the same would apply to a gel test. Maybe not.

alwaysshootin
09-02-2012, 08:11
that bullet = "a whole lotta' messed-up" on whatever it hits :)

I guess the old statement about " as long as you have good shot placement" doesn't matter so much with the 10MM, at least in the 180 grain Gold Dot underwood offering. :supergrin:

Could you even begin to imagine a shoulder shot, arm, thigh, crotch, stomach, or, center of mass shot, that wouldn't stop a goblin, immediately. Talk about a fight stopper. Why would anyone choose anything less? :dunno:

G33Man
09-02-2012, 09:49
A couple of comments.

1) I have seen complete copper jacket/lead core separation in other bullets. This GD bullet performed as expected...especially pushed to it's limits. The recovered bullet weight was excellent.

2) This is pure conjecture on my part but a XTP bullet could possibly penetrate 18"-20" (compared to the GD 17") and pass thru a body if nothing solid was struck. This might limit it's application to something other than a self defense round against a human.

3) It seems like it is time to develop a true 10mm bullet versus using the standard .40 S&W bullet pushed to 1300-1600 fps.

AKRover
09-02-2012, 10:34
Since Underwood doesn't ship ammo to Alaska I'll be placing an order for delivery to my parents next time I head down there to visit. I tried some Underwood ammo and was really impressed. After seeing this I'm going to have to try some of these.

JW1178
09-02-2012, 10:49
Interesting.

I'd never carry that load. It's way too hot and the bullet is obviously being pushed beyond it's design limits. Back off the velocity by 75 to 100 fps and maybe they will have something.

Besides, I'd be willing to bet there would be repeatable overpenetration issues with this load in the real world.

At least Underwood hit the advertised velocity mark for a change! :rofl:

Keep in mind you are looking at the bullet after it had completely finished it's path of 17" of gel. From about 2" in all the way to about 8" in that bullet was probably an inch wide if not more. It expanded to it's max and then began to peel back, but it didn't do that instantly. Bullet failure, did you see that wound track? If the bullet had failed, there wouldn't have been that impressive of a wound track. About the overpenetration....

On to the overpenetration subject. Considering the human body, the skin on entrance equates to roughly 2" of penetration value, on exit about 4". That's totals 6" of penetration, give or take just considering the skin. Now let's add about 8" of media that the bullet has to contend with inside the body (slender person), that's 14" of penetration value that the bullet will have to overcome in this example. Based on the load tested, assuming a decent correlation between the gel shot and our hypothetical BG, that only leaves about 3" of unaccounted penetration. At this point the bullet is terribly deformed with a much larger sectional density thus it's penetration potential is pathetic at best. If it were to strike another target beyond your first it would barely be able to contend with clothing and/or the first layer of skin. The bullet is not harmless but pretty damn close. This is why people generally don't concern themselves with overpentration. Missing your target is your true nemesis.

Very true. For that bullet to make an exit and then in it's expanded state start to penetrate another person, it's not going to be very potent. Even in rifle bullets it take a whole lot of power to do this. Once a bullet hits an object, it loses a lot of energy as most of it is transfered. Such as in modern tanks. WWII and before the tanks were pretty much solid iron, but since then, a tanks armor consists of a multiple layers of hard and soft material. The hard material to stop the round, the soft to absorb the energy, then repeats. The Israeli tank has probably the most advanced armor type of this kind, which has taken direct hits against anti-tank misiles available to their enemies only to return fire.

JW1178
09-02-2012, 11:01
3) It seems like it is time to develop a true 10mm bullet versus using the standard .40 S&W bullet pushed to 1300-1600 fps.

The only issue with that is how could that be done. I guess a smaller opening to the hollowpoint but that would decrease the speed of expansion and likelyhood of expansion. Also, the 10mm energy/velocity is pushing the limits of the lead itself. Using a harder casting of lead, which wouldn't expand as wide, or as fast. Then, either method would result in less expansion and more penetration. Like you said, I think this was an example of the limits of a GD bullet. So, the 180GD was perfect in this loading.

avenues165
09-02-2012, 12:26
That test is most impressive. I would imagine if it were to strike bone in the first half of its penetration it would create a gigantic mess inside the target. Broken bones, traveling bone fragments, fragmenting lead and copper, etc. It surely would also create a mess inside the target without striking anything solid.

If you can handle the recoil this seems like a devastating SD load. I would imagine that a double tap center mass would almost always be a fight ender.

I don't think the bullet failed, it was just pushed to the limit, with great effect.

TWS G26
09-02-2012, 13:55
Well he does melt the gel down and reuse it. Bringing more than one block wouldn't seem to be that big of a pain IMHO.

It IS a pain in the arse. Each test requires approximately 10 hours of my day; chronograph, opening shots, review, test shot, followup, cleanup, gel melting, video production, upload, processing. Considering that I travel on business quite a bit and I'm buried in spreadsheets and email when I'm home (YouTube isn't my real job) there are times when it takes several days to run elements of the test, then it's compiled into a short video.

The block needs 4 to 5 days to fully cure, and I'm currently rotating 2 blocks. I really can't manage any more than that, going back to time and travel. If a block is out of spec, I'm back to square one.

More shots in a test only screw up the block and increase the possibility of "crossing the streams" like Ghostbusters. That would probably invalidate everything I'm trying to accomplish.

As expected, there were several calls for a re-test. If I did that with my second block, future projects, and there are many; get pushed back a week or greater. So, I did post a water jug test following this upload, link in description of that video; it runs about 3 minutes. I was only trying to prove my theory that the velocity envelope for this bullet was surpassed.

JW1178
09-02-2012, 14:04
It IS a pain in the arse. Each test requires approximately 10 hours of my day; chronograph, opening shots, review, test shot, followup, cleanup, gel melting, video production, upload, processing. Considering that I travel on business quite a bit and I'm buried in spreadsheets and email when I'm home (YouTube isn't my real job) there are times when it takes several days to run elements of the test, then it's compiled into a short video.

The block needs 4 to 5 days to fully cure, and I'm currently rotating 2 blocks. I really can't manage any more than that, going back to time and travel. If a block is out of spec, I'm back to square one.

More shots in a test only screw up the block and increase the possibility of "crossing the streams" like Ghostbusters. That would probably invalidate everything I'm trying to accomplish.

As expected, there were several calls for a re-test. If I did that with my second block, future projects, and there are many; get pushed back a week or greater. So, I did post a water jug test following this upload, link in description of that video; it runs about 3 minutes. I was only trying to prove my theory that the velocity envelope for this bullet was surpassed.

Hey, thank you for your tests and videos. The time, money, and know-how and you are kind enough to take the time to share it with us. Thank you again.

Can you tell us what the next test will be, or am I going to have to wait?

TWS G26
09-02-2012, 14:43
Hey, thank you for your tests and videos. The time, money, and know-how and you are kind enough to take the time to share it with us. Thank you again.

Can you tell us what the next test will be, or am I going to have to wait?

I don't have any 10mm in the house today, other than some FMJ. Looking at .40 HST 165 gr this weekend if the rain stops, followed by something in .357 Mag, a .40 Gold Dot, then possibly a 9mm Black Talon. The only other Underwood test on the horizon is their Gold Dot in .357 SIG. Hoping to get some rifle and shotgun tests in as the weather cools.

G33Man
09-02-2012, 14:46
Another nod to your time and effort. It is done in very clear and concise layman's terms...with excellent camera work. Thanks!

swinokur
09-02-2012, 15:31
It IS a pain in the arse. Each test requires approximately 10 hours of my day; chronograph, opening shots, review, test shot, followup, cleanup, gel melting, video production, upload, processing. Considering that I travel on business quite a bit and I'm buried in spreadsheets and email when I'm home (YouTube isn't my real job) there are times when it takes several days to run elements of the test, then it's compiled into a short video.

The block needs 4 to 5 days to fully cure, and I'm currently rotating 2 blocks. I really can't manage any more than that, going back to time and travel. If a block is out of spec, I'm back to square one.

More shots in a test only screw up the block and increase the possibility of "crossing the streams" like Ghostbusters. That would probably invalidate everything I'm trying to accomplish.

As expected, there were several calls for a re-test. If I did that with my second block, future projects, and there are many; get pushed back a week or greater. So, I did post a water jug test following this upload, link in description of that video; it runs about 3 minutes. I was only trying to prove my theory that the velocity envelope for this bullet was surpassed.

I stand corrected sir. Thank you for all your pro bono work.

packinaglock
09-02-2012, 15:53
I don't have any 10mm in the house today, other than some FMJ. Looking at .40 HST 165 gr this weekend if the rain stops, followed by something in .357 Mag, a .40 Gold Dot, then possibly a 9mm Black Talon. The only other Underwood test on the horizon is their Gold Dot in .357 SIG. Hoping to get some rifle and shotgun tests in as the weather cools.

I look forward to every test, IMO the best on the web. I damn near get a chub every time I see a new ammo test come up on my e-mail. Yea I'm getting old my life is getting to the point where things like that excite me. :embarassed:

TWS G26
09-02-2012, 16:29
I look forward to every test, IMO the best on the web. I damn near get a chub every time I see a new ammo test come up on my e-mail. Yea I'm getting old my life is getting to the point where things like that excite me. :embarassed:

I'll try to block that image out of my mind the next time I'm working on a test, LOL!

avenues165
09-02-2012, 19:07
I don't have any 10mm in the house today, other than some FMJ. Looking at .40 HST 165 gr this weekend if the rain stops, followed by something in .357 Mag, a .40 Gold Dot, then possibly a 9mm Black Talon. The only other Underwood test on the horizon is their Gold Dot in .357 SIG. Hoping to get some rifle and shotgun tests in as the weather cools.

I eagerly await the results of the Federal 165gr HST and the Underwood GD in 357 sig.

Your tests are great stuff! Very consistent, very well done. Thank you for all of your hard work on these tests!

SDGlock23
09-02-2012, 20:18
Time for some .45 Super testing! Don't need a new gun, just put in a heavier recoil spring. I loaded some 200gr XTPs to 1300 fps. Underwoods offers some .45 Super too.

The 10mm test was cool. My one complaint about the 10mm is that driving .40 cal bullets designed for typical .40 S&W speeds isn't always a good thing. But the 180gr GD did pretty well in that regard. I've got some of this ammo too, and the 155gr version, seems like good stuff.

I wouldn't mind seeing the 135gr .40 S&W Underwoods has at 1500 fps tested, or the 10mm version that does 1600fps. At least you won't have to dig deep for it, penetration will be horrible, but destruction should be impressive.

WinterWizard
09-02-2012, 23:31
Bullet failure technically

Actually, no. That is a Speer bullet for .40 S&W for a velocity maximum of 1295 fps, I believe. The only failure is on the part of Underwood in loading it beyond its maximum.

That being said, the bullet still technically held together.

unit1069
09-03-2012, 00:00
I'm impressed. It seems like Underwood is doing all the right things.

I don't need a 10m in my current situation but if I ever do I'm convinced it is one bad*ss caliber, and in a hi-capacity Glock it's awesome.

DeLo
09-06-2012, 21:14
Interesting.

I'd never carry that load. It's way too hot and the bullet is obviously being pushed beyond it's design limits. Back off the velocity by 75 to 100 fps and maybe they will have something.

Besides, I'd be willing to bet there would be repeatable overpenetration issues with this load in the real world.

At least Underwood hit the advertised velocity mark for a change! :rofl:

I completely agree with the reduction in velocity. I would like to see this done for a stock G29

swinokur
09-07-2012, 05:18
Use the 1240 FPS DE load.

Yankee2718
09-07-2012, 06:20
I'd use that load. 17 inches and massive energy transfer. Sounds good to me. I was to see some gel tests with standard nosler and Sierra jhps. The tn9 tests are great. He does a great job.

harrygunner
09-07-2012, 20:09
I don't have any 10mm in the house today, ...

'TWS G26' PM me where to mail and I'll send you some Underwood 180gr XTP 10mm ammo.

TWS G26
09-08-2012, 17:47
'TWS G26' PM me where to mail and I'll send you some Underwood 180gr XTP 10mm ammo.


Sorry, but not able to accept ammo donations. I have enough purchased ammo on hand to get me into 2013. I'm getting 30 to 40, sometimes 50 or more requests per day (not just ammo donation offers), and I have to maintain some control over this to have any measure of sanity. It's just a part-time gig.

Thanks for the offer.

dkf
09-08-2012, 18:51
Actually, no. That is a Speer bullet for .40 S&W for a velocity maximum of 1295 fps, I believe. The only failure is on the part of Underwood in loading it beyond its maximum.

That being said, the bullet still technically held together.

This^^^

The test results were as I expected. The same bullet is usually going sub 1050fps in .40 and designed to perform well at that velocity. The jacket held on for dear life however it held and weight retention IMO was more than acceptable.

harrygunner
09-08-2012, 19:32
... not able to accept ammo donations.

Appreciate the effort that goes into such videos. We all benefit from your work. Just wanted to give back.

Thanks.

Wolf Spyder
04-30-2013, 12:45
That is awesome. I would like to see the same test using the same Underwood ammo but with the Hornady XTP bullet that they also offer.

My guess is it would penetrate at least 20''. That XTP isn't known for expansion...

I'd like to see the 155gr and 165gr Gold Dots tested as well.

The Hornady XTP's do really well.

AMMO TEST: 10mm Underwood 200 gr Hornady XTP JHP - YouTube

spcwes
04-30-2013, 15:05
Retention of 177grs at that velocity might be technically called failure but in my eyes that bullet is the only one capable of that "much" of success. That might be one of the most effected rounds I have seen tested in a while, makes me want to shoot more 10mm. If only I could win the powerball......

Wolf Spyder
04-30-2013, 16:38
Retention of 177grs at that velocity might be technically called failure but in my eyes that bullet is the only one capable of that "much" of success. That might be one of the most effected rounds I have seen tested in a while, makes me want to shoot more 10mm. If only I could win the Powerball......

My thoughts exactly...
...capable of that "much" of success.

I currently carry my own Gold Dot hand-loads... 165 gr. Gold Dots in front of 10.2 gr. IMR 800-X.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v378/Wolf_Spyder/IMG_0406enhancedsmall.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v378/Wolf_Spyder/IMG_0440enhancedsmall.jpg

purrrfect 10
04-30-2013, 19:12
Great Video, My wife bough me 150 rounds of this for christmas Yes I asked her to. Is what I now carry in my G20. I will carry proudly and take that extra split second if possible of what is behind my target if the going ever got tough. I was very impressed with this Underwood ammo. I want to get some of their 200 grain for woods carry.

Thank you again Awesome video:perfect10: all the WAY

sgtbones
04-30-2013, 19:57
Wolfy what's the fps on the 165 gr ? Also those are good pics of your g20. :supergrin:

Wolf Spyder
04-30-2013, 21:03
Wolfy what's the fps on the 165 gr ? Also those are good pics of your g20. :supergrin:

Not sure, I figure it is close to 1350 give or take... but that is only a guess. We have finally purchased a good chrono so I will chrono them in a few weeks to have a solid number.

Stephenthesuave
04-30-2013, 23:39
I got my 180 GD loads over the chrono last weekend and I'm getting an average of 1240 from the stock barrel. 1330 from my 6".

These are the book max blue dot loads from the Speer manual.

SCmasterblaster
05-01-2013, 08:26
I'm waiting for the 45 ACP 230 gold dot +P test, hint, hint.

The .45 ACP doesn't have to expand to be effective. It is already at .45 caliber.

happie2shoot
05-01-2013, 16:40
The .45 ACP doesn't have to expand to be effective. It is already at .45 caliber.

If it does not have a proper nose shape it won't be that good,
think large flat point.

SCmasterblaster
05-02-2013, 05:56
If it does not have a proper nose shape it won't be that good,
think large flat point.

When I carry my SA M1911A1, I use 255gr LSWCs at 850 FPS.

vulcan71
05-09-2013, 15:40
Thanks to cowboy1964 and everyone else who contributed to this thread as I have just purchased some Underwood Ammo 10mm 200gr XTP ammunition if it were not for this thread I would not have been able to buy the ammo. I guess I got lucky as everything else I looked at was out of stock on the site.

Dreamaster
05-16-2013, 13:02
I HATE THE PHRASE BULLET FAILURE!!! I mean... you can hear the almost disbelief, he is choking in his voice upon seeing the damage that HANDGUN round did to that gel and then says "Well, mixed feelings here because technically the bullet failed." GIVE ME A BREAK! It had mild jacket separation. It did not "fail" its intended function in devastating its target. It did not fail to penetrate sufficiently.

sgtbones
05-16-2013, 14:16
Guys do you think Underwoods 180gr DE load at 1240 fps perform better or the same.

TWS G26
05-16-2013, 16:52
I HATE THE PHRASE BULLET FAILURE!!! I mean... you can hear the almost disbelief, he is choking in his voice upon seeing the damage that HANDGUN round did to that gel and then says "Well, mixed feelings here because technically the bullet failed." GIVE ME A BREAK! It had mild jacket separation. It did not "fail" its intended function in devastating its target. It did not fail to penetrate sufficiently.

Mild jacket separation? The bullet was compromised due to excessive velocity, driven past it's design envelope; regardless of the damage.

I will add that I made a necklace out of it and it does a great job of attracting biker chicks.

Wolf Spyder
05-16-2013, 22:34
Mild jacket separation? The bullet was compromised due to excessive velocity, driven past it's design envelope; regardless of the damage.

I will add that I made a necklace out of it and it does a great job of attracting biker chicks.


That is awesome. (mentally picture Homer Simpson drooling) "Biker Chicks..."


I still contend that the Gold Dot in your test did not fail. A meteorite by any other name, is still a frick'n Meteorite !! A massive hunk of jagged metal, ripping through muscle, fat, bone, and organ...

Mwinter
05-23-2013, 16:57
I'm a longtime fanboy of the 10mm. When I was allowed to carry the 10 on duty, I 'settled' on a 180gr GDHP @ 1200fps for several reasons. It worked well in both my G20 and several Deltas, was controllable enough that onehand/weakhand shooting was not compromised, and recoil was tamed to the point that my personal shooting (split times, recoveries, rapidfire strings, etc.) was not downgraded.

Also, importantly, this spec took advantage of the 10mm's extended range and penetration, while still allowing the 180gr GDHP to do nice broad textbook mushrooms instead of the 'evil comet' shown in the video (and in the DT standard 180gr loads in ran in gel back then). It duplicated the wonderfully consistent but discontinued ProLoad offering, with less muzzle flash.

Your mileage may vary.

As for overpenetration dangers....the load I currently issue at my agency (.40 165gr Federal Bonded Tactical) routinely exits 16" gel blocks, and you can watch the pill as it bounces downrange. Objectively, they look like they are being thrown by hand. The most important thing is that the load performs consistently as advertised, and meets mission requirements. It's a soft accurate shooter in our issued G22s, and is recovered at .55-60 usually.

But it ain't no 10mm, dammit. If my finances ever get unfudged, I will have another custom Delta as my 'BBQ gun'.

pisc1024
05-24-2013, 00:44
I HATE THE PHRASE BULLET FAILURE!!! I mean... you can hear the almost disbelief, he is choking in his voice upon seeing the damage that HANDGUN round did to that gel and then says "Well, mixed feelings here because technically the bullet failed." GIVE ME A BREAK! It had mild jacket separation. It did not "fail" its intended function in devastating its target. It did not fail to penetrate sufficiently.

How well do you think that bullet would have performed if it came in contact with an intermediate barrier like a windshield? I would bet that you would get pretty crappy performance out of that bullet then. That's the problem with these boutique ammo companies who only give a crap about velocity. Yes the bullet will technically perform, but it is not optimum, if it was Speer would load it to those velocities.

spcwes
05-24-2013, 07:16
How well do you think that bullet would have performed if it came in contact with an intermediate barrier like a windshield? I would bet that you would get pretty crappy performance out of that bullet then. That's the problem with these boutique ammo companies who only give a crap about velocity. Yes the bullet will technically perform, but it is not optimum, if it was Speer would load it to those velocities.

I don't think it would have any issues with the hard barriers. In my testing of the "boutique" ammo companies normally the ammo and manufacturing process are of the best quality as their reputation depends on it.

Also during my testing with the hyper velocity bullets that are pushed way past their design they generally fail only in soft medium not on hard. In some cases hitting a hard surface might actually cause the bullet to stay together better.

Also to note, their might not be a better bullet designed to push these speeds. When we tested the 124gr gold dot bullet mated to the hot 357sig load years ago we were getting around 1560-1585fps if I recall correctly with a bullet designed for 1200fps. You could call the bullets a failure because they over expended but still had 99%+ weight retention.

If a bullet does anything it is "not designed to do" it is technically a failure. So with the 124gr load turning into a fat dime it failed. Does that mean that the 357sig load was at that point bad? Hell no.......

I will say it again, in my years of testing and shooting the 10mm load tested here is pretty amazing. If I carried a 10mm currently I would have NO issues with this round and would instantly make it my preferred all purpose round.

rustytxrx
05-24-2013, 11:17
Hi ya'll this is Mary Lou. I just wanted to tell ya that them 10 mm ain't no good. all us pigs recommend ya carry or hunt with a .380 auto. now that there gun is a real man's gun.

AND be sure and not use that cheap ammo from Underwood. that 200 gr just bounces off us :rofl:

http://i1340.photobucket.com/albums/o727/rustytxrx/MDGC0019_zpsc6da9355.jpg

pisc1024
05-24-2013, 13:17
I don't think it would have any issues with the hard barriers. In my testing of the "boutique" ammo companies normally the ammo and manufacturing process are of the best quality as their reputation depends on it.

Also during my testing with the hyper velocity bullets that are pushed way past their design they generally fail only in soft medium not on hard. In some cases hitting a hard surface might actually cause the bullet to stay together better.

Also to note, their might not be a better bullet designed to push these speeds. When we tested the 124gr gold dot bullet mated to the hot 357sig load years ago we were getting around 1560-1585fps if I recall correctly with a bullet designed for 1200fps. You could call the bullets a failure because they over expended but still had 99%+ weight retention.

If a bullet does anything it is "not designed to do" it is technically a failure. So with the 124gr load turning into a fat dime it failed. Does that mean that the 357sig load was at that point bad? Hell no.......

I will say it again, in my years of testing and shooting the 10mm load tested here is pretty amazing. If I carried a 10mm currently I would have NO issues with this round and would instantly make it my preferred all purpose round.
Care to share any of your testing? I am interested in any testing out there.

Angry Fist
05-24-2013, 13:52
My carry load. Excellent.

spcwes
05-29-2013, 07:40
Care to share any of your testing? I am interested in any testing out there.

Funny thing about that comment is at one time all my testing was posted here on GT but I didn't have access to a highspeed video camera back then I had to use cameras and still shots.

I actually searched but could not find it. It was back when we actually were able to talk to Mike over at DT and he responded lol.

That being said, during that time (2001-2005ish?) the best bullet on the market was by far the Gold Dot. If I remember correctly the only other high speed design was the Ranger T and it was not bonded and no one outside Winchester loaded it. I will look on a old hd I have if I have time this week and see if I can find any of it.

The worst things we put the bullets through if I remember was car glass, especially newer model windshields, something about a soft plastic barrier made some of the bullets start to come apart at high velocities (over what bullet was designed for).

I can tell you without doubt of any kind the Gold Dot is one of the best bullet designs for SD handgun rounds period if not the best on the market.

The round tested here did everything you want a SD bullet to do. The jacket coming off after it penetrates as deep as needed with all the power that this round offers is fine. Jacket seperation is technically a failure but if you get 10-12" of penetration and you retained 98% of bullet weight you have a winner.

I can say this, I love ballistics and study them as a hobby and have for a long time. When I watched this test it was exciting for even me. If you carry a 10mm this is an amazing choice for a load.

Edited to add: One of the benefits of super bullet design and high speeds that people sometimes fail to think about is how the mechanical process of the bullet works. A slower expanding bullet also tends to expand slower.

This bullet most likely expanded, possibly fully expanded at about 2"-3" mark meaning you had a 180gr bullet fully expanded into a horror movie type shape that then pushed past 16".

It is kind of mind blowing if you think about the success of this particular loading. This bullet fully expanded, hitting with a very decent amount of weight and sectional density and then "pushed" just under 19" deep. Think jagged quarter flying at 1300fps and smashing your day. If I carried a 10mm I would carry this round, and probably only this round. I feel that comfortable with those results, not sure what else to say.

Comedian
06-02-2013, 01:20
Interesting.

I'd never carry that load. It's way too hot and the bullet is obviously being pushed beyond it's design limits. Back off the velocity by 75 to 100 fps and maybe they will have something.

Besides, I'd be willing to bet there would be repeatable overpenetration issues with this load in the real world.

At least Underwood hit the advertised velocity mark for a change! :rofl:

All good points. And why i would rather just go with 40 S&W for a defense pistol, if i were going to switch from 9mm.

Wolf Spyder
06-02-2013, 11:14
Besides, I'd be willing to bet there would be repeatable over-penetration issues with this load in the real world.





All good points. And why i would rather just go with 40 S&W for a defense pistol, if i were going to switch from 9mm.


I know that several posts have confronted the issue of over-penetration brought by NEOH212, but it stands repeating. Over-penetration is not an issue. There have been dozens of studies done over the last 30 years that shows on average that only 2 of every 10 shots hit the intended target in a shoot-out. That means that 8 out of 10 bullets (on average) strike something other than the intended target. This is a much greater problem than the very remote chance of a bullet striking the target and then passing through the target and striking a bystander.

I guess it is like being on an airplane and being afraid that you are going to drown. You're worried about the wrong thing.

Comedian there is nothing wrong with either the 9mm or the .40S&W. Both have a long history of killing people. Here in Ohio there was an individual who had several large wild animals such as Lions, Tigers, & even a Bear (oh my). Anyway, this guy decided to turn all the animals loose, and then commit suicide. After a while law enforcement was called and one of the first officers on the scene found the dead land owner being eaten by one of the Tigers. The officer used his patrol rifle to kill the big cat. He then placed the rifle back in the patrol car and went to radio in what he had found when he was surprised by a "Brown" Bear. Some reports say "Grizzly". At any rate, the officer stopped the charging Bear with his duty side arm, a .40S&W JHP.

Would I carry a .40S&W JHP in Bear county? NO!! The .40S&W provides about 400 Ft Lbs. of energy. A full power (not nuclear power) 10mm provides about 600 Ft. Lbs. of energy. My Nuclear power 10mm loads provide around 720-ish Ft. Lbs. of energy. When I lived in the "Golden Corner" of South Carolina, Black Bear country, I carried my Glock 20 with my 10mm Nuclear handloads.

I like the 10mm because it works so well for such a wide variety of problems. Everything from Bad guys to medium sized predators and from bad breath distances all the way out to and slightly past 100 yards. I like my Glock because it has 15 rounds in the magazine. Very hard to beat.

SDGlock23
06-02-2013, 20:15
Would I carry a .40S&W JHP in Bear county? NO!! The .40S&W provides about 400 Ft Lbs. of energy. A full power (not nuclear power) 10mm provides about 600 Ft. Lbs. of energy. My Nuclear power 10mm loads provide around 720-ish Ft. Lbs. of energy. When I lived in the "Golden Corner" of South Carolina, Black Bear country, I carried my Glock 20 with my 10mm Nuclear handloads.

I can understand someone liking the 10mm, but what I'm not too sure of is why you compare a standard .40 S&W to a nuclear 10mm. Figuring it out here, 400 ft-lbs is a 180gr bullet at 1000 fps, and 720-ish ft-lbs is a 180gr bullet around 1350 fps. My G23 with 4" barrel will shoot a 180gr hardcast at 1225 fps for 600 ft-lbs, a little over 1300 fps from a G35, and the same load from a 6" G24 will average almost 1350 fps.

I'm not seeing much difference between them really, and no animal will know the difference. Any of those will punch a hole clean through a black bear, hog, etc. Now, while I'm not going to say the .40 S&W is THE preferred black bear cartridge, neither is the 10mm for that matter.

Wolf Spyder
06-03-2013, 15:33
I can understand someone liking the 10mm, but what I'm not too sure of is why you compare a standard .40 S&W to a nuclear 10mm.

Well, the .40S&W is a good cartridge. However, it is for the same reason most folks buy a .357 Magnum revolver and then shoot a wide variety of .38 Special and .357 Magnum loads through it. It gives them more choices.

The .40S&W has two limiting factors. The first is the shorter cartridge case length, and the second is the pressure limits. The 10mm gives the handloader more room on both counts.

So, why compare the .40S&W to the 10mm Auto...? I'm not. My post stated that the 9mm and .40S&W are fine cartridges.

If I were to compare the .40S&W to the 10mm Auto it would be like comparing the .38 Special to the .357 Magnum. Handguns chambered for the .38 Special are slightly smaller than those chambered for the .357 Magnum. The same is true of the .40S&W vs. the 10mm Auto.

The .357 Magnum is more powerful than the .38 Special, just the 10mm Auto is more powerful than the .40S&W.




Figuring it out here, 400 ft-lbs is a 180gr bullet at 1000 fps, and 720-ish ft-lbs is a 180gr bullet around 1350 fps. My G23 with 4" barrel will shoot a 180gr hardcast at 1225 fps for 600 ft-lbs, a little over 1300 fps from a G35, and the same load from a 6" G24 will average almost 1350 fps.

And the same can be done with the 10mm. While longer barrels provides even greater velocity and energy ratings for the .40S&W it will do the same thing to the 10mm. The 10mm will out pace the .40S&W in every way.




I'm not seeing much difference between them really, and no animal will know the difference. Any of those will punch a hole clean through a black bear, hog, etc. Now, while I'm not going to say the .40 S&W is THE preferred black bear cartridge, neither is the 10mm for that matter.

And that is fine, that you don't see much difference. Your entire argument has been why your .40S&W cartridge is just as good as... That is your opinion, and I don't have a problem with that.

SDGlock23
06-03-2013, 20:14
Well, the .40S&W is a good cartridge. However, it is for the same reason most folks buy a .357 Magnum revolver and then shoot a wide variety of .38 Special and .357 Magnum loads through it. It gives them more choices.

The .40S&W has two limiting factors. The first is the shorter cartridge case length, and the second is the pressure limits. The 10mm gives the handloader more room on both counts.

So, why compare the .40S&W to the 10mm Auto...? I'm not. My post stated that the 9mm and .40S&W are fine cartridges.

If I were to compare the .40S&W to the 10mm Auto it would be like comparing the .38 Special to the .357 Magnum. Handguns chambered for the .38 Special are slightly smaller than those chambered for the .357 Magnum. The same is true of the .40S&W vs. the 10mm Auto.

The .357 Magnum is more powerful than the .38 Special, just the 10mm Auto is more powerful than the .40S&W.

And the same can be done with the 10mm. While longer barrels provides even greater velocity and energy ratings for the .40S&W it will do the same thing to the 10mm. The 10mm will out pace the .40S&W in every way.


And that is fine, that you don't see much difference. Your entire argument has been why your .40S&W cartridge is just as good as... That is your opinion, and I don't have a problem with that.


Your mindset seems to indicate that the .40 and 9mm are closer than the 40 and 10mm, that the 10mm is on a completely different level, which is false. Seems to me you did compare it to the .40 by comparing a typical .40 to a hot 10mm.

The 10mm technically does have a higher pressure ceiling, a whole 7% higher than the .40. In all reality, the 10mm isn't any stronger than the .40 S&W because it doesn't have any extra support, rather some feel 10mm brass has less support and is weaker than .40 S&W brass because it lacks material in the base of the case due to it's large primer pocket. There isn't any reason the .40 isn't 40K capable like the 357 Sig.

It's somewhat misleading to state that the 10mm is to the .40 like the .357 Mag is to the 38 Special. Sure the 10mm is more powerful than the .40, but not to the extent that the 357 Mag is more powerful than the 38 Spcl. The 10mm should be faster, but not substantially faster, and it's simple to see why, pressure. The 357 Mag isn't more powerful than the 38 just because it's longer and can hold more powder, that's only part of it, the main reason is because it can operate at over twice the pressure (17K vs 35K) which is why there is such a large jump in velocity. Now if the 357 Mag operated at the same pressure as the 38, it would still be faster, but by a much smaller margin.

This is what you have with the 10mm vs. .40. Assuming both are loaded to similar pressure, using the same powder and bullet in similar length barrels, the 10mm will be faster. However depending on bullet, not much more than 100-150 fps difference. I would accept a 300-400 fps advantage if the 10mm operated at significantly higher pressures, but it doesn't, well unless somebody intentionally loads it that way. The 10mm is a good cartridge, even if it is generally over hyped by many.

rustytxrx
06-03-2013, 21:17
......... Any of those will punch a hole clean through a black bear, hog, etc. Now, while I'm not going to say the .40 S&W is THE preferred black bear cartridge, neither is the 10mm for that matter.

I can tell you this is not true for pigs and that is a fact. At least with 200 gr hp 10mm. Pass through on 150 # pig is one in four for me. If you take a grown pig on broadside it would be a lot less then that. Near side leg forward, a little quartering away, heart shot will give you a exit wound, if the pig does not twist, move or step. 200#+ pigs you better take a good shot and not miss the spot or have a hot 41 mag.

Wolf Spyder
06-04-2013, 01:05
Your mindset seems to indicate that the .40 and 9mm are closer than the 40 and 10mm, that the 10mm is on a completely different level, which is false. Seems to me you did compare it to the .40 by comparing a typical .40 to a hot 10mm.

The 9mm, .40S&W, and .45ACP have been "standardized" (so to speak) by the FBI testing and the IWBA Handgun Specification Package. Most of the self defense loads offered today will give the shooter between 350 and 420-ish Ft. Lbs. of energy. They are designed around a barrier-blind bonded bullet. So in my opinion there is not much difference between the 9mm and .40S&W as far as the Full Power Self Defense cartridges go.

The Full Power 10mm loads average between 550 and 600 Ft. Lbs. of energy (give or take). This makes it stand above the .40S&W cartridge. Then you have companies like Underwood Ammo that offer factory Self Defense loads that generate over 700 Ft. Lbs. of energy. Compare this to the Really Hot .40S&W +P loads from Underwood that only generate just a hair over 500 Ft. Lbs. of energy. These .40 S&W +P loads are very "Snappy" to say the least, and shooting controlled pairs is difficult.

The .40S&W just is not on the same level as the 10mm.

This not even taking into account some of the Nuclear 10mm +P+ loads I have seen that generate 800+ Ft. Lbs. of energy. Don't get me wrong, I won't / can't shoot them in my Glock 20 because the recoil is abusive and I can not shoot controlled pairs. However, I can shoot the Full Power 10mm (600-ish Ft. Lbs. of energy) quite well. My pet handload in 10mm is a little on the "brisk" side of things but still controllable.

When shooting the Underwood "Delta Elite" loading in the Gold Dot or when shooting the Winchester 175 gr. Silvertips I can shoot slightly better then most of the local law enforcement "shooters" (The guys and gals who like to shoot and take the time to practice).

Yes, I have an inflated Ego because of it. :wavey:

...and like I said above;


"...that is fine that you don't see much difference [between the .40S&W and the 10mm Auto]. Your entire argument has been why your .40S&W cartridge is just as good as... That is your opinion, and I don't have a problem with that."

SDGlock23
06-04-2013, 10:41
I can tell you this is not true for pigs and that is a fact. At least with 200 gr hp 10mm. Pass through on 150 # pig is one in four for me. If you take a grown pig on broadside it would be a lot less then that. Near side leg forward, a little quartering away, heart shot will give you a exit wound, if the pig does not twist, move or step. 200#+ pigs you better take a good shot and not miss the spot or have a hot 41 mag.

That's why I would choose hardcast, I'd rather have the added penetration.

SDGlock23
06-04-2013, 11:42
The 9mm, .40S&W, and .45ACP have been "standardized" (so to speak) by the FBI testing and the IWBA Handgun Specification Package. Most of the self defense loads offered today will give the shooter between 350 and 420-ish Ft. Lbs. of energy. They are designed around a barrier-blind bonded bullet. So in my opinion there is not much difference between the 9mm and .40S&W as far as the Full Power Self Defense cartridges go.

I understand that, and I agree that there is a standard by which many, or most all of the JHP bullets in these calibers are designed. They're intended to perform a certain way through several different types of media and they're all designed to perform similarly. Federal makes a 180gr 10mm Hydrashok, yet it's not full power, or rather full potential. In the same way, no factory ammo, be it 9mm, .40 or .45 is loaded to it's full potential either.

The Full Power 10mm loads average between 550 and 600 Ft. Lbs. of energy (give or take). This makes it stand above the .40S&W cartridge. Then you have companies like Underwood Ammo that offer factory Self Defense loads that generate over 700 Ft. Lbs. of energy. Compare this to the Really Hot .40S&W +P loads from Underwood that only generate just a hair over 500 Ft. Lbs. of energy. These .40 S&W +P loads are very "Snappy" to say the least, and shooting controlled pairs is difficult.

The .40S&W just is not on the same level as the 10mm..

To be fair, Underwoods should mark their 10mm as +P also. Why? I've pulled Underwood 10mm ammo (when I had a 10mm that is), and so have others and they use over book max charges of powder, even upwards of 15% over. These charges are going to take it over the 10mm's 37.5K psi rating, so why not label it as a 10mm +P?

Look at your Underwood comment above. Yes Underwood does have 10mm loads that exceed 700 ft-lbs, but they also have at least one .40 S&W load that generates around 675 ft-lbs. I never said the .40 was ultimately more powerful, but I do say there's not a significant amount of difference between them. Is the .40 on the same level as the 10mm? Well no if you're talking about equal velocity. But is it on the same level in the sense that whatever the 10mm will kill the .40 will too? You bet! And keep in mind I'm not talking about a standard .40 vs a warm 10mm, I'm talking a warm .40 vs a warm 10mm.

Many agree that the 10mm really offers nothing extra in terms of self defense, so why do people think it holds a huge advantage out in the field? Assuming proper shot placement and proper bullet selection, what animal out there, for example, will fall to a 180gr at 1300 fps from a G20 that won't also fall to a 180gr at 1200 from a G22? None. Or will a 180gr at 1400 from a 6" 10mm work whereas a 180gr at 1300 fps from a Glock 35 won't? There is no situation where the 10mm is fully capable that the .40 S&W isn't capable at all, none. People seem to think that way though.

Wolf Spyder
06-04-2013, 18:34
To be fair, Underwood's should mark their 10mm as +P also.

SAAMI does not have a +P or +P+ load data for the 10mm Auto. A common rule of thumb is that +P is equal to about a 10% increase in the Pressure rating, and +P+ is an average increase of between 20% to 30%.

SAAMI lists +P Pressure ratings for the following cartridges;

.38 Auto (later the +P cartridge was relabeled the .38 Super Auto)
.38 Special
9mm
.45 ACP
.45 Colt
.257 Roberts








I never said the .40 was ultimately more powerful, but I do say there's not a significant amount of difference between them.

I said in my post above, that this is your opinion, and I don't have any problems with you feeling this way. Granted, that still doesn't make it true... :tongueout:





Is the .40 on the same level as the 10mm? Well no if you're talking about equal velocity. But is it on the same level in the sense that whatever the 10mm will kill the .40 will too? You bet!

This is a misnomer. The same can be said of almost any cartridge. I can kill deer with a .22 Long Rifle so the same can be said of that cartridge as well. The Indians killed Buffalo with primitive bow & arrows so the same can be said of those. Looky there, everything is just as powerful as the Mythical 10mm Auto. Feel better? :rofl:






Many agree that the 10mm really offers nothing extra in terms of self defense, so why do people think it holds a huge advantage out in the field?

That's easy. The .45 ACP crowd believes that their favorite cartridge is the ultimate man stopper. However, the 10mm Auto will strike a bad guy with more energy after traveling 100 yards, than the .45 ACP can at point blank range. So from that point of view, the 10mm Auto carries mythical powers not unlike the Hammer of Thor.

Can the .40 S&W travel 100 yards and hit the bad guy with more energy than the .45 ACP at point blank range? I think not.

Class dismissed. :wavey:

bac1023
06-04-2013, 20:31
How powerful is it?

It's so powerful the jacket and core almost separated (this just doesn't happen with Gold Dots, not through denim)!

It's so powerful you don't measure the expanded diameter, you measure the stretched length!

10mm Ammo Gel Test: 180 gr Gold Dot (Underwood Ammo) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sl_n_miLfbY&feature=g-all-u)

Thanks for the info...

pisc1024
06-04-2013, 22:18
SAAMI does not have a +P or +P+ load data for the 10mm Auto. A common rule of thumb is that +P is equal to about a 10% increase in the Pressure rating, and +P+ is an average increase of between 20% to 30%.

SAAMI lists +P Pressure ratings for the following cartridges;

.38 Auto (later the +P cartridge was relabeled the .38 Super Auto)
.38 Special
9mm
.45 ACP
.45 Colt
.257 Roberts













SAAMI doesn't have a +p rating for .40 S&W, yet underwood has that listed here: http://www.underwoodammo.com/40sandw.aspx

That's one 135gr, two 155gr, one 165gr and one 180 gr. I think that SDGlock23's point was a good one ref. the 10mm.




That's easy. The .45 ACP crowd believes that their favorite cartridge is the ultimate man stopper. However, the 10mm Auto will strike a bad guy with more energy after traveling 100 yards, than the .45 ACP can at point blank range. So from that point of view, the 10mm Auto carries mythical powers not unlike the Hammer of Thor.

Can the .40 S&W travel 100 yards and hit the bad guy with more energy than the .45 ACP at point blank range? I think not.

Class dismissed. :wavey:





Class dismissed?? WTF??? I think that you saying "hammer of thor" in reference to any pistol makes any statement you say questionable at best, please tell me your joking man.

Wolf Spyder
06-05-2013, 01:18
SAAMI doesn't have a +p rating for .40 S&W, yet underwood has that listed here: http://www.underwoodammo.com/40sandw.aspx

That's one 135gr, two 155gr, one 165gr and one 180 gr. I think that SDGlock23's point was a good one ref. the 10mm.

SAAMI does not "Officially" recognize the .40 S&W +P. Just because a manufacturer uses the nomenclature doesn't mean it "Officially" exists.





Class dismissed?? WTF??? I think that you saying "hammer of thor" in reference to any pistol makes any statement you say questionable at best, please tell me your joking man.

Yes, I am being persnickety, flippant, sarcastic... a whole number of terms that all mean I am being a Smart-ass. This guy and his .40 S&W Zealotry kinda reminds me of the guys who try to tell you that their bushmaster / dpms, or what-ever-cheap-ass plinker is just as good as a Colt LE6920, Daniel Defense DDM4, BCM, or Noveski Combat Ready Hard Use AR15.

If that is your opinion, more power to ya. In my world, bushmaster / dpms AR15's are cheap plinkers and just do not stack up against a true Mil-Spec Hard Use Carbine. PERIOD. By the same token the .40 S&W is just not on the same level as the 10mm Auto. Just as the 10mm Auto is not on the same level as the 41 Magnum.

I was trying to be light-hearted about the whole thing. I have told this guy several times that if he believes the .40 S&W is on the same level as the 10mm Auto, good for him.

Enjoy that ocean front property in Montana.

4949shooter
06-05-2013, 03:32
Yes, Wolf was being facetious.

The bottom line here is, a 180 grain full metal jacket 10mm (.40) bullet at 1300 fps will penetrate more muscle tissue and bone than a 180 grain 10mm (.40) caliber bullet at 1050 fps. You can't argue this fact.

If that is good for you than go for it.

If you like the .40, which is a fine cartridge in its own right, than go with that.

But....the two are not the same.

SDGlock23
06-05-2013, 08:31
SAAMI does not have a +P or +P+ load data for the 10mm Auto. A common rule of thumb is that +P is equal to about a 10% increase in the Pressure rating, and +P+ is an average increase of between 20% to 30%.

SAAMI lists +P Pressure ratings for the following cartridges;

.38 Auto (later the +P cartridge was relabeled the .38 Super Auto)
.38 Special
9mm
.45 ACP
.45 Colt
.257 Roberts


Very good, there is no such thing as a 10mm +P, but then again there is no such thing as a .40 S&W +P either. That doesn't stop them from marketing a .40 +P does it? So when their 10mm ammo is indeed over pressure, why aren't they marketing their 10mm as +P too?


This is a misnomer. The same can be said of almost any cartridge. I can kill deer with a .22 Long Rifle so the same can be said of that cartridge as well. The Indians killed Buffalo with primitive bow & arrows so the same can be said of those. Looky there, everything is just as powerful as the Mythical 10mm Auto. Feel better? :rofl:



I guess maybe I do feel a little better, but I never compared the 10mm to a .22 or primitive bow/arrow, last I checked this was about the 10mm and .40 and how there really isn't that much difference, not whether you can toss a rock and kill a deer, which I'm sure you can.


That's easy. The .45 ACP crowd believes that their favorite cartridge is the ultimate man stopper. However, the 10mm Auto will strike a bad guy with more energy after traveling 100 yards, than the .45 ACP can at point blank range. So from that point of view, the 10mm Auto carries mythical powers not unlike the Hammer of Thor.

Can the .40 S&W travel 100 yards and hit the bad guy with more energy than the .45 ACP at point blank range? I think not.


Class dismissed. :wavey:

Aw man I'm a .45 guy too so what do I do?? Take 1200 fps muzzle velocity with a 180gr .40, easy enough. Say it loses 150 fps over 100yds, and that's just a guess, it might lose less, maybe a hair more, but let's say 150fps. That's 1050 fps or 440 ft-lbs at 100yds. A typical 230gr .45 doing 850 fps has 369 ft-lbs muzzle energy. Sure there are warmer loads, but to answer your question, yes a .40 can have more energy at 100yds than a .45 does at the muzzle.

SDGlock23
06-05-2013, 08:51
Yes, I am being persnickety, flippant, sarcastic... a whole number of terms that all mean I am being a Smart-ass. This guy and his .40 S&W Zealotry kinda reminds me of the guys who try to tell you that their bushmaster / dpms, or what-ever-cheap-ass plinker is just as good as a Colt LE6920, Daniel Defense DDM4, BCM, or Noveski Combat Ready Hard Use AR15.

If that is your opinion, more power to ya. In my world, bushmaster / dpms AR15's are cheap plinkers and just do not stack up against a true Mil-Spec Hard Use Carbine. PERIOD. By the same token the .40 S&W is just not on the same level as the 10mm Auto. Just as the 10mm Auto is not on the same level as the 41 Magnum.

I was trying to be light-hearted about the whole thing. I have told this guy several times that if he believes the .40 S&W is on the same level as the 10mm Auto, good for him.



Mr. .40 zealot here:

Hey no hard feelings man, I'm just attempting to shed a little light on the subject. I never said the 10mm sucked, I used to own a number of 10mm's, it's just that I found out that the added cost isn't worth the slight gain in velocity, which really isn't adding any deadliness. After all velocity is the only thing the 10mm has over the .40, and really not that much of it, because both the .40 and 10mm shoot the exact same size and weight bullets.

Now the .41 Mag, that's a fine cartridge. It shoots a bigger, heavier bullet faster than the 10mm can, so in all ways it's better than the 10mm. What that also tells me is that the 10mm and .40 have more in common than the 10mm and the .41 Magnum.

Let's keep this light hearted, I didn't intend to come off any other way. You know I never said the .40 and 10mm were identical and I'm not trying to portray the .40 as such, well unless you have a platform where you can long load the .40 to 10mm oal then in that case they are identical, but otherwise nah, they're not identical.

jvbronco
06-05-2013, 08:51
I will add that I made a necklace out of it and it does a great job of attracting biker chicks.

Haha hilarious. Thanks for all the tests sir!


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

spcwes
06-05-2013, 09:34
Mr. .40 zealot here:

Now the .41 Mag, that's a fine cartridge. It shoots a bigger, heavier bullet faster than the 10mm can, so in all ways it's better than the 10mm. What that also tells me is that the 10mm and .40 have more in common than the 10mm and the .41 Magnum.

Not trying to beat this dead horse anymore than it already has but isn’t this exactly what the 10mm does over the 40SW? Save the bigger bullet, it can and does shoot heavier bullets faster than the 40SW can. Unless we are talking stupid hot loads the 41 mag (unsure of barrel length) is not much different than the 10mm in a like loading. Just using Underwood ammo’s numbers their 41 mag loading shows 210gr at 1560fps and the 10mm in 200 at 1250 and the 220gr at 1200.

The HOT NUCLEAR 40SW +P in the 180gr config is at 1100 fps on the Underwood site so I am actually not sure exactly where you are trying to go with your discussion. By comparison the 10mm is shooting a 200gr bullet faster than the 40SW 180gr.

So in an attempt to bottem line this discussion I will ask a couple questions.

1. First off you like the 40SW and feel it is the round for you?

2. You feel the 40SW and will do exactly what the 10mm will do to a target?

3. Based on the answer to the second question you do not feel there is an edge to using the 10mm over the 40 SW?

Of course this is also light hearted and not intended to flame war, just curious.

Edited to add I have a Glock 22 on my hip right now. Pure ballistics discussion.

4949shooter
06-05-2013, 16:02
He either doesn't see it, or doesn't want to see it.

The .40 S&W and 10mm automatic are the same in his mind.

dkf
06-05-2013, 16:28
He either doesn't see it, or doesn't want to see it.

The .40 S&W and 10mm automatic are the same in his mind.

Kinda like all the 10mm guys whom think the 10mm is on the same level as the .41 mag.


The .40 just can't compete with the extra case capacity (more powder) of the 10mm. Especially with longer heavier bullets. It is what it is. As a service caliber say for LE the .40 edges out the 10mm IMO. Not in power, but because of the more manageable recoil and all the R&D the ammo companies put into making bullets that perform well at .40 velocities. The major ammo companies don't bother with 10mm and what 10mm ammo they do put out is usually loaded close to .40sw levels anyway.

Wolf Spyder
06-05-2013, 22:14
Aw man I'm a .45 guy too so what do I do?? Take 1200 fps muzzle velocity with a 180gr .40, easy enough. Say it loses 150 fps over 100yds, and that's just a guess, it might lose less, maybe a hair more, but let's say 150fps. That's 1050 fps or 440 ft-lbs at 100yds. A typical 230gr .45 doing 850 fps has 369 ft-lbs muzzle energy. Sure there are warmer loads, but to answer your question, yes a .40 can have more energy at 100yds than a .45 does at the muzzle.

Well, wrong again.

The Underwood .40 S&W +P 180grain Gold Dot is listed at 1100 fps / 484 Ft. Lbs. energy. My handy-dandy Bullet drop calculator says @ 100 yards this load will drop 11.25 inches from POA and delivers 944 fps / 356 Ft. Lbs. energy.

The 45 ACP @ 850 fps generates 369 Ft Lbs. energy, and the 45 ACP @ 900 fps generates 414 Ft Lbs. energy. So nope, your .40 S&W +P does not do what a 10mm Auto can do. :rofl:

The "standard pressure" Winchester 175 gr. Silvertip JHP @ 1290 fps generates 647 Ft. Lbs. of energy at the muzzle and at 100 yards has only 8 inches of drop @ 1060 fps generates 437 Ft. Lbs. energy.

While a handloaded 10mm Nuclear Power 10mm 180 grain Gold Dot @ 1400 fps generates 784 Ft. Lbs. energy at the muzzle and @ 100 yards has only 6.8 inches of drop @ 1100 fps generates 483 Ft. Lbs. energy.


Dude, just give up... the .40 S&W is not on the same level as the 10mm Auto.

4949shooter
06-06-2013, 04:20
Kinda like all the 10mm guys whom think the 10mm is on the same level as the .41 mag.


The .40 just can't compete with the extra case capacity (more powder) of the 10mm. Especially with longer heavier bullets. It is what it is. As a service caliber say for LE the .40 edges out the 10mm IMO. Not in power, but because of the more manageable recoil and all the R&D the ammo companies put into making bullets that perform well at .40 velocities. The major ammo companies don't bother with 10mm and what 10mm ammo they do put out is usually loaded close to .40sw levels anyway.

True. To get full power 10mm you have to go with a boutique manufacturer or roll your own.

For SD purposes though, there is nothing wrong with a 175 grain Silvertip at 1170 fps, or a 180 grain XTP at 1160. Still more powerful than a .40, but still too much for the average police department's officers to handle. Agree about the bullets also, though the XTP's and Gold Dots seem to be holding up fairly well up to the 1250 range.

SDGlock23
06-06-2013, 09:56
Not trying to beat this dead horse anymore than it already has but isnít this exactly what the 10mm does over the 40SW? Save the bigger bullet, it can and does shoot heavier bullets faster than the 40SW can. Unless we are talking stupid hot loads the 41 mag (unsure of barrel length) is not much different than the 10mm in a like loading. Just using Underwood ammoís numbers their 41 mag loading shows 210gr at 1560fps and the 10mm in 200 at 1250 and the 220gr at 1200.


Well I see what you're saying, but the 10mm doesn't shoot heavier bullets because the .40 can shoot any bullet the 10mm can, even the 220gr class. There are 300gr bullets available for the .41, that's my point. So in that regard no it doesn't shoot heavier bullets, it does have a velocity advantage which is what I mentioned above. Based on similar weight bullets (.41 Mag vs 10mm vs .40), there is more difference in velocity with a warm .41 Mag vs warm 10mm than there is between a warm 10mm and a warm .40 S&W.


The HOT NUCLEAR 40SW +P in the 180gr config is at 1100 fps on the Underwood site so I am actually not sure exactly where you are trying to go with your discussion. By comparison the 10mm is shooting a 200gr bullet faster than the 40SW 180gr.

I didn't say the 10mm couldn't shoot a heavier bullet faster than the .40 using a slightly lighter bullet, just as I said above the .40 can shoot those same heavier bullets too. Also, a 180gr .40 at 1100 isn't "HOT NUCLEAR". Depending on the powder it could be, but so could a 180gr at 900 fps. There are powders than can exceed 1100 fps (180gr) in a 3" barrel, so no I'm not going to accept that 1100 fps from a 4-4.5" is somehow the limit when I know better. For the record, since 10mm is likely UW's bread and butter, I have a feeling they load it a little warmer than they load their .40's.


So in an attempt to bottem line this discussion I will ask a couple questions.

1. First off you like the 40SW and feel it is the round for you?

Yeah I like it, but I like to shoot so I like other cartridges as well. I wouldn't even call the .40 my favorite, but yeah I like it.


2. You feel the 40SW and will do exactly what the 10mm will do to a target?

No. I never said it would do exactly what a 10mm will do based on the term "exact". The only way to say yes to that is if the numbers were identical. The .40 can be loaded to 10mm specs if you have the platform to long-load the .40 to 10mm length, but that's not an option with Glocks (mainly 1911 style .40's). At the same time, neither do I see a perceptible advantage to the 10mm either, since the difference between them isn't huge (although some define huge differently). I don't see the bump in speed the 10mm gives as being an answer for what the 100-150 fps slower .40 has already accomplished.


3. Based on the answer to the second question you do not feel there is an edge to using the 10mm over the 40 SW?


Well because the 10mm does have a little edge in velocity over the .40, it's going to shoot a little bit flatter. I don't see this as an absolute advantage because the .40 loaded warmly is flat enough shooting. Some claim it extends it's effective range, which has merit, but I also don't think it makes much difference because very few are going to attempt a shot beyond 50-75yds anyways. Also, due to the extra heft of the firearm, the 10mm is going to have slightly less perceived recoil assuming both are using warm loads from similar sized pistols.


Of course this is also light hearted and not intended to flame war, just curious.

Edited to add I have a Glock 22 on my hip right now. Pure ballistics discussion.

The G22 is a good choice, a G35 would have been a better choice. Nah just kidding, the G22 is a great pistol.

SDGlock23
06-06-2013, 09:59
He either doesn't see it, or doesn't want to see it.

The .40 S&W and 10mm automatic are the same in his mind.


What don't I see? I will tell you what I don't see, and that's a big difference between the two. Although you say otherwise, I never said the .40 S&W and the 10mm are the same.

spcwes
06-06-2013, 10:29
I didn't say the 10mm couldn't shoot a heavier bullet faster than the .40 using a slightly lighter bullet, just as I said above the .40 can shoot those same heavier bullets too. Also, a 180gr .40 at 1100 isn't "HOT NUCLEAR". Depending on the powder it could be, but so could a 180gr at 900 fps. There are powders than can exceed 1100 fps (180gr) in a 3" barrel, so no I'm not going to accept that 1100 fps from a 4-4.5" is somehow the limit when I know better. For the record, since 10mm is likely UW's bread and butter, I have a feeling they load it a little warmer than they load their .40's.

Yea I am not trying to put words in your messages don't get me wrong but just stating that we kind of are comparing the 41 mag because it is as close as we can get to something over the 10mm with a close diameter and bullet weight.

And the 40 SW factory loadings are what the intended velocities of the round were meant to be. Not so much the case for the 10mm and when you start increasing the pressures in the 40 SW you start to have issues with guns you can shoot them out of as well. Also not so much the case with 10mm. The 180gr loading for the 40SW was designed to be around 900-1000fps depending on who you ask.

The same bullet weight in the 10mm was supposed to be around 1200-1300fps. The majority of what we see in le for the 180gr is around a 950fps average on the 40sw. What I would call a "hot" load for this round would be speer as they seem to load with more speed than the others with it being around 1025 fps. So based on the numbers of UW if you will we are talking about over a 300fps increase with the 10mm loading.




No. I never said it would do exactly what a 10mm will do based on the term "exact". The only way to say yes to that is if the numbers were identical. The .40 can be loaded to 10mm specs if you have the platform to long-load the .40 to 10mm length, but that's not an option with Glocks (mainly 1911 style .40's). At the same time, neither do I see a perceptible advantage to the 10mm either, since the difference between them isn't huge (although some define huge differently). I don't see the bump in speed the 10mm gives as being an answer for what the 100-150 fps slower .40 has already accomplished.


Ok, got you. See I don't see it that way and I tell you why, I carry Glocks for the most part in 40SW and I would never shoot UW, DT or who ever else makes "hot" 40sw as I would perfer to not have my weapon explode.

I do not like to compare hot loads for the 40sw to a 10mm as I would never use them and feel they are never going to be even as mainstream as the 10mm is now. I feel the reason for this is when folks want a hot 40sw they pick up a 10mm because that is what it is designed as and was before the 40sw.




Well because the 10mm does have a little edge in velocity over the .40, it's going to shoot a little bit flatter. I don't see this as an absolute advantage because the .40 loaded warmly is flat enough shooting. Some claim it extends it's effective range, which has merit, but I also don't think it makes much difference because very few are going to attempt a shot beyond 50-75yds anyways. Also, due to the extra heft of the firearm, the 10mm is going to have slightly less perceived recoil assuming both are using warm loads from similar sized pistols.


Yes it is a choice and I have had 10mms in the past but to be honest can't really afford to shoot it or take the time to shoot it. The only 10mm I have stays in the safe, not because I want it there but because I have no place for it at the moment.

What I do think is there is a decent enough power gain with the right ammo that it will do everything a 40sw will and more and that is really not an opinion, physics dictate it.




The G22 is a good choice, a G35 would have been a better choice. Nah just kidding, the G22 is a great pistol.

I have a G35, but the department issues 22s and 23s so that is what I carry 90% of the time. Two of my top 5 handguns of all times (probably in the top 3) are the Glock 21 and 35. My 35 is like a "freakin" lazer gun.

Thanks for the conversation!

SDGlock23
06-06-2013, 10:29
Well, wrong again.

The Underwood .40 S&W +P 180grain Gold Dot is listed at 1100 fps / 484 Ft. Lbs. energy. My handy-dandy Bullet drop calculator says @ 100 yards this load will drop 11.25 inches from POA and delivers 944 fps / 356 Ft. Lbs. energy.

The 45 ACP @ 850 fps generates 369 Ft Lbs. energy, and the 45 ACP @ 900 fps generates 414 Ft Lbs. energy. So nope, your .40 S&W +P does not do what a 10mm Auto can do. :rofl:

The "standard pressure" Winchester 175 gr. Silvertip JHP @ 1290 fps generates 647 Ft. Lbs. of energy at the muzzle and at 100 yards has only 8 inches of drop @ 1060 fps generates 437 Ft. Lbs. energy.

While a handloaded 10mm Nuclear Power 10mm 180 grain Gold Dot @ 1400 fps generates 784 Ft. Lbs. energy at the muzzle and @ 100 yards has only 6.8 inches of drop @ 1100 fps generates 483 Ft. Lbs. energy.


Dude, just give up... the .40 S&W is not on the same level as the 10mm Auto.







There you go running to your beloved Underwood ammo, and then mention a nuclear power handload again. However, there are two things I want to point out. I'm curious, what does energy at 100yds prove exactly? How many people are daily taking 100yd plus shots with their Glocks? Second, I brought up a 180gr at 1200 fps, but you revert to the UW 180g at 1100 fps, and then you mention a hot nuclear 10mm handload. So while we're talking warm handloads, 1300 fps is possible with a 180gr bullet from a G35. From a G24, it can exceed 1350 fps. I've seen those who claim 1450 from a 6" 10mm, so I'm asking you, does the ~100 fps difference really put the 10mm on a completely different level? Can you answer that and not revert back to Underwood?


I'm glad you brought up the 175gr Silvertip. Winchester claims (key word) 1290 fps. What does it do from a Glock 20? Around 1150 to 1200 fps on the high side. Longshot can do that from a 4" G23/4.5" G22. Years ago Winchester might have loaded it to 1290 fps, but they haven't for a long time so don't be fooled by thinking a 175gr Silvertip is running 1290 fps because it isn't, not from a G20 anyways. Just the other day I loaded up some 175gr Silvertips out of my Glock 35 that averaged over 1,260 fps. So what does that say? That tells me the the .40 isn't that different from the 10mm. I loaded for the 10mm for a long time and know just what it's capable of, so why are you trying to prove me wrong?

SDGlock23
06-06-2013, 12:20
Yea I am not trying to put words in your messages don't get me wrong but just stating that we kind of are comparing the 41 mag because it is as close as we can get to something over the 10mm with a close diameter and bullet weight.

And the 40 SW factory loadings are what the intended velocities of the round were meant to be. Not so much the case for the 10mm and when you start increasing the pressures in the 40 SW you start to have issues with guns you can shoot them out of as well. Also not so much the case with 10mm. The 180gr loading for the 40SW was designed to be around 900-1000fps depending on who you ask.

The same bullet weight in the 10mm was supposed to be around 1200-1300fps. The majority of what we see in le for the 180gr is around a 950fps average on the 40sw. What I would call a "hot" load for this round would be speer as they seem to load with more speed than the others with it being around 1025 fps. So based on the numbers of UW if you will we are talking about over a 300fps increase with the 10mm loading.


Yeah the .41 mag would be the next step up after to 10mm, I mean unless we started talking about the 10mm Magnum or the .40 Super, or revolver wise we could bring the the .401 Power Mag or 401 Bobcat or even the old 38-40 which can be loaded "modern" as well, although they're not real popular.

When you mention "hot", it's a good thing to clarify whether you're referring to hot in the sense of velocity or hot in terms of pressure. Hot to me is a pressure thing, not a velocity issue, although it is common for people to refer to fast loads as hot. You may be somewhat familiar with reloading, but to give you a quick example of what I'm talking about, look at these two loads in the .40 S&W from Hodgdon, both 180gr:

40 S&W example:
4" bbl
180 GR. HDY XTP WST .400" 1.125" 4.3gr 888 fps 32,400 PSI
180 GR. HDY XTP Longshot .400" 1.125" 8.0gr 1,159 fps 32,300 PSI

I will include a 10mm example as well:
5" bbl
180 GR. SIE JHC HP-38 .400" 1.260" 5.8gr 1,061 fps 34,900 PSI
180 GR. SIE JHC Longshot .400" 1.260" 9.5gr 1,287 fps 34,600 PSI

Look at the .40 S&W data, and look at WST. Now 888 fps wouldn't be considered hot in terms of velocity. Then look at Longshot, it's a good bit faster, by 270 fps. Now look at the pressure and you'll see that the Longshot load is not only faster, but technically lower pressure. One isn't any hotter than the other, but velocity would dictate the Longshot load to be "hotter".

You can note something similar here as well with the 10mm, although not quite to the same extent. Compare now Longshot .40 vs Longshot 10mm. The 10mm is 128 fps faster but it's also from a longer barrel, and is over 2000 PSI hotter than the .40 S&W. If that load were fired from a shorter 4" bbl, the velocity difference would be less but it would still be hotter in terms of pressure.

The point here is that how "hot" a load is can't always be based on velocity as the sole factor. Now could a Speer 180gr Gold Dot at 1025 fps be at near max pressure? Yes it could be, but just because my G23 will in fact shoot a 180gr JHP over 1150 fps (personally chronograph tested), doesn't mean it's an hotter pressure wise. Throw in a longer barrel and velocity goes up, it's kind of like free velocity, since out of my G35 that same Longshot load is moving at around 1,270 fps.



Ok, got you. See I don't see it that way and I tell you why, I carry Glocks for the most part in 40SW and I would never shoot UW, DT or who ever else makes "hot" 40sw as I would perfer to not have my weapon explode.

I do not like to compare hot loads for the 40sw to a 10mm as I would never use them and feel they are never going to be even as mainstream as the 10mm is now. I feel the reason for this is when folks want a hot 40sw they pick up a 10mm because that is what it is designed as and was before the 40sw.


You're right, most do not fool around with warm .40 S&W as most people are of the idea that regular .40 is maxed out and at it's limit with factory ballistics, which isn't true. Anyway, they pick up a 10mm to have their "warm .40" if you will, and there isn't anything wrong with that.

My idea here is to shed light that no, .40 S&W ballistics from the factory do not represent all the .40 S&W has to offer, just like watered down 10mm loads don't show the 10mm's full potential. It's my contention that people would be just as well served if they looked at what they had and it's ability (warm .40) before jumping to the conclusion that it's inadequate and that they need something else (10mm) in order to do something that the .40 could do just as well.


Yes it is a choice and I have had 10mms in the past but to be honest can't really afford to shoot it or take the time to shoot it. The only 10mm I have stays in the safe, not because I want it there but because I have no place for it at the moment.

What I do think is there is a decent enough power gain with the right ammo that it will do everything a 40sw will and more and that is really not an opinion, physics dictate it.


Yes a 10mm will do everything the .40 can and more (including cost more :)) The way I see it concerning the power gain is this, the .40 can dish out enough power to give any JHP bullet more than enough of a workout. When you push a warm 10mm past warm .40 velocities you aren't gaining extra killing ability. One, the bullets are usually too taxed at that point and they begin to break apart and you lose penetration instead of gaining it, which I don't see as better.

Second, the difference in power between a .40 and 10mm is small compared to that of rifles or slug guns. I bring that up because even with rifles and shotguns you don't always get an instant "stop" despite the large increase in power. So by my way of looking at it, there isn't enough power difference between the .40 and 10mm to make the difference between effective and ineffective.


I have a G35, but the department issues 22s and 23s so that is what I carry 90% of the time. Two of my top 5 handguns of all times (probably in the top 3) are the Glock 21 and 35. My 35 is like a "freakin" lazer gun.

Thanks for the conversation!

Yeah I enjoyed it, the G21 and G35 are two of my favorites also.

rustytxrx
06-06-2013, 15:24
That's why I would choose hardcast, I'd rather have the added penetration.

As always it is a balance. IMO the hollow points put the pigs down much quicker than a heavy cast bullet. I hunt really tight cover. I had rather have to shoot very accurately and have the pig down in sight without an exit hole. Pig can go a long way with 10mm thru and thru.

You can sure tell the difference in the wound channel between a hard cast and a HP. Last February I took 16 in 28 days with 10mm, 41 mag and 460 Rowland. All at less than 25 yes. Failed to recover 3. Pigs are tough.

4949shooter
06-06-2013, 16:02
What don't I see? I will tell you what I don't see, and that's a big difference between the two. Although you say otherwise, I never said the .40 S&W and the 10mm are the same.

Not in those words, but you have been indicating it in all your posts. You believe there is no appreciable advantage to the 10mm over the .40.

.


Yes a 10mm will do everything the .40 can and more (including cost more :)) The way I see it concerning the power gain is this, the .40 can dish out enough power to give any JHP bullet more than enough of a workout. When you push a warm 10mm past warm .40 velocities you aren't gaining extra killing ability. One, the bullets are usually too taxed at that point and they begin to break apart and you lose penetration instead of gaining it, which I don't see as better.

Second, the difference in power between a .40 and 10mm is small compared to that of rifles or slug guns. I bring that up because even with rifles and shotguns you don't always get an instant "stop" despite the large increase in power. So by my way of looking at it, there isn't enough power difference between the .40 and 10mm to make the difference between effective and ineffective.




Yeah I enjoyed it, the G21 and G35 are two of my favorites also.

200 to 300 fps is a big difference when it comes to handgun rounds. Comparing handguns to long guns is comparable to comparing apples to oranges.

Wolf Spyder
06-06-2013, 20:32
SDGlock23, I'm beginning to think your an idiot.




There you go running to your beloved Underwood ammo, and then mention a nuclear power handload again.

Dude, you brought up the Underwood .40 S&W +P to which I pointed out that SAAMI does not recognize .40 S&W +P.

Then you went on to pull some .40 S&W loading out of your butt that pushes a 180 gr. to 1200 fps as some kind of proof that the .40 S&W can do everything the 10mm can. So assuming you meant the Underwood loading I was correcting you.





I'm curious, what does energy at 100yds prove exactly? How many people are daily taking 100yd plus shots with their Glocks?

Dude, you have to try harder at keeping up. In a post above you asked; "Many agree that the 10mm really offers nothing extra in terms of self defense, so why do people think it holds a huge advantage out in the field?"

To which I replied; "That's easy. The .45 ACP crowd believes that their favorite cartridge is the ultimate man stopper. However, the 10mm Auto will strike a bad guy with more energy after traveling 100 yards, than the .45 ACP can at point blank range. So from that point of view, the 10mm Auto carries mythical powers not unlike the Hammer of Thor.

Can the .40 S&W travel 100 yards and hit the bad guy with more energy than the .45 ACP at point blank range? I think not.

Class dismissed."

At this point you went on to pull some .40 S&W loading out of your butt that pushes a 180 gr. to 1200 fps as some kind of proof that the .40 S&W can do everything the 10mm can.





Second, I brought up a 180gr at 1200 fps, but you revert to the UW 180g at 1100 fps,...

Like I said, I was trying correct you, only to realize that you are just making stuff up. If you have a factory load in mind that pushes a .40S&W 180 gr. at 1200 fps I would like to see it.





So while we're talking warm handloads, 1300 fps is possible with a 180gr bullet from a G35. From a G24, it can exceed 1350 fps. I've seen those who claim 1450 from a 6" 10mm, so I'm asking you, does the ~100 fps difference really put the 10mm on a completely different level? Can you answer that and not revert back to Underwood?

Now, I really do think you're an idiot. Just as you can offer different barrel lengths to increase the velocity of your .40 S&W loads Anyone else here can provide longer barrel lengths for their 10mm to increase velocity as well.

If your going to pull some more numbers out of your butt, lets try to compare apples to apples. Other wise I can offer up handloads out of a T/C Contender that pushes a 135gr Nosler (14.5gr of IMR 800X) - 2022fps 42,000psi... Can your .40 S&W compete with a 10mm 135 gr. @ 2022 fps? At some point your .40 S&W runs out of case length. So seeing as the 10mm has a longer case and a higher pressure ceiling, the .40 S&W will loose.

This all seems really stupid and ridiculous. The .40 S&W is not on the same level as the 10mm.

jvbronco
06-06-2013, 20:43
SDGlock23, I'm beginning to think your an idiot.



Lol wtf?! I knew this thread would get heated but this is just hilarious. I am imagining someone actually saying this so 'matter of fact', in a calm voice.

Funny stuff.

Hahaha


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

Wolf Spyder
06-06-2013, 20:59
Lol wtf?! I knew this thread would get heated but this is just hilarious. I am imagining someone actually saying this so 'matter of fact', in a calm voice.

Funny stuff.

Hahaha


Funny enough, that is exactly how I said it to myself when I read his last post. Slightly disbelieving, very matter-of-fact, with a calm voice.

My wife (in her chair across the room) looked up, and ask me who I was talking about. She thought it was funny as well.

SDGlock23
06-07-2013, 09:16
Not in those words, but you have been indicating it in all your posts. You believe there is no appreciable advantage to the 10mm over the .40.



200 to 300 fps is a big difference when it comes to handgun rounds. Comparing handguns to long guns is comparable to comparing apples to oranges.


What's the point of an extra 200-300 fps when the bullet isn't designed to handle it? Pushing faster can increase penetration, but at a point it begins losing it because the bullet fatigues. Faster doesn't always equal better Also, assuming barrels used are the same length (or similar) and pressures are similar, there isn't a 200-300 fps advantage anyways, more like 100-150 fps.

The comment concerning long guns just goes to further illustrate that the minor differences (comparatively) between the .40 and 10mm make little to no difference at all.

SDGlock23
06-07-2013, 09:39
SDGlock23, I'm beginning to think your an idiot.


Dude, you brought up the Underwood .40 S&W +P to which I pointed out that SAAMI does not recognize .40 S&W +P.

Then you went on to pull some .40 S&W loading out of your butt that pushes a 180 gr. to 1200 fps as some kind of proof that the .40 S&W can do everything the 10mm can. So assuming you meant the Underwood loading I was correcting you.


I wasn't pulling any load out of anywhere to try and prove the .40 is the same as the 10mm. Maybe you thought that, but I never said that. .40 +P was brought up just to point out that it doesn't exist (as we both agree), and I questioned why UW doesn't also label their 10mm as +P as well (which we both know doesn't exist either), since their 10mm is over pressure. Simple as that.


Dude, you have to try harder at keeping up. In a post above you asked; "Many agree that the 10mm really offers nothing extra in terms of self defense, so why do people think it holds a huge advantage out in the field?"

To which I replied; "That's easy. The .45 ACP crowd believes that their favorite cartridge is the ultimate man stopper. However, the 10mm Auto will strike a bad guy with more energy after traveling 100 yards, than the .45 ACP can at point blank range. So from that point of view, the 10mm Auto carries mythical powers not unlike the Hammer of Thor.

Can the .40 S&W travel 100 yards and hit the bad guy with more energy than the .45 ACP at point blank range? I think not.

Class dismissed."

At this point you went on to pull some .40 S&W loading out of your butt that pushes a 180 gr. to 1200 fps as some kind of proof that the .40 S&W can do everything the 10mm can.

You should have answered my question which was what does energy at 100yds prove exactly? Nothing is what I'm thinking. 1200 fps is a good velocity for 180gr JHP bullets, it's not too fast but it's fast. IMHO 1200-1250 is as fast as any 180gr JHP needs to be pushed. That's just my opinion.


Like I said, I was trying correct you, only to realize that you are just making stuff up. If you have a factory load in mind that pushes a .40S&W 180 gr. at 1200 fps I would like to see it.


Show me a factory 10mm that does 1400 fps. Maybe in a longer barrel, a boutique load from UW or BB might do 1200 fps, maybe more.


Now, I really do think you're an idiot. Just as you can offer different barrel lengths to increase the velocity of your .40 S&W loads Anyone else here can provide longer barrel lengths for their 10mm to increase velocity as well.

If your going to pull some more numbers out of your butt, lets try to compare apples to apples. Other wise I can offer up handloads out of a T/C Contender that pushes a 135gr Nosler (14.5gr of IMR 800X) - 2022fps 42,000psi... Can your .40 S&W compete with a 10mm 135 gr. @ 2022 fps? At some point your .40 S&W runs out of case length. So seeing as the 10mm has a longer case and a higher pressure ceiling, the .40 S&W will loose.

This all seems really stupid and ridiculous. The .40 S&W is not on the same level as the 10mm.


Did I not mention a 6" 10mm? Where did I say you can't use a longer barreled 10mm? My loads aren't made up, they're real. Seems like you might have a hard time accepting that however.

If you had been paying attention, you would have noticed several times where I said the .40 wasn't the same as the 10mm. Yes the 10mm holds more powder, but I disagree that it has a higher possible pressure ceiling. I haven't seen anything to support the 10mm brass being stronger, or capable of higher pressure. I happen to believe the .40 is a stronger case than the 10mm case. Not as strong, stronger.

What would I get if I put a warm .40 through the same T/C contender? I don't know, I don't have one and likely neither do you since you're posting old McNett data. My 6" barrel .40 will shoot a 135gr at 1,850 fps, so out of a 10" barrel (if that's what the T/C barrel is using), it's only going to be faster with an extra 4 inches of bbl. 2050 fps fast? Who knows and honestly who cares? 1300 fps is borderline too fast for 135gr JHP bullets. Unless you plan on blowing up a squirrel, I don't see a 135gr going that fast as being useful in the slightest.

Coffee Dog
06-07-2013, 13:10
:duel:

uz2bUSMC
06-07-2013, 15:17
1300 fps is borderline too fast for 135gr JHP bullets. Unless you plan on blowing up a squirrel, I don't see a 135gr going that fast as being useful in the slightest.


Not necessarily. People have different reasons for subscribing to a higher velocity same as those who don't care for it. But depending on the distance you may want to take a game animal (i.e. longer ranges) you may want that added velocity to keep a desired performance envelope at range.

uz2bUSMC
06-07-2013, 15:20
SDGlock23, I'm beginning to think your an idiot.

I think SDG23 is a decent dude.

CanyonMan
06-07-2013, 15:23
I think SDG23 is a decent dude.


I've known SDG23 for long time... He is a decent dude, and good people. He also knows what he's talking about.




CanyonMan

4949shooter
06-07-2013, 18:31
What's the point of an extra 200-300 fps when the bullet isn't designed to handle it? Pushing faster can increase penetration, but at a point it begins losing it because the bullet fatigues. Faster doesn't always equal better Also, assuming barrels used are the same length (or similar) and pressures are similar, there isn't a 200-300 fps advantage anyways, more like 100-150 fps.

The comment concerning long guns just goes to further illustrate that the minor differences (comparatively) between the .40 and 10mm make little to no difference at all.

Consider full metal jacket for large animal defense. The 10mm will offer more power to punch through bone and deeper into tissue.

The Hornady XTP 200 grain and the Winchester Silvertip 175 grain are 10mm designed bullets. The other bullets, I see your point....to a point.

spcwes
06-08-2013, 07:07
I've known SDG23 for long time... He is a decent dude, and good people. He also knows what he's talking about.




CanyonMan

Well this goes past SDG23, these threads should never get to a point of name calling and childish crap. When folks start to resort to name calling based on a difference of opinion you begin to loose credibility even if you do know what you are talking about.

Well said CM.

clarkz71
06-08-2013, 07:29
I agree, in my past experience on forums, personal
attacks do nothing to prove your point.

SDGlock23
06-08-2013, 16:12
I think SDG23 is a decent dude.
Thanks uz2bUSMC, I appreciate that.

I've known SDG23 for long time... He is a decent dude, and good people. He also knows what he's talking about.

CanyonMan

CM, thanks for the kind words. It's always good to hear from you brother, God bless!

CanyonMan
06-08-2013, 19:02
Thanks uz2bUSMC, I appreciate that.



CM, thanks for the kind words. It's always good to hear from you brother, God bless!



Meant em' too ! ;)



Stay safe brother !









CanyonMan

dannyyates
03-15-2014, 01:45
How powerful is it?

It's so powerful the jacket and core almost separated (this just doesn't happen with Gold Dots, not through denim)!

It's so powerful you don't measure the expanded diameter, you measure the stretched length!

10mm Ammo Gel Test: 180 gr Gold Dot (Underwood Ammo) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sl_n_miLfbY&feature=g-all-u)

TNoutdoors9 get well soon hope you recover well and are able to make more great videos but your health is the main thing thanks for all the great info you gave and get well soon

Wolf Spyder
03-18-2014, 09:56
Here is a blast from the past... I had given up on this post when I realized there was no chance of reasoning with SDGlock23.

Going back and re-reading this thread has been fun. Thanks Dannyyates for digging this up.





.