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Vic Hays
09-02-2012, 14:36
God says that He is the only Creator and the only Redeemer. He backs this up with His knowledge of future events.

I happen to be in need of a Redeemer so I was amazed when God actually provided irrefutable proof of His existence in the Bible.

Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Daniel chapter 2 is a good example. God gives the future of this world in an outline form from Daniel's time to the coming of God's kingdom.

Daniel chapter 9 gives the time when the Messiah or redeemer would appear in earth's history.

There is plenty more but these two examples are outstanding.

Japle
09-02-2012, 17:31
Yep, you bet! The Bible is the absolute, true, factual, undeniable word of the only true god.

It says so right there on the label!!

LASTRESORT20
09-02-2012, 17:34
Vic .... Thank you for the share....

Kingarthurhk
09-02-2012, 17:42
Yep, you bet! The Bible is the absolute, true, factual, undeniable word of the only true god.

It says so right there on the label!!

It's historically and archaelogically accurate, so your major problem is that its morality conflicts with what you want to do when you want to do it?

Berto
09-02-2012, 17:56
I don't have a horse in this race, people can believe or not believe, it doesn't matter to me.
I believe in God... do I know the particulars of what was created, sacrificed or begotten throughout human history, what has God's hand or not, and what nations have blessings or which don't? No way.
Is the Bible 100% factual and literal, or is it a collection of stories, metaphors or 'fairy tales' ?

It seems there is enough evidence in human evolution and civilization to support some of both arguments. Most seem to agree Jesus lived, including scriptures of other faiths. Science, whatever it's motivation, verifys and debunks elements of what people take from their denominations- be it the Bible OT or NT- or whatever.

The thing I don't understand, and this is an honest observation; why are people so determined to tell others what they are rightful in believing or not?

I get the issue with religious oppression or forcing faith on others, no doubt this has happened and continues to happen. It's the oldest cause of bloodshed worldwide.

The majority (though certainly not all) of people would readily accept the possibility- if not outright certainty- that intelligent life exists outside our solar system. It has to, right...? There's millions of stars and galaxies, there has to be at least a few possible life-sustaining systems out there. It wouldn't be a stretch to conceive some of them may be well advanced in knowledge and technology either.

Would anyone, atheist or not, dismiss that possibility?

Animal Mother
09-02-2012, 18:49
God says that He is the only Creator and the only Redeemer. He backs this up with His knowledge of future events.

I happen to be in need of a Redeemer so I was amazed when God actually provided irrefutable proof of His existence in the Bible.

Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Daniel chapter 2 is a good example. God gives the future of this world in an outline form from Daniel's time to the coming of God's kingdom.

Daniel chapter 9 gives the time when the Messiah or redeemer would appear in earth's history.

There is plenty more but these two examples are outstanding.I hope this isn't the irrefutable evidence you spoke of.

If Daniel chapter 9 tells us when the Messiah will appear, shouldn't it be a simple matter to share the date of this event?

If Daniel chapter 2 gives the outline of the future from the time of Daniel until the coming of God's kingdom, how is it that no one has successfully used it to predict future events?

Animal Mother
09-02-2012, 18:50
It's historically and archaelogically accurate, so your major problem is that its morality conflicts with what you want to do when you want to do it?The Bible is historically accurate in some regards, but then so is Gone With the Wind. Do we thus conclude Rhett and Scarlett were real people and Tara was an actual plantation?

Altaris
09-02-2012, 19:41
The Bible is historically accurate in some regards, but then so is Gone With the Wind. Do we thus conclude Rhett and Scarlett were real people and Tara was an actual plantation?

I prayed to them that I wouldn't get a hangover last night and I didn't. Therefore Rhett and Scarlett answered my prayers and are real :supergrin:

Vic Hays
09-02-2012, 20:08
I hope this isn't the irrefutable evidence you spoke of.

If Daniel chapter 2 gives the outline of the future from the time of Daniel until the coming of God's kingdom, how is it that no one has successfully used it to predict future events?

People of faith have used the prophecies successfully to predict future events.

Kaiser Wilhelm did not like Daniel so he ordered the head of a statue of Daniel removed because Daniel predicted that the Roman Empire would never be reunited.

Hitler didn't care because he thought he was smarter and stronger than God. He knew the prophecy but he said it did not fit his plans.

They both knew of the prophecy just disregarded it.

The kingdoms are listed in their order. The fourth kingdom is the Roman Empire and it is divided not conquered. Even intermarriage was tried to reunite the old Roman Empire. Napoleon, Charlemagne, Kaiser Wilhelm, Hitler, and recently the Common MArket have all tried to reunite that area, but the Bible says it will not happen.

Daniel 2:40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
2:41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters’ clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
2:42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Vic Hays
09-02-2012, 20:26
If Daniel chapter 9 tells us when the Messiah will appear, shouldn't it be a simple matter to share the date of this event?



The appearance of the Messiah was linked in Daniel to the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem.

Only one commandment from Artaxerxes fits the specification to restore Jerusalem. Ezra chapter 7 gives us that information. The start date is 457 BC

Daniel's prophecy:

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem to the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and three score and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
9:26 And after three score and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and to the end of the war desolations are determined.

Prophetic time is such that these are weeks of years not literal days. &0 weeks of years is 490 years.

69 weeks 483
minus 457 BC
plus 1 because there is no year called zero
------
equals 27 AD

Messiah means the anointed one. Jesus was anointed with the Holy Spirit on this year at His baptism.

Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Verse 26 of Daniel 9 says the Messiah will be cut off in the middle of the 70th week. This happened with Jesus crucifixion after 3 1/2 years of His ministry.
The gospel continued to be preached for another 3 1/2 years until Stephen was stoned and persecution arose against Christians in Jerusalem. So Jesus was rejected as well as the Gospel just as Daniel predicted.

And:

The city was destroyed and made desolate just as Daniel predicted..

Walk Soft
09-02-2012, 20:38
I don't need proof.I have felt his grace and continue to do so.

Animal Mother
09-02-2012, 21:22
People of faith have used the prophecies successfully to predict future events. Could you offer some documented examples?
Kaiser Wilhelm did not like Daniel so he ordered the head of a statue of Daniel removed because Daniel predicted that the Roman Empire would never be reunited.

Hitler didn't care because he thought he was smarter and stronger than God. He knew the prophecy but he said it did not fit his plans.

They both knew of the prophecy just disregarded it. Which seems reasonable, given the universal failure of prophecy to reach fulfillment.
The kingdoms are listed in their order. The fourth kingdom is the Roman Empire or the Seleucids, depending on who you ask.
and it is divided not conquered. Even intermarriage was tried to reunite the old Roman Empire. Napoleon, Charlemagne, Kaiser Wilhelm, Hitler, and recently the Common MArket have all tried to reunite that area, but the Bible says it will not happen. What empire has ever been reformed after breaking apart?

Altaris
09-02-2012, 21:32
I don't need proof.I have felt his grace and continue to do so.

How do you know you have felt his grace if you don't need proof that it was actually his grace causing that sensation in you?

Animal Mother
09-02-2012, 21:42
The appearance of the Messiah was linked in Daniel to the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem.

Only one commandment from Artaxerxes fits the specification to restore Jerusalem. Ezra chapter 7 gives us that information. The start date is 457 BC

Daniel's prophecy:

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem to the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and three score and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
9:26 And after three score and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and to the end of the war desolations are determined.

Prophetic time is such that these are weeks of years not literal days. &0 weeks of years is 490 years.

69 weeks 483
minus 457 BC
plus 1 because there is no year called zero
------
equals 27 AD

Messiah means the anointed one. Jesus was anointed with the Holy Spirit on this year at His baptism. Weren't the Jews of the time aware of all these prophecies? Shouldn't they thus have recognized the coming of the Messiah at that date?

To be fair, you're reaching this "prophetic" conclusion after the fact, with the benefit of hindsight, and the ability to massage the number to make them line up the way you want them to.
The city was destroyed and made desolate just as Daniel predicted..Jerusalem was destroyed? I was there a couple of years ago, it didn't look destroyed at all to me.

LASTRESORT20
09-02-2012, 21:52
Originally Posted by Walk Soft http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=19378345#post19378345)
I don't need proof.I have felt his grace and continue to do so.


How do you know you have felt his grace if you don't need proof that is was actually his grace causing that sensation in you?


For me....He has saved my butt in many instances....close calls...(life & death included)...I will ***NEVER forget...I am not perfect...but I have prayed and received the blessings/help given to me...that is "my" proof...I have always been a believer...He was always there.

Vic Hays
09-02-2012, 22:05
Weren't the Jews of the time aware of all these prophecies? Shouldn't they thus have recognized the coming of the Messiah at that date?

To be fair, you're reaching this "prophetic" conclusion after the fact, with the benefit of hindsight, and the ability to massage the number to make them line up the way you want them to.
Jerusalem was destroyed? I was there a couple of years ago, it didn't look destroyed at all to me.

The Jews of the time were mostly not looking for Him, but the three wise men who were from the east and not Jews calculated the time and were looking for Him. A Jewish scribe told them the place when Herod inquired.

Numbers are facts that science can work with. The numbers can be twisted, but it is up to you to show the miscalculation if any.

You know very well that Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed in 70 AD by Titus and the Roman army.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_(70)

"The Siege of Jerusalem in the year 70 was the decisive event of the First Jewish-Roman War. The Roman army, led by the future Emperor Titus, with Tiberius Julius Alexander as his second-in-command, besieged and conquered the city of Jerusalem, which had been occupied by its Jewish defenders in 66.
The siege ended with the sacking of the city and the destruction of its famous Second Temple. The destruction of both the first and second temples is still mourned annually as the Jewish fast Tisha B'Av. The Arch of Titus, celebrating the Roman sack of Jerusalem and the Temple, still stands in Rome."

Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Prophecy is not always to tell people when something is to occur. It is also to strengthen faith afterwards when God accurately predicted them.

Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he reveals his secret to his servants the prophets.

Animal Mother
09-02-2012, 22:06
Originally Posted by Walk Soft http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=19378345#post19378345)
I don't need proof.I have felt his grace and continue to do so.





For me....He has saved my butt in many instances....close calls...(life & death included)...I will ***NEVER forget...I am not perfect...but I have prayed and received the blessings/help given to me...that is "my" proof...I have always been a believer...He was always there.Maybe it's actually the Invisible Pink Unicorn that's saving you.

NMG26
09-02-2012, 22:07
Vic I have trouble following all this prophesy stuff.

Can you just tell me what the next really big thing that is going to happen. Be as specific as you can please.



.

Animal Mother
09-02-2012, 22:18
Numbers are facts that science can work with. The numbers can be twisted, but it is up to you to show the miscalculation if any. You're applying a "prophetic weeks of years" to our modern dating system and then using that to calculate an event which isn't firmly dated or even known to have actually taken place. How is the burden on me? As things like the Bible Code and gematria demonstrate, almost anything can be "calculated" if the desired answer is already known.
You know very well that Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed in 70 AD by Titus and the Roman army. The temple certainly was, and the city heavily damaged, but it was back to being the capitol by the time of the Bar Kochba revolt, and a thriving (though non-Jewish) city after that, hardly desolation. That might actually be a better argument for destruction and desolation, considering that after the war the city was renamed Aelia Capitolina and both Jews and Christians were banned.

Altaris
09-02-2012, 22:19
For me....He has saved my butt in many instances....close calls...(life & death included)...I will ***NEVER forget...I am not perfect...but I have prayed and received the blessings/help given to me...that is "my" proof...I have always been a believer...He was always there.


Do you believe in a divine plan?

Phaze5ive
09-02-2012, 23:45
I happen to be in need of a Redeemer so I was amazed when God actually provided irrefutable proof of His existence in the Bible.


God must be real because the Bible says so?

Sounds like circular reasoning to me.

Kingarthurhk
09-03-2012, 06:00
The Bible is historically accurate in some regards, but then so is Gone With the Wind. Do we thus conclude Rhett and Scarlett were real people and Tara was an actual plantation?

Gone with the Wind was not historically accurate. Archaeology time and time again has proven what has been written in scripture to be historically accurate. No other religious text can make that claim. So, because there is an acurate historical and archaeological evidence for scriptures accuracy, it would then lead creedance to its spritual truths.

Kingarthurhk
09-03-2012, 06:01
God must be real because the Bible says so?

Sounds like circular reasoning to me.

Or, the text is proven historically and archaelogically accurate time and time again. So, therefore, its other claims might just be valid as well. Not circular at all. Merely, dedcutive.

eracer
09-03-2012, 06:28
Still waiting for this 'evidence' you speak of.

Oh wait... You mean the Big Bang, Quantum Physics, and Natural Selection?

OK, I'm on board with that.

Cavalry Doc
09-03-2012, 06:50
Still waiting for this 'evidence' you speak of.

Oh wait... You mean the Big Bang, Quantum Physics, and Natural Selection?

OK, I'm on board with that.

Maybe the big bang wasn't.

'Big Bang' actually 'Big Chill,' new theory says

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2012/08/22/big-bang-was-actually-phase-change/#ixzz25PVOHYAY


I guess if you could find a witness, you could ask them.

Cavalry Doc
09-03-2012, 06:52
God must be real because the Bible says so?

Sounds like circular reasoning to me.

The funny part is that the reverse is also true.

"god can't be real because I haven't found a god"

Just as circular. You know, it's ok to not know.

Animal Mother
09-03-2012, 07:03
Gone with the Wind was not historically accurate.What about it is historically inaccurate?
Archaeology time and time again has proven what has been written in scripture to be historically accurate. In some instances, this is true. In others, it is false.
No other religious text can make that claim. Almost all of them make it.
So, because there is an acurate historical and archaeological evidence for scriptures accuracy, it would then lead creedance to its spritual truths.How does that work? Does the fact that London exists make Sherlock Holmes a real person and his adventures true?

eracer
09-03-2012, 07:03
Maybe the big bang wasn't.

I guess if you could find a witness, you could ask them.Interesting idea.

I wonder if some day it might be possible to 'melt' space-time. Surely the energy required is beyond our comprehension, but it at least provides a model for paradox-free time travel (since, much like snowflakes, you couldn't re-freeze in the same matrix.)

Maybe that's what black holes do.

Japle
09-03-2012, 07:35
Posted by Kingarthurhk:
Archaeology time and time again has proven what has been written in scripture to be historically accurate.
Youíve made that claim before. When itís pointed out that there is no archaeological evidence whatsoever of the Exodus or the Flood (just two examples), you simply ignore that and repeat the claim.

steveksux
09-03-2012, 08:23
Or, the text is proven historically and archaelogically accurate time and time again. So, therefore, its other claims might just be valid as well. Not circular at all. Merely, dedcutive.And anything in the Bible found to be historically inaccurate would do what to it's other claims?

Randy

Cavalry Doc
09-03-2012, 08:25
Interesting idea.

I wonder if some day it might be possible to 'melt' space-time. Surely the energy required is beyond our comprehension, but it at least provides a model for paradox-free time travel (since, much like snowflakes, you couldn't re-freeze in the same matrix.)

Maybe that's what black holes do.

The cool thing about the universe, is that we have barely began to explore it. There is so much left to learn.

NMG26
09-03-2012, 08:29
Vic I have trouble following all this prophesy stuff.

Can you just tell me what the next really big thing that is going to happen. Be as specific as you can please.



.

:dunno:???

Vic Hays
09-03-2012, 09:57
Still waiting for this 'evidence' you speak of.

Oh wait... You mean the Big Bang, Quantum Physics, and Natural Selection?

OK, I'm on board with that.

No, I meant the original post. Scoffing and denial are not refutation.

Vic Hays
09-03-2012, 10:01
And anything in the Bible found to be historically inaccurate would do what to it's other claims?

Randy

People have tried to find historically inaccurate information in the Bible. What has happened in those cases is that new archaeological finds keep proving the Bible accurate. It has stood the test of time.

steveksux
09-03-2012, 10:25
People have tried to find historically inaccurate information in the Bible. What has happened in those cases is that new archaeological finds keep proving the Bible accurate. It has stood the test of time.Way to sidestep the question...

Randy

Japle
09-03-2012, 11:45
Posted by Vic Hays:
People have tried to find historically inaccurate information in the Bible. What has happened in those cases is that new archaeological finds keep proving the Bible accurate. It has stood the test of time.
No, it hasnít and continuing to say so wonít change that. As I mentioned a few posts ago, thereís no archaeological evidence whatsoever of the Exodus or the Flood and there should be plenty of evidence. You and Kingarthurhk and others ignore that fact and repeat your claim.

Weíve been through this already. If you want to present archaeological evidence for the Flood or the Exodus, please do so. It would be best to start another thread, though.

Vic Hays
09-03-2012, 13:28
No, it hasnít and continuing to say so wonít change that. As I mentioned a few posts ago, thereís no archaeological evidence whatsoever of the Exodus or the Flood and there should be plenty of evidence. You and Kingarthurhk and others ignore that fact and repeat your claim.

Weíve been through this already. If you want to present archaeological evidence for the Flood or the Exodus, please do so. It would be best to start another thread, though.

You are off topic from the original post, however, arguing from a lack of evidenced is very poor refuting.

I posted evidence. If it doesn't suit you, sorry.

muscogee
09-03-2012, 15:59
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kr1I3mBojc0

Kingarthurhk
09-03-2012, 16:07
Youíve made that claim before. When itís pointed out that there is no archaeological evidence whatsoever of the Exodus or the Flood (just two examples), you simply ignore that and repeat the claim.

Actually, I have shown both to have been revealed through archaeological and palentoligcaly evidence. Maybe you were on vacation at the time?

High-Gear
09-03-2012, 16:41
Gone with the Wind was not historically accurate. Archaeology time and time again has proven what has been written in scripture to be historically accurate. No other religious text can make that claim. So, because there is an acurate historical and archaeological evidence for scriptures accuracy, it would then lead creedance to its spritual truths.

Except for that pesky little issue of no archelogical evidence for the jews being in Egypt, or any of the supernatural stuff, like a worldwide flood, or the common parrentage of all animals on the planet post flood, or the creation.

Bren
09-03-2012, 16:46
It's historically and archaelogically accurate, so your major problem is that its morality conflicts with what you want to do when you want to do it?

No, the major problem is that it's history and archeology don't prove anything whatsoever about a god or gods (and it's morality is not very impressive either).

A while back, I read Interview With a Vampire, by Anne Rice - remember that one? It's history and archeology are correct. Does that prove supernatural vampires exist? If somebody is still reading that book in a few thousand years, will it become any more true?

Bren
09-03-2012, 16:48
You are off topic from the original post, however, arguing from a lack of evidenced is very poor refuting.

I posted evidence. If it doesn't suit you, sorry.

Here's where the confusion comes in. You posted absolutely not a single shred of evidence of the existence of any supernatural being of any kind from your religion or any other. Then you claim that was proof.

Fine, I just proved conclusively that there is no God.

Maybe the big bang wasn't.



I guess if you could find a witness, you could ask them.

Well, that may prove that science is willing to look at evidence and improve it's theories, but it doesn't add a grain to the complete absence of evidence of gods.

muscogee
09-03-2012, 16:51
For me....He has saved my butt in many instances....close calls...(life & death included)...I will ***NEVER forget...I am not perfect...but I have prayed and received the blessings/help given to me...that is "my" proof...I have always been a believer...He was always there.

Since 2009 I've had cardioversion three times, and a cardiac catheter twice. Any of those could have been fatal. Less than a month ago I had an accident. I was in the hospital two days and and nearly bleed to death. Not one time did I ask any one to pray for me. To my knowledge no one did. I survived due to luck, good medicine, and my Scots-Irish constitution. That's my proof that God has nothing to do with surviving death, or anything else.

High-Gear
09-03-2012, 16:56
I found true evidence of predictions in "The Good Book"

Seriously, check it out, maybe there is something to what Vic is saying!
http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/moby.html

Kingarthurhk
09-03-2012, 16:59
No, the major problem is that it's history and archeology don't prove anything whatsoever about a god or gods (and it's morality is not very impressive either).

A while back, I read Interview With a Vampire, by Anne Rice - remember that one? It's history and archeology are correct. Does that prove supernatural vampires exist? If somebody is still reading that book in a few thousand years, will it become any more true?

For someone who claims it must be science, you sure disdain science when it doesn't support your preconceived ideas.

Kingarthurhk
09-03-2012, 17:01
Since 2009 I've had cardioversion three times, and a cardiac catheter twice. Any of those could have been fatal. Less than a month ago I had an accident. I was in the hospital two days and and nearly bleed to death. Not one time did I ask any one to pray for me. To my knowledge no one did. I survived due to luck, good medicine, and my Scots-Irish constitution. That's my proof that God has nothing to do with surviving death, or anything else.

My Scotts grandfather left me with a broad chest and a kidney problem. Though, no one had a barrel chest like him. He had the chest made for a camber.

On a more germaine note, I am glad you are okay.

Cavalry Doc
09-03-2012, 17:15
Here's where the confusion comes in. You posted absolutely not a single shred of evidence of the existence of any supernatural being of any kind from your religion or any other. Then you claim that was proof.

Fine, I just proved conclusively that there is no God.



Well, that may prove that science is willing to look at evidence and improve it's theories, but it doesn't add a grain to the complete absence of evidence of gods.

I haven't seen any convincing evidence one way or the other as to whether a deity has or has not existed. It's an unanswered question as far as I can tell. Some have faith that they know the answer though, on both sides.

Japle
09-03-2012, 17:19
Originally Posted by Japle:
Youíve made that claim before. When itís pointed out that there is no archaeological evidence whatsoever of the Exodus or the Flood (just two examples), you simply ignore that and repeat the claim.
Posted by Kingarthurhk:
Actually, I have shown both to have been revealed through archaeological and palentoligcaly (sp) evidence. Maybe you were on vacation at the time?
I donít think so, but if you did it once you can do it again or post a link. Others probably missed it, too.

How about it? Be a sport. Or admit you've got nothing.

Walk Soft
09-03-2012, 17:31
How do you know you have felt his grace if you don't need proof that it was actually his grace causing that sensation in you?

When I was saved there was instant newfound ataraxia.I for once felt whole. It's kinda hard to put into words actually,but I'm not trying to prove anything.I don't have to...I know.

IhRedrider
09-03-2012, 17:39
AM,

Maybe it's actually the Invisible Pink Unicorn that's saving you.

Technically, an item is not a particular color, it simply absorbs particular wave lengths of light and reflects the other wave lengths. So..... If the unicorn is "pink" that means it reflects the particular wave length of light that appears pink in the human eye. Therefore it has to be visible ergo, it is not possible to be pink and invisible. Thanks for coming out.

muscogee
09-03-2012, 17:41
When I was saved there was instant newfound ataraxia.I for once felt whole. It's kinda hard to put into words actually,but I'm not trying to prove anything.I don't have to...I know.

Hypnosis. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnosis)

Kingarthurhk
09-03-2012, 17:52
Hypnosis. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnosis)

No. I remember the day I undersood that I was, actually, factually saved. Someone would have thought I was drunk or crazed man, because I was so happy I was laughing and crying at the same time. I could not contain my joy if I wanted to. I was drunk alright, on the Holy Spirit. I had been baptized in the water, but at the moment I was baptized in the Holy Spirit. It is a state of mind that defies words. It is overwhelming and wonderful and humble and greatful and awesome all wrapped up in one and that doesn't even begin to cover it.

No one hypnotized me. I was alone in study when it happened. I was drawing close to God and He drew close to me as promised.

James 4:7-10, "Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil,<sup class="crossreference" value='(L (http://glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30345L))'></sup> and he will flee from you. <sup class="versenum">8 </sup>Come near to God and he will come near to you.<sup class="crossreference" value='(M (http://glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30346M))'></sup> Wash your hands,<sup class="crossreference" value='(N (http://glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30346N))'></sup> you sinners, and purify your hearts,<sup class="crossreference" value='(O (http://glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30346O))'></sup> you double-minded.<sup class="crossreference" value='(P (http://glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30346P))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">9 </sup>Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom.<sup class="crossreference" value='(Q (http://glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30347Q))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">10 </sup>Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up."

The answer was simple, I had just made it more complicated than necessary. I was embarking on a honest need to find the Divine. I did.

High-Gear
09-03-2012, 18:56
AM,



Technically, an item is not a particular color, it simply absorbs particular wave lengths of light and reflects the other wave lengths. So..... If the unicorn is "pink" that means it reflects the particular wave length of light that appears pink in the human eye. Therefore it has to be visible ergo, it is not possible to be pink and invisible. Thanks for coming out.

Nothing escapes you, not even sarcasm. She works in mysterious ways!

Animal Mother
09-03-2012, 21:05
AM,



Technically, an item is not a particular color, it simply absorbs particular wave lengths of light and reflects the other wave lengths. So..... If the unicorn is "pink" that means it reflects the particular wave length of light that appears pink in the human eye. Therefore it has to be visible ergo, it is not possible to be pink and invisible. Thanks for coming out.It's amusing how you think you can possibly comprehend the workings of the IPU.

Animal Mother
09-03-2012, 21:08
Actually, I have shown both to have been revealed through archaeological and palentoligcaly evidence. Maybe you were on vacation at the time?No you haven't. You've made claims with absolutely no evidence because they fit your interpretation of the Bible. You've posted videos which agree with you, with the same complete lack of evidence. You once pointed out a wagon wheel in the red sea as evidence of the Exodus and were met with any number of more likely explanations which you failed to address, similar to how you're failing to address the failings in your "historically and archaeologically accurate" claims in this thread.

Vic Hays
09-03-2012, 21:32
:dunno:???

The image to the beast will be set up and a universal Sunday law. This will happen soon after the economic collapse of the USA.

The image to the Beast is a coalition of religion with government. It will be able to both speak (make laws) and cause (enforce the law).

Most of the prophecies have already been fulfilled.

Revelation 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Knowing what is going to happen will not save you. You have to be in relationship with Jesus to be saved.

Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives to the death.

High-Gear
09-04-2012, 00:45
No. I remember the day I undersood that I was, actually, factually saved. Someone would have thought I was drunk or crazed man, because I was so happy I was laughing and crying at the same time. I could not contain my joy if I wanted to. I was drunk alright, on the Holy Spirit. I had been baptized in the water, but at the moment I was baptized in the Holy Spirit. It is a state of mind that defies words. It is overwhelming and wonderful and humble and greatful and awesome all wrapped up in one and that doesn't even begin to cover it.

No one hypnotized me. I was alone in study when it happened. I was drawing close to God and He drew close to me as promised.

James 4:7-10, "Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil,<sup class="crossreference" value='(L (http://glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30345L))'></sup> and he will flee from you. <sup class="versenum">8 </sup>Come near to God and he will come near to you.<sup class="crossreference" value='(M (http://glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30346M))'></sup> Wash your hands,<sup class="crossreference" value='(N (http://glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30346N))'></sup> you sinners, and purify your hearts,<sup class="crossreference" value='(O (http://glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30346O))'></sup> you double-minded.<sup class="crossreference" value='(P (http://glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30346P))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">9 </sup>Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom.<sup class="crossreference" value='(Q (http://glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30347Q))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">10 </sup>Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up."

The answer was simple, I had just made it more complicated than necessary. I was embarking on a honest need to find the Divine. I did.
Interesting choice of words. You had a need to find a higher power, and you did! Is it possible you needed something to answer questions or fill an emotional desire and you found it.

What a testament to the man made nature of gods.

Animal Mother
09-04-2012, 05:33
The image to the beast will be set up and a universal Sunday law. This will happen soon after the economic collapse of the USA.

The image to the Beast is a coalition of religion with government. It will be able to both speak (make laws) and cause (enforce the law). When will this happen? Hasn't this already happened a number of times in the past, in various kingdoms and nations?

muscogee
09-04-2012, 07:59
No. I remember the day I undersood that I was, actually, factually saved. Someone would have thought I was drunk or crazed man, because I was so happy I was laughing and crying at the same time. I could not contain my joy if I wanted to. I was drunk alright, on the Holy Spirit. I had been baptized in the water, but at the moment I was baptized in the Holy Spirit. It is a state of mind that defies words. It is overwhelming and wonderful and humble and greatful and awesome all wrapped up in one and that doesn't even begin to cover it.

No one hypnotized me. I was alone in study when it happened. I was drawing close to God and He drew close to me as promised.

Self Hypnosis (http://hypnosiscentral.net/selfhypnosis.html)

Mass Hypnosis (http://hypnosiscentral.net/masshypnosis.html)

Vic Hays
09-04-2012, 08:06
When will this happen? Hasn't this already happened a number of times in the past, in various kingdoms and nations?

This will be worldwide.

Cavalry Doc
09-04-2012, 08:08
Interesting choice of words. You had a need to find a higher power, and you did! Is it possible you needed something to answer questions or fill an emotional desire and you found it.

What a testament to the man made nature of gods.

It is a quirk of human nature to want to know. Many people have decided on what to believe about certain details of the nature of the universe, including the atheists.

For the most part, there is no harm in deciding to make an assumption.

Kingarthurhk
09-04-2012, 08:28
Interesting choice of words. You had a need to find a higher power, and you did! Is it possible you needed something to answer questions or fill an emotional desire and you found it.

What a testament to the man made nature of gods.

Hardly. I take it you have never had a moment of Grace? Or, have you not tried?

Animal Mother
09-04-2012, 12:07
This will be worldwide.When?

Geko45
09-04-2012, 13:15
When?

About 70AD

I hope this isn't the irrefutable evidence you spoke of.

Irrisputable.

Animal Mother
09-04-2012, 13:35
Irrisputable.
http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfairpark/unpossible.jpg

NMG26
09-04-2012, 13:40
The image to the beast will be set up and a universal Sunday law. This will happen soon after the economic collapse of the USA.

The image to the Beast is a coalition of religion with government. It will be able to both speak (make laws) and cause (enforce the law).

Most of the prophecies have already been fulfilled.

Revelation 13:15

Knowing what is going to happen will not save you. You have to be in relationship with Jesus to be saved.

Revelation 12:11


Thank you Vic.

I'm already saved though. Jesus is a wonderful Archetype of love. End time theology fails because it shows that God has no faith in mankind, and mankind can have no faith or hope for the world that now is. It is having no faith in this world. It is escapism at best. It does nothing to solve the worlds problems. It is to be rejected by those who would have real faith in this creation.

.

Vic Hays
09-04-2012, 13:50
Thank you Vic.

I'm already saved though. Jesus is a wonderful Archetype of love. End time theology fails because it shows that God has no faith in mankind, and mankind can have no faith or hope for the world that now is. It is having no faith in this world. It is escapism at best. It does nothing to solve the worlds problems. It is to be rejected by those who would have real faith in this creation.

.

They will try to solve the poblems of the world but will be unable. If Jesus did not come there would be no one saved.

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the electí sake those days shall be shortened.

Bren
09-04-2012, 13:52
For someone who claims it must be science, you sure disdain science when it doesn't support your preconceived ideas.

How do you figure? You cite the bible's history and archeology as proof of god, but they are proof of no more than that the bible was written by people who actually lived in those times and places - if you want to talk history and archeology, then you'd have to ask why your god never told anybody about any history or archeology that wasn't already known to the people who wrote the bible. (I know, he told them in the book of mormon, which he forgot to reveal to Europeans until after they had discovered the Americas and Indians and such...oops.)

I fail to see how it ignores science to point out that nothing about accurate history or archeology, the the writers would obviously have known, implies anything at all about a supernatural creator. Hence the childishly simple analogy I used: As in your claim about the bible, the fact that Anne Rice wrote about vampires in New Orleans, in real place I have visited only proves that she has seen New Orleans, which is not disputed - it proves absolutely nothing about the fictional characters and events she placed there.

Did you hear about Abraham Lincoln and the vampires? They were even at the battle of Ghettysburg, so they must be real.:rofl:

Bren
09-04-2012, 13:59
I haven't seen any convincing evidence one way or the other as to whether a deity has or has not existed. It's an unanswered question as far as I can tell. Some have faith that they know the answer though, on both sides.

No, it is not an unanswered question. It needs some evidence to even amount to that, but there is none. When the first evidence of a supernatural creator is available, we can examine it - until then, the best we can do is to point out that "the bible says so" gives your religion no more merit than the hundreds that came before it.

High-Gear
09-04-2012, 14:00
Hardly. I take it you have never had a moment of Grace? Or, have you not tried?

What does "moment of grace" mean to you? How does one try to have one?

Cavalry Doc
09-04-2012, 15:03
No, it is not an unanswered question. It needs some evidence to even amount to that, but there is none. When the first evidence of a supernatural creator is available, we can examine it - until then, the best we can do is to point out that "the bible says so" gives your religion no more merit than the hundreds that came before it.

Not that any one answer is right or wrong, but the truth is that it starts with a couple questions. Where did we come from? Why are we here?

Some believe we were made, some believe we just happened through understandable forces of nature.

IhRedrider
09-04-2012, 19:50
Interesting, when an atheists is faced real and provable science, they act(?) stupid. Before you all get bent, please refresh yourselves with the differences between fact and theory. You all have the entire internet at your disposal to discover these differences. By the way, while you are here, you can go ahead and learn the difference between sarcasm and simple minded mockery.

Animal Mother
09-04-2012, 20:26
Not that any one answer is right or wrong, but the truth is that it starts with a couple questions. Where did we come from? Why are we here?

Some believe we were made, some believe we just happened through understandable forces of nature.But, as has been pointed out many many times, only the latter group has any evidence to support their claims.

RC-RAMIE
09-04-2012, 21:16
Interesting, when an atheists is faced real and provable science, they act(?) stupid. Before you all get bent, please refresh yourselves with the differences between fact and theory. You all have the entire internet at your disposal to discover these differences. By the way, while you are here, you can go ahead and learn the difference between sarcasm and simple minded mockery.

Did I miss that real and provable science that has atheist acting stupid?


....

Altaris
09-04-2012, 21:39
Did I miss that real and provable science that has atheist acting stupid?


....

I think he is trying to make the claim of provable historical events where there are still none.


As Bren Alluded to, the book Abraham Lincoln Vampire Hunter is based on historical facts, with vampires thrown into the mix. Since there are historical provable facts of history in the book, does that also make the supernatural vampires real? We have proof of the places, and since we had reasonably educated and literate people taking notes at the time, we know with a decent amount of accuracy the events that took place. Even with all of that we still have people argue over the civil war and what Lincoln was really for(just find a confederate thread in GNG for an example of that).

Then we have the bible, coming long before Lincoln, with places in history which did possibly exist, but zero evidence about any supernatural happenings. All of which were stories passed down the generations by uneducated peasants.


Do you guys have any evidence other than, this one city/place used to exist a long time ago, and the bible mentioned it, therefore the whole bible is true?

dsa1115
09-04-2012, 21:52
George Carlin's take on religion is pretty funny.

George Carlin - Religion is bull****. - YouTube

High-Gear
09-04-2012, 22:14
Interesting, when an atheists is faced real and provable science, they act(?) stupid. Before you all get bent, please refresh yourselves with the differences between fact and theory. You all have the entire internet at your disposal to discover these differences. By the way, while you are here, you can go ahead and learn the difference between sarcasm and simple minded mockery.

Please sir, you learn the difference uses of the word "Theory". When used in the scientific sense it does not men "guess", that would be hypothesis. In science "Laws" explain what is occurring, "Theory" explains why it is occurring.

Laws of gravity (how an object acts) are contained in the "Theory" of gravitation of objects (why the object acts).

Since a "Theory" has to be tested repeatedly, and no controverting evidence found, it eventually becomes "Fact". Minor nuances can change as we learn more and more, but the theory is still fact.

Vic Hays
09-05-2012, 08:20
Apparently no one was able to refute the original posted evidence so I can have confidence that God exists.

I also have had many times in my life where God has saw fit to intervene and give me some help when I was not able to do anything about the situation.

Jude 1:24 Now to him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
1:25 To the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Kingarthurhk
09-05-2012, 11:13
Self Hypnosis (http://hypnosiscentral.net/selfhypnosis.html)

Mass Hypnosis (http://hypnosiscentral.net/masshypnosis.html)

Sorry, no metronoms or shiny objects involved.

Geko45
09-05-2012, 12:11
Apparently no one was able to refute the original posted evidence so I can have confidence that God exists.

I will submit Homer's Iliad and Odyssey as evidence to refute your posted bible passages. There is just as must historical and archeological evidence to support these works as true and accurate as there is for the bible and they predate most of the new testament books by nearly a thousand years and probably predate a great many old testament works as well. Furthermore, what these works tell us directly contradicts what the bible teaches on a great many topics (e.g. there are many gods, not just one). Therefore, they can't both be true.

So, tell me why I should accept the bible over Homer's narrative?

Cavalry Doc
09-05-2012, 13:01
Apparently no one was able to refute the original posted evidence so I can have confidence that God exists.

I also have had many times in my life where God has saw fit to intervene and give me some help when I was not able to do anything about the situation.

Jude 1:24 Now to him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
1:25 To the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Sounds like you have used inductive reasoning to reach your conclusion. Others come up with different answers. Just be happy with your own answer.

Vic Hays
09-05-2012, 13:20
So, tell me why I should accept the bible over Homer's narrative?

The Bible accurately predicts the future of the world. Does Homer's fable?

Daniel chapter 2 is the outline of world history in advance.

Babylon followed by
Greece followed by
Rome followed by a divided empire
the empire is never reunited and remains divided into the countries of Europe
God sets up His kingdom
Gods kingdom smashes all of the other kingdoms to dust.

Daniel 2:30 But as for me, this secret is not revealed to me for any wisdom that I have more than any living, but for their sakes that shall make known the interpretation to the king, and that thou mightest know the thoughts of thy heart.
2:31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible.
2:32 This image’s head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,
2:33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
2:34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
2:35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
2:36 This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.
2:37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
2:38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.
2:39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
2:40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
2:41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters’ clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
2:42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

Animal Mother
09-05-2012, 14:49
The Bible accurately predicts the future of the world. Does Homer's fable?

Daniel chapter 2 is the outline of world history in advance.

Babylon followed by
Greece followed by
Rome followed by a divided empire
the empire is never reunited and remains divided into the countries of Europe
God sets up His kingdom
Gods kingdom smashes all of the other kingdoms to dust. Or it's the Babylonians followed by
the Medo-Persians followed by
the Macedonians followed by
the Ptolemys and the Seleucids.

All of whom existed by the time Daniel was actually written.

Alternatively, there's Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome, which also requires no prophetic interpretation.

IhRedrider
09-05-2012, 18:22
but the theory is still fact.


Congratulations on your literary, grammatical and scientific fail. A truly impressive trifecta, in light of the availability of facts and truth.

Geko45
09-05-2012, 19:25
Daniel chapter 2 is the outline of world history in advance.

Use it to predict some future event between now and judgment day and I might actually believe you.

Cavalry Doc
09-05-2012, 19:32
Use it to predict some future event between now and judgment day and I might actually believe you.

I got one. You will live. You may die.

Mortality is supported by most of science.

Geko45
09-05-2012, 20:28
I got one. You will live. You may die.

Mortality is supported by most of science.

Put the bong down, man. I have no idea what you are talking about here.

Cavalry Doc
09-05-2012, 21:11
Put the bong down, man. I have no idea what you are talking about here.

You asked for a prediction of the future. I predict that you, along with the rest of us, is mortal.

Nice psychological projection on the pot you were smoking. Did I mention you should not play poker for money, you have these certain "tells" that are very obvious.

Animal Mother
09-05-2012, 21:18
I got one. You will live. You may die.

Mortality is supported by most of science.Daniel 2 discusses Geko45's mortality? That is certainly a unique interpretation.