I hate when I second-guess myself... [Archive] - Glock Talk

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WoodenPlank
09-03-2012, 12:56
...but it seems to be happening again.

For 2 years now, Winchester Ranger has been my go-to load for 357SIG. Time has come to order more carry ammo, and rotate what's in my carry mags, and I am starting to second guess my choice of load. The ~12" penetration (or slightly less in some tests) of the Ranger load concerns me, because it's just barely reaching the minimum.

Am I being paranoid about this? I'm seriously considering a switch to Gold Dots, which offer significantly more penetration at a slight cost of expansion.

Thoughts?

countrygun
09-03-2012, 13:17
I would be concerned if I feared being attacked by blocks of ballistic gelatin.

I think the whole issue of and inch, here and there, in penetration is a sign of our societies pre occupation with inconsequential incriments.

Trying to pick the "perfect" bullet for unknown circumstances is rendered impossible by the included variable of the unknown. Pick the high quality bullet that your pistol shoots bes and shoot it well, those are things you can actually control.

WoodenPlank
09-03-2012, 13:27
I would be concerned if I feared being attacked by blocks of ballistic gelatin.

I think the whole issue of and inch, here and there, in penetration is a sign of our societies pre occupation with inconsequential incriments.

Trying to pick the "perfect" bullet for unknown circumstances is rendered impossible by the included variable of the unknown. Pick the high quality bullet that your pistol shoots bes and shoot it well, those are things you can actually control.

It's more like 4" difference in penetration, not 1". A full 33% increase in penetration in gel with the GD over Ranger.

Honestly, what started this second guessing was that every LEA I know of using 357SIG issues Gold Dots, not Ranger.

Maybe they know something I don't? :dunno:

I might order a box or two of Gold Dots, and try them out next to my current Ranger load, and see if there's any significant difference in POA/POI or overall accuracy.

Tiro Fijo
09-03-2012, 14:11
You're overthinking this way too much. 12" is an arbitrary number agreed upon by the FBI & based on the average thickness of a human being. Any bullet that goes say 9" to 11 7/8" is not immediately a "dud" thereby disqualifying it from being lethal. It merely means it doesn't pass this test, which far too many put way too much stock in. Some of the legendary "manstoppers' of the past won't always reach 12" in the FBI test, yet amazingly the tens of thousands of bad guys that were shot with them remain lifeless.

cowboy1964
09-03-2012, 15:01
I would go with the Gold Dots simply because they have known street results. Also I just prefer bonded, especially in a faster bullet.

Sometimes I think the obsession with 12" is a bit much too.... then I see some of these monster dudes that our prison system is cranking out and I think "yeah, maybe not". Also keep in mind, 12" is without encountering bone.

unit1069
09-03-2012, 17:44
Right now I place my trust in 125-grain Gold Dot Product #54234 and 125-grain Federal HST, with 125-grain Remington Golden Saber Bonded awaiting testing in my pistol.

I also have had good results with Double Tap 147-grain Gold Dots (bought in 2007) but from what I can tell the lighter proven rounds yield the best self-defense results.

avenues165
09-03-2012, 18:55
I don't know much about the Winchester load or the HST load, but I think the GD is a good choice. Another that may be a good choice but probably has very few street results is the Rem GS bonded 125gr. GD, GS, HST, Winchester, etc. are probably all good selections.

Some argue that the bonded is the way to go and other say cup/core come closer to replicating the .357 mag. I am using the GD that is the lighter of the two loaded by Speer. I am using them in a G24 (6" barrel) and don't need the extra velocity.

Once I get the G32 barrel for my G23 I will be getting a new load. I am thinking either the hotter GD loading or the Underwood GD loading, depending on the results of TNOutdoors9 test on the Underwood load.

dkf
09-03-2012, 19:33
Winchesters QC lately has me more concerned than anything.

PghJim
09-04-2012, 07:33
The Secret Service originally specified that penetration and it cost Winchester over a million dollars to design the first Ranger T 357sig. The Secret Service has stated that it is the most effective round they have used. I believe the penetration is OK. Few know that the PDX1 357 Sig, or Ranger bonded was also designed for the Secret Service. It is the round I might might consider before GD's. I carry 125gr HST's, but must say that the GD has a good record. I have handloaded it for over 12 years and have not been impressed by its effectiveness on animals, but it is hard to argue the track record on people. Here is the video on the PDX1, but the late expansion concerns me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9tMqnNXaDY

If you have not, check out the 357 Sig HST testing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kLkpIljrNA

WoodenPlank
09-05-2012, 22:27
The Secret Service originally specified that penetration and it cost Winchester over a million dollars to design the first Ranger T 357sig. The Secret Service has stated that it is the most effective round they have used. I believe the penetration is OK. Few know that the PDX1 357 Sig, or Ranger bonded was also designed for the Secret Service. It is the round I might might consider before GD's. I carry 125gr HST's, but must say that the GD has a good record. I have handloaded it for over 12 years and have not been impressed by its effectiveness on animals, but it is hard to argue the track record on people. Here is the video on the PDX1, but the late expansion concerns me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9tMqnNXaDY

If you have not, check out the 357 Sig HST testing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kLkpIljrNA

Unless I have been horribly minsinformed, USSS issues Gold Dot.

PghJim
09-05-2012, 23:13
They may now, but that has more to do with government purchasing. I am just going through the history. The first Ranger T 357 sig round that Winchester made was for a large SS contract. I also know from my Winchester contacts that the 357 Sig Ranger Bonded was designed for the SS 4-5 years ago. The fact that Winchester took it public, may say something. I know the Sky Marshals were using the Speer 357sig low penetration round for a while. The only point I wanted to make is that the penetration of the Ranger 357 sig was for SS specification.

I would not use the Ranger Bonded (PDX1) because it is a medium to late energy release bullet. Compare tnoutdoors9 tests on the PDX1 and the HST 125gr 357 sigs and you will see that the HST starts to expand almost 2" before the PDX1. I carry 125 grain HST's which go about 1,415 fps out of my 4.5" barrel.

WoodenPlank
09-08-2012, 07:39
They may now, but that has more to do with government purchasing. I am just going through the history. The first Ranger T 357 sig round that Winchester made was for a large SS contract. I also know from my Winchester contacts that the 357 Sig Ranger Bonded was designed for the SS 4-5 years ago. The fact that Winchester took it public, may say something. I know the Sky Marshals were using the Speer 357sig low penetration round for a while. The only point I wanted to make is that the penetration of the Ranger 357 sig was for SS specification.


Understood, and thanks for the clarification.

Current plan is to order one box of GOld Dot when I order some ball ammo in the next week or two, and hit the range with both the GD and Ranger loads. I am going to test them side by side and see which one I prefer for POA/POI, overall accuracy, and if there is any difference in felt recoil. I'd rather have 11.5" rated penetration that goes where I want it than 16" that hits low/high/left/etc, or groups like crap.

Which ever one comes out as the better overall match to my 229 will be ordered in a larger quantity to reload carry mags with, and all of the older Ranger will get shot up for practice, as it's all at least 2 years old at this point.

hotpig
09-08-2012, 10:42
The big four are at a stalemate right now. With the exception of the 9mm Ranger Bonded there has not been any major spec changes advertised in their offerings. LE ammo that was good two years ago is still good today.

OctoberRust
09-08-2012, 17:44
take that extra money you were going to spend on SD ammo that you already have, and use it for training.

Even if it's a 4 inch difference (which I doubt would be the case in a clothed human) I'd feel completely confident. That's why I simply go 98bple, it's cheap and still does the job. I worry more about how quick I can shoot, and especially hip shooting for very close quarters.

just my .02 though.

WoodenPlank
09-09-2012, 12:31
The big four are at a stalemate right now. With the exception of the 9mm Ranger Bonded there has not been any major spec changes advertised in their offerings. LE ammo that was good two years ago is still good today.

I'm not so much worried about improvements as I am the fact that much of what I have has spent time in magazine pouches and pockets in the Florida heat and humidity. The last time I bought any 357SIG JHP was 2 years ago, and some of what I have is older than that - with no way to tell one from the other at this point. The original desire was simply to rotate carry ammo, with a sideline of seeing if there was a better option out there.

PaulMason
09-09-2012, 12:43
Thoughts?



Buy both, alternate loading them in magazine and then double tap.

hotpig
09-09-2012, 12:46
I try to switch mine out every couple of years at the longest because it gets pretty green colored some times.

Being a Arson Investigator and Engine Company Captain my Glock goes into burning buildings with me. Under my fire gear it is protected from the heat but gets a lot of sweat and humidity.

During Investigations I may crawl around a lot of the Glock gets covered with wet insulation, drywall, and ash. Often the chemical reaction of these after exposure to fire can be corrosive. I end up dropping the mag and hosing off the Glock or just running it under tap water. Glocks are pretty much maintenance free thankfully.

The ammo is more of the worry. For this reason I stay with ammo sealed at both ends.

WoodenPlank
09-09-2012, 12:59
Buy both, alternate loading them in magazine and then double tap.

:upeyes:

I try to switch mine out every couple of years at the longest because it gets pretty green colored some times.

The jackets on a lot of the Ranger I currently carry are pretty discolored from oil, humidity, and heat, and I have seen a little green around the occasional primer pocket. Nothing bad, it could easily be discoloration from the primer sealant or something. Either way, it's definitely time to rotate ammo stock.