Barrier penetration [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Lapietra
09-03-2012, 21:31
Another GT member posted this video in the GATE Self Defense Section.

http://www.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_c3#/video/bestoftv/2012/08/31/pkg-security-guard-shoots-thieves-internet-cafe.wesh

Beyond the obvious great job the security guard did in drawing his firearm and maneuvering while engaging his targets, the video to me shows how there can be barriers in between you and the bad guys and how important your caliber and ammo selection could end up being.

I can't tell if the guard shot through the posts and partition seen in the video or if he moved around them, but again shows how dynamic a violent encounter can be.

Your thoughs?

Tiro Fijo
09-04-2012, 02:39
My thoughts? If you have a barrier between you & them then use it as cover/concealment to skeedaddle & call the Police ASAP if possible. Bad guys usually aren't going to hang around once the shooting starts to ferret you out unless you owe then money or were tapping on the Jefe's Prepago. :supergrin:

PghJim
09-04-2012, 07:11
I hope that I can stay that focused. After watching it a few times, I do not think he fired through any barriers, nor does it look like he used them for cover. However, I think the BG's are lucky for the barriers.

Merkavaboy
09-04-2012, 08:25
Working Private Security is more akin to what a street cop may face more than an armed citizen carrying for personal SD. This guy probably has had more training than the majority of armed citizens and/or is a retired LEO. he also kept shooting/moving and at the end took cover at a hallway corner. Damn good work, but he should have performed a reload and stayed behind cover rather moving towards the threat(s).

unit1069
09-04-2012, 13:07
Working Private Security is more akin to what a street cop may face more than an armed citizen carrying for personal SD. This guy probably has had more training than the majority of armed citizens and/or is a retired LEO. he also kept shooting/moving and at the end took cover at a hallway corner. Damn good work, but he should have performed a reload and stayed behind cover rather moving towards the threat(s).

Everything I see in the video leads me to think the guard is or was a law enforcement officer with a lot of experience under his belt.

SCmasterblaster
09-12-2012, 16:56
I am afraid that I wouldn't have very good luck with barriers with my G17 and +p+ 115gr JHP loads. Maybe with 147gr bullets.

9mm +p+
09-12-2012, 19:03
I am afraid that I wouldn't have very good luck with barriers with my G17 and +p+ 115gr JHP loads. Maybe with 147gr bullets.

Velocity is the key to punching barriers, 115 +p+'s will punch holes in stuff much better than any 147.

collim1
09-12-2012, 19:51
Working Private Security is more akin to what a street cop may face more than an armed citizen carrying for personal SD. This guy probably has had more training than the majority of armed citizens and/or is a retired LEO. he also kept shooting/moving and at the end took cover at a hallway corner. Damn good work, but he should have performed a reload and stayed behind cover rather moving towards the threat(s).

Its easy to do when focusing on a threat.

KenB22
09-12-2012, 19:57
Velocity is the key to punching barriers, 115 +p+'s will punch holes in stuff much better than any 147.

The general rule of thumb is, light and fast tend to penetrate hard and elastic substances like sheet metal and car tires better. Slow and heavy tend to penetrate soft and cushioning substances such as heavy clothing, wood, tissue, and windshields better

SCmasterblaster
09-12-2012, 20:08
The general rule of thumb is, light and fast tend to penetrate hard and elastic substances like sheet metal and car tires better. Slow and heavy tend to penetrate soft and cushioning substances such as heavy clothing, wood, tissue, and windshields better

Which is what I am concerned a bit about whether or not my 115gr 9mm bullet at 1400 FPS will penetrate through a thick sternum or forehead. :dunno:

SCmasterblaster
09-15-2012, 11:04
Velocity is the key to punching barriers, 115 +p+'s will punch holes in stuff much better than any 147.

Thanks. Glad to hear it. My 115gr jhp 9mm bullet leaves my G17 at 1400 FPS.

PAGunner
09-16-2012, 12:34
Thanks. Glad to hear it. My 115gr jhp 9mm bullet leaves my G17 at 1400 FPS.

That information is incorrect and a myth people for whatever reason keep passing off as fact when in reality they have no idea what they're talking about.

Tiro Fijo
09-16-2012, 17:46
That information is incorrect and a myth people for whatever reason keep passing off as fact when in reality they have no idea what they're talking about.


Win. 9mm 115 gr. +p+ JHP does that regularly in a G17. It goes 1365 fps in my G19 on average. I'd like to think I know what I'm talking about.

unit1069
09-16-2012, 17:53
That information is incorrect and a myth people for whatever reason keep passing off as fact when in reality they have no idea what they're talking about.

From all I can tell pumping a 115-grain 9mm bullet to 1400 fps in a full size pistol is easily achievable in those pistols capable of firing hyped ammo.

PAGunner
09-16-2012, 19:00
Win. 9mm 115 gr. +p+ JHP does that regularly in a G17. It goes 1365 fps in my G19 on average. I'd like to think I know what I'm talking about.

I don't doubt it does, I was referring to the member who clearly doesn't understand ballistics giving false information, "velocity is the key to penetration", talking about what a good penetrator of barriers light & hot is. You have to go back and read what led up to that comment.

Tiro Fijo
09-16-2012, 19:34
I don't doubt it does, I was referring to the member who clearly doesn't understand ballistics giving false information, "velocity is the key to penetration", talking about what a good penetrator of barriers light & hot is. You have to go back and read what led up to that comment.


This same BS comes up every month or so and inevitably someone will prove ( as always) that the .357 SIG is the best penetrator on hard barriers with factory ammo. Old hat.

fastbolt
09-17-2012, 10:41
Nothing I saw contained in that video clip would make me reconsider any of the various calibers, loads or bullet designs I use in any of my revolvers or pistols. Why would it?

What it does reinforce is my desire to continue working to maintain my mindset, skillset, ability to employ "non-stationary" tactics and make aimed/accurate hits.

PAGunner
09-17-2012, 13:15
This same BS comes up every month or so and inevitably someone will prove ( as always) that the .357 SIG is the best penetrator on hard barriers with factory ammo. Old hat.

Definitely one of my biggest pet peeves, .357sig & .223/5.56 are the 2 rounds for whatever reason, the ill informed seem to assert have great barrier penetration, when in reality both of them suck bad against barriers. Of course, there are exceptions to the rule, but the take home point is pure velocity isn't what is important for barrier penetration, cross sectional density (and his momentum) & bullet construction are the 2 most important factors. With the right cross sectional density, more velocity helps assuming adequate bullet construction, but it's much less important than cross sectional density.

.357sig (125gr.), 115gr. 9mm & .223/5.56 all lack in cross sectional density. All are capable of being "high energy" (hard hitting) rounds that are generally not the best against barriers and generally penetrate shallow compared to other calibers.

dkf
09-17-2012, 14:13
If you actually think that the 125gr .357sig "sucks bad against barriers" you are one of the ill informed you despise. It is no worse than the other standard service calibers and can be slightly better in some circumstances. The .223 bullets are light and often even a psp cannot even handle the velocities without high amounts of deformation so that is what it is.

PAGunner
09-17-2012, 15:20
If you actually think that the 125gr .357sig "sucks bad against barriers" you are one of the ill informed you despise. It is no worse than the other standard service calibers and can be slightly better in some circumstances. The .223 bullets are light and often even a psp cannot even handle the velocities without high amounts of deformation so that is what it is.

.357sig is about the same performance wise as equivalent 9mm, ok against most barriers, but not so good with auto glass, which IMO is the ultimate test for a round.

dkf
09-17-2012, 15:32
The biggest problem with the .357sig vs autoglass that I have found is that it can difficult to find tests which compare the common rounds in the same test. ATK has some good test data on their site however they left the .357sig out of it. All but a couple factory JHP bullets chambered in .357sig use a proprietary bullet design for that particular cartridge, 9mm designs do not suffice.

PAGunner
09-17-2012, 15:50
The biggest problem with the .357sig vs autoglass that I have found is that it can difficult to find tests which compare the common rounds in the same test. ATK has some good test data on their site however they left the .357sig out of it. All but a couple factory JHP bullets chambered in .357sig use a proprietary bullet design for that particular cartridge, 9mm designs do not suffice.

True, bullet construction plays a big role, theoretically the .357sig should outperform 124gr. 9mm in barrier penetration on somethin like auto glass, but tests haven't shown this.

I'm not knocking the .357sig, or any hypervelocity rounds, I just get frustrated seeing misinformation about ballistics, especially pertaining to velocity & penetration.

On that note, I'd love to see what a truly well constructed 147gr. Bonded round would do against auto glass out of a .357sig, that would probably be a good barrier round.

dkf
09-17-2012, 16:56
Which tests are you referring to where the 9mm outperformed the .357sig?

M 7
09-17-2012, 17:40
When it comes to barrier penetration, the biggest concern that I have is mild steel sheet since it is present not only in car doors, but in grocery store shelving units and displays, file cabinets, office fixtures, and all sorts of other common-place stuff.

In Quantitative Ammunition Selection, there is a chapter that deals with barriers. It also includes a model that you can use to see how thick of a mild steel sheet your SD ammo will get through.

PAGunner
09-17-2012, 18:06
Which tests are you referring to where the 9mm outperformed the .357sig?

I wouldn't say 9mm outperforms .357sig, that would be silly. When discussing barrier penetration they're approximately equal. I've no doubt the sig "hits harder", that is a completely different topic.