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RDub01
09-04-2012, 22:49
Ok, what goin on here..

I finally got to shoot this brand new G20SF yesterday. Stock barrel and spring.
Nice sunny day around 60 in the morning and 80 late afternoon. 2700'. RH 45%.

I assembled some ammo using Starline brass, Rem 2 primers, and some Rainier 180gr FN bullets.

I'm using a LEE four die set. Moderate taper crimp.
COL was 1.250".. Factory loads I've seen were shorter than this a bit.

Loads;

8.5, 8.7grs Power Pistol
9.0grs Longshot
9.0grs 800-X
10.5, 10.8grs BlueDot
11.0grs AA#7
13.5grs AA #9 (CCI 300)

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f218/rafswede/10MM/DSC00918.jpg

Power Pistol loads were all over the place, as well with Longshot.
800-X wasn't much better.
BD and #7 were at least around the target.
#9 at least produced a 'group'..

The factory loads I shot did pretty well..

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f218/rafswede/10MM/Armscore%20180/DSC00919.jpg

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f218/rafswede/10MM/Win%20175%20ST/DSC00920.jpg

So, is the Rainier bullet not that great, or should I be looking at another bullet?
What might be happening here?

Thanks:embarassed:

orangeride
09-04-2012, 23:00
Your power pistol and Longshot loads both will likely produce more fps than those plated bullets like. Try a regular fmj or back down your load.

Taterhead
09-04-2012, 23:13
First, congratulations on the new purchase.

Rainier bullets have a purpose. That is for economical low-velocity range ammo. They are a soft plated bullet unlike a FMJ. Your loads are at or near maxes for FMJs.
That means that you are exceeding max loads for that bullet in at least a few of your loads.

So you might be encountering some hefty pressures because they are soft and act like an "in-between" bullet. Somewhere between cast lead and a jacketed bullet. FMJ load data must be backed down by 10%. Or data for cast lead can be used too. Berry's makes a similar bullet and they recommend that you do not load beyond mid-range loads from FMJ book data.

That thin plating can easily become disturbed and cause bullet distortion. If you look closely at your target strikes, you might find that some bullets are "keyholing" or hitting a little sideways. You might also be getting some leading in your bore.

Did you do load workups, or just pick stout charges and go?

What I suggest is backing way down on your loads and working up in small increments. For a 180 grain plated bullet, 9.2-9.3 grains of Blue Dot gives modest velocities, but the best groups I have found for a 180 grain plated bullet. Anything approaching 1100 fps or over gives poor groups. I can't get 800-X to group well with a plated bullet. 9.9 - 10.3 grains of Accurate no. 7 is respectable. Longshot has been very inconsistent in my limited testing (less than one pound burned). I have never worked with Power Pistol.

If you want to shoot plated bullets, PowerBond bullets perform much better without the fussiness required by Berry's or Rainier. 13.5 grains of Accurate no. 9 under a 180 gr PowerBond FP groups very well. Their prices are better than Rainier too.

A couple of other essential steps for plated bullets in order to not disturb the plating:

Give a generous case mouth flare.
Seat and crimp in seperate steps
Seat out to 1.26"
Crimp just enough to remove the bell. Do not engrave the bullet at all with crimps.
Keep velocities below 1100 fps.

Doing that will give good range and IDPA-type fodder. Pushing faster will give mixed results. You saw that firsthand.

Good luck.

dm1906
09-04-2012, 23:40
Ranier bullets are fine for .40 S&W. Suck for 10mm. Same with Berry's. If you want to go fast, get Hornady or Speer TMJ's, or real jackets. Hard cast works, too.

RDub01
09-05-2012, 05:15
Ok, thanks much.

Taterhead thanks for the heads up.
That all makes perfect sense. I have not used a plated before so lesson learned there.. I probably did use too much crimp also.
I was watching every case as it was fired, looking for pressure signs and they all miked Ok.

Well if these are relegated to lower velocity, would a powder like Titegroup be something to try? Titegroup works well for me in the .40..

I'll give that BD load a try.. Since I have a box of 500, gotta shoot em up some how..

Oh, I'm going to use some 'real' bullets, just haven't picked up any. I have a bunch of 155gr Rem JHP I shoot in the .40, but nothing heavier at the moment. I wanted to get a 180 and/or 200gr load worked out first.

Thanks again.

Taterhead
09-05-2012, 23:15
Ok, thanks much.

Taterhead thanks for the heads up.
That all makes perfect sense. I have not used a plated before so lesson learned there.. I probably did use too much crimp also.
I was watching every case as it was fired, looking for pressure signs and they all miked Ok.

Well if these are relegated to lower velocity, would a powder like Titegroup be something to try? Titegroup works well for me in the .40..

I'll give that BD load a try.. Since I have a box of 500, gotta shoot em up some how..

Oh, I'm going to use some 'real' bullets, just haven't picked up any. I have a bunch of 155gr Rem JHP I shoot in the .40, but nothing heavier at the moment. I wanted to get a 180 and/or 200gr load worked out first.

Thanks again.

It took me a while to figure out this type of bullet, but I have since shot thousands of them. I bought a bunch when I could get them via a group buy for about $85/1000. The price has gone WAY up.

Don't go Tightgroup. It is not appropriate for 10mm. Maybe something like WSF or Accurate no. 5. But since you have it onhand, BD will work fine. It will just put some soot in your Glock since BD is a bit dirty at reduced pressures. No big deal. It'll clean right up. It was my IPDA load for a few years because of really good groups.

Seriously consider PowerBond 180s. Speeds up to at least 1200 are totally fine (that is as far as I have pushed them so far), and you can order in quantities as small as 500. I discovered them earlier this year and have gone through 1500 +. Shipping is included. You can use jacketed bullet load data for them. Otherwise your plan to go with a traditional jacketed bullet for faster velocities is sound. A lot of guys like Precision Delta too. Minimum quantities of 2000 is the only downside. For a similar price, the PowerBonds can be tried in a smaller quantity. I have become somewhat of a PB fanboy, but I have been pretty impressed with the value. Good bullet. Good price.

powerbondbullets.com

nickE10mm
09-06-2012, 15:01
Yep... back down on most of those loads. They are all a bit high for plated bullets. If you loaded the same loads with jacketed bullets you'd see much better groups. You might be shearing the plating off those bullets....

davsco
09-06-2012, 15:25
clearly you got a bum g20. nice guy that i am, will take that off your hands for $100.

j/k, the factory loads look nice so a little work with the handloads and sure they'll be better.

i just got some fed and hornady defense loads for my g20 and need to test them out.

Buski
09-06-2012, 15:59
Understand, your from the Pacific NW?

Did a tour @ Ft. Lewis, & spent a great deal of time, in Oregon..& shot alot of Ranier & Laser Cast bullets:supergrin:.

Shot alot of "steel Challenge" & GSSF matches w/my G20.

As recommended earlier, I would tone down your loads & use the Raniers for training &/or competion.

Several recommendations:

- 6.1gr of Unique, 1.26 OAL
- 9.2gr of AA7, " "
- 7.6gr of AA5, " "

If you want to "push" to 10mm velocities, go to a Hornady XTP.


Good shooting & congrats on the 20SF!

alank2
09-06-2012, 18:33
Hi,

I'm about to load some of these for 10mm:

40 S&W (.400 Diameter) - 200 GR TCFM - $126.65 for 1K shipping included

http://www.rozedist.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=RZD&Category_Code=ZBJ-40SW

Good luck,

Alan

RDub01
09-06-2012, 18:52
Thanks again for the exellent repies

Now that I've done some more research, had I done so sooner, I would have picked up some Powerbond or some of the others mentioned.. Oh well.

Buski; thanks for the load suggestions. I have those powders so I'll try it.
I did a tour with the 82nd Airborne in the early '80s:cool: Got to see a little island called Grenada.

Well headin out to the shop to pull some bullets.. start over..:yawn:

Taterhead
09-06-2012, 23:01
Thanks again for the exellent repies

Now that I've done some more research, had I done so sooner, I would have picked up some Powerbond or some of the others mentioned.. Oh well.

Buski; thanks for the load suggestions. I have those powders so I'll try it.
I did a tour with the 82nd Airborne in the early '80s:cool: Got to see a little island called Grenada.

Well headin out to the shop to pull some bullets.. start over..:yawn:

Thank you for your service! :wavey:

Measure the case mouth diameter before on a few before you pull them. If you have engraved your bullets at all from crimping you'll know what the measurement of too much crimp is.

RDub01
09-07-2012, 05:30
Thank you for your service! :wavey:

Measure the case mouth diameter before on a few before you pull them. If you have engraved your bullets at all from crimping you'll know what the measurement of too much crimp is.

Thanks

Oh boy.. Yep they were starting to look like little muffin-tops.:shocked: Fortunately there wasn't very many...

Buski
09-07-2012, 07:45
I did a tour with the 82nd Airborne in the early '80s:cool: Got to see a little island called Grenada.




Graduated 1/75 Bn RIP, in early 84; so, I arrived a little late for the jump. Retired in 07.

10mm is "the" pistola cartridge. Only wish I had caught on earlier.

Good shooting!

BenKeith
09-07-2012, 21:19
Want an eye opener, shoot a couple hundred 22LR's through a Ruger MKIII and then pop several rounds of 10mm, 180gr JHP's with 11.4gr's of BlueDot behind them.

My favorite practice round are 135gr copper clads with 6.0 gr's W231. I shoot these hundreds at the time. I actually load these in 40 S&W brass but don't see why the same load wouldn't work in 10mm brass. (I use a LW 40 S&W barrel for these and the factory spring and the brass pretty much piles up a your feet, making it very easy to find). My 10mm practice round is 165gr Montana Golds with 10.4 gr's Blue Dot. I usually don't shoot more than about 50 of these at one time, arthritis gives me trouble if I do. Every now and then I shot the 180's for my carry loads just to keep the feel. I load the 135's in 40 S$W because I never want to take the chance of getting some of these dinky loads mixed in with 10mm loads. My lightest 10mm load is still a fairly potent round and would still stop most anything if I happen to get some mixed in a clip.

I spent three months at Fort Lewis from Jan - March in 1982. During that three months, I never got to walk inside a building, spent the whole time in the woods trying for figure how the hell to get warm and keep dry, we could not have any kind of a heat source like a fire or heaters because of the heat signature they would create. It was all kinds of fun trying to dig foxholes in frozen ground, and had to dig a lot of them since we relocated every 24 - 72 hours. I was part of a special team, developing the deployment of a secret weapon system going to Europe and the picked Fort Lewis to simulate northern Germany's winter climate. I was playing the genuine GI Joe roll, I went through Ranger School and spent over two years training with the Special Forces, spent two years in all kinds of climates for months at the time, and the pisser of this was "I was Air Force!!!".

RDub01
09-08-2012, 09:35
I spent three months at Fort Lewis from Jan - March in 1982. During that three months, I never got to walk inside a building, spent the whole time in the woods trying for figure how the hell to get warm and keep dry, we could not have any kind of a heat source like a fire or heaters because of the heat signature they would create. It was all kinds of fun trying to dig foxholes in frozen ground, and had to dig a lot of them since we relocated every 24 - 72 hours. I was part of a special team, developing the deployment of a secret weapon system going to Europe and the picked Fort Lewis to simulate northern Germany's winter climate. I was playing the genuine GI Joe roll, I went through Ranger School and spent over two years training with the Special Forces, spent two years in all kinds of climates for months at the time, and the pisser of this was "I was Air Force!!!".

That brings back too many memeories.. LOL I was amazed at how COLD the woods of N. Carolina can get.
Yep, in the military you can 'go for it' all you want for as long as you want..:supergrin: