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FCoulter
09-05-2012, 09:46
Well as the fall season dawns upon us, Gods fall Holy Day season begins.Starting Sept. 17 we will celebrate The Feast of Trumpets, this is a very important Feast Day in Gods plan for mankind.


Sept.26 we will issue in The Day of Atonement, another very important Day in the furture of Gods People.


Then on Oct.1-7 we celebrate the most looked forward to of Gods Holy Days. The Feast of Tabernacles. It is rounded up on Oct.8 with The Last Great Day.


I am excited we are in the fall Holy Day season.
Me and my family will be in the Smokey Mountains during Tabernacles.


These are Gods annual Sabbaths that along with His weekly Sabbath are to be kept forever. They are all shown being kept in the New Test long after Christ died. The prophecy of the OT clearly shows we will be keeping them after Jesus returns.


So the ball is in your court, you can embrace Gods commands and enjoy them as God wants us to, or you can choose satans deception can reject them.


The choice is yours.

Vic Hays
09-05-2012, 13:31
Well as the fall season dawns upon us, Gods fall Holy Day season begins.Starting Sept. 17 we will celebrate The Feast of Trumpets, this is a very important Feast Day in Gods plan for mankind.


Sept.26 we will issue in The Day of Atonement, another very important Day in the furture of Gods People.


Then on Oct.1-7 we celebrate the most looked forward to of Gods Holy Days. The Feast of Tabernacles. It is rounded up on Oct.8 with The Last Great Day.


I am excited we are in the fall Holy Day season.
Me and my family will be in the Smokey Mountains during Tabernacles.


These are Gods annual Sabbaths that along with His weekly Sabbath are to be kept forever. They are all shown being kept in the New Test long after Christ died. The prophecy of the OT clearly shows we will be keeping them after Jesus returns.


So the ball is in your court, you can embrace Gods commands and enjoy them as God wants us to, or you can choose satans deception can reject them.


The choice is yours.

There is a third choice. It is to reject your deceptions.

Galatians 4:1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
4:2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
4:8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.

FCoulter
09-05-2012, 15:04
Some people dont have a clue what Paul is talking about in Galations.They try to reason it out in their own mind and reject all the scripture that disproves their way of thinking.


God knew this though when He inspired this to be written.


Proverbs 14:12
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Jesus is clear what He will say to those that teach lawlessness, and that Gods laws, His Sabbaths,commands are no longer to be kept.


Matt. 7:<sup class="versenum" style="font-size: 0.75em; line-height: normal; font-weight: bold; vertical-align: top; ">21 </sup>Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
<sup class="versenum" style="font-size: 0.75em; line-height: normal; font-weight: bold; vertical-align: top; ">22 </sup>Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
<sup class="versenum" style="font-size: 0.75em; line-height: normal; font-weight: bold; vertical-align: top; ">23 </sup>And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.(lawlessness)


So go on teaching, picking and choosing which of Gods laws fit into your life style.


I promise by Gods word, some day you will stand before Jesus and Matt. 7 will become clear.


Till then dont rain on the parade of Gods people who truely know Him and the purpose of His Holy Days.


Just carry on keeping pagan days that men made and be happy in that.

rgregoryb
09-05-2012, 15:30
A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.
Friedrich Nietzsche

Schabesbert
09-05-2012, 16:58
Some people dont have a clue what Paul is talking about in Galations.
That's very true. You seem to follow "some people."

They try to reason it out in their own mind and reject all the scripture that disproves their way of thinking.
Yes; this Coulter guy is one two of them. :tongueout:

Posting scripture that says that some men will follow incorrect doctrines isn't evidence that YOUR man-made doctrine is correct.

Vic, I'm glad to see that you're finally starting to see that the OT Law has been fulfilled and thus abrogated.

We're no longer under the OLD covenant, but under the NEW.

FCoulter
09-05-2012, 17:10
That's very true. You seem to follow "some people."


Yes; this Coulter guy is one two of them. :tongueout:

Posting scripture that says that some men will follow incorrect doctrines isn't evidence that YOUR man-made doctrine is correct.

Vic, I'm glad to see that you're finally starting to see that the OT Law has been fulfilled and thus abrogated.

We're no longer under the OLD covenant, but under the NEW.
Well, please enlighten us on the true meaning of galations dear Bert.

As for Vic, hes a fence rider. He picks and chooses which laws he wants to keep...wait I am sorry. He doesnt pick and choose which laws to keep. He let a half crazed woman from the 1800's choose for him.

Schabesbert
09-05-2012, 17:30
Well, please enlighten us on the true meaning of galations dear Bert.
In just a couple of sentences?

He wrote this to defend the Gospel against the Judaizers.
Read in conjunction with Romans & Hebrews, it is clear that the old Law was part of the Old Covenant, and not the New.

IhRedrider
09-05-2012, 18:29
You do realize that the man you refer to as "Jesus" was born to a Jewish woman and was raised as a "Jew". How does that fit into your claims that "the "Feasts of the Jews" is not important to Jesus" doctrine?

Vic Hays
09-06-2012, 00:45
You do realize that the man you refer to as "Jesus" was born to a Jewish woman and was raised as a "Jew". How does that fit into your claims that "the "Feasts of the Jews" is not important to Jesus" doctrine?

The importance of the feasts was to foreshadow as a type the coming of Christ. When Jesus came the feast days and laws of Moses met their fulfillment in Him.

Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of two one new man, so making peace;
2:16 And that he might reconcile both to God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

This is not the Ten Commandments which are the Covenant. These are the book of the law of Moses that was added because of transgressions.

Galatians 2:14 having blotted out the handwriting in the ordinances that is against us, that was contrary to us, and he hath taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross;
2:15 having stripped the principalities and the authorities, he made a shew of them openly — having triumphed over them in it.
2:16 Let no one, then, judge you in eating or in drinking, or in respect of a feast, or of a new moon, or of sabbaths,
2:17 which are a shadow of the coming things, and the body [is] of the Christ;

Brasso
09-06-2012, 18:45
A shadow of things to come. Future tense. He only fulfilled the spring feasts the first time. He will fulfill the fall feasts on the rebound. How can He have fufilled them all Vic? What about prophecy? Has it ALL been fufilled?

I hate to sound like a broken record, but your theology is wrong because you contradict your own Messiah.

Mat 5:18 “For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done.

Sorry, but as much as you would like it to be so, Scripture cannot be broken. And I trust His Word, which is why I obey. That's the biblical definition of faith. Do you Shema?

See the sig line. FOREVER.

Kingarthurhk
09-06-2012, 20:19
A shadow of things to come. Future tense. He only fulfilled the spring feasts the first time. He will fulfill the fall feasts on the rebound. How can He have fufilled them all Vic? What about prophecy? Has it ALL been fufilled?

I hate to sound like a broken record, but your theology is wrong because you contradict your own Messiah.

Mat 5:18 “For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done.

Sorry, but as much as you would like it to be so, Scripture cannot be broken. And I trust His Word, which is why I obey. That's the biblical definition of faith. Do you Shema?

See the sig line. FOREVER.

Isaiah 59 has nothing to do with your annual feast days.

Blast
09-07-2012, 01:03
A shadow of things to come. Future tense. He only fulfilled the spring feasts the first time. He will fulfill the fall feasts on the rebound. How can He have fufilled them all Vic? What about prophecy? Has it ALL been fufilled?

I hate to sound like a broken record, but your theology is wrong because you contradict your own Messiah.

Mat 5:18 “For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done.

Sorry, but as much as you would like it to be so, Scripture cannot be broken. And I trust His Word, which is why I obey. That's the biblical definition of faith. Do you Shema?

See the sig line. FOREVER.
John 19:30
30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Brasso
09-07-2012, 09:29
John 19:30
30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Uhh, yeah. Does this really need a response?

But if I don't you'll just accuse me of not being able to refute it. So I will.

The earth is still here. Wake up!

Brasso
09-07-2012, 09:30
Isaiah 59 has nothing to do with your annual feast days.

When you understand that the Word is the Word, it has everything to do with it.

Paul and John both refer to them.

...the Last Trump...
...the Wedding Supper of the Lamb...

I'll let you figure it out. You might learn something.

Blast
09-07-2012, 10:36
Uhh, yeah. Does this really need a response?

But if I don't you'll just accuse me of not being able to refute it. So I will.

The earth is still here. Wake up!
Then Christ was referring to moral law.
What does "it is finished" mean?
Why did Christ intervene in a Mosaic law that required death for the sin of the woman in John chapter 8? That law was not carried out. Was that a jot or a tittle?
And I've heard the different "excuses" which are BS.
Christ set the precedent for the future in that passage.
Another point... the very foundation of Christian doctrine is REPENTANCE, FORGIVENESS, LOVE.
How can a sinner repent if that sinner is killed according to the law? Repentance is for the living.
The Mosaic punishment laws are contrary to Christ's teachings. They can't exist together any more than matter and anti-matter.
The math is pretty clear the harsh laws were hung on the cross.

Kingarthurhk
09-07-2012, 15:31
When you understand that the Word is the Word, it has everything to do with it.

Paul and John both refer to them.

...the Last Trump...
...the Wedding Supper of the Lamb...

I'll let you figure it out. You might learn something.

So, you are confusing the the Second Comming, and the Resurection.

Brasso
09-07-2012, 15:42
So, you are confusing the the Second Comming, and the Resurection.

I guess there's a point or a question in there somewhere. Could you be more precise?


Then Christ was referring to moral law.
What does "it is finished" mean?
Why did Christ intervene in a Mosaic law that required death for the sin of the woman in John chapter 8? That law was not carried out. Was that a jot or a tittle?

He wasn't referring to any law. His mission was finished. He did what He was sent to do. At that point He cried out "Father, Father, why have you spared me (Aramaic Translation) and gave up His Spirit.

The woman you're speaking of wasn't punished because she had no accusers. Very simple. Two or more witnesses are required to establish a fact. There were none. Over.

Furthermore, where was the man? She can't commit fornication by herself. The accusers were not following the Torah in bringing her there alone any way. They knew they were wrong. They were called on it. And they left.

Blast
09-07-2012, 23:06
I guess there's a point or a question in there somewhere. Could you be more precise?

He wasn't referring to any law. His mission was finished. He did what He was sent to do. At that point He cried out "Father, Father, why have you spared me (Aramaic Translation) and gave up His Spirit.

The woman you're speaking of wasn't punished because she had no accusers. Very simple. Two or more witnesses are required to establish a fact. There were none. Over.

Furthermore, where was the man? She can't commit fornication by herself. The accusers were not following the Torah in bringing her there alone any way. They knew they were wrong. They were called on it. And they left.
He was sent to fulfill and did.

She was caught in the act. As for the man, obviously he escaped. There is no reference to the details which is not the point of the passage.

1 Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.

2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.

3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,

4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.


There were no longer any accusers because Christ shamed them into leaving.
There is no question she was guilty according to the law. Christ acknowledged that.
Christ did not argue legalities and procedures. He set the stage for what was to come at Calvary.
Christ set the precedent for the future in that passage.

You did not address the following...

Another point... the very foundation of Christian doctrine is REPENTANCE, FORGIVENESS, LOVE.
How can a sinner repent if that sinner is killed according to the law? Repentance is for the living.
The Mosaic punishment laws are contrary to Christ's teachings. They can't exist together any more than matter and anti-matter.

We will have to agree to disagree because I'm not changing my convictions on the issue.

Vic Hays
09-08-2012, 09:28
Then Christ was referring to moral law.
What does "it is finished" mean?
Why did Christ intervene in a Mosaic law that required death for the sin of the woman in John chapter 8? That law was not carried out. Was that a jot or a tittle?
And I've heard the different "excuses" which are BS.
Christ set the precedent for the future in that passage.
Another point... the very foundation of Christian doctrine is REPENTANCE, FORGIVENESS, LOVE.
How can a sinner repent if that sinner is killed according to the law? Repentance is for the living.
The Mosaic punishment laws are contrary to Christ's teachings. They can't exist together any more than matter and anti-matter.
The math is pretty clear the harsh laws were hung on the cross.

How can someone be told to sin no more if their is no longer a law to break?

The moral law remains, the change is to be inside of us by the Holy Spirit.

The Mosaic laws were meant for the ancient nation of Israel. You can see in the following two verses that these laws were separate, the Covenant ten commandments and the statutes and judgments which were the Law of Moses.

Deuteronomy 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.
4:14 And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.

Brasso
09-09-2012, 06:56
The Mosaic punishment laws are contrary to Christ's teachings. They can't exist together any more than matter and anti-matter.

Hogwash!

He is the one who gave those laws in the first place. He is the same yesterday, today, and FOREVER. You are the one who can't exist together with His commandments. He asked her, "Where are your accusers?" There were none. He was following the Law.

Not one jot or tittle.

Brasso
09-09-2012, 06:58
The Mosaic laws were meant for the ancient nation of Israel. You can see in the following two verses that these laws were separate, the Covenant ten commandments and the statutes and judgments which were the Law of Moses.

And they were told to keep them forever. Quit dividing God up into slices of Vic's approval.

fgutie35
09-09-2012, 07:23
I will have to agree with Brasso on this one. All those who oppose, go back and read the whole thing, not just the one your pastor pointed out or spoke about, when Jesus said he came to fullfill the prophesy. Jesus as a jew himself, and the apolstols continued to observe many of the jewish feasts. What changed was that WE gentiles were added to the mix, therefore similar observances were to be made by US, like the breaking of the bread and others. If we are to follow a Judeo-Christian faith, then we have to comply with both observances. That is my opinion.

Vic Hays
09-09-2012, 11:21
I will have to agree with Brasso on this one. All those who oppose, go back and read the whole thing, not just the one your pastor pointed out or spoke about, when Jesus said he came to fullfill the prophesy. Jesus as a jew himself, and the apolstols continued to observe many of the jewish feasts. What changed was that WE gentiles were added to the mix, therefore similar observances were to be made by US, like the breaking of the bread and others. If we are to follow a Judeo-Christian faith, then we have to comply with both observances. That is my opinion.

fgutie

I noticed that you said, " therefore similar observances were to be made by US." I think what you mean was that all believers were to observe the same ordinances, both Jew and Gentile alike.

What does this scripture written by Paul say to you?

Acts 21:20 And they, when they heard it, glorified God; and they said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of them that have believed; and they are all zealous for the law:
21:21 and they have been informed concerning thee, that thou teachest all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children neither to walk after the customs.
21:22 What is it therefore? They will certainly hear that thou art come.
21:23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men that have a vow on them;
21:24 these take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges for them, that they may shave their heads: and all shall know that there is no truth in the things whereof they have been informed concerning thee; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, keeping the law.
21:25 But as touching the Gentiles that have believed, we wrote, giving judgment that they should keep themselves from things sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what is strangled, and from fornication.

It seems to me that there was a different standard of behavior for the Jews and Gentile believers regarding the ordinances written in the Book of the Law.

Kingarthurhk
09-09-2012, 12:36
Hogwash!

He is the one who gave those laws in the first place. He is the same yesterday, today, and FOREVER. You are the one who can't exist together with His commandments. He asked her, "Where are your accusers?" There were none. He was following the Law.

Not one jot or tittle.

Well, Moses is doing well these days I am sure, considering he was given an early resurrection. Now, please explain why all the feasts must be kept, yet you still do not make peace offerings, thank offerings and sin offerings? Why do you not follow the command given by Moses on divorce, theft, and injury?

I will give you a hint the feasts are types. Moses was also a type, but I don't see you bowing down and praying to him. What I am seeing is scripture is not being treated in harmony, or harmenutics, if you will, but a stuborn resolve not to see the interconnected nature and the blustering at others for seeing what you do not see.

rgregoryb
09-09-2012, 14:36
Luke 16:16 NRSV

‘The law and the prophets were in effect until John came; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is proclaimed, and everyone tries to enter it by force.

fgutie35
09-09-2012, 15:19
No, what I meant is that the feasts and observances Jesus kept on doing are to continue, but the ones that were fulfilled with his arrival ended at that time. On top of those observances he continued to do, he left instructions on the observances, feasts and rituals that WE gentiles are suppose to do until his second return. To put it in simple terms, the First Covenant, was made to be followed by the Jews; the Second Covenant was made to be followed by everybody else along with the jews, therefore we still have to honor those observances Jesus continued to do, because those are for everybody and forever, cause they were ordered by God to be so.
Did I explained myself now?

Kingarthurhk
09-09-2012, 17:18
No, what I meant is that the feasts and observances Jesus kept on doing are to continue, but the ones that were fulfilled with his arrival ended at that time. On top of those observances he continued to do, he left instructions on the observances, feasts and rituals that WE gentiles are suppose to do until his second return. To put it in simple terms, the First Covenant, was made to be followed by the Jews; the Second Covenant was made to be followed by everybody else along with the jews, therefore we still have to honor those observances Jesus continued to do, because those are for everybody and forever, cause they were ordered by God to be so.
Did I explained myself now?

Can you elaborate what exactly these feasts are and when, where, and how they are to be kept?

Brasso
09-09-2012, 17:50
These laws, the Torah, and the Feasts were NOT to be kept by the Jews. They were to be kept by Israel, of which the Jews were 2 of 12 tribes. You think they're Jewish because only the tribe of Judah ever came back to Israel after the dispersion. And they aren't the Jews Feasts, or Israel's Feasts. They're YHWH's Feasts.

Lev 23:2 “Speak to the children of Yisra’ĕl, and say to them, ‘The appointed times of יהוה, which you are to proclaim as set-apart gatherings, My appointed times, are these:

2Ch 2:4 see, I am building a House for the Name of יהוה my Elohim, to set it apart to Him, to burn before Him sweet incense, and for the continual showbread, and for the burnt offerings morning and evening, on the Sabbaths, and on the New Moons, and on the appointed times of יהוה our Elohim. This is for Yisra’ĕl forever.

So they are YHWH's Feasts. They are for Israel. And they are forever.

There is one Law for Israel and the gentile that joins Israel.

Messiah said not one jot or tittle will pass from the Torah till heaven and earth pass away.

Messiah came only for the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.

If you are in Messiah, you are Israel.

Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Messiah יהושע unto good works, which Elohim prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Eph 2:11 Therefore remember that you, once gentiles1 in the flesh, who are called ‘the uncircumcision’ by what is called ‘the circumcision’ made in the flesh by hands, Footnote: 11 Cor. 12:2.
Eph 2:12 that at that time you were without Messiah, excluded from the citizenship of Yisra’ĕl and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no expectation and without Elohim in the world.
Eph 2:13 But now in Messiah יהושע you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of the Messiah.


So there it is. As straight forward and easy to understand as it was meant to be before the RCC got it's filthy hands on it.

The Torah is for Israel. The Feasts are YHWH's and He gave them to Israel. They are forever. You are Israel.

Don't like it, take it up with God.

NMG26
09-09-2012, 18:01
These laws, the Torah, and the Feasts were NOT to be kept by the Jews. They were to be kept by Israel, of which the Jews were 2 of 12 tribes. You think they're Jewish because only the tribe of Judah ever came back to Israel after the dispersion. And they aren't the Jews Feasts, or Israel's Feasts. They're YHWH's Feasts.

So they are YHWH's Feasts. They are for Israel. And they are forever.

There is one Law for Israel and the gentile that joins Israel.

Messiah came only for the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.

If you are in Messiah, you are Israel.


So there it is. As straight forward and easy to understand as it was meant to be before the RCC got it's filthy hands on it.

Don't like it, take it up with God.


A well stated case.

Good job and thank you for taking the time.

.

Kingarthurhk
09-09-2012, 18:14
These laws, the Torah, and the Feasts were NOT to be kept by the Jews. They were to be kept by Israel, of which the Jews were 2 of 12 tribes. You think they're Jewish because only the tribe of Judah ever came back to Israel after the dispersion. And they aren't the Jews Feasts, or Israel's Feasts. They're YHWH's Feasts.

Lev 23:2 “Speak to the children of Yisra’ĕl, and say to them, ‘The appointed times of יהוה, which you are to proclaim as set-apart gatherings, My appointed times, are these:

2Ch 2:4 see, I am building a House for the Name of יהוה my Elohim, to set it apart to Him, to burn before Him sweet incense, and for the continual showbread, and for the burnt offerings morning and evening, on the Sabbaths, and on the New Moons, and on the appointed times of יהוה our Elohim. This is for Yisra’ĕl forever.

So they are YHWH's Feasts. They are for Israel. And they are forever.

There is one Law for Israel and the gentile that joins Israel.

Messiah said not one jot or tittle will pass from the Torah till heaven and earth pass away.

Messiah came only for the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.

If you are in Messiah, you are Israel.

Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Messiah יהושע unto good works, which Elohim prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Eph 2:11 Therefore remember that you, once gentiles1 in the flesh, who are called ‘the uncircumcision’ by what is called ‘the circumcision’ made in the flesh by hands, Footnote: 11 Cor. 12:2.
Eph 2:12 that at that time you were without Messiah, excluded from the citizenship of Yisra’ĕl and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no expectation and without Elohim in the world.
Eph 2:13 But now in Messiah יהושע you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of the Messiah.


So there it is. As straight forward and easy to understand as it was meant to be before the RCC got it's filthy hands on it.

The Torah is for Israel. The Feasts are YHWH's and He gave them to Israel. They are forever. You are Israel.

Don't like it, take it up with God.

Romans 1:16-17, "For I am not ashamed of the gospel,<sup class="crossreference" value='(AG (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-27947AG))'></sup> because it is the power of God<sup class="crossreference" value='(AH (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-27947AH))'></sup> that brings salvation to everyone who believes:<sup class="crossreference" value='(AI (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-27947AI))'></sup> first to the Jew,<sup class="crossreference" value='(AJ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-27947AJ))'></sup> then to the Gentile.<sup class="crossreference" value='(AK (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-27947AK))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">17 </sup>For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed<sup class="crossreference" value='(AL (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-27948AL))'></sup>—a righteousness that is by faith<sup class="crossreference" value='(AM (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-27948AM))'></sup> from first to last,<sup class="footnote" value='[e (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-27948e)]'>[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+1&version=NIV#fen-NIV-27948e)]</sup> just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”
<sup></sup>
<sup>Romans 11:11-36, "</sup>Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. <sup>12 </sup>But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!
<sup>13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.</sup>
<sup> </sup>
<sup>17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.</sup>
<sup> </sup>
<sup>22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!</sup>
<sup> </sup>
<sup>All Israel Will Be Saved</sup>

<sup>25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+11&version=NIV#fen-NIV-28236e)] all Israel will be saved. As it is written:</sup>
<sup>“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is[f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+11&version=NIV#fen-NIV-28237f)] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”[g (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+11&version=NIV#fen-NIV-28237g)]</sup>

<sup> </sup>
<sup>28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+11&version=NIV#fen-NIV-28241h)] receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.</sup>
<sup> </sup>
<sup>Doxology</sup>

<sup>33 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and[</sup><sup>i</sup> (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+11&version=NIV#fen-NIV-28243i)<sup>] knowledge of God!</sup>
<sup> How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
34 “Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?”[j (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+11&version=NIV#fen-NIV-28244j)]
35 “Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay them?”[k (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+11&version=NIV#fen-NIV-28245k)]
36 For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen."</sup>

Brasso
09-09-2012, 19:32
Exactly.

Vic Hays
09-09-2012, 21:26
No, what I meant is that the feasts and observances Jesus kept on doing are to continue, but the ones that were fulfilled with his arrival ended at that time. On top of those observances he continued to do, he left instructions on the observances, feasts and rituals that WE gentiles are suppose to do until his second return. To put it in simple terms, the First Covenant, was made to be followed by the Jews; the Second Covenant was made to be followed by everybody else along with the jews, therefore we still have to honor those observances Jesus continued to do, because those are for everybody and forever, cause they were ordered by God to be so.
Did I explained myself now?

I think I understand what you are saying, but this is not what the Bible says. Jesus instituted the communion service and baptism. Jesus did not command that the feasts and the law of Moses be kept.

Paul says over and over that that system is done with the Old Covenant.

Colossians 2:14 having blotted out the handwriting in the ordinances that is against us, that was contrary to us, and he hath taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross;
2:15 having stripped the principalities and the authorities, he made a shew of them openly — having triumphed over them in it.
2:16 Let no one, then, judge you in eating or in drinking, or in respect of a feast, or of a new moon, or of sabbaths,
2:17 which are a shadow of the coming things, and the body [is] of the Christ;

As far as the Jews and Gentiles the same applies the partition wall which is the Law of Moses is broken down.

Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of two one new man, so making peace;

Brasso
09-10-2012, 07:01
As far as the Jews and Gentiles the same applies the partition wall which is the Law of Moses is broken down.

Ahem.

The middle wall of partition was a real wall in the temple courtyard. It was a man made point from which gentile worshipers were not allowed to pass. In other words, they could only get so close, unless they converted. These were man made rules. Man made separations. It's these NON-Torah commandments that were broken down. It's the idea that gentiles were unclean that was broken down,. (Assuming they believe of course).

As far as the commandments that were against us....they are ALL against us, if we break them. He didn't do away with the Law. He did away with the penalty for breaking them....ie our sins.

Not one jot or tittle.

Be careful what you say Vic. You are calling God and Messiah a liar everytime you post something that is clearly breaking scripture. Over and over.

Vic Hays
09-10-2012, 08:50
Ahem.

The middle wall of partition was a real wall in the temple courtyard. It was a man made point from which gentile worshipers were not allowed to pass. In other words, they could only get so close, unless they converted. These were man made rules. Man made separations. It's these NON-Torah commandments that were broken down. It's the idea that gentiles were unclean that was broken down,. (Assuming they believe of course).

As far as the commandments that were against us....they are ALL against us, if we break them. He didn't do away with the Law. He did away with the penalty for breaking them....ie our sins.



Not one jot or tittle.

Be careful what you say Vic. You are calling God and Messiah a liar everytime you post something that is clearly breaking scripture. Over and over.

The middle wall of partition represented the Law of Moses according to Ephesians. Do you believe that Ephesians is inspired?

The Ten Commandments are not against those who have them written in their hearts.

The commandments that were against us is an allusion to what Moses said to Israel after he wrote them in the Book of the Law as can be seen here:

Deuteronomy 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against you.

That is why the book of the law was nailed to the cross.

Colosians 2:14 having effaced the handwriting in ordinances which [stood out] against us, which was contrary to us, he has taken it also out of the way, having nailed it to the cross;
2:15 having spoiled principalities and authorities, he made a show of them publicly, leading them in triumph by it.
2:16 Let none therefore judge you in meat or in drink, or in matter of feast, or new moon, or sabbaths,

Brasso
09-10-2012, 10:58
That passage doesn't mention the law one single time. In fact, the greek term used here was an actual legal term of the day. It meant a list of charges. It was used in court to describe what the accused was charged with breaking.

Two things can be taken from this.

1. He nailed our sins to the stake.
2. The separation, caused by uncleanliness, according to the Law, was removed for those in Messiah. Peter and Cornelius is the prime example of this. Gentiles were no longer unclean.

As far as the meat, drink, sabbaths, and feasts, it very clearly says not to let anyone, except the body of Messiah, judge you in keeping these things,for they are a shadow of things to come. They haven't even happened yet. We are to keep them. A 6th grader could break that passage down better than you have. They were told not to let other's judge them because they were gentiles. They weren't used to keeping the Feasts of God. They were used to things like Christmas and Easter. Pagan days, and festivals. They are told to not let these other pagans judge them, but only the body of Christ.

It's simplistically simple. Don't twist it. You are contradicting hundreds of other passages when you do this.

Vic Hays
09-10-2012, 15:30
That passage doesn't mention the law one single time. In fact, the greek term used here was an actual legal term of the day. It meant a list of charges. It was used in court to describe what the accused was charged with breaking.

Two things can be taken from this.

1. He nailed our sins to the stake.
2. The separation, caused by uncleanliness, according to the Law, was removed for those in Messiah. Peter and Cornelius is the prime example of this. Gentiles were no longer unclean.

As far as the meat, drink, sabbaths, and feasts, it very clearly says not to let anyone, except the body of Messiah, judge you in keeping these things,for they are a shadow of things to come. They haven't even happened yet. We are to keep them. A 6th grader could break that passage down better than you have. They were told not to let other's judge them because they were gentiles. They weren't used to keeping the Feasts of God. They were used to things like Christmas and Easter. Pagan days, and festivals. They are told to not let these other pagans judge them, but only the body of Christ.

It's simplistically simple. Don't twist it. You are contradicting hundreds of other passages when you do this.

Your denial is obvious in your answer. You say that the passage does not mention law and yet you allude to broken laws "sin". This "sin" of yours is a "shadow of things to come".
Does this mean our sins are a "shadow of things to come"?

Ordinances and judgments are used alternately with law throughout the Bible.

Babylon means confusion. Come out of Babylon, Brasso.

Kingarthurhk
09-10-2012, 15:33
That passage doesn't mention the law one single time. In fact, the greek term used here was an actual legal term of the day. It meant a list of charges. It was used in court to describe what the accused was charged with breaking.

Two things can be taken from this.

1. He nailed our sins to the stake.
2. The separation, caused by uncleanliness, according to the Law, was removed for those in Messiah. Peter and Cornelius is the prime example of this. Gentiles were no longer unclean.

As far as the meat, drink, sabbaths, and feasts, it very clearly says not to let anyone, except the body of Messiah, judge you in keeping these things,for they are a shadow of things to come. They haven't even happened yet. We are to keep them. A 6th grader could break that passage down better than you have. They were told not to let other's judge them because they were gentiles. They weren't used to keeping the Feasts of God. They were used to things like Christmas and Easter. Pagan days, and festivals. They are told to not let these other pagans judge them, but only the body of Christ.

It's simplistically simple. Don't twist it. You are contradicting hundreds of other passages when you do this.

Ephesians 2:11-22, "Therefore, remember that formerly<sup class="crossreference" value='(X (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29241X))'></sup> you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)<sup class="crossreference" value='(Y (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29241Y))'></sup>— <sup class="versenum">12 </sup>remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners<sup class="crossreference" value='(Z (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29242Z))'></sup> to the covenants of the promise,<sup class="crossreference" value='(AA (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29242AA))'></sup> without hope<sup class="crossreference" value='(AB (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29242AB))'></sup> and without God in the world. <sup class="versenum">13 </sup>But now in Christ Jesus you who once<sup class="crossreference" value='(AC (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29243AC))'></sup> were far away have been brought near<sup class="crossreference" value='(AD (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29243AD))'></sup> by the blood of Christ.<sup class="crossreference" value='(AE (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29243AE))'></sup>
<sup class="versenum">14 </sup>For he himself is our peace,<sup class="crossreference" value='(AF (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29244AF))'></sup> who has made the two groups one<sup class="crossreference" value='(AG (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29244AG))'></sup> and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, <sup class="versenum">15 </sup>by setting aside in his flesh<sup class="crossreference" value='(AH (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29245AH))'></sup> the law with its commands and regulations.<sup class="crossreference" value='(AI (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29245AI))'></sup> His purpose was to create in himself one<sup class="crossreference" value='(AJ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29245AJ))'></sup> new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, <sup class="versenum">16 </sup>and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross,<sup class="crossreference" value='(AK (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29246AK))'></sup> by which he put to death their hostility. <sup class="versenum">17 </sup>He came and preached peace<sup class="crossreference" value='(AL (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29247AL))'></sup> to you who were far away and peace to those who were near.<sup class="crossreference" value='(AM (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29247AM))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">18 </sup>For through him we both have access<sup class="crossreference" value='(AN (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29248AN))'></sup> to the Father<sup class="crossreference" value='(AO (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29248AO))'></sup> by one Spirit.<sup class="crossreference" value='(AP (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29248AP))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">19 </sup>Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers,<sup class="crossreference" value='(AQ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29249AQ))'></sup> but fellow citizens<sup class="crossreference" value='(AR (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29249AR))'></sup> with God’s people and also members of his household,<sup class="crossreference" value='(AS (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29249AS))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">20 </sup>built<sup class="crossreference" value='(AT (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29250AT))'></sup> on the foundation<sup class="crossreference" value='(AU (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29250AU))'></sup> of the apostles and prophets,<sup class="crossreference" value='(AV (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29250AV))'></sup> with Christ Jesus himself<sup class="crossreference" value='(AW (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29250AW))'></sup> as the chief cornerstone.<sup class="crossreference" value='(AX (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29250AX))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">21 </sup>In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple<sup class="crossreference" value='(AY (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29251AY))'></sup> in the Lord. <sup class="versenum">22 </sup>And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit."

Galatians 3:10-14, "For all who rely on the works of the law<sup class="crossreference" value='(P (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29113P))'></sup> are under a curse,<sup class="crossreference" value='(Q (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29113Q))'></sup> as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”<sup class="footnote" value='[e (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-29113e)]'>[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+3&version=NIV#fen-NIV-29113e)]</sup><sup class="crossreference" value='(R (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29113R))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">11 </sup>Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God,<sup class="crossreference" value='(S (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29114S))'></sup> because “the righteous will live by faith.”<sup class="footnote" value='[f (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-29114f)]'>[f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+3&version=NIV#fen-NIV-29114f)]</sup><sup class="crossreference" value='(T (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29114T))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">12 </sup>The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”<sup class="footnote" value='[g (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-29115g)]'>[g (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+3&version=NIV#fen-NIV-29115g)]</sup><sup class="crossreference" value='(U (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29115U))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">13 </sup>Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law<sup class="crossreference" value='(V (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29116V))'></sup> by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”<sup class="footnote" value='[h (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-29116h)]'>[h (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+3&version=NIV#fen-NIV-29116h)]</sup><sup class="crossreference" value='(W (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29116W))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">14 </sup>He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus,<sup class="crossreference" value='(X (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29117X))'></sup> so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit."

Hebrews 8:"Now the main point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest,<sup class="crossreference" value='(A (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30094A))'></sup> who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven,<sup class="crossreference" value='(B (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30094B))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">2 </sup>and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle<sup class="crossreference" value='(C (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30095C))'></sup> set up by the Lord, not by a mere human being.
<sup class="versenum">3 </sup>Every high priest<sup class="crossreference" value='(D (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30096D))'></sup> is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices,<sup class="crossreference" value='(E (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30096E))'></sup> and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer.<sup class="crossreference" value='(F (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30096F))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">4 </sup>If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already priests who offer the gifts prescribed by the law.<sup class="crossreference" value='(G (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30097G))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">5 </sup>They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy<sup class="crossreference" value='(H (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30098H))'></sup> and shadow<sup class="crossreference" value='(I (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30098I))'></sup> of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned<sup class="crossreference" value='(J (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30098J))'></sup> when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”<sup class="footnote" value='[a (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-30098a)]'>[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+8&version=NIV#fen-NIV-30098a)]</sup><sup class="crossreference" value='(K (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30098K))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">6 </sup>But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant<sup class="crossreference" value='(L (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30099L))'></sup> of which he is mediator<sup class="crossreference" value='(M (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30099M))'></sup> is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.

<sup class="versenum">7 </sup>For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.<sup class="crossreference" value='(N (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30100N))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">8 </sup>But God found fault with the people and said<sup class="footnote" value=''>[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+8&version=NIV#fen-NIV-30101b)]</sup>:
“The days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant<sup class="crossreference" value='(O (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30101O))'></sup>
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
<sup class="versenum">9 </sup>It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors<sup class="crossreference" value='(P (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30102P))'></sup>
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
<sup class="versenum">10 </sup>This is the covenant<sup class="crossreference" value='(Q (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30103Q))'></sup> I will establish with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.<sup class="crossreference" value='(R (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30103R))'></sup>
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.<sup class="crossreference" value='(S (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30103S))'></sup>
<sup class="versenum">11 </sup>No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,<sup class="crossreference" value='(T (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30104T))'></sup>
from the least of them to the greatest.
<sup class="versenum">12 </sup>For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.<sup class="crossreference" value='(U (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30105U))'></sup>”<sup class="footnote" value='[c (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-30105c)]'>[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+8&version=NIV#fen-NIV-30105c)]</sup><sup class="crossreference" value='(V (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30105V))'></sup>


<sup class="versenum">13 </sup>[B]By calling this covenant “new,”<sup class="crossreference" value='(W (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30106W))'></sup> he has made the first one obsolete;<sup class="crossreference" value='(X (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30106X))'></sup> and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear."

<sup class="crossreference" value='(AZ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29252AZ))'></sup>

FCoulter
09-10-2012, 16:40
2:16 Let none therefore judge you in meat or in drink, or in matter of feast, or new moon, or sabbaths,

Here we go again,Vic, trying to explain scripture through EW's teaching.


Lets see what it actually say ok.


Now we are ready to understand Colossians 2:16-17: “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holyday, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come, but the body is of Christ” (vs 16-17). Now let’s begin with the very basic understanding here, and let’s first of all ask what it does not say. Let’s look at that first sentence again.
1. The first sentence does not say that a believer does not have to obey these things does it? No.It doesn’t that we don’t have to observe these things? Not in any way.
2. It doesn’t say that these were abolished and no longer required to be observed.
Now let’s ask the question: What does it say? The first sentence says; “Let no man judge you.” Now what does it mean to let no man judge you? Simple, just what it says. Now when someone judges you, they are judging your behavior, correct? Yes. If they are judging your behavior, you are doing it, correct? Yes. Now what is most important here in understanding this is, is that we have a whole congregation, which was not Jewish. Colosse and the Colossians were all Gentiles (Col. 1:27). That Paul was “…making known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.”
Where he says here just in Colossians 2:13, he says: “…you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh…” So if these people, being former pagan converts, and as we are going to see, bothered by their former philosophical, religious teachers, they were the ones who were judging them because they were keeping the things that Paul listed here.
Now, v 16, you kind of lose an emphasis here, in the King James it says: “Let no man therefore judge you…” But the therefore in the Greek is most emphatic and really should be; “consequently in the light of everything I have written up to this point, let no one judge you in meat or drink, or in respect of a Holy Day or the new moon or of the Sabbath days, which are a shadow of things to come, but the body is of Christ.” Now one way of understanding that is this: That you are to not let any man, not within the Church, judge you concerning your observing of these things, but the Body of Christ, which is the Church. Now that is a correct understanding, but it is amplified even more than that when we understand the whole thing.
So what we have is this: We have, clearly told us that in eating, which is in meat or in drinking, which is in drink or in respect of a Holy Day or of the new moon or of the Sabbath “Which are a shadow of things to come” (v 17). These foreshadow what God is doing as compared to, as we will see, the philosophical traditions of men and the commandments of men; and those were the ones who were judging what they were doing.


In other words, since no man is to judge us, who is to judge us? Jesus Christ, the Word of God.
Even the Apostle Paul says, ‘I judge no man.’ Why, because we are all going to come before the judgment seat of God.

Kingarthurhk
09-10-2012, 16:48
Vic, you are trully blessed:

Matthew 5:1-12, "Now when Jesus saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, <sup class="versenum">2 </sup>and he began to teach them.
The Beatitudes<sup class="crossreference" value='(A (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23237A))'></sup>

He said:

<sup class="versenum">3 </sup>“Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.<sup class="crossreference" value='(B (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23238B))'></sup>
<sup class="versenum">4 </sup>Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.<sup class="crossreference" value='(C (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23239C))'></sup>
<sup class="versenum">5 </sup>Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.<sup class="crossreference" value='(D (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23240D))'></sup>
<sup class="versenum">6 </sup>Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.<sup class="crossreference" value='(E (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23241E))'></sup>
<sup class="versenum">7 </sup>Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.<sup class="crossreference" value='(F (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23242F))'></sup>
<sup class="versenum">8 </sup>Blessed are the pure in heart,<sup class="crossreference" value='(G (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23243G))'></sup>
for they will see God.<sup class="crossreference" value='(H (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23243H))'></sup>
<sup class="versenum">9 </sup>Blessed are the peacemakers,<sup class="crossreference" value='(I (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23244I))'></sup>
for they will be called children of God.<sup class="crossreference" value='(J (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23244J))'></sup>
<sup class="versenum">10 </sup>Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,<sup class="crossreference" value='(K (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23245K))'></sup>
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.<sup class="crossreference" value='(L (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23245L))'></sup>


<sup class="versenum">11 </sup>“Blessed are you when people insult you,<sup class="crossreference" value='(M (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23246M))'></sup> persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.<sup class="crossreference" value='(N (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23246N))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">12 </sup>Rejoice and be glad,<sup class="crossreference" value='(O (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23247O))'></sup> because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you."<sup class="crossreference" value='(P (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23247P))'></sup>

Brasso
09-10-2012, 18:08
Good grief!

What part of "Not one jot or tittle" don't you understand?
What part of forever don't you understand?
What part of throughout your generations don't you understand?
What part of perpetual covenant don't you understand?
What part of everlasting don't you understand?


Why do you continue to call God a liar with smug twistings of the Scripture?

That passage does not mention Law. At all. It mentions handwriting of ordinances. Specifically Chirographon trois dogmasin. Unless you are calling the Torah dogma, you are without a foundation for any of your beliefs. You are calling God's commandments the commandments of men, and then saying they done away, contrary to hundreds of other passages, and you have the gall to tell ME to come out of Babylon! Chirographon trois dogmasin means literally "a written list of ordinances". It was specifically used in the same way we would say "what are his charges" in court. It means violations. Sin. There was a chirographon posted above His stake too. It read "King of the Jews". The crime for which He was crucified.

Wake up.

I have a Jewish friend who gets very mad at me for keeping the Feasts. Two Jewish posters on here have scathed me in emails for attempting to keep the feasts and the Sabbath. Should I listen to them, or the body of Messiah?

You pick and choose what you want to believe. You tell me what one jot or tittle means?

When Messiah says not one jot or tittle will pass from the Law and the Prophets (The Torah) until heaven and earth pass away, how do you reconcile that with your beliefs? When He says that anyone who teaches others to break even the smallest of the these commandments will be the least in the Kingdom, does that not mean anything to you? Because that is exactly what you're doing. You should fall on your knees and beg for forgiveness.



Additionally you have Messiah telling us to keep the Passover. Paul telling us specifically to keep Unleavened Bread. We know from Ezekiel that Tabernacles and New Moon Festivals are still being kept in the Millenium. Paul alludes to Trumpets when speaking of the resurrections. The Wedding Supper of the Lamb is another Feast mentioned in the New Testament.

Your beliefs are more full of holes than a burlap sack.

Vic Hays
09-10-2012, 19:38
[/FONT] In other words, since no man is to judge us, who is to judge us? Jesus Christ, the Word of God.
Even the Apostle Paul says, ‘I judge no man.’ Why, because we are all going to come before the judgment seat of God.





So why are you continually judging those who don't keep all the Old Covenant sabbaths and feast days?

Brasso
09-10-2012, 20:05
I'm not judging.

You're saying we shouldn't be keeping them. I'm saying we are. Would you tell me I'm judging people if I told them they shouldn't lie?

All I've ever said is exactly what the Bible says.


I don't want to argue with you. I'm sorry.

I just can't not say the Truth. The Jews (Israel) was told to keep the Torah and Feasts forever. They were told this multiple times. If you believe Jesus is God and that He gave them those commandments, and He told them to keep them forever, then how do you suppose they are to stop just because they believe in Him now? How do you suppose He changed His mind? It's not possible. Scripture cannot be broken. And if there is one new covenant for both Jew and Gentile, then they both keep the same laws. Nowhere does it even hint at two sets of commandments. Two different scales of judgement. If you're grafted into Israel, you have to keep the same commandments. I don't know what else to say.

Vic Hays
09-10-2012, 23:03
I just can't not say the Truth. The Jews (Israel) was told to keep the Torah and Feasts forever. They were told this multiple times. If you believe Jesus is God and that He gave them those commandments, and He told them to keep them forever, then how do you suppose they are to stop just because they believe in Him now? How do you suppose He changed His mind? It's not possible. Scripture cannot be broken. And if there is one new covenant for both Jew and Gentile, then they both keep the same laws. Nowhere does it even hint at two sets of commandments. Two different scales of judgement. If you're grafted into Israel, you have to keep the same commandments. I don't know what else to say.

I think that you are confusing the nation of Israel with the individual believers.

The nation of Israel is gone. The nation that is there now is not the one that God led into the promised land nor is there a temple.

Brasso
09-11-2012, 07:55
No confusion here. I'm speaking of individual believers and of the nation. One and the same.

1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Vic Hays
09-11-2012, 08:49
No confusion here. I'm speaking of individual believers and of the nation. One and the same.

1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

That is exactly my point. They are not "one and the same."

Hebrews 13:10 We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.
13:11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.
13:12 Why Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
13:13 Let us go forth therefore to him without the camp, bearing his reproach.
13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

Galatians 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which engenders to bondage, which is Agar.
4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Brasso
09-11-2012, 09:29
Just because they aren't under the New Covenant doesn't mean they aren't Israel. They are sill in covenant with God. Angels don't ride on the front of tanks and missiles don't mysteriously fly hundreds of miles ove theyr target for pagans. They aren't the body of Messiah, but they are most certainly physcial Israel. Just as Christianity is a spriritual Israel who refuses to become the physcial, they are the physical, refusing to become the spitirual. However, in Messiah, we will eventuall become One New Man. The two sticks will come together again. The two olive trees will become one again.

You confuse "now" (then) with the world to come, which is what the Book of Hebrews is about. Messiah will establish His Kingdom. The New Jerusalem which will come down from God after the Last Great Day, which follows the Millenial Kingdom, both of which you deny.

Heb 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

Anyway, your interpretation of the allegory is wrong.

http://www.wildbranch.org/teachings/lessons/lesson61.html
http://www.wildbranch.org/teachings/lessons/lesson62.html

Schabesbert
09-11-2012, 12:14
<sup class="versenum">13 </sup>By calling this covenant “new,”<sup class="crossreference" value='(W (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30106W))'></sup> he has made the first one obsolete;<sup class="crossreference" value='(X (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30106X))'></sup> and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear."
[/SIZE]
<sup class="crossreference" value='(AZ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29252AZ))'></sup>

Exactly. Glad you're finally coming around, king.

FCoulter
09-11-2012, 13:47
Exactly. Glad you're finally coming around, king.
Come on Bert, I have said all along the sda church is a daughter church of the catholic church.

Vic Hays
09-11-2012, 14:02
Anyway, your interpretation of the allegory is wrong.

http://www.wildbranch.org/teachings/lessons/lesson61.html
http://www.wildbranch.org/teachings/lessons/lesson62.html

It was not necessary to interpret the meaning of the allegory. The Bible interpreted it. I don't think I want to be in bondage. Do you?

Galatians 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Nor do I want to be cast out.

Galatians 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Brasso
09-11-2012, 14:08
God forbid you entertain a perspective that doesn't contradict 75% of the rest of the Bible.

Vic Hays
09-11-2012, 14:15
God forbid you entertain another perspective that doesn't contradict 75% of the rest of the Bible.

Brasso, doesn't the Bible contrast the two Jerusalems? One is in heaven and is free. One is on earth and is in bondage. The children of the one on earth will be cast out.

My choice is to be a child of the Jerusalem in heaven. Jesus is there not in the earthly one.

Kingarthurhk
09-11-2012, 14:59
Exactly. Glad you're finally coming around, king.

I suspect we are talking about two different things. I am referring to the sacrificial system, and so is Paul, I suspect being put aside with the death of Christ. And Paul being a multifaceted as he was was probably also making a reference to Jermiah 31:31-24, "The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant<sup class="crossreference" value='(CN (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-19723CN))'></sup>
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
<sup class="versenum">32 </sup>It will not be like the covenant<sup class="crossreference" value='(CO (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-19724CO))'></sup>
I made with their ancestors<sup class="crossreference" value='(CP (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-19724CP))'></sup>
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,<sup class="crossreference" value='(CQ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-19724CQ))'></sup>
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband<sup class="crossreference" value='(CR (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-19724CR))'></sup> to<sup class="footnote" value='[d (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-19724d)]'>[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah+31&version=NIV#fen-NIV-19724d)]</sup> them,<sup class="footnote" value='[e (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-19724e)]'>[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah+31&version=NIV#fen-NIV-19724e)]</sup>”
declares the Lord.
<sup class="versenum">33 </sup>“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds<sup class="crossreference" value='(CS (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-19725CS))'></sup>
and write it on their hearts.<sup class="crossreference" value='(CT (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-19725CT))'></sup>
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.<sup class="crossreference" value='(CU (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-19725CU))'></sup>
<sup class="versenum">34 </sup>No longer will they teach<sup class="crossreference" value='(CV (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-19726CV))'></sup> their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know<sup class="crossreference" value='(CW (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-19726CW))'></sup> me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive<sup class="crossreference" value='(CX (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-19726CX))'></sup> their wickedness
and will remember their sins<sup class="crossreference" value='(CY (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-19726CY))'></sup> no more.”

FCoulter
09-11-2012, 15:15
I suspect we are talking about two different things. I am referring to the sacrificial system, and so is Paul, I suspect being put aside with the death of Christ. And Paul being a multifaceted as he was was probably also making a reference to Jermiah 31:31-24, "The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant<sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-19723CN&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>CN</a>)"></sup>
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
<sup class="versenum">32 </sup>It will not be like the covenant<sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-19724CO&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>CO</a>)"></sup>
I made with their ancestors<sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-19724CP&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>CP</a>)"></sup>
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,<sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-19724CQ&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>CQ</a>)"></sup>
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband<sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-19724CR&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>CR</a>)"></sup> to<sup class="footnote" value="[<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-19724d&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>d</a>]">[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah+31&version=NIV#fen-NIV-19724d)]</sup> them,<sup class="footnote" value="[<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-19724e&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>e</a>]">[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah+31&version=NIV#fen-NIV-19724e)]</sup>”
declares the Lord.
<sup class="versenum">33 </sup>“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds<sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-19725CS&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>CS</a>)"></sup>
and write it on their hearts.<sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-19725CT&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>CT</a>)"></sup>
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.<sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-19725CU&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>CU</a>)"></sup>
<sup class="versenum">34 </sup>No longer will they teach<sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-19726CV&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>CV</a>)"></sup> their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know<sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-19726CW&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>CW</a>)"></sup> me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive<sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-19726CX&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>CX</a>)"></sup> their wickedness
and will remember their sins<sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-19726CY&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>CY</a>)"></sup> no more.”


King does it embarrass you that everything Bert says goes over your head?

Schabesbert
09-11-2012, 15:26
I suspect we are talking about two different things. I am referring to the sacrificial system, and so is Paul, I suspect being put aside with the death of Christ. And Paul being a multifaceted as he was was probably also making a reference to Jermiah 31:31-24
Well, Paul is right, and so is Jeremiah, but your interpretation is inconsistant with either of those (apologies for the loose paraphrase of Acts 19:15).

The author of Hebrews is clearly not limiting this statement to the sacrificial system, although the sacrificial system is a part of it.

Heb 8:6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry which is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion for a second.
8 For he finds fault with them when he says: "The days will come, says the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; for they did not continue in my covenant, and so I paid no heed to them, says the Lord.
10 This is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
11 And they shall not teach every one his fellow or every one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for all shall know me, from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more."
13 In speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Starting in 8:6, the author expands the scope of the discussion from Christ's ministry in the Temple to the entirety of the Covenant.

ALL of it.

And then, 13 sums it up. The first covenant is obsolete.

Kingarthurhk
09-11-2012, 15:34
Well, Paul is right, and so is Jeremiah, but your interpretation is inconsistant with either of those (apologies for the loose paraphrase of Acts 19:15).

The author of Hebrews is clearly not limiting this statement to the sacrificial system, although the sacrificial system is a part of it.
Heb 8:6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry which is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion for a second.
8 For he finds fault with them when he says: "The days will come, says the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; for they did not continue in my covenant, and so I paid no heed to them, says the Lord.
10 This is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
11 And they shall not teach every one his fellow or every one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for all shall know me, from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more."
13 In speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Starting in 8:6, the author expands the scope of the discussion from Christ's ministry in the Temple to the entirety of the Covenant.

ALL of it.

And then, 13 sums it up. The first covenant is obsolete.

Hebrews is simply a reiteration of Jerimiah 31 where the moral law is written by God on men's hearts. Clearly, he wrote something there. If everything is eliminated, it would render Jerimiah and Hebews to be nonsenical.

Schabesbert
09-11-2012, 15:59
Hebrews is simply a reiteration of Jerimiah 31 where the moral law is written by God on men's hearts. Clearly, he wrote something there.
Nope.

Jeremiah says that this WILL happen in the FUTURE.
Jer 31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah,

Get it? FUTURE tense!

Didn't you ever notice that Christ said that the Chalice was the New Covenant in His Blood? [Luke 22:20]

Brasso
09-11-2012, 17:05
My choice is to be a child of the Jerusalem in heaven. Jesus is there not in the earthly one.

And yet, here you are. On earth.

It's an allegory. Keep it in perspective.

We've gone from whether or not to keep the Feasts to whether we're saved by grace or works. Not even related.

You're right back to tossing the Law even though Messiah said not one jot or tittle would pass till heaven and earth passed.

Certainly you can see that your beliefs contradict Scripture. You have pitted Scripture against itself. And to make things worse, you've decided that you're the one who's right and God is wrong.

Kingarthurhk
09-11-2012, 17:33
Nope.

Jeremiah says that this WILL happen in the FUTURE.
Jer 31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah,

Get it? FUTURE tense!

Didn't you ever notice that Christ said that the Chalice was the New Covenant in His Blood? [Luke 22:20]

There is no mention of a challice.

Jeremiah fortold it:

Hebrews 8:6-7, "Heb 8:6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry which is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises."

Then it shows how Jesus brought that New Covenenant to pass.

Kingarthurhk
09-11-2012, 17:45
Back to feast days:

We are being instructed by the OP we need to keep them. But, is it being kept according to scripture? No, it isn't. Why? Because as Ezra 3 points out, it is directly connected to the sacrificial system.

Ezra 3:4-6. "Then in accordance with what is written, they celebrated the Festival of Tabernacles<sup class="crossreference" value='(I (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-12102I))'></sup> with the required number of burnt offerings prescribed for each day. <sup class="versenum">5 </sup>After that, they presented the regular burnt offerings, the New Moon<sup class="crossreference" value='(J (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-12103J))'></sup> sacrifices and the sacrifices for all the appointed sacred festivals of the Lord,<sup class="crossreference" value='(K (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-12103K))'></sup> as well as those brought as freewill offerings to the Lord. <sup class="versenum">6 </sup>On the first day of the seventh month they began to offer burnt offerings to the Lord, though the foundation of the Lord’s temple had not yet been laid."

Vic Hays
09-11-2012, 21:56
Nope.

Jeremiah says that this WILL happen in the FUTURE.
Jer 31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah,

Get it? FUTURE tense!

Didn't you ever notice that Christ said that the Chalice was the New Covenant in His Blood? [Luke 22:20]

The New Covenant was future in Jeremiah's day. The fulfillment is in the New Testament and it is the same covenant commandments as the moral law just different media .

II Corinthians 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not on tables of stone, but on fleshly tables of the heart.

FCoulter
09-12-2012, 04:46
Back to feast days:

We are being instructed by the OP we need to keep them. But, is it being kept according to scripture? No, it isn't. Why? Because as Ezra 3 points out, it is directly connected to the sacrificial system.

Ezra 3:4-6. "Then in accordance with what is written, they celebrated the Festival of Tabernacles<sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-12102I&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>I</a>)"></sup> with the required number of burnt offerings prescribed for each day. <sup class="versenum">5 </sup>After that, they presented the regular burnt offerings, the New Moon<sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-12103J&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>J</a>)"></sup> sacrifices and the sacrifices for all the appointed sacred festivals of the Lord,<sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-12103K&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>K</a>)"></sup> as well as those brought as freewill offerings to the Lord. <sup class="versenum">6 </sup>On the first day of the seventh month they began to offer burnt offerings to the Lord, though the foundation of the Lord’s temple had not yet been laid."Brother by that reasoning you should not be keeping the weekly Sabbath either since sacrifices were to be given on it as well.. Boy, you need to read the Bible more.

Vic Hays
09-12-2012, 07:33
Brother by that reasoning you should not be keeping the weekly Sabbath either since sacrifices were to be given on it as well.. Boy, you need to read the Bible more.

Actually we do offer sacrifices on the weekly Sabbath as it has been outlined in the Bible.

Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.

Psalm 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.

Schabesbert
09-12-2012, 08:13
There is no mention of a challice.
Sorry, but you're wrong again.

poterion

When St. Jerome translated the New Testament from Greek to the Latin vulgate, he chose the Latin term calix (from which “chalice” is derived) to translate poterion.

Jeremiah fortold it:
Yes, that's what I said.
Then it shows how Jesus brought that New Covenenant to pass.
Yes, that's what I said.

I'm glad you agree with me that the Old Covenant is obsolete. Finally.

Schabesbert
09-12-2012, 08:19
The New Covenant was future in Jeremiah's day. The fulfillment is in the New Testament and it is the same covenant commandments as the moral law just different media .

II Corinthians 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not on tables of stone, but on fleshly tables of the heart.
YES!
Note now St. Paul is talking about even the "tables of stone" as the archaic translation you insist on using puts it.

ALL of the OT is obsolete.
Are the rules contained therein obsolete? Yes and no.

Our Consitiution superceeded the Articles of Confederation, which themselves drew heavily on things such as the Magna Carta, the Mayflower compact, and the Virginia Declaration of Rights.

While we can refer to these elder documents to help explain what the authors of the Constitution had in mind, we are not bound by them. If we are bound by something in the Constitution that reflects a principle, or even s copied verbatum from a prior document, we are bound not because we are bound to the elder document but because it is in the Constitution.

So, we follow the Law of Christ. Yes, His Law has much of the OT Law in it (actually, in its original INTENT, what God wanted people to get from it, and even magnifies our responsibilities in many ways).

Vic Hays
09-12-2012, 12:57
So, we follow the Law of Christ. Yes, His Law has much of the OT Law in it (actually, in its original INTENT, what God wanted people to get from it, and even magnifies our responsibilities in many ways).

I understand that the Catholic church believes that they have a right and authority to modify God's law like changing the day for God's Sabbath and worshipping images and adding in Mary intercession etc.

Using the Bible as the standard of faith does not allow that.

FCoulter
09-12-2012, 13:52
I understand that the Catholic church believes that they have a right and authority to modify God's law like changing the day for God's Sabbath and worshipping images and adding in Mary intercession etc.

Using the Bible as the standard of faith does not allow that.
Seriously you are aCcusing the catholic church of modifiying Gods laws, and yet you butcher His laws and pick and choose which ones to keep?

Boy,that is rich!

rgregoryb
09-12-2012, 14:36
and lest we forget:
In one of the comments following a blog post below there was a comment about Armstrongisms' crazier splinter cult leader, Fred Coulter. This is the dude that spent several years as a phrenologist where he ran his hands over peoples heads to feel the bumps and then diagnosed what was wrong with them. Fred then seemed to think he was soooooooooooooo enlightened that he need to improve the Bible and then set out to print his own Bible that a few people on the lunatic fringe of Armstrongism actually use.

Thanks to Mish-Mash for the tip about Fred's letter to his church members in December of 2011 where he talks about transhuman's that will soon be running around the earth prior to the tribulation


http://click.infospace.com/ClickHandler.ashx?du=http%3a%2f%2farmstrongismlibrary.blogspot.com%2f2012%2f03%2ffred-coulter-transhumans-to-rule-earth.html&ru=http%3a%2f%2farmstrongismlibrary.blogspot.com%2f2012%2f03%2ffred-coulter-transhumans-to-rule-earth.html&ld=20120912&ap=2&app=1&c=facemoods.v2.us.1.home&s=facemoodsv2&coi=239137&cop=main-title&euip=173.186.154.176&npp=2&p=0&pp=0&pvaid=82374a271b2c46458f9340339f7f3195&ep=2&mid=9&hash=723227812309C260467779E8638BF1E0

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-EI3qy9SO7IA/T1aOnVP3vhI/AAAAAAAAD2I/eZuMrCTZuUE/s200/laserbaby.jpg

.......and you are supposed to be taken as a rational thinker? And you think EW was off her meds?

FCoulter
09-12-2012, 15:22
and lest we forget:
In one of the comments following a blog post below there was a comment about Armstrongisms' crazier splinter cult leader, Fred Coulter. This is the dude that spent several years as a phrenologist where he ran his hands over peoples heads to feel the bumps and then diagnosed what was wrong with them. Fred then seemed to think he was soooooooooooooo enlightened that he need to improve the Bible and then set out to print his own Bible that a few people on the lunatic fringe of Armstrongism actually use.

Thanks to Mish-Mash for the tip about Fred's letter to his church members in December of 2011 where he talks about transhuman's that will soon be running around the earth prior to the tribulation


http://click.infospace.com/ClickHandler.ashx?du=http%3a%2f%2farmstrongismlibrary.blogspot.com%2f2012%2f03%2ffred-coulter-transhumans-to-rule-earth.html&ru=http%3a%2f%2farmstrongismlibrary.blogspot.com%2f2012%2f03%2ffred-coulter-transhumans-to-rule-earth.html&ld=20120912&ap=2&app=1&c=facemoods.v2.us.1.home&s=facemoodsv2&coi=239137&cop=main-title&euip=173.186.154.176&npp=2&p=0&pp=0&pvaid=82374a271b2c46458f9340339f7f3195&ep=2&mid=9&hash=723227812309C260467779E8638BF1E0

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-EI3qy9SO7IA/T1aOnVP3vhI/AAAAAAAAD2I/eZuMrCTZuUE/s200/laserbaby.jpg

.......and you are supposed to be taken as a rational thinker? And you think EW was off her meds?
Do you have anything worth bringing to he table? As usual what you state is false and twisted,but thats ok. I follow Jesus Christ not a man or woman.I go to The Church of God, We meet in homes, so guess what I am non denominational.

So I must ask, can you say the same?
Also if you would like to stay on the original topic that would be great.

rgregoryb
09-12-2012, 15:53
Do you have anything worth bringing to he table? As usual what you state is false and twisted,but thats ok. I follow Jesus Christ not a man or woman.I go to The Church of God, We meet in homes, so guess what I am non denominational.

So I must ask, can you say the same?
Also if you would like to stay on the original topic that would be great.

you question Vic and his EW followings in every thread, but someone reminds the "crowd" that you are about 2 steps short of the second floor and you become irritated. GREAT...just what I hoped for, you are a charlatan parading as a knowledgeable scholar trying to "out kook" HWA and his old cult.

GTRI should be named "cult wars" and who is the weirdest. Your trickery and deceit has tainted anything you would ever say. You follow no one but yourself.

TRANSHUMANS........:rofl::rofl::rofl:, what else you got there in that swirling mush you call a mind?

FCoulter
09-12-2012, 16:05
you question Vic and his EW followings in every thread, but someone reminds the "crowd" that you are about 2 steps short of the second floor and you become irritated. GREAT...just what I hoped for, you are a charlatan parading as a knowledgeable scholar trying to "out kook" HWA and his old cult.

GTRI should be named "cult wars" and who is the weirdest. Your trickery and deceit has tainted anything you would ever say. You follow no one but yourself.

TRANSHUMANS........:rofl::rofl::rofl:, what else you got there in that swirling mush you call a mind?
You are disturbed, however I will explain a couple of thing to you. King and vic took a vow to the sda church. They will not stray from their teachings.

I do however, follow the church of God (Jesus Church)not Fred Coulter, HWA, or anyone else. I post material and teachings from multi, church groups, I use the kjv of the Bible on here. If I was whom you claim I claim to be I would not use the kjv Bible.


I have never claimed to be or follow "Fred" you assume wrong as usual.


My nick is F not Fred on here.


Now if you think you upset me, think again I over look people who are mentally challenged, thankfully God has blessed me in this area.

NMG26
09-12-2012, 16:22
GTRI should be named "cult wars" and who is the weirdest.


Fran does not she is part of the cult. That is the sneaking thing about some cults. They think they are the only ones that have the truth.



.

rgregoryb
09-12-2012, 19:11
You are disturbed, however I will explain a couple of thing to you. King and vic took a vow to the sda church. They will not stray from their teachings.

I do however, follow the church of God (Jesus Church)not Fred Coulter, HWA, or anyone else. I post material and teachings from multi, church groups, I use the kjv of the Bible on here. If I was whom you claim I claim to be I would not use the kjv Bible.


I have never claimed to be or follow "Fred" you assume wrong as usual.


My nick is F not Fred on here.


Now if you think you upset me, think again I over look people who are mentally challenged, thankfully God has blessed me in this area.

so, you are not Fred..yet your avatar is of fred's "church???" and you use FCoulter as your moniker and you are not a fred follower?

And I am the one disturbed?

Are you fred's stalker? impersonator? associate?

No matter, you are a piss poor example of christianity (or what you conceive it to be)

rgregoryb
09-12-2012, 19:14
Fran does not she is part of the cult. That is the sneaking thing about some cults. They think they are the only ones that have the truth.



.

Can I get an AMEN, fran thinks the truth has been whispered in his ear only, and those disturbed enough to listen to his vile ideas. As we say in the south, "he wouldn't know the truth if it bit him in the ***"

Vic Hays
09-12-2012, 22:18
Seriously you are aCcusing the catholic church of modifiying Gods laws, and yet you butcher His laws and pick and choose which ones to keep?

Boy,that is rich!

When I say God's law I am referring as Jesus did to the Ten Commandments which is the moral law and the covenant law.

Brasso
09-13-2012, 06:46
When I say God's law I am referring as Jesus did to the Ten Commandments which is the moral law and the covenant law.


We'll forget that He said not one jot or tittle of the Torah would pass away,
We'll forget that He is the one who gave Israel the Torah and told them if was forever.
We'll forget that He is the Torah made flesh.
We'll forget that alll the Torah including sacriices will be kept during the Millenium and will go forth from Tsion.
We'll forget that when He said repent, the only thing to repent to was the Torah.
We'll forget that the only Scriptures in existence at that time was the Torah.
We'll forget that that everything He or the Apostles taught came from the Torah.
We'll forget that Paul commended the Thesalonians for proving his words concerning the Gospel by checking it agains the Torah.
Well forget that Isaiah said if a man does not speak according to both the Torah and Testimony that they have no light in them.
We'll forget that Kingd David said the Torah will restore the soul.
We'll forget that YHWH never changes.
We'll forget that every Word of the Torah is true and tried 7 times
We'll forget that Messiah Yeshua is the same yesterday, today, and forever
We'll ignore the fact you are essentially saying that what He taught before His death is different that what He taught after He died.
We'll forget 75% of the Bible....

...and pretend that none of it exists. We'll simply ask the question, "Where does Jesus ever say the Law is the 10 Commandments"?

rgregoryb
09-13-2012, 07:34
evidence for an imaginary friend provided by a mythical collection of writings....

Vic Hays
09-13-2012, 08:22
"Where does Jesus ever say the Law is the 10 Commandments"?

When the rich young man asked which commandments Jesus should have said all of the law of Moses. Jesus did not. He quoted from the Ten Commandments.

Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Vic Hays
09-13-2012, 08:31
...and pretend that none of it exists. We'll simply ask the question, "Where does Jesus ever say the Law is the 10 Commandments"?

So you couldn't answer that there were two Jerusalems and that the Gentile believers were not required to keep the law of Moses so you change the subject?

Why do you want the Gentiles to live as Jews? The Galatians were all Gentiles.

Galatians 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, If you, being a Jew, live after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compel you the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Brasso
09-13-2012, 09:33
So you couldn't answer that there were two Jerusalems and that the Gentile believers were not required to keep the law of Moses so you change the subject?

I didn't change the subject. You simply ignored what I had to say about it so I moved on.

Your logic is double minded. You pick and choose which commandments you want to follow and then pick and choose which passages of Scripture you want to believe in to support those commandments. And ignore anything and everything else that contradicts it. Double minded.

For instance the Galatians passage you posted above. You have no idea what it says. You have simply transferred what you want it to say onto it, ignoring that it contradicts other passages.

It goes right along with your faulty interpretation of the two Jerusalems. You refuse to read any other perspective because you assume you already know everything there is to know about it. In fact, the analogy of the 2 Jerusalems and that Galatians passage are actually about the same thing. It's just that it's the exact opposite of you think it means.

They are both about faith and works. Torah and Testimony. They are both about how they go hand in hand. Like a typical Christian, you say, "Look how the Jews only do works with no faith". So you promptly drop all the works and think all you need is faith. And instead of falling into the ditch on the left side of the road, you have fallen into the ditch on the right side of the road.

Vic Hays
09-13-2012, 11:02
They are both about faith and works. Torah and Testimony. They are both about how they go hand in hand. Like a typical Christian, you say, "Look how the Jews only do works with no faith". So you promptly drop all the works and think all you need is faith. And instead of falling into the ditch on the left side of the road, you have fallen into the ditch on the right side of the road.

No, I have never said Jews have works with no faith. What I have been tryng to communicate with you is that te law of Moses is not required for the Gentiles.

You seem to be finding meanings that suit what you want to believe.

The Bible says about the two Jerusalems that one represents bondage and the other freedom. I choose freedom from that yoke of bondage as Paul calls it.

Brasso
09-13-2012, 11:40
The Bible says about the two Jerusalems that one represents bondage and the other freedom. I choose freedom from that yoke of bondage as Paul calls it.


And your analogy is wrong. Paul did not say what you think he said. This is what I tried to point out, but you are ignoring it. Paul does not call the Torah bondage. Ever. Never. Not even once. YOU do not understand what he wrote. And since you refuse to even entertain the idea that you might be wrong and read another perspective, I have moved on to other examples.

Works without faith is what is bondage because works can't save you. It's that simple. Faith without works is dead.

Faith first. Then Works = The Righteous Living by Faith

The Torah is NOT bondage. Keeping it and other man made traditions in the belief you can earn your salvation is bondage. You will remain in bondage to sin and death. Building a relationship on faith, and then living it out with righteous works is called being HOLY. Neither faith nor works can survive alone. And only obeying some commandments is a lack of faith. You either believe that man lives by EVERY word that comes from the mouth of YHWH, or you don't.

FCoulter
09-13-2012, 11:47
When the rich young man asked which commandments Jesus should have said all of the law of Moses. Jesus did not. He quoted from the Ten Commandments.

Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
Why do you keep the Sabbath, Jesus never mentioned it?

Vic Hays
09-13-2012, 13:56
Why do you keep the Sabbath, Jesus never mentioned it?


Maybe you should have a look at the Bible.

Doesn't it embarrass you to make such silly statements.

How about, "the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath day".

Vic Hays
09-13-2012, 14:11
The Torah is NOT bondage.

That is true. The Torah is not bondage. Being required to keep the Torah is bondage.

The Galatians were Gentiles. Paul cautioned them against being circumcised because they would then be required to keep the whole law.

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty with which Christ has made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
5:2 Behold, I Paul say to you, that if you be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Acts
15:10 Now therefore why tempt you God, to put a yoke on the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

15:20 But that we write to them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
15:21 For Moses of old time has in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day

Kingarthurhk
09-13-2012, 15:15
Fran does not she is part of the cult. That is the sneaking thing about some cults. They think they are the only ones that have the truth.



.

Did you just say, "She"?

FCoulter
09-13-2012, 15:46
Maybe you should have a look at the Bible.

Doesn't it embarrass you to make such silly statements.

How about, "the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath day".
Vic, I was referring to matt. 19. The Sabbath wasnt mntioned there. Are you actually as simple as you act most of th time?


I dont mean that to be rude,but a 2nd grader can put 2+2 together. Yet you stumble on the most simple of things.


Also This is a serious question. Are you and king related?

Vic Hays
09-13-2012, 16:24
Vic, I was referring to matt. 19. The Sabbath wasnt mntioned there. Are you actually as simple as you act most of th time?


I dont mean that to be rude,but a 2nd grader can put 2+2 together. Yet you stumble on the most simple of things.


Also This is a serious question. Are you and king related?

I am not related to king. I only know him on this forum.

If you want me to understand you then you need to get past first grade English.

When you said,' Why do you keep the Sabbath, Jesus never mentioned it?" Why wasn't I to take that at face value. You are in denial of much more than what Jesus said about the Sabbath.

Refering to Matthew 19 Jesus said those few of the Ten Commandments which referred to loving man. The other part was what referred to loving God and the rich young ruler was too much in love with his wealth to really follow the first four commandments.

Brasso
09-13-2012, 16:52
The Galatians were Gentiles. Paul cautioned them against being circumcised because they would then be required to keep the whole law.

Context.

They were getting circumcised because they were told it was necessary for their salvation. Meaning they thought they had to earn their salvation. This is the entire philosophy Paul is warning against. It's the focal point of almost all of his letters. Faith and grace do not come by works. It's the other way around. First faith, then works. You are actually supporting the very view he's trying to stamp out. The only difference is that you have decided to do no works whatsoever. You think you can show your faith by your faith.

Vic Hays
09-13-2012, 21:42
Context.

They were getting circumcised because they were told it was necessary for their salvation. Meaning they thought they had to earn their salvation. This is the entire philosophy Paul is warning against. It's the focal point of almost all of his letters. Faith and grace do not come by works. It's the other way around. First faith, then works. You are actually supporting the very view he's trying to stamp out. The only difference is that you have decided to do no works whatsoever. You think you can show your faith by your faith.


Are you intentionally leaving out the context?


Paul says"if you are circumcised. ChrIst will profit you nothing."
Then he says if you are circumcised you are required to keep the whole law.

It sounds to me like it would be better to remain free of that yoke of bondage by remaining uncircumcised.

Brasso
09-14-2012, 13:09
Are you intentionally leaving out the context?


Paul says"if you are circumcised. ChrIst will profit you nothing."
Then he says if you are circumcised you are required to keep the whole law.

It sounds to me like it would be better to remain free of that yoke of bondage by remaining uncircumcised.

I really hope He opens your heart some day to receive the Truth. Context is what you have thrown into the trashbin. You have no context at all.

Why did Paul circumcise Timothy? Was He trying to send him to hell?

You REALLY need to understand what your saying before you say it. I can't stress this enough. YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

\

Glock36shooter
09-14-2012, 13:16
Why don't you guys just make out and get it over with? :rofl:

Vic Hays
09-14-2012, 14:40
Why did Paul circumcise Timothy? Was He trying to send him to hell?

You REALLY need to understand what your saying before you say it. I can't stress this enough. YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

\

Did you check the Bible to find out why Paul circumcised Timothy?

Until you do and stop jumping to wild conclusions you will never figure things out.

Could it possibly be that Timothy could not minister with Paul to the Jews as an uncircumcised heathen?

There is no mention of circumcision being necessary for the Gentiles. In fact Paul speaks against the practice in more than one place.

Brasso
09-14-2012, 15:19
And it's ALWAYS in the context of the pharisees telling people it's necessary to be circumcised before they can be saved by Messiah.

I'm through. You could give a dam about context.

Schabesbert
09-14-2012, 15:54
Did you check the Bible to find out why Paul circumcised Timothy?

Until you do and stop jumping to wild conclusions you will never figure things out.

Could it possibly be that Timothy could not minister with Paul to the Jews as an uncircumcised heathen?

There is no mention of circumcision being necessary for the Gentiles. In fact Paul speaks against the practice in more than one place.


Vic, I have to say, you're making a whole lot of sense in this thread.

Which is perhaps why Brasso was scared off.
Sense is to Brasso what Garlic is to Vampires. :wavey:

Glock36shooter
09-15-2012, 14:29
Lot of talk about men's genitals in here. It's a little funny that religious men can be more fixated on that topic than some of Homosexual Men they claim to be such aberrant heathens. LOL.

IhRedrider
09-16-2012, 20:20
Why do you join into conversations about things you profess don't exist?

Brasso
09-21-2012, 11:46
Could it possibly be that Timothy could not minister with Paul to the Jews as an uncircumcised heathen?

Could it be that you're as clueless as Bert about these things?

So you're saying that circumcising Timothy didn't dam him to hell or make Christ worthless, because of the reason it was done?

What's that? Did you say yes? Golly Gee, we finally agree.

http://passionfortruth.com/articleEntry.aspx?parentnavigationid=18867&viewarticleGuid=f12e8db2-020d-4144-a079-34c83e8876fb

Kingarthurhk
09-21-2012, 18:27
Could it be that you're as clueless as Bert about these things?

So you're saying that circumcising Timothy didn't dam him to hell or make Christ worthless, because of the reason it was done?

What's that? Did you say yes? Golly Gee, we finally agree.

http://passionfortruth.com/articleEntry.aspx?parentnavigationid=18867&viewarticleGuid=f12e8db2-020d-4144-a079-34c83e8876fb

Circumcision of the flesh means nothing, other than you aren't subject to fromunda cheese. It does not endear you to God more, nor does it guarante salvation. It does, however, mean you are less likely to get an infected or smelly pecker.

FCoulter
09-22-2012, 05:53
Circumcision of the flesh means nothing, other than you aren't subject to fromunda cheese. It does not endear you to God more, nor does it guarante salvation. It does, however, mean you are less likely to get an infected or smelly pecker.
Why do you even respond to threads? Is it part of your rehab?

Kingarthurhk
09-22-2012, 06:03
Why do you even respond to threads? Is it part of your rehab?

Just being honest. The only benefits of circumcision are it is easier to keep it clean. Othere than that, there are none.

Brasso
09-26-2012, 07:50
Speaking of the Millenial Reign:

Eze 44:9 Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel.

So like it or not, you will be curcumcised at some point. Sorry.

Just like the unbelieving Israelites who wandered the desert for 40 years didn't circumcise their children. Joshua (Yeshua) had to do it before they crossed the Jordan. The Land holds a higher spiritual significance than the diaspora (which we are in now).

So, you can obey the commandment, or He'll do it for you.

Has nothing to do with salvation. Buy like any other commandment, He certainly appreciates our obedience. I realize that the idea of obeying Him flies in the face of normal Christian doctrine, but that's not God's fault.

Vic Hays
09-26-2012, 08:05
Speaking of the Millenial Reign:

Eze 44:9 Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel.

Has nothing to do with salvation. Buy like any other commandment, He certainly appreciates our obedience. I realize that the idea of obeying Him flies in the face of normal Christian doctrine, but that's not God's fault.

Is this really talking about the Millenium or is it talking about the past nation of Israel?

The Holy Spirit had no trouble with entering the hearts of the uncircumcised in Acts Chapter 10.

Brasso
09-26-2012, 14:30
Is this really talking about the Millenium or is it talking about the past nation of Israel?

The Millenium

The Holy Spirit had no trouble with entering the hearts of the uncircumcised in Acts Chapter 10.


No, it didn't. Have I said it did? Abraham was given circumcision AFTER he believed as a sign of his covenant. People are baptized AFTER they believe. It's still a work. Does that invalidate it? CONTEXT!

The entire argument in Acts is about WHY they are doing it.

Vic Hays
09-27-2012, 07:12
No, it didn't. Have I said it did? Abraham was given circumcision AFTER he believed as a sign of his covenant. People are baptized AFTER they believe. It's still a work. Does that invalidate it? CONTEXT!

The entire argument in Acts is about WHY they are doing it.

So you understand that baptism took the place of circumcision?

Baptism is a public confession of faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus. Circumcision does not profess the fullness of the Christian faith.

FCoulter
09-27-2012, 08:44
So you understand that baptism took the place of circumcision?

Baptism is a public confession of faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus. Circumcision does not profess the fullness of the Christian faith.
Are taking vows and oaths to a denomination part of this ritual also?

Brasso
09-27-2012, 08:48
So you understand that baptism took the place of circumcision?

No, I do not.

Circumcision was never supposed to be some kind of entry into the covenant. That's what the Pharisees of the day had done with it, including obedience to a long list of man made commandments. Circumcision was supposed to be done before one could partake of the Passover. It was a physcial sign of an already circumcised heart. In that respect it is superceed by Baptism, in that a circumcised heart is all that's required for salvation and for the Passover. Baptism, also a work, is also a sign of a circumcised heart, but it doesn't replace circumcision. It is the weightier commandment though. No one should be forced to be circumcised in order to be saved, just as the Jerusalem Council decided. But, as they also decided, they would learn Moses in the Synogogues on the Sabbath day. And as they learned more of the commandments they would naturally incorporate them into their lives. This is in line with Paul circumcising Timothy. He was ready to obey the commandment. It had nothing to do with ministering to Jews. Paul could have taken any number of already circumcised Jewish believers to do that. The reason he didn't circumcise Titus was because of the circumcision party pressuring the new believers to get circumcised for salvation, and Paul was making a statement to counter that argument. Not that circumcison was done away. This is recorded in the historical record. The 1st century body practiced circumcison. Especially for new borns.

Baptism is a public confession of faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus. Circumcision does not profess the fullness of the Christian faith.

There is no Christian faith. That's the lie.

There is just the one faith. One new man. One Israel. One Torah. One God. One Saviour. One The same from the beginning.

Not two.

Schabesbert
09-27-2012, 09:09
No, I do not.

Circumcision was never supposed to be some kind of entry into the covenant. That's what the Pharisees of the day had done with it, including obedience to a long list of man made commandments. Circumcision was supposed to be done before one could partake of the Passover. It was a physcial sign of an already circumcised heart.
Seriously? How does this apply to an 8-day old child?

Vic Hays
09-27-2012, 11:13
No, I do not.

Circumcision was never supposed to be some kind of entry into the covenant.


There is no Christian faith. That's the lie.

There is just the one faith. One new man. One Israel. One Torah. One God. One Saviour. One The same from the beginning.

Not two.

Where do you get this stuff? Certainly not from the Bible.

Genesis 17: 10-11 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised and ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

The Bible records this as a token. The token of faith for the New Testament is Baptism.

Brasso
09-27-2012, 11:42
Yes, a token of the covenant. Given after he was counted as righteous because of his faith. Not before.

And the Jew. Does circumcison stop for them just because they believe in Messiah? NO. Neither does it stop for any stranger that wishes to join Israel.

It was the pharisees attempting to circumcise in order to be saved. Not as a result of being saved.

Context.

Brasso
09-27-2012, 11:43
Seriously? How does this apply to an 8-day old child?


It doesn't. Not in that context.

But the commandment to circumcise an 8 day old male infant is still a commandment.

Brasso
09-27-2012, 11:45
You just love to pick and choose and then come up reasons, illogical as they are, to justify yoiurselves.

You argue till you're blue in the face that we're not saved by works, yet you'll argue just as hard that we should be baptized, which is a work.

Wow. Just follow the commandments. It's easier.

Schabesbert
09-27-2012, 14:16
Yes, a token of the covenant. Given after he was counted as righteous because of his faith. Not before.
How much faith does an 8-day old baby need to have to be counted as righteous?

Schabesbert
09-27-2012, 14:20
You just love to pick and choose and then come up reasons, illogical as they are, to justify yoiurselves.

You argue till you're blue in the face that we're not saved by works, yet you'll argue just as hard that we should be baptized, which is a work.

We argue that scripture is right.
Of course baptism is a work. Of course we're saved by faith AND works, just as scripture says.

But, again as scripture says, we're not saved by the OT "works of the law" (ergo nomos, as stated by st. Paul). Of course, St. Paul expended much of his energy preaching and even railing against those who teach what you do.

Wow. Just follow the commandments. It's easier.
Whose? Yours? No, thanks.

Brasso
09-27-2012, 15:06
But, again as scripture says, we're not saved by the OT "works of the law" (ergo nomos, as stated by st. Paul). Of course, St. Paul expended much of his energy preaching and even railing against those who teach what you do.

First of all, many Qumran scrolls as well as other text equate "works of the law" with rabbinic tradition. In other words, the Oral Law. Not the Torah.

Secondly, we're not saved by any works. This is what I've been saying. But this doesn't do away with works as a fruit of our faith, which is what christianity attempts to do. And it's just as much wrong today as then.

Brasso
09-27-2012, 15:08
How much faith does an 8-day old baby need to have to be counted as righteous?

Do you have an argument with God? Take it up with Him.

Schabesbert
09-27-2012, 15:13
Secondly, we're not saved by any works. This is what I've been saying.
Oh, I know it's what YOU have been saying, but my point is that YOU are constantly, frequently, and freely contradicting what SCRIPTURE says:

Jas 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Between your words, and those of St. James, I'll listen to St. James.

Schabesbert
09-27-2012, 15:14
Do you have an argument with God? Take it up with Him.
Nope, that's my point.
What YOU are saying is in conflict with INSPIRED scripture.

So, no, I don't need to take it up with God, just with you.
And, no, you are not Him.

Ge 17:12 He that is eight days old among you shall be circumcised; every male throughout your generations, whether born in your house, or bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring,
13 both he that is born in your house and he that is bought with your money, shall be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant.

Abraham was circumcised as an adult because he WAS an adult at the time God gave the command.

That's the same deal as adult baptisms in the NT: they were adults, and couldn't become infants again, so they had to be baptized AS adults.

But the normative way for both circumcision and baptism is for infants to be baptized/circumcised.

Roering
09-27-2012, 16:06
Personally I love the feast days. Especially with Christmas right around the corner. :wavey:

FCoulter
09-27-2012, 17:31
Personally I love the feast days. Especially with Christmas right around the corner. :wavey:
You mean pagan feasts days huh? Lol

Brasso
09-27-2012, 21:27
Jas 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Between your words, and those of St. James, I'll listen to St. James.

You're problem is definitions. When I say we aren't saved by works, I'm using the Christian definition of saved, not the Biblical one. We can't do anything to earn what He did for us on that tree. ie the Christian definition of saved. What we can do is obey Him, till we die. The Biblical definition of saved.

I'm not contradicting you.

Nope, that's my point.
What YOU are saying is in conflict with INSPIRED scripture.

Really? Let's see...

Gen 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

Seems you're interpretation of inspired Scripture is at odds with inspired Scripture. Again.

Schabesbert
09-28-2012, 08:40
You're problem is definitions. When I say we aren't saved by works, I'm using the Christian definition of saved, not the Biblical one. We can't do anything to earn what He did for us on that tree. ie the Christian definition of saved. What we can do is obey Him, till we die. The Biblical definition of saved.
I agree with most of what you've written here.
We can't do anything to earn our salvation. God doesn't owe us a thing. All our good works are done through Him.

I'm not contradicting you.
Not here you're not.

But you didn't address the points I made, where you ARE contradicting scripture.



Really? Let's see...

Gen 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
Exactly.
And yet, St. Paul is pretty darned adament that we don't need to be circumcised. Why? We don't need to be part of the OLD Covenant. Rather, we should strive to be in Jesus, and to be part of the NEW Covenant. As Jerimiah predicted.

Seems you're interpretation of inspired Scripture is at odds with inspired Scripture. Again.
St. Paul faced off against your kind again and again.
Know what? He prevailed, because he had the Holy Spirit on his side.

Brasso
09-28-2012, 09:25
And yet he circimcised Timothy.

History records that the first century body continued to circumcise.

The Bible tells us we will all be circumcised.

God tell's Abraham it's an eternal covenant.


Someone's interpretation is wrong.

Vic Hays
09-28-2012, 10:48
And yet he circimcised Timothy.

History records that the first century body continued to circumcise.

The Bible tells us we will all be circumcised.

God tell's Abraham it's an eternal covenant.


Someone's interpretation is wrong.

The scriptures do not lie. You are interpreting according to suppositions rather than reading the plain Word.

Timothy was mentoring under Paul. They were ministering to Jews. It was necessary for Timothy to be circumcised to be able to minister to circumcised Jews.

This is the one exception that you seize upon to bolster your opinion. Find another one in the New Testament and you might have some credibility.

Paul plainly says that if you are uncircumcised not to seek to become circumcised and if you are circumcised not to seek to become uncircumcised, I Corinthians 7:18

Brasso
09-28-2012, 11:06
Timothy was mentoring under Paul. They were ministering to Jews. It was necessary for Timothy to be circumcised to be able to minister to circumcised Jews.

Bull Hockey!

He could have taken any number of believing, circumcised Jews, with him instead of Timothy.

He doesn't circumcise Titus, and the reason given is not to give in to the circumcision party (who were teaching it was necessary, as a first step, to be saved). They were teaching that it was mandatory before one could even claim belief in Yeshua !!!!! Never once is it ever stated because circumcision is no done away with.

In fact, when he first arrives in Jerusalem in Acts Peter has him offer sacrices at the temple to prove he's not teaching against circumcision.

Act 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
Act 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. Act 21:22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.
Act 21:23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
Act 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

The commandment was given for ever, as an eternmal commandment.

You are the one twisting Pauls words to your own destruction because YOU are unlearned about the subject. The context. And the history.

And because of whatever twisted reason your pastor has told you, you continue to call God a liar.

Gen 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

Schabesbert
09-28-2012, 11:52
Bull Hockey!

He could have taken any number of believing, circumcised Jews, with him instead of Timothy.
Or, he trusted Timothy and thought that Timothy would be a good bishop.

He doesn't circumcise Titus, and the reason given is not to give in to the circumcision party (who were teaching it was necessary, as a first step, to be saved). They were teaching that it was mandatory before one could even claim belief in Yeshua !!!!! Never once is it ever stated because circumcision is no done away with.
And yet, as you admit, he doesn't circumcise Titus. Don't you see how that fact alone shows your argument to be wrong?


In fact, when he first arrives in Jerusalem in Acts Peter has him offer sacrices at the temple to prove he's not teaching against circumcision.
You've got this half-right, which is about 50% better than your average.

To the extent that you did get it right, Paul explains why he did such a thing:

1Co 9:20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews; to those under the law I became as one under the law--though not being myself under the law--that I might win those under the law.

Note that he says that he himself is NOT UNDER THE LAW, but that he acted that way so as to win over the Jews.


The commandment was given for ever, as an eternmal commandment.
Yeah, that confused many of the Jews, too. It seems to be one of the things that Paul himself struggled with as he was encouraging the killing of Christians.

Paul explains it this way:

Ro 7:1 Do you not know, brethren--for I am speaking to those who know the law--that the law is binding on a person only during his life?
2 Thus a married woman is bound by law to her husband as long as he lives; but if her husband dies she is discharged from the law concerning the husband.
3 Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress.
4 Likewise, my brethren, you have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead in order that we may bear fruit for God.
5 While we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.
6 But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit.

I know you don't like it, but Paul's explicitely saying that you're wrong.

You are the one twisting Pauls words to your own destruction because YOU are unlearned about the subject. The context. And the history.
Well, nanny-nanny-bo-bo to you, too. :crying:
You're pretty entertaining, in that since you have no legitimate argument, you always resort to lying and name-calling. You're fun. :wavey:

Brasso
09-28-2012, 12:33
Nothing you just posted is Scriptural. In context. Or any other semblence of correct.'

I'm tired of arguing with people who insist on calling God a liar.

When you can refute the plain and simple commandment that is forever, everlasting, throughout your generations, as a pertual covenant, then we can talk. Until then, let God be true and every man a liar. Including the Pope.

Schabesbert
09-28-2012, 12:55
Nothing you just posted is Scriptural. In context. Or any other semblence of correct.'
OK, so scripture isn't scriptural. Got it. :faint:

I'm tired of arguing with people who insist on calling God a liar.

When you can refute the plain and simple commandment that is forever, everlasting, throughout your generations, as a pertual covenant, then we can talk. Until then, let God be true and every man a liar. Including the Pope.
Ahhh, I understand. You don't have any hope of actually rebutting with facts, so you're going to stomp your feet.




Again.
:wavey:

FCoulter
10-01-2012, 04:46
Well I am loving the first day of the Feast of Tabernacles, I had a change of plans and We are celebrating in Gettysburg.

Don't worry how I keep The Feast king, I keep it as God wants and if you are gonna ignore God and His commands to keep His Days then don't judge or try to explain how to keep them.

Roering
10-01-2012, 15:33
You mean pagan feasts days huh? Lol

Nope, just those regarding Christ and His Church.

Kingarthurhk
10-01-2012, 15:40
Well I am loving the first day of the Feast of Tabernacles, I had a change of plans and We are celebrating in Gettysburg.

Don't worry how I keep The Feast king, I keep it as God wants and if you are gonna ignore God and His commands to keep His Days then don't judge or try to explain how to keep them.

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

FCoulter
10-01-2012, 19:33
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
Good night, will you ever grow up?

I bet you were the nerdy kid in school who got bullied, then decided he would become a cop to help cover up his little man complex.
This would explain why you feel the needy to play the bully here and jump into threads and bash things you don't even observe.


Are you gonna next tell a Hindu how to keep their religious ceremonies?


I do feel sorry for you, and can't wait until the millennium so you can finally be taught the truth.

Kingarthurhk
10-01-2012, 20:00
Good night, will you ever grow up?

I bet you were the nerdy kid in school who got bullied, then decided he would become a cop to help cover up his little man complex.
This would explain why you feel the needy to play the bully here and jump into threads and bash things you don't even observe.


Are you gonna next tell a Hindu how to keep their religious ceremonies?


I do feel sorry for you, and can't wait until the millennium so you can finally be taught the truth.

So, how's that judging thing for you. Point of fact I am 6 feet tall, mild manered, walk softly, and carry a big stick.

If we are going to play psychological games, I am guessing you are a very very insecure person. You lash out constantly at everyone around you in an attempt to gain some control over your own disturbing thoughts and anger issues. You are in a very controlling religious environment that you at once admire and feel opressed by. You wish you could emulate those in authority over you because you hate feeling powerless, but have the dark need for control.

English is clearly not your first language. When you are flustered your sentence structure becomes very erratic. It is then you reach out to copy paste something directly from the leaders you at once admire and despise.

I would say you are a younger person, who might be married, but in any event you feel the need to dominate your partner. This makes your relationships tempestuous at best. As a result your relationship with the opposite sex is strained and lurking beneath the surface is your potential for violence.

You cannot tolerate contrariness from anyone so you lash out verbally, though, I suspect you have had the "hands on approach" to the "weaker sex", (in your opinion) and probably pose a danger to them.

Your last comment is manifest of your need for domination, and you actually do thrive on a need for confrontation. When I would not respond to you in other threads you attempted to goad me into a response, again, in your desire to gain control.

In short you have the makings of a rapist or a serial killer.

FCoulter
10-01-2012, 21:00
So, how's that judging thing for you. Point of fact I am 6 feet tall, mild manered, walk softly, and carry a big stick.

If we are going to play psychological games, I am guessing you are a very very insecure person. You lash out constantly at everyone around you in an attempt to gain some control over your own disturbing thoughts and anger issues. You are in a very controlling religious environment that you at once admire and feel opressed by. You wish you could emulate those in authority over you because you hate feeling powerless, but have the dark need for control.

English is clearly not your first language. When you are flustered your sentence structure becomes very erratic. It is then you reach out to copy paste something directly from the leaders you at once admire and despise.

I would say you are a younger person, who might be married, but in any event you feel the need to dominate your partner. This makes your relationships tempestuous at best. As a result your relationship with the opposite sex is strained and lurking beneath the surface is your potential for violence.

You cannot tolerate contrariness from anyone so you lash out verbally, though, I suspect you have had the "hands on approach" to the "weaker sex", (in your opinion) and probably pose a danger to them.

Your last comment is manifest of your need for domination, and you actually do thrive on a need for confrontation. When I would not respond to you in other threads you attempted to goad me into a response, again, in your desire to gain control.

In short you have the makings of a rapist or a serial killer.
You really need professional help!

Kingarthurhk
10-02-2012, 01:47
You really need professional help!

My point to you entirely.

FCoulter
10-02-2012, 05:12
My point to you entirely.
I am sorry I pushed your buttons so easily. I was pointing out that I believe you are a bully since you follow me from thread to thread and pick fight about things you don't even celebrate. I have asked you not to but you continue.

I am glad you think you are walking tall.
I still think you prob. Was bullied as a child since you act as you do now. I may be wrong and that's ok.


The rant you posted was out of line. Typical of a disturbed person, if you acted as you did here n your job Promise you that you would be unemployed.


Anyways, may God bless you and help you deal with your inner demons.

Mrs. VR
10-02-2012, 05:36
I doubt I really need to point out that name calling/flaming/stalky behavior, etc is all a violation of the TOS.(not to mention highly ironic in this particular subforum)

If you wish to continue to have posting privileges in this forum this must stop. Make use of your ignore list if you can't manage it on your own. Thank you.