Crimping ? [Archive] - Glock Talk

PDA

View Full Version : Crimping ?


racking on
09-12-2012, 16:08
Do you have to crimp handgun reloades for best of grouping on paper at 15-30yds using 9mm G19, also has anyone heard of the consistent crimper at www.precisionaccuracycompany.com (http://www.precisionaccuracycompany.com)? If we do have to crimp will this crimper using lee factory crimp die be worth buying?

Zombie Steve
09-13-2012, 12:07
Generally, you'll have to taper crimp to get it to function in a semi-auto, but don't think of it as crimping. Think of it as de-flaring the case. All you're trying to do is straighten it back out. Neck tension holds the bullet just fine.

Your normal seater die will be able to do this. You might want to do it in two steps, although both seating and crimping can be done at the same time. Just easier to take them one at a time.

Take your barrel out of your gun and drop a finished round in the chamber. Just crimp enough to get it to drop in flush with the barrel hood. It should fall out freely. That's all you need.

No need for the Lee fcd or any other fancy crimp dies. .

DoctaGlockta
09-13-2012, 12:30
Generally, you'll have to taper crimp to get it to function in a semi-auto, but don't think of it as crimping. Think of it as de-flaring the case. All you're trying to do is straighten it back out. Neck tension holds the bullet just fine.

Your normal seater die will be able to do this. You might want to do it in two steps, although both seating and crimping can be done at the same time. Just easier to take them one at a time.

Take your barrel out of your gun and drop a finished round in the chamber. Just crimp enough to get it to drop in flush with the barrel hood. It should fall out freely. That's all you need.

No need for the Lee fcd or any other fancy crimp dies. .

http://youtu.be/pWdd6_ZxX8c

SPIN2010
09-13-2012, 12:35
Interesting ... why would you need to crimp straight case based calibers? I would think to just de-flare would be fine. I have never crimped a 9mm, 10mm/.40, or a .45ACP in over thirty years. Curious.

F106 Fan
09-13-2012, 12:42
There are some fine target pistols in this world including the Colt Gold Cup and the S&W Model 52 (not even counting all the great .22s such as the S&W Model 41) but the Glock 19 isn't one of them. Nor was it intended to be!

One characteristic of a target pistol is a very crisp trigger break with no perceptible creep. The long-creep trigger of the Glock will never make the cut.

I have to be realistic about my shooting. My eyesight isn't much, my grip is questionable and the trigger on my G21SF just sucks. Still, I can keep the holes in an 8" circle at all practical distances. I can hold the 10 ring at 7 yards so I know the gun will shoot. I am the limiting factor in all my shooting. Not the firearms!

The Lee FCD isn't highly regarded around here for crimping ANY semiauto pistol cases although is sees some use for crimping revolver cases where the bullet has a cannelure such as .38, .44 MAG, .357 MAG and I'm using it to crimp .223 with a 55 gr FMJ. But any roll crimp die would work just as well and they have done so for many decades.

In terms of pistol loading, the FCD is supposed to solve a problem that shouldn't exist (improperly sized cases) and creates a problem that didn't exist (over crimping on straightwall pistol cases).

I prefer a taper crimp die on semiauto cases as a separate operation. Besides testing the loaded round in the chamber (remember, you can fit a bowling ball in a Glock chamber), you should make certain the casemouth of the top round in the magazine doesn't catch on the base of the case being ejected. I place a straightedge along the case to see that the taper has been totally removed.

Pull a few bullets after taper crimping and make sure the casemouth is not being embedded into the bullet. This is particularly important with plated bullets. The plating isn't very thick and cutting through it does nothing for accuracy.

As to measuring the torque applied during crimping, I wonder if the brass wall thickness and annealing make a difference. That is, given a few thousand random cases, all loaded in a batch, it would seem to me that even with consistent torque, some will be crimped more than others.

Of course we have the same problem with any other crimp technique because, unless case length is absolutely uniform, the crimp depth will vary.

For precision rifle, there is an arbor press for bullet seating that measures neck tension. But precision rifle is a whole different thing than loading dumpster quantities of pistol ammo.

Richard

fredj338
09-13-2012, 13:08
Interesting ... why would you need to crimp straight case based calibers? I would think to just de-flare would be fine. I have never crimped a 9mm, 10mm/.40, or a .45ACP in over thirty years. Curious.

If you are using the taper crimp in the seating die to remove the flare, then you are mildly taper crimping. So yes, always crimp your semiauto ammo ofr proper functioning. Leaving the flare or bell, even only 0.001" can cause feeding issues.
There have been reams written about the uslessness of the LFCD. A poor solution to just about any problem your ammo may have. If you need a LFCD to get your ammo to work, then you need a reloading class not a LFCD.

Colorado4Wheel
09-13-2012, 13:54
Taper crimping IS deflaring. Simple as that. Only time your are actually bending the case inward is when you have the bullet seated short enough to bend it inward with out denting the bullet. Its pretty clear if you look at the Lyman reloading manual.

fredj338
09-13-2012, 18:23
Taper crimping IS deflaring. Simple as that. Only time your are actually bending the case inward is when you have the bullet seated short enough to bend it inward with out denting the bullet. Its pretty clear if you look at the Lyman reloading manual.

Yes Steve, but it's not called a taper flare but a taper crimp. Come on guys, you are getting way off into the weeds.:upeyes:

HAMMERHEAD
09-13-2012, 18:46
with minimum flare/expansion of the case mouth, all you need to do is bump the case mouth with a taper crimp die to straighten them out. Redding, RCBS, heck, even Lee make good crimp dies.
No need for the FCD or some fancy crimp die.
Sorting cases, ensuring consistent powder charges, straight line bullet seating will all have more affect on accuracy than the brand of crimp die you use.

Colorado4Wheel
09-13-2012, 18:53
Yes Steve, but it's not called a taper flare but a taper crimp. Come on guys, you are getting way off into the weeds.:upeyes:

A roll crimp die would remove the flare just as well. Just saying. It's irrelevant if all you do is use minimal flare and the declare.

SPIN2010
09-13-2012, 19:14
Just an example.

Quote: Throughout the rest of this discussion, bear in mind the fact that not all cartridges will require a crimp of any kind. For those cartridges which can be loaded without resorting to a crimp, we recommend omitting this step altogether.

http://exteriorballistics.com/reloadbasics/crimp.cfm


... and to be fair. The article covers taking out the flare on a straight case as crimping. :dunno:

sciolist
09-13-2012, 20:06
I taper crimp all my 9mm to 0.375.

dhgeyer
09-14-2012, 09:55
Since no one else has mentioned it, I will. Too much crimp can be dangerous. Remember, the 9mm, 40, 45, and other straight walled rimless pistol cases headspace on the case mouth running into the step at the end of the chamber. If a case is crimped too much, it could wedge itself a bit past that step. This would drastically raise pressure, as the case would not release the bullet properly.

This degree of overcrimping would be difficult with standard dies for the caliber. But it is possible if one gets overzealous. When setting up the seating/taper crimping die, look to see if the case mouth is getting deformed or shaved. If it is, that's way too much crimp. And NEVER NEVER roll crimp a straight walled rimless pistol cartridge for a semi-auto pistol. Roll crimping is for revolvers with rimmed cases, or rifle cartridges. This would be hard to do anyway unless one was using bullets with a groove or cannelure. Cast bullets have them. One could overcrimp a soft lead bullet, too, to the point of being dangerous.

SARDG
09-14-2012, 10:35
I taper crimp all my 9mm to 0.375.
That seems like a lot as the SAAMI case mouth measurement is .380.

SARDG
09-14-2012, 13:44
That seems like a lot as the SAAMI case mouth measurement is .380.
I've been measuring factory and some of my reloads with different bullets... Is that SAAMI figure "nominal"? "maximum"? There is no time in the reloading process where .380 is achieved with my setup (except the temporary flare of course).

F106 Fan
09-14-2012, 14:02
The .3800" dimension is a 'reference'. There is no tolerance specified other than note about Body Diameter - 0.007".

The .3800" also must be a MAX number because the chamber is spec'd at 0.3810" and there must be some clearance or the slightest puff of smoke will keep a round from chambering.

The .3810" dimension is also a 'reference'. If it has a tolerance, it is +0.004".

Notice that the 0.3800" and 0.3810" are specified to the nearest ten thousandth of an inch. The spec if very serious about these numbers to have spec'd them to 4 decimal places.

Richard

fredj338
09-14-2012, 18:09
A roll crimp die would remove the flare just as well. Just saying. It's irrelevant if all you do is use minimal flare and the declare.

Correct & I have done that. Still, it is correct to call it crimping because you are using a taper crimp die. Semantics maybe, but is what it is.:dunno: FWIW, I don'tthink I have ecer measured case mouth crimp. If you can see a crimp w/ a taper crimp, it's too much.

Colorado4Wheel
09-14-2012, 18:16
I just want people to understand that you don't actually bend the case inward.

unclebob
09-14-2012, 19:21
The .3800" dimension is a 'reference'. There is no tolerance specified other than note about Body Diameter - 0.007".

The .3800" also must be a MAX number because the chamber is spec'd at 0.3810" and there must be some clearance or the slightest puff of smoke will keep a round from chambering.

The .3810" dimension is also a 'reference'. If it has a tolerance, it is +0.004".

Notice that the 0.3800" and 0.3810" are specified to the nearest ten thousandth of an inch. The spec if very serious about these numbers to have spec'd them to 4 decimal places.

Richard
And if you over crimp you start sizing the bullet.

fredj338
09-14-2012, 22:45
I just want people to understand that you don't actually bend the case inward.

Very true, why I always tell noobs to pull a bullet & see how it looks. You can also over crimp w/ a roll crimp, but it's harder to do.:wavey:

Gpruitt54
09-17-2012, 21:09
I just returned from the range after trying out my first reloading 9mm rounds. I've been reloading .40S&W rounds for a month. I've loaded and fired about 300 .40S&W rounds with no issues at all. However my 9mm reloads had lots of feeding issues. Out of 200 rounds, about 10 rounds jammed while the rounds were moving up the feed ramp. I am using a factory crimp (Lee 4 die set), but apparently I am not putting enough crimp on the rounds.

So, how much crimp is enough; and how much crimp is too much; and how do Itell when enough is enough? I have to assume that I have not enough crimp on my 9mm rounds. But I need some confirmation. During my range visit, the accuracy was very good; nice tight groups, though slightly to the left of aimpoint. Factory rounds are dead-on true to aimpoint.

I am using 115gn 9mm FMJ bullets form Precision Delta. My brass is once fired brass that has been tumbled clean to a high shine.

My weapon is a Glock19.

F106 Fan
09-17-2012, 21:55
This entire thread has been about crimping straightwall pistol cartridges.

All you want to do is close up the case mouth. You don't want to crimp so much that you mark the bullet. The casemouth should be about 0.0001" smaller in diameter than the diameter of the cartridge about 0.030" away. In other words, put a straightedge along the bullet and you should not see daylight anywhere along the bullet portion of the cartridge.

The other thing mentioned in this thread is the the FCD is NOT the way to do it. Use the thing on a fishing line and after you cast, cut the string.

Buy a legitimate Taper Crimp Die
http://www.midwayusa.com/find?userSearchQuery=taper+crimp+die++

See post #5 in this thread for more about the FCD

Some bullet profiles are harder to feed than others. Sometimes excessive OAL make feeding more difficult.

If you are using plated bullets, make sure your crimp doesn't break through the plating. You have a little more latitude to overcrimp on lead or jacketed bullets but you still shouldn't leave much of a mark. It is important that the round headspace on the casemouth and this won't happen if you bury it in the bullet.

Do you have a case gauge? If not, get one.

Take the barrel out of your gun and use the chamber as a gauge. Drop a loaded round in the chamber and spin it. The only part that should drag is the leading edge of the case mouth. You can put Dykem Blue on the cartridge to see where it rubs the chamber.

Dykem CL-BLUE Layout Fluid Ship Ground Only ORM-D,4oz Size: Amazon.com: Home Improvement@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51UF9oyOBFL.@@AMEPARAM@@51UF9oyOBFL

You can also use a Sharpie.

Richard

Jager247
09-18-2012, 03:07
You will need to remove the bell that the powder/expander die put in. You will either need to use the crimp function of the seater die or FCD to do that. I like to use the FCD because I like to use the post sizing ring as a case gage. If the round doesn't get post sized it should be within spec and function in your gun. If it does get post sized then I set it to the side and inspect it or pull it apart and reuse the components.

shotgunred
09-18-2012, 06:11
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]So, how much crimp is enough; and how much crimp is too much; and how do Itell when enough is enough? I have to assume that I have not enough crimp on my9mm rounds. But I need some confirmation. During my range visit, the accuracywas very good; nice tight groups, though slightly to the left of aimpoint.Factory rounds are dead-on true to aimpoint.




You are trying to straighten the case wall with out pushing it in. So it should feel straight with your finger. It should hold the bullet so that you can not move the bullet in the case by pushing on it. But no tight that if you pull it there is a mark on the bullet when you pull it..

Gpruitt54
09-18-2012, 11:02
You are trying to straighten the case wall with out pushing it in. So it should feel straight with your finger. It should hold the bullet so that you can not move the bullet in the case by pushing on it. But no tight that if you pull it there is a mark on the bullet when you pull it..

Great! I'll go back and reset the factory crimp die to a better setting. I started with using a factory round as a starting setting for the factory crimp die.

HAMMERHEAD
09-18-2012, 14:57
However my 9mm reloads had lots of feeding issues. Out of 200 rounds, about 10 rounds jammed while the rounds were moving up the feed ramp. I am using a factory crimp (Lee 4 die set), but apparently I am not putting enough crimp on the rounds.
I would look at charge weight/power level, cartridge length or bullet choice as possible issues with feed reliability before crimps.
Glock 19's seem to like longer OAL's and full power loads to cycle reliably.

Gpruitt54
09-18-2012, 20:55
I would look at charge weight/power level, cartridge length or bullet choice as possible issues with feed reliability before crimps.
Glock 19's seem to like longer OAL's and full power loads to cycle reliably.

OK, I am not discounting any possible cause. My factory loads all run well. I am absolutely sure of the powder loads in my rounds. I am following to the letter, the load information provided in my Lee manual. On the topic of crimp, I just took a close look at the adjustment of my crimp die, and basically, there is no factory crimp to speak of. I'm adjusting the factory crimp to apply a light level of crimp. Afterwards, I will manually cycle the slide with some rounds and see how they do. Of course, I will also fire the rounds at the range and see how they do.

Colorado4Wheel
09-18-2012, 21:39
You can use the jaws of your dial calipers to hold the loaded round. You will visually be able to see any remaining flare between the case and the jaws if you hold it up to a light source. Or you can just measure the end of the case and see if the flare still exists.

fredj338
09-19-2012, 13:11
I would look at charge weight/power level, cartridge length or bullet choice as possible issues with feed reliability before crimps.
Glock 19's seem to like longer OAL's and full power loads to cycle reliably.

Just not my exp w/ Glocks at all. If anything, Glock's will run w/ a broad range of vel better than other designs. The generous chambers also allow variations in crimp not allowed in other designs. I am doubting crimp is the issue if the round will plunk test in the bbl. Soemthing else is amiss.:dunno:
I am following to the letter, the load information provided in my Lee manual.
Meaning what? Load data has a range. Starting loads will often fail to provide 100% reliable functioning in many semis. You never mention the specs of your 9mm load. Something else is likely causing you the feeding issues, not crimp. If you can not see the flare, your crimp is likely fine.

Colorado4Wheel
09-19-2012, 13:42
For the record. LEE's reloading data is vague and incomplete. It is condensed from multiple sources and put into a table that looks like it all came from the same place. That is NOT the case. It is simply public domain data that he has put in a chart for your convenience.

Get another source for your data. I would recommend Lyman.

F106 Fan
09-19-2012, 14:19
It's probably worth discussing the load. What bullet, what and how much powder, what OAL?

If the factory rounds work and yours don't, make yours more like factory. Is the bullet profile the same? Is the OAL the same?

What does the round look like when it jams? Is the bullet up against the top of the chamber and the base still under the lips on the magazine? The OAL is too long or the bullet profile could be an issue.

You can't simply shorten up the OAL without considering the increase in pressure. This will be very important if you are anywhere near a max load.

And one last time: Lose the FCD and get a real taper crimp die!

Richard

Gpruitt54
09-19-2012, 20:24
Just not my exp w/ Glocks at all. If anything, Glock's will run w/ a broad range of vel better than other designs. The generous chambers also allow variations in crimp not allowed in other designs. I am doubting crimp is the issue if the round will plunk test in the bbl. Soemthing else is amiss.:dunno:

Meaning what? Load data has a range. Starting loads will often fail to provide 100% reliable functioning in many semis. You never mention the specs of your 9mm load. Something else is likely causing you the feeding issues, not crimp. If you can not see the flare, your crimp is likely fine.

If I examine my reload rounds against a factory round, my rounds seem tohave a tiny, perceptible gap, between the case neck and the bullet. I've adjusted my factory crimp die to apply a better/closer crimp between the caseneck and the bullet.

These were my very first 9mm reloads. My .40S&W reloads feed perfectly through my Glock 27. I've been reloading .40S&W for about a month. I amusing Lee Classic Turret Press and die sets for both 9mm and .40S&W.

I am using the mid-point of the powder load range highlighted in my Leemanual. I am doing this with both the 9mm and .40S&W reloads. I like the mid-pointof the powder weight range, I get tighter groupings. I'm reloading foraccuracy. I am not at all interested in hot loads.

Gpruitt54
09-19-2012, 20:55
It's probably worth discussing the load. What bullet, what and how much powder, what OAL?

If the factory rounds work and yours don't, make yours more like factory. Is the bullet profile the same? Is the OAL the same?

What does the round look like when it jams? Is the bullet up against the top of the chamber and the base still under the lips on the magazine? The OAL is too long or the bullet profile could be an issue.

You can't simply shorten up the OAL without considering the increase in pressure. This will be very important if you are anywhere near a max load.

And one last time: Lose the FCD and get a real taper crimp die!

Richard


Good questions. My factory rounds are 1.12 OAL.

I set my seating die to match the factory round's OAL.
I am using Accurate #2 powder.
My manual sets the powder weight between 3.6gn to 4.5gn.
My loads have 3.8gn of Accurate #2.
When the bullets jam, the noise of the bullet is just outside the chamber. The sholder of the bullet is resting on the feed ramp. The case neck appears to be hung up on the bottom of the feed ramp.

Does Lee make a taper crimp die?

F106 Fan
09-19-2012, 21:19
Does Lee make a taper crimp die?

Yes:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/274765/lee-taper-crimp-die-9mm-luger

I'll leave comments re: the load to those with more experience with 9mm

Richard

F106 Fan
09-19-2012, 21:42
What the heck, I'll jump in...

For the Sierra 115 gr FMJ, the Accurate manual gives, for #2:

No 2 115 SIE FMJ 3.7 971 4.6 1088 34302 1.100


Your load is very light and won't even make minor power factor for competition. Minor requires a power factor of 125,000 (we call it 125 by dropping the last 3 digits) which is the bullet weight in grains times the velocity in feet per second. Your power factor is only 112 - very light...

You are using slightly more than the minimum powder but you are setting the OAL a little longer than the Accurate data. Therefore, your velocity is not likely to be more than 971 fps. This may not be enough to reliably cycle the gun.

It might turn out that the slide is not moving fully to the rear and therefore, not properly engaging the top round in the magazine.

You might be better off using something like Unique. Sierra lists the OAL of their 115 gr FMJ at 1.100" with Unique 4.9 gr -> 1000 fps up to 6.6 gr -> 1250 fps.

Richard

Gpruitt54
09-20-2012, 06:27
What the heck, I'll jump in...

For the Sierra 115 gr FMJ, the Accurate manual gives, for #2:


Your load is very light and won't even make minor power factor for competition. Minor requires a power factor of 125,000 (we call it 125 by dropping the last 3 digits) which is the bullet weight in grains times the velocity in feet per second. Your power factor is only 112 - very light...

You are using slightly more than the minimum powder but you are setting the OAL a little longer than the Accurate data. Therefore, your velocity is not likely to be more than 971 fps. This may not be enough to reliably cycle the gun.

It might turn out that the slide is not moving fully to the rear and therefore, not properly engaging the top round in the magazine.

You might be better off using something like Unique. Sierra lists the OAL of their 115 gr FMJ at 1.100" with Unique 4.9 gr -> 1000 fps up to 6.6 gr -> 1250 fps.

Richard


For of all, thanks for your reply. These forums are great for a new reloader my myself.

I am going to address your topics out of turn. I have Unique. I am not usingit because my manual does not call for Unique for 115gn jacketed bullets. Also,Unique and HP-38 (I have both) were giving inconsistent measures through my Lee auto desks. For me, the flake powders like Unique and HP-38 provided very inconsistent loads as opposed to the very consistent load weights I am getting with the Accurate #2 powder. It's because the Accurate #2 granules are very small beads (spherical balls). These fill the Lee auto disk cavity more consistently from drop to drop.Also, I found that the flake powders left loads of ash in the barrel. These powders were very dirty powders. I am not weighting powder by hand. I prefer not to.

You mentioned that another manual called for a recipe that was different than my Lee manual. As a new reloader, I find this difference from manual to manual to be very frustrating. So, I am looking at only one manual in this case itís the Lee manual. I have a Lyman manual, but it also calls for different powder loads that the Lee manual calls for. There are so many recipes, I assume they are all correct, but I cannot case after this recipe today and that recipe tomorrow.

I will address your other comments in a separate posting. Got to get towork.

F106 Fan
09-20-2012, 07:48
No two data sources will ever agree on anything! Just the way it is...

Glocks aren't known for tolerating light loads. Sure, they can be modified but, out of the box, they tend to like NATO level loads.

I have no idea what a NATO level load is but I would start by noting that 'minor' power factor for IDPA competition is 125 and I would probably load a little over that so that I didn't get disqualified at a match. I'm not saying that you should compete or anything like that. I'm just saying that a reasonable power factor might be somewhere around 130.

So, for a 130 power factor with a 115 gr bullet, I need to get to 1130 fps. Then I would look at the max load for Accurate No 2 and realize that I can't get there. Max is only 1088 fps which results in JUST making 'minor' with a full charge!

In my view, this is the wrong powder for the application.
http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/accurate_load_data_3.5.pdf

So, I would look around for something else. From Hornady 8th Edition, Power Pistol is a candidate. Somewhere around 5.8 gr will do the job and the max is 6.7 gr (1250 fps). There is plenty of room for error in dispensing...

Note that Hornady also specs the OAL of the 115 gr FMJ at 1.100". Also note that the 6.7 gr max matches the Alliant reload data although Alliant moves the OAL to 1.125":
http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/powderlist.aspx?page=/reloaders/powderlist.aspx&type=1&powderid=8&cartridge=23

Quoting from another forum talking about NATO loads:

Regular WWB 115grn FMJs move out at 1190fps (according to Winchester), probably as close as you can get without going to a high pressure loading.


Maybe you can check this. The point is, even Winchester White Box, which is considered marginal in Glocks, is moving pretty fast!

I have never used Power Pistol but I see it recommended around here. Accurate No. 7 wil also deliver 1150 fps with a max load pushing 1200 fps so there is a little room for error.

If you don't have Hornady 8th Ed., Speer #14, Sierra Ed. V 5th Printing and perhaps a couple of others, your library is incomplete. You simply can't have too much data. At a minimum, it is nice to check at least two references for every load. The powder manufacturers all have online data and some have downloadable manuals.

Richard

F106 Fan
09-20-2012, 08:26
It might be worth following along with this thread:
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1443463

WSF powder will get you to 1195 fps with 5.7 gr. You can get the data from the Hodgdon site.

Richard

F106 Fan
09-20-2012, 09:15
Federal Champion 115 gr advertises 1125 fps and chronos a little higher:
Federal Champion 115gr FMJ 9mm (WM5199) Velocity Test, 4" Barrel - YouTube

Richard

unclebob
09-20-2012, 09:54
Glocks aren't known for tolerating light loads. Sure, they can be modified but, out of the box, they tend to like NATO level loads.

Don't tell that to my 16 stock Glocks that I have owned. They might go on strike. 9mm, 40, 45acp and gap.

shotgunred
09-20-2012, 10:11
A cheap fix for your problem would be to drop down to a 15 pound spring. However re-springing the gun will not make you a better reloader. It will just let you use the load you have.

I can't give you a good working load with 115 gr because I never use them. You have to push your velocities higher with 115gr bullets to get your slide to fully function. On your next order switch to 124 gr. The 9mm luger was designed around a 124gr bullet. The only advantage of 115gr is they are a tiny bit cheaper.

I agree with Richard that WSF is a good powder for 9mm. It is my current favorite for 124gr.

F106 Fan
09-20-2012, 10:25
Don't tell that to my 16 stock Glocks that I have owned. They might go on strike. 9mm, 40, 45acp and gap.

Sure, but will the 9mm Glock shoot a 112 pf load? Particularly a Gen 4 with the new and improved RSA... Not that I know whether a Gen 4 is at issue here.

That's my only point. The load may be too light to cycle the gun.

To be perfectly fair, I have never shot a 9mm Glock. The only Glock I have is a G21SF (.45 ACP) and it shoots my moderate loads very well. Still, they are around 175 power factor, somewhat more than the 165 it takes to make 'major'.

Over on the General Glocking forum, there are a lot of owners of Gen 4 9mm guns complaining about Federal Champion and even it is running 129 power factor.

The few thousand 9mm 115 gr that I have made use either WSF or Bullseye and both will cycle an XD9 just fine. But 9mm isn't my thing...

Richard

unclebob
09-20-2012, 11:18
Looks like the lowest I have gone with a 115gr bullets is with a PF of 113. Most of my 9mm shooting is with 135 and 147 gr bullets. 115gr are just too light for knocking over pepper poppers.

F106 Fan
09-20-2012, 12:19
There's nothing like a 230 gr LRN for knocking things down!

I used to shoot bowling pins with 230 gr Black Talon bullets. Those things would GRAB the pin. Back in the day...

Richard

unclebob
09-20-2012, 12:36
I personally have no use for 230gr 45 bullets. I use 200gr. You start out lunging around 100 rds. of 45 300rds some times 400rds of 135 or 147gr 9mm rounds. 40 or 50 mags and 3 or 4 guns. The least amount of weight the better also I think the 200 gr have less perceived recoil, cheaper and more accurate and less weight than the 230.

F106 Fan
09-20-2012, 12:51
I agree! I shoot mostly 200 gr LSWC. I load FMJ for my grandson (by edict, he doesn't shoot lead bullets) and sometimes 230 gr LRN just to change things up.

But, by far, the 200 gr LSWC is my bullet of choice.

Richard

HAMMERHEAD
09-20-2012, 15:28
Just not my exp w/ Glocks at all. If anything, Glock's will run w/ a broad range of vel better than other designs. The generous chambers also allow variations in crimp not allowed in other designs.
I only meant that every gun will have it's minimum power required to cycle it. Many handloaders start very low, too low to cycle any 9mm auto. But I do agree that the G-19 is very tolerant of power levels and crimps.
I've run many hundreds of uncrimped 9mm practice rounds through my G-19. I just resized/reprimed, charged and seated the bullet with a competition seater. No flaring/expanding before bullet seating, no crimp after. All ran 100%

Gpruitt54
09-20-2012, 17:03
Looks like the lowest I have gone with a 115gr bullets is with a PF of 113. Most of my 9mm shooting is with 135 and 147 gr bullets. 115gr are just too light for knocking over pepper poppers.

My only (reasonably priced) range options are indoor with paper targest. For those purposes, 115gn bullets seem perfect.

Gpruitt54
09-20-2012, 18:49
I only meant that every gun will have it's minimum power required to cycle it. Many handloaders start very low, too low to cycle any 9mm auto. But I do agree that the G-19 is very tolerant of power levels and crimps.
I've run many hundreds of uncrimped 9mm practice rounds through my G-19. I just resized/reprimed, charged and seated the bullet with a competition seater. No flaring/expanding before bullet seating, no crimp after. All ran 100%

So, I need to increase my powder load??? I'll load 50 rounds with 4.0gn of Accurate #2 and see how they run. These will be my second batch of 9mm reloaded rounds.

Gpruitt54
09-20-2012, 19:06
No two data sources will ever agree on anything! Just the way it is...

Glocks aren't known for tolerating light loads. Sure, they can be modified but, out of the box, they tend to like NATO level loads.

I have no idea what a NATO level load is but I would start by noting that 'minor' power factor for IDPA competition is 125 and I would probably load a little over that so that I didn't get disqualified at a match. I'm not saying that you should compete or anything like that. I'm just saying that a reasonable power factor might be somewhere around 130.

So, for a 130 power factor with a 115 gr bullet, I need to get to 1130 fps. Then I would look at the max load for Accurate No 2 and realize that I can't get there. Max is only 1088 fps which results in JUST making 'minor' with a full charge!

In my view, this is the wrong powder for the application.
http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/accurate_load_data_3.5.pdf

So, I would look around for something else. From Hornady 8th Edition, Power Pistol is a candidate. Somewhere around 5.8 gr will do the job and the max is 6.7 gr (1250 fps). There is plenty of room for error in dispensing...

Note that Hornady also specs the OAL of the 115 gr FMJ at 1.100". Also note that the 6.7 gr max matches the Alliant reload data although Alliant moves the OAL to 1.125":
http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/powderlist.aspx?page=/reloaders/powderlist.aspx&type=1&powderid=8&cartridge=23

Quoting from another forum talking about NATO loads:


Maybe you can check this. The point is, even Winchester White Box, which is considered marginal in Glocks, is moving pretty fast!

I have never used Power Pistol but I see it recommended around here. Accurate No. 7 wil also deliver 1150 fps with a max load pushing 1200 fps so there is a little room for error.

If you don't have Hornady 8th Ed., Speer #14, Sierra Ed. V 5th Printing and perhaps a couple of others, your library is incomplete. You simply can't have too much data. At a minimum, it is nice to check at least two references for every load. The powder manufacturers all have online data and some have downloadable manuals.

Richard

Gee, where do I start? Lots of this and other conversation focuses on terms that I am not fully aquanted with. Terms line Power factors, I don't know what that is or how it is calculated, or how to make that make since to what I am trying to do. Right now, I am trying not to over do a load and damage my self, my weapon, or someone else.

Until I am more experienced, I am going to stick with what is in the Lee manual and my Lyman manual. These are all that I have. I will check online and see what is on the sites of my powder manufacturer. Do I really need to go out and buy another pound of powder? I have Accurate #2 (my now favorite), Unique, and HP-38.

Will I be ok by just increasing my powder load from my current 3.8gn to, lets say, 4.0gn of Accurate #2? At this point, the last thing I want to do is buy another poind of powder.

PCJim
09-20-2012, 19:31
Power factor has absolutely nothing to do with reloading. It is a crude means of determining an energy level that is used in competitive shooting sports, to try to prevent "gamers" from shooting powder puff loads in an attempt to obtain a competitive edge over other shooters.

As mentioned before, Lee's reloading is nothing more than a compilation of reloading data from many varied sources. The problem with Lee's data is that you have no idea of the bullet profile, barrel length, the testing apparatus or any of a number of other variables surrounding the component selection. That is why we don't put much faith in Lee's data. sure, it is reliable data but under what testing conditions and with what specific components?

Your intention of using Lyman's data and that of your powder manufacturer is a good start.

unclebob
09-20-2012, 19:31
Load 4.0 and see what it does. I think you 3.8 is a little low.

Gpruitt54
09-20-2012, 21:27
Load 4.0 and see what it does. I think you 3.8 is a little low.

Good. I just loaded 50 rounds using 4.0gn of Accurate #2. I've also snugged up the crimp die just a hair. Tomorrow, I'll stop at the range and try out the rounds.

I'll report the results.

I really want to thank you guys for your sound advise. When ever I post a question about reloading, I come away a little smarter.

F106 Fan
09-20-2012, 22:22
Gee, where do I start? Lots of this and other conversation focuses on terms that I am not fully aquanted with. Terms line Power factors, I don't know what that is or how it is calculated, or how to make that make since to what I am trying to do. Right now, I am trying not to over do a load and damage my self, my weapon, or someone else.


The power factor calculation is described in post 35 of this thread. It is a meaningless number by itself but it can be used to compare bullet weights and velocities. But, for a given bullet weight, simply comparing velocities is enough.

Your load won't come anywhere near either Winchester White Box or Federal Champion and, in fact, if you loaded MAX with the No. 2, you still can't match what are considered marginal factory loads. And loading MAX is something to avoid.



Until I am more experienced, I am going to stick with what is in the Lee manual and my Lyman manual. These are all that I have. I will check online and see what is on the sites of my powder manufacturer. Do I really need to go out and buy another pound of powder? I have Accurate #2 (my now favorite), Unique, and HP-38.


I don't have the Lee manual (but I do have the book) and I have Lyman's. I don't tend to use either of them. I prefer Hornady, Speer and Sierra. For rifle I use only Sierra as I use their bullets.

No. 2 is just a poor choice for the 115 gr 9mm load. However, if it works, it works. Use it! But I certainly wouldn't buy another pound.

Usually during load development, the reloader makes about 10 rounds (sometimes just 5) each of several different loadings in 0.1 gr steps between published MIN and MAX (and I stay away from MAX). At the range they are shot from MIN toward MAX and if the gun shoots well at some particular loading, there isn't a lot of excess inventory.

You need to be looking for velocity in the range of 1130 fps so load somewhere between the table values for 1100 and 1150 fps. The thing is, at the 1150 end, it would be best if it is not a MAX load. It would be better if the powder will get to 1200 or 1250 so there is some room for error in dispensing.

Richard

fredj338
09-20-2012, 23:06
You mentioned that another manual called for a recipe that was different than my Lee manual. As a new reloader, I find this difference from manual to manual to be very frustrating. So, I am looking at only one manual in this case it’s the Lee manual. I have a Lyman manual, but it also calls for different powder loads that the Lee manual calls for. There are so many recipes, I assume they are all correct, but I cannot case after this recipe today and that recipe tomorrow. [/SIZE][/FONT]

I will address your other comments in a separate posting. Got to get towork.

It's NOT a good way to reload. One data source can be actually more diff to work with, especially in the Lee manual. I always recommend as many data points as possible. Avg the data & use avg middle if you like.
On your crimp, if you can see a visible gap between bullet & case neck something isn't right for sure. Again, hate the LFCD, but it can be made to work. The seating die will also crimp, just seating & crimping have to be done in one step.
All of the powders you have will work, some better than others in the Lee measure. The load of 3.8gr of AA#2 is very light, not middle of the data at all for a 115gr bullet. Hornady lists 4.3gr as starting. Bump your charge up & fix the crimp so there is no visible gap between case mouth & bullet. It's no diff than loading for the 40.

Gpruitt54
09-21-2012, 08:06
It's NOT a good way to reload. One data source can be actually more diff to work with, especially in the Lee manual. I always recommend as many data points as possible. Avg the data & use avg middle if you like.
On your crimp, if you can see a visible gap between bullet & case neck something isn't right for sure. Again, hate the LFCD, but it can be made to work. The seating die will also crimp, just seating & crimping have to be done in one step.
All of the powders you have will work, some better than others in the Lee measure. The load of 3.8gr of AA#2 is very light, not middle of the data at all for a 115gr bullet. Hornady lists 4.3gr as starting. Bump your charge up & fix the crimp so there is no visible gap between case mouth & bullet. It's no diff than loading for the 40.

I've only been doing this for slightly more than a month. Before I purchased my equipment, I was reading the Lyman manual. During that period, nothing was ever mentioned about using several sources for load data. In fact, the books say to be weary of recommended load data and only follow the information in the tables. Keep in mind, someone new at this is going to play it safe and start with the lowest loads as described in the load tables.

Many of the loads in the tables are well below 1100 fps. Why is this information in the manuals if these are somehow not recommended as stated by some on this thread? Why would the manuals include these so-called light loads if they are not to be used. This is confusing to a new loader. It is confusing to have the manuals recommend starting loads that are totally contradicted by contributors to this and other reloading forums.

I thought I was doing the right thing and now I don't know what to do. Please consider the concerns of a new reloader. Consider that for a new reloader having several powders and bullets readily available on hand are not likely. i have what I have and am trying to make the best of my current inventory; such that it is.

I have three powders, only of which I like; that is the Accurate #2. I like it because it burns cleanly and it measures consistently with my equipment. I have one bullet weight, that is 115gn FMJ. Until I am able to buy other weight bullets, that is it for me.

I thank you guys for all the good advice, but at this point I am now quite confused on some important points.

fredj338
09-21-2012, 09:36
What is recommended is to use only published data. No one ever says only use their book. Diff test platforms, & components are why you need more than one source. There test platforms are not your gun. Your componenets are rarely exactly the book componenets. So starting data is safe but rarely going to be the best performer, particularly in semiautos that have to function not just go bang.
You should only be using one bullet & one powder to learn on. THis will keep confusion down & safety at it's highest level. All of this is confusing because you are new & unless you read every book on reloading available, taken a class &/or have a mentor, your knowledge level is minimal & learning curve steep. The more you know & understand, the less confusion you'll have. So you can bump along & figure it out your self or continue to ask question & continue to learn your new hobby. The more you know the faster you learn.
So ask questions, some of us here know quite a bit, some of us know as much as the guys writing the manuals. You don't handload 100s of 1000s of rounds of dozens of calibers & survive to tell about it doing something wrong or stupid. SOme of us reload for calibers w/o any printed reference. Yes, many of us know what we are doing. The trouble being new, you don't know enough to decide who knows more than you.:supergrin:

Colorado4Wheel
09-21-2012, 11:01
Use reliable published load data, start low and work it up. Usually, mid range loads or slightly higher work best. But, nothing is set in stone.

F106 Fan
09-21-2012, 12:30
In fact, the books say to be weary of recommended load data and only follow the information in the tables. Keep in mind, someone new at this is going to play it safe and start with the lowest loads as described in the load tables.


You should be very wary of load information obtained through Internet forums and such. Use only PUBLISHED information, either from reloading manuals, powder data manuals or powder manufacturer's web sites.

And still it won't all agree...

If good old 'Billy-Bob' gives you a load via a forum or even at the range, cross-check is against published information. If the load isn't within range in some publication, DON'T use it! It doesn't happen here but I have read where some forums have trolls providing bad information on purpose.

And NEVER trust any numbers that I type! I am getting old, my typing is poor and my eyesight isn't much either!


Many of the loads in the tables are well below 1100 fps. Why is this information in the manuals if these are somehow not recommended as stated by some on this thread? Why would the manuals include these so-called light loads if they are not to be used. This is confusing to a new loader. It is confusing to have the manuals recommend starting loads that are totally contradicted by contributors to this and other reloading forums.


There are guns other than Glocks. I know it's hard to believe but, really, there are 9mm guns that will cycle on light loads. The Glock comes from the factory as a combat weapon and the designers expect to have full power NATO rounds. Then there is the issue with the oversprung Gen 4 9mms where Glock has gone through 4 iterations of stepping back on the recoil spring. The guns wouldn't shoot commercial ammo at all when they were first released.


I thought I was doing the right thing and now I don't know what to do. Please consider the concerns of a new reloader. Consider that for a new reloader having several powders and bullets readily available on hand are not likely. i have what I have and am trying to make the best of my current inventory; such that it is.


One thing to do is read the stickies at the top of this forum. Among other things there is a strategy to working up loads from MIN toward (but maybe never reaching) MAX.

The other thing to do is ask questions. I don't think anyone around here would have recommended No. 2 for 115 gr 9mm. All would have probably recommended starting from MIN but they might have used a different souce and, therefore, a different MIN.

Coincidentally, there is a thread on 9mm powder going on right now. There is also a search feature for the forum.


I have three powders, only of which I like; that is the Accurate #2. I like it because it burns cleanly and it measures consistently with my equipment. I have one bullet weight, that is 115gn FMJ. Until I am able to buy other weight bullets, that is it for me.

There are other powders that burn clean and can be used to produce more velocity. At full charge, No. 2 can't deliver a reasonable velocity. It's just the wrong powder.

As you work up toward (but hopefully never reaching) MAX, No. 2 might deliver a load capable of cycling your gun. But if you have a Gen 4, the RSA may still be too strong to allow the slide to cycle even if you get to MAX. You'll just have to check and see.

I thank you guys for all the good advice, but at this point I am now quite confused on some important points.

You have been given 3 things to consider:


Get rid of the FCD and buy a taper crimp die
Get another load manual (or two) - Hornady and Speer are popular
Use a different powder
That should keep you busy for a while. Good luck!

Richard

Gpruitt54
09-22-2012, 21:59
It's NOT a good way to reload. One data source can be actually more diff to work with, especially in the Lee manual. I always recommend as many data points as possible. Avg the data & use avg middle if you like.
On your crimp, if you can see a visible gap between bullet & case neck something isn't right for sure. Again, hate the LFCD, but it can be made to work. The seating die will also crimp, just seating & crimping have to be done in one step.
All of the powders you have will work, some better than others in the Lee measure. The load of 3.8gr of AA#2 is very light, not middle of the data at all for a 115gr bullet. Hornady lists 4.3gr as starting. Bump your charge up & fix the crimp so there is no visible gap between case mouth & bullet. It's no diff than loading for the 40.

I stopped the my local sporting good store and picked up a Hornady reloading manual, 8th edition. That makes three manuals all together. Thanks for the recommendation. Unlike the other manuals I've been using, the Hornady manual starts with much higher FPS powder loads.

After trying two of the recommended loads at the range this weekend, I came away very impressed with the results. First of all, I am not getting feed problems that I experienced with my initial reloads of 9mm. According to the Hornady manual, my loads are in at or around 1000 FPS using 4.3gn of Accurate #2, with a 115gn, FMJ, bullet. With this load, I am getting 4" groups @ 10 yds. This kind of performance is a personal best for me. Never shot that consistently with factory loads.

So, as many of you recommended, it was an increase in powder load that did the trick. I am documenting my loads and performance. Gee, if this keeps up, before long, I'll kind of know what I am doing.

Thanks guys, I'm a happy dude! :dancing:

Zombie Steve
09-23-2012, 01:12
I stopped the my local sporting good store and picked up a Hornady reloading manual, 8th edition. That makes three manuals all together. Thanks for the recommendation. Unlike the other manuals I've been using, the Hornady manual starts with much higher FPS powder loads.


I mean no offense to Hornady when I say their manual is about the farthest from reality of anything I've tested...

Just make sure you're looking at the whole picture - seems like they test all pistol loads from a 7-1/2" Blackhawk barrel.

:supergrin:

PCJim
09-23-2012, 14:11
GP, as you stated, it is highly recommended that you document each of the components used, COL, date, and chrono results at a minimum. Keep it in a logbook, Excel spreadsheet or something similar. If/when you start production runs, keep a components data slip with the ammo so that you can keep the batches segregated. While some of this may seem like overkill, redundant and unnecessary, it will become a valuable resource for you in the future.

Gpruitt54
09-25-2012, 17:48
I mean no offense to Hornady when I say their manual is about the farthest from reality of anything I've tested...

Just make sure you're looking at the whole picture - seems like they test all pistol loads from a 7-1/2" Blackhawk barrel.

:supergrin:

The Hornady manual has been recommended by many on this forum. So, I bought it. I am very happy with the results. I was experiencing misfeeds with my previous loads. The loads based on the Hornady manual run like silk through my Glock 19. So, it's working for me.

But, what do I know, I'm new at all this.

fredj338
09-25-2012, 22:45
The Hornady manual has been recommended by many on this forum. So, I bought it. I am very happy with the results. I was experiencing misfeeds with my previous loads. The loads based on the Hornady manual run like silk through my Glock 19. So, it's working for me.

But, what do I know, I'm new at all this.

Nothing wrong w/ the Hornady manual but limited data on lead bullets. Most are better than the Lee, really poor reloading manual there IMO. I like the Lyman & SPeer better, but the Hornady is ok.
Good record keeping is a must. It doesn't matter how, spread sheet or binder, but do it. You need to at least note:
powder & how much
bullet & weight
primer brand & type
over all length (OAL or LOA or COAL)
There is lots of other stuff you can note, but that is my min.

judgecrater
09-26-2012, 16:31
The Hornady manual has been recommended by many on this forum. So, I bought it. I am very happy with the results. I was experiencing misfeeds with my previous loads. The loads based on the Hornady manual run like silk through my Glock 19. So, it's working for me.

But, what do I know, I'm new at all this.
From your very first posts and description of your jams I would have guessed OAL might be either too long or two short for the bullet profile you were using. Glad your latest reloads are feeding fine. Out of curiosity are you using the same bullets with the same over all length (OAL) and only changed the powder charge? Or are your successful reloads with a different bullet or OAL?

Gpruitt54
09-29-2012, 13:09
From your very first posts and description of your jams I would have guessed OAL might be either too long or two short for the bullet profile you were using. Glad your latest reloads are feeding fine. Out of curiosity are you using the same bullets with the same over all length (OAL) and only changed the powder charge? Or are your successful reloads with a different bullet or OAL?

Thanks for asking. I did two things.
1.) I upped the powder load to 4.3gn of Accurate #2, per my Hornady manual.
2.) I tightened up the crimp, only a little. Just enough to eliminate the ever so tiny gap between the case neck and the bullet.

The bullets (full metal Jacketed) are from Precision Delta.
The cases are once fired brass from Midway. I've cleaned and checked the case lengths (.745) with a case gauge.

I did not change the OAL of the rounds. The length of the rounds are 1.10 inches. This is based on the Factory 115gn FMJ 9mm rounds (Winchester white box, and Remington) I've been using before I started reloading.

As a side note; this may sound weird, but I really like the attention to detail required for this hobby, and the great questions of all you guys who contribute to this forum. Just thought I'd add that comment.

fredj338
09-29-2012, 13:53
Thanks for asking. I did two things.
1.) I upped the powder load to 4.3gn of Accurate #2, per my Hornady manual.
2.) I tightened up the crimp, only a little. Just enough to eliminate the ever so tiny gap between the case neck and the bullet.

The bullets (full metal Jacketed) are from Precision Delta.
The cases are once fired brass from Midway. I've cleaned and checked the case lengths (.745) with a case gauge.

I did not change the OAL of the rounds. The length of the rounds are 1.10 inches. This is based on the Factory 115gn FMJ 9mm rounds (Winchester white box, and Remington) I've been using before I started reloading.

As a side note; this may sound weird, but I really like the attention to detail required for this hobby, and the great questions of all you guys who contribute to this forum. Just thought I'd add that comment.
You have already made a critical mistake. You can not use OAL from a 115gr factory load w/ handload. You could be pushing dangerously higher pressures. OAL is ALWAYS bullet, gun & load data specific. You should be loading to the longest OAL your gun will run, not by measuring a factory round, unless you are using that exact bullet & powder, which you never will.

shotgunred
09-29-2012, 21:43
In his case it didn't matter because he was using way to little powder.

Gpruitt54 most new reloaders make the opposite mistake and go for max loads. Had you tried that with your short OAL you would be talking about your blown up gun!

Gpruitt54
09-29-2012, 22:56
You have already made a critical mistake. You can not use OAL from a 115gr factory load w/ handload. You could be pushing dangerously higher pressures. OAL is ALWAYS bullet, gun & load data specific. You should be loading to the longest OAL your gun will run, not by measuring a factory round, unless you are using that exact bullet & powder, which you never will.

So, what should the OAL be? Neither my Lee or Hornady says what specific OAL to set. I am loading 9mm and .40S&W. I was going to load some .40s but I am going to hold off on that until I get and answer about the OAL thing.

I just looked at my Lee Manual and it says that for my 115gn, FMJ, 9mm, with Accurate #2, the minimum OAL should be 1.07", and the max OAL should no more than 1.16. My 9mm rounds are 1.10". I am very confused, my rounds are above the minimum and below the maximum, so what mistake did I make. More importantly, what number should I be shooting (pun intended) for???

If I understand you, I should be setting my OAL to 1.07", the minimum. Is that right? So why do the manuals list a range with a min and max? And, why would I not go for the middle in my OAL?

I am loading for a Glock 19 Gen2 and a Glock 27 Gen3.

PCJim
09-30-2012, 07:06
You have already made a critical mistake. You can not use OAL from a 115gr factory load w/ handload. You could be pushing dangerously higher pressures. OAL is ALWAYS bullet, gun & load data specific. You should be loading to the longest OAL your gun will run, not by measuring a factory round, unless you are using that exact bullet & powder, which you never will.

So, what should the OAL be? Neither my Lee or Hornady says what specific OAL to set. I am loading 9mm and .40S&W. I was going to load some .40s but I am going to hold off on that until I get and answer about the OAL thing.

I just looked at my Lee Manual and it says that for my 115gn, FMJ, 9mm, with Accurate #2, the minimum OAL should be 1.07", and the max OAL should no more than 1.16. My 9mm rounds are 1.10". I am very confused, my rounds are above the minimum and below the maximum, so what mistake did I make. More importantly, what number should I be shooting (pun intended) for???

If I understand you, I should be setting my OAL to 1.07", the minimum. Is that right? So why do the manuals list a range with a min and max? And, why would I not go for the middle in my OAL?

I am loading for a Glock 19 Gen2 and a Glock 27 Gen3.

GP, reread what Fred posted that I highlighted in red. The industry "max" length is 1.169, and some magazine/pistol combinations will allow for an even longer COL. The minimum is just that, with the published load. You can always go longer as long as the COL will work in your barrel/magazine.

The best guideline is to first disassemble your pistol and use the barrel as a guide. Load your rounds to the longest COL that will pass the drop/plunk test for your barrel. Your round should drop into the chamber without any protrusion outside the rear of the chamber. (You can take a factory round, drop it in and look at how the case head seats into the rear of the chamber.)

Second, test that COL in your pistol's magazine. Load a round into the mag. The bullet should not scrape the inside of the magazine. If your COL passes both tests, you're at a good COL for that pistol/barrel combination.

The reason we always recommend you load to the longest COL is that doing so provides the most available volume inside the case where the pressure is developed during firing. Always remember that for any specific cartridge, less case volume equates to more pressure. Since your components and pistol combination will almost never be the same as the testing apparatus used to develop the published data, it is always best to allow yourself some leeway. Stretching the COL is effectively providing some relief for the pressure.

Once you've become satisfied with the round and are overly familiar with pressure signs, you can work on slowly reducing the COL, should you find a strong reason for doing so.

Personally, all my FMJ and LCN rounds are loaded to 1.14 - 1.15. That COL works in every 9mm that I own.

F106 Fan
09-30-2012, 08:17
So, what should the OAL be? Neither my Lee or Hornady says what specific OAL to set. I am loading 9mm and .40S&W. I was going to load some .40s but I am going to hold off on that until I get and answer about the OAL thing.

I just looked at my Lee Manual and it says that for my 115gn, FMJ, 9mm, with Accurate #2, the minimum OAL should be 1.07", and the max OAL should no more than 1.16. My 9mm rounds are 1.10". I am very confused, my rounds are above the minimum and below the maximum, so what mistake did I make. More importantly, what number should I be shooting (pun intended) for???

If I understand you, I should be setting my OAL to 1.07", the minimum. Is that right? So why do the manuals list a range with a min and max? And, why would I not go for the middle in my OAL?

I am loading for a Glock 19 Gen2 and a Glock 27 Gen3.

The Accurate manual, written by the manufacturer of the powder you are using, and the people much more likely to have actually tested the load, says that your load is mid-range.


No 2 115 SIE FMJ 3.7 971 4.6 1,088 34,202 1.100


Now, you probably aren't using a Sierra bullet but you aren't anywhere near MAX charge either (IIRC, you are using 4.3 gr) and your OAL is spot on for the Accurate data.

If you extend the OAL, you increase the case volume and probably need to increase the charge slightly just to achieve the same velocity. Remember, your original problem was that you didn't have enough velocity to cycle the gun and again, IIRC, you were using 3.8 gr and 1.120" OAL.

There is the potential issue that longer cartridges don't run up the feed ramp as well and, of course, there is the SAAMI limit of 1.169" and a more practical limit of whether the cartridge will fit in the magazine.

There are a lot of variables in reloading and one way of sorting them out is with a chronograph. You really need to know the muzzle velocity. If it is extraordinarily high, beyond what the load should deliver, your pressure is too high. You need to back off on charge or increase OAL. OTOH, if you get around 1000 fps with the load you are using, you are in the right ballpark.

I tend to go by what is written down in front of me and I have a downloaded copy of the Accurate manual. I would load exactly what you have and not give it a moment's thought.

http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/accurate_load_data_3.5.pdf

Mid-range, I like that!

Richard

shotgunred
09-30-2012, 08:47
For a glock an OAL between 1.125 to 1.135 is ideal.
But new reloaders should use what the book for their load says. Only after you have mastered the book load should you consider altering the formula to find the sweet spot for your individual gun.

Gpruitt54
09-30-2012, 09:10
The Accurate manual, written by the manufacturer of the powder you are using, and the people much more likely to have actually tested the load, says that your load is mid-range.



Now, you probably aren't using a Sierra bullet but you aren't anywhere near MAX charge either (IIRC, you are using 4.3 gr) and your OAL is spot on for the Accurate data.

If you extend the OAL, you increase the case volume and probably need to increase the charge slightly just to achieve the same velocity. Remember, your original problem was that you didn't have enough velocity to cycle the gun and again, IIRC, you were using 3.8 gr and 1.120" OAL.

There is the potential issue that longer cartridges don't run up the feed ramp as well and, of course, there is the SAAMI limit of 1.169" and a more practical limit of whether the cartridge will fit in the magazine.

There are a lot of variables in reloading and one way of sorting them out is with a chronograph. You really need to know the muzzle velocity. If it is extraordinarily high, beyond what the load should deliver, your pressure is too high. You need to back off on charge or increase OAL. OTOH, if you get around 1000 fps with the load you are using, you are in the right ballpark.

I tend to go by what is written down in front of me and I have a downloaded copy of the Accurate manual. I would load exactly what you have and not give it a moment's thought.

http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/accurate_load_data_3.5.pdf

Mid-range, I like that!

Richard

I am not at all interested in going for max loads. I like mid range loads. My mid-range loads perform very well. That is why I selected the load details I am using. My fired cases are not showing signs like bulges. I am using Precision Delta 9mm, 115gn, FMJ, NOT plated, bullets.

The 9mm data I am targeting is from the load table you included in the link. I don't have a chrono, so I am not sure how to ever be able to judge FPS.

The data says my loads are good. Thanks!

Gpruitt54
09-30-2012, 09:22
In his case it didn't matter because he was using way to little powder.

Gpruitt54 most new reloaders make the opposite mistake and go for max loads. Had you tried that with your short OAL you would be talking about your blown up gun!

Actually, I don't understand the tendancy to go for max. To each his own. I am going for precision, and acheving smaller and smaller groupings. If I wanted a big ass punch, I get a 12 guage pump, or a baseball bat.

F106 Fan
09-30-2012, 09:43
Actually, I don't understand the tendancy to go for max. To each his own. I am going for precision, and acheving smaller and smaller groupings. If I wanted a big ass punch, I get a 12 guage pump, or a baseball bat.

Some folks will load fire breathing pistol ammo for hunting with 10mm, .357 Mag and .44 Mag. Personally, I'm in to mid-range target loads in .45 ACP. Something that is pleasant to shoot.

Richard

Gpruitt54
09-30-2012, 09:48
GP, reread what Fred posted that I highlighted in red. The industry "max" length is 1.169, and some magazine/pistol combinations will allow for an even longer COL. The minimum is just that, with the published load. You can always go longer as long as the COL will work in your barrel/magazine.

The best guideline is to first disassemble your pistol and use the barrel as a guide. Load your rounds to the longest COL that will pass the drop/plunk test for your barrel. Your round should drop into the chamber without any protrusion outside the rear of the chamber. (You can take a factory round, drop it in and look at how the case head seats into the rear of the chamber.)

Second, test that COL in your pistol's magazine. Load a round into the mag. The bullet should not scrape the inside of the magazine. If your COL passes both tests, you're at a good COL for that pistol/barrel combination.

The reason we always recommend you load to the longest COL is that doing so provides the most available volume inside the case where the pressure is developed during firing. Always remember that for any specific cartridge, less case volume equates to more pressure. Since your components and pistol combination will almost never be the same as the testing apparatus used to develop the published data, it is always best to allow yourself some leeway. Stretching the COL is effectively providing some relief for the pressure.

Once you've become satisfied with the round and are overly familiar with pressure signs, you can work on slowly reducing the COL, should you find a strong reason for doing so.

Personally, all my FMJ and LCN rounds are loaded to 1.14 - 1.15. That COL works in every 9mm that I own.

I think you are saying that I should always for the max OAL? Is that basically it?

fredj338
09-30-2012, 13:06
I think you are saying that I should always for the max OAL? Is that basically it?

YEs, the OAL in most manuals is a tested OAL or minimum. Going below that will increase pressures, loaded longer reduces pressures. So think of a longer OAL as insurance. My point about measuring a factory round is it's a dangerous assumption that it is correct or safe. Load a faster powder, like AA#2 to the top end & then load it at shorter OAL, you are pushing over pressure. Since most powders do NOT build pressure in a linear fashion, there is really no "a little over max". Some powders spike as you go over the top end, some spike badly enough to cause a KB (Clays, TG), so just plugging in a factory OAL can get you into trouble with wrong loads.

PrecisionRifleman
10-01-2012, 19:43
Every since I learned that a lack of a taper crimp was the reason I couldn't get my 10mm rounds to feed reliably in a LWD barrel I've started taper crimping all my calibers. No matter what caliber you use, if you get an aftermarket barrel it will have tighter tolerances requiring you to taper crimp. There really isn't anything to tamper crimping, and it increases feed reliability and you won't have to be concerned with bullet seat back. Taper crimping is the way to go.

unclebob
10-01-2012, 20:55
There really isn't anything to tamper crimping, and it increases feed reliability and you won't have to be concerned with bullet seat back. Taper crimping is the way to go.

Taper crimp has nothing to do with bullet set back in a pistol. If you have bullet set back your sizer die is bad or you donít have it adjusted right.

PrecisionRifleman
10-02-2012, 11:30
I'm talking about set back that van occur when rechambering a carry load multiple times. Crimping helps prevent this although I personally haven't had a problem with that myself. I just rotate the round from the chamber for one that was in the magazine.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

F106 Fan
10-02-2012, 12:07
I'm talking about set back that van occur when rechambering a carry load multiple times. Crimping helps prevent this although I personally haven't had a problem with that myself. I just rotate the round from the chamber for one that was in the magazine.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

If you are crimping a straight wall cartridge hard enough to prevent setback, you are crimping too hard. The crimp should be just enough to close up the case mouth and not hard enough to indent the bullet. Neck tension should hold the bullet.

Plated bullets don't work well when the plating has been damaged by a crimp.

I don't reload carry rounds, I buy them. I try to rotate them but, for what they cost, I don't shoot them very often.

As to my reloads? When they go into the magazine the brass will soon be on the ground. I don't think I have ever rechambered a reload.

Richard

fredj338
10-02-2012, 13:29
I'm talking about set back that van occur when rechambering a carry load multiple times. Crimping helps prevent this although I personally haven't had a problem with that myself. I just rotate the round from the chamber for one that was in the magazine.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

It actually does not. You can NOT taper crimp tight enough to prevent bullet setback. In fact, too ,uch taper crimp can actually reduce neck tenstion & proper neck tension is what prevents setback.

dmit
10-02-2012, 22:58
Is one way any better than the other to seat and crimp with one die or seat with one die and crimp with another?

Taterhead
10-02-2012, 23:01
Is one way any better than the other to seat and crimp with one die or seat with one die and crimp with another?

Seating and crimping in one step can work just fine if setting up the die properly. I have had far better results with seating and crimping in separate steps when using soft plated bullets like Berry's though.

Taterhead
10-02-2012, 23:04
Taper crimp has nothing to do with bullet set back in a pistol. If you have bullet set back your sizer die is bad or you donít have it adjusted right.


That and if you have severly work-hardened brass neck tension can also be compromised. I have observed nickel-plated cases to be susceptible to this.

judgecrater
10-02-2012, 23:18
Is one way any better than the other to seat and crimp with one die or seat with one die and crimp with another?
Most will agree that separate dies are best. This is especially true when roll crimping. If roll crimping and seating is attempted with one die, the crimp is attempting to hold the bullet firm while the seating operation is still moving the bullet. The two simultaneous operations are fighting one another.

judgecrater
10-02-2012, 23:26
For a glock an OAL between 1.125 to 1.135 is ideal.
But new reloaders should use what the book for their load says. Only after you have mastered the book load should you consider altering the formula to find the sweet spot for your individual gun.
An ideal range of OAL for a Glock or any other pistol is fully dependent on the bullet shape. One length that is idea for a roundnose may not feed properly for a truncated cone or some other shape. As for the balance of your post, you are absolutely correct. Far too many reloaders closely follow the bullet weight/powder charge in the manual, then ignore the OAL, which is equally important in maintaining safe pressures.

fredj338
10-03-2012, 11:17
With jacleted bullets, seating & crimping in one step can be done w/ good results. With soft plated or lead, separate steps tends to yield better results. It can be done either way though.

Gpruitt54
10-07-2012, 13:59
YEs, the OAL in most manuals is a tested OAL or minimum. Going below that will increase pressures, loaded longer reduces pressures. So think of a longer OAL as insurance. My point about measuring a factory round is it's a dangerous assumption that it is correct or safe. Load a faster powder, like AA#2 to the top end & then load it at shorter OAL, you are pushing over pressure. Since most powders do NOT build pressure in a linear fashion, there is really no "a little over max". Some powders spike as you go over the top end, some spike badly enough to cause a KB (Clays, TG), so just plugging in a factory OAL can get you into trouble with wrong loads.

what's odd is the OAL provided in the manuals matches one-to-one my factory loads. So, it seems, at least to me the manuals are correct.

I never load above max. If I go beyond the mid point, its at least 2 to 3 10ths of a grain below max (Always). In my manuals, for any given load, the OAL is the same for the minimum to the max load.

So, how much longer should I go? Is there general rule for this adjustment over and above what is listed in the manuals. I am using the Lee (2nd Edition), Hornady (8th edition), and Lyman.

Gpruitt54
10-07-2012, 14:06
An ideal range of OAL for a Glock or any other pistol is fully dependent on the bullet shape. One length that is idea for a roundnose may not feed properly for a truncated cone or some other shape. As for the balance of your post, you are absolutely correct. Far too many reloaders closely follow the bullet weight/powder charge in the manual, then ignore the OAL, which is equally important in maintaining safe pressures.

How is a new reloader supposed to know when not to follow the manuals. I am a new reloader. It seems dangerous for me, or any new reloader to simply start ignoring the published information in the manuals. Try not to confuse those of us who are new to this. Maybe after I have 10 years of reloading experience, I will be in a position to ignore the published tables.

But I am not there yet. If, I may speak for new reloaders.

F106 Fan
10-07-2012, 14:55
How is a new reloader supposed to know when not to follow the manuals. I am a new reloader. It seems dangerous for me, or any new reloader to simply start ignoring the published information in the manuals. Try not to confuse those of us who are new to this. Maybe after I have 10 years of reloading experience, I will be in a position to ignore the published tables.


Bluntly put, you are in the position of having to derive information because you bought components for which, at best, there is only limited data. That pretty much sums it up.

If you bought a manual, bought components to match and assembled to a given OAL, there wouldn't even be a question about the loads.

There is no suggestion that I have read in this thread to ever work outside published data. I certainly don't do it and I would never recommend it.

Richard

Colorado4Wheel
10-07-2012, 15:41
How is a new reloader supposed to know when not to follow the manuals. I am a new reloader. It seems dangerous for me, or any new reloader to simply start ignoring the published information in the manuals. Try not to confuse those of us who are new to this. Maybe after I have 10 years of reloading experience, I will be in a position to ignore the published tables.

But I am not there yet. If, I may speak for new reloaders.

It's not that complicated. Look at the chart below. The right side of the chart is safer, the left side is more dangerous (hint, hint). Big side of the < is safer NOT better.

Heavier Powder Charge < Lighter Powder Charge
Shorter OAL < Longer OAL
Heavier Bullet < Lighter Bullet
Lead < Plated < FMJ/JHP

How does this information help?

So if your moving the variable to the right side of the chart you are moving to safer direction. Not a riskier direction. So a manual will have a OAL of 1.110". If you load to 1.120 you can safely ignore the manuals suggestion for OAL (assuming it fits your barrel and has enough bullet engagement). I always load longer then the manuals OAL. I also always figure out how long I can load that specific bullet in my barrel. And then load it just a little shorter (about .010").

The mistake many reloaders make is they take every variable above and go to the safer side (THE RIGHT ;)). Then they wonder why their reloads don't work right. You want a reasonable amount of pressure to make everything (including your gun) work right.

judgecrater
10-07-2012, 16:24
How is a new reloader supposed to know when not to follow the manuals. I am a new reloader. It seems dangerous for me, or any new reloader to simply start ignoring the published information in the manuals. Try not to confuse those of us who are new to this. Maybe after I have 10 years of reloading experience, I will be in a position to ignore the published tables.

But I am not there yet. If, I may speak for new reloaders.
Sorry if I miss led you. Always follow the manuals.

judgecrater
10-07-2012, 16:26
I missed it too. Don't feel bad.

F106 Fan
10-07-2012, 16:30
It's not that complicated. Look at the chart below. The right side of the chart is safer, the left side is more dangerous (hint, hint). Big side of the > is safer NOT better.

Lighter Powder Charge > Heavier Powder Charge
Longer OAL > Shorter OAL
Lighter Bullet > Heavier Bullet
FMJ/JHP > Plated > Lead

How does this information help?

So if your moving the variable to the right side of the chart you are moving to safer direction. Not a riskier direction. So a manual will have a OAL of 1.110". If you load to 1.120 you can safely ignore the manuals suggestion for OAL (assuming it fits your barrel and has enough bullet engagement). I always load longer then the manuals OAL. I also always figure out how long I can load that specific bullet in my barrel. And then load it just a little shorter (about .010").

The mistake many reloaders make is they take every variable above and go to the safer side (THE RIGHT ;)). Then they wonder why their reloads don't work right. You want a reasonable amount of pressure to make everything (including your gun) work right.

I must be having another senior moment. Moving the powder charge from light to heavy, which is to the right, is not making it safer. In my view...

Richard

Colorado4Wheel
10-07-2012, 16:45
Watching Denver lose is frustrating. Guess I was distracted.

shotgunred
10-07-2012, 20:24
An ideal range of OAL for a Glock or any other pistol is fully dependent on the bullet shape. One length that is idea for a roundnose may not feed properly for a truncated cone or some other shape. As for the balance of your post, you are absolutely correct. Far too many reloaders closely follow the bullet weight/powder charge in the manual, then ignore the OAL, which is equally important in maintaining safe pressures.

Every glock 9mm and 40 bullet I have ever tried (except some 180 simi-wadcutter lead bullets, which would never reliably feed) has loaded fine in that range.

But new loaders should follow published recipes!

Gpruitt54
10-08-2012, 17:30
Sorry if I miss led you. Always follow the manuals.

Hay, thanks. I appreciate all the feedback and advice I get from this forum. For me, it's a valuable resource. I am not pointing fingers, just looking for clarification. We all have points of view that some of us are in a position to take advantage of, and other are not yet ready. Give me a few more years of reloading, I'll get there.

In the meantime, thanks for your input.

Gpruitt54
10-08-2012, 17:35
Watching Denver lose is frustrating. Guess I was distracted.

What the...? LoL!

Gpruitt54
10-08-2012, 17:57
Load 4.0 and see what it does. I think you 3.8 is a little low.

Not sure if I replied to this one, but I increased my powder load to 4.0gn and another set of rounds at 4.3gn. Boy-o-boy that really did the trick. The gun cycles flawlessly, and the accuracy and groupings are better than I could have asked for... fantastic!

Both powder loads were very good, but I think I like the 4.3gn load just a little better. As I look at my load notes, I think I found a load for the 9mm with Accurate #2. I've said it before, the ultra small particles of Accurate #2 seem to fill the Lee Pro Auto Disk opening more consistently than any of the other powders (HP-38 and Unique).

I cannot measure FPS, I don't have the device to measure velocity.