Slide Fire vs. Full-Auto [Archive] - Glock Talk

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chemcmndr
09-18-2012, 19:31
Always wondered how a slide fire compared to an actual full-auto AR. Several months ago, we got the chance to compare the two and I finally got around to getting the video footage together. Man, it was fun to shoot!

http://youtu.be/6a_W3hMOht0

samuse
09-18-2012, 19:37
Nice dirt shooting!:tongueout:

mjkeat
09-18-2012, 19:44
The two are as different as fire and ice.

Bodyarmorguy
09-18-2012, 19:54
Slide Fire and Full Auto......the fastest way to convert money into noise, lol.

Airhasz
09-18-2012, 20:06
The two are as different as fire and ice.

:rofl:

lawman800
09-19-2012, 00:36
My friend has it. It works when you can't get the other one... and about as useful for normal civilian usage.

cowboy1964
09-19-2012, 01:48
I'd get one just for fun if I had a place to shoot it.

Airhasz
09-19-2012, 03:26
Slide Fire and Full Auto......the fastest way to convert money into noise, lol.

Also the most fun one can have converting said money...:steamed:

fuzzy03cls
09-19-2012, 08:05
I'd get one just for fun if I had a place to shoot it.

And after you put a few hundred through it in about 5 minutes, you realize this is a waste of $.

I had one. The way it works is SO different from a real FA or even a regular AR. You can throw out all your skills with a normal AR. It was so unnatural to use.

M&P15T
09-19-2012, 09:00
Slide Fire and Full Auto......the fastest way to convert money into noise, lol.

Absofrigginlutely!!!:rofl::rofl:

I'd love to hear from some actual , real life combat experienced folks that can describe the difference in effectiveness between 3rd burst and FA.

MrMurphy
09-19-2012, 09:11
Never did see combat, but I have no use for 3 round burst. On the M16/M4 specifically because of the way it works, you never know if you're gonna get 1, 2 or 3 rounds per pull, which jacks up the next one as well if you don't get 3. The few times I flipped the switch all the way forward, it annoyed the hell out of me. Mostly did it for force-on-force exercises playing OPFOR or for higher-up dog and pony shows where we were getting rid of ammo in hurry using blanks to make someone with stars happy, like replacing an M249 or M240 (we were out of belted blanks) in the turret and burning through five mags on burst in about 30 or 40 seconds it seemed like while reacting to a 'terrorist attack' which was hilariously funny (since, being a dog and pony show.....we knew exactly where they were going to be).

Full auto is of limited use in a rifle, but if you need it, you need FULL AUTO.....not burst.

99.9% of the time, you're gonna be on semi.

Travclem
09-19-2012, 10:10
Never did see combat, but I have no use for 3 round burst. On the M16/M4 specifically because of the way it works, you never know if you're gonna get 1, 2 or 3 rounds per pull, which jacks up the next one as well if you don't get 3. The few times I flipped the switch all the way forward, it annoyed the hell out of me. Mostly did it for force-on-force exercises playing OPFOR or for higher-up dog and pony shows where we were getting rid of ammo in hurry using blanks to make someone with stars happy, like replacing an M249 or M240 (we were out of belted blanks) in the turret and burning through five mags on burst in about 30 or 40 seconds it seemed like while reacting to a 'terrorist attack' which was hilariously funny (since, being a dog and pony show.....we knew exactly where they were going to be).

Full auto is of limited use in a rifle, but if you need it, you need FULL AUTO.....not burst.

99.9% of the time, you're gonna be on semi.

Well said, I agree. In my experience, SlideFire is garbage, 3 round burst is garbage, and full auto is great for an extremely narrow window of uses. If my rifle has a 3rd position, it's F/A.

mjkeat
09-19-2012, 11:54
Absofrigginlutely!!!:rofl::rofl:

I'd love to hear from some actual , real life combat experienced folks that can describe the difference in effectiveness between 3rd burst and FA.

You already have (see below).

The two are as different as fire and ice.

M&P15T
09-19-2012, 12:04
You already have (see below).

You were discussing slide-fire and actual FA...not FA and 3 round burst.

Guess you were throwing your hat into the "combat experienced" ring then.

mjkeat
09-19-2012, 12:12
You were discussing slide-fire and actual FA...not FA and 3 round burst.

Guess you were throwing your hat into the "combat experienced" ring then.

I think you are confussed. The thread topic is on FA and the slidefire. You asked the difference b/w burst and FA. The same explanation, fire and ice, applies to both.

You need to pay attention.

Why is it that a good portion of those w/ the highest post counts are the ones who should spend more time reading.

M&P15T
09-19-2012, 12:26
I think you are confussed. The thread topic is on FA and the slidefire. You asked the difference b/w burst and FA. The same explanation, fire and ice, applies to both.

You need to pay attention.

Why is it that a good portion of those w/ the highest post counts are the ones who should spend more time reading.

Nice CYA, but you're full of it.

I asked a totally different question, AFTER you had answered another, and then you tried to say that the same answer applies to both.

:rofl::rofl:

mjkeat
09-19-2012, 12:59
Nice CYA, but you're full of it.

I asked a totally different question, AFTER you had answered another, and then you tried to say that the same answer applies to both.

:rofl::rofl:

Absofrigginlutely!!!:rofl::rofl:

I'd love to hear from some actual , real life combat experienced folks that can describe the difference in effectiveness between 3rd burst and FA.

Your question in bold above.

The answer to said question - fire and ice

The same answer does apply to both. If not please explane how it does not.

Is this some sort of act like when girls pretend they are clueless because they feel it'll attract boys?

faawrenchbndr
09-19-2012, 15:11
A $300 slide fire stock vs a 25 cent rubber band? :dunno:

chemcmndr
09-19-2012, 18:12
Yeah, the dirt shooting was because we didn't get very long to play with the RDIAS, and I agree, that they both convert money into noise really fast. Still doesn't mean that I don't want a registered full-auto of my own! I never got around to getting a slide fire myself just because the manual of arms on it is different than a select fire.

As far as the effectiveness between FA and burst; burst is great for those who do not practice enough to develop good trigger control to squeeze off controllable bursts with a FA in stressful situations, although, like it was said earlier, 99.9% of shooting is semi anyway. The only reason I can see to use full-auto in a combat situation is suppressive fire or to break an ambush.

AK_Stick
09-19-2012, 21:18
3 round burst is retarded idea. Absolutely useless.

FA has a niche use. Would much prefer my M-4 to have a full auto setting instead of burst.

NeverMore1701
09-19-2012, 21:31
Who came up with 3rd burst anyway? ****in' retarded.

mjkeat
09-19-2012, 22:09
Men in an office somewhere crunching numbers after paying the ammo bill.

NeverMore1701
09-19-2012, 22:27
Men in an office somewhere crunching numbers after paying the ammo bill.

I assume it went something like this: http://www.htloz.net/forums/images/smilies/awesome/hurr.gif

mjkeat
09-19-2012, 22:39
Yes. Lets get this budget finished, we have plans at the lake this weekend. But the proposal doesn't make any sense. So, remember the lake? I have to try out this new boat. Delay further and you're uninvited.

MrMurphy
09-20-2012, 03:18
If you've seen video from Vietnam where guys are dumping 20 round mags (in "Arab offhand") more or less over their head without aiming except "that way"....you know where 3 round burst came from.

Yet again, the Army tried to mechanically fix what was a training issue, using the burst limiter to keep rounds wasted down instead of training the troops better.

M&P15T
09-20-2012, 07:30
I think you are confussed. The thread topic is on FA and the slidefire. You asked the difference b/w burst and FA. The same explanation, fire and ice, applies to both.

You need to pay attention.

Why is it that a good portion of those w/ the highest post counts are the ones who should spend more time reading.

I'm not confused at all, I just highlighted that you were answering a 2nd question with the same answer you used for the first......

Oh **** it...nevermind.

lawman800
09-20-2012, 08:29
If you've seen video from Vietnam where guys are dumping 20 round mags (in "Arab offhand") more or less over their head without aiming except "that way"....you know where 3 round burst came from.

Yet again, the Army tried to mechanically fix what was a training issue, using the burst limiter to keep rounds wasted down instead of training the troops better.

There was really very little time to fully train what was a reluctant or resistant young man from a small town and tossing him into a totally foreign environment and then hoping for the best in a life or death situation.

Airhasz
09-20-2012, 10:40
There was really very little time to fully train what was a reluctant or resistant young man from a small town and tossing him into a totally foreign environment and then hoping for the best in a life or death situation.

Great statement... Boys drafted into a war nobody wanted...

MrMurphy
09-20-2012, 15:09
In WW2, where we really were effectively fighting for our lives, guys were still trained to control full auto (Thompsons and Grease Guns, BARs) and hit things, not just randomly dump mags.

In Vietnam, with the same draftees, they didn't take the time, and it showed. Of course, in WW2 the draftees were in it 'for the duration', but the initial training time was about the same.

raven11
09-20-2012, 15:56
In WW2, where we really were effectively fighting for our lives, guys were still trained to control full auto (Thompsons and Grease Guns, BARs) and hit things, not just randomly dump mags.

In Vietnam, with the same draftees, they didn't take the time, and it showed. Of course, in WW2 the draftees were in it 'for the duration', but the initial training time was about the same.


I wonder if maybe the proliferation of cameras made sharing everyday images of war easier. who is to say a American soldier clearing a french town after getting pinned down in a building didn't just spray his Thompson around the corner but no one was there to film it

Airhasz
09-20-2012, 15:59
Without pics...it didn't happen...

lawman800
09-20-2012, 19:55
In WW2, where we really were effectively fighting for our lives, guys were still trained to control full auto (Thompsons and Grease Guns, BARs) and hit things, not just randomly dump mags.

In Vietnam, with the same draftees, they didn't take the time, and it showed. Of course, in WW2 the draftees were in it 'for the duration', but the initial training time was about the same.

In WWII, those things were not general issue. Most were still carrying the Garand or M1 Carbine. The full auto guns were issued to select men in the squad who were assigned and trained with the weapons.

It was a little different as compared to just handing out a new plastic rifle to every single recruit and hoping for the best.

MrMurphy
09-20-2012, 20:04
They were also trying out "quick kill" and point shooting.... oh well.

Drew Furst
10-11-2012, 08:32
Having experience with both the M16 trigger group (in) and the SlideFire stock on the Thureon Defense PCC, I think they are more different than they are alike. The Thureon Defense carbine is a little different from an AR-15 because it is a simple blowback design.

Differences – (on the Thureon Defense carbine)
The mechanics of shooting the SlideFire stock is totally different from what we were taught. "Hold the rifle firmly into your shoulder" goes out the window. You only do that with your trigger hand, your off hand is pushing the rifle away from you. It takes some time to become comfortable with that process.

If you push too hard with your off hand it is possible to over drive the system, allowing the hammer to start dropping before the bolt is completely in battery. This is particularly rough on the firing pins, since the hammer is hitting it at an angle instead of square on the end. With the M16 trigger group, the cam surface on the back of the bolt guarantees that the autosear doesn’t get tripped too early.

The rate of fire with the M16 trigger group in the TD carbine is higher than what you will achieve with the SlideFire stock. This, and the way the off arm absorbs a portion of the recoil make the SlideFire stock easier to control.

You can shoot the M16 rifle from a bipod or rested, behind cover. You are pretty well restricted to off-hand shooting with the SlideFire equipped firearm. This is less of a factor with the SMG/PCC like the Thureon.

Cost. SlideFire stock for $370.00 vs. whatever they are getting for pre-ban full auto guns + the $200.00 tax stamp.

Similarities –
They are both a lot of fun to shoot. Everyone who shoots full auto (or bump fire) for the first time has a huge grin on their face when they complete their first mag dump!

They both require an increase in the ammo budget.

It takes practice to master both of them.

At short to medium ranges, the shooter will be able to apply a lot of lead to the target with either system.

Travclem
10-11-2012, 15:12
Having experience with both the M16 trigger group (in) and the SlideFire stock on the Thureon Defense PCC, I think they are more different than they are alike. The Thureon Defense carbine is a little different from an AR-15 because it is a simple blowback design.

Differences – (on the Thureon Defense carbine)
The mechanics of shooting the SlideFire stock is totally different from what we were taught. "Hold the rifle firmly into your shoulder" goes out the window. You only do that with your trigger hand, your off hand is pushing the rifle away from you. It takes some time to become comfortable with that process.

If you push too hard with your off hand it is possible to over drive the system, allowing the hammer to start dropping before the bolt is completely in battery. This is particularly rough on the firing pins, since the hammer is hitting it at an angle instead of square on the end. With the M16 trigger group, the cam surface on the back of the bolt guarantees that the autosear doesn’t get tripped too early.

The rate of fire with the M16 trigger group in the TD carbine is higher than what you will achieve with the SlideFire stock. This, and the way the off arm absorbs a portion of the recoil make the SlideFire stock easier to control.

You can shoot the M16 rifle from a bipod or rested, behind cover. You are pretty well restricted to off-hand shooting with the SlideFire equipped firearm. This is less of a factor with the SMG/PCC like the Thureon.

Cost. SlideFire stock for $370.00 vs. whatever they are getting for pre-ban full auto guns + the $200.00 tax stamp.

Similarities –
They are both a lot of fun to shoot. Everyone who shoots full auto (or bump fire) for the first time has a huge grin on their face when they complete their first mag dump!

They both require an increase in the ammo budget.

It takes practice to master both of them.

At short to medium ranges, the shooter will be able to apply a lot of lead to the target with either system.

Is your TD carbine drilled for an auto sear?

NeverMore1701
10-11-2012, 15:25
Is your TD carbine drilled for an auto sear?

As the maker, I'd imagine at least one is.

Drew Furst
10-11-2012, 18:26
Is your TD carbine drilled for an auto sear?

No, they are not. That is a special designation... gets done on a select few that are going out for LE sales and testing.

I took a friend out and let him shoot one of the select-fire carbines..... then told him that he couldn't buy one. He almost cried! He said that was the cruelest thing he had ever heard! :crying:

Foxtrotx1
10-11-2012, 18:46
No, they are not. That is a special designation... gets done on a select few that are going out for LE sales and testing.

I took a friend out and let him shoot one of the select-fire carbines..... then told him that he couldn't buy one. He almost cried! He said that was the cruelest thing he had ever heard! :crying:

have an SBR version that's full auto? would like to see a video.

CDR_Glock
10-11-2012, 21:19
I had a chance to fire Burst and Full Auto when I was active duty. I found burst mode to be much easier to control and I had better accuracy. Full auto, if you're not careful can end up shooting much higher than you intended at the start.

As for a Slide Fire, it's a simple concept but it is not practical in civilian practice. It's just for recreation. At best, it might be helpful in CQB; but in practice, it's a waste of money/ammo.

uptomyneck
10-11-2012, 21:46
have an SBR version that's full auto? would like to see a video.

I made this vid a few years ago. Betamag dump with an M16A2. Full auto pack installed instead of the burst pack. 7.5" barrel.

Betamag dump M16 7.5" barrel - YouTube

Foxtrotx1
10-11-2012, 22:55
I made this vid a few years ago. Betamag dump with an M16A2. Full auto pack installed instead of the burst pack. 7.5" barrel.

Betamag dump M16 7.5" barrel - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BD1WeWJQObg)

Thanks but I was referring to the TD carbine which is a blow back non AR-15 design. The guy I asked owns the company. :wavey:

Drew Furst
10-11-2012, 23:11
I had a chance to fire Burst and Full Auto when I was active duty. I found burst mode to be much easier to control and I had better accuracy. Full auto, if you're not careful can end up shooting much higher than you intended at the start.

As for a Slide Fire, it's a simple concept but it is not practical in civilian practice. It's just for recreation. At best, it might be helpful in CQB; but in practice, it's a waste of money/ammo.

I want to install a 3 shot burst into one of our carbines. Mostly to improve controllability and reduce the net rate-of-fire. I have the parts.... just need the time to figure out how it all goes together. :whistling:

Drew Furst
10-11-2012, 23:18
Thanks but I was referring to the TD carbine which is a blow back non AR-15 design. The guy I asked owns the company. :wavey:

Here's a link to a YouTube video of FateOfDestinee shooting one of our 9mm SBR carbines. It's pretty cool.

Destinee Goes FULL AUTO - Thureon Defense 9mm #FateofDestinee - YouTube

Rate of fire is incredible, probably too high.

Barrel length is 10.5". Running about 1050 rounds/min. We are using an "AR-estor" to slow things down a little bit.

Let me know what you think.

Drew Furst
10-11-2012, 23:28
BTW, I’m not trying to side-track the thread. It is just that I have experience with both systems on the same platform.... and can give a head-to-head comparison.

Like Foxtrot said, I own a gun business, so you can take that into account when you read my replies.

uptomyneck
10-12-2012, 08:38
Thanks but I was referring to the TD carbine which is a blow back non AR-15 design. The guy I asked owns the company. :wavey:

I kinda thought so. I just wanted to show how controllable full auto fire is.

From the other videos, it looks like the 5.56 I'm shooting has less muzzle rise than the 9mm does.

Drew Furst
10-12-2012, 08:54
I kinda thought so. I just wanted to show how controllable full auto fire is.

From the other videos, it looks like the 5.56 I'm shooting has less muzzle rise than the 9mm does.

You may be right about the muzzle rise. The rate of fire is the primary reason for that. The shooter has a hard time recovering from the recoil of one shot before the next shot goes off.

The second thing is that with a simple blowback system, the bolt / buffer group is heavier. This keeps the bolt shut longer when the cartridge is fired. This means that the mass moving into the shooter's shoulder is heavier, possibly increasing the recoil over a lighter bolt with direct impingement (gas system).

Does that make sense?

mjkeat
10-12-2012, 10:19
Did someone say THUMB-OVER?

uptomyneck
10-12-2012, 10:52
You may be right about the muzzle rise. The rate of fire is the primary reason for that. The shooter has a hard time recovering from the recoil of one shot before the next shot goes off.

The second thing is that with a simple blowback system, the bolt / buffer group is heavier. This keeps the bolt shut longer when the cartridge is fired. This means that the mass moving into the shooter's shoulder is heavier, possibly increasing the recoil over a lighter bolt with direct impingement (gas system).

Does that make sense?

Absolutely. It made sense the first time I shot the Olympic Arms 16" 10mm upper for the AR on full auto. By the time I got my finger off the trigger, the last round hit the top of my backstop.:embarassed: I wasn't expecting that recoil. Now that I know what it does, it's a blast to shoot.

Drew Furst
10-12-2012, 13:36
Absolutely. It made sense the first time I shot the Olympic Arms 16" 10mm upper for the AR on full auto. By the time I got my finger off the trigger, the last round hit the top of my backstop.:embarassed: I wasn't expecting that recoil. Now that I know what it does, it's a blast to shoot.

You better have your stance right, or it'll rock ya back.

We MagnaPorted a .40 S&W barrel, and were amazed at the difference in muzzle climb between one with and one without the porting. I think it is worth the cost to do it on a full-auto carbine.

Drew Furst
10-12-2012, 13:49
As for a Slide Fire,... At best, it might be helpful in CQB; but in practice, it's a waste of money/ammo.

I MOSTLY agree with you. I think that the practical uses of it are limited to CQB situations where it would take the place of a SMG, not a battle rifle.

AK_Stick
10-12-2012, 13:50
I kinda thought so. I just wanted to show how controllable full auto fire is.

From the other videos, it looks like the 5.56 I'm shooting has less muzzle rise than the 9mm does.



Some of this, may also be, because A, you're firing a short barreled rifle, so much of the gas pressure is wasted, and B, because you're a dude.


I have no idea how trained Destinee is, but being a smaller, female shooter, and of how much FA training, she may be part of the reason the TD rifle looks to recoil so much.


Park a 6'2 240 lb dude on the end of that 9mm, who knows how to control F/A and you might just see something different.


Then again, you may not, but something to consider.

RWBlue
10-12-2012, 13:52
Two questions:
1. Can you get the slide fire to work with a 22LR kit?

2. Since only hits count, can you shoot a paper plate with both and see how many shots hit paper?