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Bilbo Bagins
09-20-2012, 08:13
I seem to be carrying pocket guns more and more, and right now I have Ruger LC9 and I will be getting a Kahr CM9 in the near future.

That said anyone know what self defense round is good out of a short 3" barreled 9mm. I like to avoid +p+ and +p because of the wear and tear on those lightweight guns.

hotpig
09-20-2012, 09:16
We are living in the good old days so far as the number and type defensive ammo choices available.

The big three all have suitable options for the pocket pistol.Starting with the first from Winchester the T-Series offers a large window of velocities that it will work under.In other words the 147gr offering will work in your pistols. So will the 124+P, you will not really be losing anything except velocity faster compared to the 147. For the purest the design does not have the color but still retains the sharp talons made famous by the Black Talon.

Federal HST again suitable in all bullet weights. Originally designed to replace their Hi Shock ammo but morphed into the restricted sale Tactical Line descendant of Eldorado's Star Fire that is pretty tough and offers robust expansion.

Speer Gold Dot SB the last of the big three to offer something for the pocket pistol. It retains everything good about the regular GB only tuned to work from SB pistols.

If you try several of these you guns will actually decide what is best for them.

plouffedaddy
09-20-2012, 10:46
Here's some chrono data from my Shield:

Hornady 147gr TAP: average fps-910. ft/lbs energy-270
Federal 124gr HST: average fps-1029. ft/lbs energy-291
Federal 124gr HST +p: average fps-1070. ft/lbs energy-320
Winchester 115gr Ranger: average fps 1020. ft/lbs energy-266

I highly recommend the above poster's website for buying defensive ammo (well all ammo really...). Good prices and service.

M 7
09-20-2012, 12:32
The big three all have suitable options for the pocket pistol.Starting with the first from Winchester the T-Series offers a large window of velocities that it will work under.In other words the 147gr offering will work in your pistols.

hotpig,

Would you happen to know what the lower velocity limit for expansion in the RA9T is?

Kalmah
09-20-2012, 12:50
I seem to be carrying pocket guns more and more, and right now I have Ruger LC9 and I will be getting a Kahr CM9 in the near future.

That said anyone know what self defense round is good out of a short 3" barreled 9mm. I like to avoid +p+ and +p because of the wear and tear on those lightweight guns.
Unless you plan on using it for practice ammo, an occasional diet of +P isn't going to cause any excessive wear and tear on either of those pistols. A few boxes to test reliability, and then a few more rounds downrange a few times a year to burn through old carry ammo so it can be replaced with fresh won't hurt a thing.

I've been using +P like that in my PM9 for years.

FatBoy
09-20-2012, 13:06
I would go w/ Speer short barrel Gold Dot 124+p, if you are adverse to that, try the 147 HST(if you can find it).

hotpig
09-20-2012, 15:27
hotpig,

Would you happen to know what the lower velocity limit for expansion in the RA9T is?

Officially 890fps

SCmasterblaster
09-20-2012, 18:59
Try the CorBon ammo in 9mm +p. Their 115gr load does 1200 FPS in the LC9.

WiskyT
09-20-2012, 19:20
Here is some LC9 chrono data. I use the 147 Ranger T series since it runs in the design velocity and I know it will penetrate.

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1344889

M 7
09-20-2012, 20:53
Officially 890fps


Thanks! :)

SCmasterblaster
09-27-2012, 20:31
pushes a 115gr JHP bullet at 1400 FPS out of my G17. :shocked:

boomhower
09-30-2012, 15:20
pushes a 115gr JHP bullet at 1400 FPS out of my G17. :shocked:

What anything does out of a G17 is completely irrelevant to this thread.

OP: I ended up with 147gr HST for my P938. Being that it will open at the lower velocities with good penetration sealed it for me.

SCmasterblaster
10-01-2012, 09:51
What anything does out of a G17 is completely irrelevant to this thread.

OP: I ended up with 147gr HST for my P938. Being that it will open at the lower velocities with good penetration sealed it for me.

I just offered it as a reference point. It has a 4.5-inch barrel - not the longest or the shortest barrel.

Warp
10-01-2012, 18:10
I really like 124gr +P Speer Gold Dots for my Glock 26. Currently it is loaded with RA9TA and I have also carried RA9T, and Federal HST. Pick one.

I mostly prefer the Gold Dots though

SCmasterblaster
10-01-2012, 18:16
I really like 124gr +P Speer Gold Dots for my Glock 26. Currently it is loaded with RA9TA and I have also carried RA9T, and Federal HST. Pick one.

I mostly prefer the Gold Dots though

I never saw a difference between the 115gr and 124gr loads. I mean, it us only a nine-grain difference - 8%. Now if the debate was between 115gr and 147gr, then there would be grounds for debate - a 32gr difference is far bigger than 9gr.

Warp
10-01-2012, 19:57
I never saw a difference between the 115gr and 124gr loads.

What did you do with them for the comparison?

kaech
10-01-2012, 20:33
What did you do with them for the comparison?

^^he used mathematics... LoLz

SCmasterblaster
10-02-2012, 10:48
What did you do with them for the comparison?

I don't understand your question. I was just saying that there is not much difference between the 115gr and 124gr JHPs - only 9 grains. The velocity difference is likely less than 100 FPS.

Kentguy
10-02-2012, 11:45
Bilbo Bagins,

Lots of good choices mentioned here and all would certainly provide you with more than adequate self protection out of a small(er) pistol.

I carry a 9mm G26 (3.43" barrel) just a bit larger than the ones you mentioned. I have been and still do carry the Hornady 124g XTP HP loads. I have clocked these at 1,058.2 fps, nice round easy to control and over the past few years have practiced enough with this round that I am familiar with it and comfortable carrying it for my EDC round.

Warp
10-02-2012, 15:07
I don't understand your question. I was just saying that there is not much difference between the 115gr and 124gr JHPs - only 9 grains. The velocity difference is likely less than 100 FPS.

Terminal performance isn't measured in grains.

Also, we are talking "short barrels" here. 4.5" barrels need not apply.

SCmasterblaster
10-02-2012, 16:22
Terminal performance isn't measured in grains.

Also, we are talking "short barrels" here. 4.5" barrels need not apply.

Bullet weight certainly does matter. 1/2mass x velocity squared is the formula for kinetic energy. The bullet weight in grains times the velocity equals the power factor.

Warp
10-02-2012, 16:26
Bullet weight certainly does matter. 1/2mass x velocity squared is the formula for kinetic energy. The bullet weight in grains times the velocity equals the power factor.

Terminal performance is not measured in any of those terms.

SCmasterblaster
10-02-2012, 16:30
Terminal performance is not measured in any of those terms.
Indeed. I was just offering established formulas for measuring terminal performance. Now anyone can see that bullet weight is a definite factor in determining bullet terminal performance.

Warp
10-02-2012, 16:35
Indeed. I was just offering established formulas for measuring terminal performance. Now anyone can see that bullet weight is a definite factor in determining bullet terminal performance.

In that case you failed miserably.

Nothing you offered is a measure of terminal performance.

SCmasterblaster
10-02-2012, 16:53
In that case you failed miserably.

Nothing you offered is a measure of terminal performance.

Why must you be so rude? I thought that we were all friends here. Now I fail to see how bullet weight is not a consideration in terminal perforamnce. :dunno:

Warp
10-02-2012, 16:57
Why must you be so rude? I thought that we were all friends here. Now I fail to see how bullet weight is not a consideration in terminal perforamnce. :dunno:

Bullet weight is not a measure of terminal performance.

boomhower
10-02-2012, 17:26
A little correction. Stopped by my local gun shop and no HST's to be found. Ended up with 147gr Gold Dots. Not my first choice but I feel more than comfortable with them. Only good side effect is it's the same brand as my duty round and it will be serving BUG duty.

Warp
10-02-2012, 20:09
A little correction. Stopped by my local gun shop and no HST's to be found. Ended up with 147gr Gold Dots. Not my first choice but I feel more than comfortable with them. Only good side effect is it's the same brand as my duty round and it will be serving BUG duty.

They should serve you well.

SCmasterblaster
10-03-2012, 10:53
Bullet weight is not a measure of terminal performance.

The bullet's weight is one of the determining factors in terminal performance. Sectional density has bullet weight as a factor. :cool:

GIockGuy24
10-03-2012, 14:02
When the velocity drops below the threshold of "reliable" expansion for standard, non-premium jacketed hollow points, which is around 1100 fps, the heavy bullet tend to perform better than the lighter weight bullets. Usually there is lot less muzzle flash and blast from a short barrel with heavy bullet too. Even premium 9mm bullets are usually designed for velocities from a 4 inch barrel. The heavy bullets tend to lose less velocity with shorter barrels and are closer to the design velocities. The lighter weight bullets often lose the advantage of high velocity over heavy bullets they have with longer barrels when fired from short barrels. The other theory, which doesn't seem to hold true often, is the best bullet and bullet weight in a given caliber is still the best when from a shorter barrel. If I'm using ammunition and / or a barrel length where I can't get 1100 fps, I usually prefer a heavy bullet but over 1100 fps, the faster bullets tend to show better performance.

SCmasterblaster
10-04-2012, 10:07
When the velocity drops below the threshold of "reliable" expansion for standard, non-premium jacketed hollow points, which is around 1100 fps, the heavy bullet tend to perform better than the lighter weight bullets. Usually there is lot less muzzle flash and blast from a short barrel with heavy bullet too. Even premium 9mm bullets are usually designed for velocities from a 4 inch barrel. The heavy bullets tend to lose less velocity with shorter barrels and are closer to the design velocities. The lighter weight bullets often lose the advantage of high velocity over heavy bullets they have with longer barrels when fired from short barrels. The other theory, which doesn't seem to hold true often, is the best bullet and bullet weight in a given caliber is still the best when from a shorter barrel. If I'm using ammunition and / or a barrel length where I can't get 1100 fps, I usually prefer a heavy bullet but over 1100 fps, the faster bullets tend to show better performance.

Can a 9mm 147gr JHP be safely driven over 1100FPS?

GIockGuy24
10-04-2012, 14:18
Can a 9mm 147gr JHP be safely driven over 1100FPS?

No, the idea is since the barrel is so short, 1100 fps can't be reached with standard pressure ammunition, that a heavier will preform best. Also the heavier bullets are closer to the design velocities when fired in shorter barrels. Compare the difference of a 115 grain bullet from a 4 inch barrel, a 124 grain bullet from a 4 inch barrel and a 147 grain bullet from a 4 inch barrel. Then look at their velocities from a 3 inch barrel. The 124 grain bullet will usually catch up to the 115 grain in velocity but the 147 grain bullet will lose the least amount of velocity, even though it's still going slower than the lighter weight bullets.

SCmasterblaster
10-05-2012, 10:20
No, the idea is since the barrel is so short, 1100 fps can't be reached with standard pressure ammunition, that a heavier will preform best. Also the heavier bullets are closer to the design velocities when fired in shorter barrels. Compare the difference of a 115 grain bullet from a 4 inch barrel, a 124 grain bullet from a 4 inch barrel and a 147 grain bullet from a 4 inch barrel. Then look at their velocities from a 3 inch barrel. The 124 grain bullet will usually catch up to the 115 grain in velocity but the 147 grain bullet will lose the least amount of velocity, even though it's still going slower than the lighter weight bullets.

I am thinking about switching to 147gr 9x19 G17 for the cold VT winter. :cool:

Warp
10-05-2012, 11:20
I am thinking about switching to 147gr 9x19 G17 for the cold VT winter. :cool:

So what do you consider to be a short barrel?

SCmasterblaster
10-05-2012, 11:45
So what do you consider to be a short barrel?

In cold weather wintertime - the 147gr JHP. It is like doing at least 900FPS muzzle velocity

Warp
10-05-2012, 15:17
In cold weather wintertime - the 147gr JHP. It is like doing at least 900FPS muzzle velocity

What do you consider to be a short barrel?

Tiro Fijo
10-06-2012, 01:35
...Ended up with 147gr Gold Dots. Not my first choice but I feel more than comfortable with them. Only good side effect is it's the same brand as my duty round and it will be serving BUG duty.

They should serve you well.


Before you guys get too smitten with the 147 gr. Gold Dot you might want to take a gander at a thread on another forum by LEO's disparaging the 147 gr. Gold Dot based on street results. It seems as if sometimes we forget that street results always trump shooting gel and water jugs:

http://www.stoppingpower.net/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21922&whichpage=2

WiskyT
10-06-2012, 06:07
Before you guys get too smitten with the 147 gr. Gold Dot you might want to take a gander at a thread on another forum by LEO's disparaging the 147 gr. Gold Dot based on street results. It seems as if sometimes we forget that street results always trump shooting gel and water jugs:

http://www.stoppingpower.net/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21922&whichpage=2

It seems you believe every fantasy posted on an internet forum as long as it fits your preconceived visions.

Here, here is LEO information from me. I am a retired LEO. I have been involved in 65 shoot outs. Real shoot outs, the old West type. I hunted man in every corner of the continent and most of Europe as a specially deputized US Marshal. I was so good that the USMS issued me Marshal Dillon's star form their museum and authorized me to wear it on fugitive man-hunting operations.

I have 73 one-shot stops out of 68 shootings and they all involved 147JHP's. First we used the OSM loads and when I finished my career we finshed with a special 158 JSP GD load developed by Speer to not exceed 800FPS. The reason we used this load is because of the miserable failures with Federal's 9BPPLE. Yes, BPPLE! It had an extra P just so it could outrun the BPLE if it were fired at the same time by the second biggest gun-fighting agency in the world, the feared ISP!! We wanted our bullets to get there first so we would get the credit.

The ISP, like all highway patrol agencies, was involved in 75 shootings of hardened felons a week at that time (it's gone up since then). Everyone knew they were good gunfighters. We wanted to make sure that our expertise was recognized and wanted out bullets to be the ones that the canoe makers would b e pulling out of the stiffs.

All of this is true. We had 145 cops in my unit killed when their 9BPPLE rounds failed before we swtiched to the 158JSPGD round.

Tiro Fijo
10-06-2012, 11:46
,,,Here, here is LEO information from me. I am a retired LEO. I have been involved in 65 shoot outs. Real shoot outs, the old West type. I hunted man in every corner of the continent and most of Europe as a specially deputized US Marshal. I was so good that the USMS issued me Marshal Dillon's star form their museum and authorized me to wear it on fugitive man-hunting operations.

I have 73 one-shot stops out of 68 shootings and they all involved 147JHP's. First we used the OSM loads and when I finished my career we finshed with a special 158 JSP GD load developed by Speer to not exceed 800FPS. The reason we used this load is because of the miserable failures with Federal's 9BPPLE. Yes, BPPLE! It had an extra P just so it could outrun the BPLE if it were fired at the same time by the second biggest gun-fighting agency in the world, the feared ISP!! We wanted our bullets to get there first so we would get the credit.

The ISP, like all highway patrol agencies, was involved in 75 shootings of hardened felons a week at that time (it's gone up since then). Everyone knew they were good gunfighters. We wanted to make sure that our expertise was recognized and wanted out bullets to be the ones that the canoe makers would b e pulling out of the stiffs.

All of this is true. We had 145 cops in my unit killed when their 9BPPLE rounds failed before we swtiched to the 158JSPGD round.


Are you on drugs? :rofl: :animlol:

SCmasterblaster
10-06-2012, 12:08
What do you consider to be a short barrel?

Less than 4-inches, I guess. Most 9mm in history have had at least a 4-inch barrel.

boomhower
10-06-2012, 13:27
Before you guys get too smitten with the 147 gr. Gold Dot you might want to take a gander at a thread on another forum by LEO's disparaging the 147 gr. Gold Dot based on street results. It seems as if sometimes we forget that street results always trump shooting gel and water jugs:

http://www.stoppingpower.net/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21922&whichpage=2

Like I said they aren't my first choice but that link is not very far up ladder from useless. Almost all of them complaining are saying to go up to the heavier caliber, that's hardly helpful. Most of those complaining are just complaining with no actual incidents to back it up. Would I have rather had HST, yep. Would I stick with these out of a 3" barrel over the 124gr? Yep. (I had 147 and 115 to pick from, no way in hell I using 115 out of a 3" barrel.)

WiskyT
10-06-2012, 13:34
Are you on drugs? :rofl: :animlol:

I'm on the same drugs as the posters in your link, and anyone who would consider that link as useful information.

Warp
10-06-2012, 15:11
Less than 4-inches, I guess. Most 9mm in history have had at least a 4-inch barrel.

So what round you do select for your short barrel 9mm?

SCmasterblaster
10-07-2012, 14:06
So what round you do select for your short barrel 9mm?

a short-barreled 9mm. I only have a G17. But in a shorter-barreled 9mm I'd probably use the WW 115gr JHP +p+ that I do in my G17.

GIockGuy24
10-09-2012, 04:05
I've chronographed some 9mm ammunition from different barrel lengths. At the time I had the chronograph I didn't have a pistol with a barrel longer than Glock 19. I did have the Glock 19, Glock 26 and the Springfield XD subcompact. These have barrels of 4.02", 3.46" and 3.0".

I chose ammunition from the same maker, Federal, for consistency. It also all clocked very close to its factory rated velocities in with the Glock 19. The ammunition was standard pressure 115 grains, standard pressure 124 grain, +P 115 grain, +P 124 grain, +P+ 115 grain, +P+ 124 grain and 147 grain JHP bullet loads.

With the Glock 19 all ammunition registered pretty much as rated by Federal for velocity. In the Glock 19,

The standard pressure 115 grain load went faster than the standard pressure 124 grain load.

The +P 115 grain load went faster than the +P 124 grain load.

The +P+ 115 grain load went faster than the +P+ 124 grain load.

With the Glock 26 and with the XD, all of the 124 grain loads equaled their similar pressure 115 grain loads for velocity.

The standard 124 grain load went as fast or faster than the standard pressure 115 grain load in velocity.

The +P 124 grain load went as fast or faster than the +P 115 grain load in velocity.

The 147 grain load lost the least amount of velocity from the shorter barreled pistols compared to the Glock 19 velocities.

The 147 grain load was closest to its factory rated velocity with the shorter barrels even though it had lost some velocity it was not as much loss as the lighter weight bullet load had.

Note the 124 grain loads were very close to matching the 147 grain load difference though. The 115 grain loads lost the most velocity with the shorter barrels and even fell to 124 grain load velocities, only bettering them in velocity with the Glock 19.

I didn't have a longer barreled pistol with the chronograph but I think maybe it's possible the lighter weight bullets would gain more velocity than the heavier bullets with a longer barrel. That may or may not be a good thing. Added velocity usually means more reliable expansion, but also the velocity increase may become higher than the design velocities of some bullets. Possibly causing over expansion and under penetration. I'm not sure another inch of barrel would be a problem though. I think it would usually help.

The 115 grain loads run right where they should with a 4 inch barrel. (as do the other loads) With a shorter barrel, I see no reason to choose the 115 grain bullets as the 124 grain loads are just as fast and closer to the design velocities with a shorter barrel.

The 147 grain loads have the least muzzle blast. That might be a good thing for fending off carjackings or reducing bleeding eardrums indoors. There are some well design 147 bullets available these days.

With a 4 inch or longer barrel, the 115 grain loads should perform as designed. With shorter barrels, the all three 115 grain loads were equaled in velocity by the heavier, same pressure 124 grain loads.

SCmasterblaster
10-09-2012, 07:51
I've chronographed some 9mm ammunition from different barrel lengths. At the time I had the chronograph I didn't have a pistol with a barrel longer than Glock 19. I did have the Glock 19, Glock 26 and the Springfield XD subcompact. These have barrels of 4.02", 3.46" and 3.0".

I chose ammunition from the same maker, Federal, for consistency. It also all clocked very close to its factory rated velocities in with the Glock 19. The ammunition was standard pressure 115 grains, standard pressure 124 grain, +P 115 grain, +P 124 grain, +P+ 115 grain, +P+ 124 grain and 147 grain JHP bullet loads.

With the Glock 19 all ammunition registered pretty much as rated by Federal for velocity. In the Glock 19,

The standard pressure 115 grain load went faster than the standard pressure 124 grain load.

The +P 115 grain load went faster than the +P 124 grain load.

The +P+ 115 grain load went faster than the +P+ 124 grain load.

With the Glock 26 and with the XD, all of the 124 grain loads equaled their similar pressure 115 grain loads for velocity.

The standard 124 grain load went as fast or faster than the standard pressure 115 grain load in velocity.

The +P 124 grain load went as fast or faster than the +P 115 grain load in velocity.

The 147 grain load lost the least amount of velocity from the shorter barreled pistols compared to the Glock 19 velocities.

The 147 grain load was closest to its factory rated velocity with the shorter barrels even though it had lost some velocity it was not as much loss as the lighter weight bullet load had.

Note the 124 grain loads were very close to matching the 147 grain load difference though. The 115 grain loads lost the most velocity with the shorter barrels and even fell to 124 grain load velocities, only bettering them in velocity with the Glock 19.

I didn't have a longer barreled pistol with the chronograph but I think maybe it's possible the lighter weight bullets would gain more velocity than the heavier bullets with a longer barrel. That may or may not be a good thing. Added velocity usually means more reliable expansion, but also the velocity increase may become higher than the design velocities of some bullets. Possibly causing over expansion and under penetration. I'm not sure another inch of barrel would be a problem though. I think it would usually help.

The 115 grain loads run right where they should with a 4 inch barrel. (as do the other loads) With a shorter barrel, I see no reason to choose the 115 grain bullets as the 124 grain loads are just as fast and closer to the design velocities with a shorter barrel.

The 147 grain loads have the least muzzle blast. That might be a good thing for fending off carjackings or reducing bleeding eardrums indoors. There are some well design 147 bullets available these days.

With a 4 inch or longer barrel, the 115 grain loads should perform as designed. With shorter barrels, the all three 115 grain loads were equaled in velocity by the heavier, same pressure 124 grain loads.

Thanks for the good data. :cool: