Morality and Lies

[concretefuzzynuts]

If telling a lie is immoral, are there circumstances where it is not immoral?

For example: Part of police interrogation is telling the person being "interviewed" lies to try to trap them into a confession. Are these lies immoral?

http://policelink.monster.com/training/articles/1911-lying-to-a-suspect-how-far-can-an-investigator-go


I am not anti police. I am posing a question for debate.









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[CAcop]

No, Honey you don't look fat in that.

[JBnTX]

Lying is lying, just as stealing is stealing.
Both are 100% immoral and wrong.

There are no conditions, degrees or requirements to meet.

[RonS]

My opinion is that things can be unethical but necessary. If you are going to do them don't pretend that they are ethical because they are necessary, argue that you put on your big girl panties and did them because they needed doing despite being repugnant. Tends to reduce the slipperiness of the slope.

[concretefuzzynuts]

Lying is lying, just as stealing is stealing.
Both are 100% immoral and wrong.

There are no conditions, degrees or requirements to meet.

This is what a was wondering.

So if your family is home and a gad guy breaks in. You tell your wife and children to hide. The BG puts a gun to your head and asks "is there anyone else in the house?" Do you lie?

[Highspeedlane]

Definitely a grey area. If someone at work got a new 'do and look utterly hideous there's a 99.9% chance I will either say nothing or if asked, find something positive to say about it rather than be bluntly honest.

I see numerous examples of LE using deception and lies in order to solve difficult cases. Sometimes it's a necessary evil.

And of course used car salesmen and politicians live in a world of perpetual "the end justifies the means" deception.

[NeverMore1701]

My opinion is that things can be unethical but necessary. If you are going to do them don't pretend that they are ethical because they are necessary, argue that you put on your big girl panties and did them because they needed doing despite being repugnant. Tends to reduce the slipperiness of the slope.

Well put, IMO.

[JBnTX]

This is what a was wondering.

So if your family is home and a gad guy breaks in. You tell your wife and children to hide. The BG puts a gun to your head and asks "is there anyone else in the house?" Do you lie?


That's not a lie, because you're doing it under duress and have no choice but to protect your family.

A lie would be where you have an equal choice between a lie and the truth, and choose to tell a lie.

..

[concretefuzzynuts]

My opinion is that things can be unethical but necessary. If you are going to do them don't pretend that they are ethical because they are necessary, argue that you put on your big girl panties and did them because they needed doing despite being repugnant. Tends to reduce the slipperiness of the slope.

Excellent post. It is reasonable to then think that if a person in law enforcement can tell a lie to attain an objective. Do the same rules apply to a civilian?

[NeverMore1701]

That's not a lie, because you're doing it under duress and have no choice but to protect your family.

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h49/NeverMore1701/1347713567378.gif

[concretefuzzynuts]

That's not a lie, because you're doing it under duress and have no choice but to protect your family.

A lie would be where you have an equal choice between a lie and the truth, and choose to tell a lie.

..

Lie:

noun
1.
a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.
2.
something intended or serving to convey a false impression; imposture: His flashy car was a lie that deceived no one.
3.
an inaccurate or false statement.
4.
the charge or accusation of lying: He flung the lie back at his accusers.

It is a lie. I think it is an appropriate lie, but still a lie.

[el_jewapo]

That's not a lie, because you're doing it under duress and have no choice but to protect your family.

A lie would be where you have an equal choice between a lie and the truth, and choose to tell a lie.

..

lie/lī/

Noun:
An intentionally false statement.

That is a lie, by definition. It's a moral lie, probably more moral than not making it. But it's still a lie.

[ChuteTheMall]

If it's OK for cops to lie, then it's OK to lie to cops.



"I only had one dink, ossifer"
:drunk:

[Magnus2131]

The end justifies the means, depending on who you are however.:whistling:

[NeverMore1701]

If it's OK for cops to lie, then it's OK to lie to cops.



"I only had one dink, ossifer"
:drunk:

I'm not as think as you drunk I am! :faint:






It never works :crying:

[ChuteTheMall]

Now that I'm suddenly in a swing state, the lying media pollsters suddenly discovered my landline's phone number.

I'm enjoying lying to the pollsters, regarding my demographics and past voting behavior and uncertain intentions.

My last response was as a 29 year old single Asian female professional who voted for Obama in '08 but was currently undecided, leaning towards Romney.
Revenge. :tongueout:

[ray9898]

Depends on the situation, necessary evil in many instances.

[concretefuzzynuts]

Now that I'm suddenly in a swing state, the lying media pollsters suddenly discovered my landline's phone number.

I'm enjoying lying to the pollsters, regarding my demographics and past voting behavior and uncertain intentions.

My last response was as a 29 year old single Asian female professional who voted for Obama in '08 but was currently undecided, leaning towards Romney.
Revenge. :tongueout:

You are a liar!

[hpracing007]

Don't talk to the police, they are not your friends. They'll lie to you, they'll lie in court even.

[concretefuzzynuts]

Along the line of police lying, I am confused.

I know the supreme court found lying "legal" in the case of Frazier v. Cupp, 394 U.S. 731, 1969. But if the case goes to court, and evidence is submitted under the oath of telling "the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth", how can evidence be legal if it was obtained by a lying police officer.

It might be upheld by the SCOTUS but is it moral?

Again, I am not anti-police, just posing a debatable question.

[syntaxerrorsix]

Lying is lying, just as stealing is stealing.
Both are 100% immoral and wrong.

There are no conditions, degrees or requirements to meet.


You mean like if a progressive pretends to be a conservative on an internet gun forum?

[hpracing007]

Everyone's morals are different. If they are doing it to raise revenue, then no. Not moral. If they are genuinely trying to protect and serve (which a member on here says that's not the cops job), then maybe it is.

[JBnTX]

You mean like if a progressive pretends to be a conservative on an internet gun forum?


Or a Ron Paul supporter can't seem to get over the fact that Ron Paul is a loser?

[syntaxerrorsix]

Or a Ron Paul supporter can't seem to get over the fact that Ron Paul is a loser?


I don't believe that falls under the previously posted definitions.

Say the progressive bumped his head so hard he didn't realize what he was saying was party line progressive sentiments?

[syntaxerrorsix]

I mean he's not lying then because he doesn't know any better.

[jp3975]

Lying is lying, just as stealing is stealing.
Both are 100% immoral and wrong.

There are no conditions, degrees or requirements to meet.

If a teenage girl was ugly as sin, and asked you if she was ugly, youd say yes?

If new parents proclaim "isnt our child the cutest baby you've ever seen" when its the ugliest baby you've ever seen, do you say "I cannot tell a lie"?

Ive had both of those. I dont feel immoral not hurting their feelings.

[concretefuzzynuts]

Easy boys. There's no tape measure here. I pose a question of debate that can stay non-political. Please.

I'm so sick of politics right now I just want to escape it here.

[syntaxerrorsix]

With that we can conclude that the injured or ignorant can't be held liable for a lie when they consider it to be a truth. There has to be intent. So it'snot as black and white as you profess.

[concretefuzzynuts]

Nobody want to touch Frazier v. Cupp, 394 U.S. 731, 1969.?

[ray9898]

Nobody want to touch Frazier v. Cupp, 394 U.S. 731, 1969.?

What is there to tackle?

Simplified, the case involved two guys who were suspects in a murder after a female who left with them from a bar was found dead. Both were picked up, one who initially denied any involvement made a confession after falsely being told his partner had confessed earlier and implicated him. He appealed and the courts said a deceptive interrogation is not sufficient grounds to classify a confession involuntary and inadmissible since there was no coercion. They fed him some BS and he freely gave his account.

[concretefuzzynuts]

I don't make it a practice of lying or breaking my word. If it came down to saving my life, my families life, hell even your life, it would be difficult not to.

Does anyone disagree?

[syntaxerrorsix]

Not I.

[concretefuzzynuts]

What is there to tackle?

The case was two guys were suspects in a murder after a female who left with them from a bar was killed. Both were picked up, one who initially denied any involvement made a confession after falsely being told his partner had confessed and implicated him. He appealed and the courts said a deceptive interrogation is not sufficient ground to make a confession involuntary and inadmissible since there was no coercion.

This is part of the thread. When it is okay to lie.

I think this is a just lie. But is the lie immoral?

[ray9898]

I don't make it a practice of lying or breaking my word. If it came down to saving my life, my families life, hell even your life, it would be difficult not to.

Does anyone disagree?

Nope....as mention earlier it really depends on the intentions.

[concretefuzzynuts]

Nope....as mention earlier it really depends on the intentions.

Very good answer. So saving one's own life, their families life or an innocent strangers life is more moral than not telling a lie?

[Sam Spade]

Well, this seems fortuitous...in a now-locked thread, I called BS on the OP and labelled him a liar based on contradictory posts he made. Had I been half as smart as I think I am, I would have recognized one of his posts as nothing more than a debate tactic, a playing of Devil's Advocate. The thread was locked before ConcreteFuzz could make my error known, and people are left with the incorrect impression I created. I regret my misunderstanding and my words and apologize for them.

As to lying in general...motive matters. In fact, it's central.

Lying for personal gain is immoral, unethical and usually a sign of cowardice. Lying as a social lubricant or as a strategy against a greater wrong is not the same thing. It still has to be carefully controlled so that it doesn't become a habit or an easy choice.

[Magnus2131]

Carefully control our lies?

[syntaxerrorsix]

Well, this seems fortuitous...in a now-locked thread, I called BS on the OP and labelled him a liar based on contradictory posts he made. Had I been half as smart as I think I am, I would have recognized one of his posts as nothing more than a debate tactic, a playing of Devil's Advocate. The thread was locked before ConcreteFuzz could make my error known, and people are left with the incorrect impression I created. I regret my misunderstanding and my words and apologize for them.

As to lying in general...motive matters. In fact, it's central.

Lying for personal gain is immoral, unethical and usually a sign of cowardice. Lying as a social lubricant or as a strategy against a greater wrong is not the same thing. It still has to be carefully controlled so that it doesn't become a habit or an easy choice.

Sam I think most have a solid impression of where you stand despite any misspoken words.

I agree, intent is pivotal to the moral dilemma.

[concretefuzzynuts]

Well, this seems fortuitous...in a now-locked thread, I called BS on the OP and labelled him a liar based on contradictory posts he made. Had I been half as smart as I think I am, I would have recognized one of his posts as nothing more than a debate tactic, a playing of Devil's Advocate. The thread was locked before ConcreteFuzz could make my error known, and people are left with the incorrect impression I created. I regret my misunderstanding and my words and apologize for them.

As to lying in general...motive matters. In fact, it's central.

Lying for personal gain is immoral, unethical and usually a sign of cowardice. Lying as a social lubricant or as a strategy against a greater wrong is not the same thing. It still has to be carefully controlled so that it doesn't become a habit or an easy choice.

Thank you friend. I mean no harm in my posts but enjoy a good (or bad) debate. You are as I always thought , a true gentleman.

My question is still out there for any others. The morality of a lie given any circumstance.

[Sam Spade]

Carefully control our lies?

Yes. I make no bones about it--I've lied to suspects, most frequently the "No, I'm not a cop" flavor. And I will again. But those lies are preplanned, conscious decisions. I know what I'm going to say, what I want to accomplish and why. I'm in control of the decision, I own it.

[concretefuzzynuts]

So, our debate can't end here. What if a concealed carry decides to carry where there is a clearly posted sign? Not a state or fed law? Is this dishonest?

What if the carry person bought a movie ticket, and on the back of the movie or concert ticket it says he/she cannot carry? Is this a lie if he/she carry's anyway?

[RonS]

Once you start logic chopping it is all debate club lawyering which negates all meaning from the discussion in the interest of making "points".

Moral people don't lie except to prevent or mitigate harm to others.

Immoral people lie for their own gain or convenience or to hurt others.

[el_jewapo]

If we talk about this from a religious stand point, the commandment from the 10 commandments doesn't say "Thou shalt not lie". It says "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor." Which I would boil down to meaning don't tell a lie that causes harm to someone.

[Sam Spade]

So, our debate can't end here. What if a concealed carry decides to carry where there is a clearly posted sign? Not a state or fed law? Is this dishonest?

What if the carry person bought a movie ticket, and on the back of the movie or concert ticket it says he/she cannot carry? Is this a lie if he/she carry's anyway?

I might not call it "dishonest", since there's no spoken or written pledge he made. I would call it disrespectful, since our pistol guy is placing his preference over that of the property owner. In the hierarchy of things, I rate property owners higher on the food chain than those who choose to visit them.

[el_jewapo]

Moral people don't lie except to prevent or mitigate harm to others.

Immoral people lie for their own gain or convenience or to hurt others.

I believe that's pretty much all that needs to be said on this subject.

[concretefuzzynuts]

If we talk about this from a religious stand point, the commandment from the 10 commandments doesn't say "Thou shalt not lie". It says "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor." Which I would boil down to meaning don't tell a lie that causes harm to someone.


Since you brought religion into this, and not to start a political/religious debate. But Islamic teachings instruct muslims to lie to infidels. I feel the Islamic teachings are not for me, but some religions, cult believe lying is ok. See:

http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090612100657AAeyQZ1

However the Jewish religion has views where some lies are ok too. See:

http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/hf_LyingPermissible.html

I am not advocating any religious belief. I am pointing out differing views in the spirit of debate. (I feel like an infomercial giving a disclaimer, but it is necessary today)

[el_jewapo]

Since you brought religion into this, and not to start a political/religious debate. But Islamic teachings instruct muslims to lie to infidels. I feel the Islamic teachings are not for me, but some religions, cult believe lying is ok. See:

http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090612100657AAeyQZ1

However the Jewish religion has views where some lies are ok too. See:

http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/hf_LyingPermissible.html

I am not advocating any religious belief. I am pointing out differing views in the spirit of debate. (I feel like an infomercial giving a disclaimer, but it is necessary today)

Yeah, I didn't want to make it a religious discussion. I just believe a post or two were centered in religious beliefs based on other posts I've seen around in various threads.

[9jeeps]

To lie is to die of the soul
To have tact is a rightful act.

[fastbolt]

If telling a lie is immoral, are there circumstances where it is not immoral?

For example: Part of police interrogation is telling the person being "interviewed" lies to try to trap them into a confession. Are these lies immoral?

http://policelink.monster.com/training/articles/1911-lying-to-a-suspect-how-far-can-an-investigator-go

I am not anti police. I am posing a question for debate..



Seems as though someone wants to dive into that old Morals versus Ethics debate. You know, the old conundrum of trying to live according to one's moral beliefs but also adhere to an accepted set of ethics (or principles) at the same time? Some folks seem inclined to make it harder on themselves than others.

You can even expand upon it and drag not only society's creation and acceptance of a set of principles by which members ought to conduct themselves, but you can inject religious beliefs into the fray, as well.

Might as well argue amoral versus immoral while you're at it. ;)

Anyway, the courts and the people have spoken to this issue as it regards law enforcement numerous times.

Doesn't mean the subject still won't provide hours and hours of debate among anywhere from those folks of narrow-minded perspectives, to thought-provoking questions to puzzle and stymie open-minded and impressionable college philosophy students, though. ;)

Just my thoughts.

[DanaT]

"I only had one dink, ossifer"
:drunk:

This is technically quite possible to do and yet not lie.

Try a one liter glass of Starkbeir and then ask a cop if you are legal to drive.... I suspect most men will be over the limit.

[DanaT]

As to lying in general...motive matters. In fact, it's central.


I agree with this statement.

[Ay Dios Mio]

Anyone remember Schindler's List?

The line of men in front of the commandant who wants to know who stole a chicken. He's going to shoot every one of them in order to punish the thief, then just shoots a random prisoner who falls out of line and then asks does anyone know who stole the chicken?

A young boy says he knows who the chicken thief is.

The commander asks who it is and the young boy points to the dead man who was just shot.

Brilliant.

[DanaT]

The commander asks who it is and the young boy points to the dead man who was just shot.



Why did he rat out the chicken thief?

[Bruce M]

...

Moral people don't lie except to prevent or mitigate harm to others.

Immoral people lie for their own gain or convenience or to hurt others.

:agree:

[Ay Dios Mio]

Why did he rat out the chicken thief?


To save the lives of himself and the other men in the lineup. :faint:

[concretefuzzynuts]

A classic example of a moral lie.

[Halojumper]

If telling a lie is immoral, are there circumstances where it is not immoral?

For example: Part of police interrogation is telling the person being "interviewed" lies to try to trap them into a confession. Are these lies immoral?

http://policelink.monster.com/training/articles/1911-lying-to-a-suspect-how-far-can-an-investigator-go


I am not anti police. I am posing a question for debate.









.

While this doesn't get into the actual debate, I took the Reid course that they mentioned in the article just last week. It was actually extremely interesting (no, I am not a cop).

[Officer X]

So, per GNG rules...

If I lie to a bad guy to make him think I have other information about a crime he committed, and that lie gets him to tell the truth so I can solve a crime committed against an innocent person...I'm the immoral one???

[concretefuzzynuts]

So, per GNG rules...

If I lie to a bad guy to make him think I have other information about a crime he committed, and that lie gets him to tell the truth so I can solve a crime committed against an innocent person...I'm the immoral one???

That's not what the thread is about. It is about the fact that some lies can be moral. Yours would be a moral one due to the circumstances. A lie to save a life is moral.

I am not anti-police. I posed a subject of debate.

[syntaxerrorsix]

So, per GNG rules...

If I lie to a bad guy to make him think I have other information about a crime he committed, and that lie gets him to tell the truth so I can solve a crime committed against an innocent person...I'm the immoral one???

Didn't read the thread did you?

[ICARRY2]

A lie would be where you have an equal choice between a lie and the truth, and choose to tell a lie.


I think this pretty much sums it up.

[syntaxerrorsix]

I think this pretty much sums it up.


You have a choice, tell a lie to save an innocent life or tell the truth and watch them die.

How's the sum now?

[Halojumper]

You have a choice, tell a lie to save an innocent life or tell the truth and watch them die.

How's the sum now?

Sounds like a good trade off to me!

[syntaxerrorsix]

Sounds like a good trade off to me!

Me too :wavey:

[Lampshade]

That's not a lie, because you're doing it under duress and have no choice but to protect your family.

A lie would be where you have an equal choice between a lie and the truth, and choose to tell a lie.

..

Lol, so we're just redefining words now?

If you deny anyone is in the house, you are lying. It is justifiable to do so, but it is still a lie.

[dixietoo]

I am not a LEO so I can only come from the sivvie side of this. Were I accused of some crime or wrongdoing that I didn't think I did, during interrogation I would not believe any of the j*** the cop dished out. Were I to be guilty I would still not believe them. The point of an interrogation is to collect facts-if coercion to confess starts happening then its turned into a fishing expedition and the less I say the better. "Yessir/mamm, Nosir/mamm"
I know and believe most cops are good and May God Bless Them All, but there are some bad ones who only have fun when they ****** up someone's day.

[SC Tiger]

This is what a was wondering.

So if your family is home and a gad guy breaks in. You tell your wife and children to hide. The BG puts a gun to your head and asks "is there anyone else in the house?" Do you lie?

If that happens your tactics suck. Get to Front Sight, Gunsite, or Thunder Ranch quick! :tongueout::tongueout:

Technically that is a lie, but that's a pretty big "mitigating circumstance" there.

[Woofie]

That's not a lie, because you're doing it under duress and have no choice but to protect your family.

A lie would be where you have an equal choice between a lie and the truth, and choose to tell a lie.

..

Lying is lying, just as stealing is stealing.
Both are 100% immoral and wrong.

There are no conditions, degrees or requirements to meet.

:upeyes:

[Woofie]

If a teenage girl was ugly as sin, and asked you if she was ugly, youd say yes?

If new parents proclaim "isnt our child the cutest baby you've ever seen" when its the ugliest baby you've ever seen, do you say "I cannot tell a lie"?

Ive had both of those. I dont feel immoral not hurting their feelings.

He might be one of those goobers who thinks it's wrong to let your kids believe in Santa.