What would you do with these rounds? Pics! [Archive] - Glock Talk

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quichedem
09-24-2012, 19:09
A family member gave me a couple hundred rounds of OLD .223. That's great, but much of it is corroded. There is a varying degree of corrosion on the rounds, which you can see here:
http://imageshack.us/a/img109/9391/hollowgroup.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img193/7770/corr5.jpg
There are also some soft point rounds that the lead has corroded pretty badly:
http://imageshack.us/a/img21/3654/softpointgroup3.jpg
I also got some hollow points, which seem to have survived the best:
http://imageshack.us/a/img837/535/hollowupclose.jpg
Some of the rounds are Norma, and I don't recognize the other type:
http://imageshack.us/a/img801/1268/556blankhead.jpg
Here is a little more detail of some of the case corrosion:
http://imageshack.us/a/img39/5240/corr1.jpg
I'm not really planning on shooting most of these rounds, but I definitely can't bring myself to throw them away. There are many salvageable rounds with little/no corrosion, and very few have corroded primers(obviously not shooting). I ask the forum for ideas on what to do with these rounds. I have more pics if these aren't enough for a good decision. Thanks in advance!

cadillacguns
09-25-2012, 05:50
Whipe the Verdigo from the lead tips and shoot it.

FLIPPER 348
09-25-2012, 07:58
shoot it all

bruzer
09-25-2012, 08:32
Send them to me, I'll wipe them down, shoot them and if you want send the brass back to you. Problem solved.
Good luck and stay safe,
Mike

tango44
09-25-2012, 09:35
Shoot it all, I just put those on the tumbles for about 10 mins and no problems at all!

JW1178
09-25-2012, 13:50
The worse thing that can happen with old ammo (considering it was manufactured right) is it won't fire when you pull the trigger.

quichedem
09-25-2012, 14:27
It seems like the consensus is to hang onto it and shoot it. I guess I'll rig up a tumbler next weekend. Thanks for the replies!

plasticslap
09-27-2012, 11:19
Shoot it. +1 on the quick tumble to remove that crud.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

SCmasterblaster
09-27-2012, 18:14
Shoot them. That will get the crud off!

ca survivor
09-28-2012, 12:00
Shoot it all, I just put those on the tumbles for about 10 mins and no problems at all!

DO NOT put live ammo in a tumbler.....

SCmasterblaster
09-28-2012, 12:07
DO NOT put live ammo in a tumbler.....

SO TRUE. The propellant would be altered greatly via vibration. There's now way that I would shoot tumbled ammunition.

dkf
09-28-2012, 12:44
DO NOT put live ammo in a tumbler.....

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

How do you think the ammo companies get your ammo so shiney.

Glockbuster
09-28-2012, 12:48
:rofl::rofl::rofl:

How do you think the ammo companies get your ammo so shiney.

DO NOT put old rifle ammo in a tumbler!!!!!!

SCmasterblaster
09-28-2012, 16:37
:rofl::rofl::rofl:

How do you think the ammo companies get your ammo so shiney.

The clean the brass shiny BEFORE loading it.

dkf
09-28-2012, 17:51
The clean the brass shiny BEFORE loading it.

And they get the marks off the brass and bullets from the reloading process how? They tumble it after it is loaded.


SO TRUE. The propellant would be altered greatly via vibration. There's now way that I would shoot tumbled ammunition.Yeah I'm sure the military makes sure to only ship their ammo in special low vibration trucks, ships, choppers and airplanes as to not disturb the powder. The troops walk extra soft to make sure not to shake their ammo. I'm sure the UPS truck that is hauling the ammo I ordered earlier in the week does not vibrate at all during the couple thousand mile trip. Five or ten minutes a vibratory tumbler is not going hurt anything.

Ain't the internet grand.:faint:

Glockbuster
09-28-2012, 20:28
And they get the marks off the brass and bullets from the reloading process how? They tumble it after it is loaded.

Yeah I'm sure the military makes sure to only ship their ammo in special low vibration trucks, ships, choppers and airplanes as to not disturb the powder. The troops walk extra soft to make sure not to shake their ammo. I'm sure the UPS truck that is hauling the ammo I ordered earlier in the week does not vibrate at all during the couple thousand mile trip. Five or ten minutes a vibratory tumbler is not going hurt anything.

Ain't the internet grand.:faint:


You are providing internet advice which is against specific warnings of powder manufacturers.
Tumble vibration is different than the other vibrations you are comparing to, much higher in frequency. It is known--or at least it is what the powder manufacturers say--that tumble vibration alters burning properties of powder, usually increasing burning rate. As most rifle powders are slow burning, rifle ammo is especially susceptible to this.

I say again, DO NOT tumble rifle ammunition.

dkf
09-28-2012, 20:37
I am aware of powder companies positions. If I was a powder manufacturer I would recommend against any tumbling also. Promoting it does nothing but open them up to liability if they say it ok. Any old idiot can claim the tumbler caused their issue and file a BS lawsuit.(even though their double charge was to blame) The powder company will probably settle to avoid even more money layout to fight it in court. Their lawyer advised them on that.

I have seen enough actual tests of loaded rounds in a vibratory tumbler for days and some left even weeks and they came out fine and the powder was as new. This is right along with the "You can't shoot lead in a Glock barrel" warnings the internet experts always spread around. Glock does not recommend it so it must be true.

So how many KBs have you had that was definitavly caused by vibratory tumbling ammunition for say 10 minutes?

Glockbuster
09-28-2012, 20:47
I know it is a much debated issue among gurus. I know ammo companies position on this and powder companies too.
Personally, I think it does not matter much for short periods of time if the powder is already fast burning or in generally good condition. But those old rifle rounds look real old and beaten. I have fired quite a few of similar looking with no issues and no tumbling except for a foul ammonia odor after firing, which is not present on newer rounds, and maybe slightly greater pressure felt. So why bother with the risk ? if the powder is indeed really old, then some of the warnings may become reality with it breaking down easier.

Warp
09-28-2012, 20:50
I can't imagine a problem with tumbling live ammo.

dkf
09-28-2012, 20:54
I guess it all depends what gun you want to shoot them in. I would just throw the bad ones in the tumbler to knock the loose corrosion off and done with it. Personal preference I guess. I would bet those rounds have been bounced around plenty in their life. If anyone can break it a shipping company can.:faint:

SCmasterblaster
09-29-2012, 08:42
I guess it all depends what gun you want to shoot them in. I would just throw the bad ones in the tumbler to knock the loose corrosion off and done with it. Personal preference I guess. I would bet those rounds have been bounced around plenty in their life. If anyone can break it a shipping company can.:faint:

I say again that tumbling the live rounds will very likely break apart the propellant granules and thereby greatly increase the pressure. If you must clean the brass, just use Brasso and a rag on each one. :cool:

kf4zra
09-29-2012, 09:16
I say again that tumbling the live rounds will very likely break apart the propellant granules and thereby greatly increase the pressure. If you must clean the brass, just use Brasso and a rag on each one. :cool:

the brasso after it has been on the brass for an extended time makes the brass more brittle due to the ammonia. If you are going to shoot right away and not reload, its not an issue

i have tumbled and shot thousands of old rifle rounds from the 20's thru the 70's and never had a problem,

worked for a gun shop for a while and the surplus ammo that came in that had surface rust or discoloration was given to me. tumbled it for a half hour and blasted it.
762x54r, .303 brit, and 8mm mauser were the main calibers.
shot it in enfields, mausers, mosins, svt-40, hakim, FN49, and i converted my 1919 to 8mm.

I have dumped the powder before and after tumbling and cant tell any difference. the little rods of powder (like small pencil leads from a mechanical pencil) in the 54r and 8mm were still in tact and the cordite strands in the .303 was still solid. They shot the same, the same stinky/acrid smoke of the commie/fascist ammo was there and the same ash from the 303 was there.

see above argument regarding low vibration trucks, etc

SCmasterblaster
09-29-2012, 09:48
the brasso after it has been on the brass for an extended time makes the brass more brittle due to the ammonia. If you are going to shoot right away and not reload, its not an issue

i have tumbled and shot thousands of old rifle rounds from the 20's thru the 70's and never had a problem,

worked for a gun shop for a while and the surplus ammo that came in that had surface rust or discoloration was given to me. tumbled it for a half hour and blasted it.
762x54r, .303 brit, and 8mm mauser were the main calibers.
shot it in enfields, mausers, mosins, svt-40, hakim, FN49, and i converted my 1919 to 8mm.

I have dumped the powder before and after tumbling and cant tell any difference. the little rods of powder (like small pencil leads from a mechanical pencil) in the 54r and 8mm were still in tact and the cordite strands in the .303 was still solid. They shot the same, the same stinky/acrid smoke of the commie/fascist ammo was there and the same ash from the 303 was there.

see above argument regarding low vibration trucks, etc

Thanks, I forgot about the ammonia problem with brass. :cool:

VinnieD
09-29-2012, 12:45
Those look extremely dangerous. You shouldn't even have them in your home in fact. Fortunately I happen to run a disposal service. For you my friend I'll waive the normal charge, just this once. Just ship them to me and I'll properly dispose of them.

fredj338
09-29-2012, 13:37
I've never been a big fan of tumbling live ammo, but a piece of steel wool & some time in front of the tube, go shooting. Just toss any rounds that show pitting in the cases, they may be structural unsound.
BTW, BRasso should NEVER be used on ammo or cases used for reloading.

WinterWizard
09-29-2012, 14:43
Three steps >>> 1. Steel wool. 2. Shoot. 3. Throw away any that won't fire.

shotgunred
09-30-2012, 09:09
SO TRUE. The propellant would be altered greatly via vibration. There's now way that I would shoot tumbled ammunition.

You are making a bold statement about something you don't have a clue on.:faint:
You do every time you shoot factory ammo! It is the last step before packaging.

glock2740
09-30-2012, 09:16
Put them in the washing maching , but when you put go to put them in the dryer, use the low heat setting and use a sheet of Bounce. :tongueout:

:rofl:

SCmasterblaster
10-01-2012, 09:55
You are making a bold statement about something you don't have a clue on.:faint:
You do every time you shoot factory ammo! It is the last step before packaging.

I recall it from a warning years ago by CCI-Speer. :cool:

quichedem
10-01-2012, 16:18
Alright. I haven't checked this thread for a couple of days. I was close by a Harbor Freight today, so I stopped in to try to get some items to make my own tumbler. Much to my surprise, they actually had rotary rock polishers/tumblers. So I picked one up, along with some crushed walnut birdcage bedding from the pet store as my media. I tumbled the rounds for about 10-15 minutes without incident.
As I stated before, I really don't plan on shooting these in my AR. I might see if some family members want to try shooting them. As far as some scenario like "I pull them out of the tumbler and they start going off," I'm not concerned with that. I'd be more concerned with the rounds hurting me if I threw them in a campfire-in which case they still wouldn't be lethal. If you don't believe that check this mythbusters clip:
Mythbusters - Bullets Thrown Onto Campfire - Are They Lethal? - YouTube
I also agree with the fact that the bullets see more vibration in transit before they reach your magazine than a 1rev/2sec tumbler will provide. I feel it's just common sense. That's my mechanical engineer's opinion.

SCmasterblaster
10-01-2012, 16:25
I have always loved the Mythbusters. :supergrin: And like most Hollywood types, they call CARTRIDGES "bullets" UGH

quichedem
10-01-2012, 16:52
It's one thing when folks speak up if they feel like there is a genuine safety concern. It's another thing when folks spout off some old wive's tale that they can't make a good case for. I feel I've gotten a good bit of the latter on this thread.

Glockbuster
10-01-2012, 17:21
It's one thing when folks speak up if they feel like there is a genuine safety concern. It's another thing when folks spout off some old wive's tale that they can't make a good case for. I feel I've gotten a good bit of the latter on this thread.

You should take your complaint to the ammo manufacturers and the powder manufacturers. Those of us with the old wive´s tales are simply stating in the thread what they have advised, which is the responsible thing. If you choose to go against that you do so at your own risk. Many viewers don´t post and just read. We want them to know the truth.

Funny how some posters get the blame for stating something they did not invent. If you need proof or are not aware of those companies´position on tumbling, let me know.

SCmasterblaster
10-01-2012, 17:30
It's one thing when folks speak up if they feel like there is a genuine safety concern. It's another thing when folks spout off some old wive's tale that they can't make a good case for. I feel I've gotten a good bit of the latter on this thread.

I noticed that you live in NOLA. Is it really the murder capital? I thought that Detroit was.

Warp
10-01-2012, 17:51
I have always loved the Mythbusters. :supergrin: And like most Hollywood types, they call CARTRIDGES "bullets" UGH

Mythbusters does a good job, and the disprove Hollywood gun myths all the time

SCmasterblaster
10-01-2012, 18:11
I've never been a big fan of tumbling live ammo, but a piece of steel wool & some time in front of the tube, go shooting. Just toss any rounds that show pitting in the cases, they may be structural unsound.
BTW, BRasso should NEVER be used on ammo or cases used for reloading.

I forgot about steel wool. Good idea! :cool:

quichedem
10-01-2012, 18:41
You should take your complaint to the ammo manufacturers and the powder manufacturers. Those of us with the old wive´s tales are simply stating in the thread what they have advised, which is the responsible thing. If you choose to go against that you do so at your own risk. Many viewers don´t post and just read. We want them to know the truth.

Funny how some posters get the blame for stating something they did not invent. If you need proof or are not aware of those companies´position on tumbling, let me know.

This is a fair statement. I do feel that there are many people who use very diverse techniques/setups for their tumbling. A blanket statement is fair to make. My method I'm describing is not aggressive, thus the reason I'm not too concerned with it.

quichedem
10-01-2012, 18:42
I noticed that you live in NOLA. Is it really the murder capital? I thought that Detroit was.

It probably was when I set it to say that. It's been there for a loooooooong time. I'll get around to changing it one day.

SCmasterblaster
10-02-2012, 10:39
but if I ever do go there, I'll take my G17 for sure! :cool:

quichedem
10-02-2012, 17:29
but if I ever do go there, I'll take my G17 for sure! :cool:

You'd better. NOLA might be beat for the U.S. murder capital by Detroit, but they do have RoboCop!

JackMac
10-02-2012, 18:19
not smart to tumble live ammo. suggest using fine steel wool and lightly wipe the projectile and cartridge. next step is to shoot it and have fun doing so. be safe.

ilgunguygt
10-03-2012, 00:08
SO TRUE. The propellant would be altered greatly via vibration. There's now way that I would shoot tumbled ammunition.
Thats been proven false in independent testing multiple times.

ilgunguygt
10-03-2012, 00:14
I say again that tumbling the live rounds will very likely break apart the propellant granules and thereby greatly increase the pressure. If you must clean the brass, just use Brasso and a rag on each one. :cool:
Nope, you would be wrong.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=498890

These guys tumbled loaded ammo for 48 hours. They then broke down some ammo and took high def pics, no powder degradation at all! They then chronographed, all numbers were within the normal spread.

quichedem
10-03-2012, 09:31
I think it's safe to say that there really is no definitive answer for the "can you tumble ammo" question. It seems way too subjective, based on the many combinations of different techniques and machinery that many people use.
I can personally testify to the fact that I tumbled various brands of ammunition in .223 and 5.56 completely without incident. For those who are interested in what I did, here you go:

This is the exact tumbler I used:

http://www.harborfreight.com/dual-drum-rotary-rock-tumbler-67632.html

This is the exact product I used as my media

http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2753590

I didn't measure how much media I used per how many rounds I put in each canister. One of those aforementioned subjective things. I tumbled the rounds for 1.5 hours on average "load." Maximum was 3 hours, and the results were not very much more noticeable than the 1.5 hour loads. The 3 hour load was for the more corroded soft point ammo that had a lot of corrosion at the lead tip.

I wasn't going for bright and shiny, I just wanted to mitigate the existing corrosion, and ensure that the rounds would be free of anything that might keep them from working in a rifle correctly (tolerance, etc.). Mission accomplished.

I'd say that I have, absolutely, no reservations on my apparatus and technique. I would bet that the rounds have no more damage than when I started. I applied the media in order to keep the rounds from hitting any surface in the canister (which is rubber, BTW), or other rounds too harshly. Think of it as a gentle scrubbing. Wow, that sounds a lot like some replies telling me to scrub the rounds with steel wool, etc. How interesting...

Obviously, I'm not taking ANY responsibility for my method/apparatus if anyone tries exactly what I did (this is the internet, after all). I am saying that there was no dings/dents in my ammo, and nothing went boom the entire time. All that was left was ammo that looks better than it did, has very little-almost no corrosion, and looks ready to fire. I'll try to take some more pictures soon.

SCmasterblaster
10-03-2012, 11:02
You are making a bold statement about something you don't have a clue on.:faint:
You do every time you shoot factory ammo! It is the last step before packaging.

I should have said that I was only making an educated guess. I didn't mean to make you angry. :upeyes:

Warp
10-03-2012, 12:48
I say again that tumbling the live rounds will very likely break apart the propellant granules and thereby greatly increase the pressure. If you must clean the brass, just use Brasso and a rag on each one. :cool:

I should have said that I was only making an educated guess. I didn't mean to make you angry. :upeyes:

But you didn't. What you did was make a matter of fact statement. I wouldn't call it an educated guess so much as pulling crap out of...uh..."thin air". That is something we should not be doing.

quichedem
10-03-2012, 14:00
Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster:
I say again that tumbling the live rounds will very likely break apart the propellant granules and thereby greatly increase the pressure. If you must clean the brass, just use Brasso and a rag on each one.

Now I'm no expert, but I thought the idea was to keep chemicals away from any points of a cartidge that the chemicals could get inside (i.e.:primer, where projectile enters shell). I would think that is more dangerous than tumbling.

Many replies to this thread, as well as many replies linking to proven tumbling results elsewhere, are showing that there is absolutely nothing wrong with tumbling ammunition.
I didn't realize it when I started this thread, but this is one of the biggest wive's tale fueled debates on the internet! Sheesh. I would say I need to shoot these rounds to prove my findings, but there are just too many people out there that have done just that (in serious detail) and lived to tell the tale. Apparently, the folks who object to it have never done it themselves, or been involved in someone else's undertaking of it.

Glockbuster
10-03-2012, 21:23
I would shoot the ammo you have shown without tumbling. Speaking of tumbling, what is the purpose of making the ammo pretty before shooting it ? you realize they will shoot just fine as they are right ? and there will not be any feeding issues either if your rifle is OK, and you will not damage the gun either.

ilgunguygt
10-04-2012, 01:07
I would shoot the ammo you have shown without tumbling. Speaking of tumbling, what is the purpose of making the ammo pretty before shooting it ? you realize they will shoot just fine as they are right ? and there will not be any feeding issues either if your rifle is OK, and you will not damage the gun either.
Many of us who reload prefer to have our ammo as high quality as possible, and having it clean and shiney is just part of that.

As an aside, I dont want to put dirty cases into a firearm either.

quichedem
10-04-2012, 06:58
I did a final tally of everything, and came out with a nice stock of ammo.

.223 hollow tipped rounds (I cannot ID manu.): 40rds
.223 lead tipped jacketed rounds (I cannot ID manu.): 70rds
.223 NORMA: 70rds

Valcartier "IVI 70" headstamped rounds (doesn't say if .223 or 5.56): 12rds

Lake City (doesn't say if .223 or 5.56): 60rds

5.56 rounds (I cannot ID manu.): 38

The NORMA rounds were in the best shape, and required little time in the tumbler. The lead-tipped jacketed rounds were in the poorest shape. I learned much about the different .223 rounds out there, but there is still much to learn. I have some family members who are interested in shooting some of these rounds. If all goes well, I'll get out to the range this weekend and see how healthy these rounds are after sitting around for decades in various unknown conditions. I'll try to post after that trip.

SCmasterblaster
10-04-2012, 10:25
Thats been proven false in independent testing multiple times.

I didn't know that. :cool:

scccdoc
10-04-2012, 10:35
Try a buffing wheel with "soft Scrub". Clean residue, wipe on some "Pledge" and let dry......... DOC

Glockdude1
10-04-2012, 10:37
Shoot them.

:cool:

SCmasterblaster
10-04-2012, 11:05
Shoot them.

:cool:

That's correct. That is the fastest way to solve the supposed problem! :cool:

ilgunguygt
10-04-2012, 15:06
I didn't know that. :cool:
Many people don't. :supergrin: It doesnt help that there is contradictory statements from manufacturers, etc all over. I think most of that is because of ammo and powder manufacturers playing CYA.

quichedem
10-04-2012, 19:24
Many people don't. :supergrin: It doesnt help that there is contradictory statements from manufacturers, etc all over. I think most of that is because of ammo and powder manufacturers playing CYA.

Definitely this. Seems to be the way of all things these days.

SCmasterblaster
10-05-2012, 10:26
Many people don't. :supergrin: It doesnt help that there is contradictory statements from manufacturers, etc all over. I think most of that is because of ammo and powder manufacturers playing CYA.

Thanks. I never thought of the CYA factor.