The Apex Extractor Is Out [Archive] - Glock Talk

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plouffedaddy
09-25-2012, 11:59
https://apextactical.com/store/product-info.php?pid67.html

Just passing this along; I know lots are looking for one.:wavey:

TheGlockTalker
09-25-2012, 12:02
Excellent.

Thanks

fuzzy03cls
09-25-2012, 12:02
If it was it's sold out now

ArrowJ
09-25-2012, 12:12
Does the stock extractor have regular problems?


http://highcaliberguns.com
http://thesitterdowners.com

obrieri
09-25-2012, 12:16
Does the stock extractor have regular problems?


http://highcaliberguns.com
http://thesitterdowners.com

Lol?ż

PAGunner
09-25-2012, 12:30
So many people started ordering them as soon as they became available, they shut the server down. So much for BTF being a rare problem. Lol

dhgeyer
09-25-2012, 12:49
I just called them. "Check back in 3 to 4 weeks". Then she said "1 to 2 weeks". I think I might call every day. I wonder how long it took them to sell out. Minutes probably.

brickboy240
09-25-2012, 13:36
I got my order confirmed.

However I was notified by being on their e-mail list, along with being on m4carbine.net's list.

Gotta love Apex...doing the jobs that Glock and M&P just won't do to make their pistols shoot worth a damn! LOL

I'll let you all know how it performs when it comes in....got a 30rd ammo can full of 9mm NATO ball to test the thing out on! 300rds in the can.

-brickboy240

obrieri
09-25-2012, 13:49
I got my order confirmed.

However I was notified by being on their e-mail list, along with being on m4carbine.net's list.

Gotta love Apex...doing the jobs that Glock and M&P just won't do to make their pistols shoot worth a damn! LOL

I'll let you all know how it performs when it comes in....got a 30rd ammo can full of 9mm NATO ball to test the thing out on!

-brickboy240

30 rounds? Whoooaaaa better not shoot em all in one trip to the range;)

SJ 40
09-25-2012, 13:57
Great News ! Now I wish they would make their quality extractor for all caliber Glocks.
I said they needed to make them by the truck load as they would sell out,guess they did.
SJ 40

DannyR
09-25-2012, 14:01
And if it does not solve any problem?:upeyes:

Tiro Fijo
09-25-2012, 14:21
And if it does not solve any problem?:upeyes:


"For $59.95 cure your BTF problems!! Also cures warts, Eczema, Psoriasis, EDS & puts a swagger in your step!! Be The Man you've always wanted to be!!!"

:animlol::animlol:

Glock2336
09-25-2012, 14:32
So many people started ordering them as soon as they became available, they shut the server down. So much for BTF being a rare problem. Lol



:whistling:

Glock2336
09-25-2012, 14:36
And if it does not solve any problem?:upeyes:



It solved mine Danny, do you feel Glocks are infallible?

Beretta92guy
09-25-2012, 14:39
i thought the brass-to-face problem was "shooter induced"??? LMFAO!!!!!!!

already SOLD OUT....DOUBLE LMFAO!!!!!

ArrowJ
09-25-2012, 15:57
I do not own a Glock yet, so I was seriously inquiring if there is a common extraction problem. I thought one of the big selling points for Glocks is that you can torture them and they keep running...unless the extractor breaks?


http://highcaliberguns.com
http://thesitterdowners.com

ArrowJ
09-25-2012, 15:58
DOUBLE LMFAO!!!!!

LOL Now that is just funny.


http://highcaliberguns.com
http://thesitterdowners.com

Glock2336
09-25-2012, 16:02
I do not own a Glock yet, so I was seriously inquiring if there is a common extraction problem. I thought one of the big selling points for Glocks is that you can torture them and they keep running...unless the extractor breaks?


http://highcaliberguns.com
http://thesitterdowners.com


You've been here 8 years and this is the first time you heard of it? :faint:

SJ 40
09-25-2012, 16:06
I do not own a Glock yet, so I was seriously inquiring if there is a common extraction problem. I thought one of the big selling points for Glocks is that you can torture them and they keep running...unless the extractor breaks?


http://highcaliberguns.com
http://thesitterdowners.comThey used to,mine do of course my newest Glock is more than 6 years old.
There was a time when perfection was spelled with a capital P !
SJ 40

ArrowJ
09-25-2012, 16:09
I signed up eight years ago, but have only been active within the firearms community for the last several months (and here on GT for several weeks) after several years away.


http://highcaliberguns.com
http://thesitterdowners.com

Beanie-Bean
09-25-2012, 16:19
I'm curious to know if this will allow me to load ammo for 9X19 on the lighter side of the spectrum. I've been loading up everything closer to the maximum loads per the books in order to get the cases to eject as expected. So far, so good for that caliber.

I have experienced weak ejection/dribbling when loading on the minimum side of the spectrum.

diamondd2
09-25-2012, 17:31
If this new apex extractor fixes the BTF problem, we should file a class action lawsuit againts Glock. Make them pay for the fix.

Glock2336
09-25-2012, 17:51
If this new apex extractor fixes the BTF problem, we should file a class action lawsuit againts Glock. Make them pay for the fix.


You must want to pay $1,000 for Glocks...

diamondd2
09-25-2012, 18:00
You must want to pay $1,000 for Glocks...


Nobody would pay $1,000 for Glocks. Too many options out there.

Why should we take it up the ass from a corporate giant?

Glock2336
09-25-2012, 18:17
Nobody would pay $1,000 for Glocks. Too many options out there.

Why should we take it up the ass from a corporate giant?

You shouldn't, so stop buying their products and let them no why.

I continue to buy them since I prefer shooting them over anything else and the fix is cheap to me. I tried other platforms and keep coming back to Glock.

wheel
09-25-2012, 18:46
I assume this is only available to fit models that use the newer 15 degree extractors?

glockenturm
09-25-2012, 18:52
If this new apex extractor fixes the BTF problem, we should file a class action lawsuit againts Glock. Make them pay for the fix.

What actions have you taken to solve the problems you have?

Message sent from Texas!

toshbar
09-25-2012, 19:17
30 rounds? Whoooaaaa better not shoot em all in one trip to the range;)
Read it again smarty.

molar
09-25-2012, 19:33
Just got a confirmation e-mail that my extractor has shipped. Hopefully this extractor fixes my ejection, I mean limp wristing problem.

dhoomonyou
09-25-2012, 20:28
SIXTY BUCKS?

No way.

ArrowJ
09-25-2012, 20:41
Does this problem affect all Glocks or only certain model/caliber combinations?


http://highcaliberguns.com
http://thesitterdowners.com

SJ 40
09-25-2012, 20:47
Does this problem affect all Glocks or only certain model/caliber combinations?


http://highcaliberguns.com
http://thesitterdowners.comArrow
Mostly Gen 4 9 mm's but not limited to just them some affect of the Gen 3's and some of other calibers,lately a Glock affliction. SJ 40

ArrowJ
09-25-2012, 21:00
Well, I guess I will wait and see what happens when I get my Glock. $60 seems a little high, but failure to extract could be deadly so I guess it is not that much. Maybe Gen 5 ;)


http://highcaliberguns.com
http://thesitterdowners.com

GPBob
09-25-2012, 21:05
I took my four Glocks out to the range for a function check. A few days ago I exchanged the extractor in my 19 built in May of 2011 with my 19 built in March of this year. My 2011 19 had a double feed and an extremely erratic ejection. I switched back the extractors and the March built 19 had a double feed and erratic ejection. The two 26s ejected beautifully. I went home and ordered the Lonewolf extractor #: LWD-1895. I hope this helps the situation. I will order the Apex extractor when available. The Flat Dark Earth 19 is now known as the "turd".

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh267/bobselveen/TheTurd.jpg

nraman
09-25-2012, 22:40
The Apex extractor is not failure proof, it is a "Failure Resistant Extractor".
Good luck, I hope you guys don't get disappointed.

dgbee456
09-25-2012, 23:19
just buy 2009 and before glocks

diamondd2
09-26-2012, 05:58
What actions have you taken to solve the problems you have?

Message sent from Texas!

I have 2-19's Gen4, 1-26 Gen4. They are all updated with the latest parts (rsa, ejectors). All my extractors have been polished top and bottom. I currently have no BTF issues in any of them and had not one failure of any kind with 1,000+ rds thru each. BUT ejections still seem weak and somewhat sloppy.

I know many others on here have not been so lucky.

My point is, if the APEX extractor fixes all the ejection problems, why couldn't Glock do this? Why do we as Glock owners have to pay $60 for an extractor from an aftermarket source to make the pistol eject right?

Again, if this extracotr works, whe should start a class action lawsuit. Make Glock pay for their mistake, and more over their arrogance for not fixing it in the first place.

And just for the record. I have a G21 Gen4 that ejects BTF.

diamondd2
09-26-2012, 06:05
You shouldn't, so stop buying their products and let them no why.

I continue to buy them since I prefer shooting them over anything else and the fix is cheap to me. I tried other platforms and keep coming back to Glock.

What are you talking about? Was I bashing Glocks? Did I say I would sell all mine off and replace them? No, I did not. Glock is still my prefered platform and will remain so.

What I am saying is that a class action suit to have Glock admit and correct and/or pay for their mistake will not push the prices up. Simple supply and demand will dictate the price of a Glock, and if the their prices went way up like that, no one would contnue to buy.

kaech
09-26-2012, 06:40
1 problem is if you want 1 of these You will be behind 2000 other guys From the black rifle.net forum...SMH...

Arc Angel
09-26-2012, 06:54
And if it does not solve any problem?:upeyes:

It's got to do some good; but, man, the price! :shocked:

I've, now, got over a hundred bucks invested in possible 9mm extractor solutions. All of them, to some degree, improve extraction/ejection on my 3rd gen G-19. I've, also, come to the independent conclusion that the extractor spring AND the spring loaded bearing are equally involved in this dilemma.

Before I start another thread, how about someone answering me this: If I take a #30274 ejector out of a 4th gen THU, and insert it in place of my #336 ejector in a 3rd gen THU, is it going to function? Anybody tried this yet?

I've really got to thank Gaston for this one! :steamed:

DeLo
09-26-2012, 06:56
60 bucks does it come with a box of WWB or Tula... :whistling:

Arc Angel
09-26-2012, 07:12
I took my four Glocks out to the range for a function check. A few days ago I exchanged the extractor in my 19 built in May of 2011 with my 19 built in March of this year. My 2011 19 had a double feed and an extremely erratic ejection. I switched back the extractors and the March built 19 had a double feed and erratic ejection. The two 26s ejected beautifully. I went home and ordered the Lonewolf extractor #: LWD-1895. I hope this helps the situation. I will order the Apex extractor when available. The Flat Dark Earth 19 is now known as the "turd".

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh267/bobselveen/TheTurd.jpg

My wife, who has been harassing me with complaints about the sundry charges on my MasterCard for various Glock parts, read your post this morning and had a really good laugh! :supergrin:

She now thinks that, 'Glocks' are a form of, 'male insanity'; and, before I spend anymore money on this Austrian, 'red herring' of a gun, she wants me to start carrying her highly reliable Ruger SP-101. (She can't understand how a man who was smart enough to talk her into a Ruger revolver could be equally stupid enough to get sucked into such a big Glock screw-up!)

:rofl:

Good luck with the LWD extractor. I tried that solution, too. It didn't work all that well for me; but, maybe, it will for you. :crying:

kodiakpb
09-26-2012, 07:20
If I take a #30274 ejector out of a 4th gen THU, and insert it in place of my #336 ejector in a 3rd gen THU, is it going to function?

Yes it will work.

Arc Angel
09-26-2012, 07:36
Yes it will work.

Thank you so very much! :wavey:

I think I'll try this in conjunction with a non-LCI 9mm SLB. The increased spring compression offered by this SLB seems to help the crappy extractor claw to get a better grip.

In case this disease is, somehow, contagious (And, I swear, some days it appears to be.) I've now quarantined my G-19, and will no longer keep it in the gun safe right next to my two flawless performing G-21's! :supergrin:



ADDED: I'm going to add something else to this discussion: I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that the vertical height of the slide cutout in my G-19 is (or has to be) different from the original (slightly smaller) slide cutouts on older Glocks. I suspect that even a very slight difference of as little as .001" will cause sufficient vertical extractor, 'wobble' to cause erratically held case rims to come flying back at your face.

If any extractor is going to really work then I think it just might have to be final polished and fitted into place. In other words: The more vertical play between the extractor and the slide cutout in which it moves, the more permanent this annoying problem is going to be. (Or, at least, this is my latest theory!) :freak:

fuzzy03cls
09-26-2012, 07:49
got a 30rd ammo can full of 9mm NATO ball to test the thing out on!
No no no......You should be using 115gr Federal champion.

Doughnutman_923
09-26-2012, 07:51
So, pretty much...... the price of a 9mm Glock just went up $60?


Because that's what I'm thinking. Unless you happen to get one that works. After my experience, I would rather buy a better pistol.

I have gotten to the point, when I see a Glock in another officer's holster, I feel little unease. But that's just me.


Maybe things will get better...

PAGunner
09-26-2012, 08:01
I changed platforms over this problem. Too bad all the Kool aid drinking fanboys didn't do that from day one, cause if they did erratic ejection would have been long since fixed.

I'm glad they didn't however, I love the way my M&Ps feel in my hand and perform. I could never go back to the akward angled block grip.

J.B.
09-26-2012, 09:22
I changed platforms over this problem. Too bad all the Kool aid drinking fanboys didn't do that from day one, cause if they did erratic ejection would have been long since fixed.

I'm glad they didn't however, I love the way my M&Ps feel in my hand and perform. I could never go back to the akward angled block grip.

Maybe you should be President, I mean you seem to have everything figured out. :yawn:

GPBob
09-26-2012, 09:37
Good luck with the LWD extractor. I tried that solution, too. It didn't work all that well for me; but, maybe, it will for you. :crying:[/QUOTE]

Was it at least better than with the OEM extractor?
Out of all the different extractors you've tried, which one gave the best ejection? The double feed I got had the case flipped over and facing me and parallel to the next bullet trying to feed. This was with Aguila ammo 124gr FMJ.

Most of the Speer Gold Dot 124 +Ps I shot ejected straight up into the air.

Out of the 50 rounds of Federal white box FMJ ammo I bought from the range, 10 hit me in the forehead with one taking a chip out of the lens of my prescription glasses.

Glock2336
09-26-2012, 10:13
60 bucks does it come with a box of WWB or Tula... :whistling:



No, but their extractor had no problems with those rounds. UMC on the other hand I'd rather flush down the toilet...

Glock2336
09-26-2012, 10:15
No no no......You should be using 115gr Federal champion.


I did not try Federal Champion but I did try many others...

http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad251/SShenaniguns/13d7b205.jpg

brickboy240
09-26-2012, 10:18
People are paying 100 bucks plus to get a decent trigger on their M&Ps...60 bucks to cure your 9mm Glock ejection is not bad.

Besides, Apex actually tested very heavily, their extractor before releasing it...unlike Glock with the MIM dip extractor. Also, the Glock extractor is a fairly complex part to machine out of bar stock. The cost reflects that.

Also, if you (like me) have done nothing to your Glock...paying 60 bucks for something that fixes this problem is NOT a huge expense. I will probably lose almost that in trading or selling the thing. I'd rather try this first.

-brickboy240

Glock2336
09-26-2012, 10:26
People are paying 100 bucks plus to get a decent trigger on their M&Ps...60 bucks to cure your 9mm Glock ejection is not bad.

Besides, Apex actually tested very heavily, their extractor before releasing it...unlike Glock with the MIM dip extractor. Also, the Glock extractor is a fairly complex part to machine out of bar stock. The cost reflects that.

Also, if you (like me) have done nothing to your Glock...paying 60 bucks for something that fixes this problem is NOT a huge expense. I will probably lose almost that in trading or selling the thing. I'd rather try this first.

-brickboy240

Some issues that have been encountered are:
Terrible triggers, early unlocking causing precision problems, magazine springs binding, failures to fire and even failure to extract for some 9mm's.

JBS
09-26-2012, 10:31
People are paying 100 bucks plus to get a decent trigger on their M&Ps...60 bucks to cure your 9mm Glock ejection is not bad.-brickboy240

And the XDm pilots are paying 145.00 for PRP triggers to get a decent trigger in their XD/Ms because a fluff and buff does not cut it.

Arc Angel
09-26-2012, 10:41
No no no......You should be using 115gr Federal champion.

I've toyed with this, too. Originally, I thought that faster slide speed might improve things. What I've, since, found out is that it only speeds everything up. :supergrin:

Good luck with the LWD extractor. I tried that solution, too. It didn't work all that well for me; but, maybe, it will for you. :crying:

Was it at least better than with the OEM extractor?
Out of all the different extractors you've tried, which one gave the best ejection? The double feed I got had the case flipped over and facing me and parallel to the next bullet trying to feed. This was with Aguila ammo 124gr FMJ.

Most of the Speer Gold Dot 124 +Ps I shot ejected straight up into the air.

Out of the 50 rounds of Federal white box FMJ ammo I bought from the range, 10 hit me in the forehead with one taking a chip out of the lens of my prescription glasses.

You were quoting me, right? ;)

No, I didn't notice any improvement, at all, with the LWD extractor. In fact, it was worse. I tried using this extractor with both LCI and non-LCI 9mm SLB's, as well as an LCI 40 caliber SLB. Results were, disappointingly, about the same.

So far the best ejection has come from a standard OEM Glock LCI extractor fitted with a non-LCI SLB. Second best extraction has come from a standard OEM Glock LCI extractor backed up to a White Sound Defense, EDP rod. I got a 2% failure rate with the former combination; and a 6 or 7% failure rate with the White Sound device.

As you can see I'm not having an horrendous problem with my G-19; but, then again, it only takes one red hot casing in the eye to ruin you day! :crying:

In your particular situation I suspect that either the extractor claw is extraordinarily loose, or the recoil guide rod might, also, be involved. I'm presently on my 4th 9mm extractor; and I should, probably, add that I only use Wolff Gunsprings' guide rods and springs. (They're only for [up to] 3rd gen Glocks and provide very smooth slide movement.)

I've got a 40 caliber extractor and another SLB coming from Glockmeister in the mail. The only two things I have left to test now are (1) the use of a 40 caliber extractor, and (2) the replacement of the original #336 ejector with a new #30274 ejector. If I'm not able to get 100% reliable operation out of either of these combinations then, as much as it hurts, I'm going to be carrying either a CZ or an M&P. (Probably a CZ, 'Shadow'!)

Today I even went so far as to call my old friends at Smyrna Tech Support. Seven minutes on hold with no one picking up my, 'important phone call'. (Which is, I suppose, better than getting lied to, again.) Right now, I'm almost done with this crap. :)

Glock2336
09-26-2012, 10:45
And the XDm pilots are paying 145.00 for PRP triggers to get a decent trigger in their XD/Ms because a fluff and buff does not cut it.


Plus shipping :wow:

fuzzy03cls
09-26-2012, 10:46
I changed platforms over this problem. Too bad all the Kool aid drinking fanboys didn't do that from day one, cause if they did erratic ejection would have been long since fixed.

I'm glad they didn't however, I love the way my M&Ps feel in my hand and perform. I could never go back to the akward angled block grip.
Did you ever buy a newer one & test it for yourself?

Fire_Medic
09-26-2012, 10:52
ADDED: I'm going to add something else to this discussion: I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that the vertical height of the slide cutout in my G-19 is (or has to be) different from the original (slightly smaller) slide cutouts on older Glocks. I suspect that even a very slight difference of as little as .001" will cause sufficient vertical extractor, 'wobble' to cause erratically held case rims to come flying back at your face.


That is an interesting theory, and you could very well be on to something. Another theory as well, is the ejection port dimensions, there is a great deal of good information here:

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=92447

Made in Austria
09-26-2012, 11:01
I am not a fan of the lowering the ejection port theory. But, I must say it's a good business idea of him.

Fire_Medic
09-26-2012, 11:09
I am not a fan of the lowering the ejection port theory. But, I must say it's a good business idea of him.


Just curious but can you please explain why not a fan?

Chip62
09-26-2012, 11:10
Good luck with the Lonewolf extractor, it made my ejection worse. I put the stock extractor back in. Hopefully, the Apex will fix the BTF.

mo.glocker
09-26-2012, 11:16
I changed platforms over this problem. Too bad all the Kool aid drinking fanboys didn't do that from day one, cause if they did erratic ejection would have been long since fixed.

I'm glad they didn't however, I love the way my M&Ps feel in my hand and perform. I could never go back to the akward angled block grip.
yes,so did i until i carried it to work for a week iwb,by friday the m&p logo were full of rust,cleaned it off the best i could and sold it the next day-jeff:wavey:

curlysir
09-26-2012, 11:23
Before I start another thread, how about someone answering me this: If I take a #30274 ejector out of a 4th gen THU, and insert it in place of my #336 ejector in a 3rd gen THU, is it going to function? Anybody tried this yet?

I installed one in my Gen 2 and It works so it should work in a Gen 3. Ejections are very consistent.

Have you tried the new Glock non dipped extractor? They appear to be better quality then the dipped. I installed one in my Gen 4 G17 with the new ejector and so far no brass to the face, FTF, FTE, etc.

Glock2336
09-26-2012, 11:26
That is an interesting theory, and you could very well be on to something. Another theory as well, is the ejection port dimensions, there is a great deal of good information here:

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=92447


The ejection port modifications were done before the prototype extractors ever came out, their goal is for that to be a last resort after every other measure is exhausted.

Made in Austria
09-26-2012, 11:28
Just curious but can you please explain why not a fan?

- It weakens the slide in that area even more than it already is.

- It will probably start to rust.

- It's a band-aid fix

All you need is a proper working extraction mechanism. No need for cutting around on the slide.


http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd419/wolfgun/GlockModel17crackedslide1.jpg

This is not the only Glock with an cracked ejection port. There are more out there.

Glock2336
09-26-2012, 11:31
- It weakens the slide in that area even more than it already is.

- It will probably start to rust.

- It's a band-aid fix

All you need is a proper working extraction mechanism. No need for cutting around on the slide.


http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd419/wolfgun/GlockModel17crackedslide1.jpg

This is not the only Glock with an cracked ejection port. There are more out there.


It's also been done successfully with 1911's for decades... There's not that much material removed where it will significantly weaken it but it will be less resistant to corrosion.

Made in Austria
09-26-2012, 11:49
It's also been done successfully with 1911's for decades... There's not that much material removed where it will significantly weaken it but it will be less resistant to corrosion.


Yes, but a Glock slide/steel is different than most 1911 slides due to their different steel properties/hardness. A 1911 slide is more flexible than a Glock slide. Both slides have their advantages and disadvantages.

Glock2336
09-26-2012, 11:58
Yes, but a Glock slide/steel is different than most 1911 slides due to their different steel properties/hardness. A 1911 slide is more flexible than a Glock slide. Both slides have their advantages and disadvantages.



Very true, but it will be hard to find a data point on these modified Glock slides since there are only a few. If some or all start cracking then we will eventually find out.

Made in Austria
09-26-2012, 12:07
I agree, it's hard to tell for sure without reliable data. The problem with the Glock slide is the extreme hardness. If you cut a piece out of the hardness then you have a very abrupt transition from hard to soft and that's probably the line where the crack will start.

Fire_Medic
09-26-2012, 12:08
It's also been done successfully with 1911's for decades... There's not that much material removed where it will significantly weaken it but it will be less resistant to corrosion.

This was my point........

Fire_Medic
09-26-2012, 12:18
The ejection port modifications were done before the prototype extractors ever came out, their goal is for that to be a last resort after every other measure is exhausted.

I understand, was just adding more data to the thread. I think at this point, despite what someone (or some company) might want to or not want to admit, that slides could also be out of spec, as well as many of the other parts affected.

The stacking of tolerances and parts being made from different sources (outsourced) is now apparent.

Simple example- If you take a Ghost "Rocket" and fit it to one pistol, you cannot just take that part (the connector) and slap into an other pistol. It most often will not work, and in the rare event it does, will still need some fitting, because the parts between the pistols are machined with different tolerances.

You can however, take the connector, and all the parts associated with the function of the trigger(ie: trigger bar, housing, etc) and swap them over and it will work, because you have moved all the working parts of this aspect of the pistol, that were fitted to work together, so no tolerances were changed.

I'm no engineer, do not work for glock, do not work for Apex, just a regular guy with his own observations.

Just my $0.02

Just trying to add to the collective info, the more information we share, the more we can all help to finding a resolution. Some of us are to heavily invested in the platform to just walk from it. $60 on a new part is better than the loss of $$$ one would endure to dump a pistol. Plus, I would not myself sell a problematic gun to someone else with out disclosing the issues it may have, you do not know if that person will be carrying that pistol or using it for self defense.

Unfortunately right now, at this point in time, it's a strange era for someone new looking for a solidly reliable 9MM, because the pistol that was once "bullet proof" as far as reliability goes is not, and the new kid on the block (M&P) has it's own fair shares of issues in the 9MM caliber. So it's a roll of the dice, hit or miss.

My G19 started erratic ejection after more than 1,500 rounds through it, but it still has not a failure of any kind. However, as I have stated before in other threads, "for me" the occasional BTF is nothing new, all of my 3rd Gen guns have done so, but not consistently so it has not bothered me.

There are so many variables that can account for that..........

Glock2336
09-26-2012, 12:40
I understand, was just adding more data to the thread. I don't think at this point, despite what someone (or some company) might want to or not want to admit, that slides could also be out of spec, as well as many of the other parts affected.

The stacking of tolerances and parts being made from different sources (outsourced) is now apparent.

Simple example- If you take a Ghost "Rocket" and fit it to one pistol, you cannot just take that part (the connector) and slap into an other pistol. It most often will not work, and in the rare event it does, will still need some fitting, because the parts between the pistols are machined with different tolerances.

You can however, take the connector, and all the parts associated with the function of the trigger(ie: trigger bar, housing, etc) and swap them over and it will work, because you have moved all the working parts of this aspect of the pistol, that were fitted to work together, so no tolerances were changed.

I'm no engineer, do not work for glock, do not work for Apex, just a regular guy with his own observations.

Just my $0.02

Just trying to add to the collective info, the more information we share, the more we can all help to finding a resolution. Some of us are to heavily invested in the platform to just walk from it. $60 on a new part is better than the loss of $$$ one would endure to dump a pistol. Plus, I would not myself sell a problematic gun to someone else with out disclosing the issues it may have, you do not know if that person will be carrying that pistol or using it for self defense.

Unfortunately right now, at this point in time, it's a strange era for someone new looking for a solidly reliable 9MM, because the pistol that was once "bullet proof" as far as reliability goes is not, and the new kid on the block (M&P) has it's own fair shares of issues in the 9MM caliber. So it's a roll of the dice, hit or miss.

My G19 started erratic ejection after more than 1,500 rounds through it, but it still has not a failure of any kind. However, as I have stated before in other threads, "for me" the occasional BTF is nothing new, all of my 3rd Gen guns have done so, but not consistently so it has not bothered me.

There are so many variables that can account for that..........



Hey I agree with you, I was just posting what Randy said about the ejection port mod so people understand that Apex is not telling everyone with Extraction/Ejection problems to send it to them so they can fix it. They are hoping their extractor works for 99% of the problematic guns out there.

Fire_Medic
09-26-2012, 12:52
Hey I agree with you, I was just posting what Randy said about the ejection port mod so people understand that Apex is not telling everyone with Extraction/Ejection problems to send it to them so they can fix it. They are hoping their extractor works for 99% of the problematic guns out there.

No disagreement brother just adding my $0.02 :supergrin:

JBS
09-26-2012, 13:34
According to Randy Lee on another forum they only had 70 extractors available in the first run. That’s a very cautious production run.

Glock2336
09-26-2012, 13:38
According to Randy Lee on another forum they only had 70 extractors available in the first run. That’s a very cautious production run.


70 now and more in about 3 weeks. Remember people that they are a small shop, and there's multiple processes involved before they are ready for sale. For example:

Manufacturing
QC Check
Melonite
QC Check again
Package
etc...

SJ 40
09-26-2012, 14:11
According to Randy Lee on another forum they only had 70 extractors available in the first run. That’s a very cautious production run.What they needed is about three truck loads to cover just what is in circulation at the moment not to mention future Glock production. SJ 40

dhgeyer
09-26-2012, 14:13
According to Randy Lee on another forum they only had 70 extractors available in the first run. That’s a very cautious production run.

Maybe they want to get some feedback before going full tilt. Happy shooting you Beta testers! :supergrin:

JBS
09-26-2012, 14:15
Maybe they want to get some feedback before going full tilt. :supergrin:

We have a winner! friend

SJ 40
09-26-2012, 14:19
Maybe they want to get some feedback before going full tilt. Happy shooting you Beta testers! :supergrin:
It was my understanding it had already been beta tested for most of this year.
Glock is the company that uses it's customers as beta testers,that's what we are for. SJ 40

Glock2336
09-26-2012, 14:23
It was my understanding it had already been beta tested for most of this year.
Glock is the company that uses it's customers as beta testers,that's what we are for. SJ 40


Ignore the replacement NFL Ref above, you truly are the winner :wavey:


When I started testing:
http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad251/SShenaniguns/13d7b205.jpg

Glock2336
09-26-2012, 14:44
I just realized that I need to change the "Empties at head" to 'Empties at Face" :embarassed:

JBS
09-26-2012, 14:46
Ignore the replacement NFL Ref above, you truly are the winner

No need to be rude, there is a difference between selected testers and the masses. He is engaging in safe business practices.

Glock2336
09-26-2012, 14:47
No need to be rude, there is a difference between selected testers and the masses. He is engaging in safe business practices.


I think it's rude that you're trying to speak for Apex Tactical when you do not.

dhgeyer
09-26-2012, 14:52
Dictionary definition of Beta test:

"beta test |ˈbeɪdə ˌtɛst|
noun
a trial of machinery, software, or other products, in the final stages of its development, carried out by a party unconnected with its development."

Notice the part about being a "party unconnected with its development"?

Unless they actually hired a testing outfit, yup, that would be us. Well, actually not me. I wasn't that lucky. I'd love the opportunity to Beta test one of their extractors. I'd gladly pay the entry fee. But, not to be.

Glock2336
09-26-2012, 14:56
Dictionary definition of Beta test:

"beta test |ˈbeɪdə ˌtɛst|
noun
a trial of machinery, software, or other products, in the final stages of its development, carried out by a party unconnected with its development."

Notice the part about being a "party unconnected with its development"?

Unless they actually hired a testing outfit, yup, that would be us. Well, actually not me. I wasn't that lucky. I'd love the opportunity to Beta test one of their extractors. I'd gladly pay the entry fee. But, not to be.



Myself and 10 others were unconnected with its development.

Next...

J.B.
09-26-2012, 14:59
MOM! Someone on the internet said someone else is wrong!:freak:

JBS
09-26-2012, 15:04
Classic example of why this place has one of the nastiest reputations on the gun net. Probably exactly why Mr. Lee made the business decision to do his posting on m4carbine. Glad you got to be a selected tester, and you are now speaking for his company so you may want to throttle things a bit as you have gone from party unconnected to directly connected to his product.

Glock2336
09-26-2012, 15:07
I was lucky... When I bought my Gen 4 G19 I thought I'd be sitting around waiting as well, I'm also happy I was able to purchase just one for my new Gen 4 G17 coming in next week.

JBP55
09-26-2012, 15:29
I am like the majority of Gen 4 Glock owners, I do not need one.

Glock2336
09-26-2012, 15:37
I am like the majority of Gen 4 Glock owners, I do not need one.


I wish there was a way to know what the percentage is that do have this problem. I only have one (soon to be 2) Gen 4 9mm, but my experience was pretty bad with BTTF. Hopefully my FDE Gen 4 G17 won't have this problem. :dunno:

tbc
09-26-2012, 16:49
Maybe they want to get some feedback before going full tilt. Happy shooting you Beta testers! :supergrin:

Yep! A wise move from Apex.


Sent from my iPhone 6 :D

pag23
09-26-2012, 16:59
I am going to hold off on the Apex to see if going back to the 336 ejector and a non dipped extractor will work. I did notice that the wear pattern on both extractors is different.

Arc Angel
09-26-2012, 17:53
That is an interesting theory, and you could very well be on to something. Another theory as well, is the ejection port dimensions, there is a great deal of good information here:

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=92447

I’m just full of, ‘interesting theories’. ;)

Personally, I don’t think the ejection port is either too tall, or too small; nor do I believe that the ejected cases are hitting the sidewall. Right from the get-go I’ve been watching for this! (I’m an old 1911 pattern shooter.) My current, ‘theory du jour’ revolves around:

(1) The vertical slop in the extractor cut, (Whether or not there is, also, horizontal slop I do not know.) What I strongly suspect is that a very slight increase in the vertical dimension of the extractor cut was made in order to accommodate the obviously larger dimensions of the new MIM extractors.)

(2) The extracted cases are, for whatever reason(s), NOT being held as tightly by the extractor claw as they used to be. At the beginning of the extraction process the fired cases are, somehow, bouncing around and slightly falling downward.

(3) It’s this slight downward droop that causes the ejector’s tip to hit unusually low on the case head (at about 7 or 8 o’clock); and, once this happens, (4) the brass case is going to arc upwards (Thus, at least on my G-19, clearing the slide sidewall and, due to being loosely held in place, arcing off in an unpredictable direction.)

(5) I have not the slightest doubt that the SLB bearing and the SLB spring are, also, involved. (The White Sound EDP rod that I’ve had some - but, not enough - initial success with specifically addressed this loose hold problem.) One of the now many components I’ve tried is Wolff Gunsprings' SLB spring. The addition of a Wolff Gunsprings' SLB spring and a non-LCI SLB bearing has actually worked BETTER for me than the White Sound EDP rod.

I’m waiting, right now, to receive a number 30274 ejector, and a 40 caliber extractor. Hopefully I’ll be able to finish these experiments before my wife either confiscates my MasterCard, or ends up plugging me with my own defective Glock. (Maybe both!) :supergrin:

I installed one in my Gen 2 and it works so it should work in a Gen 3. Ejections are very consistent.

Have you tried the new Glock non dipped extractor? They appear to be better quality then the dipped. I installed one in my Gen 4 G17 with the new ejector and so far no brass to the face, FTF, FTE, etc.

Thank you for that! Hopefully I haven’t wasted another 12 bucks.

Yes, so far, I’ve tried two of them; in fact, there’s one in my G-19 right now. I’m positive that the new, ‘non-dip extractors’ are too loose to work well - especially in their vertical dimension; and the testing I’ve been doing these past several days (WHAT A WASTE OF, OTHERWISE, PERFECTLY GOOD AMMUNITION!) seems to bear this out. Personally, I suspect your (so far) good results are due, primarily, to the addition of a #30274 ejector. I hope your good luck continues!

Fire_Medic
09-26-2012, 18:27
Arc- My Gen 4 G19 came with the #30274 ejector from the factory, guess I lucked out there. As for the spring for the extractor, it was swapped out, as well as all the other springs (except for the factory RSA) for factory rated Wolff Springs; tip I picked up from an old friend. ;)

As I stated earlier, my gun hasn't been much worse than any of my older Gen 3 pistols, but the erratic ejection did not start until 1,500 rounds plus, I will give the Apex part a try on the next batch if I can get one. I do get a lot of rounds that just seem to barely roll over the ejection port and end up on my forearm and more to the face than with my older Gen 3 guns, but no malfunctions/stoppages to date.

Arc Angel
09-26-2012, 19:01
:) FM, my G-19 problems didn't start until about the 3,000 round mark; so, maybe, my Wolff gunsprings really did do some good.

After my next round of experiments with the #30274 ejector AND 40 caliber extractor, I'll let you know what, if anything, good I discover.

GPBob
09-26-2012, 19:06
Arc Angel, you said the Lonewolf extractor had a worse ejection than the OEM. Also that the SLB and plunger spring may also have some bearing. I told of switching extractors between new and newer 19s and whichever 19 had the latest extractor had the problem. So in my situation, a different extractor for my latest 19 might be the answer for me. I'm hoping that the Lonewolf extractor saves the day.

My two 26s which are early 2011 and 2012 models eject just fine. Do any of the 26s experience poor ejection? If things don't work out for my 19, I'm thinking about trading it for another 26. That is unless it's another crap shoot like the 19.

Fire_Medic
09-26-2012, 19:12
:) FM, my G-19 problems didn't start until about the 3,000 round mark; so, maybe, my Wolff gunsprings really did do some good.

After my next round of experiments with the #30274 ejector AND 40 caliber extractor, I'll let you know what, if anything, good I discover.

Thanks I would appreciate it. I would be very interested in what the 40 cal extractor does if anything.

My minor issues with ejection were with a good amount of rounds too, I just lost count on the gun and the last written record I have is over 1,500, but I know I had well over 2,500 just wasn't documented so I fall back to what I can prove.

I was busy running 2K round challenges on two other pistols, and let the G19 slip onto the back burner because it had not given me issues.

Fire_Medic
09-26-2012, 19:13
Arc Angel, you said the Lonewolf extractor had a worse ejection than the OEM. Also that the SLB and plunger spring may also have some bearing. I told of switching extractors between new and newer 19s and whichever 19 had the latest extractor had the problem. So in my situation, a different extractor for my latest 19 might be the answer for me. I'm hoping that the Lonewolf extractor saves the day.

My two 26s which are early 2011 and 2012 models eject just fine. Do any of the 26s experience poor ejection? If things don't work out for my 19, I'm thinking about trading it for another 26. That is unless it's another crap shoot like the 19.

Have you tried any of the G26 parts in the G19? Just curious if so what the results were.

Beretta92guy
09-26-2012, 19:16
I changed platforms over this problem. Too bad all the Kool aid drinking fanboys didn't do that from day one, cause if they did erratic ejection would have been long since fixed.

I'm glad they didn't however, I love the way my M&Ps feel in my hand and perform. I could never go back to the akward angled block grip.

great minds think alike, except i went with the XD/XDm platform

Beretta92guy
09-26-2012, 19:20
ADDED: I'm going to add something else to this discussion: I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that the vertical height of the slide cutout in my G-19 is (or has to be) different from the original (slightly smaller) slide cutouts on older Glocks. I suspect that even a very slight difference of as little as .001" will cause sufficient vertical extractor, 'wobble' to cause erratically held case rims to come flying back at your face.


i had been saying this MONTHS ago, that the slides were out-of-spec....:cool:

nraman
09-26-2012, 21:53
I think I'll try this in conjunction with a non-LCI 9mm SLB. The increased spring compression offered by this SLB seems to help the crappy extractor claw to get a better grip.

I would definitely try that. I don't see how it can hurt.
Another thing I would try, I'd bend the ejector up .001-.002, to make the ejector hit the case a little higher and hopefully push the case to the side instead of up. I keep thinking that the narrow tip of the ejector might be a problem, a wider tip with an angle to match the case face at the moment of the ejection would give more predictable ejection IMO.

nraman
09-26-2012, 22:25
i had been saying this MONTHS ago, that the slides were out-of-spec....:cool:

I think it was proved to be the case by a member who swapped slides and frames and the problem followed the slide.
I also believe that it is possible that tolerance stacking in the slide can affect the point where the ejector hits the case, if it hits low it would have the tendency to flip it up.

ArrowJ
09-27-2012, 00:59
I changed platforms over this problem. Too bad all the Kool aid drinking fanboys didn't do that from day one, cause if they did erratic ejection would have been long since fixed.

I'm glad they didn't however, I love the way my M&Ps feel in my hand and perform. I could never go back to the akward angled block grip.

Does the M&P have an external safety? One of the biggest draws to Glock for me (other than flawless performance...which is obviously not the case) is the simplicity...about as simple as you can get without a wheel gun. I like the feel of the XD pistols too, but the Glocks are so simple.


http://highcaliberguns.com
http://thesitterdowners.com

ArrowJ
09-27-2012, 01:11
Has anyone had this problem with the 357 Sig? Maybe I just found another reason to go with that caliber ;)


http://highcaliberguns.com
http://thesitterdowners.com

dhgeyer
09-27-2012, 05:16
Does the M&P have an external safety?

It comes with and without a thumb safety. If you live in a free state (as opposed to a slave state) you have a choice. Two slightly different models - the thumb safety being the only difference. Mine operates as a Glock operates. Not quite as easy to field strip, although not bad. Not quite as accurate, but the major accuracy problems that early M&P's had seem to be in the past. Ergos are better. Some people don't like the trigger, which can be replaced with an Apex unit. I let mine break in, and I think the trigger is fine. Detail stripping the frame is more time consuming than a Glock. The extractor is far superior, and function is flawless for all but a very few. Hanging out at the M&P forum you hear some complaints about accuracy, but you hardly ever hear about jams or brass to the face. Mine has gone 1000+ rounds with no issues of any kind with good/bad/and indifferent ammo.

I do prefer the simplicity of the Glock internals, and it is slightly more accurate. The M&P has a much slower twist and conventional rifling. Fussier about ammo, but you can shoot lead without the controversy.

Arc Angel
09-27-2012, 06:17
Arc Angel, you said the Lone Wolf extractor had a worse ejection than the OEM. Also that the SLB and plunger spring may also have some bearing. I told of switching extractors between new and newer 19s and whichever 19 had the latest extractor had the problem. So in my situation, a different extractor for my latest 19 might be the answer for me. I'm hoping that the Lone Wolf extractor saves the day.

My two 26s which are early 2011 and 2012 models eject just fine. Do any of the 26s experience poor ejection? If things don't work out for my 19, I'm thinking about trading it for another 26. That is unless it's another crap shoot like the 19.

:) In and of itself I very much doubt it. Personally I’m with the poster who said that you’ve got to change, at least, two or more components before you can expect a positive result.

I had been saying this MONTHS ago, that the slides were out-of-spec ....

Yeah, I’m starting to think that you’re right, too! The size of the slide cutouts for the new MIM extractors, at least for awhile and on some units, might have been increased; maybe, by no more than 1/1,000th of an inch, or so, but increased nonetheless. (Whether or not Glock, GmbH is still doing this, or whether or not this was done universally, I do not know?)

I’m, now, running the newest Glock OEM extractor; and there is a lot of play in that sucker - Not just up and down, either. There’s, also, a discernable amount of forward and backward movement, too. I’ll tell you something else I’ve noticed: Much of this, ‘extractor problem’ occurs when the expelled casing becomes able to slip downward inside the extractor’s claw. All it has to do is slip by, about, 1/100th of an inch; and, voila, a #336 ejector is going to hit the 7 or 8 o’clock position on that case head with potentially disastrous results!

:wow: (Watch your eyes! So far, I’ve taken more than a dozen strikes to the bill of my ball cap, as well as 2 or 3 ejected cases right into the front of my glasses!)

From what I can tell it’s not just the symmetry of the extractor claw or the height of the extractor that’s involved. The problem is more complex than that. For instance: If the diameter of the slide hole the extractor's round, ‘movement limiter’ nests into is slightly oversized, then, there’s going to be just enough additional front-to-back movement to produce a discernible effect on the extractor's ability to tightly hold onto to a moving case head.

Neither do I agree with the fellow who’s doing so much posting about this problem over on M4 Carbine. Why? Because by the time the barrel moves backwards and ever so slightly touches the top of the locking block this problem has already begun to occur. Barrel movement, in and of itself, is NOT a factor in the, ‘BTF problem’.

I’m, also, against lowering the height of the slide's ejection port because this is a remedial solution that addresses a symptom of the problem rather than the problem, itself. SOMETHING has to hold the ejecting cartridge head in place and prevent it from slipping downward as the case is pulled out of the firing chamber. (The question becomes, 'What'?)

It should, also, be obvious that the downward moving barrel applies only a minimal amount of downward force to the ejecting case. (In my opinion NOT sufficient enough, nor of a long enough duration, to cause an ejecting case to drop, appreciably.) This problem revolves around a summation of any and all forces that inhibit an ejecting case's propensity toward downward travel.

One factor that no one seems to have considered, so far, is the profile on the front of the slide pickup rail. To my eye, a very slight forward protrusion at the bottom of the pickup rail’s face would certainly inhibit the case head's tendency to drop during the extraction process.

Other factors which contribute to holding the expelled case head in place, and above the 7 or 8 o’clock trouble point include: a more tightly grasping extractor claw, a different extractor claw geometry, a more rigidly held in place extractor, and a different profile on the ejector’s head. I’m, ‘reaching’ on this one; but, I’m also suspicious of any possible difference in the coefficients-of-friction between milled steel, and MIM (sintered) metal. (In other words: A MIM part might be too slippery to work well as an extractor.)

I couldn’t sleep last night; so, after offering the appropriate prayers for Yom Kippur, (The Day of Atonement) I spent the rest of the night meticulously taking my G-19’s slide apart and carefully studying the mechanical relationships between the various parts. The incipient conclusion I’ve drawn indicates that a list of different things both causes and can correct Glock’s, ‘BTF problem’.

This is, ‘Why’ a Glock owner can, occasionally, change just one part and achieve a satisfactory result. This is, also, ‘Why’ ,oftentimes, changing just one part does not work. For lack of better words: A, ‘stacking of mechanical tolerances’ as well as varying finished slide dimensions ALL contribute to this extremely annoying and potentially dangerous Glock problem.

Neither have the factory’s, by now, several, ‘quick fixes’ actually done anything to genuinely correct the problem. It might, in fact, take a complete slide replacement in order to completely get rid of Glock’s, ‘BTF problem’; and, with any foreign company as historically omnivorous as Glock, GmbH/Inc., I don’t see much chance for something like this to happen. So, workable solutions are going to be up to: you, me, and a few imaginative Glock parts suppliers. Good luck to all of us! :thumbsup:

If I have anything new to report after examining a flawlessly performing Glock later on today I’ll post again on this topic.

I would definitely try that. I don't see how it can hurt.

Another thing I would try, I'd bend the ejector up .001-.002, to make the ejector hit the case a little higher and hopefully push the case to the side instead of up. I keep thinking that the narrow tip of the ejector might be a problem, a wider tip with an angle to match the case face at the moment of the ejection would give more predictable ejection. IMO.

Yeah, if you’re using a #336 ejector I can see where this might have a beneficial effect.

Glock2336
09-27-2012, 22:33
It comes and without a thumb safety. Ive in a free state (as opposed to a slave state) you have a choice. Two slightly different models - the thumb safety being the only difference. Mine operates as a Glock operates. Not quite as easy to field strip, although not bad. Not quite as accurate, but the major accuracy problems that early M&P's had seem to be in the past. Ergos are better. Some people don't like the trigger, which can be replaced with an Apex unit. I let mine break in, and I think the trigger is fine. Detail stripping the frame is more time consuming than a Glock. The extractor is far superior, and function is flawless for all but a very few. Hanging out at the M&P forum you hear some complaints about accuracy, but you hardly ever hear about jams or brass to the face. Mine has gone 1000+ rounds with no issues of any kind with good/bad/and indifferent ammo.

I do prefer the simplicity of the Glock internals, and it is slightly more accurate. The M&P has a much slower twist and conventional rifling. Fussier about ammo, but you can shoot lead without the controversy.


Actually the accuracy problems still exist, your chance of getting a M&P with terrible accuracy is probably equal to having a Glock ejecting at your face. Some 9mm's did have a problem originally when it shared the same extractor of the 40 models and exhibited similar ejection problems. Apex made a 9mm specific extractor for them too. They are good guns overall after the issues are resolved but I prefer Gen 4 Glocks.

Tiro Fijo
09-28-2012, 01:32
Actually the accuracy problems still exist, your chance of getting a M&P with terrible accuracy is probably equal to having a Glock ejecting at your face...


http://10-8performance.blogspot.com/2012/06/s-m-barrels.html

dhgeyer
09-28-2012, 06:33
your chance of getting a M&P with terrible accuracy is probably equal to having a Glock ejecting at your face. Glocks.

I don't think that point is provable either way scientifically. If anyone is collecting that data (like Smith and Glock) they're not saying. If you hang out on the relevant forums, however, and compare the number of posts complaining or inquiring about the problems, the Smiths are not having anywhere near the number of problem guns that Glock is.

Look at this thread in this forum. As soon as the Apex extractor came out thousands of people are lining up to get one - including me. It costs sixty bucks. If there was a similar fix for the M&P's with accuracy problems, I doubt you'd see that kind of response. It just has not been that widespread of a problem.

You also have to bear in mind that brass to the face, or out and out jamming, are concrete, measurable occurrences. With people having accuracy issues you always have to keep in mind the possibility that they are new shooters, or not very good shooters, and can't hit what they are aiming at, and blame the gun because they heard an Internet rumor.

Lastly, I personally, would rather have a gun that is 100% reliable but not all that accurate than one that jams or sends brass back in my face.

I have a new M&P Full Size 9mm. New barrel type. 900+ rounds without a single case to face. No failures or issues of any kind. Very consistent ejection. Accuracy with Gold Dots is very good. I think I have a handload that shoots very well also, but more testing is in order to confirm that. WWB and similar cheap stuff does not do well in the M&P accuracy wise.

I have a KKM barrel for the M&P. I have not seen any improvement in accuracy with it. YMMV.

Having said all that, I will agree that I prefer the Glock 19 design for its simplicity and ease of maintenance. I just wish someone other than Glock would start making that exact gun to the same standards of quality and reliability that Glock used to maintain.

PAGunner
09-28-2012, 09:19
Actually the accuracy problems still exist, your chance of getting a M&P with terrible accuracy is probably equal to having a Glock ejecting at your face. Some 9mm's did have a problem originally when it shared the same extractor of the 40 models and exhibited similar ejection problems. Apex made a 9mm specific extractor for them too. They are good guns overall after the issues are resolved but I prefer Gen 4 Glocks.

My M&Ps have been flawless, including a FS .40, compact .40, Shield .40 & FS .45, no accuracy issues.

PAGunner
09-28-2012, 09:22
Does the M&P have an external safety? One of the biggest draws to Glock for me (other than flawless performance...which is obviously not the case) is the simplicity...about as simple as you can get without a wheel gun. I like the feel of the XD pistols too, but the Glocks are so simple.


http://highcaliberguns.com
http://thesitterdowners.com

Only my shield .40 has an external safety & it's small and unobtrusive (I don't use it).

kodiakpb
09-28-2012, 09:37
Actually the accuracy problems still exist, your chance of getting a M&P with terrible accuracy is probably equal to having a Glock ejecting at your face. Some 9mm's did have a problem originally when it shared the same extractor of the 40 models and exhibited similar ejection problems. Apex made a 9mm specific extractor for them too. They are good guns overall after the issues are resolved but I prefer Gen 4 Glocks.

I'm still getting some vertical stringing. Granted, this was shot standing unsupported at 45 feet. The fourth and fifth shots (not shown) had one directly above and below the three shot string shown.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/28/y5yru4aj.jpg

molar
09-28-2012, 09:53
Just checked my mail and had a nice surprise waiting for me. My apex extractor arrived. It might be a few days before I can test it out, but I will report back.

Arc Angel
09-28-2012, 13:32
I'm still getting some vertical stringing. Granted, this was shot standing unsupported at 45 feet. The fourth and fifth shots (not shown) had one directly above and below the three shot string shown.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/28/y5yru4aj.jpg

kodiakpb, If you contact LabelsAndMore.com you can get a roll of 1,000 1 1/2" black dots for the center of your dinner plate targets - All for less than $12.00.

http://store.labelsandmore.com/product.php?productid=17582&cat=260&page=1

Just checked my mail and had a nice surprise waiting for me. My apex extractor arrived. It might be a few days before I can test it out, but I will report back.

Let's hope it's a, 'nice surprise'! (Be sure to let the rest of us know, OK.)

kodiakpb
09-28-2012, 13:40
kodiakpb, If you contact LabelsAndMore.com you can get a roll of 1,000 1 1/2" black dots for the center of your dinner plate targets - All for less than $12.00.

http://store.labelsandmore.com/product.php?productid=17582&cat=260&page=1



Fantastic... thanks for the link

Glock2336
09-28-2012, 14:15
http://10-8performance.blogspot.com/2012/06/s-m-barrels.html


I agree with Hilton Yam most of the time but not here, there is a change to the barrel that happened previously for strength but does not have a different barrel twist. Any gain in accuracy in precision between the two are a result of better Quality Control on that gun. My 9mm M&P's were acceptable out to 25 yards with hot Ranger-T but my Gen 4 G19 easily topped them with the same ammo.

Glock2336
09-28-2012, 14:28
I don't think that point is provable either way scientifically. If anyone is collecting that data (like Smith and Glock) they're not saying. If you hang out on the relevant forums, however, and compare the number of posts complaining or inquiring about the problems, the Smiths are not having anywhere near the number of problem guns that Glock is.

Look at this thread in this forum. As soon as the Apex extractor came out thousands of people are lining up to get one - including me. It costs sixty bucks. If there was a similar fix for the M&P's with accuracy problems, I doubt you'd see that kind of response. It just has not been that widespread of a problem.

You also have to bear in mind that brass to the face, or out and out jamming, are concrete, measurable occurrences. With people having accuracy issues you always have to keep in mind the possibility that they are new shooters, or not very good shooters, and can't hit what they are aiming at, and blame the gun because they heard an Internet rumor.

Lastly, I personally, would rather have a gun that is 100% reliable but not all that accurate than one that jams or sends brass back in my face.

I have a new M&P Full Size 9mm. New barrel type. 900+ rounds without a single case to face. No failures or issues of any kind. Very consistent ejection. Accuracy with Gold Dots is very good. I think I have a handload that shoots very well also, but more testing is in order to confirm that. WWB and similar cheap stuff does not do well in the M&P accuracy wise.

I have a KKM barrel for the M&P. I have not seen any improvement in accuracy with it. YMMV.

Having said all that, I will agree that I prefer the Glock 19 design for its simplicity and ease of maintenance. I just wish someone other than Glock would start making that exact gun to the same standards of quality and reliability that Glock used to maintain.



I'm not sure where you're hanging out but I've found as many problems with 9mm M&P's shooting acceptable groups on forums with shooters that actually shoot to 25 yards and beyond like Pistol-Training,Lightfighter, M4C and some on the M&P forum. Randy Lee had Bruce Gray (who shoots Bianchi Cup) shoot his test 9L to 50 yards with unacceptable results.
The theory is when the Compact models were introduced the Full Sized barrels were changed to stream line production yet gave some of them an early unlocking problem which Randy and Apex diagnosed with High Speed Camera footage. Depending on tolerance stacking, you may or may not have a decent grouping 9mm M&P.

Let's also not forget the change of sear plungers to alleviate the "Dead Triggers" aka Sear not resetting.

Glock2336
09-28-2012, 15:17
I don't think that point is provable either way scientifically. If anyone is collecting that data (like Smith and Glock) they're not saying. If you hang out on the relevant forums, however, and compare the number of posts complaining or inquiring about the problems, the Smiths are not having anywhere near the number of problem guns that Glock is.

Look at this thread in this forum. As soon as the Apex extractor came out thousands of people are lining up to get one - including me. It costs sixty bucks. If there was a similar fix for the M&P's with accuracy problems, I doubt you'd see that kind of response. It just has not been that widespread of a problem.

You also have to bear in mind that brass to the face, or out and out jamming, are concrete, measurable occurrences. With people having accuracy issues you always have to keep in mind the possibility that they are new shooters, or not very good shooters, and can't hit what they are aiming at, and blame the gun because they heard an Internet rumor.

Lastly, I personally, would rather have a gun that is 100% reliable but not all that accurate than one that jams or sends brass back in my face.

I have a new M&P Full Size 9mm. New barrel type. 900+ rounds without a single case to face. No failures or issues of any kind. Very consistent ejection. Accuracy with Gold Dots is very good. I think I have a handload that shoots very well also, but more testing is in order to confirm that. WWB and similar cheap stuff does not do well in the M&P accuracy wise.

I have a KKM barrel for the M&P. I have not seen any improvement in accuracy with it. YMMV.

Having said all that, I will agree that I prefer the Glock 19 design for its simplicity and ease of maintenance. I just wish someone other than Glock would start making that exact gun to the same standards of quality and reliability that Glock used to maintain.



I missed the bold above, you must not travel to many other forums:

Apex's Bar-Sto M&P barrel preview started by me with 35,000+ views so far and 200+ responses:
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=81124

Storm Lake's barrel with even more responses and views:
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=104659


And that is only M4C, I can easily post other places.

Glock2336
09-28-2012, 15:20
My M&Ps have been flawless, including a FS .40, compact .40, Shield .40 & FS .45, no accuracy issues.



Yeah cause I specified 9mm :rofl:

dhgeyer
09-28-2012, 15:49
I missed the bold above, you must not travel to many other forums:

Apex's Bar-Sto M&P barrel preview started by me with 35,000+ views so far and 200+ responses:
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=81124

Storm Lake's barrel with even more responses and views:
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=104659


And that is only M4C, I can easily post other places.

Guess I must be lucky. With the right ammo mine shoots better than I can. It is ammo sensitive. I wouldn't spend the money for another barrel. The KKM didn't help. I don't need a fitted barrel.

I don't frequent the M4C forum. You may be right that the problem is more widespread than I thought. But is it still a problem on new guns? Or is it mostly people with older ones looking for a fix? My understanding is that S&W addressed the issue.

Glock2336
09-28-2012, 15:52
Guess I must be lucky. With the right ammo mine shoots better than I can. It is ammo sensitive. I wouldn't spend the money for another barrel. The KKM didn't help. I don't need a fitted barrel.

I don't frequent the M4C forum. You may be right that the problem is more widespread than I thought. But is it still a problem on new guns? Or is it mostly people with older ones looking for a fix? My understanding is that S&W addressed the issue.


Post Compact models

dhgeyer
09-28-2012, 18:30
Post Compact models

Dates of good/bad barrels? When did the Compact come out? I just looked at a thread at MP-Pistol.com in the FS forum, and the consensus there was that S&W came out with a new barrel in April 2012 that solved the problem. That would be consistent with my gun not having a problem, or someone buying a new one getting a good one. If this is accurate, one could buy a new factory replacement barrel after a while (after the stock of old ones runs out) and get the new style and be OK.

I don't think the accuracy of my M&P is quite as good as the Glock, and it is a lot more fussy about what ammo groups well. But it's quite acceptable for what most people, including me, use it for.

Glock2336
09-28-2012, 20:26
I don't remember as my M&P research ended a little while ago when I decided to sell them. I do remember that the problem is not solved. If you'd like to show your honest group at 25 yards in video or pics of the groups I'm interested. Most handgun shooters rarely shoot past 10-12 yards so they don't ever complain about accuracy.

dhgeyer
09-29-2012, 09:51
I am one of those shooters who rarely shoots past 33 feet with a pistol. My eyes are not what they used to be. I'm not the one to be doing accuracy testing on any pistol.

I did take up the challenge this morning, and took the M&P out to the 25 yard range. I only shot one group. It measured 6.625" center to center. I was frankly disappointed, and quit.

I went home and got my Glock 19, for comparison. I assumed I could do a lot better with that. Again I was disappointed. I shot several groups, which averaged about 6".

I shot both guns with the same ammo - a handload of 115 grain hollow points loaded near the max load. They are strong enough to cycle the Glock without brass to the head. A lot of the cases do go up instead of sideways, but they go over my head instead of hitting me.

While I was there I tried WWB. I only shot three rounds. They all hit me in the face (the cases that is). That was enough. I hadn't tried those in a while. That was another disappointment.

I realize this is far from a complete test, and I should take the M&P out and shoot as many groups as I did with the Glock and take the average. For now I can only conclude that I am not the one to be doing this testing. I also think, based on today's experience and about a thousand rounds shot a closer ranges, that there is no significant difference between the Glock and my M&P, other than that the M&P is more reliable and consistent with its ejection. I do think that the Glock is more accurate, but I don't think my M&P is a "problem gun".

Even if neither pistol is capable of better accuracy than this (unlikely), I am satisfied. My days of trying to be a precision pistol shooter are over. Either gun will suffice for home or personal defense and fun shooting.

There are so many threads on so many forums that argue about the merits of the M&P as opposed to the Glock, I don't think we need another one here. It's a thread hijack really. This is supposed to be about the release of the Apex extractor. I will try some 25 yard accuracy testing again with both guns sometime, and post the results in another thread. I don't think I want to post that many pictures, so you'll have to believe that I'm not lying about the results.

Slug71
09-29-2012, 12:22
You must want to pay $1,000 for Glocks...

Why is a lawsuit the result of any problem in this country?? I hate this sue happy mentality...:rolleyes:

cowboy1964
09-29-2012, 14:05
$60? I'll wait to see what the consensus is on whether or not this fixes the problem for most people.

nraman
09-29-2012, 14:57
$60? I'll wait to see what the consensus is on whether or not this fixes the problem for most people.

If I ever run in to this problem I'll try to experiment a little by changing the extractor to catch better at the bottom tip.

Glock2336
09-29-2012, 15:26
Threw the extractor in my Gen 3 S-- G17 with 336 ejector (March/April production; forget which) that was spitting 3-4 casings into my face every magazine no matter the ammo. Happy to say, the problem is SOLVED after my shooting today. :)

In particular, I tried some 115 grain (American Eagle) and 147 grain (Federal HST) ammo that used to spit in my face very consistently, and it worked beautifully. All rounds ejected at exactly 3 o' clock -- didn't get a single ejection at 4 or beyond. The ejection was incredibly powerful compared to stock as well, with all rounds falling 1-10 feet from me. I say 1 to 10 feet because some would eject very, VERY high (read: 5 feet in the air) in a big arc, but would never be exactly vertical and would still fall to the right of my body/the gun.

Overall, not a single casing ejected onto my body at any point, onto the gun at any point, or behind the rear sight. Everything was to the right and everything was kicked out very forcefully.

Some pictures!

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a202/XLordShortyX/IMG_1410.jpg
No dip!

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a202/XLordShortyX/IMG_1413.jpg
As you can see, the old extractor's machining quality is shoddy and it's already wearing down after 1200 rounds. The Apex extractor, however, is crisp and clean. Adds a lot of confidence in the product right from the beginning.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a202/XLordShortyX/IMG_1414.jpg
More wear.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a202/XLordShortyX/IMG_1415.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a202/XLordShortyX/IMG_1418.jpg
Smooth other than a slight machining mark on the outer surface, which bothers me approximately this much:

Thanks for fixing my Glock, Randy.


and my pics below

Glock2336
09-29-2012, 15:26
My crappy pics:

Crappy pics I took last night of Apex's production extractor and their Prototype:

http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad251/SShenaniguns/IMAG0090_zps17b06b37.jpg
http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad251/SShenaniguns/IMAG0089-1_zpsa5d477dc.jpg

Pathfinder20
10-02-2012, 14:34
Post to keep topic active. Please keep info coming in.

Pathfinder20

Arc Angel
10-02-2012, 21:54
I'd really like to know the outcome of this, too. I'm aware that sloppy extractor dimensions, (usually too loose) and the claw profile contribute a lot to the problems with BTF.

INEEDMILK
10-03-2012, 02:11
wtf $60?

diamondd2
10-03-2012, 07:35
Range reports? Anybody?

molar
10-03-2012, 08:48
I'd really like to know the outcome of this, too. I'm aware that sloppy extractor dimensions, (usually too loose) and the claw profile contribute a lot to the problems with BTF.

I can't make it to the range til Friday to test mine. One thing I noticed was that when installed, the claw of the Apex extractor sits perfectly parallel to the breech face. With the factory glock extractor I have, the claw is offset 5 to 10 degrees from the breechface. I believe this is what Randy is talking about when he says he improved the extractor geometry. I'm hoping it resolves my issues

tinman517
10-03-2012, 18:03
Very interesting! All of my Glocks run flawlessly, with the exception of one, which is a current G19. It was purchased back in April of 2012. It ran well for some 1500 rounds of various ammo. Now, using the same ammo, it throws brass up, left, and towards myself.

Quite curious to find if this Apex part works.

GPBob
10-03-2012, 21:07
Very interesting! All of my Glocks run flawlessly, with the exception of one, which is a current G19. It was purchased back in April of 2012. It ran well for some 1500 rounds of various ammo. Now, using the same ammo, it throws brass up, left, and towards myself.

Quite curious to find if this Apex part works.

I've heard this scenario many times of a G 19 running well and then at some round count turning out crappy ejections. What part is wearing out to cause this phenomenon?

I'm in the process of fixing my FDE 19's poor ejections. So at some point after a bunch of range fun I need that gun to protect my life and my gun decides to put out one of my eyes along with the home invader.

GPBob
10-03-2012, 21:19
wtf $60?

I just spent $50.48, that does include shipping, on the LW extractor and the White Sound plunger assembly. I'm hearing that I probably wasted my money on the extractor. So if the Apex extractor proves itself, then the $60 plus shipping is money well spent.

SJ 40
10-03-2012, 21:47
I just spent $50.48, that does include shipping, on the LW extractor and the White Sound plunger assembly. I'm hearing that I probably wasted my money on the extractor. So if the Apex extractor proves itself, then the $60 plus shipping is money well spent.The Apex is money well spent compared to the cost of said Glock.
SJ 40

captdreifus
10-04-2012, 00:53
And if it does not solve any problem?:upeyes:

I am curious to know why you don't want a product to improve a problem that Glock simply does not wish to resolve completely?

Arc Angel
10-04-2012, 07:55
I can't make it to the range til Friday to test mine. One thing I noticed was that when installed, the claw of the Apex extractor sits perfectly parallel to the breech face. With the factory glock extractor I have, the claw is offset 5 to 10 degrees from the breechface. I believe this is what Randy is talking about when he says he improved the extractor geometry. I'm hoping it resolves my issues

Well, you're making perfect sense! Please let us all know what you discover. (and thanks!) :)

I just spent $50.48, that does include shipping, on the LW extractor and the White Sound plunger assembly. I'm hearing that I probably wasted my money on the extractor. So if the Apex extractor proves itself, then the $60 plus shipping is money well spent.

If your experience is similar to my own, the White Sound HRED plunger rod will work; and the LWD extractor will not. Why, the Hell, do we all have to go through this? :freak:

jbglock
10-04-2012, 07:56
I don't have time to read this entire thread. I'll say 99% of you have no idea what has been causing btf. Those that do can skip this. Those that don't, what changed between gen's that might have caused this? Think now. You can do it. Hint.... slide velocity. How do we fix this without some magic extractor? Lighter RSA.

Arc Angel
10-04-2012, 07:58
Slide velocity? With all due respect, I don't think so.

jbglock
10-04-2012, 08:08
Slide velocity? With all due respect, I don't think so.

Haven't worked on one gun yet that I couldn't fix by lightening the recoil spring.

ArrowJ
10-04-2012, 08:35
Haven't worked on one gun yet that I couldn't fix by lightening the recoil spring.

So you have fixed this issue on Gen 4 Glocks or similar issues on other guns?


http://highcaliberguns.com
http://thesitterdowners.com

Glock2336
10-04-2012, 08:49
I think that slide velocity is a factor, but not the factor which may be a reason why hotter ammo seemed to eject a little more consistently in my Apex Prototype Extractor testing.

nraman
10-04-2012, 08:53
I find it interesting that the same extractor is used in all the 9mms G17, G19, G26 and the majority of the problems are with the G19.

Glock2336
10-04-2012, 09:01
I find it interesting that the same extractor is used in all the 9mms G17, G19, G26 and the majority of the problems are with the G19.


Probably due to more G19's possibly sold...

153
10-04-2012, 09:16
I think that slide velocity is a factor, but not the factor which may be a reason why hotter ammo seemed to eject a little more consistently in my Apex Prototype Extractor testing.

I tend to agree with you on this, except for one thing - unlike the testing of various aftermarket parts in the extractor system, and the subtitution of various ejectors, I haven't seen any expierments with RSA of different weights ... unless I have missed that somewhere.

nraman
10-04-2012, 09:22
I tend to agree with you on this, except for one thing - unlike the testing of various aftermarket parts in the extractor system, and the subtitution of various ejectors, I haven't seen any expierments with RSA of different weights ... unless I have missed that somewhere.

When the Gen 4 first came out they replaced the RSA several times.

voyager4520
10-04-2012, 09:31
Some people tried different weight RSA's, some had success and some didn't. It seemed the people who did have success were the exception to the rule.

But erratic ejection is in Gen3's as well. The only thing they changed with recent production Gen3's were the "MIM" parts and possibly the manufacturing tolerances.

Glock2336
10-04-2012, 09:32
I tend to agree with you on this, except for one thing - unlike the testing of various aftermarket parts in the extractor system, and the subtitution of various ejectors, I haven't seen any expierments with RSA of different weights ... unless I have missed that somewhere.


That's where hotter or powder puff ammo is a factor like I stated. Hotter or Higher Power Factor ammo(Similar to NATO loads) had less erratic ejection for the 1,000 rounds of testing I did on Apex's prototype extractor.

Glock is doing its customers a dis-service by trying to share critical parts like the RSA and Extractor between its 9mm and .40 platforms which ends up biting them in the butt down the line and they either begrudgingly do a recall or just fix the guns shipped in for warranty work.

Arc Angel
10-04-2012, 09:41
Haven't worked on one gun yet that I couldn't fix by lightening the recoil spring.

Well, sure! But all you're telling me is that hotter ammunition, or a lighter recoil spring (Why would you want to do that on a combat pistol?) allow less time for the case head to slip down the breechface. This doesn't, 'fix' the problem; it only mitigates it; and the pistol is forced to lose a lot of its versatility in the tradeoff.

Slide velocity is a factor for sure; BUT it is more of a symptom, instead of the cause. (Trust me! I've already wasted a couple of hundred dollars fooling around with this nightmare of a genuinely annoying problem. I've found a number of mechanical solutions that partially work; but none that actually solve the problem.)

ALL of Glock's 9mm pistols are affected; so are a number of 40's, as well. As far as I'm concerned, Glock GmbH/Inc. really, 'sucks rats' on this one. Unfortunately, I was already heavily invested in this G-19 before the BTF problem showed up; so, I'm going to have to stick with this miserable excuse for a self-defense/combat pistol to the very end.

I may only hope that another $75.00, or so, will finally get my G-19(RTF2) pistol to, at least, be reliable. (If the guy shooting next to me on the line keeps getting hit in the face with my short throw/high arcing brass, well ....... THAT I can live with; but, an unreliable Glock I cannot! :freak:

SJ 40
10-04-2012, 09:45
That's where hotter or powder puff ammo is a factor like I stated. Hotter or Higher Power Factor ammo(Similar to NATO loads) had less erratic ejection for the 1,000 rounds of testing I did on Apex's prototype extractor.

Glock is doing its customers a dis-service by trying to share critical parts like the RSA and Extractor between its 9mm and .40 platforms which ends up biting them in the butt down the line and they either begrudgingly do a recall or just fix the guns shipped in for warranty work.2336
Glock doesn't do recalls,remember they are in to so called perfection,rather they call it Updates. SJ 40

Glock2336
10-04-2012, 09:47
2336
Glock doesn't do recalls,remember they are in to so called perfection,rather they call it Updates. SJ 40


Oh yeah, what was I thinking :whistling:

brickboy240
10-04-2012, 10:28
Everyone here is complaining about the price of the Apex part...but has anyone tried it out yet?

We have seen tons of others try the HRED and LWD extractors and swapping the 336 ejector and no real luck.

I just got my Apex extractor and have not put in in the 3rd gen G19 yet. Probably be next week before I have time...with work and all.

I swear though...if this does not fix my G19...I am done with buying Glocks. I will trade this G19 off and replace it with an HK USP 9mm Compact with the LEM trigger and call it good.

Sad...because I have been a long time Glock fan.

-brickboy240

WheelGunFan
10-04-2012, 11:17
Everyone here is complaining about the price of the Apex part...but has anyone tried it out yet?

We have seen tons of others try the HRED and LWD extractors and swapping the 336 ejector and no real luck.

I just got my Apex extractor and have not put in in the 3rd gen G19 yet. Probably be next week before I have time...with work and all.

I swear though...if this does not fix my G19...I am done with buying Glocks. I will trade this G19 off and replace it with an HK USP 9mm Compact with the LEM trigger and call it good.

Sad...because I have been a long time Glock fan.

-brickboy240

Sadly, having a lot of used Gen 4 on the market will probably do the trick to make Glock fix the problem.

jbglock
10-04-2012, 11:38
So you have fixed this issue on Gen 4 Glocks or similar issues on other guns?


http://highcaliberguns.com
http://thesitterdowners.com

On a gen4 17 with 115 grain ammo yes. Wasn't an issue with heavier standard, +P, or +P+ loads.
http://glockstore.com/pgroup_descrip/7_Custom+Parts+&+Accessories/7895_GEN4+Recoil+Assembly+Adapter+Ring/

jbglock
10-04-2012, 11:41
Well, sure! But all you're telling me is that hotter ammunition, or a lighter recoil spring (Why would you want to do that on a combat pistol?) allow less time for the case head to slip down the breechface. This doesn't, 'fix' the problem; it only mitigates it; and the pistol is forced to lose a lot of its versatility in the tradeoff.

Slide velocity is a factor for sure; BUT it is more of a symptom, instead of the cause. (Trust me! I've already wasted a couple of hundred dollars fooling around with this nightmare of a genuinely annoying problem. I've found a number of mechanical solutions that partially work; but none that actually solve the problem.)

ALL of Glock's 9mm pistols are affected; so are a number of 40's, as well. As far as I'm concerned, Glock GmbH/Inc. really, 'sucks rats' on this one. Unfortunately, I was already heavily invested in this G-19 before the BTF problem showed up; so, I'm going to have to stick with this miserable excuse for a self-defense/combat pistol to the very end.

I may only hope that another $75.00, or so, will finally get my G-19(RTF2) pistol to, at least, be reliable. (If the guy shooting next to me on the line keeps getting hit in the face with my short throw/high arcing brass, well ....... THAT I can live with; but, an unreliable Glock I cannot! :freak:

So why wasn't a lighter spring and issue with all previous generation guns?

Ridder
10-04-2012, 12:07
Oh yeah, what was I thinking :whistling:

In January '11, when I got my G34 Gen4, I went to the shop to pick it up and right before that they called me that they received a letter from Glock that the slide was recalled by Glock Austria.
I would get a new slide with the same serial #.

It took almost 4 months before I got my slide back.

So Glock does do recalls!

At first everything was fine, but after some 1500 rounds I started getting BTTF.
Tried all kinds of things like: LWD 9mm and .40 extractors, White Defense EDP, SS guide rod with different # ISMI springs etc etc.
I also tried all kinds of loads and powders.

Now it's not bad but also far from perfect.

Oh, forgot to tell that I received a different ejector for my 336 from Glock with installation instructions.

If results are fine with the Apex, then I will try to get one.....if they ship to the Netherlands.....

Fire_Medic
10-04-2012, 13:29
So why wasn't a lighter spring and issue with all previous generation guns?


To sum it up quickly, Glock basically reversed their problems from Gen 3 to Gen 4.

The Gen 3 guns the 9MM/40 Caliber guns had the RSA's sprung for the 9's, the Gen 4 guns have/had the RSA's sprung for the 40's.

The initial issues with the Gen 3 guns were with the 40's, now you're seeing the issues with the 9MM's.

Obviously there are other issues right now, but this is as far as the springs go.

FM

Glock2336
10-04-2012, 13:30
To sum it up quickly, Glock basically reversed their problems from Gen 3 to Gen 4.

The Gen 3 guns the 9MM/40 Caliber guns had the RSA's sprung for the 9's, the Gen 4 guns have/had the RSA's sprung for the 40's.

The initial issues with the Gen 3 guns were with the 40's, now you're seeing the issues with the 9MM's.

Obviously there are other issues right now, but this is as far as the springs go.

FM



This :steamed:

Fire_Medic
10-04-2012, 13:45
This :steamed:

Figured I have nothing to lose while I wait for the Apex part (to buy it didn't get in on the first run) so called Glock, they're going to send me a new RSA (I already have the updated one), and a new extractor. Hopefully by some miracle I get an extractor that works, we will see. Figured the new RSA can't hurt since I'm over 3K rounds on the stock one.

:faint:

nraman
10-04-2012, 14:11
So why wasn't a lighter spring and issue with all previous generation guns?

I had that problem with a Gen1 G17.