Going to jail for getting a good deal at car dealer [Archive] - Glock Talk

PDA

View Full Version : Going to jail for getting a good deal at car dealer


berto62
09-28-2012, 11:19
The president of Priority Chevrolet apologized Wednesday for the arrest of a customer in June whom the dealership mistakenly undercharged for an SUV and who resisted the company's efforts to get him to sign a new, costlier contract.

http://hamptonroads.com/2012/09/dealership-apologizes-error-customer-arrest-0

ateamer
09-28-2012, 11:26
There shouldn't have been a police report in the first place. It's a civil matter. It's not even our job to help the dealership find it for a repo.

hpracing007
09-28-2012, 11:27
Hope they get what's coming to them! Freaking hate car dealerships... scum of the earth, many of them are. Even though it looks like I'm going to have to go back for another stint and make some quick cash if I can't find a job, *shivers*

You can't trust anything a dealership says, even if it's in writing. They will do anything they can to back out of an agreement.

One of the many examples I have is I test drove this guy in an Expedition and the rear diff I think was bad on it, was making a groaning noise upon turning. We wrote the deal up to be closed with the condition the noise was fixed, at another service dept.

Client was supposed to come back in 3 days when the car was fixed to sign the paper work and go.

Came into work that day, and the car was parked nose out, straight shot out to the street.

I was instructed by the general manager to tell the client the car was fixed and the bill was $1k and everything was fine. I took it upon myself to go test drive the car myself, same noise. Asked the service manager what the deal was. He said GM got the estimate, told them no deal on the repair. Told him to park the car backwards so as soon as he rolled out of the lot, made that turn, and heard the noise, the car was his. "not our ****ing problem anymore".

Called the client myself and told him to stay away. Car went to auction the week after.

cowboywannabe
09-28-2012, 11:27
me thinks that customer will be handsomely rewarded by the dealer's insurance carrier.

BamaBud
09-28-2012, 11:31
Oh Hell!

I'm supposed to pick up a new car tomorrow. I guess I'll look over the paperwork twice after this!

wjv
09-28-2012, 11:44
Had similar happen to me.

A dealership forgot to add in the sales tax on the contract THEY wrote up and we signed. (~$750)

A month or so later I have a message on the phone that went something like: "You shortchanged us the car you bought. Send us a check for $750 NOW or we will ruin your credit rating"

If they had been polite and said "Hey, we made an error could we please discuss this" I would have worked with them.

Then they sent me a letter that literally said the same thing, and had a section attached that I was suppose to sign that basically said that I was a thief and owed them money.

I went to an attorney who looked it all over, and said I had a legal and binding contract, and that I should write them a letter telling them that I had a legal and binding contract, and if they had any problems with that, they could call him and he would explain the law to them. .

Never hear another peep outta them. . They were relying on pure intimidation to get the money from me, to correct their error.

Glockdude1
09-28-2012, 11:51
me thinks that customer will be handsomely rewarded by the dealer's insurance carrier.

I hope he collects every penny.

:cool:

FCastle88
09-28-2012, 12:11
The undercharge might not have been a mistake. Giving a buyer a very good deal, then calling them and saying there was a mistake and they owe more money is a fairly common car dealer scam. The dealer will often threaten to trash the buyer's credit or have them arrested if they don't pay the extra money. Dealers have even been known to offer a free car wash/detailing, or say they forgot to install some minor optional equipment, then when they get their hands on the vehicle they refuse to return it until you pay whatever they want. The whole thing could have been a scam that they took too far and it backfired big time. Even if it was just a mistake, it was the dealer's mistake, and the buyer was under no obligation to pay the extra $5,600.

Rinspeed
09-28-2012, 12:13
I agree the dealeer should pay but I'm not quite sure it should be 2.2 million. :rofl:

nursetim
09-28-2012, 12:22
EVERY PENNY OF 2.2 MILLION. they have harmed his credit, and if he decides to become an NP and work in a hospital, the arrest can very well be a deal breaker for credentialling to practice in the hospital setting. So yes, every red cent of the 2.2 mil.

SC Tiger
09-28-2012, 12:28
EVERY PENNY OF 2.2 MILLION. they have harmed his credit, and if he decides to become an NP and work in a hospital, the arrest can very well be a deal breaker for credentialling to practice in the hospital setting. So yes, every red cent of the 2.2 mil.

I would think the dealer could contact the credit bureaus and have his credit fixed, and also get the arrest removed from his record. I'm not sure though.

FCastle88
09-28-2012, 12:34
I agree the dealeer should pay but I'm not quite sure it should be 2.2 million. :rofl:
He won't get 2.2 million, usually the lawyers want to set the amount high, then negotiate a settlement for a fraction of the original amount. Even if he does end up getting 2.2 million, he is a nurse that now has an arrest on his record, it's possible he lost his job over this, if he didn't it will almost certainly affect his future career prospects. Getting the arrest expunged/sealed is going to take time and money, assuming he can get it done at all. Taking into account possible loss of future income for the next 20-30 years, and his time and attorney's fees trying to fix this whole mess, actual damages could run well into the 6 figures. Then there's punitive damages, if this case doesn't qualify then I don't know what does. The dealership falsely reported the vehicle stolen, and knowingly had the buyer falsely arrested. They used the police and legal system to falsely imprison a man in an attempt to extort money from him, either as part of a scam, or in an attempt to cover up losing their employer money by screwing up the contract. The employee's involved in this mess should be facing charges.

redbaron007
09-28-2012, 12:35
The dealership will pay. Not sure the insurance will cover this act.....intentionally reporting a car stolen to have it recovered?

Me thinks the attorney will have this resolved in the not too distant future, especially since the suit has been filed and amended to reflect current events.

Sawyer, the plaintiff, will be driving a very nice car for many years to come and have lots of spare $$$ in their pocket.

I think $2.2 mil is appropriate; arrested...now a record...endangering their job....using On Star to tack the vehicle (On Star might be a exposed here to for providing non-public information to non-authorized 3rd parties).....the public humiliation....The attorney for Sawyer will also see a nice payday.

:wavey:

red

FCastle88
09-28-2012, 12:40
I would think the dealer could contact the credit bureaus and have his credit fixed, and also get the arrest removed from his record. I'm not sure though.
They could possibly have his credit fixed, though the article says he payed for the vehicle in full, so I don't think his credit would be involved, as there was no default/repo, or even credit to begin with. They cannot, however, remove the arrest from his record, once the arrest is part of the public record it stays there whether the complaint is dropped or not. The only way for it to be removed is for the person to go through the long and expensive process of getting the record expunged or sealed.

Angry Fist
09-28-2012, 12:45
Screw them assbags. I hope he scores big!

devildog2067
09-28-2012, 12:47
EVERY PENNY OF 2.2 MILLION.
Easy to give away other peoples' money, eh?

Whose pocket is the 2.2 million going to come out of? It's not going to be the pocket of the employee who made the mistake, I'll tell you that much.

bulrid8
09-28-2012, 12:50
Why wasn't the dealership charge with Grand theft? The man had all signed paperwork and paid cash for the car. The dealer had no ownership over the car. So that would make a Repo, theft!

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

devildog2067
09-28-2012, 12:52
The undercharge might not have been a mistake. Giving a buyer a very good deal, then calling them and saying there was a mistake and they owe more money is a fairly common car dealer scam.

Not for $5600, it's not.

Calico Jack
09-28-2012, 12:55
Easy to give away other peoples' money, eh?

Whose pocket is the 2.2 million going to come out of? It's not going to be the pocket of the employee who made the mistake, I'll tell you that much.

Is the owner not responsible for the actions of his salesman?

CitizenOfDreams
09-28-2012, 12:57
Easy to give away other peoples' money, eh?

Whose pocket is the 2.2 million going to come out of? It's not going to be the pocket of the employee who made the mistake, I'll tell you that much.

It will come out of the pocket of the company whose employee made the "mistake". It was their employee, acting on their behalf. I don't see why they shouldn't be financially responsible.

fowl intent
09-28-2012, 12:58
Sounds to me like the buyer knew the seller made a mistake, and did everything he could do to capitalize on it. Why else would he have immediately gone and gotten a cashier's check to pay off the entire balance when he signed the new contract.

The dealership screwed up twice, once on the initial mistake, and the second time by getting law enforcement involved in what is really a civil issue. But for buyer to prevail, he has to come to court with "clean hands", and I don't think he has them.

FCastle88
09-28-2012, 13:01
Easy to give away other peoples' money, eh?

Whose pocket is the 2.2 million going to come out of? It's not going to be the pocket of the employee who made the mistake, I'll tell you that much.
The dealer's insurance will most likely pay the damages, and the employee/employees involved should be fired and facing false imprisonment charges. I find it hard to believe that one employee did all this without anyone else having some idea what was going on. If the insurance doesn't pay the damages, the owner of the dealership hired the employees and authorized them to act on his behalf, legally he's responsible for their conduct while on the job. If the dealer does have to pay he could probably sue the responsible employees, though it's doubtful he'd ever see any money. Are you saying the buyer shouldn't be compensated for being falsely imprisoned and given an arrest record in an extortion attempt?

kensb2
09-28-2012, 13:07
Sounds to me like the buyer knew the seller made a mistake, and did everything he could do to capitalize on it. Why else would he have immediately gone and gotten a cashier's check to pay off the entire balance when he signed the new contract.

The dealership screwed up twice, once on the initial mistake, and the second time by getting law enforcement involved in what is really a civil issue. But for buyer to prevail, he has to come to court with "clean hands", and I don't think he has them.

Why not? If you can afford to pay cash, in essence, then why finance? Why have another monthly bill to worry about? You logic fails severely in this case.

FCastle88
09-28-2012, 13:08
Sounds to me like the buyer knew the seller made a mistake, and did everything he could do to capitalize on it. Why else would he have immediately gone and gotten a cashier's check to pay off the entire balance when he signed the new contract.

The dealership screwed up twice, once on the initial mistake, and the second time by getting law enforcement involved in what is really a civil issue. But for buyer to prevail, he has to come to court with "clean hands", and I don't think he has them.
The buyer might have suspected something was off, or he could have thought they were giving him a good deal to make the sale. Either way, the dealership signed the contract and accepted his money, they screwed up and it's their problem. The buyer's actions might have been morally questionable, but legally he owes them nothing.

devildog2067
09-28-2012, 13:09
It will come out of the pocket of the company whose employee made the "mistake". It was their employee, acting on their behalf. I don't see why they shouldn't be financially responsible.

They certainly should be financially responsible. The question is, did they do $2.2M in damages?

devildog2067
09-28-2012, 13:10
The dealer's insurance will most likely pay the damages

I used to run a car dealership. If I filed a claim for something like this with my insurance company they would have laughed at me.

I can't say what sort of personal liability insurance my dealership's owner carried, but I can say that the dealership's policy did not cover things like this (where there is alleged criminal conduct). The dealership insurance is for times when the grease monkey forgets to tighten the lug nuts and a wheel falls off.

NeverMore1701
09-28-2012, 13:13
Sounds to me like the buyer knew the seller made a mistake, and did everything he could do to capitalize on it. Why else would he have immediately gone and gotten a cashier's check to pay off the entire balance when he signed the new contract.

The dealership screwed up twice, once on the initial mistake, and the second time by getting law enforcement involved in what is really a civil issue. But for buyer to prevail, he has to come to court with "clean hands", and I don't think he has them.

I paid for my truck the day I bought it. Why shouldn't he?

Kilrain
09-28-2012, 13:15
It's not going to be the pocket of the employee who made the mistake, I'll tell you that much.

By mistake you mean the $5600 clerical error, not the employee who told the police the car was stolen when, in fact, it was not, right?

FCastle88
09-28-2012, 13:17
Not for $5600, it's not.
Negotiating $5.6K off of $40K American brand SUV isn't exactly unheard of, they could have given him a good deal to make the sale then tried scamming the full price out of him. There's also a few comments that claim to be past customers of the dealership who say the dealership tried the same thing with them, minus the actual arrest. Given that it is a fairly common scam, and other customers say they tried the same thing in the past, I'd say at worst the buyer managed to get one over on the dealership while they were trying to get one over on him.

glock_19guy1983
09-28-2012, 13:19
I hope he gets every cent of the 2.2M. The dealership should also have to pay his legal fees. With the arrest record he has a HUGE black ball against his name for a medical career. I think settlement would be a bad move on his part. It is easy to turn a jury against a sleazy car salesman.

John's 26
09-28-2012, 13:23
Long story short, several years ago, we had traded in an, at the time, newer GMC pickup for a new, upgraded version of the same truck. We agreed on a price, in writing, and we bought the truck, signed the contract, and left the dealership. Something kept knawing at me though. The next morning, I went over the contract and they had errored and overcharged me by about $1,500 (they upped the sale price and upped the trade-in value to make the deal look better on paper, but did not up the trade-in value enough to match the deal I agreed to). That afternoon, I asked to speak to the sales manager and, contract and in-writing agreement in hand, explained the situation. He took the paperwork (copies BTW, not original) to the back to talk with the finance guy. Came back a few moments later and told me to hang on while they fixed it so I could sign a new corrected contract. No questions asked.

In the finance guys office, he showed me their copy of the agreement, showed me where they screwed up on the contract, handed me a new contract, which we went over to be sure it was correct, and I re-signed. They also apologized and gave me 3 free oil changes for my trouble. Now keep in mind we had bought several vehicles from this dealer over the years, and they always gave me a fair deal.

John

CitizenOfDreams
09-28-2012, 13:24
They certainly should be financially responsible. The question is, did they do $2.2M in damages?

That's for the court to decide. The amount will undoubtedly be negotiated to a smaller number, so 2.2 million is a perfectly sane starting point.

Just out of curiousity, how high would you estimate the damages if someone made you ineligible to work at CERN?

427
09-28-2012, 13:27
Sounds to me like the buyer knew the seller made a mistake, and did everything he could do to capitalize on it. Why else would he have immediately gone and gotten a cashier's check to pay off the entire balance when he signed the new contract.

The dealership screwed up twice, once on the initial mistake, and the second time by getting law enforcement involved in what is really a civil issue. But for buyer to prevail, he has to come to court with "clean hands", and I don't think he has them.

Once, I literally ran across the street to the bank to pay off a car I bought an hour or so earlier.

devildog2067
09-28-2012, 13:27
Given that it is a fairly common scam

I'm not going to pretend that there aren't sleazy car dealers out there, or that there aren't scams out there. Most of the reason why I left the business was that I was tired of lying to people.

That said, this is not at all a "common" scam. Once someone's signed papers and rolled off the lot, they're an owner. Any attempt to re-sign papers can just as easily end up with the person giving the car back. That's a far more likely outcome (I know, I've had to do it many times) than getting a person to sign a new contract for more money.

And $5600 on a $40k car is approaching 15% of the LTV. 99% of the time, even if a dealership wanted to try to scam someone in this way, they couldn't get the scam bought.

Car dealerships simply don't engage in illegal activity very often. There's very little upside. The car business is pretty lucrative as it is--every time a car rolls off the lot, the dealership makes ~$2500 worth of profit (on average) one way or another. An extra $5600 on a single car deal is definitely worth negotiating for, but is definitely NOT worth losing a deal for. In the big picture it simply doesn't matter. It doesn't move the needle at all.

Mayhem like Me
09-28-2012, 13:29
I agree the dealeer should pay but I'm not quite sure it should be 2.2 million. :rofl:

Think about what it would be worth to you a law abiding citizen if you were arrested for no reason, strip searched, then had to bond out on a made up charge where a valid sales contract was signed by both parties.


This was a CYA for the manager to cover his rear on a contract he made a mistake on and knew he would have to eat. It is in fact a false report of a crime and he should be charged.


IF he porvided false information to sweeten the PC for the warrant that would be another charge, I can tell you for a fact our agency would never investigate a clain like this given the circumstances in the article, I am very suspicious of what information he gave police.

The dealership has what attorneys call"exposure" in this matter.

2.2 Million seems excessive they want it to settle in the low six figures I'm sure...

devildog2067
09-28-2012, 13:30
That's for the court to decide. The amount will undoubtedly be negotiated to a smaller number, so 2.2 million is a perfectly sane starting point.

The post I responded to said that he deserved "every cent" of the $2.2M.

Just out of curiousity, how high would you estimate the damages if someone made you ineligible to work at CERN?

The damages couldn't be measured in dollars--I'd lose a unique opportunity, there's only one CERN. Honestly, however, working at CERN (or anywhere, as a particle physicist or physics professor) doesn't pay well at all. I do it part-time, now, and I have another job that pays my bills.

JohnBT
09-28-2012, 13:42
"If you can afford to pay cash, in essence, then why finance?"

To qualify for a promotion of some sort.

I got a free tv once with a new car purchase, but only because I financed. I had the money for the car in checking, but took the tv and then paid off the loan as soon as I got the paperwork. There weren't any fees involved or penalties, so my only cost was a stamp to mail a check.

Mayhem like Me
09-28-2012, 13:50
The post I responded to said that he deserved "every cent" of the $2.2M.



The damages couldn't be measured in dollars--I'd lose a unique opportunity, there's only one CERN. Honestly, however, working at CERN (or anywhere, as a particle physicist or physics professor) doesn't pay well at all. I do it part-time, now, and I have another job that pays my bills.

While the damages could not be measured in dollars, that is the only way a court can make you whole.


Once that person was printed they now have an FBI number showing the arrest.

This will take years and many hours of attorney fees to straighten out and won't happen overnight.

Say a job opportunity arises, all nurses I know have state licencing requirments and that will involve a criminal records check that will come back with an arrest for a felony in this case.

It is not something that will go away in a year.

G23Gen4.40
09-28-2012, 13:50
Easy to give away other peoples' money, eh?

Whose pocket is the 2.2 million going to come out of? It's not going to be the pocket of the employee who made the mistake, I'll tell you that much.

No the employee will be fired, the employer who hired him will have to pay. 2.2 ain't enough in my opinion.

FCastle88
09-28-2012, 14:07
I'm not going to pretend that there aren't sleazy car dealers out there, or that there aren't scams out there. Most of the reason why I left the business was that I was tired of lying to people.

That said, this is not at all a "common" scam. Once someone's signed papers and rolled off the lot, they're an owner. Any attempt to re-sign papers can just as easily end up with the person giving the car back. That's a far more likely outcome (I know, I've had to do it many times) than getting a person to sign a new contract for more money.

And $5600 on a $40k car is approaching 15% of the LTV. 99% of the time, even if a dealership wanted to try to scam someone in this way, they couldn't get the scam bought.

Car dealerships simply don't engage in illegal activity very often. There's very little upside. The car business is pretty lucrative as it is--every time a car rolls off the lot, the dealership makes ~$2500 worth of profit (on average) one way or another. An extra $5600 on a single car deal is definitely worth negotiating for, but is definitely NOT worth losing a deal for. In the big picture it simply doesn't matter. It doesn't move the needle at all.
A google search comes up with quite a few complaints about this scam, and warnings about it on several car buying tips and top car scam sites. Several posters on here have posted stories of dealers attempting this scam, both in this thread and others. Several comments on the article claim that this same dealership has tried the same thing in the past. I'd say it's more common than you want to think or admit.

I already said several times the buyer is under no obligation to sign a new contract, that's what makes attempting to get them to do so a scam. You say it like the buyer's only two options are to sign a new contract or return the car, when in fact in most cases they can simply tell the dealer to pound sand and keep the vehicle and the original contract. If the buyer is smart they know they don't have to sign a new contract, but not all buyers are smart, and as I said sometimes they'll trick the buyer into bringing the vehicle in for a free service or something and then refuse to return it. I never said attempting to get the buyer to sign a new contract was illegal, the dealer is free to ask them to do so, the buyer is free to say no. What is illegal is having him falsely arrested for not doing so.

devildog2067
09-28-2012, 14:20
You say it like the buyer's only two options are to sign a new contract or return the car, when in fact in most cases they can simply tell the dealer to pound sand and keep the vehicle and the original contract.

Depends on what's wrong with the original contract. I've never attempted to pull this "scam" but I have definitely had to bring people in to re-sign before. In most cases, what you say about the person being able to keep the car isn't true.

Sometimes it's because they didn't get financed with the terms we hoped to get them financing for. The contracts are specifically written contingent on the financing getting bought by a bank. This was rare, but it did happen. In these cases, the person had only a few options: come up with the financing themselves, come up with cash, re-sign a new contract with new terms or give the car back.

More commonly (still rare), people would have to come in and re-sign because the VIN was wrong on their contract (part of the F&I manager's job is to check the VIN on the car against the VIN on the contract, but sometimes things get missed). In this case, the person does not own the car that they're driving. They have to bring it back.

A google search comes up with quite a few complaints about this scam, and warnings about it on several car buying tips and top car scam sites. Several posters on here have posted stories of dealers attempting this scam, both in this thread and others. Several comments on the article claim that this same dealership has tried the same thing in the past. I'd say it's more common than you want to think or admit.

A google search for Glock kaboom gives 100k+ hits.. how "common" do you think those are?

I'm telling you, as a guy who made a living selling cars and running a car dealership for several years, what I saw and experienced. You can choose to believe me or not, that's up to you, but I think it's fairly obvious that I'm probably a better source of information than a google search. Google searches will not give you an accurate picture of how frequently bad things happen due to selection bias.

FCastle88
09-28-2012, 14:29
Depends on what's wrong with the original contract. I've never attempted to pull this "scam" but I have definitely had to bring people in to re-sign before. In most cases, what you say about the person being able to keep the car isn't true.

Sometimes it's because they didn't get financed with the terms we hoped to get them financing for. The contracts are specifically written contingent on the financing getting bought by a bank. This was rare, but it did happen. In these cases, the person had only a few options: come up with the financing themselves, come up with cash, re-sign a new contract with new terms or give the car back.

More commonly (still rare), people would have to come in and re-sign because the VIN was wrong on their contract (part of the F&I manager's job is to check the VIN on the car against the VIN on the contract, but sometimes things get missed). In this case, the person does not own the car that they're driving. They have to bring it back.



A google search for Glock kaboom gives 100k+ hits.. how "common" do you think those are?

I'm telling you, as a guy who made a living selling cars and running a car dealership for several years, what I saw and experienced. You can choose to believe me or not, that's up to you, but I think it's fairly obvious that I'm probably a better source of information than a google search. Google searches will not give you an accurate picture of how frequently bad things happen due to selection bias.
Your examples are a completely different issue. We're not talking about someone having their financing declined, or the VIN number screwed up on the paper work. What we are talking about is someone paying off the car in full, or getting their own financing, and then the dealer claiming that they didn't charge enough for the car and the buyer has to fork over the extra money. In this situation, depending on the contract and state laws, most of the time the buy can tell them to pound sand.

I agree that google tends to make the issue look exaggerated, but I know people who have had dealers try this scam. Are the posters on here and the people posting comments about the dealership doing it in the past all making it up?

Kilrain
09-28-2012, 14:38
Depends on what's wrong with the original contract. I've never attempted to pull this "scam" but I have definitely had to bring people in to re-sign before. In most cases, what you say about the person being able to keep the car isn't true.

Sometimes it's because they didn't get financed with the terms we hoped to get them financing for. The contracts are specifically written contingent on the financing getting bought by a bank. This was rare, but it did happen. In these cases, the person had only a few options: come up with the financing themselves, come up with cash, re-sign a new contract with new terms or give the car back.

More commonly (still rare), people would have to come in and re-sign because the VIN was wrong on their contract (part of the F&I manager's job is to check the VIN on the car against the VIN on the contract, but sometimes things get missed). In this case, the person does not own the car that they're driving. They have to bring it back.

A google search for Glock kaboom gives 100k+ hits.. how "common" do you think those are?

I'm telling you, as a guy who made a living selling cars and running a car dealership for several years, what I saw and experienced. You can choose to believe me or not, that's up to you, but I think it's fairly obvious that I'm probably a better source of information than a google search.

Sure someone can keep the car. The dealership then has the option, depending on the error in the contract, to sue them and/or repossess the vehicle. It's just that simple, it is civil contract dispute no matter how you cut it. Additionally, no matter what the wording is in the contract, the proper method of resolution is either through negotiations or civil court.

Google searches will not give you an accurate picture of how frequently bad things happen due to selection bias.

Google won't but some random guy on a discussion board will? :tongueout:

(This was just a little jab, I believe you have more direct knowledge about it than I but I just couldn't resist....)

devildog2067
09-28-2012, 14:47
then the dealer claiming that they didn't charge enough for the car and the buyer has to fork over the extra money. In this situation, depending on the contract and state laws, most of the time the buy can tell them to pound sand.

I'm not disagreeing with you.

What I am saying is, there is a good chance that if a dealership pulls this kind of thing, the person will say "screw it, here's your car back" and the dealership will lose the deal entirely. Once a car rolls over the curb, dealerships are very very reluctant to mess with the paperwork for any reason. Trying to chisel another few hundred or few thousand dollars out of someone simply isn't worth taking a chance on most of the time.

Are the posters on here and the people posting comments about the dealership doing it in the past all making it up?
Of course not. I'm sure it happens sometimes. In other cases, I know for a fact (because I've seen it) this is how people remember deals where they didn't get financed on the terms that they hoped they would.

I remember one time I sold a car to a guy, good credit, got him 4%-ish, straightforward hassle-free deal. The next day he quit his job. The day after that, the bank called to confirm his employment, and when they discovered he didn't work there anymore they yanked his financing. I had to call him back in and explain that he either needed to sign a new contract at 7% (with a lender that didn't do income verification) or give the car back. He then proceeded to tell anyone who would listen that we had "screwed him by changing the contract after it was signed."

Sure someone can keep the car.
Ah, I see what you're saying. Yes, of course someone "can" keep the car, I'm not going to go to their house and take it.

It's just that simple, it is civil contract dispute no matter how you cut it.

I called the cops a few times--when cars didn't come back from test drives, for example. Also, one time we had a guy write a check for a car, I called the bank to make sure he had the funds, and after he left the dealership he drove straight to the bank and cleaned out his account. I forget the details of why the cops were involved but I think that made it criminal fraud instead of a civil thing.


Google won't but some random guy on a discussion board will?

I said it on the internet, so it must be true!

Kilrain
09-28-2012, 14:52
I called the cops a few times--when cars didn't come back from test drives, for example. Also, one time we had a guy write a check for a car, I called the bank to make sure he had the funds, and after he left the dealership he drove straight to the bank and cleaned out his account. I forget the details of why the cops were involved but I think that made it criminal fraud instead of a civil thing.

Sure, sure, but you are talking about straight out, blatantly obvious crimes being committed. In that case, of course law enforcement should be involved. This case, however, appears on it's face to be nothing of the sort. Kinda apples and bananas comparison.

I said it on the internet, so it must be true!

Yes, yes! :supergrin:

tslex
09-28-2012, 14:54
Shortly after I became a lawyer, my mother- and father-in-law bought their first ever nearly new car. Bought a 1-y-o car from a dealer.

They get it home and three days later get a call that "A mistake was made on the deal" and they were "improperly undercharged" as the result of a "mistake in the negotiations" and they needed to pay an additional $2,189.99 (or some similar precise figure) or return the car.

It was a pure scam -- the contract they signed was clear as glass and this was just a hold-up.

I'm a second-career lawyer, so I was 36 and was working at one of the the biggest law firms in town. So instead of the immigrant car mechanic with the accented English, the dealer gets a call from the middle aged lawyer (hey THEY didn't know I'd been practicing about a month) at the big, bad firm. I come on very strong, make some noises about the attorney general's office and "quiet enjoyment" and what not. It was the last they were heard from.

But I wonder how many other folks were strong-armed into paying more.

G23Gen4TX
09-28-2012, 15:05
I want to see the specs of the two cars. Did he really get a car that is worth over $5000 more than the one he originally purchased?

G23Gen4TX
09-28-2012, 15:10
Also, when I bought my 2006 Honda minivan my then wife, decided to switch color in the last second (don't get me started on that). The dealership said fine but then they wanted $700 more for a car with the same exact specs but different color.

We walked out. Bought the car in another dealership for the original price.

redbaron007
09-28-2012, 15:46
....snip....

But I wonder how many other folks were strong-armed into paying more.

This is a question I wondered about too. Another reason this dealership my not want to go through discovery. There could be a bilgillion of these laying around. If any more pop up from the past and notify the AG of the state......well...the dealer may have some splainin to do. :supergrin:


:wavey:

red

Drilled
09-28-2012, 15:51
I don't buy new cars very often. But when I do I insist on the same price employees get or better depending on time of year.

Since I have friends that work for the car companies I always know what they would pay out the door on a vehicle.

nursetim
09-28-2012, 16:40
Due to the Mala en sae (sp?) involved, I still stand by my every cent remark. Yes I'll spend a stupid companies money freely. They deserve to get hosed for their greedy and malicious act.

RightGlock1
09-28-2012, 17:36
About 7 years ago, I traded in a 1994 Mitsubishi Montero to a local dealership. The vehicle had a broken woodruff key in the crankshaft. It was going to need a new crank.
The dealership allowed me $ 1,800 on a trade in. A dealership employee bought it, put an engine in it and did some off roading with it. The truck was stuck on a trail with mud and grass. Hot catalytic converter ignited the grass, truck caught fire and burned to a crisp.

The dealer tried to get us to come in and sign new paperwork that would essentially increase our purchase contract by the $ 1,800 dollars. Guess who the guy was that called us for the paperwork? The one that bought the truck, he was the finance guy.

In the nicest of ways, I told him to fornicate himself several times. It was shocking that they would do that. We did report it directly to the owner of the dealership. They did not do squat. I was expecting anything from it, I thought the guy should be reprimanded.

Dragoon44
09-28-2012, 17:38
Sounds like sloppy police work to me. If the guy paid cash then he should have had a receipt for the vehicle. The police should have investigated it more thoroughly determined it was a Civil matter and done nothing. ( Other than arresting the manager for filing a false report.)

RonS
09-28-2012, 19:05
Car dealers are mostly scum. Then there are the bad ones.

My wife worked in the business office and did title work at a local dealer. She quit because she couldn't face the customers when we ran into them in stores and social functions, it was too embarassing to know what the dealer did to them. Heck, the service department even cheated her on a repair while she was working there.

They had one old farmer who was a widower. I think they sold him something like 8 vehicles in 2 years. He was old and half senile and lonely and would come in and the salesmen would sell him on the latest thing. They made a mint off of him.

427
09-28-2012, 19:31
I want to see the specs of the two cars. Did he really get a car that is worth over $5000 more than the one he originally purchased?

The more expensive one probably got the protection package - paint sealant, fabric/vinyl/leather protectant, and undercoating. :whistling:

One can get all that done for under $50 and an afternoon.

larry_minn
09-28-2012, 21:14
Hope they get what's coming to them! Freaking hate car dealerships... scum of the earth, many of them are. Even though it looks like I'm going to have to go back for another stint and make some quick cash if I can't find a job, *shivers*

You can't trust anything a dealership says, even if it's in writing. They will do anything they can to back out of an agreement.

One of the many examples I have is I test drove this guy in an Expedition and the rear diff I think was bad on it, was making a groaning noise upon turning. We wrote the deal up to be closed with the condition the noise was fixed, at another service dept.

Client was supposed to come back in 3 days when the car was fixed to sign the paper work and go.

Came into work that day, and the car was parked nose out, straight shot out to the street.

I was instructed by the general manager to tell the client the car was fixed and the bill was $1k and everything was fine. I took it upon myself to go test drive the car myself, same noise. Asked the service manager what the deal was. He said GM got the estimate, told them no deal on the repair. Told him to park the car backwards so as soon as he rolled out of the lot, made that turn, and heard the noise, the car was his. "not our ****ing problem anymore".

Called the client myself and told him to stay away. Car went to auction the week after.

Had similar on NEW pickup. On test drive there was noise in front end. Seems they got a batch of "non-concentric" shafts. So I said "fix it before I even consider" They said. "we will fix it ONLY under warrenty" I didn't buy.
I had signed in ink contract with dates, unit #s etc. Was not worth paper it was written on.
I deal on car/truck KNOWING the sales guy will lie. That way you don't get upset.

ilgunguygt
09-28-2012, 21:54
Had similar on NEW pickup. On test drive there was noise in front end. Seems they got a batch of "non-concentric" shafts. So I said "fix it before I even consider" They said. "we will fix it ONLY under warrenty" I didn't buy.
I had signed in ink contract with dates, unit #s etc. Was not worth paper it was written on.
I deal on car/truck KNOWING the sales guy will lie. That way you don't get upset.
That may have been poor explaaining by the dealer. When I was a toyota tech, if a car failed the delivery inspection, or if there was a problem before it was purchased we were not allowed to fix it. The concept is that the dealer could "make up problems" to rip off the manufacturer by making them pay for the repairs. Until a customer paid for it all we could do was send it back to Toyota.

jp3975
09-28-2012, 22:33
Negotiating $5.6K off of $40K American brand SUV isn't exactly unheard of, they could have given him a good deal to make the sale then tried scamming the full price out of him. There's also a few comments that claim to be past customers of the dealership who say the dealership tried the same thing with them, minus the actual arrest. Given that it is a fairly common scam, and other customers say they tried the same thing in the past, I'd say at worst the buyer managed to get one over on the dealership while they were trying to get one over on him.

It was my understanding that the buyer decided they wanted a different color. The new color cost more with the better options, but they forgot to add the new price in the contract.

So that's why they where undercharged by so much.

The dealer should have just accepted their mistake. After reading that story, Id never buy a car from them. Id imagine they've lost a lot of sales over this.

CarryTexas
09-28-2012, 23:01
I am sure if the error was in the dealer's favor they would have made every effort to refund his money... :rofl:

Peace Warrior
09-28-2012, 23:12
Almost the same thing happened to me once, but the dealer made the whole "mistake" thing about not be able to find financing. My lawyer-Pastor's advice was to take back the vehicle and call it a wash as the dealer's owner was also a Christian. We both walked away clean.

I do not blame the car buyer on this one though. I hope the dealership has to pay the 1.1 mill for locking this guy up. They went WAY WAY WAY over the line sending him to jail.

Peace Warrior
09-28-2012, 23:12
I am sure if the error was in the dealer's favor they would have made every effort to refund his money... :rofl:
Oh yeah... :whistling:

ray9898
09-28-2012, 23:14
I do not see how this arrest could have happened without blatant false statements from someone at the dealership. Hopefully one of them takes the ride.

jollygreen
09-28-2012, 23:14
Whose pocket is the 2.2 million going to come out of? It's not going to be the pocket of the employee who made the mistake, I'll tell you that much.

Sure doesn't read like "the employee."

He said his staff erred when they sold the SUV to Sawyer for about $5,600 too little and erred again when they went to police.

Again,

When Sawyer did not return to the dealership, Priority staff continued their attempts to contact him via phone, text message and hand-delivered letters. They eventually contacted police

Sounds like this was a conspiracy to defraud.

Yeah, I'd say it's worth $2.2 million even though that's just the amount plaintiff is asking for. Doesn't mean he'll get it. They'll probably settle.

Peace Warrior
09-28-2012, 23:32
I do not see how this arrest could have happened without blatant false statements from someone at the dealership. Hopefully one of them takes the ride.
IMO, the Cops are squeaky clean on this one.

They may not be so smart, mind you, but I promise you they were smart enough to have the i's dotted and t's crossed as far as actually taking someone to jail on behalf of the dealership. (At least I would freekin hope so!)

No, the dealership's owner is going to have to work to save his butt on this one, and rightfully so IMHO. A million bucks sounds fair to me; however, since I am bias towards the buyer on this one, I say 2.2 mill sounds fair, and settling for 1 million seems reasonable.

ray9898
09-28-2012, 23:41
IMO, the Cops are squeaky clean on this one.

They may not be so smart, mind you, but I promise you they were smart enough to have the i's dotted and t's crossed as far as actually taking someone to jail on behalf of the dealership. (At least I would freekin hope so!)

No, the dealership's owner is going to have to work to save his butt on this one, and rightfully so IMHO. A million bucks sounds fair to me; however, since I am bias towards the buyer on this one, I say 2.2 mill sounds fair, and settling for 1 million seems reasonable.

It actually looks like LE obtained a warrant so that means a judge also agreed with what was presented as evidence by the dealer.

Peace Warrior
09-28-2012, 23:48
It actually looks like LE obtained a warrant so that means a judge also agreed with what was presented as evidence by the dealer.
'Ere ya go.

ETA: Did you read Dragoon44's post? He offers a different perspective from your side of the 'thin blue line.'

KommieforniaGlocker
09-29-2012, 05:48
Watch for bankruptcy or "re-structuring" or "new ownership." it's not like car dealerships were loved And cherished before. This kind of publicity is kiss of death.

What is aggravating is calling the police on a customer for a mistake they made, but that is not unheard of a dealership. Did that to a client of mine, when they made a similar mistake, but his was slightly different. His salesman even went as far as to call me to tell me I had illegally insured a vehicle. (ignorant prick). I took the liberty of commenting and asking the owner when I ran into him at the Christmas tree Auction at the country club in front of ALOT of other people. :whistling:

tantrix
09-29-2012, 06:00
They certainly should be financially responsible. The question is, did they do $2.2M in damages?

In liability? Absolutely.

The dealer elected to play hardball, and they're about (I hope) to lose. If it wasn't worth $2.2M to them, they should have left it alone.

lunarspeak
09-29-2012, 06:20
I remember one time I sold a car to a guy, good credit, got him 4%-ish, straightforward hassle-free deal. The next day he quit his job. The day after that, the bank called to confirm his employment, and when they discovered he didn't work there anymore they yanked his financing. I had to call him back in and explain that he either needed to sign a new contract at 7% (with a lender that didn't do income verification) or give the car back. He then proceeded to tell anyone who would listen that we had "screwed him by changing the contract after it was signed."
!

you did change the contract after he had signed it..and it was a scumball move...not everyone that quits thier jobs is now broke and cant pay thier bills maybe he had a plan or was taking some time to do someting else with his life.

if i was him id ran out every ounce of gas id put in the thing and then brought it back and told you where to shove that 3%

maybe you should have not given him the car untill the bank says it was ok and all the loose ends were tied up..but like MOST car salesman they only care about getting you to sign the papers and to get your butt off the lot.

what you did could be compared to a mob shakedown...this guy went car shopping,went thru all the hub bub of paperwork, a contract was signed...3 days later you called him and said hey...we need 3 more percent or we take your car back.

eagle359
09-29-2012, 06:48
In 1988 I bought a 1989 Ford F-150. My trade-in was paid for and I had the title. The deal was made. I left my trade-in at the dealership and drove home a loaner while my new truck was being washed, etc. I was to come by the next day after work and pickup my pickup. I got a call at work that there was a "problem" and that the dealership was going to have to have another $700 or so. In 1988 $700 was a fair amount of money-or at least for me it was. I went to the dealer after work, I told them that the new price did not work for me and asked to get my car back. Well my car was not on the lot and they did not know where it was-so I was just going to have to take their new deal. I asked if I might use their phone to call the police and report a stolen car. They looked at me and laughed. I was told that it was their property and they could do what they wanted to with it. I asked "Even without the title?". I had it in my pocket and showed it to them. They stopped laughing. In the end I got the truck and a rear bumper at the original price. It is a game to them and you had better understand that.

kiole
09-29-2012, 07:10
you did change the contract after he had signed it..and it was a scumball move...not everyone that quits thier jobs is now broke and cant pay thier bills maybe he had a plan or was taking some time to do someting else with his life.

if i was him id ran out every ounce of gas id put in the thing and then brought it back and told you where to shove that 3%

maybe you should have not given him the car untill the bank says it was ok and all the loose ends were tied up..but like MOST car salesman they only care about getting you to sign the papers and to get your butt off the lot.

what you did could be compared to a mob shakedown...this guy went car shopping,went thru all the hub bub of paperwork, a contract was signed...3 days later you called him and said hey...we need 3 more percent or we take your car back.

Uh no it isn't anything like a mob shake down. You sign a contract that says contingent on the lender accepting financing.. In this case the guy got the best rate through a lender who verifies income. The guy said he makes x amount of dollars at his employer. Based on this info ill bet the computer said he would most likely get the financing. The guy then quit his job which was a determining factor on his financing. They verified his employment after he quit therefore the original contract was invalidated because his income level was no longer valid...

Every car I've bought has specifically stated the entire deal is contingent on the acceptance of my credit application by the chosen lender. It then clearly has stated if financing falls through the vehicle is still the dealers, and if the terms change I may return the car.

.264 magnum
09-29-2012, 07:14
I'm not going to pretend that there aren't sleazy car dealers out there, or that there aren't scams out there. Most of the reason why I left the business was that I was tired of lying to people.

That said, this is not at all a "common" scam. Once someone's signed papers and rolled off the lot, they're an owner. Any attempt to re-sign papers can just as easily end up with the person giving the car back. That's a far more likely outcome (I know, I've had to do it many times) than getting a person to sign a new contract for more money.

And $5600 on a $40k car is approaching 15% of the LTV. 99% of the time, even if a dealership wanted to try to scam someone in this way, they couldn't get the scam bought.

Car dealerships simply don't engage in illegal activity very often. There's very little upside. The car business is pretty lucrative as it is--every time a car rolls off the lot, the dealership makes ~$2500 worth of profit (on average) one way or another. An extra $5600 on a single car deal is definitely worth negotiating for, but is definitely NOT worth losing a deal for. In the big picture it simply doesn't matter. It doesn't move the needle at all.

I think you are conceptually correct. However, I've had the, "sorry we need to redo the contract and you owe us another X$s" and, "no you can't have your trade back because we already auctioned it off" scam attempted on me twice.



A quick FU solved the problem both times.

Rabid Rabbit
09-29-2012, 07:19
I used to run a car dealership. If I filed a claim for something like this with my insurance company they would have laughed at me.

I can't say what sort of personal liability insurance my dealership's owner carried, but I can say that the dealership's policy did not cover things like this (where there is alleged criminal conduct). The dealership insurance is for times when the grease monkey forgets to tighten the lug nuts and a wheel falls off.

They don't carry some kind of umbrella policy to cover the weird unanticipated kind of screwups?

.264 magnum
09-29-2012, 07:30
In 1988 I bought a 1989 Ford F-150. My trade-in was paid for and I had the title. The deal was made. I left my trade-in at the dealership and drove home a loaner while my new truck was being washed, etc. I was to come by the next day after work and pickup my pickup. I got a call at work that there was a "problem" and that the dealership was going to have to have another $700 or so. In 1988 $700 was a fair amount of money-or at least for me it was. I went to the dealer after work, I told them that the new price did not work for me and asked to get my car back. Well my car was not on the lot and they did not know where it was-so I was just going to have to take their new deal. I asked if I might use their phone to call the police and report a stolen car. They looked at me and laughed. I was told that it was their property and they could do what they wanted to with it. I asked "Even without the title?". I had it in my pocket and showed it to them. They stopped laughing. In the end I got the truck and a rear bumper at the original price. It is a game to them and you had better understand that.

Just a few years ago my brother and his wife visited a well known and generally well liked car dealership in Fort Worth.
They told the sales guy, "we are just looking today and will likely buy next week". The guy said great. They drove the car inquired about pricing and prepared to leave. Somehow during the discussion the sale guy ended up with their keys and he literally threw them high onto the roof of the building and told them that A. now they had to drive the car home B. since they were going to drive the car home they might as well fill out the paper work and buy the car.

My brother made the guy go up on the roof and retrieve the keys. The next week he bought a nearly identical car from another dealership.

jpa
09-29-2012, 07:34
I agree with Dragoon. Responding to any stolen vehicle complaint from a dealership would have me skeptical to begin with. As soon as they started breaking out contracts and dealer paperwork I probably would have stopped them and said "civil matter, I'm out."

hpracing007
09-29-2012, 08:00
Just to let out a little more hate for the car dealerships, the other way they screw someone out of money, involving the customer, but salesman money is they ask the customer to come resign because of a "mistake".

The date of the deal gets pushed to next month. That was the car salesguy's 20th car. The car he needed to get his 20 car bonus, to get his 20 car % rate. The car he needed to hit the nearly impossible spiff the manager put out. :steamed:

Paul53
09-29-2012, 12:05
What do you call a nurse with an arrest record? An ex-nurse. Every 2 years we renew our license, and have to answer questions about arrest, etc. Say yes to arrest and you got a lot of hurt coming your way. Lie and get caught, never see a nursing license again. Employers always check criminal records because we have access to ALL the medication. Doctors dont get access to medications.

Rabbi
09-29-2012, 13:36
... because we have access to ALL the medication. Doctors dont get access to medications.

I dont disagree with your post, but what you said here is not always true on a number of levels.

devildog2067
09-29-2012, 13:48
you did change the contract after he had signed it..and it was a scumball move...

You refuse to see the facts of the situation, and instead you'd rather throw a tantrum about how car dealers are scumballs. Thanks for proving my point.


not everyone that quits thier jobs is now broke and cant pay thier bills maybe he had a plan or was taking some time to do someting else with his life.

I don't know or care why he quit his job.

More to the point, neither did the bank.

The bank lent him money because they thought he had an income. When they learned that it was not in fact true, they decided they didn't want to lend him any money.

"No job, no loan" is a pretty universal rule of lending.

maybe you should have not given him the car untill the bank says it was ok and all the loose ends were tied up...but like MOST car salesman they only care about getting you to sign the papers and to get your butt off the lot.

Bull****. If I genuinely thought there was a chance he wouldn't get funded, I would not have let him take the car. No way in hell I'm taking the chance that he doesn't bring it back, or gets into an accident or whatever, unless I'm sure he can buy it.

People drive away on a signature, contingent on financing, literally millions of times per day. 99.99999999% of those deals work out fine.

norton
09-29-2012, 14:05
Sounds like alot of mistakes were made in this case. Sloppy work at the dealership, sloppy police work and a greedy customer.
Guess who wins in this case?

The lawyers.

RonS
09-29-2012, 15:04
If I were the buyer I would offer to set down with the owner of the dealership. He could have one opportunity to convince me that his dealership would never do anything that stupid again and one chance to offer me compensation. If he failed he could live with the consequences, if he did right by me I would offer to appear on the local TV news, shake his hand and call no hard feelings.

For an instance of false arrest I would expect a letter of apology that clearly stated that the dealership was 100% at fault. I would expect not to make any payments on that vehicle.

Peace Warrior
09-29-2012, 19:42
Sounds like alot of mistakes were made in this case. Sloppy work at the dealership, sloppy police work and a greedy customer.
Guess who wins in this case?

The lawyers.
How were the Police sloppy? I'm thinking they were double checking and covering their butts the whole way.

zoyter2
09-29-2012, 20:17
............... Yes I'll spend a stupid companies money freely. They deserve to get hosed for their greedy and malicious act.

I agree. It is beyond my understanding how anyone could possibly think that this type of behavior from a dealership is only worth "how much it actually cost the customer". That is sorta contrary to the entire reason lawsuits are allowed punitive damages. I know that at least two of our local dealerships would pay the 2.2 and chuckle about the slap on the wrist.

You gotta make them feel the pain to change the behavior.

Mayhem like Me
09-30-2012, 06:17
How were the Police sloppy? I'm thinking they were double checking and covering their butts the whole way.

This is gng, the police are always wrong to some extent.


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

norton
09-30-2012, 06:45
This is gng, the police are always wrong to some extent.


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

I don't blame the Po Po. They didn't initiate the situation. Something tells me we don't know the whole story from the short article that was posted by the op.
Most of my blame goes to the customer and the dealership. This could have been handled in a civil manner if parties weren't out to screw one another.

roger123
09-30-2012, 06:47
I live in VA Beach and from what I've seen around here the police were probably only too happy to go and get this guy. They seem a little "intense" around here. Wouldn't the guy have a receipt in his hand if he paid cash for the car to show them?

I've only bought 5 new cars in my life but every time it went something like, look at the car, decide to buy the car, get money for the car (lately I've been going with the pre-approved check from the bank), hand them the money, get the car and leave.

I've never had any car dealer tell me to take the car, sign here and then go and figure out the money. I may be naive here but wouldn't paying for the car be a good idea all around before driving it off the lot? No other purchase I make works like that so why does it happen in car deals?

I guess they want to get you into the car so you're emotionally attached then they can screw you latter but it seems to bring in a lot of other issues down the road.

Drain You
09-30-2012, 06:57
Rebecca Colaw, Sawyer's attorney, said she appreciates that Ellmer is taking responsibility for what happened. But she said he will have to do more than say he's sorry and let Sawyer keep the SUV.
"An apology is not enough," she said.



What a loser.

Gallium
09-30-2012, 07:06
Easy to give away other peoples' money, eh?

Whose pocket is the 2.2 million going to come out of? It's not going to be the pocket of the employee who made the mistake, I'll tell you that much.


SW,

Google "vicarious/employer liability".

If it's that easy to have someone arrested over my screwup then it should be like wise that easy for me to face punishment to the same severity as the person who suffered. You are (essentially :)) a mathematician. In your professional experience, what is the potential long term damage to the plaintiff, especially as NurseTim points out, he wants to become a NP, or CRNA (certified registered nurse anesthesiologist)?

What is the damage to you if you are "unlawfully" arrested, printed, and placed in jail for a couple of hours? It is never really "expunged".

frizz
09-30-2012, 07:26
Easy to give away other peoples' money, eh?

Whose pocket is the 2.2 million going to come out of? It's not going to be the pocket of the employee who made the mistake, I'll tell you that much.

When you do something bad you deserved to be punished. What this dealer did was despicable. Employers are responsible for what their employees do (respondeat superior), and this wasn't just some screwup by a minion; a manager did this.

frizz
09-30-2012, 07:31
Sounds to me like the buyer knew the seller made a mistake, and did everything he could do to capitalize on it. Why else would he have immediately gone and gotten a cashier's check to pay off the entire balance when he signed the new contract.

The dealership screwed up twice, once on the initial mistake, and the second time by getting law enforcement involved in what is really a civil issue. But for buyer to prevail, he has to come to court with "clean hands", and I don't think he has them.
Unclean hands? For a willful tort? :rofl:

frizz
09-30-2012, 07:34
They certainly should be financially responsible. The question is, did they do $2.2M in damages?
That is to be determined at trial.You also have to look at the punitive damages.

frizz
09-30-2012, 07:38
I used to run a car dealership. If I filed a claim for something like this with my insurance company they would have laughed at me.

That says a lot. If you were in this business, then you should know about the unethical sleaze that permeates this industry.

Considering what a sleazy, high-volume dealership like this has made on screwing people, they are getting off easy even at 2.2Mil.

devildog2067
09-30-2012, 07:46
Google "vicarious/employer liability".

Like I said, I ran a car dealership. One of my guys once got drunk and drove one of our cars through someone's house. I know about liability.

If it's that easy to have someone arrested over my screwup then it should be like wise that easy for me to face punishment to the same severity as the person who suffered.

Imagine that this person didn't work for a dealership for a moment, but was a private citizen who had sold a car privately. He files a false police report and gets the buyer arrested. Who would you sue for a few million bucks in that case? No one.

As soon as a business with deep pockets gets involved, all of a sudden people are clamoring for blood. This lawsuit mentality is why it's so expensive to do business in this country.

Gareth68
09-30-2012, 07:54
As soon as a business with deep pockets gets involved, all of a sudden people are clamoring for blood. This lawsuit mentality is why it's so expensive to do business in this country.

I agree.

Unfortunately, you can't lock the owner of the dealership up and give him a false criminal record....which would be fair.

Since an eye for an eye is not civilized, you are left with working out a fiscal solution.

:dunno:

devildog2067
09-30-2012, 07:57
Unfortunately, you can't lock the owner of the dealership up and give him a false criminal record....which would be fair.

What makes you think that would be fair? Heck, what makes you think the owner had any idea about it in the first place? I only saw my dealership's owner twice a year when he came to visit his money. I never ran deals by him. He wasn't involved in the day-to-day operations at all.

Figure out who filed the false police report and throw his ass in jail.

frizz
09-30-2012, 08:14
Long story short, several years ago, we had traded in an, at the time, newer GMC pickup for a new, upgraded version of the same truck. We agreed on a price, in writing, and we bought the truck, signed the contract, and left the dealership. Something kept knawing at me though. The next morning, I went over the contract and they had errored and overcharged me by about $1,500 (they upped the sale price and upped the trade-in value to make the deal look better on paper, but did not up the trade-in value enough to match the deal I agreed to). That afternoon, I asked to speak to the sales manager and, contract and in-writing agreement in hand, explained the situation. He took the paperwork (copies BTW, not original) to the back to talk with the finance guy. Came back a few moments later and told me to hang on while they fixed it so I could sign a new corrected contract. No questions asked.

In the finance guys office, he showed me their copy of the agreement, showed me where they screwed up on the contract, handed me a new contract, which we went over to be sure it was correct, and I re-signed. They also apologized and gave me 3 free oil changes for my trouble. Now keep in mind we had bought several vehicles from this dealer over the years, and they always gave me a fair deal.

John

A rare gem. Stick with them and pray that they are never bought out.

frizz
09-30-2012, 08:21
I'm not going to pretend that there aren't sleazy car dealers out there, or that there aren't scams out there. Most of the reason why I left the business was that I was tired of lying to people.

That said, this is not at all a "common" scam. Once someone's signed papers and rolled off the lot, they're an owner. Any attempt to re-sign papers can just as easily end up with the person giving the car back. That's a far more likely outcome (I know, I've had to do it many times) than getting a person to sign a new contract for more money.

And $5600 on a $40k car is approaching 15% of the LTV. 99% of the time, even if a dealership wanted to try to scam someone in this way, they couldn't get the scam bought.

Car dealerships simply don't engage in illegal activity very often. There's very little upside. The car business is pretty lucrative as it is--every time a car rolls off the lot, the dealership makes ~$2500 worth of profit (on average) one way or another. An extra $5600 on a single car deal is definitely worth negotiating for, but is definitely NOT worth losing a deal for. In the big picture it simply doesn't matter. It doesn't move the needle at all.

I was about to apologize to you for my insinuation, but if you were "getting tired of lying" then you have a problem, and you don't deserve an apology.

Note that he changed one color SUV for the same one in a different color. The "trim" may have been different. Or maybe they were the same except for color, and the dealership was going to stick him with full price, but got sloppy.

frizz
09-30-2012, 08:37
Car dealerships simply don't engage in illegal activity very often.

Maybe. But unethical activity is the norm. You have admitted to this behavior yourself.

Gallium
09-30-2012, 08:49
...

Imagine that this person didn't work for a dealership for a moment, but was a private citizen who had sold a car privately. He files a false police report and gets the buyer arrested. Who would you sue for a few million bucks in that case? No one.

As soon as a business with deep pockets gets involved, all of a sudden people are clamoring for blood. This lawsuit mentality is why it's so expensive to do business in this country.


Hey, if in your scenario it happened where I was born, there is a very distinct possibility I would have gone back to his house and burnt it to the ground AND probably beat the **** out of him, AND take his money by force, AND he'd have to STFU on fear of imminent death. Seeing that I love dogs, and I'm not truly malicious, I would probably not shoot his dog on the spot.

Or I could have paid someone about $85 US dollars to do all of that, and any other private citizen there knows how thin the veneer is between civilization and savagery.

But, :supergrin: since this is the great US of A, I play by the rules. If it were a private citizen, crap like that would not have transpired in the 1st place, and no police agency or officer would have intervened in what would have been IDed as a strict civil matter.

To answer your question, if the same scenario got to a point of my arrest, and the complainant was a private citizen, I want everything he has, as allowed by the law.

devildog2067
09-30-2012, 08:50
I was about to apologize to you for my insinuation, but if you were "getting tired of lying" then you have a problem, and you don't deserve an apology.


There are degrees of lying. I never cheated people, but when people asked me "should I buy this car" what was I going to say? Americans buy too many cars? Cars last for 10-15 years? No. I said some salesman ****.

I am massively disinterested in your apology. I was in the car business for years, I've been out of it for years, and I'm very grateful for the experience and the things that I learned.

Gallium
09-30-2012, 08:59
There are degrees of lying. ...


Somewhat off-topic, say, don't you have a PhD? :tongueout::supergrin::tongueout:


(jest funning with you, please don't reject my apology and make my goldfish cry :cool:)

badge315
09-30-2012, 09:11
Imagine that this person didn't work for a dealership for a moment, but was a private citizen who had sold a car privately. He files a false police report and gets the buyer arrested. Who would you sue for a few million bucks in that case? No one.

You could always file a claim against that person's homeowner's policy (assuming they had one).

As soon as a business with deep pockets gets involved, all of a sudden people are clamoring for blood. This lawsuit mentality is why it's so expensive to do business in this country.

No, the reason that it's so expensive to do business in this country is because of unethical behavior by businesses and frivolous lawsuits. And if businesses behaved properly, at least they wouldn't be subject to legitimate lawsuits. But the dealership didn't just engage in unethical behavior...they engaged in criminal behavior. The employee who filed a false police report should be imprisoned and the dealership should be held financially responsible, because the criminal act was committed on its behalf. You will never convince me that the dealership's owner bears no responsibility for this incident. Even if he didn't actively encourage his employees to engage in such unscrupulous tactics, at the very least he turned a blind eye to it.

frizz
09-30-2012, 09:16
You refuse to see the facts of the situation, and instead you'd rather throw a tantrum about how car dealers are scumballs. Thanks for proving my point.


You already admitted to making a living by lying to people when you were in auto sales.

frizz
09-30-2012, 09:19
Sounds like alot of mistakes were made in this case. Sloppy work at the dealership, sloppy police work and a greedy customer.
Guess who wins in this case?

The lawyers.
You don't know that he was a greedy customer. What makes you so sure that the second vehicle was priced at that much more.

And since you say the lawyers are the ones who win, you are even further off the mark. First off, the dealership doesn't deserve to win anything. Second, do you think lawyers should work for free? Do you work for free?

frizz
09-30-2012, 09:21
If I were the buyer I would offer to set down with the owner of the dealership. He could have one opportunity to convince me that his dealership would never do anything that stupid again and one chance to offer me compensation. If he failed he could live with the consequences, if he did right by me I would offer to appear on the local TV news, shake his hand and call no hard feelings.

For an instance of false arrest I would expect a letter of apology that clearly stated that the dealership was 100% at fault. I would expect not to make any payments on that vehicle.

Until you have been wrongly accused of a felony, arrested, and jailed AND as a result had a lot of future career obstacles thrown in you path, you don't know what you'd do.

devildog2067
09-30-2012, 09:27
You already admitted to making a living by lying to people when you were in auto sales.

http://thebreakthrough.org/blog/The%20point-you.jpg

Once again--my conscience is clear. I never, ever cheated anyone.

I am 100% sure that there are people out there who think I did.

I never lied about the condition of a car or the terms of a deal.

I *did* agree with a woman trading in a Tahoe on an Eclipse convertible when she said her three kids would fit in the backseat. It wasn't a lie, but it wasn't the truth either. I got tired of dancing on that fine line.

frizz
09-30-2012, 09:31
There are degrees of lying. I never cheated people, but when people asked me "should I buy this car" what was I going to say? Americans buy too many cars? Cars last for 10-15 years? No. I said some salesman ****.

I am massively disinterested in your apology. I was in the car business for years, I've been out of it for years, and I'm very grateful for the experience and the things that I learned.
What a load of garbage. You either intend to mislead someone or you do not.

You said that you lied, and now you are backpedaling. You didn't say anything like getting sick of coaxing people people into buying more car than they needed. You said that you got sick of lying.

frizz
09-30-2012, 09:35
http://thebreakthrough.org/blog/The%20point-you.jpg

Once again--my conscience is clear. I never, ever cheated anyone.

I am 100% sure that there are people out there who think I did.

I never lied about the condition of a car or the terms of a deal.

I *did* agree with a woman trading in a Tahoe on an Eclipse convertible when she said her three kids would fit in the backseat. It wasn't a lie, but it wasn't the truth either. I got tired of dancing on that fine line.
You are the one who said that you lied, not I. Lying is the hallmark for cheating.

EDIT: And may I add that you are arguing for this comapny to be cut some slack.

devildog2067
09-30-2012, 09:39
You said that you lied, and now you are backpedaling.

Backpedaling?

I'll say it again: I lied to people. I got tired of it.

I could have, maybe should have, told people that buying a car was a stupid idea. But I didn't. I could have told people that they couldn't afford the car they were buying. I didn't. People asked me questions, and I did not tell them the truth when I answered. I redirected. I temporized. That's lying. I fully own up to it.

That's not the same as cheating people. Feel free to believe what you want to believe, but my conscience is clear. The people who believe that I cheated them (I know they exist, I talked to some of them, and I sold some of them second and third cars) believe what they wanted to believe as well.

devildog2067
09-30-2012, 09:42
EDIT: And may I add that you are arguing for this comapny to be cut some slack.

I am not "arguing" for "this company" to be cut any slack.

I am pointing out that the actions of a single individual at this company may or may not reflect the culture of the company as a whole, and it may or may not be appropriate to hold the company responsible for the illegal actions of a single individual.

If a nurse at a hospital murders a patient, and the family sues the hospital, what do the GT hordes say? They say "lawyers and lawsuits are ruining this country." But when it's an employee at a car dealership, all of a sudden there are people saying the dealership should be on the hook for every penny of some arbitrary amount. It makes no sense.

frizz
09-30-2012, 10:06
I am not "arguing" for "this company" to be cut any slack.

I am pointing out that the actions of a single individual at this company may or may not reflect the culture of the company as a whole, and it may or may not be appropriate to hold the company responsible for the illegal actions of a single individual.

If a nurse at a hospital murders a patient, and the family sues the hospital, what do the GT hordes say? They say "lawyers and lawsuits are ruining this country." But when it's an employee at a car dealership, all of a sudden there are people saying the dealership should be on the hook for every penny of some arbitrary amount. It makes no sense.

On the lying thin, if all you did is only what you said you did, then you didn't lie. Not disabusing someone of an erroneous assumption isn't lying. Only a statement or act with the intent of planting incorrect information is a lie.

I can see where the conflict of making a living by ignoring your moral urge to stop someone from making a mistake would feel like a lie, but it isn't.


For your first paragraph, it may not seem fair, but I don't know of a better way to push companies to keep their employees in line. Then there's the fact that a business usually reaps profits when an employee cheats someone. In the case of a car accident, well, the business was making money at this.

For your second paragraph, sure, there is an inconsistency based on who is on the hook, but holding the company (hospital) responsible has the aim of making them be more careful in who they hire.

As an aside, I have noticed that in quite a few "angel of death" cases, a half-assed review of the kill nurse's history should have waived red flags.

On the amount of liability for the dealership, I have to argue that almost any damage amount has some arbitrariness in it since 100% precision is seldom possible.

Take pain and suffering from a wreck: it gets impossible to figure an exact dollar amount. But the person who has been hurt deserves something, doesn't he? The person who hurt him shouldn't be able to walk away because it is hard to figure an amount.

I do not disagree that damage awards can be so far off that they are in violation of due process, just as mega-punitive damages awards can. But it's gotta be something. Where that something is... reasonable minds can disagree.

Peace Warrior
09-30-2012, 10:23
Backpedaling?

I'll say it again: I lied to people. I got tired of it.

I could have, maybe should have, told people that buying a car was a stupid idea. But I didn't. I could have told people that they couldn't afford the car they were buying. I didn't. People asked me questions, and I did not tell them the truth when I answered. I redirected. I temporized. That's lying. I fully own up to it. ...
Hmmmm... In the interest of full disclosure, back in the day, no, make that WAY WAY back in the day, I sold home electronics and appliances for two major chains.

I could quote you practically verbatim. Such, as for me, "I could have, maybe should have, told people that buying a car this new TV was a stupid idea. But I didn't. I could have told people that they couldn't afford the car this new TV they were buying. I didn't. People asked me questions, and I did not tell them the truth when I answered. I redirected. I temporized. That's lying. I fully own up to it."

Like you, I cannot once remember lying about the terms and conditions of the deal as far as to how the financing and or in-house credit terms applied to their contract and what not.


Totally get it DD. :wavey:

Breadman03
09-30-2012, 10:38
They certainly should be financially responsible. The question is, did they do $2.2M in damages?

Let's say the arrest prevents him from getting a promotion or new job with better pay for a few years. He might be making 10's of thousands less per year for life.

He may have to pay higher interest until any blemishes n his credit are gone.

I don't know about $2.2 mil, but it could certainly be a substantial number.

JW1178
09-30-2012, 10:49
Dealerships do this crap on purpose so they can get you to buy the car and then get more money out of you. They are playing a game which in this case they went too far.

Car dealerships are places where a lot of money is moving around. A few people have to be hired that could be done by fewer people, but they have to hire more so they can "watch" each other. Basically, they get paid well to make sure everyone follows the rules. They don't work for their money, they don't "earn" money, they just make money. Because there are many people making lots of money, lots of money needs to be made, so often, it's hard to do this so they claim they struggle all the time. Kind of like banks.

DanaT
09-30-2012, 10:53
Let's say the arrest prevents him from getting a promotion or new job with better pay for a few years. He might be making 10's of thousands less per year for life.

He may have to pay higher interest until any blemishes n his credit are gone.

I don't know about $2.2 mil, but it could certainly be a substantial number.

Well, just assuming a future value with 5% year, 10k a year, 20 years, that is about $350k. Extrapolate that until retirement time, and the future value is close to $1.6M.

So if a false arrest resulted in $10k a year less income, it is easy to get to $1.6M in damages over a career.

Gallium
09-30-2012, 11:22
Well, just assuming a future value with 5% year, 10k a year, 20 years, that is about $350k. Extrapolate that until retirement time, and the future value is close to $1.6M.

So if a false arrest resulted in $10k a year less income, it is easy to get to $1.6M in damages over a career.


I am not in a Math mood today, so I will run with your numbers.

The difference in salary between NP vs RN, or CRNA vs RN is anywhere in a range of $20-$50k a year (after factoring the cost of the Masters degree over four years).

nursetim
09-30-2012, 11:25
Like I said, I ran a car dealership. One of my guys once got drunk and drove one of our cars through someone's house. I know about liability.



Imagine that this person didn't work for a dealership for a moment, but was a private citizen who had sold a car privately. He files a false police report and gets the buyer arrested. Who would you sue for a few million bucks in that case? No one.



I'm your huckleberry, yes I would, even over a pos ford. I would also renew as often as needed, every 10 yrs I believe, the hate would keep me warm in the winter. Anything the pos owns would be mine, anything the pos would ever own or make would be mine.


Gallium, RN to NP- $40,000 for RN, $60,000-80,000 starting out. NP to CRNA- as stated above for NP starting out, CRNA $120,000- up starting out. The main difference being that CRNA do procedures and add to the practice coffers. Seeing Pt.s not as much.

Gallium
09-30-2012, 15:29
Tim,

Locum Tenems says in my area CRNAs straight off graduation/the boards are getting $135-$149k/yr.

I have a lot of relatives (more than 20!) who are RNs or NPs, if you include LPNs & MDs there are close to 4 doz family members (my dad was from a family of 11 brothers and sisters, none of them had less than five kids, I am one of the youngest grandkids).

In this area none of the RNs make less than $70k, but they are working long hours, or have been RNs for a while, and have all the CC/admin/etc stuff that makes em more valuable.

If a dealership got me arrested on something like this, man I'd be so vengeful,:horsey: :supergrin:

VANWALL
09-30-2012, 16:41
Will someone who can follow this please post what finally is resolved (if it is ever made public).

I my opinion the person who made false statements to the police should be charged.

Beretta92guy
09-30-2012, 16:44
boy have i learned a lot reading this thread......

i think when it comes time to buy a new car, i will just junk my old one...............and ride the bus :(

GlocknSpiehl
09-30-2012, 17:22
Well, just assuming a future value with 5% year, 10k a year, 20 years, that is about $350k. Extrapolate that until retirement time, and the future value is close to $1.6M.

So if a false arrest resulted in $10k a year less income, it is easy to get to $1.6M in damages over a career.

Actually, the big issue, with any person in a medical career, is once you are arrested, you are screwed. I work as a Nuc Med Technologist and I must immediately report any arrest and I can immediately have my license suspended and/or lifted. Every medical facilty does background checks and, if they see you have been arrested, regardless if you were tried or convicted, they will pass you by for one of the many people out there with no baggage.

The dealership has really screwed with this guy's ability to get/keep his license and to get/keep a job. Has nothing to do with him making less money; it has everything to do with him not being able to work in his field, ever.

Frankly, he should not only get a big,fat check, but the dealership should have to pay to have his record totally expunged and pay for any future legal bills he has to deal with in regards to his illegal arrest. It could be years before all this is cleared up.

lunarspeak
09-30-2012, 17:25
im fully done about the car and am wondering about devildogs obsessive need to be right...i was going to google ocd but i remembered 4 pages back DD told uss he knew more then google ..lol:tongueout:

berto62
09-30-2012, 18:51
If this was a BS arrest cannot a judge make it all go away?

norton
09-30-2012, 19:00
[QUOTE=GlocknSpiehl;19472076]Actually, the big issue, with any person in a medical career, is once you are arrested, you are screwed. I work as a Nuc Med Technologist and I must immediately report any arrest and I can immediately have my license suspended and/or lifted. Every medical facilty does background checks and, if they see you have been arrested, regardless if you were tried or convicted, they will pass you by for one of the many people out there with no baggage.

The dealership has really screwed with this guy's ability to get/keep his license and to get/keep a job. Has nothing to do with him making less money; it has everything to do with him not being able to work in his field, ever.



Gee, maybe he should have thought of this before he tried to screw over the car dealer.

Gallium
09-30-2012, 19:13
[QUOTE=GlocknSpiehl;19472076]...


Gee, maybe he should have thought of this before he tried to screw over the car dealer.


Sorry norton, your logic is flawed. I don't expect the be the target of a SWAT team if I drive 5 mph over (all else constant), and I don't expect to be arrested and processed for a completely civil matter.

Last, if you've ever had to get in bed with a car dealer, it is easy to understand that very little of what falls from their mouths constitutes the truth. If a dealer called me a day or 4 after a deal was closed, I too would be skeptical.

badge315
09-30-2012, 19:37
Gee, maybe he should have thought of this before he tried to screw over the car dealer.

Did you read the same story as the rest of us? Because I think you have that backwards.:dunno:

Javelin
09-30-2012, 19:50
Easy to give away other peoples' money, eh?

Whose pocket is the 2.2 million going to come out of? It's not going to be the pocket of the employee who made the mistake, I'll tell you that much.

I see what you are saying... but I am not hearing any logic. They made a false claim getting an innocent man arrested and did it with malicious intent. Now they got called on it and he now has grounds to seek justified legal recourse for the Dealerships use of using non-justified legal recourse.

See the difference? He will win, the dealership will lose and pay big. You screw around with a man and his time he will have time to screw around with you and your wallet.

And the world goes round and round. :wavey:

Halojumper
09-30-2012, 21:52
It's slightly off topic, but think of it as a sidebar, a while back my mom was buying a car and a dealer was giving her a real bad time. He finally got her to take a test drive so she took their car and went to another dealer and bought a car from them. She asked the salesman if he would return the test drive car and get hers back. Of course, he happily agreed.

Now back to our regularly scheduled program.

NeverMore1701
09-30-2012, 21:55
It's slightly off topic, but think of it as a sidebar, a while back my mom was buying a car and a dealer was giving her a real bad time. He finally got her to take a test drive so she took their car and went to another dealer and bought a car from them. She asked the salesman if he would return the test drive car and get hers back. Of course, he happily agreed.

Now back to our regularly scheduled program.

Heh heh, I like it! :supergrin:

devildog2067
09-30-2012, 21:57
I see what you are saying... but I am not hearing any logic. They made a false claim

Define "they."

Whether an employer is liable for the criminal actions of his or her employee depend very much on the details of the act. I don't know enough about this particular act to know whether or not the dealership should be made to pay.

More to the point, unless someone in this thread is privy to details that the rest of us are not, neither is anyone else.

When my guy got drunk and drove a car through a house, the dealership's insurance paid the liability claim. That was a clear case--he was driving a dealership-owned car, so anything he hit while he was driving the car, the dealership was liable for.

If he'd driven his dealership-owned car to someone's house and assaulted that person, the dealership would NOT have been responsible, in any way. If the person who was assaulted chose to sue the dealership, and the story made the news, the GT crowd would be up in arms about how sue-happy the country is.

All I'm asking is that people stop and think for a second before calling for blood. Is that really too much to ask?

devildog2067
09-30-2012, 22:10
im fully done about the car and am wondering about devildogs obsessive need to be right...

I don't have anything like OCD, if that's what you mean.

Trying not to sound too much like a sanctimonious *******, here's why: people who choose to be ignorant, rather than taking a few seconds to think or a few minutes to educate themselves, make me deeply sad and angry.

I'm a smart guy, but I'm no Einstein. I'm not a genius by any means. And I'm certainly not an expert on everything. Therefore, I try quite hard to keep my mouth shut on topics I don't know about (although I definitely fail, sometimes). I don't step into cop threads and talk about what it's like to be a cop, because I've never been a cop. I don't volunteer medical diagnoses, because I've never been a doctor.

If there is something that interests me, and I want to have an opinion about it, I take a few minutes and read about it first. In the internet age this is easier than it's ever been. You have (almost literally) all of human knowledge at your fingertips, yet you choose to remain willfully ignorant. (I don't mean "you" specifically, I'm speaking to a generic "you." A recent thread on HIV and circumcision illustrates my point pretty clearly, I think (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1428527).)

I know about car dealerships. I'm trying to point out that the dealership, in this case, may or may not really be liable. We don't have nearly enough facts to make that determination.

In light of that, I am trying to get people to take a step back and think for a second before spouting off with "they should have to pay for that guy's job forever and college for all of his kids and buy him a house and a dog!" The world would be a better place if people genuinely tried not to form conclusions without having the facts, and didn't get defensive when people point out what they're doing. People get emotionally attached to their own ignorance, for some unknown and unknowable reason.

I, in my tiny way, am trying to combat that ignorance. Why I do it here, I have no idea. I certainly don't change many peoples' minds. Most of GT surely thinks I'm an arrogant prick (I don't come off that way in real life, oddly enough). But that's what it is. I'm not obsessive about being right. It just bugs the hell out of me when others insist on being wrong, in the face of the facts.

Javelin
09-30-2012, 22:35
Define "they."

Whether an employer is liable for the criminal actions of his or her employee depend very much on the details of the act. I don't know enough about this particular act to know whether or not the dealership should be made to pay.

More to the point, unless someone in this thread is privy to details that the rest of us are not, neither is anyone else.

When my guy got drunk and drove a car through a house, the dealership's insurance paid the liability claim. That was a clear case--he was driving a dealership-owned car, so anything he hit while he was driving the car, the dealership was liable for.

If he'd driven his dealership-owned car to someone's house and assaulted that person, the dealership would NOT have been responsible, in any way. If the person who was assaulted chose to sue the dealership, and the story made the news, the GT crowd would be up in arms about how sue-happy the country is.

All I'm asking is that people stop and think for a second before calling for blood. Is that really too much to ask?

I think that his lawyer has a case against both to be honest. But the money is with the dealership so that's probably where the interests in litigation will be emphasized.

As far as sue-crazy... well that's just the world we live in and there is nothing the GT community or anyone else is going to have much say in.

lunarspeak
09-30-2012, 22:40
ok..you say your not obsessed with this by replying to my comment with a 22 line response.

you could have easily called me ignorant,a jerk go to heck but you wrote a "novel" witch included a quote a link refferances to einstein,circumcision,and used the word sanctimonious..:rofl:

im really not trying to give you a hard time DD ..but its just so funny how emoitionaly involved you have become with this...:wavey:

devildog2067
09-30-2012, 22:49
I think that his lawyer has a case against both to be honest.

Again--you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I think it's unlikely that either of us know enough of the facts to really judge.

But the money is with the dealership so that's probably where the interests in litigation will be emphasized.

And the truth comes out. Doesn't matter who's wrong, just matters who has money.

Doesn't that make you angry? Aren't you offended?

As far as sue-crazy... well that's just the world we live in and there is nothing the GT community or anyone else is going to have much say in.
I beg to differ, my friend. We all change the world, one little bit at a time.

devildog2067
09-30-2012, 22:49
you could have easily called me ignorant,a jerk go to heck

Why would I?

Trapped_in_Kali
09-30-2012, 22:53
Well IMHO the employee who reported this to the LEOs must have had the authority to make a police report regarding theft of company property. Would the police have taken the report from just any salesman with out data from the manager?
The "theft" report was of company owned property made (I'm assuming) by someone given the authority to file police reports in the companies name for the company.
Then the company is responsible. If not the city should be sued.
You may think it is no big deal the have an arrest for felony GTA on your record but some people do.

Define "they."

Whether an employer is liable for the criminal actions of his or her employee depend very much on the details of the act. I don't know enough about this particular act to know whether or not the dealership should be made to pay.

devildog2067
09-30-2012, 23:15
Well IMHO the employee who reported this to the LEOs must have had the authority to make a police report regarding theft of company property.

What makes you think that?

Would the police have taken the report from just any salesman with out data from the manager?

I don't know. It depends on the cop that answered the phone and how convincing whomever called in the theft report was, I suppose.


The "theft" report was of company owned property made (I'm assuming) by someone given the authority to file police reports in the companies name for the company.

You know what they say about assuming.

All I'm doing is choosing not to assume. Why should I? Why not just wait to form an opinion until I have more facts? None of us trust the media in general, so why trust them in this case?

If the management team at the dealership sat down and had a meeting and decided this was the best way to deal with the situation, then sure, the dealership should definitely be liable.

But what if (and I'm making this up) a salesman realized he'd made a mistake after the customer re-signed, and came up with this harebrained scheme on his own? What if he pretended to be a sales manager when he called the cops, trying to cover his own ass and fix his mistake? What if he did that from his personal cell phone, even? What if he lied to management about it and they not only weren't aware of this, but would have stopped it if they had known? How does it make sense for the dealership to be liable then?

We don't know what happened. We only know a few of the details. All I'm saying is, why jump to conclusions?

You may think it is no big deal the have an arrest for felony GTA on your record but some people do.
Where did I say it was "no big deal"? I neither said nor implied that anywhere in this thread.

DanaT
10-01-2012, 02:55
How much would the men on here think is acceptable amount of compensation for being sexually assaulted my another man? $10? $100? $10000? $1M?

What sexual assault you say? Well if I were to force a female to disrobe on front of me against here will, that is sexual assault. If I forced a female to allow me to touch her genitals against her will, that is sexual assault. If I whip out my hose to take a leak, that is a sex crime.

So how much is it worth to you men to be forced to take off you clothes and have your genitals touched by another man against your will?


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

Gallium
10-01-2012, 04:39
...



And the truth comes out. Doesn't matter who's wrong, just matters who has money.
...


And much of that money is made in a way that FORCED you to leave that line of work, because you couldn't stand the lying (your words).

The facts that we know are already outlined in this thread,

- dude buys car
- someone from dealer reports the car stolen
- dude gets arrested on false charge

I tell you, if you were in that dude's shoes, and your livelihood was at stake, not only would the note of the song you sing would be different, but you'd be singing a completely different song.

I would be completely INCENSED if some asshat at a dealership caused my arrest, booking, fingerprinting etc over something like this. Really, I would have started out at a figure 4-5x higher.

In the final analysis, we have a system for dealing with issues like this. The dealership, or someone in their employ went outside the clearly defined lines of what is permissible to sustain/maintain a profit. They were the ones (if it was one dude, a collusion or the entire dealership it does not matter) who opened a can of whoop ass.

The dude, having suffered damages, is now using the framework of the system EXACTLY as is allowed by law to exact justice. I cannot comprehend how you fail to connect those dots.

If he had, on release from jail torched the car and then torched a few more cars at the dealership and the paint balled a few other cars...and then try to sue, I would be singing a different song.

My conclusion is, you are allowing your your "dealership" bias to over-ride that portion of your brain that deals with logic. (and I don't of course mean to be insulting in any way - we all have our biases.)

frizz
10-01-2012, 05:32
Gee, maybe he should have thought of this before he tried to screw over the car dealer.

You don't even know if he tried to screw them over. You are GUESSING and you don't have a good reason to make that guess.

Really. Explain what he did "to screw over the car dealer."

badge315
10-01-2012, 06:00
Define "they."

Whether an employer is liable for the criminal actions of his or her employee depend very much on the details of the act. I don't know enough about this particular act to know whether or not the dealership should be made to pay.

More to the point, unless someone in this thread is privy to details that the rest of us are not, neither is anyone else.

When my guy got drunk and drove a car through a house, the dealership's insurance paid the liability claim. That was a clear case--he was driving a dealership-owned car, so anything he hit while he was driving the car, the dealership was liable for.

If he'd driven his dealership-owned car to someone's house and assaulted that person, the dealership would NOT have been responsible, in any way. If the person who was assaulted chose to sue the dealership, and the story made the news, the GT crowd would be up in arms about how sue-happy the country is.

All I'm asking is that people stop and think for a second before calling for blood. Is that really too much to ask?

The dealership is liable because:

A) The employee was acting as an agent of the dealership
B) The employee's criminal act was committed while performing his duties as an employee of the dealership
C) The dealership would have been a direct beneficiary of the employee's criminal act

All I'm doing is choosing not to assume. Why should I? Why not just wait to form an opinion until I have more facts? None of us trust the media in general, so why trust them in this case?

If you really believe that, then you should refrain from forming an opinion about or commenting on any news story ever again, because they never include all the facts. :upeyes:

frizz
10-01-2012, 06:02
Define "they."

Whether an employer is liable for the criminal actions of his or her employee depend very much on the details of the act. I don't know enough about this particular act to know whether or not the dealership should be made to pay.

More to the point, unless someone in this thread is privy to details that the rest of us are not, neither is anyone else.


The police said that a manager of the company told them that the customer stole the car, and the cop the manager was talking to informed the manager that the police would try to arrest the customer.

The employees were conducting the business of the employer and one or more of the employees were in management positions. In conducting the business, specifically trying to recover money, they committed a civil wrong against the customer. These are not contested facts.

The law is not murky in this situation. The employer is responsible for what its employees did.

Why else would the company president be kissing butt and playing make-nice?

norton
10-01-2012, 07:20
You don't even know if he tried to screw them over. You are GUESSING and you don't have a good reason to make that guess.

Really. Explain what he did "to screw over the car dealer."

None of us "know". We weren't there. And written stories are almost always full of mistakes and bias.

I like to take the road less traveled. I am not always in favor of the "little guy". Plus I know several people who would only be too glad to do the same thing to a dealership. They are the same people who think everyone is trying to screw them over.
Have a nice day:wavey:

ray9898
10-01-2012, 10:00
The car dealer is without question liable. The manager who reported the car stolen was acting as an agent of his employer and was empowered by them to file legal action on behalf of the dealership. For example, the dealership he is employeed by is the victim of the theft and not the manager personally as a private citizen. That is the difference and why his employer is involved.

frizz
10-01-2012, 13:19
None of us "know". We weren't there. And written stories are almost always full of mistakes and bias.

I like to take the road less traveled. I am not always in favor of the "little guy". Plus I know several people who would only be too glad to do the same thing to a dealership. They are the same people who think everyone is trying to screw them over.
Have a nice day:wavey:

If you don't know, then why are you so adamant that the purchaser did something wrong? There is no evidence that he did, but there is clear evidence that the dealership did something wrong.

Hawkeye16
10-01-2012, 13:30
Suing for $2.2 million for 4 hours in jail? What a shmuck. At most he should get legal fees paid for and the car for free, at most.


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

redbaron007
10-01-2012, 13:33
Suing for $2.2 million for 4 hours in jail? What a shmuck. At most he should get legal fees paid for and the car for free, at most.


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

Shirley...you jest! :dunno: :faint:


:wavey:

red

Tongo
10-01-2012, 14:30
Suing for $2.2 million for 4 hours in jail? What a shmuck. At most he should get legal fees paid for and the car for free, at most.


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

You did read where they guy who bought the car was a Nurse and could potentially (likely) have employment issues due to the arrest?

Gallium
10-01-2012, 14:50
Suing for $2.2 million for 4 hours in jail? What a shmuck. At most he should get legal fees paid for and the car for free, at most.


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

What's the name of the dealership where you work?

frizz
10-01-2012, 16:03
Suing for $2.2 million for 4 hours in jail? What a shmuck. At most he should get legal fees paid for and the car for free, at most.


You might see it differently if someone made a false report to the police that resulted in your arrest. As several posters have pointed out... an arrest, even with dropped charges and nothing more, will follow him for the rest of his career and create professional licensing problems for him.

And what about the disgusting act of lying to the police to get you thrown in the slammer? This wasn't an inadvertent accident; it was deliberate and malicious, so it deserves punishment.

rockymtnhorror
10-01-2012, 21:47
Look at the bright side: at least the cops didn't shoot the guy's dog!

Dragoon44
10-01-2012, 22:16
Look at the bright side: at least the cops didn't shoot the guy's dog!

But they did Taser the Dog when it wouldn't show ID.

:supergrin:

NeverMore1701
10-01-2012, 22:21
Suing for $2.2 million for 4 hours in jail? What a shmuck. At most he should get legal fees paid for and the car for free, at most.


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

Someone doesn't understand the consequences of an arrest on a healthcare professional's career.

larry_minn
10-01-2012, 22:39
Suing for $2.2 million for 4 hours in jail? What a shmuck. At most he should get legal fees paid for and the car for free, at most.


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

So how many times have you been arrested? How many strip searches? How many times hauled infront of judge??
There are MANY jobs, times where just haveing BEEN arrested can cause trouble. It does NOT matter why/finding in case. Just that you were arrested.
If I was offered "just let us lie to Police so they arrest you, haul you in, search you, put in your record that you were arrested for car theft... and we will give you $40k " I would tell you to keep your money. (forcefully)

I recall I had a landlord who got arrested for trespass BUT included was RESISTING arrest. He said he NEVER got a warning once Officer found that out. (he was riding ATV when he was 20 and tried to get home when he saw Police come out)

nursetim
10-01-2012, 23:06
See? Every penny, I rest his case. :thumbsup:

Peace Warrior
10-01-2012, 23:06
Will someone who can follow this please post what finally is resolved (if it is ever made public).

I my opinion the person who made false statements to the police should be charged.
Good point. Around here (Fla.) filing a false Police report is a felony. Now I'm wondering how this works out as far as the, probably soon to be ex, employees at the dealership.

Peace Warrior
10-02-2012, 01:44
... I, in my tiny way, am trying to combat that ignorance. Why I do it here, I have no idea. I certainly don't change many peoples' minds. Most of GT surely thinks I'm an arrogant prick (I don't come off that way in real life, oddly enough). But that's what it is. I'm not obsessive about being right. It just bugs the hell out of me when others insist on being wrong, in the face of the facts.
Teachers try to transfer the "love for learning" to others around them.

In verse it is easy to find a stopping point, but in prose, with online communication being limited to both sides' effectual transfer of respective viewpoints, sometimes it is not so easy to come to the point of, "okay, you don't care about ever getting it."

The way I see it is like this, your love of learning keeps you turning over every stone for the benefit of the recipient. All teachers do it and those whom are not teachers sometimes do not understand the dogged persistence or tenacity to make something plainly understood.

"rock on garth"

Hawkeye16
10-05-2012, 11:03
You can arrest me and throw me in a holding cell for 4 hours any day of the week even for just a measly $1 million.

Suing for $2 million is still a shmuck move IMO.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

nursetim
10-05-2012, 12:39
Okay, but you can never do what you love to do and make a good living doing it. For a mil? Pass. I love what I do too much. I'm sorry for you if you do not have that passion in your life.

Gallium
10-05-2012, 16:35
You can arrest me and throw me in a holding cell for 4 hours any day of the week even for just a measly $1 million.

Suing for $2 million is still a shmuck move IMO.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


People who don't understand the value of freedom, or who lack a comprehension of earning potential are usually the ones to shart at the mouth about "a measly mil or 2 mil".

What do you do for a living, and what is the level of your education?

nursetim
10-05-2012, 19:38
Now Gallium, lets not get elitist. You know the old joke, plumber fixes a neurosurgeon's sink and presents the doc with a $500 bill. The surgeon is outraged at the cost. He tells the plumber, " I'm a brain surgeon and I only get half of what you charge." The plumber replies, "yeah, I know, that's what I used to get when I was a brain surgeon also."

I will agree that it is our, yours and mine, that he does not value his freedom or reputation as much as we do. He may have a job that clean criminal history is not as important as it is in ours.

tsmo1066
10-05-2012, 20:02
You can arrest me and throw me in a holding cell for 4 hours any day of the week even for just a measly $1 million.

Suing for $2 million is still a shmuck move IMO.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

It's not the 4 hours in jail that matter. It's the fact that as a member of the medical profession, the car buyer's arrest effectively ends his chances of employment in 99% of the jobs for which he is trained and qualified.

larry_minn
10-05-2012, 22:09
You can arrest me and throw me in a holding cell for 4 hours any day of the week even for just a measly $1 million.

Suing for $2 million is still a shmuck move IMO.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

First he will never get $2.2 million. I doubt he will get "realisticly" Half a million take home. MAX.
At my age, with career I have/assets I control...
I still wouldn't care to be arrested/charged/have a record. And realisticly it wouldn't really hinder me too much. Doubt I will ever need to be in position where having a arrest/no conviction would hinder me.
If I was still in EMS, some of the other jobs I have done. Frankly I never would have gotten a interview.

Peace Warrior
10-11-2012, 05:01
First he will never get $2.2 million. I doubt he will get "realisticly" Half a million take home. MAX.
At my age, with career I have/assets I control...
I still wouldn't care to be arrested/charged/have a record. And realisticly it wouldn't really hinder me too much. Doubt I will ever need to be in position where having a arrest/no conviction would hinder me.
If I was still in EMS, some of the other jobs I have done. Frankly I never would have gotten a interview.
In Florida, it is now cheaper to kill slaves; namely, instead of worker's comp paying for people with injuries, if they get killed, the maximum allowed "benefit" is $150,000.00.

This number is being "worked on" so as to be even lower, but for all intents and purposes, 150K is the most you're liable for as far as death benefits. (Hey, this number makes the actuary tables more clear huh?!?:whistling: )

bayshtyshorty
04-24-2013, 09:25
They certainly should be financially responsible. The question is, did they do $2.2M in damages?

the only way to answer that question is time, what if they settle low, then he loses his job and cant find another one because of his record...the risk is all on the buyer...2.2M bend them over!

KevinFACE
04-24-2013, 10:32
They certainly should be financially responsible. The question is, did they do $2.2M in damages?

Being unlawfully arrested is cause for a lot in damages and the person who called in the false police report regarding it being stolen should be arrested.

Adjuster
04-24-2013, 10:41
Holly rejuvenated threads Batman!


/

OctoberRust
04-24-2013, 10:50
Easy to give away other peoples' money, eh?

Whose pocket is the 2.2 million going to come out of? It's not going to be the pocket of the employee who made the mistake, I'll tell you that much.


The owner is ultimately responsible for every asset/liability he brings into his company.

Business is business, you should know that....

OctoberRust
04-24-2013, 10:51
They certainly should be financially responsible. The question is, did they do $2.2M in damages?


It looks like the court thinks they did, didn't they?

wprebeck
04-24-2013, 10:56
Threads like this really show who has experience with the criminal justice system, and who does not.


I routinely see doctors and lawyers make their way through my jail. Not like a once per week thing, but enough so you notice. Especially when one of them is my childrens' pediatrician. Or another is a practicing attorney with lots of annoying TV ads.

Both of the people in question still practice their licensed professions to this day. But hey, go ahead and believe that an arrest will end their career, if it makes you feel outraged and morally superior. You're wrong, of course - but being incorrect and not having any clue about the topic at hand, yet speaking with certainty is becoming more and more of a trademark here.

ChiefWPD
04-24-2013, 10:56
Well, what was the outcome of the case? :dunno:

wprebeck
04-24-2013, 10:57
Add to the lineup of professionals I've seen arrested - a pilot for UPS, who does an overseas route. Personal friend, by the way.

Steve0853
04-24-2013, 11:15
It was a bad deal even if the guy bought the car for $34,000 and the dealership never called and tried to scam him.

It's a freaking Chevy Traverse for $34,000. Drive it off the lot and its a $22,000 Chevy Traverse.

Glotin
04-24-2013, 12:21
Threads like this really show who has experience with the criminal justice system, and who does not.


I routinely see doctors and lawyers make their way through my jail. Not like a once per week thing, but enough so you notice. Especially when one of them is my childrens' pediatrician. Or another is a practicing attorney with lots of annoying TV ads.

Both of the people in question still practice their licensed professions to this day. But hey, go ahead and believe that an arrest will end their career, if it makes you feel outraged and morally superior. You're wrong, of course - but being incorrect and not having any clue about the topic at hand, yet speaking with certainty is becoming more and more of a trademark here.

What is your point?

There's nothing wrong with filing a false police report and having someone arrested? You wouldn't care if you were wrongfully arrested? It's not that big a deal?

Deanster
04-24-2013, 12:26
I agree the dealeer should pay but I'm not quite sure it should be 2.2 million. :rofl:

While I'm not a big fan of suing casually, they swore out a (false) statement that he'd stolen the car, had him arrested out of his front yard, and taken away in cuffs, despite a signed and paid-in-full sales contract.

$2.2 million may not be the correct amount, but IMHO the individuals involved with the false report should be facing criminal charges (as with any intentional false report - I think the system promotes abuse when there aren't consequences for manipulating law enforcement), the dealership should have every enforcement entity it works with crawl through their business practices with a fine-tooth comb, and the dealership/their insurer should be on the hook for a solid six-figure settlement.

vart
04-24-2013, 12:45
It was a bad deal even if the guy bought the car for $34,000 and the dealership never called and tried to scam him.

It's a freaking Chevy Traverse for $34,000. Drive it off the lot and its a $22,000 Chevy Traverse.

Close... It's now worth about $22,700 clean trade-in on NADA.

Paid $34K in September and now worth $11,300 less, less than a year later...

vart
04-24-2013, 12:48
Well, what was the outcome of the case? :dunno:

No further news since last November; likely settled out of court...:dunno:

Deanster
04-24-2013, 16:48
with just a bit of Google-fu, I queried the Chesapeake circuit's case monitor, and found the case is just working its way through the system:

http://wasdmz2.courts.state.va.us/CJISWeb/circuit.html - Choose 'Chesapeake' from the pull-down and click 'Begin'. Click 'Civil', and enter the case number CL12002177-00 , then click 'Case number query'.


Chesapeake Circuit - Civil Division
Case Details

Case Number:
CL12002177-00
Filed:
09/14/12
Filing Type:
Complaint - Catch-All
Number of Plaintiffs:
0001
Number of Defendants:
0007
Commenced By:
Initial Filing
Bond:

Complex Case:


Plaintiffs

Plaintiff: SAWYER, DANNY R
Trading as:
Attorney: COLAW, REBECCA S

Defendants

Defendant1: KLINE CHEVROLET INC
Trading as: PRIORITY CHEVROLET
Attorney: WEISS, BRAD D

Defendant2: DAVENPORT, WIB
Trading as:
Attorney: GALLAGHER, R CRAIG

Defendant3: LLOYD, MELINDA
Trading as:
Attorney:
Hearings

# Date Time Type Room Duration Jury Result
1 02/06/13 9:00AM Demurrer 3 15 minutes Withdrawn
2 02/06/13 9:00AM Plea In Bar 3 15 minutes Continued Generally
3 02/06/13 9:00AM Quash 3 15 minutes Continued Generally
4 04/23/13 10:00AM Motion - Other-Pretrial 3
5 06/17/13 10:00AM Motion - Other-Pretrial 3 1 Day(s)
Date Ordered To Mediation:
Final Disposition

Judgment:
Final Order Date:
Appealed Date:
Concluded By: