Recoil difference with G22C? Arthritis-related question. [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Rex G
09-30-2012, 12:43
OK, first of all, I am aware of the disadvantages of ported pistols in real-life defensive situations, such as when shooting from a retention position. I also know the difference in felt recoil is relatively minor. That being said, I am considering a G22C as an orthopedic pistol, as my formerly stronger right wrist now hurts when shooting my SIG P229 duty pistol. I carried G22 duty pistols from 2002 to 2004, then switched to the DAK P229 for its better practical accuracy. Well, the higher bore axis of the P229, plus the snappy .40 recoil, is becoming a real problem now. I should trade a small bit of accuracy, for less damage to the old body. (The .40 S&W is my mandated duty pistol cartridge.)

Going to the lower bore axis of a Glock should mitigate the recoil-
induced pain and damage, aided by the cushioning effect of the polymer
frame. I am wondering if the ports might help things just a bit more? I
am aware that ports re-direct recoil, so the pistols recoils more straight
back, rather than torquing upward, but it seems to be the torquing
action that hurts.

I would consider buying a standard G22 barrel for actual street use.

I would especially like to hear from anyone who has adopted a "C" Glock for orthopedic reasons. Thanks for any insight/advice!

plouffedaddy
09-30-2012, 12:53
It will help; perceived recoil will be lessened a good bit. Honestly though; if you're having medical issues and that's driving this purchase I wouldn't risk aggrivating it and I'd opt for the 17C instead. The terminal performance differences in the 9 & 40 with quality defensive ammo is relatively minor. Just a thought :dunno:

Good luck and let us know how it works out.

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l178/tiffani33/Guns/IMG_0872.jpg

Rex G
09-30-2012, 13:55
Thanks! I bought a G17, already, hoping my chief would allow the 9mm as an alternative duty pistol cartridge, but that proposal was set aside indefinitely. I must still tote a .40 in my duty rig.

English
09-30-2012, 15:41
I am sure you are thinking along the right lines, but the problem is that the Glock is also lighter. You would be better off with a Steyr M1-40A but there is not a compensated version and special barrels from an Austrian company, whose name I forget, are very expensive. Next best would be a G22 with a 6 inch barrel with compenstation ports or slots at the end beyond the frame. This would give it a little extra weight and better leverage for the compensation. Lone Wolf do such barrels and would probably cut compensation ports for you., but so would various others.

Incidentally, I am sure that the softer shooting characteristics of Glocks is nothing to do with flex in the frame and everything to do with the lower bore axis and more angled grip. The Steyr grip is better than the Glock's, but the compensation is not available. If you can find one to shoot anywhere, it would be worth the trial.

English

F106 Fan
09-30-2012, 16:22
Sig P226? It's a bit longer and somewhat heavier.

Richard

Pardoner
09-30-2012, 16:36
I can't speak for the 22C, but I have played with a 23C and the porting did a really good job of taming the recoil.

Arc Angel
09-30-2012, 17:33
OK, first of all, I am aware of the disadvantages of ported pistols in real-life defensive situations, such as when shooting from a retention position. I also know the difference in felt recoil is relatively minor.

That being said, I am considering a G22C as an orthopedic pistol, as my formerly stronger right wrist now hurts when shooting my SIG P229 duty pistol. I carried G22 duty pistols from 2002 to 2004, then switched to the DAK P229 for its better practical accuracy. Well, the higher bore axis of the P229, plus the snappy .40 recoil, is becoming a real problem now. I should trade a small bit of accuracy, for less damage to the old body. (The .40 S&W is my mandated duty pistol cartridge.)

Going to the lower bore axis of a Glock should mitigate the recoil-induced pain and damage, aided by the cushioning effect of the polymer frame. I am wondering if the ports might help things just a bit more? I am aware that ports re-direct recoil, so the pistols recoils more straight back, rather than torquing upward, but it seems to be the torquing action that hurts.

I would consider buying a standard G22 barrel for actual street use. I would especially like to hear from anyone who has adopted a "C" Glock for orthopedic reasons. Thanks for any insight/advice!

You have my sympathies! I've got arthritis in my hands, too; and, much as I hate to say it, there are days when I know it adversely affects my pistol shooting. I, also, have almost 40 years of experience shooting ported pistols; and, just so you know, I almost universally disagree with a lot of the ported/compensated pistol advice I read on the Internet. (Where everybody seems to be an expert on subjects they've had very little experience with, and actually know next-to-nothing about!)

I very much doubt that a ported pistol is going to be of any good use to you; however, certain compensated pistols might be. (You will, of course, need to use an open-bottomed holster in order to make this work - OK.) ;)

You're going to need: (1) an extended - and, probably, threaded AND indexed - pistol barrel; (2) a weighted - and ideally - 3 slot compensator that closely approximates the outside dimensions of your pistol's slide.

I found THIS (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Glock-22-Compensator-40-/320935442810) on the Internet; you might want to take a look at it. Good luck! I hope you find a useful solution. By the way: There's one other thing you could do, right now, to make pistol shooting easier for you. HOGUE HANDALL (http://www.getgrip.com/main/overview/handall.html) (I'm going to buy another one, for myself, later in the week.)


PS: Have you given any thought to changing your diet? The popular crap that Americans seem to love to ingest, everyday, might also be screwing up your wrist.

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1445422

My wife has read Dr. Davis' book; and we started eating this way months ago. It seems to help!

ADDED: I don't know what I was thinking; BUT, because a compensator takes a lot of energy out of a semi-auto's recoil, I forgot to mention that you might also need to pickup a reduced weight, 'Recoil Calibration Pak' (Part #13141) from Wolff Gunsprings!

http://www.gunsprings.com/index.cfm?page=items&cID=1&mID=5#117

Before buying anything this is a matter I'd discuss with, both, the compensator's manufacturer as well as someone like Dave Koebensky at Wolff Gunsprings. Significantly lightening the recoil spring in a Glock might, also, destabilize the close, 'balancing act' among the: recoil, trigger, and FP springs.

The problem is to use nothing less than standard weight trigger and FP springs along with the compensator, AND still get the whole setup to work 100%. You might, also, want to run this by your Department Armorer.

(The other problem with simply using a heavier recoil spring is that you can't always trust the pistol to feed. This is another thing that would need to be tested with, I'd say, at least 300 rounds before carrying the pistol in the field. Paradoxically, adding an attached tac light to a setup like this might actually improve overall performance by allowing the frame to straighten out and the slide to speed up.)

jbglock
09-30-2012, 17:42
My duty weapon is a 17C. Off duty is a 23C. It will help but how much is hard to say for you. My suggestions considering you are mandated .40 are...
1. gen3 22C.
2. Streamlight mounted to the rail and the appropriate retention holster. I'm not a fan of gun mounted lights but they add weight in an area you really need it.
3. 180 grain ammunition.
4. If allowed weighted baseplates as a last resort if the first three don't do the trick.

Honestly I'd be shocked if they didn't.

JBP55
09-30-2012, 17:45
Arthritic hands here as well and shoot more 9mm than anything else. Are you allowed to carry a Gen 4 G35? The felt recoil is better than a ported Gen 3 G22.

Rex G
09-30-2012, 20:05
Arthritic hands here as well and shoot more 9mm than anything else. Are you allowed to carry a Gen 4 G35? The felt recoil is better than a ported Gen 3 G22.

Thanks for that useful bit of information about the G35 recoil! Actually, I might be able to "game" things a bit by qualifying with a G22 upper unit, which is when they actually see the pistol, and then discretely carrying with a G35 upper unit in place. One K9 officer of my acquaintance did just that. I reckon that is one of those "ask for forgiveness, rather than beg for permission" scenarios. One of the benefits of night shift is that few of the brass are around to notice small details.

Rex G
09-30-2012, 20:11
My duty weapon is a 17C. Off duty is a 23C. It will help but how much is hard to say for you. My suggestions considering you are mandated .40 are...
1. gen3 22C.
2. Streamlight mounted to the rail and the appropriate retention holster. I'm not a fan of gun mounted lights but they add weight in an area you really need it.
3. 180 grain ammunition.
4. If allowed weighted baseplates as a last resort if the first three don't do the trick.

Honestly I'd be shocked if they didn't.

Thanks! Yes, a weapon-mounted light, is one option I do have. I already use 180-grain ammo, originally because its point of impact better matches my SIG's point of aim, but its less-snappy recoil is a bonus. There is no prohibition on weighted base plates, so once I settle on the pistol I will be using for a while, I will probably buy some.

jbglock
09-30-2012, 20:15
I don't know. The gun is actually the part below the slide with the serial number. I've made changes to my off duty piece since qualifying it and their is no issue as we have no official policy. Unofficial is we can do anything to any weapon as long as it is owned by us. Changes to city owned weapons require prior armorer approval. Maybe your department has no policy also. It's not like you will be changing the caliber or load from what you qualified with or is approved right? :)

Rex G
09-30-2012, 20:22
Arc Angel, thanks for the information on compensators. That might be an option, if I can find one compatible with our duty holsters. I am afraid my hands are too small to accommodate a Glock with a Handall on it.

English, thanks for mentioning a longer barrel with porting. That is an option.

F106 Fan, a P226 is certainly possible, especially if I can find a heavier P226ST in .40, but that is certainly a very costly option. Thanks, however, for mentioning it.

Thanks to all who have responded!

Arc Angel
09-30-2012, 20:55
Arc Angel, thanks for the information on compensators. That might be an option, if I can find one compatible with our duty holsters. I am afraid my hands are too small to accommodate a Glock with a Handall on it. ......

You're welcome! This is what I use; it's a muzzle-ported, and NOT a slide-ported, or compensated barrel - OK. It's just my opinion, of course, but I think Glock's barrel and slide porting system (Which, for some reason, the factory calls, 'compensated') absolutely stinks. All the (legitimate) complaints you hear about ported pistols apply, most appropriately, to slide AND barrel ported pistols.

http://imageshack.us/a/img404/5984/copyofglockmodel2120.jpg

I've got 3 of them. The reduction in, 'perceived recoil' (or any other kind of recoil) is not greater than 8 to 10% during slow fire. To get the benefits of 12 to 15% recoil reduction you'd have to be firing fairly fast (like a triple tap, or thereabouts that sort of speed).

A Pachmayr, 'Tactical Grip Glove' does NOT add that much to the overall width of the grip.

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/59086

Rex G
10-01-2012, 15:02
Thanks, Arc Angel. As my goal is to reduce pain and damage from cumulative recoil, every little bit helps. A G22, with such a barrel, carried in a holster made for the longer G35, might well be a practical solution, as I believe Safariland does make our specified duty holster for the G35.

Rex G
10-01-2012, 15:12
I don't know. The gun is actually the part below the slide with the serial number. I've made changes to my off duty piece since qualifying it and their is no issue as we have no official policy. Unofficial is we can do anything to any weapon as long as it is owned by us. Changes to city owned weapons require prior armorer approval. Maybe your department has no policy also. It's not like you will be changing the caliber or load from what you qualified with or is approved right? :)

Indeed. The K9 officer I mentioned did just that; we buy our own duty pistols. Swapping upper units is not specifically prohibited. With the news that a G35 recoils less than a G22C, I am strongly considering this option.

Thanks to all who have responded thus far! It seems the two best options are a G35 upper unit, or an extended ported barrel made for the G22, rather than the acquisition of a G22C. The advantage of a G35 is that I may be able to rent one locally for a test-fire.

barth
10-01-2012, 15:14
OK, first of all, I am aware of the disadvantages of ported pistols in real-life defensive situations, such as when shooting from a retention position. I also know the difference in felt recoil is relatively minor. That being said, I am considering a G22C as an orthopedic pistol, as my formerly stronger right wrist now hurts when shooting my SIG P229 duty pistol. I carried G22 duty pistols from 2002 to 2004, then switched to the DAK P229 for its better practical accuracy. Well, the higher bore axis of the P229, plus the snappy .40 recoil, is becoming a real problem now. I should trade a small bit of accuracy, for less damage to the old body. (The .40 S&W is my mandated duty pistol cartridge.)

Going to the lower bore axis of a Glock should mitigate the recoil-
induced pain and damage, aided by the cushioning effect of the polymer
frame. I am wondering if the ports might help things just a bit more? I
am aware that ports re-direct recoil, so the pistols recoils more straight
back, rather than torquing upward, but it seems to be the torquing
action that hurts.

I would consider buying a standard G22 barrel for actual street use.

I would especially like to hear from anyone who has adopted a "C" Glock for orthopedic reasons. Thanks for any insight/advice!

If you have to use a 40 and are having recoil issues.
Do you have any choice at all with ammo?
180 gr subsonic ammo tends to have less felt recoil to me.

Federal makes a soft shooting Hydra-Shok 165 gr 40 too.
Part Number: P40HS3GBullet Style: Hydra-Shok® JHP
Muzzle: 980 fps, 352 E

Compared to
Federal HST 165 gr 40 - Muzzel: 1130 fps, 468 E

JBS
10-01-2012, 15:18
Do I understand that your Department issue is .40 S&W and is not weapon specific? Are you allowed to supply your own weapon as long as it is .40 S&W? If this is the case go old school and use an all steel weapon. More weight and mass less recoil to your hand. I know several Officers that have gone that direction and it has worked out very well for them.

barth
10-01-2012, 16:19
Do I understand that your Department issue is .40 S&W and is not weapon specific? Are you allowed to supply your own weapon as long as it is .40 S&W? If this is the case go old school and use an all steel weapon. More weight and mass less recoil to your hand. I know several Officers that have gone that direction and it has worked out very well for them.

That's a good point I hadn't thought of.
A steel frame Sig P226 maybe?
One other option might be a Heckler and Kock P30 40.
I have one.
And the HK recoil reduction system really does seem to work.
Particularly with some Hogue rubber grips.
https://www.t-mobilepictures.com/myalbum/thumbnail/photo44/6f/00/be5a83d41aa5__1345853087000.jpeg?tw=0&th=720&s=true&rs=false

Kingarthurhk
10-01-2012, 16:51
In addition to the ported or "C" version you can get a heavier guide rod and spring.

I did that to my Glock 21C, and it kicks less than my 9mm glocks.

Arc Angel
10-01-2012, 18:57
Please return to my original answer. After thinking about things, it's been amended. :)

avenues165
10-01-2012, 22:19
Let me state first off that these guys are more knowledgeable and have more experience with pistol shooting than me.

I found with my Gen 4 G23 that I felt less perceived recoil than I do with my longslide Gen 3 G24. Maybe by using a Gen 4 G35 you might feel less perceived recoil too. The Gen 4s have the newer RSA that some believe tames the recoil of the .40.

I hope you find something that works for you! Good luck!

English
10-02-2012, 06:38
Like Arc Angel, after a little more thought I have things to add.

First is a matter of confusion between porting, compensation and muzzle brakes. Porting and compensation appear to be used interchangeably but what I meant in my post was precicely what Arc Angle's picture of one of his Glocks showed, though I was suggesting a longer barrel. That is it has slots or ports near the muzzle that direct high pressure gas upwards before the bullet leaves the barrel and so reduces muzzle flip.

A muzzle brake is more likely to be used on a rifle where muzzle climb is less important and reducing recoil is most important. Here the gas ejection is symetrical, either equally to both sides or equally all round and the hole area is greater than with a pistol because length is less critical and the gas volume is greater. For a rifle that is to be fired from prone it is clearly undesireable to have a down jet blowing dust up and such rifles tend to use side only gas ejection which is often contained in sideways pointing tubes for a short distance.

Since part of the total recoil is produced by the hot gas that follows the bullet out of the muzzle at high speed, a jet effect if you like, anything that reduces that reduces recoil. If you can direct that upwards from the muzzle end of the barrel it also reduces muzzle flip which would otherwise increase the rearward force on the web of the hand and the forward force on the little finger in particular. Relative to arthritis, this is a double benefit to hangun shooters in particular.

At one stage Leatham competed with a compensated, or ported, 9x25mm Dillon which used a necked down 10mm cartridge. This made major with ease, but more important was that the gas volume and pressure was sufficient to produce a downward muzzle flip. Obvioously there was no benefit to that and they aimed to produce loads with close to zero muzzle flip for an obvious competetive benefit.

The significance of that little story is that you get better muzzle flip reduction with rounds which have higher pressure remaining as the bullet leaves the barrel. That means that you would be better off with 155 or even 135 grain bullets rather than 180gns. The louder the bang the bigger the muzzle flip reduction!

English

Arc Angel
10-02-2012, 07:20
:thumbsup: That's pretty cool, English! Where did you pick that little scintillating fact up?

glockout
10-02-2012, 10:54
Lots of good answers already. I would make up some rounds with light weight bullets like 135 grain and load them until they cycle the slide then a bit more. I think you will be very impressed at how smooth they will shoot. Actually most any bullet can be down loaded to smooth out the recoil.

I am shooting 180 grain lead bullets at 850fps but could go down some and still have my glocks cycle.

Short Cut
10-02-2012, 11:22
See if you can rent or try a Beretta PX4 full size in .40 S&W. It is the softest shooting .40 I've ever tried. They have a rotating barrel design which really does reduce recoil.

Rex G
10-02-2012, 14:19
See if you can rent or try a Beretta PX4 full size in .40 S&W. It is the softest shooting .40 I've ever tried. They have a rotating barrel design which really does reduce recoil.

There is a rumor that the firearms training unit is evaluating a Beretta model for possible future approval as a duty pistol, but for now, my choices, for "primary duty pistol" in the duty rig, are P229, P226, G22, G23, and M&P40.

Thanks!

Rex G
10-02-2012, 14:23
Please return to my original answer. After thinking about things, it's been amended. :)

Thanks!

JBS
10-02-2012, 14:32
There is a rumor that the firearms training unit is evaluating a Beretta model for possible future approval as a duty pistol, but for now, my choices, for "primary duty pistol" in the duty rig, are P229, P226, G22, G23, and M&P40.

Thanks!

From Sig:
The SIG SAUER® P226® Stainless is the all-stainless version of our most famous SIG pistol. The added weight of an all-stainless frame provides greater recoil reduction and a quicker return to target between shots making it a favorite among Practical Shooting competitors. The P226 Stainless features a stainless steel slide machined from barstock and stainless frame with an M1913 Picatinny rail. The P226 Stainless also features the SIG SAUER four-point safety system of decocking lever, patented automatic firing pin safety block, safety intercept notch, and trigger bar disconnector.

English
10-02-2012, 16:08
:thumbsup: That's pretty cool, English! Where did you pick that little scintillating fact up?

It was an interview I read about 15ish years ago but I don't know in what. Funnily enough he said they could produce negative recoil but I assumed he meant negative muzzle flip.

I would think that 357SIG might be second best if we don't count the 9x23mm Winchester, but that is not pertinent to this thread.

English

jbglock
10-03-2012, 10:24
From Sig:
The SIG SAUER® P226® Stainless is the all-stainless version of our most famous SIG pistol. The added weight of an all-stainless frame provides greater recoil reduction and a quicker return to target between shots making it a favorite among Practical Shooting competitors. The P226 Stainless features a stainless steel slide machined from barstock and stainless frame with an M1913 Picatinny rail. The P226 Stainless also features the SIG SAUER four-point safety system of decocking lever, patented automatic firing pin safety block, safety intercept notch, and trigger bar disconnector.

Even though the Sigs I've had were very accurate I'm not a big fan because of the triggers and the outrageous prices they now command. I'd be interested though if anyone has tried that stainless 226 and a Glock 22C and can compare the difference in the type of recoil the OP is concerned about.

Brandon G
11-02-2012, 03:31
I have a gen2 22c that I love. My wife doesn't like the recoild from any of my 40cal. pistols but loves the 22c. I love the faster "back on target" time that you have with a c model. Just my .02 worth