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ABNAK
09-30-2012, 18:09
DoubleTap 357Sig rounds (*supposedly* 125gr Sierras but don't look like Sierras) that I personally chrono'd at 1452fps average. However, the ES was 154fps. Maybe that's why the ES was so high, not to mention the accuracy sucking?

What would cause a handgun bullet to keyhole?

Now, before you ask, I checked to rule out barrel causes. I have both a Glock 32 factory barrel as well as a 4" Storm Lake drop-in barrel and it keyholed with both. Checked again by using Cor Bon Sierras, Buffalo Bore GD, and Speer GD, which all gave nice round holes. The DT was in the perfect outline of a bullet profile with just about every round.

More than a little disappointed by DT, as many here have been. Not the velocity in this case but perhaps even worse.





So, just out of curiosity, what would a tumbling 125gr bullet at 1452fps do ballisitcs-wise? No doubt it wouldn't act like a normal HP would, but would it be destructive? Hell, might as well be a tumbling FMJ in that case.

Foxtrotx1
09-30-2012, 18:12
Stay away from the boutique ammo.

ABNAK
09-30-2012, 18:15
Stay away from the boutique ammo.


Unfortunately, they're the only ones who don't water down the 357Sig to mid-1300's. It was designed to replicate the .357 Magnum in it's 125gr loading, and 1350+/- is quite a bit short of that.

But yeah, I'm done with DT.

dkf
09-30-2012, 18:16
Pull a bullet and measure the diameter with a micrometer. Also look at the amount of crimp on the bullet, should be a slight ring around the bullet with no deformation. Undersized bullet are known to cause stability issues. If the bullets were not Sierras they may be Montana Gold JHPs. Montana Gold usually has quality bullet however their JHP rounds are more for target practice and not SD IMO. Post some pics if you got them.

ABNAK
09-30-2012, 18:21
Pull a bullet and measure the diameter with a micrometer. Also look at the amount of crimp on the bullet, should be a slight ring around the bullet with no deformation. Undersized bullet are known to cause stability issues. If the bullets were not Sierras they may be Montana Gold JHPs. Montana Gold usually has quality bullet however their JHP rounds are more for target practice and not SD IMO. Post some pics if you got them.

They're not Montana Golds as they don't have that "gold" color. They almost look like Winchester 125gr bullets. Will post a pic soon.

ABNAK
09-30-2012, 19:02
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd187/ABNAK/keyhole011.jpg

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd187/ABNAK/keyhole013.jpg

You can clearly see the difference in the holes (through a cheap hibachi I had in the garage that I knew would show it more decisively than paper). The two DT's are obvious, the other 3 are the BB GD, Speer GD, and CB Sierra.

The bullet on the right is a Cor Bon 125gr Sierra (from back before they made their own bullets like they do now). The one on the left is the *supposed* Sierra loaded by DoubleTap. It's easy to see the DT is NOT a Sierra.

I don't have a bullet puller so I can mic it.

dkf
09-30-2012, 21:33
Yeah they look like Winchester or Remington JHP. I checked their site and they are using Winchester or Remington JHP on other calibers. Seems kinda typical from DT for the last few years. You do not know what you are going to get.

The 115gr Winchester JHP, just slightly shorter than the 124gr. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1390208196/winchester-bullets-9mm-355-diameter-115-grain-jacketed-hollow-point

With Winchesters quality over the past couple years I would not be surprised if the bullet is undersized. I pulled a bullet out of WWB .357sig ammo and miced the bullet and it measured .353".

The description does say Sierra but the bullets in the pic sure do not look like Sierras. Guess if you want them right you have to load them yourself.:dunno:
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_32&products_id=395

unit1069
09-30-2012, 22:32
Stay away from the boutique ammo.


Yes, that's good advice. I've had both good luck and bad luck with boutique ammo. I'd be dollars ahead had I just stuck with quality American-made ammo and a few foreign rounds like Sellier & Bellot.

The boutique rounds that have worked for me are really no improvement over the big US ammo companies' offerings and typically cost more.

SCmasterblaster
10-01-2012, 09:29
I would inspect the suspect bullet's diameter, as others have said.

ABNAK
10-01-2012, 11:50
I would inspect the suspect bullet's diameter, as others have said.

I'll pull one with my buddies bullet puller and mic it later today (hopefully).

SCmasterblaster
10-01-2012, 12:43
I'll pull one with my buddies bullet puller and mic it later today (hopefully).

I would think it unlikely that the bullets are undersized, but that would account for the keyholing . . . .

avenues165
10-01-2012, 19:36
From what I can see in the photo they look like the Winchester bullet that comes in the WWB 125gr JHP.

That bullet, in my opinion, is a POS for SD. It fragments super bad. Not just a little bit of fragmentation, but full jacket separation and a thin lead disk is what you have left if shooting water jugs. It basically explodes on contact. I saved one, the retained weight is a fraction of 125gr.

SCmasterblaster
10-02-2012, 10:42
From what I can see in the photo they look like the Winchester bullet that comes in the WWB 125gr JHP.

That bullet, in my opinion, is a POS for SD. It fragments super bad. Not just a little bit of fragmentation, but full jacket separation and a thin lead disk is what you have left if shooting water jugs. It basically explodes on contact. I saved one, the retained weight is a fraction of 125gr.

If a 125 does that, my 115gr WW JHP +p+ would fragment even worse. :upeyes:

dkf
10-02-2012, 12:06
From what I can see in the photo they look like the Winchester bullet that comes in the WWB 125gr JHP.

That bullet, in my opinion, is a POS for SD. It fragments super bad. Not just a little bit of fragmentation, but full jacket separation and a thin lead disk is what you have left if shooting water jugs. It basically explodes on contact. I saved one, the retained weight is a fraction of 125gr.

I believe it, especially at over 1400fps.

SCmasterblaster
10-02-2012, 16:25
I believe it, especially at over 1400fps.

My 9mmP 115gr +p+ JHP is doing just over 1400 FPS, and I do expect that the bullet would fragment. :shocked:

avenues165
10-02-2012, 20:59
My 9mmP 115gr +p+ JHP is doing just over 1400 FPS, and I do expect that the bullet would fragment. :shocked:

I'll bet your fine with your load. The 115gr +p+ supposedly has a great street record (I can state for certain because I have not seen the data). The Fed 9BPLE (9mm 115gr +p+) gives fragmentation in gel but also has good penetration, the petals come off and the majority of the bullet weight keeps on going. That load showed a wound cavity in gel that rivals those of 357 sig. Watch it on TNOutdoors9's youtube site.

I am not at all opposed to a little fragmentation, but my experience with that particular bullet in the WWB 125gr 357 sig is that it blows apart after hitting one jug. Just too much fragmentation. I'll see if I can get a photo taken of the wrecked bullet I have from WWB 125gr 357 sig after one water jug. What a mess! I do love it for killing water jugs and bottles, very reactive targets!

avenues165
10-02-2012, 21:24
228084

Here is a photo of the bullet in question and a few others.

SCmasterblaster
10-03-2012, 11:05
228084

Here is a photo of the bullet in question and a few others.

Just look at that .357 Sig! It is no surprise that it has such a wicked rep.

Tiro Fijo
10-03-2012, 11:51
...I am not at all opposed to a little fragmentation, but my experience with that particular bullet in the WWB 125gr 357 sig is that it blows apart after hitting one jug. Just too much fragmentation...


Water jugs? Expecting to fight Aqua Man? Water jugs are worse than worthless for determining what a bullet will do in a body. What's with the Wally World defense ammo? Surely, you can afford a $30 box of quality defense ammo in .357 SIG. Buy a box of quality ammo and call it a day.

dkf
10-03-2012, 12:26
228084

Here is a photo of the bullet in question and a few others.

Squish...

Was the jacket on that 125gr JHP still hanging on or is it loose from the core.

avenues165
10-03-2012, 20:08
Water jugs? Expecting to fight Aqua Man? Water jugs are worse than worthless for determining what a bullet will do in a body. What's with the Wally World defense ammo? Surely, you can afford a $30 box of quality defense ammo in .357 SIG. Buy a box of quality ammo and call it a day.

There is no way I'll carry that stuff. I carry 125gr GDs. The WWB was not tested, just shooting water jugs for fun. But, it shows what a POS the bullet is.

It sucks for SD, but it is fun to use to blow up water bottles or jugs for fun.

avenues165
10-03-2012, 20:13
Squish...

Was the jacket on that 125gr JHP still hanging on or is it loose from the core.

No, I put it on the jacket to illustrate how smashed it is. I found the bullet on accident, what's left of the core was still on the jacket. But as I picked it up off of the ground the lead pancake fell off of the jacket.

dkf
10-03-2012, 20:25
I guess the real question is why is Double Tap using that bullet in their expensive ammo at high velocities.:dunno:

ABNAK
10-03-2012, 20:40
I guess the real question is why is Double Tap using that bullet in their expensive ammo at high velocities.:dunno:

And advertising it specifically as a Sierra.

avenues165
10-03-2012, 21:50
Has someone confirmed that they are using it?

ABNAK
10-04-2012, 00:14
Has someone confirmed that they are using it?

Look at the pic I posted of the two rounds. The one on the right is a Sierra from Cor Bon. The one on left doesn't look anything like it.

I also highly doubt they'd admit to false advertising.

ETA---just checked their website and it's still listed as Sierra. Also left a poor review.....bet it won't make it on the review page!

SCmasterblaster
10-04-2012, 10:20
I'll bet your fine with your load. The 115gr +p+ supposedly has a great street record (I can state for certain because I have not seen the data). The Fed 9BPLE (9mm 115gr +p+) gives fragmentation in gel but also has good penetration, the petals come off and the majority of the bullet weight keeps on going. That load showed a wound cavity in gel that rivals those of 357 sig. Watch it on TNOutdoors9's youtube site.

I am not at all opposed to a little fragmentation, but my experience with that particular bullet in the WWB 125gr 357 sig is that it blows apart after hitting one jug. Just too much fragmentation. I'll see if I can get a photo taken of the wrecked bullet I have from WWB 125gr 357 sig after one water jug. What a mess! I do love it for killing water jugs and bottles, very reactive targets!

Thanks for the info.

ABNAK
10-04-2012, 11:25
After I posted my review on their website last night on the 50rd box of JHP's it is now gone from their listing! They usually list 20rd, 50rd, and 500rd packages. The only one left is the 20rd one and it no longer says "Sierra". Hmmmm.......

clarkstoncz
10-04-2012, 11:38
I'll make no excuses for DT. Only that I think since another company went to a new bullet, that the SIERRA's might be in short supply, or have become cruelly expensive.

If a person doesn't want the Winchester version, then there is always the more street
proven Gold Dot, as loaded by Double Tap or Speer.

I actually like the Barnes/TAC-XPs the best ( no way for jacket/core separation) but price seems to be the factor there.

dkf
10-04-2012, 12:34
The Sierra JHPs have been in stock pretty much every place I have checked on the net in the last couple years. Probably cost cutting to use the the same bullet in 9mm and .357sig.

SCmasterblaster
10-05-2012, 09:58
I just thought of something. Has anyone inspected the muzzle crown on the subject pistol? Any dent there could cause bullet tumbling.

ABNAK
10-05-2012, 14:47
I just thought of something. Has anyone inspected the muzzle crown on the subject pistol? Any dent there could cause bullet tumbling.


It didn't do it with the other rounds. Also, used two barrels: one was a factory G32 barrel and the other was a Storm Lake drop-in. One keyhole in the pic was from each barrel.

SCmasterblaster
10-06-2012, 12:04
It didn't do it with the other rounds. Also, used two barrels: one was a factory G32 barrel and the other was a Storm Lake drop-in. One keyhole in the pic was from each barrel.

I see . . . . . :cool:

PghJim
10-06-2012, 16:06
The bullet is not Seirra. Bullets Key Hole when they are not stabilized either due to too slow rifling, or the bullet weight being strangely distributed in the bullet. The Seirra load from DT is a good round and if you have anymore of the bad rounds, please send it back to Mike and find out what is going on. That load most closely duplicates the 125gr SJHP round of the 357 mag made by Federal or Remington. In the 357 Mag (and Seirra sig), the bullet rapidly expand, fragments and loses 30-35% of its weight. 70% of the bullet penetrate over 11". Back when men were men, that was the external ballistics of probably the most effective 125gr 357magnum round. Just because we now have bonded bullets, do not fool yourself into thinking that anything before would not quickly stop a threat. Although I carry the 125gr 357 Sig HST now, I would feel very safe with the DT Seirra load, assuming DT gets its bullet issue straight.

ABNAK
10-06-2012, 18:15
The bullet is not Seirra. Bullets Key Hole when they are not stabilized either due to too slow rifling, or the bullet weight being strangely distributed in the bullet. The Seirra load from DT is a good round and if you have anymore of the bad rounds, please send it back to Mike and find out what is going on. That load most closely duplicates the 125gr SJHP round of the 357 mag made by Federal or Remington. In the 357 Mag (and Seirra sig), the bullet rapidly expand, fragments and loses 30-35% of its weight. 70% of the bullet penetrate over 11". Back when men were men, that was the external ballistics of probably the most effective 125gr 357magnum round. Just because we now have bonded bullets, do not fool yourself into thinking that anything before would not quickly stop a threat. Although I carry the 125gr 357 Sig HST now, I would feel very safe with the DT Seirra load, assuming DT gets its bullet issue straight.

Well for starters, shipping ammo is kind of a PIA; you have to get an ORM-D sticker and pay hazmat. Then of course if he isn't using Sierras now (which we've kind of ascertained here) then why go through the hassle of sending it back? All he would do (at most) is send me more of the same.

And I agree with you about the duplication of .357 magnum ballistics with bullets that aren't bonded. That is why I'm so pissed but mainly disappointed about these DT rounds. I chrono'd them at 1452fps average from a 4" barrel and was going to use them as my carry load. Now I guess it's Cor Bon for the time being until I can get some of Underwood's "improved" 357Sig, albeit a Gold Dot and not a cup-and-core bullet.

Why oh why do the major manufacturers water down the 357Sig? To me, 1330-1350fps isn't much of an improvement over a 9mm +P+ to sacrifice less capacity and more recoil.......now 1450fps? That is what I'm talking about!

PghJim
10-06-2012, 20:33
Just pull the bullet and send that. I have just started to trust DT again and if he is going to start substituting bullets again, our relationship is over.

happyguy
10-07-2012, 07:03
Water jugs? Expecting to fight Aqua Man? Water jugs are worse than worthless for determining what a bullet will do in a body. What's with the Wally World defense ammo? Surely, you can afford a $30 box of quality defense ammo in .357 SIG. Buy a box of quality ammo and call it a day.

I'm not convinced the WWB wouldn't be a good self-defense load. I've never seen a legit gelatin test of this load and just about everyone knows water is very hard on a bullet.

As far a I'm concerned it is an unknown.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

WiskyT
10-07-2012, 07:34
Well for starters, shipping ammo is kind of a PIA; you have to get an ORM-D sticker and pay hazmat. Then of course if he isn't using Sierras now (which we've kind of ascertained here) then why go through the hassle of sending it back? All he would do (at most) is send me more of the same.

And I agree with you about the duplication of .357 magnum ballistics with bullets that aren't bonded. That is why I'm so pissed but mainly disappointed about these DT rounds. I chrono'd them at 1452fps average from a 4" barrel and was going to use them as my carry load. Now I guess it's Cor Bon for the time being until I can get some of Underwood's "improved" 357Sig, albeit a Gold Dot and not a cup-and-core bullet.

Why oh why do the major manufacturers water down the 357Sig? To me, 1330-1350fps isn't much of an improvement over a 9mm +P+ to sacrifice less capacity and more recoil.......now 1450fps? That is what I'm talking about!

There are no hazmat fees for shipping loaded ammo. It needs to be marked ORM-D, but you can do it with a sharpie. Also, you can print out an ORM-D lablel and glue it on if it needs to be more "official" looking. You CAN NOT ship ammo through the US Mail however.

As to why are the loads watered down, my guess is two reasons. One, there is no advantage to driving the bullet 100fps faster. The second is that if you drive them at 1450fps and expect them to be used by anybody, at anytime, in any gun, under any conditions, you will get problems. Problems lead to a loss of good will and the manufacturer's reputation suffers.

Apparently a 125 at 1450fps, in 357Sig, is more trouble than it is worth if you are an ammo manufacturer.

If you are going to be shooting boutique ammo for the purpose of driving a 9mm 125 grain bullet at high velocity, an arbitrary goal to be sure, you would do much better with the bigger bottleneck rounds anyway. the 9x25 Dillon is available from DT and supposedly does 1700fps with a 125.

SCmasterblaster
10-07-2012, 13:12
the 9x25 Dillon is available from DT and supposedly does 1700fps with a 125.

1700 FPS out of a defensive handgun? Awesome!

ABNAK
10-07-2012, 15:42
Okay, finally got over to my buddy's and used his bullet puller. The DT 125gr miked at .351"! :wow:

I think we have the answer as to why it keyholed. :faint:

dkf
10-07-2012, 16:17
Okay, finally got over to my buddy's and used his bullet puller. The DT 125gr miked at .351"! :wow:

I think we have the answer as to why it keyholed. :faint:


Kinda what I figured. Either the bullet was undersized from the factory or DT crimped the hell out of it. I would send the whole batch back. For what they charge for their ammo it should be 110%.

ignantmike
10-07-2012, 17:21
Okay, finally got over to my buddy's and used his bullet puller. The DT 125gr miked at .351"! :wow:

I think we have the answer as to why it keyholed. :faint:
not suprised.....he has had alot of issues with his ammo....i for one would not spend money on their ammo.....

avenues165
10-08-2012, 15:27
I'm not convinced the WWB wouldn't be a good self-defense load. I've never seen a legit gelatin test of this load and just about everyone knows water is very hard on a bullet.

As far a I'm concerned it is an unknown.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

Here is a picture of a 125gr GD (5 petal design, 1,350fps). The bullet was fired into wet mud on a creek bank from a G24 with a 6" LW barrel.

228232

I don't know what the speed is from the 6" barrel. If I had to guess I would say ~1,400-1,450fps, maybe a little more. I wonder what the 6 petal design would do.

I know shooting a clay creek bank is not a scientific test of a bullet. I am posting this for information only. Take it for what it is.

Tiro Fijo
10-08-2012, 17:07
Okay, finally got over to my buddy's and used his bullet puller. The DT 125gr miked at .351"! :wow:

I think we have the answer as to why it keyholed. :faint:


Out of curiousity, did you mike only the base or farther up the bullet body as well? I ask with reason as perhaps DT is using some type of crimp setup that is squeezing down the bullet base as the .357 SIG is notorious for setback. Also, this might be a bullet vendor issue and DT does not know of it. Drop them a line.

ABNAK
10-08-2012, 19:07
Out of curiousity, did you mike only the base or farther up the bullet body as well? I ask with reason as perhaps DT is using some type of crimp setup that is squeezing down the bullet base as the .357 SIG is notorious for setback. Also, this might be a bullet vendor issue and DT does not know of it. Drop them a line.

Okay, I just slid the micrometer (mine this time) up and down the bullet and it was a consistent .352" along it's length. There wasn't a discernable cannelure, just an indentation and then resumption of diameter on the upside. Kinda looked like a mushroom.

Bottom line? It's undersized.

dkf
10-08-2012, 20:48
Kinda sounds like double tap crimped the piss out of the round and deformed the bullet making it undersized. Overpriced garbage. Hope you are sending back what is left.

Tiro Fijo
10-08-2012, 23:52
Sounds like a bullet maker issue and not at DT's feet. Call DT and let them know. :wavey:

SCmasterblaster
10-09-2012, 07:57
Okay, I just slid the micrometer (mine this time) up and down the bullet and it was a consistent .352" along it's length. There wasn't a discernable cannelure, just an indentation and then resumption of diameter on the upside. Kinda looked like a mushroom.

Bottom line? It's undersized.

.352? that is a millimeter too narrow. That is the cause of the tumbling for sure. :shocked:

ABNAK
10-09-2012, 13:36
.352? that is a millimeter too narrow. That is the cause of the tumbling for sure. :shocked:

It's .003" too narrow. Is that a millimeter?

ETA----looked it up and .039" is a millimeter, so it's far short of that. However, it appears to be more than enough to cause tumbling.

fredj338
10-09-2012, 13:53
Unfortunately, they're the only ones who don't water down the 357Sig to mid-1300's. It was designed to replicate the .357 Magnum in it's 125gr loading, and 1350+/- is quite a bit short of that.

But yeah, I'm done with DT.

Not really. Chrono some current manuf 125gr 357mag in a 4" rev, you'll belucky to get to 1350fps. Most of the factory 357sig gets to that in a 3.5"-4" pistol bbl.:dunno: The bullet keyholing is obvious @ 0.352" dia. Completely unacceptable in a factory round.
I have handloaded the 125gr Sierra to 1400fps w/ 1 1/2" 50ft accuracy. So it's not the bullet.

ABNAK
10-09-2012, 14:31
UPDATE:

Called DT and spoke to the brother of Mike. Explained everything and had sent him an email with the hibachi pic in it which he read as he spoke to me. Admitted that they had trouble getting Sierra's and substituted Winchesters. He obviously wasn't happy with the keyhole issue. Offered to send me some more 357Sig in Gold Dots if I wanted, but being a bit jaded on that caliber I elected to get the 150gr Nosler .40 load (which I have some of and like for a compact gun like my Kahr P40). He will also include in with the ammo a shipping label for me to return the remaining 357Sig rounds. I told him I'd put the pulled bullet in there too.

This to me is satisfactory customer service and I told him it was appreciated and that I would purchase DT in the future.....just maybe not 357Sig!



FWIW the 150gr Nosler .40 load chrono'd at 1167fps average from my Walther PPS's 3.2" barrel. I suspect it'll break 1200fps from my P40's 3.5" tube. Don't have the chrono anymore though to confirm it (don't ask). :crying:

Tiro Fijo
10-09-2012, 15:49
Happy ending. :cool:

On another note, just another nail in the coffin of Winchester's death spiraling QC. :upeyes:

SCmasterblaster
10-09-2012, 18:29
Happy ending. :cool:

On another note, just another nail in the coffin of Winchester's death spiraling QC. :upeyes:

A happy ending to a long story . . . . . :supergrin:

roberev
11-01-2012, 13:19
Some anecdotal evidence to support the theory that the Winchester bullet is to blame:

I took my 2 month old Glock 32 to the range today for a lunchtime diversion. I had put about 500 rounds through it before today (a combination of Gold Dots, Federal HSTs, Independents, and Remington UMCs), just to build enough confidence to start using it as my new EDC. (What a great gun and caliber!)

Today, I purchased and shot a standard white box of Winchester 125gr. JHPs. I had numerous keyholes out of the 50 round box. As I shot I thought I was hitting two rounds close together on earlier targets (and feeling rather proud, I might say). When I counted holes on the last target, however, I realized what was happening. Two holes that I thought were caused by four close shots were really two keyholes. I later pulled my discarded targets out of the garbage and found 11 more keyholes. 13 total out of a box of 50.

Rob

SCmasterblaster
11-01-2012, 13:54
I wonder what caused the keyholing? Undersized bullets?

dkf
11-01-2012, 18:54
Some anecdotal evidence to support the theory that the Winchester bullet is to blame:

I took my 2 month old Glock 32 to the range today for a lunchtime diversion. I had put about 500 rounds through it before today (a combination of Gold Dots, Federal HSTs, Independents, and Remington UMCs), just to build enough confidence to start using it as my new EDC. (What a great gun and caliber!)

Today, I purchased and shot a standard white box of Winchester 125gr. JHPs. I had numerous keyholes out of the 50 round box. As I shot I thought I was hitting two rounds close together on earlier targets (and feeling rather proud, I might say). When I counted holes on the last target, however, I realized what was happening. Two holes that I thought were caused by four close shots were really two keyholes. I later pulled my discarded targets out of the garbage and found 11 more keyholes. 13 total out of a box of 50.

Rob

Winchester likes to crimp the hell out of their ammo. I measured undersized bullets on some .357sig WWB ammo I had. The bullets measured .002" undersized. (.353")

ABNAK
11-01-2012, 21:07
I wonder what caused the keyholing? Undersized bullets?

They miked at 0.352". Supposed to be 0.355".

clarkstoncz
11-02-2012, 03:13
We have found out of spec WWB rounds in .357 SIG.
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb26/czrami/DOUBLE%20TAP%20357%20SIG/DT-ammo-range.jpg
Won't buy it anymore..the Remington stuff is cheaper anyway, if not
Double Tap 125 gr. Match ammo that seems to live up to its name.

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb26/czrami/DOUBLE%20TAP%20357%20SIG/dtfull-4.jpg

SCmasterblaster
11-02-2012, 07:44
They miked at 0.352". Supposed to be 0.355".

That would do it - a full millimeter undersized. A wobble in the barrel for sure.

roberev
11-02-2012, 15:08
Do I need to worry about damage to my barrel as a result of having shot this substandard ammo?

Rob

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

dkf
11-02-2012, 16:25
Do I need to worry about damage to my barrel as a result of having shot this substandard ammo?

Rob

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

No. The bullets were just undersize and the barrel would not stabilize them properly causing the bullet to tumble.

SCmasterblaster
11-03-2012, 11:24
No. The bullets were just undersize and the barrel would not stabilize them properly causing the bullet to tumble.

Yes indeed - a full millimeter undersized :shocked:. Oops my mistake, It isn't a full millimeter.

Beretta92guy
11-03-2012, 12:48
DoubleCRAP ammo lost my business years ago.....their over-stated velocities are one thing, and now this is another......

i've been using underwood ammo with great results......what it says on the box is exactly what it is

SCmasterblaster
11-03-2012, 13:09
DoubleCRAP ammo lost my business years ago.....their over-stated velocities are one thing, and now this is another......

i've been using underwood ammo with great results......what it says on the box is exactly what it is

I am planning on getting some Underwood ammo one day soon. I hope that it is OK.

dkf
11-03-2012, 15:37
Yes indeed - a full millimeter undersized :shocked:.

No .002" undersized in my case and .003" undersize for the OP.

1mm = .039"

To put it in laymens terms .002" - .003" is around what a human hair measures in diameter. That may seem small but it can make a REAL big difference.

SCmasterblaster
11-04-2012, 13:07
No .002" undersized in my case and .003" undersize for the OP.

1mm = .039"

To put it in laymens terms .002" - .003" is around what a human hair measures in diameter. That may seem small but it can make a REAL big difference.

My mistake - sorry!

roberev
11-12-2012, 14:50
I talked with a Winchester Ammo representative today. It seems that I am the first to put this problem on their radar screen. If any of you experience keyholing with the WWB .357 sig round, I encourage you to give them a call. I can give you the direct phone number if you PM me.

Sadly, I shot off all my ammo, so I don't have any rounds to send back to them for inspection.

Rob

Warp
11-12-2012, 17:42
Problems? With Double Tap? Noooo, I won't believe it!

Not sure why they are so popular.

dkf
11-12-2012, 18:58
I talked with a Winchester Ammo representative today. It seems that I am the first to put this problem on their radar screen. If any of you experience keyholing with the WWB .357 sig round, I encourage you to give them a call. I can give you the direct phone number if you PM me.

Sadly, I shot off all my ammo, so I don't have any rounds to send back to them for inspection.

Rob

They don't want to list the number to call them or e-mail so I said the hell with it. Will not buy any of their ammo anymore either. I have pics of both undersized bullets with the mic on it for measurement and photos of a crushed round. Two boxes bought about a year apart both with major flaws.

roberev
11-13-2012, 06:36
They don't want to list the number to call them or e-mail so I said the hell with it. Will not buy any of their ammo anymore either. I have pics of both undersized bullets with the mic on it for measurement and photos of a crushed round. Two boxes bought about a year apart both with major flaws.

I got their telephone number off of the Internet. When I called, they gave me a direct line for when I want to call back.

If you send me your photos by PM I will forward them to Winchester. They were asking for such information to help them investigate the matter.

Rob

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

SCmasterblaster
11-14-2012, 07:39
I talked with a Winchester Ammo representative today. It seems that I am the first to put this problem on their radar screen. If any of you experience keyholing with the WWB .357 sig round, I encourage you to give them a call. I can give you the direct phone number if you PM me.

Sadly, I shot off all my ammo, so I don't have any rounds to send back to them for inspection.

Rob

I wonder if these folks ever test their own ammo?