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Andrew Wiggin
10-02-2012, 10:38
Go to the end of the thread for the most recent test.


So my lovely and thoughtful wife bought me a 10mm Witness for Christmas and I've had a lot of fun working up loads for it. Problem is there really isn't a whole lot of terminal ballistic data available so I have no idea which bullets will hold together well or penetrate to what depth. I did a couple water tests but those were less than definitive and disappointing if the penetration results were to be believed. Worse, it seemed that they were inconsistent with other available data. So I decided the only way to get good data was to gather it myself. Here is my attempt at ballistic gel. Let me know how badly you think I did.

Proper ballistic gelatin is 10% by weight 250 bloom photographer's gelatin. That means 10% of the weight is gelatin and 90% of the weight is water. It is kept at 39 F and is calibrated by a .177 cal steel BB at 590 fps +/- 15fps. The calibration shot(s) should be between 2.95"-3.74". 250 bloom photographer's gelatin is expensive so I bought grocery store unflavored gelatin. I did the math and found that 10% should put me at about 1 cup of water per ounce of gelatin. I bought three 8oz packages of Kroger gelatin and mixed it up with 24 cups of water but it didn't calibrate correctly. I bought another three 8oz packages, Knox this time and mixed it with 18 cups of water, melted both batches down and mixed together. So that's a total of 48oz (by weight) of gelatin with 42 fl oz of water.That got me close to what I was looking for but I had to melt and add water a couple times again. The final mix was 48 oz gelatin to 45 cups water. I've since doubled the batch and confirmed that ratio, but if you make some up, it might be better for you to start a cup or two short just because it's easier to add water than remove it. My procedure follows.

Open all the packages into a bowl for easy pouring. Measure 45 (or a bit less) cups of hot tap water (I have since found that cold water produces less clumping so I mix it cold and then heat in a double boiler) into a bucket, along with a few drops of bleach (to prevent mold) and a few drops of Jet Dry to prevent foaming. Start the water moving with a mixer and slowly pour in the gelatin. Be careful to pour slowly enough to avoid clumps but some are probably inevitable. Allow to cool and refrigerate for about a day. Heat in a double boiler until just melted, stir, and pour into molds. Allow to cool and refrigerate again for several days. It gets firmer after several days and it has to be all the way down to 39 throughout for calibration to have any meaning. Fire a 590 fps +/- 15 fps .177 cal BB into the block and measure the penetration. In the picture below, the bottom shot took place at about one day in the fridge and it measured 4". The shots above that took place at about three days and measure, bottom to top: 3", 3 1/8", 3 1/4", 3 1/8". The other picture was a .22 cal pellet from a Benjamin Sheridan pellet rifle just for fun. It penetrated 4 1/2".

After a test, I cut the blocks to get good photos of the "wound" track and put them in a double boiler to remelt. I just use a plastic bucket (about 2 gal, I think) for the gelatin and a large stock pot for the water. I keep the stove on medium and try not to let the gelatin completely melt while it's in the water. As it melts, I pour it out and add more blocks to keep the temperature from getting too high. When I'm down to the last of it, I remove it from the heat before it's completely melted and let it finish melting on the counter. The warm gelatin is usually enough to melt a few smaller chunks. I pour through a wire mesh grease splatter screen first to remove the larger chunks of denim, dirt, lead, copper, and BBs, then I pour through a "permanent" wire mesh coffee filter to remove the smaller particles. It all goes into a large bucket until it's all melted and then into the molds. For molds I just use cheap Sterlite tubs from Walmart.

http://imageshack.us/a/img845/7182/dsc03720me.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img546/3208/dsc03721a.jpg




Here's a new test with a bit more precise data:

BB calibration: 590.8 fps, 3" penetration
.22lr from Walther P-22: 36 gr CCI Mini-Mag hollow point at 970.0 fps, 8 3/8" penetration
I got distracted by something shiny and forgot to place 4 layers of denim in front of the .22lr shot.


http://img547.imageshack.us/img547/5269/bb5913in36grcciminimag9.jpg

Andrew Wiggin
10-02-2012, 10:39
I went ahead and melted the blocks down to mix in a cup of water. I think I might actually need two cups but you can always add more water. It's a lot harder to get the water out. I poured the gel through a screen and took a pic and measurements of the .22lr. The retained weight was 35.7 gr and the diameter was approximately 0.335". I didn't find any fragments. There was absolutely no deformation on the pellet.


http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/5267/36grcciminimag0335india.jpg

Any Cal.
10-02-2012, 12:33
Wow! Maybe you need to find a hobby or smething... :-)

Nice approach, I am interested to see how it plays out.

nickE10mm
10-02-2012, 15:13
Very cool ... :popcorn:

Taterhead
10-02-2012, 20:31
Cool project! I barely have enough time these days to keep up with loading and ballistically unloading my brass.

I look forward to your results. Thanks for starting a cool thread.

Yondering
10-02-2012, 22:59
I like it. Sure, it's a lot of work, but this sounds a lot easier (and cheaper) than true ballistic gelatin.

Couple questions:
- What are you using for molds?
- Why do you have to let the gelatin set up for a day, and then pour it into the molds, instead of putting it straight in the molds? Is this for consistency?

The BB pictures are cool; it looks like the BB's actually bounced back a tiny bit.

I wonder if you could inject food dye in the bullet track for better pictures?

I'm going to have to try some of this. Thanks for posting.

Andrew Wiggin
10-04-2012, 10:31
It's definitely cheaper but my process is pretty close to what I've read on preparing the real stuff.

Just using el cheapo Sterlite tubs I found at Home Depot. They are 6 qt, 13 5/8" x 8 1/4" x 4 7/8". (Now I'm using twice as much in larger tubs) Two of them fit my batch of gelatin (48oz dry) perfectly. I wiped the inside of the tubs with some vegetable oil and a paper towel so the gelatin would release easily (I discovered this isn't necessary, either).

When you first mix the gelatin, it's not really thoroughly mixed and there are small clumps and inconsistencies because the gelatin isn't fully hydrated. It takes some time for the water to completely soak in. It might work to go straight into the double boiler but the procedures I've read for real 10% ordnance gel have it sit for several hours in the fridge.

I do think the BBs either bounced back, as you say, or split the gelatin farther forward than they actually traveled. Nevertheless, I'm measuring from the leading edge of the BB.

The track would probably be more visible but then the dye would stay in when I remelted and the gel would gradually darken.


Recalibrated today and I'm dead on 3" again with a BB velocity of 595.9 fps. I'm going to remelt and add two cups of water. I'm going to shoot this SOB on Saturday, regardless of how it calibrates. I have more opportunities to fiddle with the mix than I do to get out and shoot. I think I'll hit it with a 165 gr Gold Dot at 1,302 fps first.

nickE10mm
10-04-2012, 10:39
It's definitely cheaper but my process is pretty close to what I've read on preparing the real stuff.

Just using el cheapo Sterlite tubs I found at Home Depot. They are 6 qt, 13 5/8" x 8 1/4" x 4 7/8". Two of them fit my batch of gelatin (48oz dry) perfectly. I wiped the inside of the tubs with some vegetable oil and a paper towel so the gelatin would release easily.

When you first mix the gelatin, it's not really thoroughly mixed and there are small clumps and inconsistencies because the gelatin isn't fully hydrated. It takes some time for the water to completely soak in. It might work to go straight into the double boiler but the procedures I've read for real 10% ordnance gel have it sit for several hours in the fridge.

I do think the BBs either bounced back, as you say, or split the gelatin farther forward than they actually traveled. Nevertheless, I'm measuring from the leading edge of the BB.

The track would probably be more visible but then the dye would stay in when I remelted and the gel would gradually darken.


Recalibrated today and I'm dead on 3" again with a BB velocity of 595.9 fps. I'm going to remelt and add two cups of water. I'm going to shoot this SOB on Saturday, regardless of how it calibrates. I have more opportunities to fiddle with the mix than I do to get out and shoot. I think I'll hit it with a 165 gr Gold Dot at 1,302 fps first.

:-) me likey

Yondering
10-04-2012, 22:27
Very cool, and thanks for the answers. Putting this on my list of projects to do...

I'd like to see your results when you shoot it.

Taterhead
10-04-2012, 23:09
I think I'll hit it with a 165 gr Gold Dot at 1,302 fps first.

That should be a winner. Hopefully you'll get some good photos.

Andrew Wiggin
10-05-2012, 14:30
Very cool, and thanks for the answers. Putting this on my list of projects to do...

I'd like to see your results when you shoot it.

Definitely. I'll shoot it tomorrow and probably post results on Monday(ish).

If the test is successful and I'm happy with the performance of the gelatin, I'll post a more straightforward rundown on my process.

Andrew Wiggin
10-08-2012, 13:46
I had some trouble with my chrono and it missed the velocity on several BB calibration shots. There were also a few that came in well under the acceptable velocity of 590-610fps. My BB gun seems to shoot faster when it's cold. Maybe I'll keep it in the cooler with the gel next time. http://www.ar15.com/images/smilies/smiley_abused.gif I finally got a couple shots that were close to the right velocity so the calibration shot will be 586.4 fps (still a touch low) and 3.5". The 10mm shots are taken through 4 layers of denim using an EAA Witness 4.5" barrel.

First up is 180 gr XTP over 11.8gr of AA#7, 1.255" COL, at a measured impact velocity of 1,290. Penetration is 13.25". It exited the first block and went a about an inch and a quarter into the second block. Next time I'll have to cut the blocks even so there is no air space between them. I don't know how much, if any, effect that has. You can see that this bullet fragmented a bit. I was going to weigh the recovered fragments, but the piece you see in the on picture got left out there. Sorry. Maximum expansion is 0.898" and minimum is 0.636". Retained weight is 174.8 gr.

10mm 180gr XTP @ 1,290 fps gelatin test - YouTube

http://imageshack.us/a/img824/3228/dsc03750o.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img844/3691/dsc03776j.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img18/1840/dsc03779dn.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img18/9585/dsc03788ti.jpg

Andrew Wiggin
10-08-2012, 13:46
Deleted to speed page loading.

nickE10mm
10-08-2012, 13:49
I asked too soon ... removed post.

Andrew Wiggin
10-08-2012, 13:49
Since the XTP barely touched the second block, I reversed it and placed it at the front. Next up is 165 gr Gold Dot over 12.3 gr of AA#7, 1.255". I missed the actual impact velocity of this shot but the average for this load is 1,310 fps. Penetration was 12". This shot exited the first block and was found laying between the two. There was absolutely no fragmentation or jacket separation. These Gold Dots are TOUGH. Maximum expansion was 0.837" and minimum was 0.779". Retained weight was 165.0gr.


10mm 165 gr Gold Dot @ 1,310 fps gelatin test - YouTube

http://imageshack.us/a/img832/1963/dsc03752fa.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img267/2628/dsc03757h.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img11/121/dsc03782et.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img802/2567/dsc03783p.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img341/4002/dsc03785s.jpg

Andrew Wiggin
10-08-2012, 13:49
Deleted to speed page loading.

Taterhead
10-08-2012, 20:39
Nice work, Andrew. I really like those 165 gr Gold Dots. That seems to be a really good speed for them.

Quick side note, you probably mean 1.255" COL rather than 2.255" in posts 12 & 15.

Andrew Wiggin
10-08-2012, 20:49
Nice work, Andrew. I really like those 165 gr Gold Dots. That seems to be a really good speed for them.

Quick side note, you probably mean 1.255" COL rather than 2.255" in posts 12 & 15.

LOL, sorry. I'll fix it.

Yondering
10-09-2012, 00:10
Cool stuff, thanks for posting your results.

Re. the space between the blocks, how about flipping one block upside down? That should let the ends mate up if they're both from the same mold.

Andrew Wiggin
10-09-2012, 09:33
I feel kinda dumb now. Good call.

Andrew Wiggin
10-11-2012, 10:00
I'm going to shoot this stuff again Saturday, if we can get a sitter. I've had some comments on the other board that grocery store gelatin doesn't yield the same results so I plan to fire at least one shot of .40 S&W 180 gr factory Gold Dot into it from my Glock 22 to help establish a baseline that we can compare to professional tests. On the one hand I'd like to get on with testing lots of other loads but on the other hand I think I need to address the concern that my gel may not yield accurate results. To that end I was thinking that I could probably get two shots into each block, for a total of 4 shots. So what do you think? Should I shoot the block four times with .40 or is one shot sufficient to tell us whether the gelatin is close? If I only shoot it once with the .40, what other load do you want to see tested? The two I'm most interested in seeing are Buffalo Bore 10mm 180 gr JHP and my hand loaded 65 gr Game King over 24.0 gr of TAC at about 2,950.

nickE10mm
10-11-2012, 11:11
I'd like to see the 135gr Nosler at 1500+fps... and I'd like to see a 200gr WFNGC at 1300+. :) The 180gr GD is also something I'm interested in.

RWBlue
10-11-2012, 11:50
Sorry for jumping in late, but you might also want to look at Corbin gel.
http://www.corbins.com/sim-test.htm

I bought some.
Used it.
Loved it.
Remelted it multiple times.
Stored it in ziplock containers.

Andrew Wiggin
10-12-2012, 18:16
Sorry for jumping in late, but you might also want to look at Corbin gel.
http://www.corbins.com/sim-test.htm

I bought some.
Used it.
Loved it.
Remelted it multiple times.
Stored it in ziplock containers.

tnoutdoors9 is already doing 10mm tests on YouTube using that stuff. I believe it is probably pretty close to ballistic gelatin but some folks have been critical of the fact that it is NOT actually gelatin and therefore may yield dramatically different results.

Besides, this batch cost me $40. SimTest is a lot more expensive.

RWBlue
10-12-2012, 20:07
SimTest is a lot more expensive.

Simtest is reusable. Again and Again and Again and .... Just set it up on a clean surface. The jacket and lead will fall to the bottom when remelting.

BTW, If you like what you are doing, continue. If you don't..... I just wanted to post another option.

Andrew Wiggin
10-13-2012, 12:13
Simtest is reusable. Again and Again and Again and .... Just set it up on a clean surface. The jacket and lead will fall to the bottom when remelting.

BTW, If you like what you are doing, continue. If you don't..... I just wanted to post another option.

Gelatin can be reused several times too. Just remelt in a double boiler.

Sorry if I came off as snarky. Text doesn't really allow for the subtleties of tone.

RWBlue
10-13-2012, 21:07
Sorry if I came off as snarky. Text doesn't really allow for the subtleties of tone.

Understood. :wavey:

I have the same problem at times. Then there are times I read something into someone's post which is not written.

Andrew Wiggin
10-13-2012, 21:45
Otay, I got a chance to go out again today and play with my jelly. the results are below. Sorry but my video camera died. I have crappy video from my digital still camera I might post later.

BB calibration was 603.4 fps and 3.5"

http://imageshack.us/a/img252/5766/dsc03792y.jpg


I fired two rounds of factory .40 S&W 180gr Speer Gold Dot from a Glock 22 into one block. In the photo, the top round had an impact velocity of 1,027 fps and the bottom round had an impact velocity of 988.0 fps. They penetrated 11.25" and 15" respectively. Both were fired through four layers of denim. One bullet literally stopped between the two blocks. I'll post pics and measurements of recovered bullets after I melt the blocks down.

http://imageshack.us/a/img201/670/dsc03800x.jpg


http://imageshack.us/a/img213/5848/dsc03804nb.jpg



I couldn't find any data on a .40 Gold Dot at 1,027 fps (not sure why that one was so fast, either) but I did find a page that showed an FBI test of the Gold Dot at 982 fps and that penetrated 14.5". That's close enough to my results to make me happy. Six feet per second and half an inch isn't much difference.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/40s&w.htm

Andrew Wiggin
10-13-2012, 21:46
(removed at request of moderator to stay on topic)

Texas JB
10-13-2012, 21:46
3 packets of jello in a Tupperware container

Andrew Wiggin
10-14-2012, 17:48
Jello has other ingredients that might effect the consistency but besides that if you mix Jello according to its instructions, it will be WAY too soft to represent tissue. If you mix it up dense enough to approximate tissue three packets would be a very small amount.

Unflavored gelatin is far more cost effective.

Andrew Wiggin
10-16-2012, 10:59
I just finished remelting the gelatin so here are a few more numbers.

The .40S&W shots from above:

The bullet that impacted at 988.0 fps and penetrated 15":

Min expansion: 0.705"
Max expansion: 0.805"
Retained weight: 178.0 gr

The bullet that impacted at 1,027 fps and penetrated 11.75":

Min expansion: 0.622"
Max expansion: 0.650"
Retained weight: 178.5 gr

Paul53
10-16-2012, 23:54
Very impressive work. Your wife got a sister?

Andrew Wiggin
10-17-2012, 10:38
Do you know how many times I hear that? ;^)

Sorry, no.

But in accordance with the rules of a certain *other* forum:

http://imageshack.us/a/img825/9407/09064.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img593/5611/fh000008.jpg

RWBlue
10-17-2012, 12:12
D
http://imageshack.us/a/img825/9407/09064.jpg


That is a lot of food for a sister. I think she will need more to drink.

RWBlue
10-17-2012, 12:24
I just finished remelting the gelatin so here are a few more numbers and a very surprising result:

The bullet that impacted at 988.0 fps and penetrated 15":

Min expansion: 0.705"
Max expansion: 0.805"
Retained weight: 178.0 gr

The bullet that impacted at 1,027 fps and penetrated 11.75":

Min expansion: 0.622"
Max expansion: 0.650"
Retained weight: 178.5 gr

The 65 gr 5.56mm hand load:

Min expansion: 0.412"
Max expansion: 0.547"
Retained weight: 34.9 gr

The 75 gr Prvi Partisan BTHP:

Min expansion: 0.355"
Max expansion: 0.594"
Retained weight: 46.4 gr


Wait, wut? BTHP bullets aren't supposed to expand. They usually yaw and then fragment but it sure as hell looks like this one expanded.

http://imageshack.us/a/img138/5116/dsc03824m.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img35/4465/dsc03826yd.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img9/161/dsc03829ej.jpg


Interdasting.

You lost me.
What was the original bullet weight and was this 10mm or 40S&W?

As far as 75 gr Prvi Partisan BTHP, I think the results are going to very drastically with barrel twist and velocity. I want to say that the 77gr SMK hand loads fragmented when shooting at my gel at short ranges. 55gr handload would smoosh the lead out of the jacket. 62gr military ammo would fragment as expected. 70gr Speer handloads expanded nicely.

Andrew Wiggin
10-17-2012, 14:39
Sorry. The first two shots my post that you quoted are referring to the .40 S&W shots I fired above. I'll edit to make it more clear. The original bullet weight was 180 gr.

Both the 65 gr and the 75 gr bullets did fragment significantly, as evidenced by the fact that they only retained about half their respective weights. The Game King was expected to expand but BTHP or OTM bullets typically don't expand so this was surprising. I'll need to shoot a few more of these to verify the results.

Twist rate has virtually no effect on terminal bullet performance. It will determine whether a bullet is stable enough to reach the target, of course, but no twist is fast enough to stabilize a bullet through tissue. Barrel length will affect velocity, which will determine the degree to which a bullet expands and/or fragments.

55 gr bullets with a cannelure often fragment well if they are pushed fast enough. M193 tends to fragment more reliably than M855. M855 has somewhat unpredictable characteristics in that area.

I hope to be able to get out again this weekend. Next on the docket is 180gr Buffalo Bore 10mm and probably Yugo M67 ball. I'd like to test some 200gr XTP 10mm hand loads eventually but I haven't gotten around to buying the bullets yet and I haven't decided whether I'd rather trickle and weigh each charge with the 800X I already have on hand or buy some AA#9.

nickE10mm
10-18-2012, 14:38
I'd like to test some 200gr XTP 10mm hand loads eventually but I haven't gotten around to buying the bullets yet and I haven't decided whether I'd rather trickle and weigh each charge with the 800X I already have on hand or buy some AA#9.


Actually, you just reminded me! I'd like to see the difference in penetration and expansion between a 200gr XTP @ 1300+ vs the same bullet at 1150fps .... doesn't seem that big of a difference but think about it this way. Doubletap's 200gr load goes about 1125-1150. Underwood's goes 1250. My handloads go up to 1325. I'd like to see the difference in wounding, if any.

Andrew Wiggin
10-19-2012, 10:46
I'd like to see that too. I suspect that the slower load will penetrate more.

Andrew Wiggin
10-21-2012, 13:25
BB calibration was 597 fps and 3.25" for one block and 602 fps and 3.75" for the other block.

http://imageshack.us/a/img839/2174/dsc03846j.jpg


First up: 200 gr XTP over 8.1 gr of 800-X. I forgot to place the denim over the block for this test. At first I was pretty disappointed but I had intended for this load to be my woods load and critters don't usually wear clothes. From other tests I know that the XTP still performs through denim and generally JHPs seem to penetrate a bit less in bare gelatin. Anyway, it is what it is. Sorry I forgot. I'll definitely retest with the denim. The first shot had an impact velocity of 1,134 fps and penetrated 15.75". The second shot had an impact velocity of 1,142 fps and penetrated 15.5".

http://imageshack.us/a/img210/5739/dsc03847wq.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img840/3299/dsc03849h.jpg



Next is 180 gr Buffalo Bore. The first shot impacted at 1,335 fps and penetrated 14.5". The second shot impacted at 1,330 and I got distracted by something shiny and neglected to measure penetration.

http://imageshack.us/a/img546/3312/dsc03851ls.jpg

Andrew Wiggin
10-21-2012, 13:26
Off topic.

Andrew Wiggin
10-21-2012, 15:53
200 gr XTP:

BB calibration: 602 fps, 3.75"

Bullet #1
Retained weight: 182.3 gr
Max expansion: 0.683"
Min expansion: 0.622"

Bullet #2
Retained weight: 187.8 gr
Max expansion: 0.690"
Min expansion: 0.601"



10MM 200 gr XTP @ 1,142 fps gelatin test - YouTube

http://imageshack.us/a/img26/1314/dsc03846at.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img850/2333/dsc03847q.jpg


http://imageshack.us/a/img138/4628/dsc03873c.jpg


http://imageshack.us/a/img842/8179/dsc03874s.jpg

Andrew Wiggin
10-21-2012, 17:18
180 gr Buffalo Bore:

BB calibration: 597 fps, 3.25"

Retained weight: 167.8 gr
Max expansion: 0.734"
Min expansion: 0.670"


10mm 180 gr Buffalo Bore ( MT Gold bullet) @ 1,335 fps gelatin test - YouTube


http://imageshack.us/a/img16/4612/dsc03850l.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img811/456/dsc03866sx.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img267/5524/dsc03869f.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img542/4122/dsc03871o.jpg

Andrew Wiggin
10-29-2012, 13:11
I retested the 200 gr XTP at a lower velocity and with the addition of denim. Good news: it goes plenty deep at this velocity when fired through denim. Bad news: it REALLY doesn't want to expand. All three shots failed to expand and only one came to a rest inside the gelatin. Unfortunately, because of this and because one of the Gold Dots left the side of the block, both blocks had been shot up pretty badly and really didn't give the opportunity to take any good pictures.

200 gr XTP @ 1,037 fps:

10mm 200 gr XTP @ 1037 fps gelatin test - YouTube

http://imageshack.us/a/img716/653/dsc03919cy.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img405/9135/dsc03921l.jpg



180 gr Gold Dot @ 1,317 fps:

10mm 180 gr Gold Dot @ 1,317 fps gelatin test - YouTube

http://imageshack.us/a/img338/612/dsc03916jx.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img694/3715/dsc03917t.jpg



Next up: 65 gr Sierra Game King hand load and 75 gr Prvi Partisan BTHP. Both from 11.5" AR. Unless I get distracted by something shiny.

nickE10mm
10-29-2012, 14:49
Excellent info, Andrew!! I'll be looking through all of this again later tonight....

Andrew Wiggin
11-10-2012, 23:38
CORBON 180 gr bonded core soft point:

BB calibration: 603.5 fps, 3.75"

All except the first shot passed completely through both blocks and failed to stop in a jug. The first shot stopped in the first jug. The blocks are 28" together and the jug was about 4" thick. That tells me the actual penetration ought to be more than 28" but less than 30".

Shot #1:

Impact velocity: 1,228 fps
Penetration: >28"
TSC: ~1.75"
Retained weight: 179.9 gr

Shot #2:

1,198 fps

Shot #3:

1,212 fps

Shot #4:

1,194 fps

10mm CORBON 180 gr BCSP - YouTube


http://imageshack.us/a/img545/2824/dsc04116g.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img11/1654/dsc04122jg.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img163/7793/dsc04117fn.jpg

(disregard the shot in the center of the following pic, it's from a rifle)
http://imageshack.us/a/img443/2002/dsc04155w.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img594/9919/dsc04163uw.jpg

MakeMineA10mm
11-14-2012, 13:20
Great thread. I've stickied it, because terminal ballistics are as important a piece of studying 10mm Reloading as internal and external ballistics, and Andrew has really kicked this off with an excellent series of work here. I've been planning to do my own gel tests, but something always gets in the way. Andrew has inspired me, and I hope to add my own tests here in the future, as well as seeing others' do so.

Andrew Wiggin
11-14-2012, 13:33
Thank you, sir. I've cleaned up the posts a bit and replaced the hi-res images with smaller ones to speed up the page loading. I still have all the images and videos so if someone wants to see something particular, let me know and I'll post a link to a higher resolution image. I'm still experimenting with the best way to photograph the wound tracks.

nickE10mm
11-14-2012, 19:08
Thank you, sir. I've cleaned up the posts a bit and replaced the hi-res images with smaller ones to speed up the page loading. I still have all the images and videos so if someone wants to see something particular, let me know and I'll post a link to a higher resolution image. I'm still experimenting with the best way to photograph the wound tracks.

Andrew.... what I PERSONALLY would like is this:

You show the shots and the results and that is crucial and most important... HOWEVER.... I would also like to see your comments and opinions on each of the tests since YOU are seeing them FIRSTHAND, ie.. the wound tracks and overall OOMPH of each bullet and velocity on the gel / media. Sure, I can watch your video and check the wound tracks from your pics but YOU were there firsthand and could probably add comments like "wow, this had an impressive wound channel as I suspected / didn't suspect... It really shines at 1350 vs 1150fps" or.... "I don't see much of a difference in ANY of the wound tracks" etc etc ....

Because, as the tester, your opinion counts as extra credit! :)

Andrew Wiggin
11-19-2012, 12:23
10mm Underwood 155 gr Gold Dot @ ~ 1,448 fps - YouTube



10mm 200 gr XTP over 8.3 gr 800-X @ ~1,140 - YouTube

domestique
11-19-2012, 21:52
Some great info,

Thank you sir for your hard work.

Any chance of getting 135 grain Nosler, and 200 grain WFNGC data?

Andrew Wiggin
11-19-2012, 22:08
A user on another forum sent me some 220 gr Underwood hard cast to test but that's not going to happen until I can set up my gelatin for WAY more penetration. I'll probably use about 6"-8" pipe or concrete mold to do it but I'll need several FEET of it.

I'd like to do some 135 gr Nosler some day but I gotta say it's not going to penetrate anywhere near far enough to be suitable for defense. I'm sure it'll be an impressive bomb but #8 birdshot makes a really nasty wound too. It just doesn't go anywhere near deep enough to reliably stop threats.

MakeMineA10mm
11-20-2012, 12:43
Andrew, your comment brings up the biggest obstacle I've run into, which is a decent form to use as a mold for the gel. I like something square (or at least with a flat bottom) so it doesn't roll off or need propped on the table. I like the plastic boxes you used. I bought a dozen when they were on sale years ago, and use them to keep reloading projects organized and separated, but they impress me as being a little too thin, top to bottom. Are they about 4-5" tall?

I'd like to find something that is square, about 10"(h) x 10"(w) x 20" (Long), preferrably plastic, and with a handle and a lid...

Any ideas?

RWBlue
11-20-2012, 14:12
Andrew, your comment brings up the biggest obstacle I've run into, which is a decent form to use as a mold for the gel. I like something square (or at least with a flat bottom) so it doesn't roll off or need propped on the table. I like the plastic boxes you used. I bought a dozen when they were on sale years ago, and use them to keep reloading projects organized and separated, but they impress me as being a little too thin, top to bottom. Are they about 4-5" tall?

I'd like to find something that is square, about 10"(h) x 10"(w) x 20" (Long), preferrably plastic, and with a handle and a lid...

Any ideas?

Ziplock made some containers that were 10x10x6. They were the best thing I could find at the time. Had lids. Had sides that wasn't exactly vertical. Has a slightly concaved bottom.

I could pop them out and lay them on their sides giving me a 10x10 surface to shoot at. Then by only being 6 inches deep, I could get to the bullet without cutting up the entire block.

The I would rearrange them so I had fresh gel to shoot and if something over penetrated I had a way of catching it.

Andrew Wiggin
11-20-2012, 18:33
Best I can say is to go to Walmart and look at their vast array of Rubbermaid and Sterlite tubs. If I do the concrete mold route, I'll just put a couple phone books on the table to keep the "block" from rolling off. I'll tape the bottom off really well with duct tape and stick a trash bag in, then pour the gelatin into the bag. I'll probably only do this method rarely because I anticipate losing quite a bit of gelatin from the folds in the bag. I'm sure it will be messy and a PITA.

RWBlue
11-20-2012, 19:49
Best I can say is to go to Walmart and look at their vast array of Rubbermaid and Sterlite tubs. If I do the concrete mold route, I'll just put a couple phone books on the table to keep the "block" from rolling off. I'll tape the bottom off really well with duct tape and stick a trash bag in, then pour the gelatin into the bag. I'll probably only do this method rarely because I anticipate losing quite a bit of gelatin from the folds in the bag. I'm sure it will be messy and a PITA.

You may have an idea there. I have rubber made tubs. If I line the rub with a garbage bag.....I could seal up my gel. Heck, I could use a backpack for an interesting shape.

Andrew Wiggin
11-20-2012, 21:34
I use el cheapo Sterlite tubs. I actually don't need any trash bag or anything. The inside is very smooth and releases pretty easily. The big thing is to let them cool, covered, to room temperature while stirring the condensed water back into the gel once or twice an hour. Otherwise you lose a lot of water to evaporation.

Andrew Wiggin
11-29-2012, 21:43
Tested Hornady 165 gr Critical Defense and Precision Cartridge 180 gr Golden Saber today. I'll probably post the pics and video as well as bullet measurements tomorrow if I get a chance to melt the blocks down but here are the numbers from today's test:


BB calibration: 599.3 fps, 3.6"

10mm Hornady Critical Defense 165 gr

Velocity, penetration

1,135 fps, 12.6"
1,148 fps, 12.2"
1,148 fps, 12.8"
1,144 fps, 12.7"



BB calibration: 594.0 fps, 3.75"

Precision Cartridge 180 gr Golden Saber:

Velocity, penetration

1,161 fps, 13.8"
1,150 fps, (this one actually angled up a bit and left one block, then left a small mark where it hit the second block and I couldn't find it)
1,162 fps, 13.8"
1,139 fps, 13.7"

Andrew Wiggin
11-30-2012, 13:21
10mm Precision Cartridge 180 gr Golden Saber - YouTube


10mm 165 gr Hornady Critical Defense - YouTube

Andrew Wiggin
12-07-2012, 14:17
10mm Parabellum Research 165gr Zero JHP - YouTube

10mm MAC Razorback 165 gr Montana Gold bullet - YouTube

Andrew Wiggin
12-23-2012, 20:05
10mm Corbon 150 gr JHP - YouTube


10mm Precision One 180 gr JHP - YouTube



I also tested 200 gr HAP over 8.3 gr of 800-X at 1,153 fps but I didn't get any video of it. Here are the numbers and pics, though:

Penetration: 19.4"
Weight retention: 198.1 gr
Max expansion: 0.623"
Min expansion: 0.442"

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/4191/img0351dg.jpg


http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/9083/img0376ef.jpg


http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/3336/img0378vj.jpg

Andrew Wiggin
01-05-2013, 16:58
10mm 200 gr Black Talon - YouTube


10mm 180 gr Prvi Partizan JHP - YouTube

Andrew Wiggin
01-14-2013, 13:56
Gel test: 10mm 220 gr Underwood hardcast - YouTube

Andrew Wiggin
01-22-2013, 14:38
10mm hand load fired from EAA Witness through four layers of denim. 155 gr Barnes TAC-XP over 8.0 gr of 800-X, new Starline brass, Winchester LP primer. Data is noted in the video and in video description.

Gel test: 10mm 155 gr Barnes TAC-XP @ 1,165 fps - YouTube

Andrew Wiggin
02-04-2013, 10:57
Video:

http://youtu.be/fIya7tdvERI


10mm Underwood 135 gr Nosler JHP fired from EAA Witness 4.5" barrel through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin.

BB calibration: 591.4 fps, 3.3"

Impact velocity: 1,568 fps
Penetration: 7.9"
Retained weight: 80.4 gr
Max expansion: 0.745"
Min expansion: 0.529"

Andrew Wiggin
02-21-2013, 08:37
Gel test: 10mm PBR 200 gr Hornady XTP - YouTube

Andrew Wiggin
02-21-2013, 09:05
Gel test: 10mm Underwood 155 gr XTP - YouTube

Andrew Wiggin
02-21-2013, 09:11
Gel test: 10mm PBR 180 gr Zero JHP - YouTube

Andrew Wiggin
04-02-2013, 13:53
Gel test: 10mm 180 gr HST over 11.2 gr AA#7 - YouTube

Andrew Wiggin
04-24-2013, 12:45
10mm CORBON 135 gr Pow'RBall

10mm CORBON 135 gr Pow'RBall fired from 4.5" bbl EAA Witness through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin.

BB calibration: 600.8", 3.5"

Impact velocity: (Err), 1,425 fps
Penetration: 8.6", 8.6"
Retained weight: 129.3 gr, 122.9 gr
Max expansion: 0.848", 0.882"
Min expansion: 0.794", 0.702"

http://imageshack.us/a/img39/2324/img1575n.JPG

http://imageshack.us/a/img703/1489/img1578ja.jpg



10mm Double Tap 200 gr Nosler


10mm Double Tap 200 gr Nosler fired from 4.5" bbl EAA Witness through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin.

BB calibration: 582.9", 3.25"

Velocity: 1,076, (Err)
Penetration: 14.8", 15.5"
Retained weight: 193.8 gr, 192.7 gr
Max expansion: 0.704", 0.679"
Min expansion: 0.662", 0.572"

http://imageshack.us/a/img818/600/img1570w.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img201/361/img1571mr.jpg

Andrew Wiggin
06-21-2013, 20:11
Atomic 10mm video


10mm Atomic 180 gr Hex plated fired from 4.5" bbl EAA Witness through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin.

BB calibration: 585.0, 3.1"

Impact velocity: 1,251 fps
Penetration: greater than 17.7"
Retained weight: N/A
Expansion: N/A

Both shots experienced significant fragmentation and deviated, exiting the side of the block.

Andrew Wiggin
08-26-2013, 18:38
Buffalo Bore 180 gr Sierra Power Jacket




10mm Buffalo Bore 180 gr Sierra Power Jacket fired from 4.5" barrel EAA Witness through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin.

BB: 599.2 fps, 2.9"


Impact velocity: 1,311 fps
Penetration: 10.7"
Retained weight: 181.1 gr
Max expansion: 0.853"
Min expansion: 0.560"




Selway 180 gr JHP




10mm Selway 180 gr JHP fired from 4.5" barrel EAA Witness through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin.

BB: 599.2 fps, 2.9"


Impact velocity: 1,105 fps
Penetration: 12.9"
Retained weight: 175.2 gr
Max expansion: 0.678"
Min expansion: 0.600"






10mm 180 gr Winchester generic JHP hand load






10mm Winchester 180 gr generic JHP loaded over 10.0 gr of AA#7 fired from 4.5" barrel EAA Witness through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin.

BB: 599.2 fps, 2.9"

Impact velocity: 1,106 fps
Penetration: greater than 16"
Retained weight: N/A
Max expansion: N/A
Min expansion: N/A

The bullet experienced significant fragmentation and deviated from its path, exiting the block at about the 16" mark. A second shot performed similarly.

Taterhead
08-27-2013, 00:01
Thanks Andrew. The BB load is interesting. I did not know that they finally put a proper bullet back into their 180 gr loading (after loading that Montana Gold target JHP for a few years). Also curious that they used R-P brass instead of Starline for that. Looks like a load worth consideration, I would think.

Andrew Wiggin
08-27-2013, 09:10
Another interesting note is that they didn't remove the bell from the case after seating the bullet. That MT Gold bullet did pretty well for not being a premium bonded defense bullet, I think.

Andrew Wiggin
09-18-2013, 13:32
10mm 200 gr Gold Dot @ 1,065 fps - YouTube



10mm Winchester 175 gr Silvertip - YouTube



10mm Underwood 165 gr Gold Dot - YouTube



10mm Nugent 180 gr Gold Dot - YouTube

_The_Shadow
09-18-2013, 19:49
More great videos! Thanks Andrew! :)

Taterhead
09-18-2013, 21:18
Great videos. You continue to do great work Andrew.

That 165 gr GDHP continues to impress. That is probably the most stout of all of the .40 cal offerings, in my opinion.

Where did you get the 200 gr GHDP?

Andrew Wiggin
09-18-2013, 22:40
A member over at 10mm-firearms.com got them from Ranier, i think. They were pulled.

_The_Shadow
09-19-2013, 07:35
RMR is company that had the 200grain Gold Dots which were pulled from 40S&W ammo made for LE by Federal back in 2009. They were a limited supply and were sold quickly.

http://www.shop.rmrbullets.com/

Andrew Wiggin
09-19-2013, 09:44
Thank you, Shadow. I went ahead and pasted your post into the description on the video.

Andrew Wiggin
10-01-2013, 14:12
http://youtu.be/fhADWIC8Et0

10mm 156 gr Lyman Devastator hand load fired from 4.5" barrel EAA Witness through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin.

BB: 587.3, 3.6"

Impact velocity: 1,450 fps
Penetration: 13.7"
Retained weight: N/A
Expansion: N/A

This bullet definitely lived up to it's name. Like the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch. I just couldn't stop taking pics of this one. The deepest recovered fragment only weighed 22.5 gr and measured 0.616" x 0.307" x 0.110" but that fragment plus all the strained fragments (45.6 gr) only adds up to 68.1 gr, leaving 87.9 gr unaccounted for. If you look closely, you can see the mark where a fragment left the block at around the 13" mark, just before the last fragment that is in the block. I believe this to be the core, which should weigh in the neighborhood of 87 gr. Hopefully I can test again to confirm this.




http://youtu.be/N_2UtNtubng

10mm 195 gr Mihec cast LHP (shallow pin) fired from 4.25" S&W 1076 through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin.

BB: 587.3 fps, 3.6"

Impact velocity: 1,100 fps
Penetration: 26.6"
Retained weight: 192.2 gr

(no expansion)

Andrew Wiggin
10-08-2013, 10:52
http://youtu.be/YCTPtXUQGK0

10mm 200 gr cast softened point fired from 4.5" barrel EAA Witness through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin. The bullet was water dropped and then the point was softened by hitting it with a propane torch while the base of the bullet remained in a water bath. 16-18 BHN. I apologize for the quality of the video. My main camera failed to record and I didn't notice I had the backup set to low quality. Let me know if you like the angle, though because I was thinking about including this angle along with my normal format. At higher quality, of course.

BB: 588.7, 3.1"

Impact velocity: 1,140 fps
Penetration: 28.1"
Retained weight: 203.1 gr
No expansion

Andrew Wiggin
10-30-2013, 11:38
10mm Hornady 175 gr Critical Duty - YouTube

10mm Hornady 175 gr Critical Duty fired from 4.5" EAA Witness through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin.

BB: 580.1 fps, 3.4"


Impact velocity: 1,119 fps
Penetration: 13.1"
Retained weight: 175.0 gr (counting the 2.0 gr rubber tip)
Max expansion: 0.652"
Min expansion: 0.566"


10mm 200 gr Mihec (no denim) - YouTube

10mm 200 gr Mihec fired from 4.5" barrel EAA Witness into calibrated gelatin.

BB: 580.1 fps, 3.4"

Impact velocity: 1,119 fps
Penetration: 23.5"
Retained weight: 193.5 gr

No expansion

Andrew Wiggin
02-23-2014, 10:23
http://youtu.be/JMtg1Q6vP3k




http://youtu.be/UHh_ye9eUC8




http://youtu.be/Wg7D5902c6I

Andrew Wiggin
03-05-2014, 09:50
10mm Double Tap 230 gr Equalizer (two projectile cartridge) - YouTube


10mm Crossfire 125 gr Sinterfire Frangible - YouTube


10mm Crossfire 140 gr Black Max - YouTube

Andrew Wiggin
03-19-2014, 12:40
10mm 195 gr Mihec soft alloy - YouTube

Andrew Wiggin
03-28-2014, 18:29
10mm Federal 180 gr Trophy Bonded JSP - YouTube

Andrew Wiggin
06-21-2014, 17:01
10mm Double Tap 165 gr Golden Saber - YouTube


10mm Double Tap 165 gr Golden Saber fired from 4.5" barrel EAA Witness into calibrated gelatin. I forgot the denim on this test. Sorry. Penetration with denim is typically slightly greater than without. The Golden Saber is not known for having trouble expanding after passing through heavy clothing and the additional velocity of the 10mm further encourages expansion.

BB calibration: 598.5 fps, 3.0"

Impact velocity: 1,298 fps
Penetration: 13.7"
Retained weight: 139.9 gr
Max expansion: 0.783"
Min Expansion: 0.517"

One extra shot over the chronograph measured 1,286 fps.

As reflected in the retained weight, there was substantial fragmentation and although the jacket and core were not detached from each other, the only thing holding them together was the gelatin itself. The jacket pulled away from the core as I removed them from the gelatin. The two fragments seen in the pic were recovered immediately next to the bullet so they were included in the retained weight figure.

I added another shot that I haven't done on previous tests. It shows the split wound track, side by side, with the bullet in place at the end. This exaggerates the appearance of the wound but gives a better view of where the fragments were lost along the track. Let me know what you think so I know whether to include that shot in future videos.



10mm 195 gr Mihec (shallow pin) over 8.0 gr 800X - YouTube

10mm 195 gr Mihec (shallow pin) over 80 gr 800X fired from 4.5" barrel EAA Witness into calibrated gelatin. I omitted the denim because this is intended as a woods load.

BB calibration: 598.5 fps, 3.0"

Impact velocity: 1,166 fps
Penetration: 14.1"
Retained weight: 196.8 gr
Max expansion: 0.698"
Min expansion: 0.657"

Additional velocity numbers are:

1,141 fps
1,119 fps
1,148 fps

Andrew Wiggin
08-21-2014, 10:30
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjPyyNWw9lg

10mm 135 gr Myhec 10:1 lead/tin alloy over 12.5 gr SR 4756 fired from 4.25" barrel S&W 1076 through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin.

BB: 594.1 fps, 3.4"

Gelatin results:

Impact velocity: 1,548 fps
Penetration: 7.1"
Retained weight: 73.0 gr
Min Expansion: 0.651"
Max expansion: 0.708"

We fired a few rounds over a chronograph with the same powder and alloy but different charge weights and these are the velocities we got:

11.0 gr 1,512 fps
11,5 gr 1,484 fps
12.0 gr 1,568 fps
12.5 gr 1,610 fps

Andrew Wiggin
08-25-2014, 10:13
10mm Hornady Custom 180 gr XTP - YouTube

_The_Shadow
08-25-2014, 15:54
This is a short tribute to Andrew Wiggin

I got a block of the Clear Ballistics gel...

http://clearballistics.com/wp-content/uploads/AirGun-block.jpg

But I can't seem to find it! :o


I wouldn't say it was HOT here in Louisiana, but the gelatin block evaporated before I could get a shot off! ???

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSaK0w9TQaybo5m2fcWrxzFCuPpA9uMnoSLvj00IpU34NOR9kPF

Last but not least, I was gel testing the Lyman cast Devastators Hollow Points....Boom!

https://img.youtube.com/vi/C7pAXj89hok/0.jpg

This was put together as a tribute to Andrew Wiggin's gelatin block testing, all the time and hard work involved in doing these test, that we all enjoy viewing and studying. It is a monumental task to prepare the gelatin, load up the equipment and drive out into the desert and set up the table, gel blocks, cameras, CHRONY and everything else, just to make a few shots.

Thanks Andrew Wiggin 8)

Andrew Wiggin
08-25-2014, 15:59
Lol. Thank you, sir.