Birdshot OK for badguys?! What the heck? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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OctoberRust
10-02-2012, 17:47
I do not endorse the opinion in this video. I'm just curious on everyone else's thoughts.....

Me personally, I use 00 buck in my mossberg 500 for HD. The smallest I'd go is number 4 buckshot for defending myself in my house from 2 legged critters.

anyways, gunblast usually seems down to earth, am I missing something here?


Shotgun Ammo for Home Defense - Gunblast.com - YouTube

Angry Fist
10-02-2012, 17:48
There was a thread about this awhile back. The only way I support it is with:


The lost art of "Cut Shells" - YouTube

dkf
10-02-2012, 18:13
The only way I support it is with:

Or wax slugs. Birdshot is still better than nothing though, just aim for the head.

OctoberRust
10-02-2012, 18:29
There was a thread about this awhile back. The only way I support it is with:


The lost art of "Cut Shells" - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3M46XVfVOU)


Saw that before. interesting stuff, I think I'll stick with the 00 buck myself. If I want to reach 25-70 yards I'll just use a 1 oz slug with highbrass.

isp2605
10-02-2012, 18:33
The first shooting I went to on the job involved 1 guy shooting another using a 20 ga single shot with #6 low brass. Distance was about 15 ft. Check the distances in your home as far as room sizes. The guy was hit just below the ribs in the xyphoid. Cut a jagged hole about the size of a golf ball. Wad was inside him. Found shot next to the spine. DRT. Since then been to several hunting accidents involving bird shot. It kills dead and quick at close range, distances the inside of most homes.

glock_19guy1983
10-02-2012, 18:53
Saw that before. interesting stuff, I think I'll stick with the 00 buck myself. If I want to reach 25-70 yards I'll just use a 1 oz slug with highbrass.

Also, just imagine how bad that could jam up the works on a pump or auto if it broke in half while cycling.

OctoberRust
10-02-2012, 19:04
The first shooting I went to on the job involved 1 guy shooting another using a 20 ga single shot with #6 low brass. Distance was about 15 ft. Check the distances in your home as far as room sizes. The guy was hit just below the ribs in the xyphoid. Cut a jagged hole about the size of a golf ball. Wad was inside him. Found shot next to the spine. DRT. Since then been to several hunting accidents involving bird shot. It kills dead and quick at close range, distances the inside of most homes.

Understandable if you were defending yourself and had a full frontal shot of your attacker/home invader. What about if all you have is a side shot? What if he's taking cover behind your couch and about to throw rounds down range toward you? Then all of a sudden it seems the camp of "limited penetration for liability issues" becomes moot, since the bad guy may be using something that goes through multiple walls, etc.


Also, just imagine how bad that could jam up the works on a pump or auto if it broke in half while cycling.

Absolutely. I want tried and true if my life depends on it.

Angry Fist
10-02-2012, 19:33
Absolutely. I want tried and true if my life depends on it.F'rill. I won't even try it until I get a single shot or pump gun. Guess it's one of those "in a pinch" things. Just be careful on how you cut them.

skew12
10-02-2012, 19:33
#4 is the "lightest" I've ever seen recommended.

AlexHassin
10-02-2012, 19:41
Bird shot can mess you up. if its what you got you mine as well.

what i am curious about is that now a days we have heavier then lead shot that gets used a lot for turkeys and waterfowl. any reason we don't see them begin talked about for defensive shotgun ammo?

Angry Fist
10-02-2012, 19:44
http://recoilmag.com/news/grfx/cheney_shotgun_1008.jpg

Providence
10-02-2012, 19:47
I don't want to get shot with birdshot, but that said, I use 00 low recoil buck. I use #4 buck in the 20 ga.

isp2605
10-02-2012, 19:54
Understandable if you were defending yourself and had a full frontal shot of your attacker/home invader. What about if all you have is a side shot? What if he's taking cover behind your couch and about to throw rounds down range toward you? Then all of a sudden it seems the camp of "limited penetration for liability issues" becomes moot, since the bad guy may be using something that goes through multiple walls, etc.

Using your scenario of "what ifs", what if the BG was hiding behind the refrigerator, what if there was a cinder block wall, what if, what if, what if. The world is full of 'what ifs'. I can tell one thing from having BTDT-wore out the t-shirt. No matter what gun you have when it hits the fan you quickly realize 1) yours isn't big enough, 2) you are sure you don't have enough ammo, and 3) the bad guy's gun seems a lot bigger than yours.
My point was don't underestimate bird shot. It will kill you just as dead as a slug and you won't be able to tell the difference. It's not a load I would recommend but I've read too many internet commandos on here and other forums that don't have a clue just how quickly dead bird shot will kill someone.

dcc12
10-02-2012, 21:14
The first shooting I went to on the job involved 1 guy shooting another using a 20 ga single shot with #6 low brass. Distance was about 15 ft. Check the distances in your home as far as room sizes. The guy was hit just below the ribs in the xyphoid. Cut a jagged hole about the size of a golf ball. Wad was inside him. Found shot next to the spine. DRT. Since then been to several hunting accidents involving bird shot. It kills dead and quick at close range, distances the inside of most homes.

Agreed my experience in EMS and Trauma Centers tells me that from room distances birdshot will make a nice rathole wound. Even in the coldest of weather with thick clothing.

Marred
10-02-2012, 21:49
Next time some guy breaks into my house dressed like a bird I'll be sure and use some bird shot.

noway
10-02-2012, 22:46
Next time some guy breaks into my house dressed like a bird I'll be sure and use some bird shot.

so true :rofl:

Anybody endorsing birdshot for a self-defense load, well no comments.

For every person or story about who died from birdshot and the what-if game. I rather use what's known to work.

here's one story of a survivor

http://www.postbulletin.com/news/stories/display.php?id=1510186


here's a story of one who didn't

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/story/2012/10/01/ottawa-man-dead-hunting-accident-shot.html


One was shot in the head by his own SG at muzzle contact or just about.

See the diference?

Now what you really depend on a Shotgun for self-defense?

But who knows, what-if a swarm of birds suddenly attack, than I guess you will be pretty well armed with a shotgun loaded with birdshot :rofl:

cowboy1964
10-02-2012, 23:17
12 Gauge Birdshot For Home Defense??? - YouTube

Marred
10-02-2012, 23:59
SHOTGUN 00 BUCKSHOT Ballistic Gel Test - YouTube

Check out when the block is hit with buckshot at 2:04. Penetration was acceptable by FBI protocol standards 12 inches plus. Birdshot, not so much. No contest.

Check this out. http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

OctoberRust
10-03-2012, 07:04
Using your scenario of "what ifs", what if the BG was hiding behind the refrigerator, what if there was a cinder block wall, what if, what if, what if. The world is full of 'what ifs'. I can tell one thing from having BTDT-wore out the t-shirt. No matter what gun you have when it hits the fan you quickly realize 1) yours isn't big enough, 2) you are sure you don't have enough ammo, and 3) the bad guy's gun seems a lot bigger than yours.
My point was don't underestimate bird shot. It will kill you just as dead as a slug and you won't be able to tell the difference. It's not a load I would recommend but I've read too many internet commandos on here and other forums that don't have a clue just how quickly dead bird shot will kill someone.

Last I checked, unless you spend a few minutes lugging my beast of a fridge out from inside the wall, no one will be hiding behind it. Maybe in it, but then they got bigger problems :supergrin:

My house doesn't have any cinder block walls, so that's fine.

That's fine, I understand birdshot MAY stop a fight in a timely fashion. But if you have the chance to prepare before hand, why not use something a bit more efficient? like #4 or 00? Better to over penetrate slightly, than to under penetrate slightly and not hit any vitals, keeping the BG going.

Sorry if I came off as "birdshot is useless". It's not, but there is better options out there, and that I don't think is disputable....

SCmasterblaster
10-03-2012, 07:04
Gunblast doing a video showing how effective 12ga birdshot is.

triggerjerk
10-03-2012, 07:08
Why would anyone take a risk on its effectiveness when cheap buckshot can be had at almost any walmart?

SCmasterblaster
10-03-2012, 07:10
Why would anyone take a risk on it's effectiveness when cheap buckshot can be had at almost any walmart?

OO buckshot for me! :supergrin:

unit1069
10-03-2012, 08:19
Knowing you rely on firearms to save your life should a life-or-death situation ever occur would you load your G-19 with a weak FMJ low-velocity round or the round you had the most confidence would end the attack most efficiently?

I don't know why anyone would download his/her shotgun with a less effective round than is currently available.

I have both #1 and #4 buckshot and wouldn't use anything less than #4 for self-defense.

Zombie Steve
10-03-2012, 08:32
#6 or even 7-1/2 bird shot is just perfect for 3-4 pound pheasants. Hit 'em in the back flying away at about 20 yards and it will knock them down, but won't tear up the breast meat. About half the time you still have to break their neck.

I have had a pheasant fly straight at me, and at about 7 -10 yards, it pretty much fell apart in midair.

Excellent on 3-4 pound birds.

:thumbsup:



For 200 pound bad guys? Better than nothing, but very limited range. Just not betting my life on it.

For what the guy in the gunblast vid is talking about... bad guy in the hallway and a concern of overpenetration... I can see his point, but again, it's not for me.

SCmasterblaster
10-03-2012, 10:49
Now when I consider it, I think that the pheasant is about as big as a humans chest. :upeyes:

FFR Spyder GT
10-03-2012, 14:19
Being from Arkansas I've killed several whitetail deer with squirrel shot when I was a kid.

For HD I would pass on the low brass birdshot but if you are concerned about overpenetration of BS in your house, trailer, apartment, condo, etc and high brass #6,5 or 4 shot will do the trick at short distances, like the ones you will deal with inside your home.

At 20' a high brass squirrel shot is still a solid mass even out of a cylinder bore and will punch through stuff just like BS but will break up while going through a standard sheetrocked 2x4 wall.

I have a Win 1300 Defender for HD and even though the tube holds 7- 2 3/4" shells I only load it with 5 plus one in the chamber. I also have a 5rd shell holder on the buttstock that's loaded with 3 "OOO" and two 3" 1 1/4oz slugs.

For the "what if" guy....... Load you shotgun with 1 round of squirrel shot in the chamber and 5 rds of SS in the tube and 3 rounds of BS and 2 slugs in the shell holder. Or place a SS in the chamber, 2 BS in the tube, then 3 SS and BS and slugs in the shell holder.

Since I live with just myself, the Wife, a dog and a cat I'm not too worried about shooting someone at the other end of the house and my nearest neighbor is 300yds away I use BS.

When I lived in a condo with my daughter I used the SS/BS combo that I posted.

If you blast a BG at 15' with a 2 3/4" high brass #4 squirrel shot load in his COM he will be dead by the time you can walk over to his corpse.

Spyder

M 7
10-03-2012, 15:11
I'd stick with nothing smaller than #1 buckshot. Smaller shot sizes are more easily deflected by ribs.

concretefuzzynuts
10-03-2012, 15:23
Also, just imagine how bad that could jam up the works on a pump or auto if it broke in half while cycling.

Cut shells are meant for single shot or a double barrel.

They are old school slugs, basically. No need to do it with todays slug shells.

I vote for the 00 buck myself.

Warp
10-03-2012, 15:48
Birdshot is for birds. Not defense against violent criminals.

My shotgun is currently loaded with Federal's LE132-1B, that's a 15 pellet #1 Buck with flight control wad. If I were to load it with any other shot, it would be one of my wide selection of 00.

When I lived in an apartment I loaded it with 2 3/4" magnum #4 buck, which was 34 pellets of #4. Smallest I would ever go.

concretefuzzynuts
10-03-2012, 16:22
I've seen mug shots and other pictures of bad guys. Some were pretty big/fat. Ad drugs in their system and I want as much as I can get.

00 buck. 9 - 33 cal pellets 7 times if need be.

A cop friend of mine said not to mix shells, for example -none of that 1- #4 buck, 3- 00 buck and the rest slugs. They load all 00 buck, so should I.

countrygun
10-03-2012, 16:48
It just goes to show how ignorant both the military and Law Enforcement agencies are. They keep using buckshot after all these years. I can't even figure out why buckshot was even invented. The answer was always birdshot.

:whistling::upeyes:

Warp
10-03-2012, 16:49
It just goes to show how ignorant both the military and Law Enforcement agencies are. They keep using buckshot after all these years. I can't even figure out why buckshot was even invented. The answer was always birdshot.

:whistling::upeyes:

Yes, we should always use what the military uses, without questioning why.

That's why we only ever carry FMJ in our pistols, because the military does what is best.

countrygun
10-03-2012, 16:57
Yes, we should always use what the military uses, without questioning why.

That's why we only ever carry FMJ in our pistols, because the military does what is best.

Well, when they invent hollow point buckshot it might become the same kind of issue for the military as FMJ but in the meantime Law Enforcement agencies are not so constricted and they still seem to prefer buckshot.

fredj338
10-03-2012, 17:27
Birshot is for birds. You may get suitable results using a full choke & large birdshot @ close range but open choke riot guns, nope. With a spread of 1" per yard, that is a 5-6" pattern on a guys chest @ 20ft. If he is wearing a heavy leather coat, he is not suffering much from shot #6 or smaller.
I have tested this on a beef ribcage @ 20ft. The #6 shot did NOT penetrate thru the back side of the ribcage covered w/ 2 layers of denim. So serious SD/HD use starts w/ #4 buckshot & larger. Anything else is a risk you can take, but not me. If it's bad enough fo rme to be going to a SG, it's bad enough that the fight needs to stop right now. The ribcage on the left was hit W/ #4 buck, open choke 870. The right was #6 shot.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/ribs-1.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/ribtest.jpg

Warp
10-03-2012, 18:18
Well, when they invent hollow point buckshot it might become the same kind of issue for the military as FMJ but in the meantime Law Enforcement agencies are not so constricted and they still seem to prefer buckshot.

That they do.

isp2605
10-03-2012, 20:23
Sorry if I came off as "birdshot is useless". It's not, but there is better options out there, and that I don't think is disputable....
I haven't read anyone here yet advocating using birdshot over other loads. However, sometimes you have to dance with the girl you bring. In a perfect world you can load this or that and carry a particular firearm. However, I know from experience that this isn't a perfect world and when it hits the fan you have to use what you have at that time. The point of this entire thread is that birdshot will definitely do more damage than some of the uninformed actually realize. Until you have seen the damage then don't discount it doing the job in certain circumstances. That birdshot load may be the only fat girl left at the dance. You may prefer the long haired blonde but she may not be there when the music starts.

Warp
10-03-2012, 20:28
Of course if the option is birdshot or an unloaded gun I'm taking the birdshot. That goes without saying.

Spinoff: What if the S were to HTF and you had a shotgun with birdshot...let's say a #6 target load...vs your most carried Glock loaded with a quality JHP. Which would you rather have in your hands when the zombies come through the door?

Austinite
10-03-2012, 23:08
That birdshot load may be the only fat girl left at the dance. You may prefer the long haired blonde but she may not be there when the music starts. \

This is fantastic. :supergrin:

Berto
10-04-2012, 00:45
For my needs, Fed low Recoil 00.

SCmasterblaster
10-04-2012, 10:22
Being from Arkansas I've killed several whitetail deer with squirrel shot when I was a kid.

For HD I would pass on the low brass birdshot but if you are concerned about overpenetration of BS in your house, trailer, apartment, condo, etc and high brass #6,5 or 4 shot will do the trick at short distances, like the ones you will deal with inside your home.

At 20' a high brass squirrel shot is still a solid mass even out of a cylinder bore and will punch through stuff just like BS but will break up while going through a standard sheetrocked 2x4 wall.

I have a Win 1300 Defender for HD and even though the tube holds 7- 2 3/4" shells I only load it with 5 plus one in the chamber. I also have a 5rd shell holder on the buttstock that's loaded with 3 "OOO" and two 3" 1 1/4oz slugs.

For the "what if" guy....... Load you shotgun with 1 round of squirrel shot in the chamber and 5 rds of SS in the tube and 3 rounds of BS and 2 slugs in the shell holder. Or place a SS in the chamber, 2 BS in the tube, then 3 SS and BS and slugs in the shell holder.

Since I live with just myself, the Wife, a dog and a cat I'm not too worried about shooting someone at the other end of the house and my nearest neighbor is 300yds away I use BS.

When I lived in a condo with my daughter I used the SS/BS combo that I posted.

If you blast a BG at 15' with a 2 3/4" high brass #4 squirrel shot load in his COM he will be dead by the time you can walk over to his corpse.

Spyder

Thank you for your testimony. :cool:

M 7
10-04-2012, 22:29
That birdshot load may be the only fat girl left at the dance. You may prefer the long haired blonde but she may not be there when the music starts.

This is fantastic. :supergrin:

Yes, priceless. :)

Brucev
10-05-2012, 07:47
Re: OP. Such post make for good youtube entertainment. Addressing HD/SD, such post are a waste of time. I've shot a lot of stuff with standard 12 ga. hunting loads. At across the room distances... it is very effective on targets animate and inanimate. Not concerned about if they are hiding behind a wall, refrigerator, etc. Anyone can concoct some sort of scenario where a particular firearm/caliber/gauge will not be effective.

RichardB
10-05-2012, 08:53
Am I the only one that seems to dimly remember during the urban riots of the 1960s birdshot fired at the good guys not penetrating LEOs leather jackets? Or is it a myth?

PEC-Memphis
10-05-2012, 09:12
Agreed my experience in EMS and Trauma Centers tells me that from room distances birdshot will make a nice rathole wound. Even in the coldest of weather with thick clothing.

But does it work better than 0, 00, or #4 at close ranges?

I don't think that there is a whole lot of argument that these other loads work better than #7-1/2 or #8 under other conditions.

So bird shot may work well under certain conditions, but other loads work better under a wider variety of conditions.

Of course all bets are off for .410 birdshot in a handgun where there is wide dispersion, and little penetration, even at room distances.

SCmasterblaster
10-05-2012, 10:33
I use the 12ga slug and OO buckshot combo. I like the idea of a slug accompanied by three OO pellets.

OctoberRust
10-05-2012, 14:44
I haven't read anyone here yet advocating using birdshot over other loads. However, sometimes you have to dance with the girl you bring. In a perfect world you can load this or that and carry a particular firearm. However, I know from experience that this isn't a perfect world and when it hits the fan you have to use what you have at that time. The point of this entire thread is that birdshot will definitely do more damage than some of the uninformed actually realize. Until you have seen the damage then don't discount it doing the job in certain circumstances. That birdshot load may be the only fat girl left at the dance. You may prefer the long haired blonde but she may not be there when the music starts.


Well since you put the analogy like that. I get what I want, so no worries in the first place.

BUT, if that fat girl were the only one left, I'd leave it, and go for the chubby cute girl down the block, IE my glock 19. I'll take that over Birdshot, still.

Angry Fist
10-05-2012, 16:11
I use the 12ga slug and OO buckshot combo. I like the idea of a slug accompanied by three OO pellets.
I think that's the Pit Bull.

Warp
10-05-2012, 16:23
I think that's the Pit Bull.

Never heard of a Pit Bull round. I'm sure some random company decided that marketing sells, picked up the well known buck and ball, or whatever you want to call it, and ran with it

Angry Fist
10-05-2012, 17:06
1.3 oz slug + 6 OO buckshot.

http://www.firequest.com/media/products/G12-025.jpg

Warp
10-05-2012, 17:37
I'll stick to ammunition from a major, reputable, trusted manufacturer for life or death use.

Angry Fist
10-05-2012, 17:41
Absolutely. I need to get some Low Recoil.

countrygun
10-05-2012, 18:10
I use the 12ga slug and OO buckshot combo. I like the idea of a slug accompanied by three OO pellets.

The Winchester version prints nicely and reliably from the Mossberg.

noway
10-06-2012, 09:36
Originally Posted by FFR Spyder GT View Post
Being from Arkansas I've killed several whitetail deer with squirrel shot when I was a kid.



Why does the above not surprise me & somebody from Arkansas :rofl:

No do not try to shoot a deer with squirrel shot ( I guess he really meant birdshot, since their's no such load that I'm aware of that called squirrel shot, their's smallgame loads , duck, turkey, & buckshot )

The only why I see killing a mature deer with birdshot would be if it was the TEOTWAWKI and I was down to only a birdshot load as my only choice.

SCmasterblaster
10-06-2012, 11:55
that the tissue damage from the several hundred birdshot pellets would be massive. I may have to rethink my slug/buckshot Mossberg 500 loading. :upeyes:

Warp
10-06-2012, 15:10
that the tissue damage from the several hundred birdshot pellets would be massive. I may have to rethink my slug/buckshot Mossberg 500 loading. :upeyes:

You need adequate penetration for it to matter. Birdshot isn't likely to give you that. :upeyes:

Providence
10-06-2012, 18:33
I keep my SG loaded with low recoil buck. If I am faced with a situation where someone is in my house and I am in fear for my life or the lives of my family, I want to make sure I neutralize the threat. It's the age old "stopping power" argument.


Please vote! It's that important!

Angry Fist
10-06-2012, 21:55
that the tissue damage from the several hundred birdshot pellets would be massive. I may have to rethink my slug/buckshot Mossberg 500 loading. :upeyes:
Only if it's point-blank, and in the throat.

dcc12
10-07-2012, 14:04
But does it work better than 0, 00, or #4 at close ranges?

I don't think that there is a whole lot of argument that these other loads work better than #7-1/2 or #8 under other conditions.

So bird shot may work well under certain conditions, but other loads work better under a wider variety of conditions.

Of course all bets are off for .410 birdshot in a handgun where there is wide dispersion, and little penetration, even at room distances.

I'm not saying that one should use birdshot over buck or vice versa. What I am saying is I have seen several people who were shot by accident with birdshot form >20ft who were hurt very bad. Of the 3 I have seen who were shot from <15ft in a defense situation with birdshot all three died in the trauma bay. Just saying

Warp
10-07-2012, 14:24
I'm not saying that one should use birdshot over buck or vice versa. What I am saying is I have seen several people who were shot by accident with birdshot form >20ft who were hurt very bad. Of the 3 I have seen who were shot from <15ft in a defense situation with birdshot all three died in the trauma bay. Just saying

Death doesn't mean the round was properly effective, believe it or not.

pokersamurai
10-07-2012, 15:40
Based on my (limited) personal experience I don't even consider birdshot an option for self defense.

Once when I was in college some friends and I were out hunting in the woods when one of my friends (who was not following the 4 rules of gun safety and who is kind of an idiot) accidentally shot one of my other friends with his shotgun, which was loaded with birdshot. My friend who was shot was about 40ft away and it was in late-fall so he was wearing a heavy coat and multiple layers of clothing. He said the birdshot hurt like a SOB and knocked the wind out of him, however, only about a dozen pellets broke the skin and none penetrated even remotely deep enough to be life threatening (he did have a massive bruise afterwards) and he made a full recovery in just a few weeks.

After seeing how little the birdshot effected my friend when he was shot (my friend was completely coherent and physically active afterwards), birdshot is about the last load I would want to use to try and stop a determined attacker who may be high on drugs and feel even less of an effect.

PEC-Memphis
10-08-2012, 08:56
I'm not saying that one should use birdshot over buck or vice versa. What I am saying is I have seen several people who were shot by accident with birdshot form >20ft who were hurt very bad. Of the 3 I have seen who were shot from <15ft in a defense situation with birdshot all three died in the trauma bay. Just saying

During college I worked at a doc's office (pulmonary). I did a chest x-ray of a fairly large guy (probably 6'-4"; 280#) who was getting a Tn-DVR exam (disability). I developed the CXR (back then we used tanks to develop the film), between developer and fixer, I'd usually make a quick check of the film with a darkroom light. I thought a film had been splattered with fixer. After fully processing the film, and looking at it on the light-box, it was apparent that he had been shot (twice) with birdshot - the lateral films showed that one set of shot was in the front and the other was in the back - both with little penetration.

I asked that pt about it - he said it was from a shotgun - from two separate incidents. :wow:

I asked why the ER didn't remove the shot, he said something to the effect of - he didn't go to the ER (either time) because it wasn't "in his best interest at the time".:whistling:

RichardB
10-08-2012, 09:31
Shotgun World has had extensive similar discussions.

For Jello lovers only.

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=109958

I'm sure that Mr Google will find many more like discussions with penetration numbers and more photos of jello, hog and beef flesh and bones, and maybe people.

Kingarthurhk
10-08-2012, 10:35
I use only 12 guage 00 buck, though I have some slugs as well, though that is going to have some penentration issues. My thought is if you can't hit with 00 buck there are some serious issues. Birdshot is for birds for a reason. You are more likely to make an agressive person even angrier with birdshot.

Glock19Fan
10-08-2012, 20:51
With the military being very specific about what type of projectiles they use, I think their choice of buckshot speaks volumes about what is the best for defense.

With that said, the only shotgun I have is a NEF single shot 20 gauge with #3 buckshot. Energy wise its very similar to 12 guage 00 buckshot loads, but with more (smaller) pellets. I have a stock sleeve with 2 more of the same load, and 3 slugs.

The shotgun is not my primary defensive weapon though.

SCmasterblaster
10-09-2012, 08:16
Oh, heck with it. I'll stick to my 12ga Slug & 3 OO buckshot pellet loads.

valvestem
10-09-2012, 08:23
Why not just use rock salt and shoot the BG in the butt? LOL

SCmasterblaster
10-09-2012, 08:34
Why not just use rock salt and shoot the BG in the butt? LOL

The jury wouldn't view it to kindly. :shocked:

ROGER4314
10-09-2012, 08:47
I started reloading with shotgun shells in the 1960's and had access to trash dumps in Kansas where I shot several times per week. I've shot about every product, material and item on the planet with 12 gauge rounds and know what they'll do.

I have supreme confidence in 00 Buck loads and have loaded and fired cases of them. Birdshot, while absolutely fatal at very close range loses effectiveness so rapidly with distance, that it's a mistake to consider it for SD use. I've been shot several times with birdshot at 60-70 yards, it failed to penetrate my winter clothing and just plain made me mad!

I use 00 buck and slugs. That's the end of the tale for me.

Flash

SCmasterblaster
10-09-2012, 10:21
I started reloading with shotgun shells in the 1960's and had access to trash dumps in Kansas where I shot several times per week. I've shot about every product, material and item on the planet with 12 gauge rounds and know what they'll do.

I have supreme confidence in 00 Buck loads and have loaded and fired cases of them. Birdshot, while absolutely fatal at very close range loses effectiveness so rapidly with distance, that it's a mistake to consider it for SD use. I've been shot several times with birdshot at 60-70 yards, it failed to penetrate my winter clothing and just plain made me mad!

I use 00 buck and slugs. That's the end of the tale for me.

Flash

Same here, I use a combo load - slug and 3 OO buck pellets.

fredj338
10-09-2012, 12:06
I'm not saying that one should use birdshot over buck or vice versa. What I am saying is I have seen several people who were shot by accident with birdshot form >20ft who were hurt very bad. Of the 3 I have seen who were shot from <15ft in a defense situation with birdshot all three died in the trauma bay. Just saying

More than likely that was w/ some choke, it matters. Avg shot spread for riot chokes, 1"/yard or 6"-7" @ 20ft. Unless the shot is heavy & the hit on an unobsturcted area, like the throat/face, it's not likely to hit anything vital. A denim jacket would slow the shot enough, add a layer of muscle/fat, the BG is just gonna be pissed off. Geeze, I have had wet pheasent not drop from a solid hit w/ #6 @ 60ft from a mod choke. Doesn' give me confidence in birdhsot of any flavor for serious SD.

scccdoc
10-09-2012, 12:11
Are birds breaking into your house? DOC

SCmasterblaster
10-09-2012, 18:12
Are birds breaking into your house? DOC

heh heh heh heh! :supergrin:

weagle
10-10-2012, 12:36
Bird Shot at home defense distances is a game stopper. No handgun would even come close with the exception of a CNS hit.

Based on my experience dispatching various animals at close range there was no reason to believe that bird shot would not have a similar effect on humans. That theory was supported by a buddy of mine who is the chief radiologist at the largest level 1 trauma center in the southeast US. The number of gunshot injuries they see each year is unreal. In over 30 years he has never seen a single individual that has survived a shotgun blast to the torso at room distances. I asked him if it matter what type of load was used and he said no. He said at room distances the shot acted as a single frangible projectile and the trauma and blood loss was "not survivable"

On the other hand, they patch folks up regularly with multiple shots to the torso from all flavors of handgun rounds. Some of these have been on the receiving end of local law enforcement shooting .40 and .45 ACP glocks fed with Remington bonded Golden sabers, Winchester Ranger T, Speer gold dots etc.

I keep #4 turkey loads in mine, but I have no reason to doubt the opinion of my friend especially since it mirrors what most of the EMT, trauma center type folks have related in this thread.

fredj338
10-10-2012, 13:24
Bird Shot at home defense distances is a game stopper. No handgun would even come close with the exception of a CNS hit.

Based on my experience dispatching various animals at close range there was no reason to believe that bird shot would not have a similar effect on humans. That theory was supported by a buddy of mine who is the chief radiologist at the largest level 1 trauma center in the southeast US. The number of gunshot injuries they see each year is unreal. In over 30 years he has never seen a single individual that has survived a shotgun blast to the torso at room distances. I asked him if it matter what type of load was used and he said no. He said at room distances the shot acted as a single frangible projectile and the trauma and blood loss was "not survivable"

On the other hand, they patch folks up regularly with multiple shots to the torso from all flavors of handgun rounds. Some of these have been on the receiving end of local law enforcement shooting .40 and .45 ACP glocks fed with Remington bonded Golden sabers, Winchester Ranger T, Speer gold dots etc.

I keep #4 turkey loads in mine, but I have no reason to doubt the opinion of my friend especially since it mirrors what most of the EMT, trauma center type folks have related in this thread.
You honestly can't say that w/o discussing choke, it matters. Open riot choke @ 21ft, if the guy is wearing heavy clothing & big enough, it is NOT a game stopper, not by a lot. Anyone that hunts bigger birds knows this. If you are going to load #4 birdshot why not #4 buck? It's certainly going to get thru any clothing worn & even from a riot choke, those heavier pellets will certainly pentrate heavy muscle & bone. The only reason to choose birdshot is becasue it's all you have.:dunno:

scccdoc
10-10-2012, 13:49
Bird Shot at home defense distances is a game stopper. No handgun would even come close with the exception of a CNS hit.

Based on my experience dispatching various animals at close range there was no reason to believe that bird shot would not have a similar effect on humans. That theory was supported by a buddy of mine who is the chief radiologist at the largest level 1 trauma center in the southeast US. The number of gunshot injuries they see each year is unreal. In over 30 years he has never seen a single individual that has survived a shotgun blast to the torso at room distances. I asked him if it matter what type of load was used and he said no. He said at room distances the shot acted as a single frangible projectile and the trauma and blood loss was "not survivable"

On the other hand, they patch folks up regularly with multiple shots to the torso from all flavors of handgun rounds. Some of these have been on the receiving end of local law enforcement shooting .40 and .45 ACP glocks fed with Remington bonded Golden sabers, Winchester Ranger T, Speer gold dots etc.

I keep #4 turkey loads in mine, but I have no reason to doubt the opinion of my friend especially since it mirrors what most of the EMT, trauma center type folks have related in this thread.

You make very sounds points if your ER friend is telling the truth and I believe he is. That is why my first line of defense is a shotgun(18" pump). However if I have to defend myself with a handgun, do I use a .22 or a.40? The .40 of course, imho. Therefore , if I am going to "eliminate a threat", do I use large shot or small shot in a shotgun? Large shot, no question. Many out here may confuse what bird shot is. There is a "skeet" load(low powder), "game" load(medium powder), and what we use to call "high brass"( for duck and pheasant) or heavy powder. If you use bird shot, get the "high brass"(excuse my ancient terminology, I only reload pistol cartridges).My SD cartridges are factory high grain rds, I would not prefer to shoot my low grain reloads for "eliminating a threat". I keep my pistol as close as my pump in my bedroom.

Shotguns are more accurate for most people and studies I've read, say it is the best "one shot stop". I use 00 buck, if it will bring down a 160 lb deer, I trust it for my needs. I've never seen a seasoned deer hunter deliberately load with "bird shot" to kill a deer. Debate this all you want, but for a little more money per round, WHY USE BIRD SHOT?

weagle
10-10-2012, 13:59
You honestly can't say that w/o discussing choke, it matters. Open riot choke @ 21ft, if the guy is wearing heavy clothing & big enough, it is NOT a game stopper, not by a lot. Anyone that hunts bigger birds knows this. If you are going to load #4 birdshot why not #4 buck? It's certainly going to get thru any clothing worn & even from a riot choke, those heavier pellets will certainly pentrate heavy muscle & bone. The only reason to choose birdshot is becasue it's all you have.:dunno:

Choke means nothing at 7 yds. I load turkey loads because they are higher quality shells (high brass, more reliable feeding/ extraction) than most target loads. Buck shot will penetrate walls/ floors etc more effectively than bird shot. A real issue in my house. Once bird shot loads have passed through sheet rock, doors, floors etc they may still be dangerous, but much less lethal than buckshot.

At 21 feet a skeet load will render a canadian goose into mangled sack of goo, so I have no idea what you are talking about with regard to larger birds.

weagle
10-10-2012, 14:11
Debate this all you want, but for a little more money per round, WHY USE BIRD SHOT?

In my case it's because my house is 3 floors and many scenarios could have me shooting up and down stairwell/floors as well as out through many windows toward very nearby homes.

At 7 yds bird shot is very deadly on humans. At 40 yds or after passing through a solid barrier, much less so.

I have plenty of buckshot at home, so cost does not come into play. If there was a civil unrest scenario and I was having to defend against attackers from outside my home you can bet I'd switch to a rifle, or slugs and or buckshot as the situation dictated.

scccdoc
10-10-2012, 14:32
Choke means nothing at 7 yds. I load turkey loads because they are higher quality shells (high brass, more reliable feeding/ extraction) than most target loads. Buck shot will penetrate walls/ floors etc more effectively than bird shot. A real issue in my house. Once bird shot loads have passed through sheet rock, doors, floors etc they may still be dangerous, but much less lethal than buckshot.

At 21 feet a skeet load will render a canadian goose into mangled sack of goo, so I have no idea what you are talking about with regard to larger birds.

To each his own. But I will shoot through sheet rock if he does not respond to my invitation to give me a clear shot................ :)

scccdoc
10-10-2012, 14:37
In my case it's because my house is 3 floors and many scenarios could have me shooting up and down stairwell/floors as well as out through many windows toward very nearby homes.

At 7 yds bird shot is very deadly on humans. At 40 yds or after passing through a solid barrier, much less so.

I have plenty of buckshot at home, so cost does not come into play. If there was a civil unrest scenario and I was having to defend against attackers from outside my home you can bet I'd switch to a rifle, or slugs and or buckshot as the situation dictated.

As I said above,"to each his own". That post was written about 25 minutes ago but got hung up here before I could proof read and submit. Hope neither of us ever have to test out our theories.......... DOC

pokersamurai
10-10-2012, 14:43
IMO anything birdshot can do, buckshot can do better.

Also, to me the whole over-penetration thing seems to be blown way out of proportion. First of all, if you just hit what you're aiming at then over-penetration does not matter. A miss with birdshot is going to be way more dangerous than #1 buckshot (my preferred HD load) that hits the bad guy. Even if #1 buck does penetrate all the way through the BG and through a sheet rock wall it's going to have lost so much energy that its going to be no more dangerous than birdshot that misses.

The way I look at it, a person shot with birdshot MAY CHOOSE to stop after getting hit. However, a person shot with buckshot will usually have no choice in the matter.

weagle
10-10-2012, 14:57
[QUOTE=pokersamurai;19504354
The way I look at it, a person shot with birdshot MAY CHOOSE to stop after getting hit. [/QUOTE]

30 years of experience in a level 1 trauma center points out that is just not the case.

Don't misunderstand me. I'm not arguing against the effectiveness of buckshot, it is devastating But for my house, my "things go bump in the night", home invasion scenario shotgun, the turkey loads are my first choice. I have zero reservations about their effectiveness at the ranges I would be using them.

pokersamurai
10-10-2012, 15:15
30 years of experience in a level 1 trauma center points out that is just not the case.

Don't misunderstand me. I'm not arguing against the effectiveness of buckshot, it is devastating But for my house, my "things go bump in the night", home invasion scenario shotgun, the turkey loads are my first choice. I have zero reservations about their effectiveness at the ranges I would be using them.

I understand completely, we are all entitled to our opinions and I respect your choice based on your experience and your HD application.

I hope neither of us ever find ourselves in a situation where we have to use our shotguns for self defense, but if we do I hope our loads work. :supergrin:

fredj338
10-10-2012, 17:53
Choke means nothing at 7 yds. I load turkey loads because they are higher quality shells (high brass, more reliable feeding/ extraction) than most target loads. Buck shot will penetrate walls/ floors etc more effectively than bird shot. A real issue in my house. Once bird shot loads have passed through sheet rock, doors, floors etc they may still be dangerous, but much less lethal than buckshot.

At 21 feet a skeet load will render a canadian goose into mangled sack of goo, so I have no idea what you are talking about with regard to larger birds.

To say choke means nothing @ 7yds tells me you either do not test your sg loads or have never used an open/riot choke, Yes it matters. A mod choke will reduce the spread to 2-3" @ 21ft, that is signifcant. Again, I wet pheasant @ approx 50ft w/ mod choke & #6 & had most pellets stop inside the bird & many right under the skin, not comforting for SD, but hey, your life.:dunno: My own test prove diff than complete obliteration of anything @ 21ft w/ an open/riot choke.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/ribs-1.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/ribtest.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/6shot.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/4buck.jpg
That was a #6 shot @ 21ft from a 870 riot bbl thru 2 layers of denim. Note none of the #6 went thru the ribs on the right. The left were smashed & broken using #4 buck. I know which would end the fight sooner than later. Yes choke matters at any distance but contact.

Tiro Fijo
10-10-2012, 18:30
Birdshot in a pinch if nothing else is available, but #1 buck is the best of all.

Warp
10-10-2012, 18:33
Birdshot in a pinch if nothing else is available, but #1 buck is the best of all.

#1 is indeed great.

How mine patterns at 75 feet

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g105/austin3161324/Firearms/c310f94f.jpg

21 feet (plus some 00 to the cranium)
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g105/austin3161324/Firearms/6bb46969.jpg

SCmasterblaster
10-11-2012, 12:10
#1 is indeed great.

How mine patterns at 75 feet

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g105/austin3161324/Firearms/c310f94f.jpg

21 feet (plus some 00 to the cranium)
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g105/austin3161324/Firearms/6bb46969.jpg

Nice pics! :cool:

scccdoc
10-11-2012, 13:11
Here is a thread and a quote from earlier today...........



Chris Costa on HD shotguns and handguns (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1447287&highlight=Chris+Costa)

Also, itís worth noting that during my courses or when I shoot in my DVDs, every time I shoot Iím firing law enforcement rounds of 1600 feet/second slugs, or 1500/second 00 buck. Iím not going out there running birdshot; you know if we went out there and ran birdshot #7 or #8 I could actually employ the gun much faster. My whole goal is to demonstrate and teach whatís very realistic.

SCmasterblaster
10-12-2012, 14:12
Here is a thread and a quote from earlier today...........



Chris Costa on HD shotguns and handguns (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1447287&highlight=Chris+Costa)

Also, itís worth noting that during my courses or when I shoot in my DVDs, every time I shoot Iím firing law enforcement rounds of 1600 feet/second slugs, or 1500/second 00 buck. Iím not going out there running birdshot; you know if we went out there and ran birdshot #7 or #8 I could actually employ the gun much faster. My whole goal is to demonstrate and teach whatís very realistic.

Nice link! :cool:

Providence
10-13-2012, 07:59
It was an interesting read. I'm curious about his instruction to center the gun on your chest as much as possible? I have the Magpul video, but I don't remember that... Must have not paid enough attention.

He makes a good point about the pistol at night, clearing the house. I don't plan on any house clearing. We are going to retreat and defend from cover. DWHas the rifle and I have the SG. She is a deadly shot! So our philosophy is that out pistols are to get us to our long guns. I realize kids would complicate that, but ours are grown.


Please vote! It's that important!

Providence
10-13-2012, 08:02
It was an interesting read. I'm curious about his instruction to center the gun on your chest as much as possible? I have the Magpul video, but I don't remember that... Must have not paid enough attention.

He makes a good point about the pistol at night, clearing the house. I don't plan on any house clearing. We are going to retreat and defend from cover. DWHas the rifle and I have the SG. She is a deadly shot! So our philosophy is that out pistols are to get us to our long guns. I realize kids would complicate that, but ours are grown.


Please vote! It's that important!sorry, I was referring to the Chris Costa interview.




Please vote! It's that important!

SCmasterblaster
10-13-2012, 13:57
It was an interesting read. I'm curious about his instruction to center the gun on your chest as much as possible? I have the Magpul video, but I don't remember that... Must have not paid enough attention.

He makes a good point about the pistol at night, clearing the house. I don't plan on any house clearing. We are going to retreat and defend from cover. DWHas the rifle and I have the SG. She is a deadly shot! So our philosophy is that out pistols are to get us to our long guns. I realize kids would complicate that, but ours are grown.


Please vote! It's that important!

For Romney!!!