Imagine if the teachers' strike... [Archive] - Glock Talk

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devildog2067
10-03-2012, 17:29
Imagine if the narrative of the Chicago Public School teachers' strike had been "Give us the 17% raise we asked for, and we'll double the number of kids graduating high school reading at their grade level" or "we'll cut the dropout rate by 50%."

Imagine a real negotiation, instead of a bunch of people demanding more just because "they deserve it."

aplcr0331
10-03-2012, 17:39
But teachers:

1. Work harder than you do.
2. Buy all the supplies for the school.
3. Teach criminals.
4. Teach kids whose parents are criminals.
5. Teach in a war zone.
6. Teach kids who don't want to learn.
7. Teach kids who have parents who don't care.
8. Work all through the summer.
9. Grade papers at night.

CaptCave
10-03-2012, 18:19
Imagine if the narrative of the Chicago Public School teachers' strike had been "Give us the 17% raise we asked for, and we'll double the number of kids graduating high school reading at their grade level" or "we'll cut the dropout rate by 50%."

Imagine a real negotiation, instead of a bunch of people demanding more just because "they deserve it."

It's not completely a teacher problem, a large part of the problem is PARENTS.

G36's Rule
10-03-2012, 19:04
Imagine if the narrative of the Chicago Public School teachers' strike had been "Give us the 17% raise we asked for, and we'll double the number of kids graduating high school reading at their grade level" or "we'll cut the dropout rate by 50%."

Imagine a real negotiation, instead of a bunch of people demanding more just because "they deserve it."

Would be refreshing, if nothing else.

RonS
10-03-2012, 19:10
It's a social problem. Parents, teachers, schools of education, unions, politicians just about every group is at fault.

Our society is so messed up that we expect people to do things, make it impossible and then blame them for failing.

Parents who aren't even a family, just two selfish people who hooked up with no protection and have dumped the results onto the public education system.

Kids who have never been taught how to behave.

Teachers unions who get paid by how many teachers they represent.

Schools of education who believe that grading performance is unfair, that discipline is fascist and that it is better that a society perish than one child have his or her self esteem damaged by being told to try harder.

A judicial system that gets paid by how much legal activity there is in society.

ilgunguygt
10-03-2012, 19:26
But teachers:

1. Work harder than you do.
2. Buy all the supplies for the school.
3. Teach criminals.
4. Teach kids whose parents are criminals.
5. Teach in a war zone.
6. Teach kids who don't want to learn.
7. Teach kids who have parents who don't care.
8. Work all through the summer.
9. Grade papers at night.
Those teachers in chicago were making on average over 70k a year. In my town ib downstate IL the teachers make half that, on average. There is a 10 to 1 student to teacher ratio in chicago. In my town in downstate IL its about 25 to 1. Yeah, those poor chicago teachers need more money.

oldgraywolf
10-03-2012, 19:26
RonS, well said.

DWARREN123
10-03-2012, 19:27
Enough crap for everyone involved to get a bite of the sammich! :supergrin:

Gallium
10-03-2012, 19:34
It's a social problem. Parents, teachers, schools of education, unions, politicians just about every group is at fault.

Our society is so messed up that we expect people to do things, make it impossible and then blame them for failing.

Parents who aren't even a family, just two selfish people who hooked up with no protection and have dumped the results onto the public education system.

Kids who have never been taught how to behave.

Teachers unions who get paid by how many teachers they represent.

Schools of education who believe that grading performance is unfair, that discipline is fascist and that it is better that a society perish than one child have his or her self esteem damaged by being told to try harder.

A judicial system that gets paid by how much legal activity there is in society.


Thank you sir. It is by far, not solely a "teacher" problem. They are in there for sure, but their hands are as tied as ours are.

RenoF250
10-03-2012, 19:35
Imagine if the narrative of the Chicago Public School teachers' strike had been "Give us the 17% raise we asked for, and we'll double the number of kids graduating high school reading at their grade level" or "we'll cut the dropout rate by 50%."

Imagine a real negotiation, instead of a bunch of people demanding more just because "they deserve it."

To say that would imply that they can do it now but choose not to because they are not paid enough. You would be happy with that?

jame
10-03-2012, 19:40
It's a social problem. Parents, teachers, schools of education, unions, politicians just about every group is at fault…….



AMEN Brother Ron!

When every single person is this country understands that they are a part of the problem, the sun will rise again.


We need to act more like a team to pull ourselves out of this mess. The finger pointing has got to stop.

DWavs
10-03-2012, 19:41
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the catalyst for the strike was the new evaluation teachers will be under that is dependent on student performance.

Interesting...let's see if we can apply that to other professions:
Doctor...paid only if the patient doesn't die
Dentist...paid if the patient never got a cavity
Mechanic...paid if the car never broke down again
Lawyer...paid if they won every case
Salesman...paid if 100% of his/her items were sold that day
Police Officer...paid if every criminal was arrested
Judge...paid if a case was never appealed and won

hmmmm.......................

CitizenOfDreams
10-03-2012, 19:48
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the catalyst for the strike was the new evaluation teachers will be under that is dependent on student performance.

Interesting...let's see if we can apply that to other professions:
Doctor...paid only if the patient doesn't die
Dentist...paid if the patient never got a cavity
Mechanic...paid if the car never broke down again
Lawyer...paid if they won every case
Salesman...paid if 100% of his/her items were sold that day
Police Officer...paid if every criminal was arrested
Judge...paid if a case was never appealed and won

Somehow I doubt that the new teacher evaluation scheme was anything like "a teacher only gets paid if all his students become rocket surgeons".

DWavs
10-03-2012, 20:07
Somehow I doubt that the new teacher evaluation scheme was anything like "a teacher only gets paid if all his students become rocket surgeons".

You missed the point...40% of the new evaluation is based on student performance. So...they don't perform and you get released then that would in turn result in not getting paid since you would be unemployed.

tous
10-03-2012, 20:14
Are you telling me that public school isn't like Room 22, Mr. Novak or Lucas Tanner? :shocked:

Not even like Fame, where the chil'runs dance on the cars at the drop of a hat? :shocked:

CAcop
10-03-2012, 20:42
It's a social problem. Parents, teachers, schools of education, unions, politicians just about every group is at fault.

Our society is so messed up that we expect people to do things, make it impossible and then blame them for failing.

Parents who aren't even a family, just two selfish people who hooked up with no protection and have dumped the results onto the public education system.

Kids who have never been taught how to behave.

Teachers unions who get paid by how many teachers they represent.

Schools of education who believe that grading performance is unfair, that discipline is fascist and that it is better that a society perish than one child have his or her self esteem damaged by being told to try harder.

A judicial system that gets paid by how much legal activity there is in society.

Pretty good summantion. No part of the machine is working properly.

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CAcop
10-03-2012, 20:43
Those teachers in chicago were making on average over 70k a year. In my town ib downstate IL the teachers make half that, on average. There is a 10 to 1 student to teacher ratio in chicago. In my town in downstate IL its about 25 to 1. Yeah, those poor chicago teachers need more money.

Most correctional facilities have a high staff to inmate ratio.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

devildog2067
10-03-2012, 21:11
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the catalyst for the strike was the new evaluation teachers will be under that is dependent on student performance.

Legally, the teachers are not allowed to strike unless they are striking over pay and benefits. So if they went on strike over the evaluation system, they were breaking the law.

And if it was about the new evaluation system, why did they demand a 17% raise?

The evaluation system is a federal mandate, by the way, it's not something that Illinois just decided to do out of the blue.

Interesting...let's see if we can apply that to other professions:

Lots of other professions are paid on results.

Mechanic...paid if the car never broke down again

Mechanics don't get paid if the cars they fix keep breaking down.


Lawyer...paid if they won every case

Lots of lawyers out there only get paid if they win a case. And fundamentally, law firms that don't win cases go out of business.

Salesman...paid if 100% of his/her items were sold that day

Almost all salesmen ONLY get sold when they sell stuff. That's how selling works.

devildog2067
10-03-2012, 21:12
To say that would imply that they can do it now but choose not to because they are not paid enough.

No, not necessarily.

It could mean "If we had the extra funds to attract more qualified teachers, we could do more."

Shouldn't that be the message? Shouldn't they be asking for more pay to get better people, not to simply keep paying people more to do what they've been doing?

CAcop
10-03-2012, 21:20
No, not necessarily.

It could mean "If we had the extra funds to attract more qualified teachers, we could do more."

Shouldn't that be the message? Shouldn't they be asking for more pay to get better people, not to simply keep paying people more to do what they've been doing?

Recruiting and retention. Different sides of the same coin.

Jade Falcon
10-03-2012, 21:23
But teachers:

1. Work harder than you do.
2. Buy all the supplies for the school.
3. Teach criminals.
4. Teach kids whose parents are criminals.
5. Teach in a war zone.
6. Teach kids who don't want to learn.
7. Teach kids who have parents who don't care.
8. Work all through the summer.
9. Grade papers at night.

Thank you. I'm sick of all this "thier Obama supporters, so they automatically suck" attitude. Shut up. MOST of them deserve a raise, just for working in Chicago.

devildog2067
10-03-2012, 21:25
Thank you.

I think your sarcasm meter is broken.

Jade Falcon
10-03-2012, 21:27
I think your sarcasm meter is broken.

Wrong. I just don't listen to bull****.

DWavs
10-03-2012, 21:32
Legally, the teachers are not allowed to strike unless they are striking over pay and benefits. So if they went on strike over the evaluation system, they were breaking the law.

And if it was about the new evaluation system, why did they demand a 17% raise?

The evaluation system is a federal mandate, by the way, it's not something that Illinois just decided to do out of the blue.



Lots of other professions are paid on results.


Mechanics don't get paid if the cars they fix keep breaking down.



Lots of lawyers out there only get paid if they win a case. And fundamentally, law firms that don't win cases go out of business.



Almost all salesmen ONLY get sold when they sell stuff. That's how selling works.

Of course it is a federal mandate...nobody said it wasn't.

I need to pull some receipts from past mechanics..they owe me some money for some reoccurring issues that I got charged for!

And now I feel guilty for not buying the bracelet for my wife from that purdy sales woman last year...I didn't know her salary was pivotal on my sole decision.

devildog2067
10-03-2012, 21:32
Wrong. I just don't listen to bull****.

Well, you quoted an entire tongue-in-cheek post and agreed with it... you not only "listened" to bull****, you swallowed it whole.

devildog2067
10-03-2012, 21:34
I need to pull some receipts from past mechanics..they owe me some money for some reoccurring issues that I got charged for!

So... you paid a mechanic to fix something, and it broke again, and you didn't take it back to the mechanic and demand that they fix the problem they were paid to fix?

And now I feel guilty for not buying the bracelet for my wife from that purdy sales woman last year...I didn't know her salary was pivotal on my sole decision.

Salespeople get paid if they sell. They get fired if they don't sell. That's how sales works.

Her salary isn't dependent on your "sole" decision, but if she doesn't do a good job with enough people she gets fired.

And no teacher was going to get judged on the "sole" opinion or performance of a single student. They were (are) being judged on the overall performance of the students they work with.

DWavs
10-03-2012, 21:38
And no teacher was going to get judged on the "sole" opinion or performance of a single student. They were (are) being judged on the overall performance of the students they work with.

Wait a minute...isn't that single student part of the overall performance??

certifiedfunds
10-03-2012, 21:40
If teachers are unhappy with their pay, benefits and working conditions, they should quit and find employment opportunities that are better.

Apparently things aren't so bad.

DWavs
10-03-2012, 21:43
So... you paid a mechanic to fix something, and it broke again, and you didn't take it back to the mechanic and demand that they fix the problem they were paid to fix?



Salespeople get paid if they sell. They get fired if they don't sell. That's how sales works.

Her salary isn't dependent on your "sole" decision, but if she doesn't do a good job with enough people she gets fired.

And no teacher was going to get judged on the "sole" opinion or performance of a single student. They were (are) being judged on the overall performance of the students they work with.

FWIW...I will say that I agree that a 17% increase is ridiculous. I am a teacher and have seen a 0% increase in 5 years. ;)

devildog2067
10-03-2012, 21:44
Wait a minute...isn't that single student part of the overall performance??

Yes, of course it is. It's "part." Hence, not "sole."

devildog2067
10-03-2012, 21:45
FWIW...I will say that I agree that a 17% increase is ridiculous. I am a teacher and have seen a 0% increase in 5 years. ;)

I was a teacher, and when I wanted a raise, I found a job that paid better.

Rabbi
10-03-2012, 21:46
To say that would imply that they can do it now but choose not to because they are not paid enough. You would be happy with that?

That is a very fine insight. I mean that.


However, I dont expect people to do what they have not contracted to do. Right now, they dont (most teachers dont) have too many benchmarks in their contracts (related to pay)

Understanding this, I would like to (as devildog does) wants to tie a pay increase to new contractual obligations.

aplcr0331
10-03-2012, 22:00
Thank you. I'm sick of all this "thier Obama supporters, so they automatically suck" attitude. Shut up. MOST of them deserve a raise, just for working in Chicago.

As Steven alluded to, I was being sarcastic. I still have yet to meet a teacher who did not tell me they teach in the environment I listed above. Not one.

Still have not met a teacher who will tell me, as a percentage, how much of an effect they have on their students. 10%, 35%, 75%? I always see these great posters on Facebook about how there would be no professionals without teachers, yada-yada-yada, what influence do you have?

Is it always the parents fault? Always? Then conversely it must also be the parents fault when things go right, as they often do with some students. Can't have it both ways you either influence the students or you don't. Which is it, and by how much?

certifiedfunds
10-03-2012, 22:16
FWIW...I will say that I agree that a 17% increase is ridiculous. I am a teacher and have seen a 0% increase in 5 years. ;)

So are you seeking other employment?

CAcop
10-03-2012, 22:36
So are you seeking other employment?

Statistically speaking if he has less than 5 years in it is about 50/50.

certifiedfunds
10-03-2012, 22:46
Statistically speaking if he has less than 5 years in it is about 50/50.

:dunno:

No shortage of teachers out there. I'm sure filling the position isn't a problem.

jpa
10-03-2012, 22:48
If I get a pay raise I'll make it rain skittles.

CAcop
10-03-2012, 23:42
:dunno:

No shortage of teachers out there. I'm sure filling the position isn't a problem.

Apparently not. Apparently it is not that hard to fill the same positions every 5 years.

I have met people over the years who went into teaching only to get out pretty quickly. They tend to fall into two camps. Those that realize they really don't have all their summers off and those that get burnt on the kids/parents/admin.

The ones that stay seem to be the ones who create a lesson plan that they can use year after year with little, if any, changes and it doesn't bother them to teach to a test.

ugly8604
10-04-2012, 00:11
Is the OP really stupid enough to believe teachers can change whether or not teenagers will drop out or even learn anything in high school if they don't want to? By the time they get to high school most of those kids have seen more than most adults outside of the big city. If they want to stay, they'll stay, if not, there's nothing a single teacher can do about it.

Some people are COMPLETELY out of touch with reality, and they tend to have the biggest mouths.

devildog2067
10-04-2012, 05:44
Is the OP really stupid enough to believe teachers can change whether or not teenagers will drop out or even learn anything in high school if they don't want to?

If the teachers don't affect the behavior or learning of their students, then why do we pay them?

I have been an educator. I have taught college, I have taught high school, and I teach in the Chicago Public School system--for free, as a volunteer. I have the ability to do so because I happen to hold a job that pays very well, and it both encourages me to engage in social impact activities and gives me the flexibility to do so.

The fact is (we do a lot of pro bono work for CPS, so I get to look at this data) teachers can and do make a difference. It's a profession where it's very difficult to quantify the precise impact that a particular teacher has on a particular student, but it's not at all difficult to measure the total impact that the teachers have on all of the students together.

You can't have a "negotiation" simply by making demands. A negotiation should consist of demands coupled with offers: "If you do this, I'll do that." What did the Chicago Teacher's Union offer in exchange for the 17% raise they demanded?

devildog2067
10-04-2012, 05:46
The ones that stay seem to be the ones who create a lesson plan that they can use year after year with little, if any, changes and it doesn't bother them to teach to a test.

And those are exactly the ones we don't WANT staying. Those are the ones who are overpaid.

There is another category: Those that stay because they really, truly love teaching and see it as a calling. These teachers are very much underpaid.

But the way we've constructed our teacher pay scale, both of these teachers get paid the same. It's criminally lazy. Pay great teachers more and bad teachers less.

certifiedfunds
10-04-2012, 06:44
Is the OP really stupid enough to believe teachers can change whether or not teenagers will drop out or even learn anything in high school if they don't want to? By the time they get to high school most of those kids have seen more than most adults outside of the big city. If they want to stay, they'll stay, if not, there's nothing a single teacher can do about it.

Some people are COMPLETELY out of touch with reality, and they tend to have the biggest mouths.

If they're ineffective, shouldn't we be cutting pay?

CAcop
10-04-2012, 09:59
And those are exactly the ones we don't WANT staying. Those are the ones who are overpaid.

There is another category: Those that stay because they really, truly love teaching and see it as a calling. These teachers are very much underpaid.

But the way we've constructed our teacher pay scale, both of these teachers get paid the same. It's criminally lazy. Pay great teachers more and bad teachers less.

It's going to take a whole lot of people in the room to try to come up with a fair performance evaluation. Holding ghetto high school teachers to the same standards as suburban elementary kids is going to be problematic. Teachers, parents, admin, and politicians not trying to score points with the public are going to have to work it out.

To be honest even the teachers who were good and loved teaching still used the same lesson plans year after year.

I think the 50% in 5 year dropout rate for teachers has a lot to do with the fact that at least here in CA it is only an extra year of college to get the teaching credential and then 5 years of teaching and continuing ed for the permanent. The fresh grads think, "Cool summers off." Then they realize they need to start taking classes, reading books, going to seminars, etc. to keep teaching. Now they have to decide when they are going to take essentially summer school or night school. And it is not like the school district is going to pay them for their time or expense. Who knows, they might need to do it more like cops where our training is provided by the employer.

I know if I had gotten a teaching credential in college I would have been blind to the continuing ed requirements or I would have been less aware of the impact. Now I know and would be prepared for it. I would factor that into my decision to teach.

I also think teaching my be leftover from our early days when unmarried women or married men would teach. The married men would do it for years and the unmarried women would do it until they found a man. And if they never found a man they would stick with it until they died or retired.

dango
10-04-2012, 10:21
It's not completely a teacher problem, a large part of the problem is PARENTS.

Or lack there of any parenting!

INJoker
10-04-2012, 19:31
DevilDog,

The teachers I know aren't upset about being measured against a high standard. In fact, many of them welcome that. They're upset because the criteria they're being measured against do not reflect reality.

DWavs made a bit of a mistake in his analogies earlier, but let's touch on that thread for a minute:

Asking teachers to overcome all imaginable family, social and lifestyle factors to guarantee equal progress and/or equal outcomes for all students is the underlying goal of most teacher evaluation programs I've seen. Doing this assumes that all children are born equally intelligent to equally intelligent, educated parents. It assumes that these children are all proficient in English and that their families facilitate and encourage educational progress in the home. It assumes their parents read to all of them at night and help them with their homework. This approach assumes that these children all have identical levels of intrinsic motivation, self control and aptitude.

It would literally be akin to asking a family physician to guarantee that a 30-year-old patient who smokes two packs a day, drinks a six-pack a night, abuses drugs, routinely forgets to bathe or brush his teeth, eats junk food, never exercises, stays up late playing video games, who has high blood pressure and a family history of heart disease, stroke and cancer and who has no willpower to live an even remotely healthy lifestyle whatsoever will live as long as an educated, responsible marathoner who eats well, gets plenty of sleep each night, does not drink, smoke or use drugs and who has no family history of any form of illness.

Is it possible these two men could live to the same age? Indeed. Is it even possible the slob could outlive the health-nut? Sure.

But can you honestly ask the doctor to treat both of them in such a capacity that they are both guaranteed an equal standard of living and lifespan? Absolutely not.

Now imagine that the slob spends 7 hours per day with the doctor and attempts to clean up his act during the day, yet as soon as he leaves the doctor's office he goes back to his filthy apartment full of booze, junk food, cigarettes and drugs to a family that encourages him to stop seeing the doctor and instead partake in all of these unhealthy activities in order to fit in.

Does that slob really stand a chance? Can that doctor really make a difference?

GT loves to harp on and on about personal responsibility almost as much as GT loves to ***** about teachers, yet nobody on GT will blame the people most directly linked to the success of their children in ANY educational program: the parents.

I also never see quantitative analysis of data showing the correlations between parents income level, education level and involvement in their child's education to the child's chances for academic success.

INJoker
10-04-2012, 19:46
I think the 50% in 5 year dropout rate for teachers has a lot to do with the fact that at least here in CA it is only an extra year of college to get the teaching credential and then 5 years of teaching and continuing ed for the permanent. The fresh grads think, "Cool summers off." Then they realize they need to start taking classes, reading books, going to seminars, etc. to keep teaching. Now they have to decide when they are going to take essentially summer school or night school. And it is not like the school district is going to pay them for their time or expense.

Here in Indiana, 50% of teachers are out of the classroom within 5 years as well.

Here in Indiana, teachers start at roughly $30,000 per year, with the option to earn an extra ~$2,000 for teaching summer school.

Teacher salaries are capped after 20 years of service in the district I live in at $54,000 for Bachelor's degree-holders and $64,000 for Master's degree-holders.

Do you know what the average salary is for someone with an M.B.A. in Indiana? Conservative numbers put a starting M.B.A. salary at about $66,000 - or MORE than a 20-year teacher with a Master's in Education.

http://www.businessweek.com/bschools/content/sep2009/bs20090928_592028.htm

Both of the teachers that I am related to work longer hours than I do for much lower pay and lesser benefits. The ONLY thing they have going for them is the "summers off" gig, except the district I live in just went to a year-round calendar.

At my last job, which did not require a college degree, I made twice what the average teacher with 10 years of experience and a Master's degree in my district makes. I had six weeks of vacation per year, a ridiculous benefit plan and I worked roughly 35 hours per week.

When I hear people talk about how great and easy teaching jobs are, I just want to slap them. Hard.

INJoker
10-04-2012, 19:56
Educate yourselves here:

http://www.hoosierdata.in.gov/docs/hwhd/hwhd2010_2012-stwd.pdf

$55K for a public school teacher with a Bachelor's degree or higher plus experience
$56K for an RN with an ASSOCIATE'S DEGREE

Rabbi
10-04-2012, 19:58
Do you know what the average salary is for someone with an M.B.A. in Indiana? Conservative numbers put a starting M.B.A. salary at about $66,000 - or MORE than a 20-year teacher with a Master's in Education.


We all know that not all degrees lead to the same income.

Having said that, a Masters in Education is considered one of the easiest (and is panned for being so) masters to get. An MBA on the other hand, can be a very valuable degree and is somewhere on the upper end of the middle in terms of difficulty to obtains.

The other issue is use. People who get a masters in education pretty much universally teach (or needed to get the fastest and easiest masters they could for some other reason) They dont have a lot of channels to enter into with that degree.

Someone who gets and MBA can do a very large number of things for a very large number of industries.

A quick last thought and probably the most poignant...What does someone with an MBA do?...manage, and often ending up at the executive level. What does someone with a Masters of Education do?...the same thing, still teaching, now with incentive pay. So, at the most basic level, the MBA does something more and differant. The Masters in Education does the same things, just (in theory) better.

The compensation of each reflects all of these things.

To be flippant, your comparison is silly. Why dont you just compare Masters of Education to MSME guy...they get close to 6 figures for a starting point.

Rabbi
10-04-2012, 20:00
Educate yourselves here:

http://www.hoosierdata.in.gov/docs/hwhd/hwhd2010_2012-stwd.pdf

$55K for a public school teacher with a Bachelor's degree or higher plus experience
$56K for an RN with an ASSOCIATE'S DEGREE

So be an RN. There really is no other rational answer.

Have you seen the starting salary for a petroleum engineer? Using your logic, person with womans study degree should make a similar amount. It doesnt work that way.

INJoker
10-04-2012, 20:14
Rabbi,

I provided the data for comparison purposes only...

What I'm getting at is the fact that I almost universally hear that teachers are "overpaid" and whenever they want a wage increase, it's deemed extortion by GT-at-large.

I was simply trying to illustrate that, all things being equal, teachers have a low starting salary, modest mid-career salary and modest end-of-career salary relative to other occupations which require the same level of education or experience.

MooseJaw
10-04-2012, 20:15
Let 'em Strike..

The NFL Ref scabs are available, and you can draw from that work pool to fill the vacancies..

No Problemo.. :wavey:

Rabbi
10-04-2012, 20:21
Rabbi,

I provided the data for comparison purposes only...

What I'm getting at is the fact that I almost universally hear that teachers are "overpaid" and whenever they want a wage increase, it's deemed extortion by GT-at-large.

I was simply trying to illustrate that, all things being equal, teachers have a low starting salary, modest mid-career salary and modest end-of-career salary relative to other occupations which require the same level of education or experience.

I can understand you feel that way, you may even be right but you did not illustrated that.

Brain surgeons have a profesional degree(doctorate). People who have research degrees, such as a PhD (considered superior to professsional degrees in acedemia)

Brain surgeons make a metric crap ton more money than guy with PhD in English.

You cant compare teacher with masters in education to guy taking a management job in private industry with his MBA. They dont do the same thing, in the same place with the same skill sets.

Masters of Education does not equal MBA.

INJoker
10-04-2012, 20:36
I can understand you feel that way, you may even be right but you did not illustrated that.

Brain surgeons have a profesional degree(doctrate). People who have research degrees, such as a PhD (considered superior to professsional degrees in acedemia)

Brain surgeons make a metric crap ton more money than guy with PhD in English.

You cant compare teacher with masters in education to guy taking a management job in private industry with his MBA. They dont do the same thing, in the same place with the same skill sets.

Masters of Education does not equal MBA.

I concede your point that the "level" of the degree does not in and of itself carry an inherent value for equal comparison.

The point of the data I provided is to illustrate that a 20-year-old kid with a 2-year Associate's Degree in Nursing will make more in his/her first year of full-time employment than the average Indiana public school teacher will after his/her 20th year of service with a Bachelor's degree - the minimum degree level required to teach in Indiana.

A Women's Studies degree is not equal to an Education degree, which does not equal a Business degree or Engineering degree, etc.
But from the continuing education perspective, that isn't as relevant as you would like for it to be.

For instance, why would a middle manager in corporate America pursue a Master's in Education? Why would a teacher pursue an M.B.A.? They wouldn't. It would not make sense in the progression of their respective careers.

So in the context of professional development, a Master's in Education is the next logical step up for the average teacher just as an M.B.A. would be for the average accountant or marketer.

Rabbi
10-04-2012, 20:42
For instance, why would a middle manager in corporate America pursue a Master's in Education? Why would a teacher pursue an M.B.A.?

They wouldn't. It would not make sense in the progression of their respective careers.

So in the context of professional development, a Master's in Education is the next logical step up for the average teacher just as an M.B.A. would be for the average accountant or marketer.

It is the next logical step(M.edu)...and that step doesnt pay as well as getting an MBA (or an RN...or whatever)

If you are a cop and work for an agency that requires a "Masters" to be promoted to Captain....it doesnt matter if you get a MSME or a Masters in Education. Of course, that doesnt change the potential value of each of those choices.



You are still looking at this in terms of apples and oranges. You cant (and you wont get anyone to take you seriously, except for folks who already agree with you) compare whate teachers make to what ....(whatever) makes.

If you want to be a nurse, the market pays for that based on what a nurse must go though and then does.

certifiedfunds
10-04-2012, 21:45
Rabbi,

I provided the data for comparison purposes only...

What I'm getting at is the fact that I almost universally hear that teachers are "overpaid" and whenever they want a wage increase, it's deemed extortion by GT-at-large.

I was simply trying to illustrate that, all things being equal, teachers have a low starting salary, modest mid-career salary and modest end-of-career salary relative to other occupations which require the same level of education or experience.

Why should we pay them more?

That is a serious question. Teachers want a pay increase. Why should we, as taxpayers, give it to them? What will we get in return for it?

Will results improve if we pay the teachers more?

devildog2067
10-04-2012, 22:36
The teachers I know aren't upset about being measured against a high standard. In fact, many of them welcome that. They're upset because the criteria they're being measured against do not reflect reality.

On the contrary: things like test scores are the most objective reality there is. There is no more "real" reality than a set of numbers like the results of a standardized test.

The correct question to ask is, are those scores measuring the right thing? I think that's what you were trying to get at. But to suggest that test scores "do not reflect reality" is ridiculous.

Asking teachers to overcome all imaginable family, social and lifestyle factors to guarantee equal progress and/or equal outcomes for all students is the underlying goal of most teacher evaluation programs I've seen. Doing this assumes that all children are born equally intelligent to equally intelligent, educated parents. It assumes that these children are all proficient in English and that their families facilitate and encourage educational progress in the home. It assumes their parents read to all of them at night and help them with their homework. This approach assumes that these children all have identical levels of intrinsic motivation, self control and aptitude.

Not at all. Not even a little. No one is asking teachers to guarantee equal progress or equal outcomes.

This is the beauty of large numbers: no one expects teachers to make every student equal. The expectation is that the teacher helps every student improve, such than, on average, the group shows improvement.

GT loves to harp on and on about personal responsibility almost as much as GT loves to ***** about teachers, yet nobody on GT will blame the people most directly linked to the success of their children in ANY educational program: the parents.

If the teachers do not affect the outcome, then the teachers shouldn't have a job.

But you're wrong. Teachers do have a measurable impact. Good teachers help students improve--a lot.

I also never see quantitative analysis of data showing the correlations between parents income level, education level and involvement in their child's education to the child's chances for academic success.

I've done them. In fact, I do them for a living--my firm does quite a bit of pro bono work for school districts. Education is one of our social impact focuses.

Of course students who come from wealthy families with well-educated parents tend to do better in school. So what?

Teachers are NOT being asked to guarantee, as you continue to imply, that students in poor neighborhoods with broken families who go hungry at night perform at the same level as kids in suburban schools with soccer mommies.

Teachers are being asked to help those kids. Those kids need help and they're not getting it.

Teachers are being asked to show that their students are improving. The teacher evaluation system that the CTU was so up in arms about? It was going to measure each teacher's performance by testing their students at the beginning of the year, then again at the end of the year, and seeing if test scores improved. That's all. Did this teacher's 30 students do better after a year of teaching than before?

If you genuinely, honestly think that a teacher shouldn't be held accountable to that bare minimum standard, then what are the teachers doing? Why do they have jobs in the first place?

devildog2067
10-04-2012, 22:44
Do you know what the average salary is for someone with an M.B.A. in Indiana? Conservative numbers put a starting M.B.A. salary at about $66,000 - or MORE than a 20-year teacher with a Master's in Education.


That sounds pretty low--we start MBAs at about $160-170k all in, plus a 5-figure signing bonus.


When I hear people talk about how great and easy teaching jobs are, I just want to slap them. Hard.

I have been a teacher.

Teaching is not hard.

Teaching well is very hard, and a lot of work.

You know what else is hard? Roofing. I did that one summer and I thought I was going to die.

Salaries are not set by how "hard" a job is. Salaries are set by the amount of value that an employee creates. I get paid very well and I sit behind a desk for a living now, I really don't work very "hard" at all. My job is to think creatively and solve problems.

It's not "hard" in the way that hauling shingles up a ladder was, but it's "hard" in the sense that not many people can do it. There's a lot of pressure. There's a lot of stress. We create a lot of value, and so we get paid a lot of money.

That is fundamentally how people get paid. Salespeople who make sales are valuable to their companies, so they get paid. Orthopedic surgeons who do more knee replacement surgeries are more valuable than ones who do fewer, and they get paid more. Executives who manage companies well are more valuable than ones who do it poorly; the ones who do well get paid more and the ones who do badly get fired.

You argue that teachers can't change the outcomes for students, so where is the value that they create? Why should they get paid at all?

The above is rhetorical, of course. Teachers create immense value, it's just more difficult to measure than the value that a salesman brings to an organization. That's fine, not everything in life is simple.

But to refuse to acknowledge that teachers can have a positive, measurable effect on outcomes--that's just stupid. Teachers want more, they should offer more.

devildog2067
10-04-2012, 22:50
I concede your point that the "level" of the degree does not in and of itself carry an inherent value for equal comparison.

I know people with PhDs who are stay at home moms. I know people with PhDs who drive trucks (seriously, a buddy of mine was tired of being a scientist and got a CDL and now he drives trucks for a living, and seems pretty happy). I know people with PhDs who are professors, and I know people with PhDs who are partners in consulting firms that make a couple of million dollars (or more than a couple, some of them) annually.

A degree is a minimum certification, nothing more. As someone who has several, I know better than most--at the end of the day, they're just letters after your name. They don't entitle you to anything at all, and in fact the idea that a teacher with a master's degree should automatically get paid more than a teacher with just a BA is part of what's wrong with teacher pay.

The point of the data I provided is to illustrate that a 20-year-old kid with a 2-year Associate's Degree in Nursing will make more in his/her first year of full-time employment than the average Indiana public school teacher will after his/her 20th year of service with a Bachelor's degree
So, go be a nurse.

So in the context of professional development, a Master's in Education is the next logical step up for the average teacher just as an M.B.A. would be for the average accountant or marketer.
But does the Master's in Education make the teacher a better teacher?

If so, shouldn't we be able to measure that impact?

Shouldn't a teacher with "just" a BA whose students improve more than someone with a Masters whose students don't improve get paid more? Why should the Master's degree holder get paid more just because they got a sheepskin to hang on their wall? Doesn't performance matter more than checking a box?

devildog2067
10-04-2012, 22:55
I was simply trying to illustrate that, all things being equal, teachers have a low starting salary, modest mid-career salary and modest end-of-career salary relative to other occupations which require the same level of education or experience.

Other occupations don't give you "tenure" after a few years. And let's be honest, the "same" level of education isn't really the same. A BA in English is not the same as a BS in math. There's always a critical shortage of teachers in STEM fields, precisely because someone with a BS in chemistry can probably go do something else that pays more but someone with a BA in Art History probably can't.

Everything that's wrong with the educational system can be traced back to this idea of treating everyone--students and teachers both--as being "the same."

Let the great students excel, and the struggling students fail a bit. Let the great teachers get paid more and the lousy teachers get fired. Teacher effectiveness CAN be measured--not perfectly, but it can be done.

INJoker
10-05-2012, 05:22
It is the next logical step(M.edu)...and that step doesnt pay as well as getting an MBA (or an RN...or whatever)

If you are a cop and work for an agency that requires a "Masters" to be promoted to Captain....it doesnt matter if you get a MSME or a Masters in Education. Of course, that doesnt change the potential value of each of those choices.

You are still looking at this in terms of apples and oranges. You cant (and you wont get anyone to take you seriously, except for folks who already agree with you) compare whate teachers make to what ....(whatever) makes.

If you want to be a nurse, the market pays for that based on what a nurse must go though and then does.

There are political factors outside of "the market" that affect teacher compensation. As I mentioned, there are salary caps in place for teachers in the district in which I live... An extraordinary teacher with stellar results in the classroom simply cannot be compensated at a rate above what is determined by the district/union agreement.

What I'm really hearing from you is, as it appears to me, a reflection of the sentiment that teachers and the service they provide are not valuable.

You mentioned in an earlier post that:

A quick last thought and probably the most poignant...What does someone with an MBA do?...manage, and often ending up at the executive level. What does someone with a Masters of Education do?...the same thing, still teaching, now with incentive pay.

Please tell me how middle management in a private corporation is inherently more valuable than teaching?

Please tell me what fundamental skills one needs to obtain an M.B.A.?

Please tell me where one obtains those fundamental skills?

INJoker
10-05-2012, 05:26
Why should we pay them more?

That is a serious question. Teachers want a pay increase. Why should we, as taxpayers, give it to them? What will we get in return for it?

Will results improve if we pay the teachers more?

Going back to my initial assertion:

The teachers that I know do not want more money. They feel they are fairly compensated, despite being compensated at a relatively low rate compared to the private sector.

The teachers that I know only want to be fairly evaluated.

Going back to my "Doctor" analogy, please explain to me how it is rational to pin a child's cognitive abilities, aptitude, level of interest, motivation, English proficiency and behavior entirely on a third-grade teacher who only sees him 7 hours per day, 180 days per year?

You really think the impact that teacher has is going to outweigh the influence of the child's drop-out parents who work in a factory?

There is a reason that the children of educated individuals achieve much higher scores on standardized tests: they are expected to do so by their parents.

INJoker
10-05-2012, 05:33
If you genuinely, honestly think that a teacher shouldn't be held accountable to that bare minimum standard, then what are the teachers doing? Why do they have jobs in the first place?

I never said they shouldn't be held accountable, nor did I say they have no influence. I said they want to be held accountable in the right areas and that parents have the most direct impact on a child's chance of success. As your own research indicates, a student's home life has far greater impact on that child's academic ability than which teacher he/she had a particular year.

Everything that's wrong with the educational system can be traced back to this idea of treating everyone--students and teachers both--as being "the same."

Let the great students excel, and the struggling students fail a bit. Let the great teachers get paid more and the lousy teachers get fired. Teacher effectiveness CAN be measured--not perfectly, but it can be done.

I agree with this quote.

Everything else in your other three posts has already been addressed between Rabbi and myself.

certifiedfunds
10-05-2012, 06:12
Going back to my initial assertion:

The teachers that I know do not want more money. They feel they are fairly compensated, despite being compensated at a relatively low rate compared to the private sector.

The teachers that I know only want to be fairly evaluated.

Going back to my "Doctor" analogy, please explain to me how it is rational to pin a child's cognitive abilities, aptitude, level of interest, motivation, English proficiency and behavior entirely on a third-grade teacher who only sees him 7 hours per day, 180 days per year?

You really think the impact that teacher has is going to outweigh the influence of the child's drop-out parents who work in a factory?

There is a reason that the children of educated individuals achieve much higher scores on standardized tests: they are expected to do so by their parents.

Do you know anyone who thinks they are fairly evaluated?

I'm in sales. My success is largely measured by a simple set of numbers. Those numbers represent only a fraction of what I do every day for my employer. I have a supervisor who lives 800 miles away who will see me 4x yearly. What do you think the chances are that I'll be evaluated fairly?

I'm asked to work evenings, occasional weekends. I'm asked to do things that aren't directly in my job description. No additional compensation though, yes, I make a considerable amount more than a teacher.

My point being that everyone has their burdens. IMO, teachers do an inordinate amount of complaining about theirs.

Rabbi
10-05-2012, 07:30
Please tell me how middle management in a private corporation is inherently more valuable than teaching?

Please tell me what fundamental skills one needs to obtain an M.B.A.?

Please tell me where one obtains those fundamental skills?

The market compensates it at a higher rate. The market deems it more valuable.

As for trying to tie the learning of those skills starting with teachers....nah, I am not falling for that. That is a poor argument. Using your logic, the teacher is more valuable than the skill...which is not true. The skill is more valuable than the teacher. Using your logic, the elementary teacher should make more than the high school teacher, and the high school teacher should make more than the college Prof....because without the first, a person would not be able to go on to the next....but it works the exact opposite way.

You simply dont understand value. For a biting remark, the MBA would, the teacher, probably not.

certifiedfunds
10-05-2012, 07:34
Please tell me how middle management in a private corporation is inherently more valuable than teaching?

Please tell me what fundamental skills one needs to obtain an M.B.A.?



The middle manager in a private corporation generates the wealth to fund the schools.

That's how.

As for fundamental skills, education is widely regarded as one of the least challenging college curriculums, not that it matters here.

INJoker
10-06-2012, 08:33
Do you know anyone who thinks they are fairly evaluated?

I'm in sales. My success is largely measured by a simple set of numbers. Those numbers represent only a fraction of what I do every day for my employer. I have a supervisor who lives 800 miles away who will see me 4x yearly. What do you think the chances are that I'll be evaluated fairly?

I'm asked to work evenings, occasional weekends. I'm asked to do things that aren't directly in my job description. No additional compensation though, yes, I make a considerable amount more than a teacher.

My point being that everyone has their burdens. IMO, teachers do an inordinate amount of complaining about theirs.

I'm in sales as well, in some of the most cost-competitive markets on earth.

Before I did this, I was in sales in one of the most competitive industries in North America.

We have the luxury of having an objective standard of measurement - our numbers. We have the luxury of being left to our own devices as to how we achieve those numbers.

Teachers do not.

Teachers cannot 80/20 their customers and "fire" the bad ones. Teachers cannot spend the majority of their time developing their "best" accounts - in fact, they have to spend most of their time trying to bring their laggards up to speed. Teachers have to follow very tightly scripted lesson plan templates in the classroom and meet very specific learning objectives - can you imagine if you had to use a script on every single sales call? Would you be as effective? Teachers cannot work harder or put in more hours to generate better results. They are on a limited schedule...

I could go on and on and on... Yes, everyone has their cross to bear and everyone has things they can complain about in their job - including evaluations.

But the simple fact of the matter is that evaluating teachers is much more subjective than evaluating a salesman.

certifiedfunds
10-06-2012, 08:37
I'm in sales as well, in some of the most cost-competitive markets on earth.

Before I did this, I was in sales in one of the most competitive industries in North America.

We have the luxury of having an objective standard of measurement - our numbers. We have the luxury of being left to our own devices as to how we achieve those numbers.

Teachers do not.

Teachers cannot 80/20 their customers and "fire" the bad ones. Teachers cannot spend the majority of their time developing their "best" accounts - in fact, they have to spend most of their time trying to bring their laggards up to speed. Teachers have to follow very tightly scripted lesson plan templates in the classroom and meet very specific learning objectives - can you imagine if you had to use a script on every single sales call? Would you be as effective? Teachers cannot work harder or put in more hours to generate better results. They are on a limited schedule...

I could go on and on and on... Yes, everyone has their cross to bear and everyone has things they can complain about in their job - including evaluations.

But the simple fact of the matter is that evaluating teachers is much more subjective than evaluating a salesman.

Yet every time objective standards are imposed on teachers they object.

You know the saying.....if you can't measure it you can't improve it.

CAcop
10-06-2012, 08:46
Yet every time objective standards are imposed on teachers they object.

You know the saying.....if you can't measure it you can't improve it.

Funny you should mention that. What do you think of social promotion in the schools and its effect on other students?

INJoker
10-06-2012, 08:49
The market compensates it at a higher rate. The market deems it more valuable.

As for trying to tie the learning of those skills starting with teachers....nah, I am not falling for that. That is a poor argument. Using your logic, the teacher is more valuable than the skill...which is not true. The skill is more valuable than the teacher. Using your logic, the elementary teacher should make more than the high school teacher, and the high school teacher should make more than the college Prof....because without the first, a person would not be able to go on to the next....but it works the exact opposite way.

You simply dont understand value. For a biting remark, the MBA would, the teacher, probably not.

We've already established that there are outside factors that affect teacher compensation. It's ludicrous to say that pure market forces are at work in public education. "The market" hasn't deemed anything. If education truly paid a fair wage, why would anyone ever leave? Why would 50% of teachers leave the classroom within 5 years?

If people do not need basic math, reading or other skills related to the learning process itself, why do we even have teachers then? To reverse your logic, you would expect people to be able to analyze macroeconomic trend data, develop financial forecasts and conduct market research without mastery of underlying, fundamental skills required to do so?

I don't believe that any "phase" of education is inherently more valuable than any other, but my experiences have taught me that being surrounded by a team with true mastery of basic concepts will get you much further than surrounding yourself with people who have lofty, visionary goals with no ability to execute on them.

Your "biting" remark doesn't offend me in the least because it is patently false. The amount of profit (read: not simply revenue) that I've generated for my employers over the past few years would not have been possible without a fundamental grasp of such concepts.

I'm not going to get into a willy-measuring contest on the internet over whether or not I understand value, because value is one of the most subjective topics we could possibly discuss.

For example, I value a proper primary and secondary education at a greater rate than you because I've seen it's ability to create further value down the chain. I fully credit my education and the wonderful teachers and mentors I've had for getting me to where I'm at right now. I learned more from my teachers and professors than I've learned from any manager I've worked for.

That's my bias. That's why I value teachers over MBAs.

I grew up in a blue-collar home with high school educated parents. I wasn't given anything but a strong work ethic and constant encouragement to study hard and make something of myself.

INJoker
10-06-2012, 08:51
The middle manager in a private corporation generates the wealth to fund the schools.

That's how.

As for fundamental skills, education is widely regarded as one of the least challenging college curriculums, not that it matters here.

Please tell me more about which course of study is more challenging between Business and Education. :cool:

Let's do it via PM, if you're willing.

INJoker
10-06-2012, 08:57
Yet every time objective standards are imposed on teachers they object.

You know the saying.....if you can't measure it you can't improve it.

Success in evaluating educators comes in hybrid form.

1. Define the right outcomes
2. Define the best practices that generate those outcomes
3. Evaluate based on the adherence to best practices

This is a bit backward from what you and I are used to in sales, because ultimately our number is what gets us paid. In teaching, it doesn't work like that for the reasons I mentioned above. In teaching, using statistically-proven best practices is much more likely to generate improvements than creating incentives purely focused on the end-state objective.

You cannot set arbitrary values to learning. Saying, "Every student must improve his/her Math scores by 10% this academic year," is unfair to the students and the teachers. Not all students have that bandwidth. You're setting them both up to fail.

Have you ever taken the time to read through your state standards for education in primary or secondary schools? They're published on your state's DoE website.

It may be worth your time.

certifiedfunds
10-06-2012, 09:27
Success in evaluating educators comes in hybrid form.

1. Define the right outcomes
2. Define the best practices that generate those outcomes
3. Evaluate based on the adherence to best practices

This is a bit backward from what you and I are used to in sales, because ultimately our number is what gets us paid. In teaching, it doesn't work like that for the reasons I mentioned above. In teaching, using statistically-proven best practices is much more likely to generate improvements than creating incentives purely focused on the end-state objective.

You cannot set arbitrary values to learning. Saying, "Every student must improve his/her Math scores by 10% this academic year," is unfair to the students and the teachers. Not all students have that bandwidth. You're setting them both up to fail.

Have you ever taken the time to read through your state standards for education in primary or secondary schools? They're published on your state's DoE website.

It may be worth your time.

That sounds like what they're doing now.

At some point a metric must apply though.

Overlay it to sales. Outcome is defined. Often best practices are defined. However still accountable to a measurable result.

Brucev
10-06-2012, 09:41
Yet every time objective standards are imposed on teachers they object.

You know the saying.....if you can't measure it you can't improve it.

So... given your great concern for excellence in education, when will you be graduating and entering the class room to bring your outstanding job skills and expertise to the process of educating the future of America? Get qualified... get in the classroom and show everyone what you can do! Get with it! Be the man you say everyone in education should be! Man up and face the challenge! Keep everyone posted on your day to day success as you put into action all the knowledge and insight you claim to possess. Surely you are not simply standing around sipping coffee and complaining... are you?

Rabbi
10-06-2012, 09:50
Please tell me more about which course of study is more challenging between Business and Education. :cool:

Let's do it via PM, if you're willing.

See, here is the problem. You honestly believe that there is equivalence.

Again, A masters of education is the running joke of the graduate degree world. That is not my joke. It just is. It is generally considered among the easiest to obtain graduate degrees.

An MBA is not.

I am not sure why you are planting your flag on this hill but oh well.

certifiedfunds
10-06-2012, 10:03
So... given your great concern for excellence in education, when will you be graduating and entering the class room to bring your outstanding job skills and expertise to the process of educating the future of America? Get qualified... get in the classroom and show everyone what you can do! Get with it! Be the man you say everyone in education should be! Man up and face the challenge! Keep everyone posted on your day to day success as you put into action all the knowledge and insight you claim to possess. Surely you are not simply standing around sipping coffee and complaining... are you?

Silly post. I'm dissatisfied with the service I receive at wal mart too. Should I change careers and become an associate?

I put my kids in private schools. I'm quite pleased.

I also endowed a scholarship at the private high school I attended.

That's how I choose to address the problem.

Still not sure what your point is.

ilgunguygt
10-06-2012, 10:22
The point of the data I provided is to illustrate that a 20-year-old kid with a 2-year Associate's Degree in Nursing will make more in his/her first year of full-time employment than the average Indiana public school teacher will after his/her 20th year of service with a Bachelor's degree - the minimum degree level required to teach in Indiana.

.

Yeah, but this is about the chicago teachers. They were already overpaid!!!

Like I said earlier in this thread, those teachers already made more than TWICE what the teachers make in the rest of the state. While making TWICE as much money they have LESS THAN HALF as many students per teacher.

While you may feel sorry for them, no one else here in IL does. There was ZERO sympathy for them here in downstate IL, even with the union teachers we have. In fact, there was a lot of anger when some of them found out that after 5 years they were making 30K a year and those teachers were making about 75K with the same experience, and wanted a 17% raise, all the while having a 10:1 student to teacher ratio.

CAcop
10-06-2012, 11:46
See, here is the problem. You honestly believe that there is equivalence.

Again, A masters of education is the running joke of the graduate degree world. That is not my joke. It just is. It is generally considered among the easiest to obtain graduate degrees.

An MBA is not.

I am not sure why you are planting your flag on this hill but oh well.

Speaking of jokes in universities, my brother in law told me about a feud between physics and engineering. Aparently he said the engineers do not think physics is a real science. Naturally the physics geeks think otherwise.

It took me by surprise but then he explained the engineer's reasoning and it kind of made sense.

Everywhere you go there are people measuring their Johnsons and comparing notes.

Rabbi
10-06-2012, 11:49
Speaking of jokes in universities, my brother in law told me about a feud between physics and engineering. Aparently he said the engineers do not think physics is a real science. Naturally the physics geeks think otherwise.

It took me by surprise but then he explained the engineer's reasoning and it kind of made sense.

Everywhere you go there are people measuring their Johnsons and comparing notes.

Outside of being jovial, there is no real engineer that thinks physics is not a "real science"

Either you didnt understand the conversation or didnt get the sarcasm. It is that simple.

certifiedfunds
10-06-2012, 12:06
Speaking of jokes in universities, my brother in law told me about a feud between physics and engineering. Aparently he said the engineers do not think physics is a real science. Naturally the physics geeks think otherwise.

It took me by surprise but then he explained the engineer's reasoning and it kind of made sense.

Everywhere you go there are people measuring their Johnsons and comparing notes.

Physics is a real science. Engineering is applied science.


Fundamentally, all science is physics. At any university is is among the most challenging of fields.

Flying-Dutchman
10-06-2012, 14:49
Imagine if the narrative of the Chicago Public School teachers' strike had been "Give us the 17% raise we asked for, and we'll double the number of kids graduating high school reading at their grade level" or "we'll cut the dropout rate by 50%."

Imagine a real negotiation, instead of a bunch of people demanding more just because "they deserve it."
Not possible. You cannot teach those unable or unwilling to learn no matter how much money you spend.

First, teachers need to dress in a professional way for professional pay.

Second, we need to turn the tables; make a public education a privilege not an obligation.

Test out the kids early on and send those with low aptitude to trade school.

Anyone with a bad attitude gets banned from school completely to prevent disruptions in the classroom.

The age of reason is 7 not 18.

CAcop
10-06-2012, 15:30
Outside of being jovial, there is no real engineer that thinks physics is not a "real science"

Either you didnt understand the conversation or didnt get the sarcasm. It is that simple.

I at first thought it was a joke and my brother in law said that they were in fact serious about it. I did not grill him on it because I did not really care that much other than, "Gee, that's interesting."

Apparently the gripe that engineers have with physics people is the lack of a product so to speak. Much of it is theoretical and intangible.

For instance. The big bang theory. It is a theory. Whereas an engineer can say look at what I built.

As to where he heard it and why I suppose I could ask him but I do not care. My guess is that in these tight budget times each discipline on campus is looking to get their slice of the ever shrinking budget. The engineering deparment may have wanted to boot the physics department out of the science department. Or they wanted to get my brother in law to drop physics classes in favor of theirs.

I believe my brother in law because he has been duking it out with the swells of college campuses for 15 years or so on three big campuses. When I was an undergrad I knew there were big egos to be fed on campus but it was not until my brother in law told me what goes on behind the curtain that I realized the level of pettiness and drama.

I also beleive it because everybody thinks or wants their Johnson to be bigger than the next guy's. If not the biggest then theirs is the best. Most people, including very smart people, have not matured beyond 8th or 9th grade. Take a look around here. I have seen people here argue the following degrees are the hardest: law, medicine, physics, engineering, CS, IT, education, and accounting. They all can't be right, yet they insist they are.

Rabbi
10-06-2012, 15:39
I at first thought it was a joke and my brother in law said that they were in fact serious about it. I did not grill him on it because I did not really care that much other than, "Gee, that's interesting."

Apparently the gripe that engineers have with physics people is the lack of a product so to speak. Much of it is theoretical and intangible.

For instance. The big bang theory. It is a theory. Whereas an engineer can say look at what I built.

As to where he heard it and why I suppose I could ask him but I do not care. My guess is that in these tight budget times each discipline on campus is looking to get their slice of the ever shrinking budget. The engineering deparment may have wanted to boot the physics department out of the science department. Or they wanted to get my brother in law to drop physics classes in favor of theirs.

I believe my brother in law because he has been duking it out with the swells of college campuses for 15 years or so on three big campuses. When I was an undergrad I knew there were big egos to be fed on campus but it was not until my brother in law told me what goes on behind the curtain that I realized the level of pettiness and drama.

I also beleive it because everybody thinks or wants their Johnson to be bigger than the next guy's. If not the biggest then theirs is the best. Most people, including very smart people, have not matured beyond 8th or 9th grade. Take a look around here. I have seen people here argue the following degrees are the hardest: law, medicine, physics, engineering, CS, IT, education, and accounting. They all can't be right, yet they insist they are.

No, there is no way to be kind about this. You dont know what you are talking about or again, you didnt understand the conversation.

There is nothing you can say, there is no argument that can overcome that at this point. What you just posted is nonsense. You dont know what the word "science" means.

To put it into context, what you have done here in this thread, is similar to reading a book in a language you dont understand, at all, then insisting on what the book was about to someone who actually knows that language.

Flying-Dutchman
10-06-2012, 16:04
The way to negotiate with public school teachers is by switching some subjects to internet teaching.

All professions have been turned upside down by the internet, why not public school teachers?

1 Indian in Bangalore could teach our entire student body Calculus 1. It is all about efficiency.

Public schools are ripe for an internet takeover.

CAcop
10-06-2012, 17:04
No, there is no way to be kind about this. You dont know what you are talking about or again, you didnt understand the conversation.

There is nothing you can say, there is no argument that can overcome that at this point. What you just posted is nonsense. You dont know what the word "science" means.

To put it into context, what you have done here in this thread, is similar to reading a book in a language you dont understand, at all, then insisting on what the book was about to someone who actually knows that language.

Ok, whatever you say. I was pretty blunt with my brother in law about how I always thought of physics being a science. He explained to me the position of the engineers. I didn't really care since I am not an engineer or a physist therefore I do not have a dog in this fight. My brother in law I suspect didn't really care either since he has to help the chancellor keep the school running and not get involved in pissing contests except to tell people to knock it off.

Maybe my brother in law did not get that it was a joke and passed it onto me. He is one of those guys running numbers all day and forgets that there is more to life than numbers.

Rabbi if you want to be a dick about it go ahead. I really could care less what you think of me. No wonder your first wife left you.

Rabbi
10-06-2012, 17:37
Ok, whatever you say. I was pretty blunt with my brother in law about how I always thought of physics being a science. He explained to me the position of the engineers. I didn't really care since I am not an engineer or a physist therefore I do not have a dog in this fight. My brother in law I suspect didn't really care either since he has to help the chancellor keep the school running and not get involved in pissing contests except to tell people to knock it off.

Maybe my brother in law did not get that it was a joke and passed it onto me. He is one of those guys running numbers all day and forgets that there is more to life than numbers.

Rabbi if you want to be a dick about it go ahead. I really could care less what you think of me. No wonder your first wife left you.

1. In spite of your feelings, you are still wrong, and so is anyone who told you what you are passing on. If you would like to be right, I tried it nice, and you still didnt get it. You asserted your wrongness again.

2. My first wife did not "leave me." It was a very mutual split. I have been honest about mistakes I made, dont confuse that with "left me." However, I must have really hurt your feelings for you to lash out like that. How old are you? Do you feel like I stuffed you in a school locker or gave you a swirley?


Youre a cop. I assume you have worked patrol. Did you (of course, it is common) see someone, with your own eyes, do something that you have a lot of training to know is against the law?...then when you confront them about it, they lie to you or tell you someone said it was OK, start dropping names...or worse, start talking BS about what the law is?

You are being that guy about this subject.

CAcop
10-06-2012, 18:48
1. In spite of your feelings, you are still wrong, and so is anyone who told you what you are passing on. If you would like to be right, I tried it nice, and you still didnt get it. You asserted your wrongness again.

2. My first wife did not "leave me." It was a very mutual split. I have been honest about mistakes I made, dont confuse that with "left me." However, I must have really hurt your feelings for you to lash out like that. How old are you? Do you feel like I stuffed you in a school locker or gave you a swirley?


Youre a cop. I assume you have worked patrol. Did you (of course, it is common) see someone, with your own eyes, do something that you have a lot of training to know is against the law?...then when you confront them about it, they lie to you or tell you someone said it was OK, start dropping names...or worse, start talking BS about what the law is?

You are being that guy about this subject.

Just passing on a story my brother in law told me. He is in a position to know. I trust him because I know him personally. I do not know you.

Rabbi
10-06-2012, 18:55
Just passing on a story my brother in law told me. He is in a position to know. I trust him because I know him personally. I do not know you.

He is wrong and you dont know any better (or again, you did not understand the conversation)

Outside of an anomaly, there are no real engineers who would not consider physics a science. To even think that is a possibilty is like asserting 1+1=puppy.

That is what you are asserting. It is that egregious. In frank terms it is bold stupidity. From the sounds of your story, you have taken the wizzing match between the physics department and the engineering department at a college, that has been filtered through the eyes of an administrator to mean something it doesnt. You are wrong. There is no middle ground.

CAcop
10-06-2012, 21:31
He is wrong and you dont know any better (or again, you did not understand the conversation)

Outside of an anomaly, there are no real engineers who would not consider physics a science. To even think that is a possibilty is like asserting 1+1=puppy.

That is what you are asserting. It is that egregious. In frank terms it is bold stupidity. From the sounds of your story, you have taken the wizzing match between the physics department and the engineering department at a college, that has been filtered through the eyes of an administrator to mean something it doesnt. You are wrong. There is no middle ground.

Had I known I was going to have to write a report a couple of weeks after the fact I would have taken notes. Here is the conversation as I remember it.

I was essentially making small talk with my brother in law asking how his relatively new job has been going. I asked him because his old job was essentially the same thing but over time they added on a second department under him. Admissions and Registrar is a bit much.

He said things were going well he was just having to deal with some egos.

I responded with, "Pretty much the same as before. Are budget cuts the problem?" I asked him this because at his last two universities that was a huge part of his problems.

He said budgeting wasn't a problem at this school. (I had heard that before from my sister about this school but I wanted to hear it from him.) He said it was just egos.

I asked him for an example and then he got my attention with, "The engineering department doesn't think physics is a real science."

This got my attention because I had always thought of physics as being a science. I pretty much said, "What do you mean it isn't a science?"

He replied "Engineers don't think physics is a scinece because it is theoretical and engineering is tangible."

I said, "You mean like the Big Bang Theory vs. designing a bridge?"

He said, "Exactly."

We then moved onto lighter topics like his commute to and from work or something else completely forgetable. Had I known I was going to get grilled I would have asked him who told him this, when, why, etc. For all I know the head of the engineering department might hold a grudge against the head of the physics department.

That conversation seems pretty simple and straightforward to me. If you have a problem with it take it up with my brother in law, not me. He has 15 years as the registrar or admissions or both at three universities in CA. Smallest 25,000 and the largest 39,000. Prior to that he was the student trustee for the CSU system as an undergrad. Until you can match his credentials or tell me where he is wrong, FOAD.

certifiedfunds
10-06-2012, 22:00
My physics professor was a geophysicist. I have a handful of geologists in my family. One day I asked him what was the difference between a geologist and a geophysicist. He paused in the very deep, reflectful way he was known for and said, "They do it very well."

I suspect CACop's convo was along those lines.

devildog2067
10-06-2012, 22:47
I at first thought it was a joke and my brother in law said that they were in fact serious about it.

There does not exist a single engineer on the surface of the entire planet who honestly believes that physics is not a "real" science. Not one.

Engineering and physics are so similar that many of the courses are actually cross-listed.

Rabbi
10-07-2012, 00:00
Had I known I was going to have to write a report a couple of weeks after the fact I would have taken notes. Here is the conversation as I remember it.

I was essentially making small talk with my brother in law asking how his relatively new job has been going. I asked him because his old job was essentially the same thing but over time they added on a second department under him. Admissions and Registrar is a bit much.

He said things were going well he was just having to deal with some egos.

I responded with, "Pretty much the same as before. Are budget cuts the problem?" I asked him this because at his last two universities that was a huge part of his problems.

He said budgeting wasn't a problem at this school. (I had heard that before from my sister about this school but I wanted to hear it from him.) He said it was just egos.

I asked him for an example and then he got my attention with, "The engineering department doesn't think physics is a real science."

This got my attention because I had always thought of physics as being a science. I pretty much said, "What do you mean it isn't a science?"

He replied "Engineers don't think physics is a scinece because it is theoretical and engineering is tangible."

I said, "You mean like the Big Bang Theory vs. designing a bridge?"

He said, "Exactly."

We then moved onto lighter topics like his commute to and from work or something else completely forgetable. Had I known I was going to get grilled I would have asked him who told him this, when, why, etc. For all I know the head of the engineering department might hold a grudge against the head of the physics department.

That conversation seems pretty simple and straightforward to me. If you have a problem with it take it up with my brother in law, not me. He has 15 years as the registrar or admissions or both at three universities in CA. Smallest 25,000 and the largest 39,000. Prior to that he was the student trustee for the CSU system as an undergrad. Until you can match his credentials or tell me where he is wrong, FOAD.


Your brother in law is an idiot then...and HE didnt understand the situation.

...and you still dont.

I dont know how else to get the point across to you. With each post, you only assure everyone that you dont have the slightest clue. Again, you are speaking a language you dont understand and relating information from someone who did not speak that language either....To me, and I speak that language.

You are hanging your hat on what a non engineer or physicist said about engineers and physicists. You are a blithering idiot.

Oh, and BTW, my creds in physics and engineering are better than his. He has none. I have a collection.

NEOH212
10-07-2012, 00:40
But teachers:

1. Work harder than you do.
2. Buy all the supplies for the school.
3. Teach criminals.
4. Teach kids whose parents are criminals.
5. Teach in a war zone.
6. Teach kids who don't want to learn.
7. Teach kids who have parents who don't care.
8. Work all through the summer.
9. Grade papers at night.

Fire the all. It's not like there would be any change in the quality of education either way.

I'd be willing to bet that if we had some non-union teachers, things would be alot different and the kids would actually learn something.

Just sayin....:whistling:

NEOH212
10-07-2012, 00:40
Union whiners gonna whine.

:rofl:

NEOH212
10-07-2012, 00:46
:crying: Boo Hoo! Boo Hoo! :crying:


:crying: I'm in a union. I want something for nothing. Boo Hoo! I want $30 an hour to do a $15 per hour job. Boo Hoo! I want fifty weeks of vacation per year, I want cumulative sick and personal days on top of it all, I want all my medical paid for, I want, I want, I want. I dont' care what it does to the people that are paying for it. Boo Hoo! :crying:

I don't care if it's not sustainable, but I want, I want, I want and I vote for whatever person that comes along with a D in front of their name just because I want and I don't want to actually work hard for my pay.

I don't care about doing my job properly. I don't care about your children, I don't care if I slack. Who's gonna hold me accountable? I'm in a union. You can't touch me. I can do whatever I want because the union protects slackers like me. Just try and get me fired. You won't win. If anyone tries, they will just be wasting their time because I have all the taxpayer money in the world to buy me a union funded attorney and drag it out in court.

Aren't unions wonderful!

:wavey:


NOPE!

:puking:

INJoker
10-07-2012, 11:44
How did this thread derail into taking jabs at ex-wives and insulting brothers?

Rabbi
10-07-2012, 12:21
How did this thread derail into taking jabs at ex-wives and insulting brothers?

I am not worried about people insulting me. The truth is, his statements are factually incorrect.

He may be telling the truth that his brother in law said those things...but it is still utter nonsense.

It is similar to someone saying the Pope is not Catholic. Yes, it is that insane a comment. If I was that wrong about something, and getting even louder about being that wrong, I would hope someone would stop me from making such a fool out of myself.

This is not a "grey" issue. This is not Rabbi forcing his opinion on people. This is a very binary issue. It is impossible for an engineer to not recognize physics as science. To say so would be similar to claiming the word "hat" is not a word. (as you say it and spell it out while providing a functional definition of the word "hat.")

DWavs
10-07-2012, 12:59
I am not worried about people insulting me. The truth is, his statements are factually incorrect.

He may be telling the truth that his brother in law said those things...but it is still utter nonsense.

It is similar to someone saying the Pope is not Catholic. Yes, it is that insane a comment. If I was that wrong about something, and getting even louder about being that wrong, I would hope someone would stop me from making such a fool out of myself.

This is not a "grey" issue. This is not Rabbi forcing his opinion on people. This is a very binary issue. It is impossible for an engineer to not recognize physics as science. To say so would be similar to claiming the word "hat" is not a word. (as you say it and spell it out while providing a functional definition of the word "hat.")

I find it interesting that you are wholeheartedly backing up your profession when some teachers were doing the same in this thread.

Perhaps some misconceptions in education as there are in engineering, eh? ;)

Rabbi
10-07-2012, 18:08
I find it interesting that you are wholeheartedly backing up your profession when some teachers were doing the same in this thread.

Perhaps some misconceptions in education as there are in engineering, eh? ;)

No, you dont understand the issue either obviously.

This has nothing to do with feelings or emotion. This is an absolute issue. You cant make it into something else. You either understand it or you dont.

OctoberRust
10-08-2012, 06:31
Well, you quoted an entire tongue-in-cheek post and agreed with it... you not only "listened" to bull****, you swallowed it whole.



:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

http://cdn.ebaumsworld.com/picture/Earmuffs1668/Pwnd.png