What AR do I want? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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ithaca_deerslayer
10-03-2012, 21:15
$1,000 to $1,500. It will be next tax return season (coming fast, after Fall, after Christmas, then bingo! ) Price does not include scope.

I have no AR's and no experience with them. I have an .223 Interarms Mark X that likes 55gr but keyholes 62gr. I have a Saiga unconverted 16" 7.62x39. Live in the ban state of NY, so just as if the federal ban is still going on (exact same law, just never expired here). Which means most plain stuff is available, but flash suppressors and bayonet lugs have to be pre-ban, I believe. Pre-ban 30 round mags are around for money, 10 rounders are standard.

I kinda like the looks of the older M-16 style rifles. But it'd be nice if the handle came off in case I wanted to scope it. Probably be nice if the front sight came off for the same reason. But I've seen a fixed handle pre-ban that I'd consider, for the classic blac rifle style.

I don't have a specific purpose in mind. Don't need, but want. My Saiga is a good home defense gun and has a detachable side mounted scope. I've got my bolt .223 for woodcucks. A Savage 10FP .308 for playing sniper. And a couple more bolts in .308 and .30-06 for deer.

I think accuracy expectations are something like 1.5" at 100 yards would be nice (if scoped and a good day of my shooting). My Saiga will do 3.5". My 10FP I can do .75". So, over 2" would not thrill me much for this type of gun. If my expectations are unrealistic for this type of gun, I adjust them. I'm quite happy with my Saiga.

Partly I want to get an AR while I can. Not saying they will be outlawed, just saying I want one to sort of stick my nose up at any anti-gun movements. I'll find some 30 round mags for that reason, too.

Home defense use is a possible reason or use, but mainly this would just be a range gun. Not a safe queen, as I would shoot it. But looking like a Vietnam era rifle might be one preference (conflicts with scoping it, so I'm not sure).

Of course, I don't want any jams either. Hopefully as reliable as my Saiga :)

FnKev
10-03-2012, 21:28
Colt 6920 with an Aimpoint H1 and call it a day.

XDRoX
10-03-2012, 21:28
If I were you I'd just go through all the ar15 pic threads and find the one that you thinks looks the coolest and then build it.

sps
10-03-2012, 22:44
Hey Slayer,I'm a .308 guy all the way. ar-10t-fal, just never got in to 5.56/.223. Now I'm not knocking them,I just never used one much. I carried an m-14 and sometimes an m-60.
I'm getting older and softer I guess-7.62 got some recoil to it so I bought an Armalite m-15 a4 rifle. It is a flat top with a 20" barrel- all milspec. I bought the removable carry
handle and front sight for it. I am going to buy a nikon m series or p series scope that's made for .223 rifles. The rifle shoots awesome,I love this thing and it is a ball to shoot.
I already have an older armalite in .308 so I know they build quality rifles. A buddy of mine said it's almost impossible to find a used Armalite for sale so that should tell you something, nobody gets rid of them. Take a look at them .

MrMurphy
10-04-2012, 03:43
A basic AR is a 3-4 MOA rifle.

A good AR can easily be a minute gun or better with decent ammo and shooter.

the basic Colt 6920 is an excellent starting point. A LaRue or Noveske is even better but above your price point. Then again, you get what you pay for.

PAGunner
10-04-2012, 04:35
I just bought a Colt 6920MP-R, so my vote after researching it goes to Colt 6920. It is thee AR to have IMHO.

eracer
10-04-2012, 04:45
Daniel Defense DDM4V7-5.56
(http://danieldefense.com/rifles/mid-length/daniel-defense-m4-carbine-v7.html)
$1699 MSRP with removable front/rear sights

They also make a version in 6.8 SPCII, which you may want to consider for more power and increased range.

ithaca_deerslayer
10-04-2012, 06:12
A basic AR is a 3-4 MOA rifle.

A good AR can easily be a minute gun or better with decent ammo and shooter.

the basic Colt 6920 is an excellent starting point.

So what should I expect from the average Colt 6920 for accuracy?

Do these interchange .223 and 5.56 no problem? My favorite .223 ammo for my bolt is Black hills blue box 55gr soft point. Will that run good through one of these AR's?

ithaca_deerslayer
10-04-2012, 06:22
Hey Slayer,I'm a .308 guy all the way. ar-10t-fal, just never got in to 5.56/.223. Now I'm not knocking them,I just never used one much. I carried an m-14 and sometimes an m-60.
I'm getting older and softer I guess-7.62 got some recoil to it so I bought an Armalite m-15 a4 rifle. It is a flat top with a 20" barrel- all milspec. I bought the removable carry
handle and front sight for it. I am going to buy a nikon m series or p series scope that's made for .223 rifles. The rifle shoots awesome,I love this thing and it is a ball to shoot.
I already have an older armalite in .308 so I know they build quality rifles. A buddy of mine said it's almost impossible to find a used Armalite for sale so that should tell you something, nobody gets rid of them. Take a look at them .

That Armalite sounds interesting.

I'll probably let a lot of women shoot this gun, too. So the .223 fits in with that. I do NRA pistol, but sometimes we have events and include long guns for them to try. The Saiga is a hit with them, but the mag change is not intuitive on it.

I like the idea of a fixed stock, but I realize adjustable is flexible for letting other shooters try. In the end, I'll pick what I like, but was just thinking of potential uses for it, like letting newbies try it out :)

ithaca_deerslayer
10-04-2012, 06:30
Daniel Defense DDM4V7-5.56
(http://danieldefense.com/rifles/mid-length/daniel-defense-m4-carbine-v7.html)
$1699 MSRP with removable front/rear sights

They also make a version in 6.8 SPCII, which you may want to consider for more power and increased range.

If more power I'd probably go for a military style wood semi-auto in one of the .30 variety. 6.8 is probably great, but I don't want a new caliber in my house, if I can avoid it. Although maybe a 10mm someday :)

What features make the Daniel Defense desirable compared to the less expensive stuff? Asking because I really don't know much about any of these guns.

G23Adam
10-04-2012, 08:17
Go for a Colt, BCM, or Daniel Defense first. That way you know what a properly operating AR should be for subsequent purchases.

The extra money is paying for better QC and better parts to begin with.

GWG19
10-04-2012, 10:11
AR wise I have Ruger SR556, Colt 6724 and a DPMS SBR that I have a couple of different Uppers for.
The Colt 6724 will shoot sub MOA.
THE SR556 is good for 1 to 1.5 from a rest.
The DPMS is just plain fun to shoot. I run the 11 inch upper suppressed and the AR 57 upper is the 6 inch with the GemTech can on it.

TheBelly
10-04-2012, 10:27
Go for a Colt, BCM, or Daniel Defense first. That way you know what a properly operating AR should be for subsequent purchases.

The extra money is paying for better QC and better parts to begin with.

/thread

SFW
10-04-2012, 10:42
I'm a huge fan of Rock River Arms. I've had my Elite Operator for a little over a year and it shoots sub MOA all day long. I've got about 3000 rounds through the rifle without a single hiccup. Now some will scoff that RRA does not have a milspec barrel, but I think that the RRA barrel is actually better than milspec. All debate able, but they are a hell of a lot of gun for the money.

bmoore
10-04-2012, 13:44
I am a big BCM fan after buying my 14.5 inch lightweight middy. Call me a fanboy or whatever, they make quality equipment and you get what you pay for.

skeeter7
10-04-2012, 14:25
Can't go wrong with a Colt. I prefer the 6720.

scccdoc
10-04-2012, 14:41
So what should I expect from the average Colt 6920 for accuracy?

Do these interchange .223 and 5.56 no problem? My favorite .223 ammo for my bolt is Black hills blue box 55gr soft point. Will that run good through one of these AR's?

My new Colt "Sporter" is a 5.56 Nato. I shoot .223 with no problem, but I understand that a .223 chambered rifle may be dangerous with 5.56 rds shot thru it due to the more powerful rd............DOC

Gbannan
10-04-2012, 17:01
Colt.

TattooedGlock
10-04-2012, 17:22
Save $100 more. For $1600 you can pick up and LWRC which you'll love. I had one for a long time before I sold it due to needing some quick cash for another project. Stupid me.

I just replaced it with a POF which is simply amazing. But the LWRC is a really solid amazing gun in its own right.

mgentry
10-04-2012, 19:45
Sig 556

Indianashooter
10-04-2012, 19:51
I like my Smith AR I bought just about four years ago. Great rifle, has shot everything I've put through it.

combatmedic78
10-04-2012, 21:48
I love my PWS. I am only waiting for my 1-6x optic to come for it.

TangoFoxtrot
10-05-2012, 02:57
OP do your research. You have plenty of time to make a wise decision.

larson1122
10-05-2012, 03:31
Do these interchange .223 and 5.56 no problem?

Yep, the 6920 is good to go for both 5.56 and .223. If your rifle is chambered for 5.56, you can shoot both 5.56 and .223, but it is not recommended to shoot 5.56 in a rifle chambered for .223.

ETA: forgot to add another thumbs up vote for the Colt. Anything from Colt, BCM, DD, etc. would serve you quite well.

M&P15T
10-05-2012, 05:29
HEY OP!!!!

If you like the M16 look, check out these.
http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/rifles/index.php

ithaca_deerslayer
10-05-2012, 05:50
HEY OP!!!!

If you like the M16 look, check out these.
http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/rifles/index.php

They look cool. Do have one of them?

ithaca_deerslayer
10-05-2012, 05:54
Yep, the 6920 is good to go for both 5.56 and .223. If your rifle is chambered for 5.56, you can shoot both 5.56 and .223, but it is not recommended to shoot 5.56 in a rifle chambered for .223.

ETA: forgot to add another thumbs up vote for the Colt. Anything from Colt, BCM, DD, etc. would serve you quite well.

I've shot some 5.56 in my bolt .223. Don't know if I should have, but didn't notice any problems.

What rate of twist is best in an AR? Seems lots of people run heavy bullets, such as for deer. My bolt doesn't stabilize the heavies.

cooden
10-05-2012, 16:04
If there is a Dicks Sporting Goods near you, go there and buy the Troy AR that Troy is making exclusively for Dicks. It's $1099.99 and if you bought every part separate and tried to build it, you would spend somewhere between $1300-$1400. Best part is that Dicks usually has $100 off $1000+ for rifles. Then sign up for the Dicks card and get 10% off (another $100). You can get it for $900 BEFORE tax!! I bought one yesterday to add to my collection, paid $972 with tax. This rifle is a steal at that price!

SCSU74
10-05-2012, 16:20
So what should I expect from the average Colt 6920 for accuracy?

Do these interchange .223 and 5.56 no problem? My favorite .223 ammo for my bolt is Black hills blue box 55gr soft point. Will that run good through one of these AR's?

Shooting 55g you'd probably do best with 1/8 or 1/9 twist. The colt uses 1/7 and does better with heavier weights. My 6920 hates 55g past 50 yds


Sent from my iPhone... which probably auto-corrected something wrong

ithaca_deerslayer
10-05-2012, 17:22
Shooting 55g you'd probably do best with 1/8 or 1/9 twist. The colt uses 1/7 and does better with heavier weights. My 6920 hates 55g past 50 yds


Sent from my iPhone... which probably auto-corrected something wrong

Arggh!

Thanks for that info. I'd hate to have to use different ammo in both my .223's.

Are soft points ok in an AR? Do they cycle ok? Dirty the action up, or perhaps the barrel?

I suppose I could keep two different types of ammo, but that isn't something I want to do. I already have 16 different calibers/gauges :)

WoodenPlank
10-05-2012, 17:38
Arggh!

Thanks for that info. I'd hate to have to use different ammo in both my .223's.

Are soft points ok in an AR? Do they cycle ok? Dirty the action up, or perhaps the barrel?

I suppose I could keep two different types of ammo, but that isn't something I want to do. I already have 16 different calibers/gauges :)

They can leave lead fouling on the feed ramps, but that's easy to clean.

Meanwhile, I have had no less than TWO 14.5" Colt barrels (pinned/welded, of course) that grouped just fine with 55 grain ammo at 100 yards using an Aimpoint M2. Some guns will do fine, some will not.

larson1122
10-06-2012, 05:16
Arggh!

Thanks for that info. I'd hate to have to use different ammo in both my .223's.

Are soft points ok in an AR? Do they cycle ok? Dirty the action up, or perhaps the barrel?

I suppose I could keep two different types of ammo, but that isn't something I want to do. I already have 16 different calibers/gauges :)

You could also take a look at the Colt 6721. They are available with the 1/9 twist rate if that is what you would prefer for the lighter bullets. I own one and it has been great for me so far. The difference between a 6721 and the 6920 is the slightly heavier HBAR barrel on the 6721. Since you mention this would mainly be used as a range gun, a few extra ounces isn't a huge deal.

faawrenchbndr
10-06-2012, 06:20
a basic ar is a 3-4 moa rifle.

A good ar can easily be a minute gun or better with decent ammo and shooter.

The basic colt 6920 is an excellent starting point. A larue or noveske is even better but above your price point. Then again, you get what you pay for.

...........+1

ithaca_deerslayer
10-06-2012, 06:34
You could also take a look at the Colt 6721. They are available with the 1/9 twist rate if that is what you would prefer for the lighter bullets. I own one and it has been great for me so far. The difference between a 6721 and the 6920 is the slightly heavier HBAR barrel on the 6721. Since you mention this would mainly be used as a range gun, a few extra ounces isn't a huge deal.

What is the HBAR barrel?

As far as I can tell, with barrels in general, Colt seems to have the 16" as 1-7" and the 20" as 1-9". Wonder why that is.

faawrenchbndr
10-06-2012, 06:40
HBAR

Heavy barrel.........not needed or recommended in my opinion.

larson1122
10-06-2012, 07:13
What is the HBAR barrel?

As far as I can tell, with barrels in general, Colt seems to have the 16" as 1-7" and the 20" as 1-9". Wonder why that is.

There's a few pictures here that might help show the difference: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=41436

HBAR

Heavy barrel.........not needed or recommended in my opinion.

I agree, it is not a necessity, just thought I would throw another option out there to consider. The OP mentioned maybe adding a scope and the HBAR would give a slight increase in accuracy, even though that increase isn't exactly substantial.

ithaca_deerslayer
10-06-2012, 10:20
There's a few pictures here that might help show the difference: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=41436



I agree, it is not a necessity, just thought I would throw another option out there to consider. The OP mentioned maybe adding a scope and the HBAR would give a slight increase in accuracy, even though that increase isn't exactly substantial.

That's a great short thread. Pictures of the barrels and the slight accuracy advantage of the given HBAR. Also mention of 1-9" not stabilizing the heavy bullets well.

hollowpoint40
10-08-2012, 16:49
Love my M&P


Sent from my iPhone

ithaca_deerslayer
10-08-2012, 18:41
Love my M&P

What kind of ammo does it like and what group sizes are you getting?

avenues165
10-08-2012, 22:29
This has not been thrown out yet and would be an option if you are looking for accuracy - a stainless steel barrel.

An SS barrel will not be as durable as a chrome-lined barrel, but they are generally more accurate. You could do a few things:

1. Buy a BCM lower and a BCM SS410 stainless upper. You could come in at the higher end of your budget with a very accurate and high quality rifle.

2. The Larue predatAR is an AR with a thinner profile SS barrel. It would run higher than your budget but it is a very fine rifle and should get you 1.5moa groups and smaller. Some report sub-moa groups if the barrel isn't allowed to heat up.

3. Buy a complete lower receiver and have Rainier arms build you an upper. They have a lot of high quality components and many, many folks say their customer service is second to none.

I would recommend that if you go with a SS barrel that you go either 1:7 or 1:8 with a Wylde chamber or comparable chamber. They will shoot both 5.56mm and .223 rem. A barrel with a 1:8 twist should give you the ability to shoot up to ~77 grains. It will also shoot 55 grain bullets just fine. In fact, a 1:7 barrel should shoot 55 grain bullets just fine, IMHO.

With the right SS barrel you wouldn't add a lot of weight and would have one heck of a shooter for an semi-automatic rifle. But, it is not optimal for mag dump sessions. A chrome-lined barrel will hold up longer.

ithaca_deerslayer
10-09-2012, 06:03
Avenues, do you think most run of the mill 1 in 7" barrels will handle 55gr ok? Or just the particlar stainless ones you mention?

I don't want to be stuck on trying to match the load and accuracy my bolt shoots, but just thought it would be nice :)

avenues165
10-09-2012, 20:21
Avenues, do you think most run of the mill 1 in 7" barrels will handle 55gr ok? Or just the particlar stainless ones you mention?

I don't want to be stuck on trying to match the load and accuracy my bolt shoots, but just thought it would be nice :)

In theory a 1:7 twist should be fine for 55gr bullets.

I suggest you do some research. In other forums there have been tests performed on 1:7 and 1:9 barrels side by side with 55gr loads. I think you would be fine with a 1:7 from a quality manufacturer to shoot 55gr bullets. But don't take it from me, check out some side by side testing to see what you think. There are resources that can tell you the optimum bullet weights with each twist. Some folks swear that 1:7 will not be optimal for 55gr bullets.

FWIW, I am going to be purchasing a 16" recon-style upper with an SS barrel once funds are available. I know I will be shooting from ~50grs to ~77grs through it. I will be using either a 1:7 or 1:8 twist.

WoodenPlank
10-09-2012, 20:32
Avenues, do you think most run of the mill 1 in 7" barrels will handle 55gr ok? Or just the particlar stainless ones you mention?

I don't want to be stuck on trying to match the load and accuracy my bolt shoots, but just thought it would be nice :)

In MY experience, every 1/7 barrel I have had has given between acceptable (2-3 MOA) and fantastic (1.5 or less MOA) accuracy from 16" or less barrels out to 100 yards. A lot of this, of course, depends on individual shooter and optic being used, as well as individual barrels. In most cases, you won't be sure of what YOUR barrel will do until you go out and try it.

Hour13
10-09-2012, 20:45
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-M16-A4-AR15-Bravo-Company-carbine-rifle-s/146.htm

HWA GLOCKER
10-09-2012, 20:55
Rra!!!

TattooedGlock
10-10-2012, 05:01
...none, now that I bought my POF 415! :)

ithaca_deerslayer
10-10-2012, 05:40
I suggest you do some research.


I thought this thread was my research :)

Eventually, l'll get a couple guys I know to crack open their safes and let me dirty up their guns. After hunting season. So it will probably be a mid-winter test drive of what they've.

We'll see if my want of an AR lasts till then.

ithaca_deerslayer
10-10-2012, 05:43
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-M16-A4-AR15-Bravo-Company-carbine-rifle-s/146.htm

You suppose that is a 20" barrel, fixed front sight, 1 in 9" twist? How much does it cost generally?

That configuration, old school, but with detachable handle, is catching my imagination.

Hour13
10-10-2012, 06:28
You suppose that is a 20" barrel, fixed front sight, 1 in 9" twist? How much does it cost generally?

That configuration, old school, but with detachable handle, is catching my imagination.

I though you might like that.
:wavey:

That is a 20", in a 1/7 twist. It should run your lighter quality ammo just fine out to 200yds. For distances past that, load it up with some heavier BTHPs, and it aughta be a tack-driver.

Don't know what the price is, you'd have to contact BCM. But I'd imagine that set-up will probably fall in around $1,200.

..

arushus
10-10-2012, 12:02
If your budget is to $1500, my choice would be Daniel defense M4. They have excellent QC. Completely mil-spec, and then some. Cold hammer forged barrels, and free float rails that are among the best available, IMO. Basically with the DD youre getting all the bells and whistles that you would have to buy aftermarket if you went with the Colt. Not dissing the Colt at all, it is an EXCELLENT weapon, but you're gonna want to put a rail on it, and other stuff. So I say just go with the DD and call it a day!

ithaca_deerslayer
10-10-2012, 16:56
I though you might like that.
:wavey:

That is a 20", in a 1/7 twist. It should run your lighter quality ammo just fine out to 200yds. For distances past that, load it up with some heavier BTHPs, and it aughta be a tack-driver.

Don't know what the price is, you'd have to contact BCM. But I'd imagine that set-up will probably fall in around $1,200.

..

Hmm, now you've got my attention :)

Wonder how the quality compares to Colt.

NeverMore1701
10-10-2012, 17:04
Hmm, now you've got my attention :)

Wonder how the quality compares to Colt.

Every bit as good.

ithaca_deerslayer
10-10-2012, 17:05
If your budget is to $1500, my choice would be Daniel defense M4. They have excellent QC. Completely mil-spec, and then some. Cold hammer forged barrels, and free float rails that are among the best available, IMO. Basically with the DD youre getting all the bells and whistles that you would have to buy aftermarket if you went with the Colt. Not dissing the Colt at all, it is an EXCELLENT weapon, but you're gonna want to put a rail on it, and other stuff. So I say just go with the DD and call it a day!

Was just talking to soneone today who pretty much said the same thing about DD.

He also mentioned that NYS post-ban only allows fixed stocks. (Not sure how that relates to shotguns, I'll look the law up later, might only pertain to pistol grips).

Evidentally all the M4 looking guns in NYS stores only look like they have adjustable stocks, but are welded or glued or something, so can't be adjusted. But I assume stocks on AR's can be replaced to a different size (as long as still not adjustable).

Knowing all that makes me lean more toward the old fashioned A2 type stock.

avenues165
10-10-2012, 19:41
I thought this thread was my research :)

Eventually, l'll get a couple guys I know to crack open their safes and let me dirty up their guns. After hunting season. So it will probably be a mid-winter test drive of what they've.

We'll see if my want of an AR lasts till then.

I really wasn't trying to be a jerk:).

I personally feel weird about telling someone they'll be GTG with something when there is debate about it. I think you'll be fine with a 1:7 twist, and experience tells me you'll be fine. A 1:7 will let you shoot the heavier bullets for longer range.

It's a trade off, chrome lined is more durable, stainless steel is more accurate. If you are OK with around 2 MOA a chrome-lined is fine. If you want better, stainless will get you there.

For $1,682.00 you can get a Larue Tactical PredatAR in 16" or 18". A light weight rifle that will get you great accuracy. It has a 1:8 twist stainless barrel with a Geissele 2 stage trigger. They are really cool rifles!

ithaca_deerslayer
10-10-2012, 19:48
I really wasn't trying to be a jerk:).

I personally feel weird about telling someone they'll be GTG with something when there is debate about it. I think you'll be fine with a 1:7 twist, and experience tells me you'll be fine. A 1:7 will let you shoot the heavier bullets for longer range.

It's a trade off, chrome lined is more durable, stainless steel is more accurate. If you are OK with around 2 MOA a chrome-lined is fine. If you want better, stainless will get you there.

For $1,682.00 you can get a Larue Tactical PredatAR in 16" or 18". A light weight rifle that will get you great accuracy. It has a 1:8 twist stainless barrel with a Geissele 2 stage trigger. They are really cool rifles!

J word? Heck no. You are being most helpful and I appreciate it.

I've found over the years that GT has a high level of expertise in any area. Wanna know about sewing, I bet there are some people on GT who know all about it.

Ok, just how fragile are stainless steel barrels? Aren't some higher priced bolt all-weather hunting rifles made with them?

Also, why is stainless more accurate. Last time I shot benchrest competitions (20 years ago) I never noticed anyone using stainless. Of course, nobody was using AR's either :)

avenues165
10-10-2012, 20:45
J word? Heck no. You are being most helpful and I appreciate it.

I've found over the years that GT has a high level of expertise in any area. Wanna know about sewing, I bet there are some people on GT who know all about it.

Ok, just how fragile are stainless steel barrels? Aren't some higher priced bolt all-weather hunting rifles made with them?

Also, why is stainless more accurate. Last time I shot benchrest competitions (20 years ago) I never noticed anyone using stainless. Of course, nobody was using AR's either :)

I must be clear, I am a fan of stainless-barreled ARs. But, I am not a benchrest shooter, and I will probably never shoot out a chrome-lined barrel or a stainless barrel. I am also not ex-military or tactically-knowledged. I shoot almost exclusively for fun.

Chrome lining is made by lining a barrel that is made slightly larger and the chrome fills in the extra space. While it may be a good process it is going to produce imperfections. The stainless barrels are made to spec. Some manufacturers (FN and Noveske, IIRC) use a double-thickness chrome lining. I have read many times that a Noveske chrome-lined barrel is very accurate, but I have never had experience with one.

Chrome moly barrels should be very accurate too. You could get a chrome moly barrel melonited for added durability and maintain accuracy. It seems to work for Glocks, but it is relatively new for AR15s, IIRC. I have no knowledge of how melonited barrels are holding up over the long term.

Stainless just seems to be the material used by the best barrel makers for AR15s, accuracy-wise. The military uses stainless for the 18" SPRs.

I have read of some stainless barrels showing impressive durability through torture testing. But the chrome-lined barrels are made specifically to provide added durability.

To provide any additional information about this topic would be unfair, this is the extent of my knowledge, I am a hobbyist, not an expert.

Hour13
10-10-2012, 22:11
Every bit as good.

This.

Colt is great. BCM is great, and most of my experience is with them. Their gear is fantastic, CS is top-notch, shipping is lightning quick. IMO, one of the few companies(firearms or otherwise) that delivers above and beyond the price tag.

I am open-minded, and piddle around with gear from other companies from time to time. All it ever does is reinforce my conviction that BCM is dollar for dollar, the best thing going.

...

Jeez, I sound like such a fanboy dweeb.
:rofl:

ithaca_deerslayer
10-13-2012, 18:20
I got to shoot an AR-15 M4 style and an AR-15 A2 style today.

Hated the M4. It had a red dot but wasn't very accurate at all (not as accurate as my Saiga). I won't say the brand as I don't want to crap talk any particular brand. Owner has tried a variety of ammo, and it just isn't better than 5" groups at 100 yards with any of them.

But aside from that, seems too small to me, don't like the tube feel of a collapsable stock tube. Don't like the short hand guard. Even started to burn my finger because I shoot with my hand far forward and it was touching the barrel.

But the A2 I loved. It was a Colt with a Bushmaster stainless 16" heavy barrel using the the full length A2 guard, full length sight radius, too, I believe. He said everything is exactly like the original just that the barrel is shorter. Supposedly Bushmaster made those barrels for the A2, not sure if that specific type fits the M4 (I don't know about this stuff). Fixed handle, and what I assume are the standard AR iron sights, rear peep, and front post in the middle of a front curving v type pair of blades. I found the blades help to center the front sight inside the peep. I shot 1" groups at 50 yards. A lot better, by far, than what I was able to do with the M4 and its red dot.

I don't want to get caught up in the accuracy differences. I just really liked the feel of the A2. A lot less recoil, better fit, even seemed a smoother action.

Yeah I know, it is just a sample of 2. But gives me some ideas of what I like and don't like between the configurations. Please keep in mind that these opinions are just based on my own range preferences. There are real world uses for these guns that could show me different priorities and purposes to consider.

Too bad the A2 was firmly "not for sale" :rofl:

Oh, no jams :)

Hour13
10-13-2012, 22:26
Awesome, glad you got to try some out. Best way to get a feel for what suits you BEFORE you blow a stack of cash, lol.

:thumbsup:

WoodenPlank
10-13-2012, 22:32
I got to shoot an AR-15 M4 style and an AR-15 A2 style today.

Hated the M4. It had a red dot but wasn't very accurate at all (not as accurate as my Saiga). I won't say the brand as I don't want to crap talk any particular brand. Owner has tried a variety of ammo, and it just isn't better than 5" groups at 100 yards with any of them.

But aside from that, seems too small to me, don't like the tube feel of a collapsable stock tube. Don't like the short hand guard. Even started to burn my finger because I shoot with my hand far forward and it was touching the barrel.

But the A2 I loved. It was a Colt with a Bushmaster stainless 16" heavy barrel using the the full length A2 guard, full length sight radius, too, I believe. He said everything is exactly like the original just that the barrel is shorter. Supposedly Bushmaster made those barrels for the A2, not sure if that specific type fits the M4 (I don't know about this stuff). Fixed handle, and what I assume are the standard AR iron sights, rear peep, and front post in the middle of a front curving v type pair of blades. I found the blades help to center the front sight inside the peep. I shot 1" groups at 50 yards. A lot better, by far, than what I was able to do with the M4 and its red dot.

I don't want to get caught up in the accuracy differences. I just really liked the feel of the A2. A lot less recoil, better fit, even seemed a smoother action.

Yeah I know, it is just a sample of 2. But gives me some ideas of what I like and don't like between the configurations. Please keep in mind that these opinions are just based on my own range preferences. There are real world uses for these guns that could show me different priorities and purposes to consider.

Too bad the A2 was firmly "not for sale" :rofl:

Oh, no jams :)

Bear in mind, the 16" with rifle length gas system is what is known as a "dissipator". Dissipators can have gas issues which will make them unreliable. However, several companies offer a "mock dissipator" which is a carbine or midlength gas system hidden under the rifle length handguard, with an A-frame front sight pinned in place in the normal rifle position. You get the handguard and sight radius of an M16 with the better function of a midlength or carbine gas system, all on a more compact 16" barrel.

avenues165
10-13-2012, 22:47
You could put together an 18" SS barreled AR with a rifle-length gas system and a fixed A2 stock. There are some really nice 18" rifle length gas uppers out there. BCM makes some that I covet sooo much. A rifle length gas system should be a soft shooter, and even a mid weight profile would shoot very nice groups. BCM SS410 barreled uppers are known for shooting subMOA groups with the right trigger, optic, and ammo. They'll shoot both 5.56 and .223, they're well priced, and they're high quality.

ithaca_deerslayer
10-14-2012, 06:37
Bear in mind, the 16" with rifle length gas system is what is known as a "dissipator". Dissipators can have gas issues which will make them unreliable. However, several companies offer a "mock dissipator" which is a carbine or midlength gas system hidden under the rifle length handguard, with an A-frame front sight pinned in place in the normal rifle position. You get the handguard and sight radius of an M16 with the better function of a midlength or carbine gas system, all on a more compact 16" barrel.

Wow, I hadn't known that. Reliability is certainly something I want. What type of gas issues are dissipators known for?

WoodenPlank
10-14-2012, 06:44
Wow, I hadn't known that. Reliability is certainly something I want. What type of gas issues are dissipators known for?

Proximity of the gas port to the muzzle can lead to issues with the bolt unlocking too early (going from memory here, and I'm not fully awake yet, please forgive me if I'm wrong), which leads to extraction and feed issues. Some ran fine with a properly sized gas port and just the right carrier and buffer. Some were picky about ammo, and some ran like ass.

This is why someone came up with the mock dissipator - all the looks and advantages, but without the issues that comes with running a rifle gas system on a 16" barrel. On an 18-20" barrel, rifle gas systems should run just fine. It's only an issue on the 16" guns.

ithaca_deerslayer
10-14-2012, 06:45
You could put together an 18" SS barreled AR with a rifle-length gas system and a fixed A2 stock. There are some really nice 18" rifle length gas uppers out there. BCM makes some that I covet sooo much. A rifle length gas system should be a soft shooter, and even a mid weight profile would shoot very nice groups. BCM SS410 barreled uppers are known for shooting subMOA groups with the right trigger, optic, and ammo. They'll shoot both 5.56 and .223, they're well priced, and they're high quality.

So an 18" will have the standard rifle gas system, just like a 20? Is that generally true, or just with some 18"? (edited: already answered by WoodenPlank).

At this point of my learning, I can envision a full length rifle setup, full handguard, full stock, fixed or detachable handle, 18" or 20" barrel.

A detachable handle and 18" barrel both make sense to me. So does a heavy stainless barrel if it is noted for accuracy.

Not sure on the twist yet.

WoodenPlank
10-14-2012, 06:54
So an 18" will have the standard rifle gas system, just like a 20? Is that generally true, or just with some 18"?

At this point of my learning, I can envision a full length rifle setup, full handguard, full stock, fixed or detachable handle, 18" or 20" barrel.

A detachable handle and 18" barrel both make sense to me. So does a heavy stainless barrel if it is noted for accuracy.

Not sure on the twist yet.

Most 18" barrels are drilled for rifle length gas systems, but I'm pretty sure I have seen midlength before, too. Either should serve you well.

Twist will be determined by what types of ammo you want to shoot. If you just plan to shoot cheap 55-62 grain ammo, then 1/9 is fine, but will limit how heavy you can go. 1/8 will allow for heavier bullets (up to ~80 grain), and 1/7 will allow for that and some of the extra long projectiles (M856 tacer, >80 grain). Some folks have been unsatisfied with the accuracy of 55 grain ammo from 1/7 barrels, but it's never been an issue for me.

Also, bear in mind that there are no absolutes - every barrel is different. Some 1/9 barrels will hold nice groups with 75-77 grain ammo, and some will group more like a load of buckshot.

In my opinion, a 1/8 twist is ideal for almost any application in an AR, short of a dedicated light varming gun slinging 40-50 grain bullets. It'll handle ~50-80 grain projectiles, 70 grain Barnes TSX, and should shoot most loads with acceptable to exceptional accuracy.

ithaca_deerslayer
10-14-2012, 07:09
Most 18" barrels are drilled for rifle length gas systems, but I'm pretty sure I have seen midlength before, too. Either should serve you well.

Twist will be determined by what types of ammo you want to shoot. If you just plan to shoot cheap 55-62 grain ammo, then 1/9 is fine, but will limit how heavy you can go. 1/8 will allow for heavier bullets (up to ~80 grain), and 1/7 will allow for that and some of the extra long projectiles (M856 tacer, >80 grain). Some folks have been unsatisfied with the accuracy of 55 grain ammo from 1/7 barrels, but it's never been an issue for me.

Also, bear in mind that there are no absolutes - every barrel is different. Some 1/9 barrels will hold nice groups with 75-77 grain ammo, and some will group more like a load of buckshot.

In my opinion, a 1/8 twist is ideal for almost any application in an AR, short of a dedicated light varming gun slinging 40-50 grain bullets. It'll handle ~50-80 grain projectiles, 70 grain Barnes TSX, and should shoot most loads with acceptable to exceptional accuracy.

So, perhaps I should look for an 18" with 1/8" twist.

Where do you stand on the question of stainless vs not, and heavy vs not.

Again, keeping in mind that this mainly a range gun. Either my backyard range, and some varmits, or gunclub ranges and showing off my gun's accuracy :)

Probably not competitions, but maybe down the road if I think I'm doing well and have time on my hands, and if I want to learn more about rifle shooting.

Hone defense use too, but not buying it specifically for that purpose :)

WoodenPlank
10-14-2012, 08:35
So, perhaps I should look for an 18" with 1/8" twist.

Where do you stand on the question of stainless vs not, and heavy vs not.

Again, keeping in mind that this mainly a range gun. Either my backyard range, and some varmits, or gunclub ranges and showing off my gun's accuracy :)

Probably not competitions, but maybe down the road if I think I'm doing well and have time on my hands, and if I want to learn more about rifle shooting.

Hone defense use too, but not buying it specifically for that purpose :)

Unless it will only be shot from a bipod or rest on a bench, I would skip the bull barrel. A medium to heavy profile (better, heavy and fluted) barrel will be more than enough without adding a crazy amount of weight to the front of the gun.

If you plan to add an optic, skip the fixed front. While anything higher magnficiation than 3-4 will cause the front sight to blur out or disappear, I still don't like having a fixed sight in front of an optic.

Several companies offer good stainless barrels, and a few even offer chrome lined barrels that can rival many stainless barrels for accuracy. It all depends on budget. If cost isn't an issue(but you want to squeeze out as much accuracy as you can), I'd go with a Krieger stainless 18" in 1/7.7. For contours, I would give them a call and tell them what you are trying to do, and they can give you a solid suggestion.

ithaca_deerslayer
10-14-2012, 09:54
Unless it will only be shot from a bipod or rest on a bench, I would skip the bull barrel. A medium to heavy profile (better, heavy and fluted) barrel will be more than enough without adding a crazy amount of weight to the front of the gun.

If you plan to add an optic, skip the fixed front. While anything higher magnficiation than 3-4 will cause the front sight to blur out or disappear, I still don't like having a fixed sight in front of an optic.

Several companies offer good stainless barrels, and a few even offer chrome lined barrels that can rival many stainless barrels for accuracy. It all depends on budget. If cost isn't an issue(but you want to squeeze out as much accuracy as you can), I'd go with a Krieger stainless 18" in 1/7.7. For contours, I would give them a call and tell them what you are trying to do, and they can give you a solid suggestion.

What is contours?

I've thought about that fixed front sight in front of a scope thing. No answer but did think about it.

I'm not much into buliding things, except with wood. I like a unit all put together with few spare parts to keep track of. So, I'll probably look for some company'scsetup that is off the shelf close to what I want. Just saying how I am.

What do you think of this Armalite? Seems it should be a light trigger. How does the two-stage work? Do you feel it as two movements, or just as one lighter movement? I'll have to look that up. 20" stainless barrel. Removable handle. 1/8" twist. Says it is available in AWB format, which I think means to be legal under the assualt weapon bs that sunset for you guys but NYS still has.

http://www.armalite.com/ItemForm.aspx?item=15A4BNM&ReturnUrl=Categories.aspx?Category=8e8e5de6-5022-483e-812b-822e58014822

I don't see an 18".

As I think about this I'm leaning toward something that could either be used in CMP ( even though I've never shot that), or be iron sighted for fun from the bench, or be scoped and benched, or be a field plinker and varmit gun.

WoodenPlank
10-14-2012, 10:28
What is contours?

I've thought about that fixed front sight in front of a scope thing. No answer but did think about it.

I'm not much into buliding things, except with wood. I like a unit all put together with few spare parts to keep track of. So, I'll probably look for some company'scsetup that is off the shelf close to what I want. Just saying how I am.

What do you think of this Armalite? Seems it should be a light trigger. How does the two-stage work? Do you feel it as two movements, or just as one lighter movement? I'll have to look that up. 20" stainless barrel. Removable handle. 1/8" twist. Says it is available in AWB format, which I think means to be legal under the assualt weapon bs that sunset for you guys but NYS still has.

http://www.armalite.com/ItemForm.aspx?item=15A4BNM&ReturnUrl=Categories.aspx?Category=8e8e5de6-5022-483e-812b-822e58014822

I don't see an 18".

As I think about this I'm leaning toward something that could either be used in CMP ( even though I've never shot that), or be iron sighted for fun from the bench, or be scoped and benched, or be a field plinker and varmit gun.

If you don't want to build it yourself, then I would highly suggest looking at Bravo Company (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/AR15-Upper-Receiver-Groups-s/1.htm)'s offerings in 18 and 20 inch varieties. They offer both stainless and chrome lined bores, and multiple options for handguards or rail systems. I don't remember offhand what they offer for ban states offhand, but if you call or email them, I am sure they will get back to you with an answer.

For triggers, look at Geissele. $180 and up, but probably the best AR-15 and AR-10 triggers in the world now.

ithaca_deerslayer
10-14-2012, 10:40
Similar to the Armalite, is this RockRiver, national match model that looks good, too. Any opinions on this compared to the Armalite, or to the BCM link earlier in the thread?

What other national match type guns to consider?

http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=226

ithaca_deerslayer
10-14-2012, 10:42
If you don't want to build it yourself, then I would highly suggest looking at Bravo Company (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/AR15-Upper-Receiver-Groups-s/1.htm)'s offerings in 18 and 20 inch varieties. They offer both stainless and chrome lined bores, and multiple options for handguards or rail systems. I don't remember offhand what they offer for ban states offhand, but if you call or email them, I am sure they will get back to you with an answer.

For triggers, look at Geissele. $180 and up, but probably the best AR-15 and AR-10 triggers in the world now.

Ok, I'II take a look. Didn't see prices at their website yet.

WoodenPlank
10-14-2012, 10:44
Ok, I'II take a look. Didn't see prices at their website yet.

Don't see them on the Geissele or BCM website?

ithaca_deerslayer
10-14-2012, 11:01
Don't see them on the Geissele or BCM website?

The BCM rifle MSRP, on the BCM website. Don't know what Geissele is yet, a company that makes triggers?

ithaca_deerslayer
10-14-2012, 11:03
Here is what I assume is Bushmaster's version of a national match rifle
http://www.bushmaster.com/firearms/competition.asp

WoodenPlank
10-14-2012, 11:07
The BCM rifle MSRP, on the BCM website. Don't know what Geissele is yet, a company that makes triggers?

Bravo COmpany doesn't list prices for lowers or complete rifle, just uppers. You can easily buy a complete upper and complete lower, then slap them together.

As I mentioned earlier, Geissele probably make the best match and competition triggers for the AR platform out there right now.

faawrenchbndr
10-14-2012, 11:07
The BCM rifle MSRP, on the BCM website. Don't know what Geissele is yet, a company that makes triggers?

Correct,.....some say they are the best.
I prefer Timney triggers.

avenues165
10-14-2012, 14:57
You seem to be looking for a rifle that will "do it all," so to speak. If you want an 18" barrel, a really good choice, in my very humble opinion, would be one of the following:

1. Larue PredatAR 18" - Lightweight, lightweight profile barrel, accuracy will be very good. It is a lightweight profile barrel, so accuracy may drop off a little if the barrel gets hot. How much if at all, I can't say.

2. Larue PredatOBR 18" - Hybrid of the PredatAR and the OBR, which is a heavier rifle more suited for precision shooting. The PredatOBR will have a heavier profile barrel, so it should maintain more accuracy with a hot barrel.

3. A lower of your choice with a BCM SS410 18" upper - Find an lower that is set up the way you like (A2 stock or collapsible, two-stage trigger, etc.), and buy a BCM upper. They are mid weight profiled barrels, and I really have read many accounts of them shooting subMOA groups with the right optic, trigger, and ammo. They use the USMC SAM-R chamber, which IIRC, is very similar to a Wylde chamber. That means it will handle 5.56 and .223 rounds. If you go this route you should note that BCM sells the uppers without a BCG and charging handle. I would buy the upper with a BCG so you can have them headspace it.

Any of these set ups would allow you great accuracy, and I would be proud to show any of these set-ups off to peers:supergrin:

I personally am setting up a precision-oriented "do it all" with a Spikes lower, a SOPMOD stock, Geiselle trigger (probably a SD-E), BCM 16" SS410 barreled upper (haven't decided on handguard), and either 1-6X or 2.5-10X scope.

It is taking me a long time to gather the funds, but I know it will be worth it!!

avenues165
10-14-2012, 14:59
Correct,.....one say they are the best.
I prefer Timney triggers.

Timney triggers are very nice from what I have read. I have never had the pleasure to try one.

ithaca_deerslayer
10-14-2012, 17:47
You seem to be looking for a rifle that will "do it all," so to speak. If you want an 18" barrel, a really good choice, in my very humble opinion, would be one of the following:

1. Larue

Some pricey stuff :)
http://www.laruetactical.com/rifles

avenues165
10-14-2012, 21:32
Some pricey stuff :)
http://www.laruetactical.com/rifles

It is pricy, but really nice:supergrin:

I think the PredatAR is the best deal, considering what you get with it.

The third option I listed with a BCM upper would definitely be the cheapest. Minus optics, optic mount, and Geisele trigger I figure my rifle will come in at ~$1,300.00 (spikes standard AR trigger in it).

I don't know much about it, but Stag Arms makes a 3 gun rifle (Model 3G) that might be worth a look. Probably accurate but a little lighter than a heavy barreled rifle. I don't know who they get their SS barrels from, or if they make them in-house. Has a Geissele super 3-gun trigger, sampson handguard, 18" SS barrel with rifle-length gas system, 5.56 NATO chamber, 1/8 twist, Magpul ACS stock and MOE pistol grip, 3-gun compensator. Looks like a pretty nice set up!

ithaca_deerslayer
10-15-2012, 21:05
I've learned a lot in this thread. After shooting, and reading, I think l'm heading toward a national match rifle of some sort. I should start a new thread about that more specific interest.

Thanks all for the great input and helping me to refine my interests in an evil black rifle :) Hope to see you in the next thread if you've got opinions on national match rifles.