The Brits Explain "Gangsta" Aiming [Archive] - Glock Talk

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50 Cent
10-04-2012, 21:18
Here's an article I didn't expect :shocked:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2212899/Marine-marksman-sheds-light-gunmen-hood-unwittingly-use-known-aiming-technique.html

Lee-online
10-04-2012, 21:33
http://cdn-www.i-am-bored.com/media/30438_SideSightGunGangs.jpg

50 Cent
10-04-2012, 21:40
The Daily Mail is good for gossip, pics of celebrities in various stages of undress, scandal etc.

Gun articles...dunno - they have a ways to go before catching up with Carlson's crew over at The Daily Caller. :rofl:

Diesel McBadass
10-04-2012, 21:41
doesn't recoil when aiming gangsta style with full auto cause you to shoot yourself?

janice6
10-04-2012, 21:48
My theory of why thugs lay the gun sideways to shoot is:

They are following the "bullet hose" method of shooting. This involves shooting in the general vicinity of the target, and just pumping quantities bullets down range with the hope that one or some hit their mark. If innocents are hit it, is of no consequence to the shooter.

The recoil muzzle flip experienced by skilled shooters, pulls the muzzle up and continued shooting simply makes more holes in the air, instead of in the targeted individuals.

By laying the gun horizontally, the muzzle flip is moving the gun in a horizontal plane and putting many bullets downrange is more apt to hit something, than nothing (as when they just shoot into the air during muzzle flip).

This method may be more acceptable to thugs when shooting at a group of people rather than an individual. by spraying bullets in a horizontal plane your percentage will increase of hitting something, rather than nothing.

Thugs don't seem to care what, or who they hit, because most of the time it's more than one person they are shooting at. Shooting someone, is more important than who is hit.

More skilled shooters do not like the possibility of hitting persons and bystanders that are not involved in the altercation, and use more care in aiming.
,
Choice is: bullet hosing or precision.

I believe my luck is better against a bullet hose, than someone that can hit the target with just one round.

If the thug philosophy were valid, police and military would use it.

G29Reload
10-04-2012, 21:55
http://cdn-www.i-am-bored.com/media/30438_SideSightGunGangs.jpg

This joke is ancient.:upeyes:

Mushinto
10-04-2012, 22:28
Just because he's a combat vet does not mean he knows what he's talking about. He has no idea what a flash sight picture is.

Snaps
10-04-2012, 22:32
This joke is ancient.:upeyes:

relax, it'll be okay.

Clutch Cargo
10-04-2012, 22:56
British and firearms? :rofl::rofl:

devildog2067
10-04-2012, 22:57
Just because he's a combat vet does not mean he knows what he's talking about.

Quoted for truth. I knew lots of Marines, and they were all good men, but man some of them were dumb as posts.

Gallium
10-05-2012, 01:28
Gangsta grip came about from shooting out of moving cars. Holding the gun sideways in theory allowed for a higher hit rate.

automatic slim
10-05-2012, 01:43
I always heard that when you turn the gun sideways, the rounds feed faster....you know, gravity and sh$t.....:wavey:

NEOH212
10-05-2012, 02:15
What they can't explain to this day is the need for regular dental care.

:wavey:

BEER
10-05-2012, 04:03
i've always found this subject interesting. if you just point at something with your finger your hand naturally wants to orient itself in a horizontal manner. i bet if somebody were to put a little time and practice in they could get just as accurate with the horizontal grip as the "normal" vertical grip.

the reason for gang bangers having no accuracy has nothing to do with their grip method, it's the fact that none of them every practice and they definitely don't spend anywhere near the amount of time on the range as most of us.

Bren
10-05-2012, 04:23
Here's an article I didn't expect :shocked:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2212899/Marine-marksman-sheds-light-gunmen-hood-unwittingly-use-known-aiming-technique.html

The sad result of a non-gun society, is that even your "gun experts" go downhill.:upeyes:

It might be valid, but I suspect the "flash sight picture" down the side of the slide (not sure how he gets "sight picture" in there) is no better than what I do without looking at the gun at all.

c6601a
10-05-2012, 04:25
i bet if somebody were to put a little time and practice in they could get just as accurate with the horizontal grip as the "normal" vertical grip.You will loose that bet. Holding your gun vertically or horizontally leads to very different alignment of joints/muscles which leads to significant differences in your ability to handle the recoil. This falls under the field of biomechanics.

Bren
10-05-2012, 04:28
i've always found this subject interesting. if you just point at something with your finger your hand naturally wants to orient itself in a horizontal manner.

Something may be wrong with your hands. Vertical, like a normal shooting position, is natural for most people. That's why the hand gun was designed to fit that grip and why we have things like vertical forend grips for rifles.

Ever seen "neutral grip" weightlifting exercises and bars? They're called neutral because horizontal isn't a normal hand position.

Gallium
10-05-2012, 04:33
You will loose that bet. Holding your gun vertically or horizontally leads to very different alignment of joints/muscles which leads to significant differences in your ability to handle the recoil. This falls under the field of bio-mechanics.


Generally, a slight to pronounced pronation (lateral to medial line) of the wrist, rotating the radial bone off the vertical axis of the ulna provides for the most stable upright single-handed shooting platform.


Are you into the field of bio-mechanics? :cool:

Bren
10-05-2012, 05:05
Generally, a slight to pronounced pronation (lateral to medial line) of the wrist, rotating the radial bone off the vertical axis of the ulna provides for the most stable upright single-handed shooting platform.


Are you into the field of bio-mechanics? :cool:

That is the newest trend for one hand shooting, and I do it in classes where it's taught, but I don't buy it. Part of the idea (aside from turning the sights inward) is that turning your hand in slightly takes the tension off your writ - they overlook that tension on the joints is a GOOD thing when shooting. The best grip styles increase, rather than decrease tension at the wrist.

Gallium
10-05-2012, 06:05
That is the newest trend for one hand shooting, and I do it in classes where it's taught, but I don't buy it. Part of the idea (aside from turning the sights inward) is that turning your hand in slightly takes the tension off your writ - they overlook that tension on the joints is a GOOD thing when shooting. The best grip styles increase, rather than decrease tension at the wrist.


It was only up until about 1995 that police were still training with their fingers on trigger.

You don't have to "buy" it - it's not a concept for sale. The wrist is still locked.

ca survivor
10-05-2012, 06:16
a load of BS and every body is a "combat vet" these days, I'll will stick to the old method, if I have time to aim....

Bren
10-05-2012, 06:19
It was only up until about 1995 that police were still training with their fingers on trigger.

You don't have to "buy" it - it's not a concept for sale. The wrist is still locked.

I started my police training in 1987 and it wasn't taught that way. Books on the subject, going back to the 50's, likewise say to keep the finger off the trigger, just like today.

In don't "buy it" because I have trained with it and it isn't an improvement - it just turns your sights in a direction they aren't zeroed for and weakens your recoil control.

ithaca_deerslayer
10-05-2012, 06:26
You guys are all way off base. Early generations of Glock had the brass to the face ejection problem, just like the gen 4. By turning the gun on its side to shoot, gangstas forced their Glocks to eject left.

A side benefit is that crime scene analysis would pin the shooting on the gangsta buddy standing to the left of the actual shooter. Thus the phrase "right hand man", because if the gangsta boss didn't want you picked up by the police he would stand you on his right during the actual shooting. Less valued men were always placed on the left.

gwalchmai
10-05-2012, 06:54
People who hold pistols that way do it because they've seen it done that way in movies and TV, or they're aping their friends who do it that way because they saw it on movies or TV. It has nothing to do with intelligent aiming choices.

Steve0853
10-05-2012, 07:20
Generally, a slight to pronounced pronation (lateral to medial line) of the wrist, rotating the radial bone off the vertical axis of the ulna provides for the most stable upright single-handed shooting platform. :cool:


Huh???? :dunno:

Steve0853
10-05-2012, 07:23
You guys are all way off base. Early generations of Glock had the brass to the face ejection problem, just pike the gen 4. By turning the gun on its side to shoot, gangstas forced their Glocks to eject left.

A side benefit is that crime scene analysis would pin the shooting on the gangsta buddy standing to the left of the actual shooter. Thus the phrase "right hand man", because if the gangsta boss didn't want you picked up by the police he would stand you on his right during the actual shooting. Less valued men were always placed on the left.

Just an FYI, the term "right hand man" is much older than the Glock pistol......and there may be some forensic problems with the second paragraph also.

ithaca_deerslayer
10-05-2012, 18:36
Just an FYI, the term "right hand man" is much older than the Glock pistol......and there may be some forensic problems with the second paragraph also.

Speaking of which, did you know the term "FYI" was actually invented by Gaston Glock. He got so tired of saying "For your information, Glocks are not all plastic. . ." to reporters, that one day he shortened it to FYI.

ithaca_deerslayer
10-05-2012, 18:41
Point being, my explanations in this thread make about as much sense as that stupid article :)

el_jewapo
10-05-2012, 18:45
Good lord. People are way over thinking this. They shoot sideways gangster style because somewhere along the way, someone shot like that and someone else thought it looked cool and started doing it and it ballooned from there. It's for looks, no other reason.

ETA:

I'd rather try touching the moon than take on a "gangstas" thinking. Some of you should adopt that motto.

tsmo1066
10-05-2012, 19:02
Just an FYI, the term "right hand man" is much older than the Glock pistol......and there may be some forensic problems with the second paragraph also.

Ok...History Geek alert here...apologies in advance for the useless trivia...

You're correct and there are references to that term going back to at least Ancient Greece where it referred to the position of soldiers in Phalanx infantry formations.

Greek soldiers were taught to fight right-handed in formation, holding spear or sword in their right hand and shield in their left hand. The shield was not just carried for self defense while in formation, but also used to defend and protect the person to one's immediate left in the phalanx since it was difficult to swing the shield across the body and around one's own spear while fighting to defend against attacks coming in from the right. Each member of the phalanx had to blindly trust the man to his immediate right to effectively protect him from anything coming at him from his right hand side while he fought in formation.

Thus the term "right hand man" came to mean someone you literally trusted with your life.

There's an old reference in a text on Greek warfare I read many years back that quoted Alexander telling his troops before a major battle to "Trust my commands as you would trust the man at your right hand."

...History geek rambling off...
:wavey:

NH Trucker
10-05-2012, 19:29
Turning it sideways makes it a kill shot.





Someone had to say it.

treeline
10-05-2012, 19:39
Good lord. People are way over thinking this. They shoot sideways gangster style because somewhere along the way, someone shot like that and someone else thought it looked cool and started doing it and it ballooned from there. It's for looks, no other reason.


I'm sure you're right about people copying something that looks cool, at least to them. It's a mix of power and casual contempt for the person being shot. However, I can see sense in Gallium's comment about it being easier to shoot from a car that way. Try leaning back and pointing a gun to the side; your hand will naturally twist sideways and if people have no idea about proper aiming - or simply don't care - they might leave it that way.

TKM
10-05-2012, 20:41
Gangsta grip came about from shooting out of moving cars. Holding the gun sideways in theory allowed for a higher hit rate.



Looks like you are about 40% right.

hispanic shooting range - YouTube

G19Tony
10-05-2012, 21:46
Looks like you are about 40% right.

hispanic shooting range - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgM62hdIm0w)

I was hoping someone would post that. :rofl:

janice6
10-05-2012, 22:27
Looks like you are about 40% right.

hispanic shooting range - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgM62hdIm0w)



That is so funny......Thanks.

Snaps
10-05-2012, 23:43
as it was explained to me, the gangsta hold started well..in the ghettos. The reasoning behind is is these people there are so dumb that they just assumed that's how you hold the gun because that's the way it came in the box.

happyguy
10-06-2012, 03:48
My theory of why thugs lay the gun sideways to shoot is:

They are following the "bullet hose" method of shooting. This involves shooting in the general vicinity of the target, and just pumping quantities bullets down range with the hope that one or some hit their mark. If innocents are hit it, is of no consequence to the shooter.

The recoil muzzle flip experienced by skilled shooters, pulls the muzzle up and continued shooting simply makes more holes in the air, instead of in the targeted individuals.

By laying the gun horizontally, the muzzle flip is moving the gun in a horizontal plane and putting many bullets downrange is more apt to hit something, than nothing (as when they just shoot into the air during muzzle flip).

This method may be more acceptable to thugs when shooting at a group of people rather than an individual. by spraying bullets in a horizontal plane your percentage will increase of hitting something, rather than nothing.

Thugs don't seem to care what, or who they hit, because most of the time it's more than one person they are shooting at. Shooting someone, is more important than who is hit.

More skilled shooters do not like the possibility of hitting persons and bystanders that are not involved in the altercation, and use more care in aiming.
,
Choice is: bullet hosing or precision.

I believe my luck is better against a bullet hose, than someone that can hit the target with just one round.

If the thug philosophy were valid, police and military would use it.

Do you honestly believe they put this much thought into it?

Regards,
Happyguy :)

Shagrat
10-06-2012, 04:08
British and firearms? :rofl::rofl:

SAS, Royal Marines, Parachute Regiment...

DanaT
10-06-2012, 04:49
Ok...History Geek alert here...apologies in advance for the useless trivia...

You're correct and there are references to that term going back to at least Ancient Greece where it referred to the position of soldiers in Phalanx infantry formations.

Greek soldiers were taught to fight right-handed in formation, holding spear or sword in their right hand and shield in their left hand. The shield was not just carried for self defense while in formation, but also used to defend and protect the person to one's immediate left in the phalanx since it was difficult to swing the shield across the body and around one's own spear while fighting to defend against attacks coming in from the right. Each member of the phalanx had to blindly trust the man to his immediate right to effectively protect him from anything coming at him from his right hand side while he fought in formation.

Thus the term "right hand man" came to mean someone you literally trusted with your life.

There's an old reference in a text on Greek warfare I read many years back that quoted Alexander telling his troops before a major battle to "Trust my commands as you would trust the man at your right hand."

...History geek rambling off...
:wavey:

I like this.

It is like the history of "decimation". Now-a-days they always talk about a community being "decimated". Really? 1 out very 10 men were lined up and killed to keep discipline in the ranks.

series1811
10-06-2012, 05:17
Quoted for truth. I knew lots of Marines, and they were all good men, but man some of them were dumb as posts.

I have a good friend who was infantry (101st) who said his favorite method of returning fire in Vietnam was to just hold his M-16 up and let it pick the targets while he stayed behind cover. He said he saw no point in him and his gun getting shot at. :supergrin:

I think gangsta homeboys have the same theory, and from the shootings I have investigated, are usually equally dangerous to friend as to foe when going tactical.

jdsumner
10-06-2012, 16:35
How 'bout it comes from seeing how a cop/soldier runs his pistol if he's the shield guy. My guess is hits at these social distances are achievable w practice, but I'm betting only the 'shield guy' trains to truly make hits this way.

Homies see it, thinks it looks pretty intimidating, after all, it [I]was[I] when they saw it coming at them. So, seeing as how it looked cool, they adopted it.

dan

Hamguy
10-06-2012, 18:31
Really? We need someone to explain this? Can't we just agree that gang bangers shoot that way because they are monkeys who have no idea what the eff they are doing, and just move on?

janice6
10-06-2012, 18:34
Do you honestly believe they put this much thought into it?

Regards,
Happyguy :)




Nah, probably not. sometimes it's useless to try to find any sense in a procedure thought up by an idiot.

aircarver
10-06-2012, 18:43
as it was explained to me, the gangsta hold started well..in the ghettos. The reasoning behind is is these people there are so dumb that they just assumed that's how you hold the gun because that's the way it came in the box.

Gangstas are encouraged to shoot that way so they miss .... :supergrin:

.

Arc Angel
10-06-2012, 19:12
:) In my humble opinion ....... Janice6 is closest to the truth on this one. As for the article, itself? The author needs to revise his thinking. I do as much, or more, rapid fire pistol shooting as anyone on this board. I don't need to turn a pistol sideways in order to fire quickly - or, as the author asserts - to gain an expedient sight picture. I stopped, 'nesting' my front sight years ago in favor of holding low on COM just as quickly as I could get the pistol up and thrust, forward, into the target.

Does a locked wrist contribute anything useful to combat pistol shooting? Yes, it does and especially if you intend to take a second or third reasonably accurate shot. Does relaxing the tension in your forearm tendons by firing from a, '1/4 or 1/2 homie' offer any benefit? It hasn't made a heck of a lot of difference for me. I'm used to looking at the exact same front sight picture ALL OF THE TIME. It doesn't matter to me whether the front sight is high or low; but, I need to know that it's positioned relatively equidistant inside the rear sight notch.

The only advantage I've discovered to a gangsta pistol hold and sight picture is exactly what Janice6 has suggested; a fact that FBI research on how criminals shoot seems to validate. DON'T AIM FOR THE BEST SHOT YOU CAN, POSSIBLY, MAKE. JUST GET SOME LEAD INTO THEM. Then, once the target is down, either run away or administer a coup de grace.

Admittedly none of this is, 'pretty' or pleasant to talk about; but, it's how, 'down 'n dirty' CQB pistol gunfighting works in the real world. :freak:

maximus1079
10-06-2012, 20:17
a load of BS and every body is a "combat vet" these days, I'll will stick to the old method, if I have time to aim....
Right on!!!

happyguy
10-07-2012, 05:51
:) In my humble opinion ....... Janice6 is closest to the truth on this one. As for the article, itself? The author needs to revise his thinking. I do as much, or more, rapid fire pistol shooting as anyone on this board. I don't need to turn a pistol sideways in order to fire quickly - or, as the author asserts - to gain an expedient sight picture. I stopped, 'nesting' my front sight years ago in favor of holding low on COM just as quickly as I could get the pistol up and thrust, forward, into the target.

Does a locked wrist contribute anything useful to combat pistol shooting? Yes, it does and especially if you intend to take a second or third reasonably accurate shot. Does relaxing the tension in your forearm tendons by firing from a, '1/4 or 1/2 homie' offer any benefit? It hasn't made a heck of a lot of difference for me. I'm used to looking at the exact same front sight picture ALL OF THE TIME. It doesn't matter to me whether the front sight is high or low; but, I need to know that it's positioned relatively equidistant inside the rear sight notch.

The only advantage I've discovered to a gangsta pistol hold and sight picture is exactly what Janice6 has suggested; a fact that FBI research on how criminals shoot seems to validate. DON'T AIM FOR THE BEST SHOT YOU CAN, POSSIBLY, MAKE. JUST GET SOME LEAD INTO THEM. Then, once the target is down, either run away or administer a coup de grace.

Admittedly none of this is, 'pretty' or pleasant to talk about; but, it's how, 'down 'n dirty' CQB pistol gunfighting works in the real world. :freak:

Well, if they do it in Hollywood...

Regards,
Happyguy :)