APEX Extractors [Archive] - Glock Talk

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153
10-06-2012, 18:07
They are out, and expensive...

We had one thread about the Apex, but it was closed. Any other proud owners of this possible BTF cure have any observations.

dhgeyer
10-06-2012, 18:32
Here's an active thread in which the Apex manufacturer is participating.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=87993&page=15

EDIT: You will need to keep updating the page number at the end as needed.

SJ 40
10-06-2012, 19:04
They are out, and expensive...

We had one thread about the Apex, but it was closed. Any other proud owners of this possible BTF cure have any observations.Expensive compared to what a 450.00-500.00 Glock,if it fixes Glocks shortcomings I think 60.00 is a bargain. SJ 40

samuse
10-06-2012, 20:53
I don't know. It looks promising but I'm not sure that it's a definite solution yet.

llcoolj_2222
10-06-2012, 23:26
Expensive compared to what a 450.00-500.00 Glock,if it fixes Glocks shortcomings I think 60.00 is a bargain. SJ 40

60$ is ******** over 10% of the product end user price, for a part that glock should have been providing in the first place..

diamondd2
10-06-2012, 23:40
60$ is ******** over 10% of the product end user price, for a part that glock should have been providing in the first place..


I dont know about that. If you read the reviews on m4carbine it seems BTF is cured but weak ejection still exists. I can get to no BTF and weak ejection by polishing the Glock extractors.

faawrenchbndr
10-07-2012, 04:23
Here is the fix,.......for $10


http://www.whitesounddefense.com/products/H.R.E.D.-9mm.html

3rdgen40
10-07-2012, 04:50
Nothing like buying a brand new gun,then having to "fix" it.Glock "Perfection"...LOL!

faawrenchbndr
10-07-2012, 06:09
Nothing like buying a brand new gun,then having to "fix" it.Glock "Perfection"...LOL!

Neat huh,........how is the S&W running?

mo.glocker
10-07-2012, 06:20
Here is the fix,.......for $10


http://www.whitesounddefense.com/products/H.R.E.D.-9mm.html
i might have to try one,does the spring show in the ejection port?good god!,do you think they have a long enough explanation(lol)jef817:dunno:

SJ 40
10-07-2012, 06:21
60$ is ******** over 10% of the product end user price, for a part that glock should have been providing in the first place..Glock should be shipping workable guns from the factory,no dispute.
They aren't.
Glock-factory OEM- MiMed extractor - cost for them to produce that part,we will most likely find out,guess 2.00.

Apex- replacement extractor-tool steel-EDM machined,comes with SLB extractor depressor plunger and EDP spring.

Again we will most likely find out the cost to produce ,if one understands the methods used to produce the two parts,the apex part is more costly to produce.

Mim
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_injection_molding

EDM machining
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_discharge_machining
http://www.edmmachining.com/

EDM is a more costly,precise part produced of solid steel rather than powdered metal with a plastic binder,heated.
I know which of the two will wear better,hold up longer.
SJ 40

3rdgen40
10-07-2012, 16:22
Neat huh,........how is the S&W running?
Like a Swiss watch....:cool:

Glock2336
10-07-2012, 16:45
Here is the fix,.......for $10


http://www.whitesounddefense.com/products/H.R.E.D.-9mm.html



Wish it fixed mine... Oh and it is $20. :supergrin:

jbglock
10-07-2012, 16:47
Here is the fix,.......for $10


http://www.whitesounddefense.com/products/H.R.E.D.-9mm.html

According to them you should not buy that to fix BTF.
From that link...
"That said, Glock pistols are well engineered, so if you have one that will not function with OEM components, something is out of tolerance. The root issue should be identified, even if installing the H.R.E.D. resolves the problem."

I don't agree. I feel the issue is nothing more than the new RSA's being too strong. Of course they sort of agree (slide velocity) if you read everything they write about their part. They just address it a different way than going to a lighter recoil spring assembly.

TheExplorer
10-07-2012, 16:48
Link for those interested.https://apextactical.com/store/product-info.php?pid67.html
Only for 9mm owners right now which I don't understand since 40 and 45 GAP are doing it as well.

Glock2336
10-07-2012, 16:53
And to people complaining about the price, Randy Lee explains why...

Originally posted by Randy Lee:
Greetings all,

I wanted to chime in on a few things. First, I have been constantly monitoring this and various forums to see the responses as to what people think about the price, our marketing and more importantly, the functioning of our extractor. I find it rather sad that many would judge me, my company or its' practices without ever knowing who we are personally, nor the development of a complex product like the extractor.

For those who find it distasteful that we would charge $60.00 for the part, I would ask you to take your Glock factory extractor to a local machine shop and get a quote from them to machine. I think the reality of the actual cost might just surprise you. You will need to factor in the material, heat treat pricing and finishing. Many will find that their local machine shop won't even touch the project. Then there is always the possibility that the reproduction you have made won't work or fit. Back to square one, redesign and pay for more prototypes to be made before you can get to the point that you can produce the part for sale.

Eleven beta testers from around the country began running guns with our extractors over the past year. Their data was necessary to prove that our part was designed correctly and did the job under a variety of conditions. Some of them would publicly post results to let others know, good or bad how the product was performing. It was not a sleazy marketing attempt as some have alluded to. And I find it sad that some of the responses to them were beyond disrespectful. To them I publicly apologize for putting them in a position where they needed to defend their good names and reputations.

I began working on the project after several dear friends who are LEOs asked for help because they are required to carry the Gen 3 and 4 guns and have no confidence in them to perform when their lives or others are on the line. It wasn't to make loads of money, or sell snake oil as one person put it on another forum. It was to help them. Period. Is sixty dollars a lot for an extractor and a spring? Yes. Please mention that to the families of the officers who have installed our kit in their duty pistols.

As Scott said, we will continue to look at price reducing manufacturing techniques. But I will be damned if I am going to do anything that sacrifices the safety margins I designed into this or any other part we sell. I have seen enough of this in our industry and I am tired of it.

-Randy

Originally posted by Randy Lee:
Please bear in mind that prototype runs are expensive. 11 parts at over $100.00 per part. That was the third iteration that was sent to the beta testers so the cost adds up quickly. Eleven testers who put the part in several different guns, and even let friends install the parts in their guns to broaden the sample size.

There is a limit to our financial resources, and I am not about to ask my employees if they wouldn't mind taking a cut in pay to have an order of magnitude larger sample population.

The other part of this story is that it is a self limiting market. Sooner or later the factory will figure out the solution. The question is how long? And how long do those individuals who are experiencing (and are affected by it- two very different groups)want to wait for a solution? For a large manufacturer like Glock, reverse engineering can be a very simple matter. I never intended our extractor to sell in droves. That was not my goal.

-Randy



more info here:
http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/430601935/m/3440056003/p/4


Disclaimer: I was one of the 11 Beta Testers of Apex's extractor but NOT an employee or paid for my testing.

jbglock
10-07-2012, 16:57
If he is monitoring forums then he will probably see this thread. I'd advise him to hire a tool maker so he can get things like this made when he needs them.

Glock2336
10-07-2012, 16:59
Link for those interested.https://apextactical.com/store/product-info.php?pid67.html
Only for 9mm owners right now which I don't understand since 40 and 45 GAP are doing it as well.


My last post may explain it but all the extra R&D, labor, machining of additional prototypes at $100 a pop, finding willing beta testers, additional adjustments, taking time away from other projects that make them money right now, other projects, answering phones, emails, gunsmithing, watching forum posts, intructing, competing and trying to have a life makes each project a lot of work.


Apex is comprised of 3 main people with a few recent hires as support.

Glock2336
10-07-2012, 17:02
If he is monitoring forums then he will probably see this thread. I'd advise him to hire a tool maker so he can get things like this made when he needs them.


I'm pretty sure Randy is aware of what his company needs :whistling:

jbglock
10-07-2012, 17:16
I'm pretty sure Randy is aware of what his company needs :whistling:

I'm pretty sure you have no idea of my background. If he is paying that much to have these prototyped I would disagree. In the past I would often eat a small loss on prototype jobs for a promise that I could fixture and produce for a decent quantity run afterwards. A Glock extractor is not exactly a complicated part.

TheExplorer
10-07-2012, 17:18
My last post may explain it but all the extra R&D, labor, machining of additional prototypes at $100 a pop, finding willing beta testers, additional adjustments, taking time away from other projects that make them money right now, other projects, answering phones, emails, gunsmithing, watching forum posts, intructing, competing and trying to have a life makes each project a lot of work.


Apex is comprised of 3 main people with a few recent hires as support.

And I completely understand that. I assume it was because the 9mm is the more popular version. If they are going to fill all 9mm orders before starting work on other versions it will just be a long time before the rest of us see the product.

Glock2336
10-07-2012, 17:21
I'm pretty sure you have no idea of my background. If he is paying that much to have these prototyped I would disagree. In the past I would often eat a small loss on prototype jobs for a promise that I could fixture and produce for a decent quantity run afterwards. A Glock extractor is not exactly a complicated part.


Sounds like you can make them for the other calibers since they said they don't intend to at this time. Sorry, I can't test for you as I only have 9mm Glocks. :rofl:

jbglock
10-07-2012, 17:39
Sounds like you can make them for the other calibers since they said they don't intend to at this time. Sorry, I can't test for you as I only have 9mm Glocks. :rofl:

I no longer work as a tool maker. I'm retired from that. If someone in NC though has a wire EDM, a manual mill, and a sine vise (sold mine) I can take a factory ejector, blueprint it, you show me what you want changed, fixture it cheaply, program, and have you doing your own mass run. I used to charge $130 per hour EDM and $80 conventional and still wouldn't charge that much for these. Anyone interested PM me.

Beretta92guy
10-07-2012, 17:43
too bad they did not make them for the .40 or i would have kept my glocks.....well, maybe.....having to spend 120 dollars for the BS glock should be fixing would not jive with me either.....

kaech
10-07-2012, 18:30
^^get outta here! Then your 27 would've ejected even further .....LOLz

diamondd2
10-10-2012, 06:09
So where are all the range reports for the new Apex extractor?

DannyR
10-10-2012, 06:17
I was just about to ask the same question.:wavey:

molar
10-10-2012, 06:40
So where are all the range reports for the new Apex extractor?

So far I've only tried the Apex extractor with factory SLB. I did not install the extractor plunger spring that came with the Apex unit. The Apex extractor looks exactly like the old cast non LCI glock extractors. I'm going to try the Apex with the old style non lci SLB since it will put more tension on the extractor. I'll report back

Glock2336
10-10-2012, 06:58
I was just about to ask the same question.:wavey:


Some are at M4Carbine.net where their members had first dibs...
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=87993


DannyR, you seem like you want them to fail and are in denial of the brass to the face problem.

DannyR
10-10-2012, 07:45
I do not wish them to fail, but am only curious if they really are an improvement. No more, no less.

There are three variables that may cause brass to the face:

1. Firearm
2. Operator
3. Ammo

Fire_Medic
10-10-2012, 07:50
I do not wish them to fail, but am only curious if they really are an improvement. No more, no less.

There are three variables that may cause brass to the face:

1. Firearm
2. Operator
3. Ammo

So when 1,2,& 3 have been the same on a pistol from round number 1, why would the brass to the face start after 2K + rounds through the pistol?

:dunno:

Glock2336
10-10-2012, 09:09
I do not wish them to fail, but am only curious if they really are an improvement. No more, no less.

There are three variables that may cause brass to the face:

1. Firearm
2. Operator
3. Ammo


1. Yes it is definitely my Gen 4 G19
2. Never an issue the past 14 years and 7 other Glocks including a 2nd and 3rd Generation G19
3. Ammo does play a role in my gun which I verified in my testing. Lower power Factor and possibly even the rim of the case make a difference in how often the erratic ejection occurred.

4. The Extractor and spring. Which Randy explains in the link I posted earlier. Just changing the Extractor alone turned my BTTF from once a magazine to 0/1020 rounds of testing. And the erratic ejection was reduced to an occasional case over my head instead of straight up, 3/6/9/12 o'clock and everywhere in between.

Arc Angel
10-10-2012, 09:26
So when 1,2,& 3 have been the same on a pistol from round number 1, why would the brass to the face start after 2K + rounds through the pistol?

:dunno:

Well, F_M, normally I'd be glad to tell ya; but the last time I posted an opinion on this some cyberspace jerk came along and - from out 'a the blue - accused me of stealing ideas from other board members! :supergrin:

Now that I know I'm being monitored by the Glock Talk, 'Thought Police' I have to be a lot more careful about what I post! I will, however, give you a clue. (Ready?) It's not the ammunition; and it's not the operator, either. OK! ;)

Fire_Medic
10-10-2012, 09:35
Well, F_M, normally I'd be glad to tell ya; but the last time I posted an opinion on this some cyberspace jerk came along and - from out 'a the blue - accused me of stealing ideas from other board members! :supergrin:

Now that I know I'm being monitored by the Glock Talk, 'Thought Police' I have to be a lot more careful about what I post! I will, however, give you a clue. (Ready?) It's not the ammunition; and it's not the operator, either. OK! ;)

It was more of a rhetorical question...... ;)

I agree, it's not the ammo or operator........ :supergrin:

SJ 40
10-10-2012, 09:42
Well, F_M, normally I'd be glad to tell ya; but the last time I posted an opinion on this some cyberspace jerk came along and - from out 'a the blue - accused me of stealing ideas from other board members! :supergrin:

Now that I know I'm being monitored by the Glock Talk, 'Thought Police' I have to be a lot more careful about what I post! I will, however, give you a clue. (Ready?) It's not the ammunition; and it's not the operator, either. OK! ;)Maybe it's just me but I respect the opinions you pose and your experience.Fanboys just want to cheer their favorite guns but if a gun fails to function,I don't care who produces it it's just a expensive fishing sinker.

If a gun can't be made to work it is worthless,what you and other posters are trying to do is get to the cause of why lately Glocks are less than perfect. Sometimes it's just the gun or in this case the Glock. SJ 40

Southwind
10-10-2012, 10:31
Well, F_M, normally I'd be glad to tell ya; but the last time I posted an opinion on this some cyberspace jerk came along and - from out 'a the blue - accused me of stealing ideas from other board members! :supergrin:

Now that I know I'm being monitored by the Glock Talk, 'Thought Police' I have to be a lot more careful about what I post! I will, however, give you a clue. (Ready?) It's not the ammunition; and it's not the operator, either. OK! ;)

Well, if I should ever come up with an idea, please feel free to do with it as you will.

Arc Angel
10-10-2012, 10:34
I haven't caught you making a mistake yet, either, SJ! :supergrin:




NOTE: Sometimes, being brutally frank about a gun (or any other product) and how well, or not, it performs is a social obligation we owe to one another.) ;)

SJ 40
10-10-2012, 11:40
I haven't caught you making a mistake yet, either, SJ! :supergrin:




NOTE: Sometimes, being brutally frank about a gun (or any other product) and how well, or not, it performs is a social obligation we owe to one another.) ;)I think the same way, what I know I can deal with but Pie in the Sky B S is just that,Pie in the Sky BS. SJ 40

9L0ck
10-10-2012, 11:51
Some are at M4Carbine.net where their members had first dibs...
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=87993


DannyR, you seem like you want them to fail and are in denial of the brass to the face problem.

Yes it seems Danny has been in denial. I am not trying to call you out Danny but as much as you shoot can you post a resent video of you shooting any of your gen 4 9mm. I would like to check out the ejection. I had a gen4 23 and had no issues at all before I sold it for my OD 19. But I do believe experienced shooters are having BTF issues.
To me it's not that big a deal as my guns are range guns. I rather have a gun that shoots every time with BTF than one that goes click.
I feel for those that use theirs for work (Leo's) and have to deal with the BTF issue.
I hope a solution will come up soon. (Apex or otherwise)

Glock2336
10-10-2012, 15:21
Just saw this too...
http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/glock19_shooters_report.html

What now, Gaston?
Harry Schneider reports on a curious issue with his favorite pistol

The Glock Model 19 is my preferred go-to handgun and I shoot it more than do most people.

I have personally experienced several failures to eject with my late 3rd Generation Glock 19, including several inline stovepipes including "Reverse Inline Stovepipes." The accompanying images depict three of more than twenty ejection failures with this gun (out of several thousand rounds) - note that these three photos involve three different brands of ammo).

I replaced the extractor assembly and recoil spring assembly and the problems continued with various magazines and types of ammo. I blamed myself because 9 X 19mm Glock pistols have a long established reputation for extraordinary reliability. The malfunctions most often occurred when I was shooting very rapidly. I have had tendonitis and suspected limp wristing.

Eventually this topic came up on the Gunsite Alumni list and I learned that many other well-trained shooters were experiencing the same problems with late "3rd Gen" 9 X 19mm Glocks and "4th Gen" 9 X 19mm Glocks. The reliability problems follow no predictable pattern sometimes showing up initially and sometimes after several thousand rounds.

It seems that Glock .40 S&W pistols have had ongoing issues, especially when insults are added such as when the shooter adds a flashlight and does not replace the magazines or at least the magazine spring every three years and does not replace older weaker recoil springs.

(When magazines are left continuously loaded, the springs should be replaced as part of routine maintenance.)
Glock has been making subtle changes in "3rd gen" guns to make the .40 more S&W pistols more reliable but at the same time the reliability of the 9 X 19mm pistols apparently has suffered as a result of these subtle changes.

White Sound Defense High Reliability Extractor Depressor A Gunsite Alumni list member stated that a solution is the White Sound Defense High Reliability Extractor Depressor (H.R.E.D.) plunger assembly for Glock pistols chambered in 9 X 19mm.

I got mine about a month ago and despite my best efforts I have not been able to make the pistol malfunction since. I have emptied 15- and 33-round magazines as quickly as I can, sometimes intentionally limp wristing. I have tried different ammunition ranging from +P+{sic} to weak "Wal-Mart white box."

(I have not tried Remington because their "UNC-brand practice ammo1" is so inferior that it is not a fair test for anything expect testing the shooters malfunction drills.)
I have obviously not tested the White Sound Defense 9 X 19mm product long term, nor have I tested their 357 SIG/.40 S&W variant.

However, thus far I could not be more pleased and would not dream of carrying my Glock Model 19 without the White Sound Defense assembly inside. I normally discourage aftermarket parts for Glocks, but wanted to share my experience with others even before my customary lengthy trial period.

Once again I am 100% comfortable with my Glock Model 19. Input is welcome.

DannyR
10-10-2012, 15:46
I have no means of making a video. Perhaps someone can video me at Masaad Ayoob's school in SC next month. I'll be using a Gen4 G19 there.

9L0ck
10-10-2012, 16:52
I have no means of making a video. Perhaps someone can video me at Masaad Ayoob's school in SC next month. I'll be using a Gen4 G19 there.

That would be great if someone could. Once again I mean no disrespect and I am not calling you out.
Even in a good shooter like Hickcok45s gen 4 vids you can see brass bounce off his hat. He is not having any failures but the brass is still ejecting funny. Just curious to see your ejection and if it stays consistant. You may no be getting BTF but I wounder if any of yours are weak. Hope this makes sense

DeMarcus
10-10-2012, 17:09
So where are all the range reports for the new Apex extractor?

Here is mine:

G19 FDE Gen3, build Apr 2012, 336 ejector & dipped MIM extractor
1st 450 rds - 12-15 brass-to-face, 1 stovepipe & erratic weak ejection in 360 degree arc.

I switched to the 30274 ejector & Lone Wolf extractor. I fired 300 rds more rds. There was an improvement, but not ”Perfection.” No Brass-to-face, no stovepipes, 95% of the ejection 3-5 o’clock, slightly stronger ejection (2-3ft away instead of at my feet). However, I had 5 landed on top of my head & several on my right arm.

Last weekend, I tried the Apex extractor & spring along with the 30274 ejector. I fired 250 rds. I had no BTF & no malfunctions. Ejection was 4-5 o'clock landing 3-5 ft away. I had one case graze my right shoulder.

I have several other Glocks including a G19 Gen2 & a 2005 G19 Gen3. None have the problem with BTF using same ammo & shooter (me).