Brass To Face! Gen 4 G17 Ejection Examined (Video) [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Raleigh Glocker
10-07-2012, 01:32
Well, I set out to make a video showing how great the ejection was in my Gen 4 G17. I've had roughly 900 rounds of perfect ejection, with lots of video to prove it on my YouTube channel.

Half way through getting my footage for this video, it happened. I started to get BTF.

I demonstrate the ejection of WWB, Speer Lawman 115gr FMJ, and Ranger T-Series 127gr +p+. Each of them ejected just fine for me previously, but by the time I switched camera angles, they all started to shoot brass into my face.
:faint:

As I show you, this BTF doesn't matter what ammo is being used, and it doesn't matter how you hold the pistol. There is definitely something that has shifted with how this pistol is engaging and ejecting brass, though I can't see anything wrong with the extractor that looks like abnormal wear.

This seems to match the new experience mentioned by others here, where you get great ejection from brand new Gen 4 9mms for a while only to have it end up in your face after 800 rounds or so.

Check it out and see for yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbgrioNpJSA

ETA: Here are the companion videos. The slow motion comparison is especially revealing.

Brass Not To Face! Gen 4 G23 Ejection Examined
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwZ-npnBkBs

Slow Motion Glocks! Gen 4 G17 & G23 Ejection Compared
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOAtSPHmgwU

zee90
10-07-2012, 01:54
Do you have the updated 043 RSA and 30274 ejector? Also, you mentioned you have an extractor made from the number 2 mold. Was this a pre-Nov 2011 gen4 with the older MiM extractor?

Tiro Fijo
10-07-2012, 02:19
A. You're breaking your wrists when you are getting BTF. Plain as day to see.

B. lose the operator gloves as they are over the top for the pistol range

C. make shorter vids that are to the point.

packinaglock
10-07-2012, 05:01
Good review, this is happening to quite a few people at the 800-1000 round mark. I'm starting to think Gaston pissed off a Gypsy a couple years back and she cursed him. :supergrin:

ricklee4570
10-07-2012, 05:11
What is really baffling is the number of cases where people go 1000 troublefree rounds only to have this start. What could be causing this? Everyone keeps changing parts to no avail.

With all the great gunsmiths out there, it is crazy that no surefire solution has been found.

RonS
10-07-2012, 05:29
It was interesting to watch how the ejection changed over time. It seemed to me that from in the video @ 6:30 to 6:43 the ejection pattern began to change. The first shots went well clear of the shooters arm to the outside, then a couple fell on the arm, then away again then the trajectory swung to the rear as the gun began to eject up and back instead of to the right.

If I had to bet on the cause I would bet that the ejector is now contacting the case head closer to the center of the case. When I get a chance I think I'll get my 26 out and see how much room there is for the ejector to move or flex. I could easily be completely off base of course.

Raleigh Glocker
10-07-2012, 05:44
A. You're breaking your wrists when you are getting BTF. Plain as day to see.

B. lose the operator gloves as they are over the top for the pistol range

C. make shorter vids that are to the point.

So, you're saying that I'm breaking my wrists with a two-handed grip moreso than when I'm barely holding the pistol in the first clip and getting normal ejection? Heck, I do the tea cup pinky and all... :dunno:

I've got 24 years shooting Glocks with no brass to face except for the first few boxes I ran through my brand new Gen 4 G23 two years ago. It was known then that the RSA was stiff and needed to be broken in, so it didn't bother me.

I've got countless posts here on Gen 4 threads saying, "Mine eject great, thanks!" I've used that G17 in other videos for my YouTube channel, showing beautiful ejection.

I shot 500 rounds that day out of the G17, giving it every chance to stop ejecting BTF. It did not. Once it started, the ejection kept hitting my shoulder and face and going over my head. I practically choked the brown out of it, and it still sent brass towards my shoulder and head.

As to point "C.", I realize that some just want to see one single clip of only shooting. The video of my Gen 4 G23 I'm finishing today will be more to your liking, I think.

That said, I make the kind of video I like to watch, and luckily, others do, too. I appreciate you taking the time to watch it and comment, though.

Raleigh Glocker
10-07-2012, 05:50
It was interesting to watch how the ejection changed over time. It seemed to me that from in the video @ 6:30 to 6:43 the ejection pattern began to change. The first shots went well clear of the shooters arm to the outside, then a couple fell on the arm, then away again then the trajectory swung to the rear as the gun began to eject up and back instead of to the right.

If I had to bet on the cause I would bet that the ejector is now contacting the case head closer to the center of the case. When I get a chance I think I'll get my 26 out and see how much room there is for the ejector to move or flex. I could easily be completely off base of course.

It leaves me thinking that the extractor is wearing somehow, but I don't see any wear on it that is different from my other Glocks. I thought I read that some are getting machined extractors from Glock to replace their MIM extractors. I'll see what Glock says when I call them this week.

Raleigh Glocker
10-07-2012, 05:55
Do you have the updated 043 RSA and 30274 ejector? Also, you mentioned you have an extractor made from the number 2 mold. Was this a pre-Nov 2011 gen4 with the older MiM extractor?

This is a Dark Earth Gen 4 G17 with a test fire date of 3/6/12. It has a 042 RSA and the 30274 ejector. The extractor is clearly a MIM extractor from the #2 mold. I plan to post some good pics on the TWANGnBANG Facebook page and will link here when I do.

I'm not sure why a change in RSA would be needed unless mine already wore out. Heck, the original RSAs were so stiff, they had to be broken in to get rid of the BTF. :)

faawrenchbndr
10-07-2012, 06:08
Replace the Gen 4 with an older 3rd Gen........problem solved!
It's what I did.

Fire_Medic
10-07-2012, 06:28
This is a Dark Earth Gen 4 G17 with a test fire date of 3/6/12. It has a 042 RSA and the 30274 ejector. The extractor is clearly a MIM extractor from the #2 mold. I plan to post some good pics on the TWANGnBANG Facebook page and will link here when I do.

I'm not sure why a change in RSA would be needed unless mine already wore out. Heck, the original RSAs were so stiff, they had to be broken in to get rid of the BTF. :)

I started having the same issues at over 2K rounds, crazy stuff huh.

I don't know if it was a typo or not on your behalf, or if it would even help your pistol but the latest RSA is the 0-4-3, which my pistol does have. The latest ejector is the 30274 which my gun also came with. I'm over 3K rounds now so they're sending me a new RSA to try as we'll as a new extractor. I'm curious to see if there will be anything different with the new extractor they're sending me, and if this will change anything. I am anxious to try an Apex extractor on their next run if the new Glock part does not work. Good luck with your pistol, if the new parts are not the fix for me I will be reluctantly sending my gun back to the factory knowing full well they will probably end up replacing it.

faawrenchbndr
10-07-2012, 06:34
Gabe,

A while back a few had luck with using a 40 S&W extractor.
How did that work out?

plouffedaddy
10-07-2012, 06:34
A. You're breaking your wrists when you are getting BTF. Plain as day to see.



No you're not.

Moving on... Great video. I had to make a few of these videos myself when I had a problematic G19 (PYU serial number). I have over 20 Glocks that were trouble free and 1 bad one--it wasn't me. In the end Glock replaced it and the replacement has been 100% trouble/issue free.

Raleigh Glocker
10-07-2012, 06:41
No you're not.

Moving on... Great video. I had to make a few of these videos myself when I had a problematic G19 (PYU serial number). I have over 20 Glocks that were trouble free and 1 bad one--it wasn't me. In the end Glock replaced it and the replacement has been 100% trouble/issue free.

Your vids I think were the first that I saw where anyone claiming you had bad form revealed themselves as wannabes. :) There are a few others out there now that show the same as yours- good form, good ammo, and BTF.

I seriously wanted to do a similar video showing awesome ejection from my trouble-free Gen 4s. Darnit if I wasn't cursed for trying.

Raleigh Glocker
10-07-2012, 06:44
I started having the same issues at over 2K rounds, crazy stuff huh.

I don't know if it was a typo or not on your behalf, or if it would even help your pistol but the latest RSA is the 0-4-3, which my pistol does have. The latest ejector is the 30274 which my gun also came with. I'm over 3K rounds now so they're sending me a new RSA to try as we'll as a new extractor. I'm curious to see if there will be anything different with the new extractor they're sending me, and if this will change anything. I am anxious to try an Apex extractor on their next run if the new Glock part does not work. Good luck with your pistol, if the new parts are not the fix for me I will be reluctantly sending my gun back to the factory knowing full well they will probably end up replacing it.
Nope. It is indeed a 042 RSA, so I guess that will be replaced with the 043. I will also ask about a new extractor. Did they mention whether they were sending you another MIM extractor or a machined one?

4949shooter
10-07-2012, 07:07
Good video.

I would be curious to know what steps Glock is taking to correct these issues, if any. Who knows? Glock inc. might be selling so many pistols that they don't care about the (possibly few) numbers that exhibit BTF.

My guess is that most gun owners don't shoot thousands of rounds through their guns like we do. Typical example...I took my buddy down to the LGS and got him a deal on a Gen 4 G22. We went to the range twice and put a few boxes through it with the gun working great. Now I can't get him to go back to the range unless I twist his arm. I would be willing to bet that the vast majority of gun owners fall into this category. A Glock that throws BTF after a thousand rounds will never become an issue for these folks. And Glock keeps selling guns and making money. It's all about $$.

SJ 40
10-07-2012, 07:10
Nope. It is indeed a 042 RSA, so I guess that will be replaced with the 043. I will also ask about a new extractor. Did they mention whether they were sending you another MIM extractor or a machined one?My understanding is the so called new extractor is still MiMed but with out the dip of the so called dipped MiMed extractor-Old.
Prior to that the extractors were investment cast,I have a 1999 and 2002 that are both machined extractors.
SJ 40

dhgeyer
10-07-2012, 07:18
Possible explanation:

In another thread: http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1444851 I showed pictures of my home made Spring Loaded Bearing (SLB). JBS asked me if I had noticed wear to the front of the Extractor Depressor Plunger (EDP) where it enters the slide at the front. At first I said no, but on closer examination, yes there was definitely scoring in that location after about 500 rounds. JBS said that he had seen extensive wear in this area on a number of guns. As a result of this I made my own EDP to go with my SLB. In my last picture you can plainly see the wear starting on the factory part. This, if allowed to continue, could definitely cause binding in the action of the extractor. You might want to check your EDP for this.

On second thought, why make you read the entire old thread. Here's the image of the worn EDP along with my home made one. Mine top, factory bottom.

http://www.gallery1700.net/linkto/plunger01.jpg

SJ 40
10-07-2012, 07:26
Good video.

I would be curious to know what steps Glock is taking to correct these issues, if any. Who knows? Glock inc. might be selling so many pistols that they don't care about the (possibly few) numbers that exhibit BTF.

My guess is that most gun owners don't shoot thousands of rounds through their guns like we do. Typical example...I took my buddy down to the LGS and got him a deal on a Gen 4 G22. We went to the range twice and put a few boxes through it with the gun working great. Now I can't get him to go back to the range unless I twist his arm. I would be willing to bet that the vast majority of gun owners fall into this category. A Glock that throws BTF after a thousand rounds will never become an issue for these folks. And Glock keeps selling guns and making money. It's all about $$.4949 Shooter
I think you have come up with a reasonable theory .
Many gun owners are not shooters as many deer hunters are not shooters.
I know many hunters that may or may not take their rifle to the range to check sights once or twice a year.
Then I know a couple that are practicing different positions,differing ranges all the time looking to improve their shooting.
I suspect the same holds true for Glock owners,shooters.
SJ 40

FFR Spyder GT
10-07-2012, 07:31
A. You're breaking your wrists when you are getting BTF. Plain as day to see.

B. lose the operator gloves as they are over the top for the pistol range

C. make shorter vids that are to the point.

+1!


So, you're saying that I'm breaking my wrists with a two-handed grip moreso than when I'm barely holding the pistol in the first clip and getting normal ejection? Heck, I do the tea cup pinky and all... :dunno:

I've got 24 years shooting Glocks

.

Yeah, but you're doing it wrong that's why you're getting BTF.

Ditch the gloves, stand up straight ( I've never understood the "Look at my butt, ain't it cute?" stance ) learn how to grip your Glock and the BTF problem will go away.

Thanks for posting the video because it clears shows what you are doing wrong.

Pretty simple.

Sgt127
10-07-2012, 07:50
Ditch the gloves, stand up straight ( I've never understood the "Look at my butt, ain't it cute?" stance ) learn how to grip your Glock and the BTF problem will go away.

If what you say is true, its a pretty damaging argument against Glock. If, during a gunfight, I have to remember to "stand up straight, keep my butt tucked in, not wear gloves and keep a two handed, locked wrist grip on my Glock", its not really a gun I want to defend myself with.

The OP's technique looked fine to me, the gun should run without a problem, I've seen MUCH worse.

SPIN2010
10-07-2012, 07:57
Pretty good video! Very rare that you caught a failure in action.

(IMHO) If you cannot shoot with gloves, there is a real problem ... good luck in the winter or real engagement. Also, if you cannot shoot a "Combat" pistol in "ANY" position there is a serious issue with the gun (hold on Mr. Enemy I need to stand up and get in a proper position. :upeyes:)

Glock definately has changed the manufacturing procedure somewhere, but one would think that a test engineer (@ Glock) would have been all over it. Maybe Glock has joined the same apathetic engineering line that is molded by the bottom line as many companies have in the last decade.

Scary, for Glock.

RonS
10-07-2012, 07:58
If a Glock will not function properly because a shooter is wearing gloves or not standing up straight then maybe we know why the US military bought the M9.

Raleigh Glocker
10-07-2012, 08:03
+1!




Yeah, but you're doing it wrong that's why you're getting BTF.

Ditch the gloves, stand up straight ( I've never understood the "Look at my butt, ain't it cute?" stance ) learn how to grip your Glock and the BTF problem will go away.

Thanks for posting the video because it clears shows what you are doing wrong.

Pretty simple.

So, as long as you:
1. Don't wear gloves.
2. Stand up straight.
3. Grip a Glock with the "Glock Perfection" grip...

...you won't get BTF. :)

Regardless of what you think about 1-3 above, 24 years of doing it wrong has not resulted in BTF until now (with one noted exception). 900 rounds of doing it wrong has not resulted in BTF with this very gun. It also somehow doesn't happen when I shoot my Gen 2 G20, Gen 4 G23, USP40, P9C, 1911, Colt Anaconda... (OK, so it's hard to get BTF with the last one unless you try) :)

Something changed that day, and if it was me, then jeez, what will happen if I'm ever staring down someone else's barrel again and have to take off my gloves (if I'm wearing any), stand up straight, and get that perfect grip to avoid getting hot brass in the eye. Do you really expect that all of the LEOs out there armed with Glocks will be able to produce this grip that you're talking about in a time of need?

I will post more video of me shooting that day without BTF with that very gun on my Facebook page for those who are interested and link here once its done.

ETA: Wow! It looks like a few of us had the same reaction and were posting at the same time. :)

ithaca_deerslayer
10-07-2012, 08:04
RG, at around 10:00 you have good video showing the true problem. Eratic ejection :)

The reason grip doesn't matter is because there is not some linear relationship of fast side equals right side, and slower slide equals straight up, and slow slide equal left ejection.

Instead, I believe it was English here on GT who pointed out the randomness of it. Something (unclear to any of us) is allowing the exracted brass to be loose and bouncing around on its way out. There has even been super slow motion video showing this. Most of the time bounce goes out to the right, but sometimes it bounces and goes out to your face. This almost like drooping an empty shell on the ground and seeing how it bounces. Most of the time it will lay down, but sometimes it will bounce in a way that stands the shell up when done.

The problem is, in theory, a bounce during ejection will by chance cause a stovepipe or other jam. But perhaps due to the overall design of the Glock, this does not seem to happen. Doesn't seem to be reported. I had 1 stovepipe in my first 20 rounds of my g4 17. Then no problems but some brass to the face in the first 200 rounds. Then very few, almost none, brass to the face in the next couple thousand rounds and current.

I have scrape marks on my brass near the open end, about the width of a pencil tip. Not dented much, but some. I have brass marks on the top right front of the ejection port (looking as you would point the gun forward), just inside the port (not on the outside of the slide).

So bouncing goes on with my gun's ejection. I would rate my ejection, and overall performance of the gun, as an A. Guess it'd be an A+ if no scrapes on the shell and no brass marks on the port.

My guess is something wore on your gun to make the ejection even more bouncy and eratic. If Win white box shells were made of abrassive material like a type of sandpaper, and you shot a couple boxes of them, and then your ejection got worse, and brass to the face started, that would make sense. I've never shot white box in mine.

While shells are not sandpaper, maybe some sort of wear has happened, and the bounce has gotten worse. Or maybe something happened to the recoil spring and slide speed changed. Grip changes slide speed, but usually not much. Maybe a big change (weakening through use, or other kind of change), in the recoil spring has changed slide speed more than grip. A light attached changes slide speed.

So either wear in the ejection parts, or a change in the slide speed, have created a bigger bounce in your ejection, and introduced even more randomness than there was before.

I get the sense the cost of the gun isn't much to you. So, leave Glock out of it. Play with the variables yourself. I challenge you in the name of backyard shooting science to see if you can fix the problem.

These are some variables to change one at a time (and then unchange to go on to the next variable). All the while shooting Lawman 124gr :)
-- clening the parts real good (let get dirty again to undo the change)
-- take the light off
-- new recoil spring
-- new extractor
-- new ejector.

Have faith in science, and that you can fix it. The gun is probably not possesed. The slide is probably ok, itself. The frame is probably ok. But other parts have worn and you can find out which one.

:)

RonS
10-07-2012, 08:14
Any way you could get video from above the gun? I would love for someone on GT to nail this issue.

Raleigh Glocker
10-07-2012, 08:17
The light was only on for WWB and only for one video clip. It was not on at any other time, though this is my wife's bedside gun and does need to run with the TLR2 in place.

I did have slomo of the ejection in the vid, and now that you mention it, the brass kinda comes out sideways. The same footage of my Gen 4 G23 that day shows the brass flipping end over end like you'd expect. I'll be sure to compare the two in my G23 vid that I hope to finish today (if the rain stops).

While I might be able to fix this with aftermarket parts, I do want to solve this with Glock factory parts. As you've gathered, it's not the cost- it's the principle of it. Also, in some small way, this might also serve as another data point for Glock in trying to fix this for everyone.

I don't buy the conspiracy that they don't care. They might be tired of dealing with it, and not everyone there might be empowered the way they want to do something, but I do think Glock wants this to end. :)

SJ 40
10-07-2012, 08:21
So, as long as you:
1. Don't wear gloves.
2. Stand up straight.
3. Grip a Glock with the "Glock Perfection" grip...

...you won't get BTF. :)

Regardless of what you think about 1-3 above, 24 years of doing it wrong has not resulted in BTF until now (with one noted exception). 900 rounds of doing it wrong has not resulted in BTF with this very gun. It also somehow doesn't happen when I shoot my Gen 2 G20, Gen 4 G23, USP40, P9C, 1911, Colt Anaconda... (OK, so it's hard to get BTF with the last one unless you try) :)

Something changed that day, and if it was me, then jeez, what will happen if I'm ever staring down someone else's barrel again and have to take off my gloves (if I'm wearing any), stand up straight, and get that perfect grip to avoid getting hot brass in the eye. Do you really expect that all of the LEOs out there armed with Glocks will be able to produce this grip that you're talking about in a time of need?

I will post more video of me shooting that day without BTF with that very gun on my Facebook page for those who are interested and link here once its done.

ETA: Wow! It looks like a few of us had the same reaction and were posting at the same time. :)It's not the way you are shooting some times it's just the gun.

I have and love shooting my Glocks,they function with any load I feed them with Perfection.
One thing all my Glocks have in common is they were all Produced prior to 12/2006,back when perfection was spelled with a capital P.
While I love my Glocks i'm not a fanboy,every company that has ever been or ever will be has had manufacturing problems .
The ones that address their problems and learn from them prosper,the ones that don't well they eventually fade away.
Glock should start taking this seriously if they don't they will loose whatever reputation they once had.
It's sad to watch a once great gun manufacturer ,that had the reputation for functioning no matter what go down hill.
SJ 40

Beanie-Bean
10-07-2012, 08:34
Correct RSA for the G17 and G19:

G17: 0-2-4 SPO # 8284
G19: 0-4-3 Part # 8703

He has the correct RSA for the G17/34.

4949shooter
10-07-2012, 08:38
I don't buy the conspiracy that they don't care. They might be tired of dealing with it, and not everyone there might be empowered the way they want to do something, but I do think Glock wants this to end. :)

This is your thread so I am not here to argue with you. I do want to point out that I never said or implied there was any "conspiracy." If you want my opinion (which maybe you don't), if the upper management at Glock really wanted this issue fixed it would have been done by now. This has been going on too long. Glock no doubt has invested a lot of money in the Gen 4, and they may not be willing to scrap the new program in order to get back to the basics of the old Glock. Why wouldn't they just manufacture their guns they way they did in the Gen 2 or early gen 3 days? If you think about it....dollars and cents (or sense).

Like I said, I am not here to argue with you. As a matter of fact, I thought your video was informative and enjoyable. And if you really want to know what I think, I think you should send your video to Glock. :wavey:

ithaca_deerslayer
10-07-2012, 08:58
I definitely had Glock parts in mind, but with you doing the fixing, not them.

If you can't get the parts yourself, maybe a GT Glock armorer would hook you up.

I could be wrong, but in my mind it seems one stupid part has worn or somehow changed. As long as you took any science lab course in HS and spent at least part of the time paying attention and not staring at the cheerleader next to you, you can figure this out!

A multi-million dollar company might not be able to fix the problem, but you can. The Wright brothers, with the help of an employee who could make engines, built a plane to fly, so you can do this :)

153
10-07-2012, 08:59
Raleigh Glocker,

Excellent video!

One Question:

Have you tired the .40 extractor?

One Observation:

Steel extractors shouldn't wear significently in 1000 rounds. But I have seen springs die in a heartbeat. Was all your shooting in the video done with the same magazine? This looks to me like a magazine or RSA issue. There are lots of different springs involved in extraction.

Raleigh Glocker
10-07-2012, 09:01
4949shooter, I didn't mean to sound like I was singling you out. I wasn't at all, and I understand that it seems like a mystery that this whole thing hasn't already been worked out. The cost of scrapping the Gen 4 altogether might be a lot more than we realize, just like the extent to which most Gen 4 users actually end up shooting enough to have a problem might be lower than we realize. :)

I will certainly be mentioning the video when I speak with Glock. Everyone I've spoken with there (for other non-CS things) has been very helpful, and I don't expect anything different this time.

Raleigh Glocker
10-07-2012, 09:05
Raleigh Glocker,

Excellent video!

One Question:

Have you tired the .40 extractor?

One Observation:

Steel extractors shouldn't wear significently in 1000 rounds. But I have seen springs die in a heartbeat. Was all your shooting in the video done with the same magazine? This looks to me like a magazine or RSA issue. There are lots of different springs involved in extraction.

Two different mags, both gave BTF.

I have not tried the 40 extractor- it definitely looks beefier than the 9mm extractor. Plus, though it is also MIM, it does not have the dip (October 2010 vintage).

The truth is that I love my G23 and I don't want to eff it up by putting its parts in the G17. It is my EDC, and I don't want it to go down by my own doing. :supergrin:

Raleigh Glocker
10-07-2012, 09:07
I definitely had Glock parts in mind, but with you doing the fixing, not them.

If you can't get the parts yourself, maybe a GT Glock armorer would hook you up.

I could be wrong, but in my mind it seems one stupid part has worn or somehow changed. As long as you took any science lab course in HS and spent at least part of the time paying attention and not staring at the cheerleader next to you, you can figure this out!

A multi-million dollar company might not be able to fix the problem, but you can. The Wright brothers, with the help of an employee who could make engines, built a plane to fly, so you can do this :)

Yep. I truly expected to see something amiss with the extractor, but I didn't. I will be taking hi-res photos of that and other parts later, comparing those to the ones in my Gen 4 G23. Maybe it will be apparent at that point.

RonS
10-07-2012, 09:07
Anybody who has worked in an organization of any size is familiar with the concept of institutional inertia. Also groupthink. Twenty people in a room discussing something controversial and 5 of them are thinking, "This is BS, this isn't right, why won't anyone speak up?" But no one does.

Someone sat in a conference room at CocaCola and thought, "Man, this New Coke thing sounds really shaky, if the marketing guys are wrong, we are so screwed."

Glock almost certainly has the data to determine the cause of this problem. The question is, are they willing to examine it with an open mind and tell some project manager that some critical improvement on a part isn't working?

Arc Angel
10-07-2012, 09:24
A. You're breaking your wrists when you are getting BTF. Plain as day to see.

B. lose the operator gloves as they are over the top for the pistol range

C. make shorter vids that are to the point.

What! :shocked:

Listen, I've got more than 50 years of pistol shooting experience; the last ten of which I've been certified as a pistol training instructor. All I've got to do is stand at a 3/4 angle behind a shooter and watch him shoot for about 30 seconds. Thereafter, I know what that shooter can or can't do with a pistol; what he's doing right; and what he's doing wrong. (I’m even able to tell how well-coordinated a shooter is, and - depending upon the gunman’s personal attitude and personality - how tough, or easy it's going to be to bring him around!)

You are NOT limp-wristing (or, 'breaking') your wrist when you fire; and, yes, I'll agree that you've been shooting pistol for awhile, now. You're NOT new to the game. In fact, you have a tendency to slightly arc your pistol’s muzzle upward until you get warmed up; (So do I!) :supergrin: but then you straighten out; and I'm able to actually see the force of recoil passing through your elbows and terminating across your shoulders. (Not something you’ll see in an amateur pistol shooter.)

The accusation that you are breaking your wrist has been made by an, 'Internet gun expert' who would do better if he kept his opinions (or, at least, this particular opinion) to himself; but, hey, this is the Internet; people like him actually DO have, ‘a license’; and we, both, know that's never going to happen, anyway. :freak:

As for the gloves? They're your choice. From the look of your targets the gloves certainly aren't hurting your accuracy. Gloves, or a wrap-around rubber grip like I use on my Glocks can actually help certain people, under certain circumstances, to control a pistol better and shoot straighter. Personally, I don't care whether a shooter wears them, or not. In fact for most of my life I've worn half-finger gloves while shooting; and several observers have described my ability to use a rifle as either unreal or, 'frigg 'in surrealistic'. (Whatever that means?) :supergrin:

Your video is fine; and I thank you for it.

Good review, this is happening to quite a few people at the 800-1000 round mark. I'm starting to think Gaston pissed off a Gypsy a couple years back and she cursed him.

You’re funny! :thumbsup:

Well, ........ I went through more than 3,000 rounds of Wal-Mart's, 'finest ammo' before this problem showed up! By the time I had over $1,300.00 invested in my G-19(RTF2), and was, 'committed' to the gun. Unlike Gaston Glock I have personal scruples against passing off a defective product on someone else; so, now that I know the gun has a problem, it's up to me to either get the problem solved or, 'eat' the pistol. (Maybe with some nice warm Wiener Schnitzel?)

My Glock, also, has a #2, ‘dipped’ extractor. Originally, this extractor was slightly oversized, (And NOW I know, 'Why'!) and required high quality SD ammo in order to function. I polished the flats in order to make it work more smoothly; and up to and just past the 3,000 round mark, everything was fine; but then, ……

I’ve now spent a couple of hundred dollars trying to figure this mechanical anomaly out. (Yes, I’ve been reading Randy Lee’s posts over on that other gun forum, too. I agree with much, but not all, of what Mr. Lee has to offer.) The extractor claw geometry is involved; so is even the slightest wear that occurs to the extractor, itself.

The focal point of this problem seems to be how tightly the cartridge head is held against the breech-face. Once the head starts slipping downward, voila, you’ve got a BTF problem! There are, also, secondary issues: Spring fatigue seems to occur in the SLB spring; and this weakens extraction/ejection, too. As another poster has pointed out: Anything that impedes the movement of the EDP rod is, also, going to weaken (or slow down) ejection. This is, ‘Why’ I believe both a Wolff Gunsprings, ‘extractor spring’ as well as the White Sound, ‘HRED’ plunger rod tend to improve faulty ejection; however, the principal problem continues to revolve around the sloppy geometry of the extractor, itself.

In your video all the, now, classic symptoms are present: High arcing, shortly thrown brass; right and left ejection, last round, ‘dribbles’; and genuinely dangerous ejected brass-to-the-face. I have my own strong suspicions as to, ‘Why’ these things are happening; but, I don’t feel like, ‘writing a book’ this morning.

Quickly, the extractor’s overall dimensions are too loose; the claw geometry is wrong; the sintered metal MIM compound is too soft, too imprecisely formed, and doesn’t wear anywhere near as well as it should; (How am I doing!) and certain Glock breech-faces are - ever so slightly - set back and allow extracted brass to slip downward more than others. (Yes, unfortunately, we’re discussing mechanical tolerances that are very small - Perhaps even measured in thousandths of an inch.)

Personally, I would NOT send your troublesome pistol back to Smyrna. I mean, exactly what do you expect that fine pack of duplicitous, ‘gun monkeys’ to do with your funky Glock? All you're going to get is a couple of new parts, that might work for awhile, and a brief note that says something like, 'Pistol is within specification'.

:tongueout:

My suggestion would be to do THIS, instead:

(1) Make sure you have a #30274 or #28926 ejector in your Glock.

(2) If your problem Glock is a 9mm then use an; ‘HRED’ EDP Rod (Mine is highly polished.) or, regardless of whether you're using a 9mm or 40 caliber, get yourself some excellent Wolff Gunsprings’, ‘Extractor springs’.

3. Polish your factory-stock EDP rod so that it moves very smoothly inside the channel. (If your channel is rough you’re going to have to find a way to smooth out the interior diameter - It’s a nuisance; but it can be done.) Finally,

4. Do, indeed, order a new Apex Tactical extractor for your Glock. I’m still waiting on my Apex extractor; but after employing these other changes I’ve finally got my own funky Glock BTF problem 97 or 98% under control; and I’m getting comparatively low arcing, minimally adequate 3 to 4 foot, all right-side ejection, too. (I have never had a last round dribble problem with my G-19(RTF2); but I do concur that some Glocks NEED a round in the magazine in order to eject well).

Gabe,

A while back a few had luck with using a 40 S&W extractor.
How did that work out?

This is true; however, all a 40 caliber extractor did for me was to pinch the case heads too tightly against the breech-face. This expedient solution DOES hold the extracted case head more tightly against the breech; but it, also, causes other problems of its own.

ithaca_deerslayer
10-07-2012, 09:26
Anybody who has worked in an organization of any size is familiar with the concept of institutional inertia. Also groupthink. Twenty people in a room discussing something controversial and 5 of them are thinking, "This is BS, this isn't right, why won't anyone speak up?" But no one does.

Someone sat in a conference room at CocaCola and thought, "Man, this New Coke thing sounds really shaky, if the marketing guys are wrong, we are so screwed."

Glock almost certainly has the data to determine the cause of this problem. The question is, are they willing to examine it with an open mind and tell some project manager that some critical improvement on a part isn't working?

No doubt, just last week I was talking to my boss about a problem I brought up a year ago. Re-sent him emails from a year ago, and he added his perspective to it, and sent it up to another VP.

Somewheres higher up, people in charge make decisions about what is important to them regarding the organizational goals as they perceive them.

I have no trouble speaking up to my boss, but I don't go outside the chain of command (unless there was some criminal issue, then I would NOT Penn State it).

So some Glock engineer probably figured out the brass to the face problem a year ago, and told his boss. Right now the solution is probably sitting on some VP's desk. That VP may or may not understand it, may or may not care, may or may not tell anyone else about the fix, or maybe that VP discussed it in a room of other VP's and collectively they didn't act or they decided other priorities are more important.

4949shooter
10-07-2012, 09:53
4949shooter, I didn't mean to sound like I was singling you out. I wasn't at all, and I understand that it seems like a mystery that this whole thing hasn't already been worked out. The cost of scrapping the Gen 4 altogether might be a lot more than we realize, just like the extent to which most Gen 4 users actually end up shooting enough to have a problem might be lower than we realize. :)

I will certainly be mentioning the video when I speak with Glock. Everyone I've spoken with there (for other non-CS things) has been very helpful, and I don't expect anything different this time.

No worries my friend. :wavey:

I hope you can get this issue resolved. I am sure many of us will be watching this thread to see how Glock handles the problem.

Raleigh Glocker
10-07-2012, 10:21
About sending it to Glock...

What I really should have said is that I was planning to call Glock and see what they'd be willing to send me. I don't need them to do the work.

That said, I want to see this fixed with Glock parts that Glock armorers say to use first. This is because that's what most Gen 4 users are going to do if they have problems. If I let them do their best and it still doesn't work, I'll go the aftermarket/home gunsmith way.

One important thing to note- this G17 has never failed in any way no matter what I put through it or how I held it. Heck, it even cycled and locked back fully submerged with two different types of ammo (done for a different video on my channel).

Yes, BTF is a problem that needs to be addressed, but this is still an extremely reliable design.

Fire_Medic
10-07-2012, 10:37
Correct RSA for the G17 and G19:

G17: 0-2-4 SPO # 8284
G19: 0-4-3 Part # 8703

He has the correct RSA for the G17/34.

100% correct sorry for the misinformation on my part.

DEADEYEGUY
10-07-2012, 10:38
First GEN4 G19 made 800 rounds beore problems. Last one they sent to me went 2000 rounds before BTF problem. Something is obviously wearing out on these guns. most likely the extractor. Different levels of build quality or lack their of probably determine how long it takes for it to start.

Fire_Medic
10-07-2012, 10:45
One important thing to note- this G17 has never failed in any way no matter what I put through it or how I held it. Heck, it even cycled and locked back fully submerged with two different types of ammo (done for a different video on my channel).

Yes, BTF is a problem that needs to be addressed, but this is still an extremely reliable design.

I will echo the above, I have not had a stoppage with the pistol but the ejection has become more erratic as the rounds pile on and the frequency of the brass to my face has increased as well.


Greg- I have not yet tried the 40 extractor, I did think about that but in doing research found that initially LW had the 9 and 40 parts mixed up and don't know where they stand now, so would I still need the 40 part or is the 9mm one the correct part now.

I should have the parts in from Smyrna this week sometime and will go from there.

As for the question on whether the new part is MIM or not, I have no clue, did not think to ask, but I believe it would be safe to assume the new part still is, the expense of changing the manufacturing process of this part would be up there so I don't think in the grand scheme of things there have been enough problematic pistols to warrant this.

I will also echo the other statement made about the round count of the average joes gun, most people don't put a few thousand rounds through a gun in a quarter of the year and on a lot of the reports of issues they started at about 1K rounds or higher.

I will update here as well on the parts I receive and the outcome if its ok with the OP, better than having multiple threads on the same subject.

in the mean time my M&P 45's are incoming and will be a nice addition to the safe and the holster. :supergrin:

Slackinoff
10-07-2012, 10:46
Awesome post Arc Angel. Thanks for the well written summary. I just broke 1k through my g19 and if start to have problems I will refer to your post for help.

9mmdude
10-07-2012, 10:48
My Gen4 17 started acting up right around the 1000 round count. From 1000 rounds until 1500 rounds I had brass to the face and numerous stove pipes. (1 every 30 or so rounds). Glock replaced my ejector and the last range trip of a couple of hundred rounds showed the problem to be resolved; no brass to the face and no stove pipes. I just hope it lasts.

zee90
10-07-2012, 11:00
So are the newer gen4's still being produced with MiM extractors? Or has Glock done something about this? I read they changed them in Nov 2011 but wondering if anyone can confirm this.

Beretta92guy
10-07-2012, 11:05
So, you're saying that I'm breaking my wrists with a two-handed grip moreso than when I'm barely holding the pistol in the first clip and getting normal ejection? Heck, I do the tea cup pinky and all... :dunno:

I've got 24 years shooting Glocks with no brass to face except for the first few boxes I ran through my brand new Gen 4 G23 two years ago. It was known then that the RSA was stiff and needed to be broken in, so it didn't bother me.

I've got countless posts here on Gen 4 threads saying, "Mine eject great, thanks!" I've used that G17 in other videos for my YouTube channel, showing beautiful ejection.

I shot 500 rounds that day out of the G17, giving it every chance to stop ejecting BTF. It did not. Once it started, the ejection kept hitting my shoulder and face and going over my head. I practically choked the brown out of it, and it still sent brass towards my shoulder and head.

As to point "C.", I realize that some just want to see one single clip of only shooting. The video of my Gen 4 G23 I'm finishing today will be more to your liking, I think.

That said, I make the kind of video I like to watch, and luckily, others do, too. I appreciate you taking the time to watch it and comment, though.

Raleigh Glocker,

please excuse the village-idiot for that post, every forum has one....

great video.....what is wrong with the glock is the slides are out-of-spec. the guns start out running fine but once the extractor gets smoothed-out and broken-in, thats when the out-of-spec slide starts causing problems....

why some guns have it and some don't, my opinion is that glock has several production lines making slides, and one or more of the machines has been cutting too much material off of the extractor port......

dhgeyer
10-07-2012, 11:11
Here's another data point. I have pretty much gone to shooting all handloads, mostly 115 grain bullets (HP and FMJ) over 6.2 grains of Unique with a CCI 500 primer in various brands of cases. This is 1/10 th of a grain down from the max load. These were chronographed at 1236 fps average, which is about what Gold Dot 115's move at out of a 4" barrel. I have had no BTF with these, and they all go out either to the right or to the right and up, but always with enough oomph to not hit me. And they are accurate.

A week or so ago I tried a few WWB, and immediately had the BTF problem. This is with a Lone Wolf Distributers extractor, a White Sound Defense extra power extractor spring, and my SLB and EDP.

Maybe one reason Glock hasn't set this problem as a high priority (or as high as we'd prefer) is that they know the guns work well with the ammo they were designed to shoot.

Fire_Medic
10-07-2012, 11:16
Here's another data point. I have pretty much gone to shooting all handloads, mostly 115 grain bullets (HP and FMJ) over 6.2 grains of Unique with a CCI 500 primer in various brands of cases. This is 1/10 th of a grain down from the max load. These were chronographed at 1236 fps average, which is about what Gold Dot 115's move at out of a 4" barrel. I have had no BTF with these, and they all go out either to the right or to the right and up, but always with enough oomph to not hit me. And they are accurate.

A week or so ago I tried a few WWB, and immediately had the BTF problem. This is with a Lone Wolf Distributers extractor, a White Sound Defense extra power extractor spring, and my SLB and EDP.

Maybe one reason Glock hasn't set this problem as a high priority (or as high as we'd prefer) is that they know the guns work well with the ammo they were designed to shoot.

My load is as follows and the issues I am having are regardless of ammo:

Montana Gold or Xtreme 124gr FMJ/Plated
Once fired brass
Wolf/CCI primers
5.1 gr Winchester WSF
OAL 1.120

Have not chrono-graphed it, but been shooting this for a couple of years in various 9MM's with no issues, and have it on good authority this load mimmics the NATO 124gr ball ammo.

Last range trip I did buy a box of Independence 115gr FMJ, and one of PMC 115gr as well, and they BTF was even worse with that ammo, but still happening with my hand loads.

FM

faawrenchbndr
10-07-2012, 11:17
Tons of great thought & opinions in this thread,......thanks Guys! :wavey:

MikeG36
10-07-2012, 11:20
Nice video. I registered on youtube today just so I could like it.

Tiro Fijo
10-07-2012, 11:35
Raleigh Glocker,

please excuse the village-idiot for that post, every forum has one....

great video.....what is wrong with the glock is the slides are out-of-spec. the guns start out running fine but once the extractor gets smoothed-out and broken-in, thats when the out-of-spec slide starts causing problems....

why some guns have it and some don't, my opinion is that glock has several production lines making slides, and one or more of the machines has been cutting too much material off of the extractor port......


Still on your "Farewell" Tour? :upeyes:

:rofl:

Raleigh Glocker
10-07-2012, 11:50
Maybe one reason Glock hasn't set this problem as a high priority (or as high as we'd prefer) is that they know the guns work well with the ammo they were designed to shoot.

I mention this in the video right before getting beaned by Ranger T-Series 127gr +p+. As mentioned, they (and even weak ammo) worked great until that very day. The rest of the day, I got shoulder and head hits with every mag, no matter what I put in it.

That contrasts with my Gen 4 G23 which remains awesome with 2k rounds in it. It even forcefully ejected the WWB crap I made it eat for the first time that day. :)

It's hard for me to justify buying WWB when I can buy Speer more cheaply in bulk from sgammo.com and the like. I chrono'd everything that day, and the Speer is superior in every way. I knew WWB was bad, but when you get 1224fps and 1081fps in the same mag that you can actually feel the difference...:faint:

Beanie-Bean
10-07-2012, 11:56
100% correct sorry for the misinformation on my part.

Just tryin' to help out, FM--I had to go to the beginning of the thread to make sure I knew which pistol he was having problems with (a G17 or G19...)

I'm hoping (like a lot of folks are) that there is a fix to all of this, and that Glock will make good to get everyone replacement parts needed to get their firearms in proper working order.

I'll contact them next week to see what their current parts list looks like. With the recent articles posted here regarding new/flat/non-MIM extractors, along with SLBs, I'll probably order a few extras just to have in the toolbox in case I start seeing some weirdo stuff happening.

Most of the time, I can correlate the powder charges I'm loading up with how the brass ejects from the pistols. As long as I'm loading on the hot-side of the scale, stock parts work just fine for me.

Raleigh Glocker
10-07-2012, 13:29
I just uploaded hi-res photos of the ejector, extractor, SLB feed ramp, etc., up on my Facebook page. You can see them here:
Gen 4 G17 Photo Album (http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.427329803992880.96067.366902800035581&type=1&l=29e58468dc)

I also uploaded footage from earlier that day showing normal ejection from this pistol. The quality got screwed up by Facebook's compression, but it shows everything you need to see:
Gen 4 G17 Normal Ejection Video (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=165593416912052)

Bradd D
10-07-2012, 13:32
+1!




Yeah, but you're doing it wrong that's why you're getting BTF.

Ditch the gloves, stand up straight ( I've never understood the "Look at my butt, ain't it cute?" stance ) learn how to grip your Glock and the BTF problem will go away.

Thanks for posting the video because it clears shows what you are doing wrong.

Pretty simple.

Go sit down and let the grown-ups talk.

Arc Angel
10-07-2012, 13:34
........ Yes, BTF is a problem that needs to be addressed, but this is still an extremely reliable design.

:headscratch: How can you say that?

Personally I'd rather be a gunman than a gunman's target. All it takes is ONE red hot case to the eye and you're out of the fight!

One other thing: When I was a small boy my mother told me, 'Son, if you ever want to succeed at anything in your life, you're going to have to understand the problem for yourself.' 'Losers are people who rely on others to do their thinking for them; they don't really understand what they're up against; and, consequently, they get burned.'

When the day comes that I need Glock, Smyrna to do my thinking for me ....... I'll sell all my guns and take up fishing. ;)



PS: The Facebook photos you've just posted show all the symptomatic evidence of what's going wrong with your F'd up Glock! Look at the marks in the metal; the trail is right there in front of you. :freak:

plouffedaddy
10-07-2012, 13:48
And if you really want to know what I think, I think you should send your
video to Glock


I agree. I sent my problem gun to Glock twice and twice it came back with some new parts and same problems. I sent the video in with the gun the 3rd time and magically I got a new, well functioning, gun back :supergrin:

Raleigh Glocker
10-07-2012, 13:51
:headscratch: How can you say that?

Personally I'd rather be a gunman than a gunman's target. All it takes is ONE red hot case to the eye and you're out of the fight!

One other thing: When I was a small boy my mother told me, 'Son, if you ever want to succeed at anything in your life, you're going to have to understand the problem for yourself.' 'Losers are people who rely on others to do their thinking for them; they don't really understand what they're up against; and, consequently, they get burned.'

When the day comes that I need Glock, Smyrna to do my thinking for me ....... I'll sell all my guns and take up fishing. ;)

Sure, BTF is a gray area with regards to what you might call "reliable function," but I'd rather a gun go "bang" and hit me with brass than a gun go "click" or fail to cycle the next round.

I'm not making these videos for you or anyone else that keeps telling me I should just fix this myself. :) I want to see what Glock does because that's the best that most Gen 4 owners will ever get. Think of it as smoking out everything you get when you buy a Glock, including customer service/warranty work.

I've got plenty of guns I tinker with because that's their nature (ARs I've built myself, the Handi Rifle featured in another video that's giving me fits with vertical stringing, etc.). This is a chance to define the "Glock experience" for the average customer. You might consider them "losers," by your definition, but I don't judge those who buy Glocks specifically because they are just supposed to work that harshly. :supergrin:

walrus108
10-07-2012, 13:54
Go sit down and let the grown-ups talk.

Amen! I can't believe the "stand up straight" remark. I guess all those top competitive shooters out there don't know how to stand yet. Crazy.

I have had this problem with my G20sf also. Got a shell stuck between my shooting glasses and my forehead. Burnt me pretty good. I fixed it (so far) by replacing the extractor with an older style without the loaded chamber bump. This might be a good fix but I'm not sure of the legality since technically I removed a 'safety' device. But it has fixed it. I have not got my round count up to where I'd consider it definitely fixed yet though. I'll post back after my in a few weeks after I have 1000+ rounds more through it.

dhgeyer
10-07-2012, 13:55
I mention this in the video right before getting beaned by Ranger T-Series 127gr +p+. As mentioned, they (and even weak ammo) worked great until that very day.

OK, so much for that theory. Not the weak ammo.

Here's another thing I noticed. At precisely two minutes and fifty seconds into the video, you show the G17 in profile close up. The assembly tensioning the extractor is in backwards. The spring loaded bearing (SLB) is plainly visible just behind the extractor with a coil of the spring showing also. Did you, just by any chance, have the pistol in this condition when you were shooting the video? The spring coil that is showing could easily bind on the front of the channel it's in, as that end is quite sharp (sharp enough to chew up the front of the extractor depressor plunger after just a few hundred rounds).

Here's a screen shot I took from your video showing what I am talking about.

http://www.gallery1700.net/linkto/backward.jpg

icelandicstud
10-07-2012, 14:06
imo new lock RSA is too strong for 9mm.

Raleigh Glocker
10-07-2012, 14:06
OK, so much for that theory. Not the weak ammo.

Here's another thing I noticed. At precisely two minutes and fifty seconds into the video, you show the G17 in profile close up. The assembly tensioning the extractor is in backwards. The spring loaded bearing (SLB) is plainly visible just behind the extractor with a coil of the spring showing also. Did you, just by any chance, have the pistol in this condition when you were shooting the video? The spring coil that is showing could easily bind on the front of the channel it's in, as that end is quite sharp (sharp enough to chew up the front of the extractor depressor plunger after just a few hundred rounds).

Here's a screen shot I took from your video showing what I am talking about.

http://www.gallery1700.net/linkto/backward.jpg
Doh! Yes, I caught that later, but I didn't realize it was that obvious on the video. The gun was never fired that way.

I will add an annotation to the YouTube video.

dhgeyer
10-07-2012, 14:14
Doh! Yes, I caught that later, but I didn't realize it was that obvious on the video. The gun was never fired that way.

I will add an annotation to the YouTube video.

Darn! That would have been such an easy answer and fix.

Raleigh Glocker
10-07-2012, 14:29
Darn! That would have been such an easy answer and fix.

I don't know how long the plastic plunger would've lasted up against the extractor. If you look at the photos I linked to above, the bearing itself has some pretty good grooves being worn into it.

This slide was never detail stripped before setting up for the close-up, FWIW. I was just in a rush to get that clip finished because I was losing daylight fast, and I goobered the SLB orientation putting the slide back together for that one shot.

I honestly didn't even notice that you could make it out in the video. You certainly have an eye for detail.

mike from philly
10-07-2012, 15:03
Ral.G. .... do you have any old magazines? The ones before the cut outs. When you hit a run of BTF, switch the mags to the old style. See if that makes a difference.

My hypothesis is that the mags are flexing just enough to interfere with the ejecting brass.

bunk22
10-07-2012, 15:18
A. You're breaking your wrists when you are getting BTF. Plain as day to see.

B. lose the operator gloves as they are over the top for the pistol range

C. make shorter vids that are to the point.

If you could, just post up the video you've done demonstrating the appropriate way to shoot a Glock, specifically a "malfunctioning" one. Just a link will do. Thanks.

cowboy1964
10-07-2012, 15:21
A. You're breaking your wrists when you are getting BTF. Plain as day to see.


I didn't see that. All I see is brass going everywhere.

So tired of the excusers.

cowboy1964
10-07-2012, 15:22
Ral.G. .... do you have any old magazines? The ones before the cut outs. When you hit a run of BTF, switch the mags to the old style. See if that makes a difference.

My hypothesis is that the mags are flexing just enough to interfere with the ejecting brass.

Why did he have no problems for the first xxx rounds?

cowboy1964
10-07-2012, 15:24
I agree. I sent my problem gun to Glock twice and twice it came back with some new parts and same problems. I sent the video in with the gun the 3rd time and magically I got a new, well functioning, gun back :supergrin:

How did you "send the video in"? You actually made a DVD or what?

RonS
10-07-2012, 15:45
OP, I agree 100% with your assessment and motivations. I've been shooting for just over 50 years, mostly handguns and I have guns I tinker with like my 1911s but this is a Glock. If you can't trust a Glock, what can you trust?

Raleigh Glocker
10-07-2012, 18:38
Ral.G. .... do you have any old magazines? The ones before the cut outs. When you hit a run of BTF, switch the mags to the old style. See if that makes a difference.

My hypothesis is that the mags are flexing just enough to interfere with the ejecting brass.

I don't have any 9mm mags without the ambi cut. That said, I was using two randomly selected mags out of the 10 I own, and both started the day cycling fine, ending the day with BTF.

Interesting idea, though.

FFR Spyder GT
10-07-2012, 22:14
So, as long as you:
1. Don't wear gloves.
2. Stand up straight.
3. Grip a Glock with the "Glock Perfection" grip...

...you won't get BTF. :)

Regardless of what you think about 1-3 above, 24 years of doing it wrong has not resulted in BTF until now (with one noted exception). 900 rounds of doing it wrong has not resulted in BTF with this very gun. It also somehow doesn't happen when I shoot my Gen 2 G20, Gen 4 G23, USP40, P9C, 1911, Colt Anaconda... (OK, so it's hard to get BTF with the last one unless you try) :)

Something changed that day, and if it was me, then jeez, what will happen if I'm ever staring down someone else's barrel again and have to take off my gloves (if I'm wearing any), stand up straight, and get that perfect grip to avoid getting hot brass in the eye. Do you really expect that all of the LEOs out there armed with Glocks will be able to produce this grip that you're talking about in a time of need?

I will post more video of me shooting that day without BTF with that very gun on my Facebook page for those who are interested and link here once its done.

ETA: Wow! It looks like a few of us had the same reaction and were posting at the same time. :)

Yeah, all the people with the same reaction have BTF problems and those that are telling you what you're doing wrong don't.

Gee, I think is see a pattern.

Hawaiiglock
10-08-2012, 00:16
Question, if under powered ammo was the culprit for all the problems that Glock's are having, wouldn't the issue present itself right out of the box and not 1000 rounds later when the guns are broken in? On a brand new gun everything is tight and the springs are stiff, if under powered ammo was an issue wouldn't new guns choke on it?

I have two gen 3 9mm's, a 19 and 26. I have about 600 rounds through each gun, all WWB (and a few boxes of Wolf steel). The 19 hasn't missed a beat, around the 200 round mark the 26 had two BTF out of the same mag, then no issues after that. It will be at least another 6 months until I get over the 1000 round mark, if there is a problem it would be nice to have a factory fix.

9mmdude
10-08-2012, 03:30
Question, if under powered ammo was the culprit for all the problems that Glock's are having, wouldn't the issue present itself right out of the box and not 1000 rounds later when the guns are broken in? On a brand new gun everything is tight and the springs are stiff, if under powered ammo was an issue wouldn't new guns choke on it? ....................

No one can argue that! Good point!

larson1122
10-08-2012, 04:43
Yeah, but you're doing it wrong that's why you're getting BTF.

Ditch the gloves, stand up straight ( I've never understood the "Look at my butt, ain't it cute?" stance ) learn how to grip your Glock and the BTF problem will go away.

Thanks for posting the video because it clears shows what you are doing wrong.

Pretty simple.

Yeah, all the people with the same reaction have BTF problems and those that are telling you what you're doing wrong don't.

Gee, I think is see a pattern.

The "pattern" is that some guns have the problem, and some don't. Period. To state that wearing gloves causes erratic ejection is utterly ridiculous.

Arc Angel
10-08-2012, 06:50
OK, so much for that theory. Not the weak ammo.

Here's another thing I noticed. At precisely two minutes and fifty seconds into the video, you show the G17 in profile close up. The assembly tensioning the extractor is in backwards. The spring loaded bearing (SLB) is plainly visible just behind the extractor with a coil of the spring showing also. Did you, just by any chance, have the pistol in this condition when you were shooting the video? The spring coil that is showing could easily bind on the front of the channel it's in, as that end is quite sharp (sharp enough to chew up the front of the extractor depressor plunger after just a few hundred rounds).

Here's a screen shot I took from your video showing what I am talking about.

http://www.gallery1700.net/linkto/backward.jpg

:wow: Wow! dhgeyer, you get, 'The Catch Of The Day Award'!

I wish I had your eyesight! :thumbsup:

Nevertheless, that backwards EDP rod doesn't explain the rub marks on the actual head of Raleigh Glocker's EDP rod. That a backwards rod will adversely affect extraction/ejection is a given. The only question is, 'By how much?'

I've read reports from shooters who had their EDP rods in backwards. In an otherwise properly functioning Glock it didn't seem to make much difference; the Glock still worked. So the question becomes, 'What effect does this mistake have on an improperly functioning Glock pistol?' I'm going to suggest that this would only further weaken already weak ejection; BUT, at no time in the past have I ever heard of this causing a BTF problem. BTF problems with Glock pistols are a relatively recent problem.



NOTE: Raleigh Glocker, if you want to, 'get in bed' with Glock, Smyrna that's entirely your business; but, personally, I'm more careful about whom I sleep with. ;)

DesertEagle
10-08-2012, 07:58
A. You're breaking your wrists when you are getting BTF. Plain as day to see.

B. lose the operator gloves as they are over the top for the pistol range

C. make shorter vids that are to the point.

A. So since he has stated and demonstrated that initially it was ejecting fine, does this mean you think he's intentionally allowing it to happen just to prove some sort of point?

B. Maybe they're comfortable for him - not relevant, doesn't affect you at all, red-herring.

C. I quite enjoy his videos, he goes into detail about the nature of the part involved and whatnot, then does several shooting strings - each one being relevant to the video in that it is testing different ammo. Testing variables to eliminate causes is part of the scientific method to try to determine the source of the issue, hence it is valid in that context.

Seems more like you're just either in a bad mood, or have something against him personally for some reason, especially with point B.

Bottom line - if you don't like his style, don't watch. If this video is too long for you, watch his other ones that fit your preferences.

Raleigh Glocker
10-08-2012, 08:10
:wow: Wow! dhgeyer, you get, 'The Catch Of The Day Award'!

I wish I had your eyesight! :thumbsup:

Nevertheless, that backwards EDP rod doesn't explain the rub marks on the actual head of Raleigh Glocker's EDP rod. That a backwards rod will adversely affect extraction/ejection is a given. The only question is, 'By how much?'

I've read reports from shooters who had their EDP rods in backwards. In an otherwise properly functioning Glock it didn't seem to make much difference; the Glock still worked. So the question becomes, 'What effect does this mistake have on an improperly functioning Glock pistol?' I'm going to suggest that this would only further weaken already weak ejection; BUT, at no time in the past have I ever heard of this causing a BTF problem. BTF problems with Glock pistols are a relatively recent problem.



NOTE: Raleigh Glocker, if you want to, 'get in bed' with Glock, Smyrna that's entirely your business; but, personally, I'm more careful about whom I sleep with. ;)

That was an amazing catch- one other viewer also caught it and posted on m4carbine.net about it.

Like I mentioned, the G17 was never fired this way, and I just inserted stills into the Gen 4 G23 companion video I'm working on showing the G17's SLB in the correct orientation that day at the range.

I'm still at a loss here about "getting in bed" with Glock. All I am doing is seeing how they handle it so that I can share that on my YouTube channel for those who aren't apt to try to fix things themselves.

To me, this is just a tool that is easily replaced with countless others out there, including other Gen 4 G17s. Glock can't hurt me by being involved with this. If they screw it up, no big deal. I will just take over and do all the same things I'd be doing to it now without their input. That's what I would report in my follow up video, and others will be better for it. If they get it right, I can report on that.

This is not a representation of my personal motivation to understand the world around me or me trying to get cozy with Glock. I think you're reading way too much into this. Heck, if that were my plan, this video was certainly a weird way of doing it.

I do appreciate your participation in this thread.

plouffedaddy
10-08-2012, 08:21
How did you "send the video in"? You actually made a DVD or what?

When I called I asked for their manager's email address. The CS rep was very professional and provided it to me; emailed the link and shipped the gun back. Had a new gun in 8 days.

MAP
10-08-2012, 08:37
I would be curious to know what steps Glock is taking to correct these issues, if any. Who knows? Glock inc. might be selling so many pistols that they don't care about the (possibly few) numbers that exhibit BTF.

My guess is that most gun owners don't shoot thousands of rounds through their guns like we do. . .

I was at a Glock Armorers class last week. Glock's response to the erratic ejection issue is:

(pick one or more)
It's not a wide spread problem that is hyped by the internet;
Check the ejector and RSA for the correct part;
If you have the correct ejector and RSA, send the pistol in for repair;
It could be caused by weak ammo;
It could be cause by limp wristing.

The instructor said it was not an extractor issue!

With all of these possibilities Glock has yet to explain why older Gen3 9mm Glocks run perfectly while newer Gen3 and Gen4 9mms are having issues.

I love my Gen4 9mms and hope the Apex extractor solves the erratic ejection issues.

Mike

dhgeyer
10-08-2012, 08:44
:wow: Wow! dhgeyer, you get, 'The Catch Of The Day Award'!

I wish I had your eyesight! :thumbsup:

Nevertheless, that backwards EDP rod doesn't explain the rub marks on the actual head of Raleigh Glocker's EDP rod. That a backwards rod will adversely affect extraction/ejection is a given. The only question is, 'By how much?'

My eyesight isn't all that great. I've just been taking my slide apart and putting it back together again so much lately (trying out homemade and aftermarket extractor parts) that it jumped out at me.

RG has stated that the gun was never fired in that condition, so it's really a moot point.

The rub marks on the EDP has been noticed and discussed in other threads. I don't know if there is a consensus on this (what causes it and what it does), but I have my opinion. It happened to mine also. I noticed it after JBS pointed it out in another thread. My gun had about 500 rounds on it at that point. I can't say when it would have become visible had I been watching for it. I attribute this wear to a sharp edge on the front of the extractor assembly channel in the slide and the hardness of the slide. In my gun the original EDP is a loose enough fit in the channel that I would rule out binding.

JBS said that he has seen guns in his shop that had wear in this location that would almost surely impede steady tension on the extractor. I think that might be one small piece of the puzzle of why extraction/ejection can go bad on these guns after X number of rounds.

Arc Angel
10-08-2012, 09:16
....... This is not a representation of my personal motivation to understand the world around me or me trying to get cozy with Glock. I think you're reading way too much into this. Heck, if that were my plan, this video was certainly a weird way of doing it.

I do appreciate your participation in this thread.

:) Well, thank you!

As you can, probably, tell my personal experience with Glock, Smyrna hasn't been good; in fact, I've been flat-out lied to and on more than one occasion. To my mind it makes no sense to spend between $40 and $60 dollars to send a pistol to Glock, Smyrna only to get, 'the bum's rush' and some lame-ass excuse as to why your Glock isn't working.

Most of my life I carried very expensive 1911 pattern pistols. Then I decided it didn't make a whole lot of sense to carry Austin Behlert, 'heirloom quality' 1911's (and Browning P-35's) around with me all day long. So, I took the, 'cheap plastic pistol plunge'. :supergrin:

Absolutely trouble-free and 100% reliable my Glocks have not been. The first two I bought were actually erratic life-threatening performers and had serious OOB problems. The factory did nothing but repeatedly lie to me about, 'Why' these pistols didn't work.

My eyesight remained in jeopardy the entire time I used them; AND, if the Portland Police Bureau and the Georgia State Patrol hadn't owned similar pistols and filed a joint lawsuit against Glock, GmbH/Inc. I would, in all probability, still be having problems with these pistols today.

(While I was using these defective Glocks a U.S. Secret Service Agent in NYC lost his eyesight when his G-21 exploded in his face! I consider myself very lucky to have been able to avoid the same unfortunate mishap and become another one of Glock, 'GmbH/Inc.'s hush-hush out of court settlements.)

Personally, I don't need to spend good money, lose a pistol for up to 3 months, and then get it back with some new parts (That I could have easily changed, myself, at my workbench) and a terse note that says something inane like, 'Pistol is within specification'.

More than once I've, also, had Smyrna tell me, 'Are you sure you're not limpwristing?' (This from people who weren't even born, yet, when I began pistol shooting!) I try to be philosophical about Glock pistols. They're cheap; they often work; and when they do work, they work well; BUT, Glock pistols don't always work; and they don't always work well.

To my mind the outstanding virtue of a Glock pistol is that with a few spare parts you can keep one up and running, 'forever'; and, with only a little technical knowledge and some other mechanical know-how, you can keep your Glock in good repair by working at home on your kitchen table.

Glocks are one of the cheapest pistols ever manufactured; that's a fact! They are NOT, however, trouble-free. Over the past two years, or so, Glock, GmbH has been on a severe cost-cutting spree. I've got two old Glocks from 2003 that I finally got to work right; and they are now 100% dependable, too.

Compared to what I see in dealers' showcases, today, the slide finish is better; the internal steel parts and plating are better; and even the frames appear to be better made than a lot of what I look at. (The springs you can forget about! First thing I do with any Glock is throw all the factory, 'contract springs' away and replace them with superior Wolff Gunsprings.)

Here's exactly, 'How' I've come to see things: If I had to depend on Glock, Smyrna to keep my pistols up and running, ALL of my EDC's would be either SIG, Kimber, or CZ. I don't want anybody telling me, 'It's the ammunition;' or, 'You're probably limp-wristing the pistol.'

I teach other people how to shoot; I'm way way past having anyone teach me; I've known and sat for hours on end at the workbenches of some of the most talented gunsmiths in America, too. I naturally resent it when some smug factory con artist tries to, 'pull the wool over my eyes' by offering lame excuses about why I can't get his cheap - and getting ever cheaper - plastic pistol to work properly. :freak:

Before this most recent Glock problem is all said and done, I'll get my BTF problem solved too. So far I've lost (or, depending upon your viewpoint, wasted) a couple of hundred dollars; it looks like I'm going to have to spend some more money, too; but, in the end, I'll have another cheap plastic Glock pistol for an EDC that doesn't endanger my eyesight every time I pull the trigger.

Is Glock, Smyrna going to have anything to do with a final solution to my BTF problems? Probably not, and certainly not anytime soon either. Historically, it would take direct involvement from the New York City Police Department, or The Portland Police Bureau in order to accomplish that! ;)

Arc Angel
10-08-2012, 09:26
....... The rub marks on the EDP has been noticed and discussed in other threads. I don't know if there is a consensus on this (what causes it and what it does), but I have my opinion. It happened to mine also. I noticed it after JSB pointed it out in another thread. My gun had about 500 rounds on it at that point. I can't say when it would have become visible had I been watching for it. I attribute this wear to a sharp edge on the front of the extractor assembly channel in the slide and the hardness of the slide. In my gun the original EDP is a loose enough fit in the channel that I would rule out binding.

JSB said that he has seen guns in his shop that had wear in this location that would almost surely impede steady tension on the extractor. I think that might be one small piece of the puzzle of why extraction/ejection can go bad on these guns after X number of rounds.

:upeyes: Well, there IS an alternative explanation!

I am positive that the EDP rod is NOT striking (or, 'nesting') up against the exact same place on the back of the extractor every time. I think, but I cannot prove, that the extractor's, 'pivot pin' and the hole in the slide it rides in are also involved. Furthermore I believe the excessive vertical, 'slop' between the slide cutout, and the extractor's top and bottom, 'flats' has something to do with all of this.

jamaicanj
10-08-2012, 09:40
Thanks for sharing

dhgeyer
10-08-2012, 09:54
:upeyes: Well, there IS an alternative explanation!

I am positive that the EDP rod is NOT striking (or, 'nesting') up against the exact same place on the back of the extractor every time. I think, but I cannot prove, that the extractor's, 'pivot pin' and the hole in the slide it rides in are also involved. Furthermore I believe the excessive vertical, 'slop' between the slide cutout, and the extractor's top and bottom, 'flats' has something to do with all of this.

Good points AA. Quite possibly all of the above and more - lots of explanations out there and most of them plausible. Your experiences with Glock and your perspective is enlightening to say the least.

I have the G19 and a S&W M&P Full Size 9mm. Both guns same price range, both had "issues" as purchased. The Glock has the erratic ejection, the M&P had less than stellar accuracy out of the box. It's also a bit bulky for EDC. I have been able to absolutely cure the M&P by installing a KKM match barrel. Now it groups better than the Glock. I had to make a shorter front sight to get to shoot where it looks, but that effort is behind me.

I waffle every day which gun to take with me. The M&P is absolutely reliable (1100 rounds now), has consistent ejection, and is accurate and dead on with "bizzness" ammo. The Glock has never out and out jammed (700 rounds now), is certainly accurate enough, and is easier to conceal. The Glock also has a better trigger for fast shooting. The M&P trigger can be made wonderful by the throwing of more wampum at Apex. I have not done that.

I can't say that I'm really happy with either company. They both put out product that has issues in X number of cases and don't seem to be in any hurry to find a fix. The problems with the Smith are pretty well sorted out by Internet savvy users, and the cures are known, albeit a bit pricey. The Glock issues are not settled, and there's no known way to be sure of solving them.

But the G19 is such a sweet all around gun.

FRUSTRATING!

Raleigh Glocker
10-08-2012, 09:56
The rub marks on the EDP has been noticed and discussed in other threads. I don't know if there is a consensus on this (what causes it and what it does), but I have my opinion. It happened to mine also. I noticed it after JBS pointed it out in another thread. My gun had about 500 rounds on it at that point. I can't say when it would have become visible had I been watching for it. I attribute this wear to a sharp edge on the front of the extractor assembly channel in the slide and the hardness of the slide. In my gun the original EDP is a loose enough fit in the channel that I would rule out binding.

JBS said that he has seen guns in his shop that had wear in this location that would almost surely impede steady tension on the extractor. I think that might be one small piece of the puzzle of why extraction/ejection can go bad on these guns after X number of rounds.
This is why I zoomed in on it for the photos on Facebook.

My Gen 4 G23 with 2k trouble-free rounds through it has no visible wear whatsoever on the bearing. Is this significant? I don't know...

Arc Angel
10-08-2012, 10:10
Good points AA. Quite possibly all of the above and more - lots of explanations out there and most of them plausible. Your experiences with Glock and your perspective is enlightening to say the least.

I have the G19 and a S&W M&P Full Size 9mm. Both guns same price range, both had "issues" as purchased. The Glock has the erratic ejection, the M&P had less than stellar accuracy out of the box. It's also a bit bulky for EDC. I have been able to absolutely cure the M&P by installing a KKM match barrel. Now it groups better than the Glock. I had to make a shorter front sight to get to shoot where it looks, but that effort is behind me.

I waffle every day which gun to take with me. The M&P is absolutely reliable (1100 rounds now), has consistent ejection, and is accurate and dead on with "bizzness" ammo. The Glock has never out and out jammed (700 rounds now), is certainly accurate enough, and is easier to conceal. The Glock also has a better trigger for fast shooting. The M&P trigger can be made wonderful by the throwing of more wampum at Apex. I have not done that.

I can't say that I'm really happy with either company. They both put out product that has issues in X number of cases and don't seem to be in any hurry to find a fix. The problems with the Smith are pretty well sorted out by Internet savvy users, and the cures are known, albeit a bit pricey. The Glock issues are not settled, and there's no known way to be sure of solving them.

But the G19 is such a sweet all around gun.

FRUSTRATING!

I cannot help, but, to agree with everything you've stated. :thumbsup:

(And, as unsatisfied with - and actually a little afraid of - my G-19(RTF2) as I'd be a fool NOT to be, I also like my compact Glock better than any other EDC, 'cheap plastic pistol'. What a truly damned shame that we, all, have to go through this!) :freak:

http://imageshack.us/a/img195/7677/p6050031.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img826/9647/p6050014.jpg

As you can see, 'Old habits die hard!' I am, presently, heavily invested in this, 'cheap plastic pistol'. If I'm ultimately unable to get this problem solved, ...... I'm going to take a, 'real financial bath'! :supergrin:

dhgeyer
10-08-2012, 10:20
That's a sweet lookin' piece there AA!

FrankZ
10-08-2012, 10:55
I have been following this thread in a somewhat distracted way, but I have a question.

Is it conceivable that there is a bit of play that is introduced in the ejector because of heat? It would seem to me that if heat, either over time or during a range session, were to allow the ejector to move it may end up making contact incorrectly and thus, well, ejecting incorrectly.

M&P15T
10-08-2012, 12:23
A. You're breaking your wrists when you are getting BTF. Plain as day to see.

B. lose the operator gloves as they are over the top for the pistol range

C. make shorter vids that are to the point.


Ditch the gloves, stand up straight ( I've never understood the "Look at my butt, ain't it cute?" stance ) learn how to grip your Glock and the BTF problem will go away.


Oh fer chrissakes!!!

Just because you don't understand something, doesn't make it wrong......you're just out of touch with modern shooting techniques. Gloves are fine, butt-out is fine.

The OP is shooting just fine, something Fuds that probably don't own GEN4s can't figure out.

"Stand up straight sonny.....dad gum it!!"

dhgeyer
10-08-2012, 15:53
I have been following this thread in a somewhat distracted way, but I have a question.

Is it conceivable that there is a bit of play that is introduced in the ejector because of heat? It would seem to me that if heat, either over time or during a range session, were to allow the ejector to move it may end up making contact incorrectly and thus, well, ejecting incorrectly.

I suppose that's possible, but I wouldn't put it very high on my list of "suspects". I don't shoot my gun fast enough to get it more than warm. I had severe problems with my first Gen 4 G19 - bad enough that I finally traded it in where I bought it for an M&P. I did tell the buyer that it was a problem gun. My second Gen 4 G19 is much better, but still not perfect. Neither gun ever got very hot.

I bet that if you did a poll, you would find that those who shoot mag dumps don't have any higher percentage of problems than those who don't, if you normalize for factors like total rounds through the gun, cleaning schedule, type of ammo, and etc.

Made in Austria
10-08-2012, 16:28
A. You're breaking your wrists when you are getting BTF. Plain as day to see.

B. lose the operator gloves as they are over the top for the pistol range

C. make shorter vids that are to the point.

I really want to see how good you are. I would love to see a video of you shooting your gen4. I know you have one!

9mmdude
10-08-2012, 16:39
I really want to see how good you are. I would love to see a video of you shooting your gen4. I know you have one!

Ditto.

di11igaf
10-08-2012, 16:41
A. You're breaking your wrists when you are getting BTF. Plain as day to see.

B. lose the operator gloves as they are over the top for the pistol range

C. make shorter vids that are to the point.

+1!




Yeah, but you're doing it wrong that's why you're getting BTF.

Ditch the gloves, stand up straight ( I've never understood the "Look at my butt, ain't it cute?" stance ) learn how to grip your Glock and the BTF problem will go away.

Thanks for posting the video because it clears shows what you are doing wrong.

Pretty simple.
f@#$ing please, are you two really glock employees or are you just super fanboys?
ive asked you guys before, can you MAKE a glock eject to the left or foward? my gen 3 was a consistent 6:00 ejecting glock with the occasional left/foward left ejection. it was completely random with dozens of ammo types, cheap and quality. if it was ejecting erratically, it would usually stovepipe that day.
Again, how would you explain this gen 3 ejecting at 6:00 in a vice?
this is how it normally ejected-
glock 19 124gr NATO - YouTube
I can say i know you both are 100% wrong cause ive owned a complete POS 03/12 gen 3 19 and 08/12 gen 4 that so far has functioned flawless with much better ejection(as seen here)-
same shooter, same ammo, different gun. please tell me its my grip- if i need to do more than this, i dont want a glock.(how would you explain a video i have of me literally barely holding the gun, letting it recoil to the point it goes almost vertical, but ejection doesnt change- stays to the right)
BTW- please lets see a vid of either of you shooting. show us the proper way please. Also, show me a video of either of you getting a glock to eject at 6:00 or left on command. Any ammo, any grip. ill be waiting.
Gen 4 glock 19 - YouTube
Raleigh Glocker- excellent video that illustrates this problem. I was in the same boat at one point where i may not have believed it myself since my glock track record up until my late gen 3 was perfect.

Tiro Fijo
10-08-2012, 17:19
I really want to see how good you are. I would love to see a video of you shooting your gen4. I know you have one!


I currently own THREE. Never had BTF. Not once. I shoot Weaver style.

Why would I post a video? I have no need for attention and everyone would claim photoshop as there would be no BTF coupled with my dashing looks. :supergrin:

bunk22
10-08-2012, 17:55
I currently own THREE. Never had BTF. Not once. I shoot Weaver style.

Why would I post a video? I have no need for attention and everyone would claim photoshop as there would be no BTF coupled with my dashing looks. :supergrin:

So you're not going to show us your skill in anything other than being an internet mall ninja? Roger, well done :supergrin:

Made in Austria
10-08-2012, 20:45
I currently own THREE. Never had BTF. Not once. I shoot Weaver style.

Why would I post a video? I have no need for attention and everyone would claim photoshop as there would be no BTF coupled with my dashing looks. :supergrin:

Why not post a video!? Posting a video has nothing to do with looking for attention. We are just sharing our hobby and experience in form of a video. Maybe I can learn something watching you shoot weaver style. Come on, post one! Don't be a chicken Tiro!

Slackinoff
10-08-2012, 20:55
Why not post a video!? Posting a video has nothing to do with looking for attention. We are just sharing our hobby and experience in form of a video. Maybe I can learn something watching you shoot weaver style. Come on, post one! Don't be a chicken Tiro!

found him shooting a M&P 9c.....seems like there is a BTC "brass to camera" problem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzSK0nf8svA

Made in Austria
10-08-2012, 21:09
found him shooting a M&P 9c.....seems like there is a BTC "brass to camera" problem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzSK0nf8svA


Mamma mia, that gun ejects terrible, even worse than some Glock's do.

Fire_Medic
10-08-2012, 21:19
What about the shooters grip, lol......... :rofl:

DaBurna
10-08-2012, 22:15
*Tagged for Future Reference*
This has me mildly concerned about my Gen3 G17 coming in this week.... I've held off on the Gen4 Plunge b/c of threads like this one. We Glockers are hoping and praying Glock FIXES this issue instead of trying to bandage it. I own all Gen3 Glocks with no major problems.

It almost seems that Glocks have gone the way of the classic W.German/Exeter discussion about Sig Quality.... Lets hope this is NOT THE CASE!!

Raleigh Glocker
10-08-2012, 23:12
I'm still uploading a "Brass Not To Face" video showing my Gen 4 G23 from the same day. I honestly set out to make only ONE such video detailing the awesome ejection of both my Gen 4s, but that didn't work out. :)

I made a slow motion comparison of the ejection of both guns from that day at the range, and it reveals something I think is very interesting. Check it out.

ETA: You'll notice the spring loaded bearing is installed correctly in both guns. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOAtSPHmgwU

G23Gen4TX
10-09-2012, 00:07
I'm still uploading a "Brass Not To Face" video showing my Gen 4 G23 from the same day. I honestly set out to make only ONE such video detailing the awesome ejection of both my Gen 4s, but that didn't work out. :)

I made a slow motion comparison of the ejection of both guns from that day at the range, and it reveals something I think is very interesting. Check it out.

ETA: You'll notice the spring loaded bearing is installed correctly in both guns. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOAtSPHmgwU

We've known this for a while. It seems to be a "timing" issue with the ejection. Looks like the ejector puts too much spin on the case and the extractor is not letting go on time causing the case to over spin and hit the back of the slide.

How do you solve the problem? Who knows. It's probably an extractor design issue.

Tiro Fijo
10-09-2012, 00:24
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1446863

larson1122
10-09-2012, 00:39
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1446863

A range report from somebody with 100 rounds through one individual gun is supposed to prove what point exactly? Sure, in this case his wife's grip caused issues, but it would be ridiculous for you to assume that this is the case for everybody else who has experienced issues.

4949shooter
10-09-2012, 04:40
I was at a Glock Armorers class last week. Glock's response to the erratic ejection issue is:

(pick one or more)
It's not a wide spread problem that is hyped by the internet;
Check the ejector and RSA for the correct part;
If you have the correct ejector and RSA, send the pistol in for repair;
It could be caused by weak ammo;
It could be cause by limp wristing.

The instructor said it was not an extractor issue!

With all of these possibilities Glock has yet to explain why older Gen3 9mm Glocks run perfectly while newer Gen3 and Gen4 9mms are having issues.

I love my Gen4 9mms and hope the Apex extractor solves the erratic ejection issues.

Mike

Yep. And this goes back to my earlier stated theory, that Glock doesn't care that much because they are still selling guns.

4949shooter
10-09-2012, 04:51
And for what it's worth, I had my first BTF with my G20SF during my last range session which was right around the 1000 round mark for this pistol. More testing is in order, but I am hoping this is an anomaly.

I agree with Raleigh Glocker in that Glock should be (again) made aware this issue still exists with their guns. The videos I believe are helpful. Though I think Arc Angel may be right, in that it may take a large police or military contract to threaten to scrap their Glocks before the upper management at Glock takes a serious look at the issue.

mike from philly
10-09-2012, 05:07
The bounce explains the inconsistent ejection pattern since movement of the shooter differs between shots. Sometimes they are holding firm other times they are moving. Each of those movements affects when and where the case bounces.

I'd bet that if you put the pistol in a vice, it would eject perfectly because the pistol is static (that may GLOCK's method of testing by the way). Use the pistol in an dynamic way, and you'll end up with odd bounces.

Southwind
10-09-2012, 06:44
My take is that the extractor is not holding the case tightly enough so that the case tries to drop out, being held only by the next round. As best I can measure, the case can drop about 1/32 inch before the next round stops it. This means the ejector is hitting higher on the case than intended, destroying much of the uplift.

Secondly, because the extractor isn't holding tightly when the ejector hits, the extractor doesn't hold tightly enough to be a proper "hinge" to help the ejector kick the round to the right.

It would be very interesting (to me, at least) to see if your G23 will eject when there is no magazine present.

Fire_Medic
10-09-2012, 07:10
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1446863

Hilarious brother, 100 rounds........ :rofl:

And if that is you in the previous youtube video with the M&P 9C, you have absolutely NOTHING else to add here, because you can't even hold your pistol the right way...... :whistling:

MAP
10-09-2012, 08:10
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1446863

Many people I know don't start to experience erratic ejection issues until the pistol has at least 500 rounds through it.

In all appearances the more the pistol is shot the more the issue surfaces.

Mike

9mmdude
10-09-2012, 08:28
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1446863

That is your rebuttal? Hell do you think Obama won the debate too?

di11igaf
10-09-2012, 12:24
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1446863

You seem to like to troll... Is that you- 1 post just to start a thread about how it ejected fine for him yet his wife limp-wristed it to get BTF.
Hmm.

bunk22
10-09-2012, 18:26
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1446863

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y62/bunk22/fail_Demotivational_Posters_2010-s500x384-37293-580.jpg

ithaca_deerslayer
10-09-2012, 19:17
The bounce explains the inconsistent ejection pattern since movement of the shooter differs between shots. Sometimes they are holding firm other times they are moving. Each of those movements affects when and where the case bounces.

I'd bet that if you put the pistol in a vice, it would eject perfectly because the pistol is static (that may GLOCK's method of testing by the way). Use the pistol in an dynamic way, and you'll end up with odd bounces.

That is a very interesting analysis.

As with bump firing, I wonder if an astute shooter can get it to consistantly eject in a certain pattern.

Raleigh Glocker
10-10-2012, 13:23
No surprise, but Glock won't send me parts because I'm not a certified armorer. Though Arc Angel won't approve (:)), I will be sending this off for them to examine on their dime.

FWIW, the tech was polite but very neutral on the issue. He very quickly said he'd email me a return label without giving me any sense about how often he's had to deal with this.

Arc Angel
10-10-2012, 16:30
'Arc Angel' doesn't mind! I just don't regard the cost of shipping to be money well spent. (Especially when I already know that nothing significant - or genuinely remedial - is going to happen.)

Good luck! :thumbsup:

Raleigh Glocker
10-10-2012, 16:53
'Arc Angel' doesn't mind! I just don't regard the cost of shipping to be money well spent. (Especially when I already know that nothing significant - or genuinely remedial - is going to happen.)

Good luck! :thumbsup:

As I said, they're sending me a return label, and I didn't even have to ask. This is no cost to me except time away from my G17, which isn't much fun to shoot right now, anyway.
:)

Arc Angel
10-10-2012, 17:14
Really! You don't think somebody at the factory is reading GT; do you? :shocked:

I called the factory too, my friend. There was no prepaid label for me! Hell, the service rep wouldn't even send me two lousy parts in order to attempt a simple extractor removal and repair on my own. He wanted me to be a certified armorer before he'd give the parts to me. I told him that's fine; but I'd pass. (I didn't want to give up the I.Q. points in order to become certified.) ;)

Raleigh Glocker
10-10-2012, 18:10
He seemed pretty matter of fact about the whole thing. I told him about the wear on the spring loaded bearing and how my G23 had almost none after 2k rounds. I also told him what the slow motion video showed.

He asked for my SN and said, "This is a pretty new gun, so we'll send you a return label." Pretty short conversation, really, once it was clear there was no way he would send me parts.

ithaca_deerslayer
10-10-2012, 18:29
I called the factory too, my friend. There was no prepaid label for me! Hell, the service rep wouldn't even send me two lousy parts in order to attempt a simple extractor removal and repair on my own.
I think they have caller ID :)

OP, now you need to buy another G4 Glock, get the BTF problem, and tinker with it on your own :)

Arc Angel
10-10-2012, 18:32
Good one! :thumbsup:

di11igaf
10-10-2012, 18:49
The bounce explains the inconsistent ejection pattern since movement of the shooter differs between shots. Sometimes they are holding firm other times they are moving. Each of those movements affects when and where the case bounces.

I'd bet that if you put the pistol in a vice, it would eject perfectly because the pistol is static (that may GLOCK's method of testing by the way). Use the pistol in an dynamic way, and you'll end up with odd bounces.

Tried it. Used an indoor ranges vice, still ejected erratically and threw some literally at 6:00.
This was before I started to do a lot of testing when I first got the problem gun so we were all using the vice just messing around, my intent was not to test ejection, however, I still noticed the horrible ejection.
Mine seemed to be completely and utterly random.

Arc Angel
10-11-2012, 03:39
Yes, Glock's erratic extraction/ejection has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE SHOOTER. It's strictly a mechanical problem that's intrinsic to recently manufactured Glock 9 millimeter and, sometimes, 40 caliber pistols.

Beretta92guy
10-11-2012, 04:11
Yes, Glock's erratic extraction/ejection has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE SHOOTER. It's strictly a mechanical problem that's intrinsic to recently manufactured Glock 9 millimeter and, sometimes, 40 caliber pistols.

exactly....and i can attest to the .40 caliber having BTF issues...

Arc Angel
10-11-2012, 04:26
exactly....and i can attest to the .40 caliber having BTF issues...

:thumbsup: Good!

Because, of late, all we've been hearing is that this problem is now a 9mm - only - issue.

(And, of course, as long as the same cheap crappy extractors continue to be used in both 9mm and 40 caliber Glocks, this mechanical anomaly is going to be shared-in-common by both.)

Raleigh Glocker
10-11-2012, 04:33
Tried it. Used an indoor ranges vice, still ejected erratically and threw some literally at 6:00.
This was before I started to do a lot of testing when I first got the problem gun so we were all using the vice just messing around, my intent was not to test ejection, however, I still noticed the horrible ejection.
Mine seemed to be completely and utterly random.

This would've been valuable to have on video, for sure. Was it literally a shop vice? How did you clamp the pistol without inducing flex to the frame it wouldn't have when held with hands? Also, did you just reach around and pull the trigger with your finger?

I might try to recreate this test at some point.

Raleigh Glocker
10-11-2012, 04:37
(And, of course, as long as the same cheap crappy extractors continue to be used in both 9mm and 40 caliber Glocks, this mechanical anomaly is going to be shared-in-common by both.)

Do you mean this literally, as in the exact same extractor is used for both the 9mm and the 40S&W Glocks, or do you mean that they are the same type of general design and manufacturing process?

Arc Angel
10-11-2012, 05:56
Do you mean this literally, as in the exact same extractor is used for both the 9mm and the 40S&W Glocks, or do you mean that they are the same type of general design and manufacturing process?

:shocked: No, of course not!

(I've got an armorer's manual, too; and I'm fully aware that the part numbers are different. So is my best friend, the well-known local gunsmith, with whom I was just talking about this very subject. What is it? The current phase the moon is in; or what!) :freak:

Raleigh Glocker
10-11-2012, 06:10
:shocked: No, of course not!

(I've got an armorer's manual, too; and I'm fully aware that the part numbers are different. So is my best friend, the well-known local gunsmith, with whom I was just talking about this very subject. What is it? The current phase the moon is in; or what!) :freak:

Relax. It was a serious question. I've read that some have changed out their 9mm extractors for 40S&W extractors and had success fixing their BTF. I was just wondering if Glock decided to do that wholesale for some reason and I didn't get the memo.
:wavey:

Tangle
10-11-2012, 06:13
You know what might be interesting to try? Putting a gen 3 slide on a gen 4 frame. I realize the end of the frame of a gen 4 is larger than a gen 3 to accept the larger gen 4 guide rod, but this would just be to see if the gen 4 frame has anything to do with the problem.

I'm pretty sure you can use the gen 3 spring and guide rod in a gen 4 with a gen 3 slide.

IF it can be done, and the erratic ejection went away, it would clearly show the gen 4 frame is not contributing to the problem. Then, once that's established, one could swap all the gen 3 slide parts to the gen 4 slide and see what happens.

Another thought would be put the gen 4 parts in the gen 3 slide and see if the BTF occurs.

Just trying to think of some ways to identify the problem.

BTW, I have two G17 gen 4s, one with 2,675 and the other with 2475 rounds through them and I think I've had one or two BTF and those may have been bounces off the shooting booth wall.

Arc Angel
10-11-2012, 07:12
Relax. It was a serious question. I've read that some have changed out their 9mm extractors for 40S&W extractors and had success fixing their BTF. I was just wondering if Glock decided to do that wholesale for some reason and I didn't get the memo.
:wavey:

OK! I'm relaxed. :faint:

It's just that I'm presently being followed around the board by a real peckerwood who keeps on going out of his way in order to annoy me.

Which reminds me: I owe you an apology for your other thread that, 'Junior' shut down when he called me an, 'intellectual thief'. (Like I'm dumb enough to attempt something like that in front of the entire worldwide web. Imagine! What a testament to my outstanding Christian faith something like that would be!) :freak:

Your comment is correct. Some 9mm Glock owners have been able to overcome this problem by using less wobbly, tighter-clawed, 40 caliber extractors instead of the original loosely fitting, open-clawed, 9mm extractors their pistols initially came with.

I've already tried this; and while it worked marginally well, at the same time, too much of the expended 9mm brass was getting caught and held onto by the tighter 40 caliber claw.

Glock GmbH/Inc. is going to have to do one of two things in order to solve this problem: (1) Return to the precision-manufactured milled steel 9mm and 40 caliber extractors they used to use; or (2) get the mold dimensions of these new MIM extractors EXACTLY CORRECT (as they appear to have lucked out and accomplished with their new 45 ACP Glocks).

Of course, before any of this happens, the first thing Glock GmbH/Inc. is going to have to do is, ADMIT THEY HAVE A PROBLEM, AND AGREE TO SUPPLY THE PARTS NEEDED IN ORDER TO FIX THE MESS THEIR ILL-CONSIDERED COST CUTTING MEASURES HAVE CREATED INSIDE THEIR OWN MARKETPLACE.

Personally, I see no evidence of something like this happening anytime soon - Which is, 'Why' I think sending your troublesome pistol to Smyrna, right now, is a waste of time. But, I don't have a crystal ball; and, who knows, you just might luck out.

Tangle
10-11-2012, 07:23
The .40 extractor in a 9mm may just be a temporary fix. After 1000 - 2000 rounds have been fired, the problem may show up again.

...I've already tried this; and while it worked marginally well, at the same time, too much of the expended 9mm brass was getting caught and held onto by the tighter 40 caliber claw.
That seems reasonable it was designed for the .40, not the 9mm.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong here, but of the people having this problem, hasn't Glock fixed every one of them? Clearly, it took more than one try in some cases, but in the end, weren't all the problematic guns that were sent to Glock fixed?

That suggests that Glock does know how to fix the problem????

Arc Angel
10-11-2012, 07:48
Tangle, I've seen exactly the opposite result posted; but, yes, some people have had good luck after the factory installed one of the new Gen4 ejectors. Then again, others have posted that they haven't. From what I've seen and read, so far, none of this is consistent.

(Which, as far as I'm concerned, is typical of every Glock problem. One fellow posts that his Glock runs, 'like a Rolex'; and another guy replies that his Glock sucks. I've been reading contradictory comments like this on Glock Talk for years now.)

Tangle
10-11-2012, 08:46
...but, yes, some people have had good luck after the factory installed one of the new Gen4 ejectors. Then again, others have posted that they haven't.
This suggests that Glock simply cannot fix the problem - which I doubt. Had the problem gun been sent back to Glock again, it's likely Glock would have fixed the problem.

...(Which, as far as I'm concerned, is typical of every Glock problem. One fellow posts that his Glock runs, 'like a Rolex'; and another guy replies that his Glock sucks. I've been reading contradictory comments like this on Glock Talk for years now.)
That's interesting. I'm not a Glock fanboy, but nonetheless am impressed with the performance of the gen 3 Glocks. Until the gen 4 problems, Glock has been generally considered one of the most durable and reliable handguns manufactured.

I wonder is some of the 'Glocks suck', which are likely very few by comparison, come from blaming the gun for a shooter problem. Or perhaps they prefer another brand and....

di11igaf
10-11-2012, 14:45
This would've been valuable to have on video, for sure. Was it literally a shop vice? How did you clamp the pistol without inducing flex to the frame it wouldn't have when held with hands? Also, did you just reach around and pull the trigger with your finger?

I might try to recreate this test at some point.

It wasn't a 'shop' vice, but it was an actual handgun vice. I can't remember the brand or name, but it was pretty nice. It was by no means scientific, but it worked good. The vice we used would only work for glocks, the way sandwiched the frame made so it was gun specific, we were told not to even try anything else. It had a lever on the back that actuated the trigger, so you didn't have to reach in the trigger guard to fire. The range I used it at doesn't allow phones on premises, and if you've seen my videos there all shot with a cell phone.(I never even recorded us shooting until I wanted to start watching ejection when I had the problem glock) I've been thinking about just getting one for myself, I've seen them pretty cheap, and one could probably be made fairly easily for cheap.

Raleigh Glocker
10-11-2012, 18:07
It wasn't a 'shop' vice, but it was an actual handgun vice. I can't remember the brand or name, but it was pretty nice. It was by no means scientific, but it worked good. The vice we used would only work for glocks, the way sandwiched the frame made so it was gun specific, we were told not to even try anything else. It had a lever on the back that actuated the trigger, so you didn't have to reach in the trigger guard to fire. The range I used it at doesn't allow phones on premises, and if you've seen my videos there all shot with a cell phone.(I never even recorded us shooting until I wanted to start watching ejection when I had the problem glock) I've been thinking about just getting one for myself, I've seen them pretty cheap, and one could probably be made fairly easily for cheap.

OK. That sounds like a Ransom Rest, and they are very expensive to get the kind with the pistol-specific inserts. It is the right tool for the job, though.

kat1950
10-11-2012, 20:22
I wonder if these tooling machines for all these parts are finally worn to being out of spec, Gaston it might be time to bite the big bullet and spring financially and update all of your tooling machines.

normal.guy
10-12-2012, 02:04
nice video. i am just glad that my g17 was test fired in 09'. i also have a fall 12' gen4 g23 with about 2k through it. the g23 ejects just fine. it is weird that you dont get a gradual change in ejection. fine through one mag, and crap in the next and on.

also, there is nothing wrong with wearing gloves. i wear my issued oakley fr's at the range all of the time. its comfortable for me, so i wear them. your form looks fine. youre not 'breaking' your wrist. it is simply a problem with the production of your g17. tiro is a tool, and its best to ignore him.

Arc Angel
10-12-2012, 06:12
This suggests that Glock simply cannot fix the problem - which I doubt. Had the problem gun been sent back to Glock again, it's likely Glock would have fixed the problem.

That's interesting. I'm not a Glock fanboy, but nonetheless am impressed with the performance of the gen 3 Glocks. Until the gen 4 problems, Glock has been generally considered one of the most durable and reliable handguns manufactured.

I wonder is some of the 'Glocks suck', which are likely very few by comparison, come from blaming the gun for a shooter problem. Or perhaps they prefer another brand and....

Sometimes I think that I've been reading GT for too long! Not all Glocks are identical: Molds are different; and, to my knowledge, many - if not all - of the internal parts are supplied on contract to Glock, GmbH/Inc. by numerous and often varying outside manufacturers. Comments to the effect that Glock pistols exhibit a wide range of different mechanical tolerances have been frequently posted on this board by many different gunsmiths and aftermarket parts suppliers.

I, also, get tired of reading over and over again that Glock problems should, most correctly, be blamed on shooters who: (1) limp wrist, or (2) use the wrong ammunition. I used and fired pistols for a good 50 years BEFORE I began hearing about everybody's problems with plastic pistols and limp wristing.

(Yes! When compared to the John M. Browning designed pistols I grew up with, Glock's SIGNIFICANTLY MODIFIED, 'Browning lockup' is, indeed, extraordinarily loose AND extraordinarily susceptible to ....... limp wristing!) :supergrin:

Heck, I still remember the days when we all used to just walk into an Army-Navy store, buy whatever surplus pistol ammo was on the shelves, (at well under $5 per 50 count box) take it to the range, shoot it off, and go home. Terms like, 'limp wristing' and, 'the wrong ammo' weren't in anybody's firearms lexicon! We only knew one word, 'Bang!' and the most common expression was, 'Watch your front sight!'

(I guess those days are gone forever, though, huh!) :)

Neither do I believe that, 'Glock can't fix its problems'. Bricks are bricks; and mortar is mortar! In my viewpoint the real problem with Glock pistols that don't, or won't, work right is, for lack of better words, 'Teutonic frugality'. Glock pistols are very inexpensive to manufacture and cheap to sell. In my opinion, the gun buying American public would do well to view Glock pistols in this way.

(Even at an astonishing $650 + dollars a unit it's, probably, only too true: Sometimes, you really do get what you pay for. It's just that in my short lifetime I can still easily recall purchasing flawless Colt Mark IV's and, 'Gold Cups' for between $330.00 and $425.00! We never had no limp wristing nor ammunition problems with any of them.) :freak:

eracer
10-12-2012, 06:21
If what you say is true, its a pretty damaging argument against Glock. If, during a gunfight, I have to remember to "stand up straight, keep my butt tucked in, not wear gloves and keep a two handed, locked wrist grip on my Glock", its not really a gun I want to defend myself with.

The OP's technique looked fine to me, the gun should run without a problem, I've seen MUCH worse.
Indeed.

Criticism of the shooter's choice of gloves serves no purpose except to massage the critic's ego.

And minor faults in his stance/grip have nothing / nada / zero to do with the BTF issue. Again, pointless critique.

Raleigh Glocker
10-19-2012, 17:34
Glock watched the videos and didn't seem to think it was a form or ammo problem. :) They replaced every single part in the whole gun except the frame, the slide, the barrel, sights, and cover plate. I sent this to them on their dime, and I got it back in exactly one week. I'd say they took this pretty seriously and have so far impressed me with their efforts. Of course, that means nothing if the new parts don't correct the problem.

Interestingly enough, the new ejector and RSA are the same numbers, and the new extractor is still a "dip" extractor. I asked the warranty tech about reports that some were getting non-"dip" extractors as part of their warranty work, and he said that he hadn't heard about that but would look into it.

I won't be able to get to the range until Wednesday of next week, at the earliest. I will make a brief follow-up video, including another slow motion shot of the ejection.

4949shooter
10-19-2012, 20:58
Thanks for the update.

Good luck..

Bayou
12-31-2012, 15:16
edited to start a new thread