Survey: Iron sights [Archive] - Glock Talk

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TangoFoxtrot
10-07-2012, 05:13
Out of curiousity, how many folks use only Irons sights with no optics and why? Show your setup if possible.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/images/blue_style/misc/progress.gif

faawrenchbndr
10-07-2012, 05:33
Iron sights do not need batteries.
Iron sights rarely, if ever, break or fail.
Iron sights are always there, not in a pack.

Colt SP1 carbine

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c341/faawrenchbndr/2883613d.jpg

Wife's plinker, a BCM lower, Spikes 22lr upper, is normally shot
without the Aimpoint installed.

deputy tom
10-07-2012, 05:53
I prefer the old carry handle iron sight set up. I'm not an operator nor do I run 'em hard like so many others do. As mentioned above no batteries to fail at the worst time. Just think KISS carbine. YMMV. tom.:cool:

TattooedGlock
10-07-2012, 06:32
Iron sights serve a purpose, but I see more and more folks who aren't taking their AR to the desert, not using them. Never hurts to have backup though. I just put an ACOG on my POF so I can't really use them due to the magnification. I might put a set on an angle offset mount but haven't decided yet.

WayaX
10-07-2012, 08:50
Many of my rifles only have iron sights. Aimpoints are great, and every "home defense" rifle should have one. However, there is just something more fun about shooting irons.

VZ1600
10-07-2012, 10:02
I have the Daniel Defense A1.5 irons on my M&P15. Also a set of XS sights installed into them. I really like the setup. Solid, accurate and American made.


OutdoorHub Mobile, the information engine of the outdoors.

skeeter7
10-07-2012, 10:18
:wavey: I also have the carry handle/iron sight setup on my 6720 and run no optics. Why? Just because I like it that way.

Ruggles
10-07-2012, 10:57
I only have 4 ARs:

2 with iron sights

http://i48.tinypic.com/rmpt2c.jpg

and

Troy Di-Optics rear sights which IMO are a great invention, makes the front sight post much quicker and more sharp to me.

http://i46.tinypic.com/54zw20.jpg

http://i47.tinypic.com/2zrgayt.jpg


1 with Eotech 517 (w/BUIS)

http://i47.tinypic.com/2efm3bc.jpg

1 with Accupoint 3x9

http://i47.tinypic.com/nuqet.jpg

I agree iron sights have a strong appeal to them. They just seem "right" on the AR. :) But optics certainly have their place as well IMO.

jeepinbandit
10-07-2012, 11:11
I've got backup Irons on mine but you can't beat a decent optic for speed and ease of use. And there are optics that come pretty damn close to Irons such at ACOGs that require no batteries, no buttons to turn on, and have proven to actually stop bullets lol.

Cole125
10-07-2012, 11:39
Shooting with irons is a lot of fun no question, and every AR owner should know how to hit the broad side of a barn using them.

I have back up iron sights on all my rifles, but all of them have a Aimpoint or magnified optic. You cannot beat the speed and pin point accuracy of red dots, and with Aimpoints failure is very very rare. Can't say that about most other brands of RDS, though.

Ruggles
10-07-2012, 11:44
Shooting with irons is a lot of fun no question, and every AR owner should know how to hit the broad side of a barn using them.

I have back up iron sights on all my rifles, but all of them have a Aimpoint or magnified optic. You cannot beat the speed and pin point accuracy of red dots, and with Aimpoints failure is very very rare. Can't say that about most other brands of RDS, though.

You jusy had to go there about Eotech huh? :tongueout:

I am just waiting for mine to explode when I turn it on :supergrin:

I (and I think a number of other folks) just prefer the larger reticle of the Eotech. These types of optics are designed to increase speed on target, my old eyes need the bigger one on the Eotech to maximize that speed.

blk69stang
10-07-2012, 12:06
I am more accurate with irons than with an EOtech. Plus, I dislike the EOtech anyway.

My duty rifle is equipped with an ACOG, which is about the nicest piece of glass I've ever had the pleasure of using, but even it has back up iron sights.

Only one of my personally owned weapons has anything but irons on it.

Tim151515
10-07-2012, 12:24
me. i just prefer them.

http://i1210.photobucket.com/albums/cc417/tim151515/Collection.jpg

G19freak
10-07-2012, 12:35
Stock 6920 running just the way it came---even have an Aimpoint Micro sitting in the safe.

Just like it plain and simple---the next AR will probably get the optic---looking at getting another 6920 sooner or later.

surf
10-07-2012, 13:22
Depends on what I am doing. I do teach irons only courses and have done so for several years as a planned progression of training. IMO this produces higher quality shooters when teaching or reinforcing fundamentals via irons. This goes for newer shooters or even when taking experienced shooters and breaking them down to the basics and rebuilding them. So yes I have irons only set ups.

I will note that during intensive irons only courses, shooters are exposed to a multitude of alternate or improvised shooting positions and scenario's including low / no light etc, that it quickly becomes clearly obvious where irons can be a serious limiting factor in a shooters performance especially in critical use training, scenarios, etc, to include force on force. IMO anyone who uses this platform for potential critical use applications are greatly benefited by having training with and deploying a modern capable red dot / optic.

K. Foster
10-07-2012, 14:16
If you want to go irons only for a retro build or because you don’t want to spend the money on a quality optic, or if you just want irons, there’s nothing wrong with that. I’ve found that it is easier for people to learn irons first.
But the right optic is a superior sighting system. RDS’s are better in low light. At distance, magnification is always a plus.

crambone
10-07-2012, 14:19
Iron/peep sights on my Mauser/M1 Garand only.

crazymoose
10-07-2012, 15:10
I have irons on everything. I also have optics on "go to" rifles. There are a lot of guys who can shoot irons just as fast as optics, as long as it's from favorable shooting stances. Once you talk about shooting on the move, lying on your back or side, etc., that's where red dot optics shine, because you don't need a good cheek weld. Serious situations don't always give you the luxury of shooting from the classic positions. There's a reason that virtually everyone who goes into harm's way for a living uses optics (if available/affordable).

Yes, optics and batteries can and do fail. That's why I have irons and believe that one should be proficient with them. That said, a lot of guys go too far with this philosophy. In prepping for an "end of the world" scenario, you're talking about optics with a five-year battery life. If you're running and gunning a lot in post apocalyptic, nuclear winter, Mad Max land, chances are that battery's life span will exceed yours. If, after five years of post apocalyptic combat, your battery dies, either 1) take a spare out of storage space on your rifle (lots of stocks, VFG's, grips now have storage), or 2) find an extra one. AA batteries are plentiful, and even the CR123's would be around somewhere.

Cole125
10-07-2012, 15:34
You jusy had to go there about Eotech huh? :tongueout:

I am just waiting for mine to explode when I turn it on :supergrin:

I (and I think a number of other folks) just prefer the larger reticle of the Eotech. These types of optics are designed to increase speed on target, my old eyes need the bigger one on the Eotech to maximize that speed.

EOTechs are good optics, and I too prefer the EOTech reticle over the Aimpoint dot for longer range shooting. The fact is, Aimpoints are more reliable, durable, and have a longer battery life. The new CR123 powered EOTechs are a huge improvement, though.

MrMurphy
10-07-2012, 15:51
Ran irons exclusively till 2003 or so.

Used Aimpoints since, though I went with a stock M16A2 in a few instances here and there.

I'll take an Aimpoint first, but irons-only doesn't bother me too much if i'm not working in the dark.

Ruggles
10-07-2012, 15:59
EOTechs are good optics, and I too prefer the EOTech reticle over the Aimpoint dot for longer range shooting. The fact is, Aimpoints are more reliable, durable, and have a longer battery life. The new CR123 powered EOTechs are a huge improvement, though.

Fair enough :)

boomhower
10-07-2012, 16:04
My duty rifle wears fixed irons, FSP w/ tritium insert and DD 1.5 in the rear. It also wear and Aimpoint Pro. I am very proficient with the irons, groups are a but tighter with the Aimpoint though. We are required to qualify with both irons and optics so no crutches allowed.

denn1911
10-07-2012, 16:09
The majority of my rifles do have AimPoint red dot sights. Of the two that have irons only, I shoot them well. I like to shoot with iron sights to keep my skills sharp and for the fun of it. There is no question that I would always go with an optic over irons only. I run my rifles hard and train from awkward positions, etc. The RDS helps with speed and precision while making those tough shots.

fnfalman
10-07-2012, 18:50
Out of curiousity, how many folks use only Irons sights with no optics and why? Show your setup if possible.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/images/blue_style/misc/progress.gif

Why? Because it works.

Fordtough25
10-07-2012, 18:50
Iron's all the way, I shoot well with them and enjoy using them! Nothing wrong with optics but I shoot several military surplus rifles and ak's as well, all iron's there too. I wouldn't mind slapping an Acog on one of the AR's if they weren't so dang expensive! :wow:

ak103k
10-07-2012, 19:46
These days, I primary only use irons on my target rifles, and older military guns that are more toys/range guns than anything else. M1's, M1A, 03', Mausers, Colt SP1, etc are all optics free and with their issue sights. Same goes for my Winchester lever guns, and a few other commercial bolt guns.

The advantage to the dot sights is instantly obvious when you use them, but everyone really should learn how to shoot using the iron sights.

As far as batteries going dead, or the optic failing, if you dont buy junk, its a lot less of an issue, and of course, the cowitnessed BUIS are right there if you should need them. Im still running Aimpoint M2's on most of my guns that have one, and have had them since they were the "current" sight of the type. They only have a 10000 hour battery life, and I dont even turn them off, just change the batteries once a year. Yhe newer models run much longer.

JW1178
10-07-2012, 23:46
I'm broke, that's why I just have irons. Trained with irons. I think that everyone should be able to shoot with irons.

I do teach irons only courses and have done so for several years as a planned progression of training. IMO this produces higher quality shooters when teaching or reinforcing fundamentals via irons. This goes for newer shooters or even when taking experienced shooters and breaking them down to the basics and rebuilding them. So yes I have irons only set ups.

I will note that during intensive irons only courses, shooters are exposed to a multitude of alternate or improvised shooting positions and scenario's including low / no light etc, that it quickly becomes clearly obvious where irons can be a serious limiting factor in a shooters performance especially in critical use training, scenarios, etc, to include force on force. IMO anyone who uses this platform for potential critical use applications are greatly benefited by having training with and deploying a modern capable red dot / optic.

I agree. If you can hit something at 500 yards with your irons, well, you have taken the pebble from the master's hand. A man size target looks like a dot at 500 yards. Now, you take someone who can do that, then give them optics, they can do amazing things. The optic as well as the quality of the optic will only increase their capabilities. Other way around where someone can only shoot well with an optic, the quality and capability of their optic will be the deciding factor on their performance. Take away the optic, they are lost.

TangoFoxtrot
10-08-2012, 05:17
Iron's all the way, I shoot well with them and enjoy using them! Nothing wrong with optics but I shoot several military surplus rifles and ak's as well, all iron's there too. I wouldn't mind slapping an Acog on one of the AR's if they weren't so dang expensive! :wow:


you got that right i have been wanting a 1-4 x optic for a while now...but too damn expensive.

TedG
10-08-2012, 06:49
I'm not quite ready for Armageddon yet, but when it comes, I'll use my Aimpoint. In the mean time, iron sights are more challenging and fun. I prefer a DD1.5 over a folding type because there are less moving parts. The carry handle is fine also.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i90/TedG954/PSA-ColtLWTCarbine.jpg

jbglock
10-08-2012, 08:53
you got that right i have been wanting a 1-4 x optic for a while now...but too damn expensive.

What about a Nikon 1-4 x 20 M-223?

Hamrhed
10-08-2012, 09:56
AK here, and while I have rds capability- I train with irons a bunch. A rds is an enhancement- not a skill-builder

SCSU74
10-08-2012, 10:05
Iron sights serve a purpose, but I see more and more folks who aren't taking their AR to the desert, not using them. Never hurts to have backup though. I just put an ACOG on my POF so I can't really use them due to the magnification. I might put a set on an angle offset mount but haven't decided yet.

The xs xti off set sights are great from the times i have used them with a magnified optic


Sent from my iPhone... which probably auto-corrected something wrong

scccdoc
10-08-2012, 10:22
What distances are you guys talking about for iron vs. optics? DOC

shooter 14
10-08-2012, 10:23
I have a scope on my 10/22 with iron sights under it I really like the set up for me a scope is a big bonus. I will admit that I need to train with irons more I wear glass's and find them difficult to use and hit accurately with past 40 yards or so I guess I'm just used to scopes but if I could I'd go with both. as it is I've got to lever guns a 500 20 and a 10/22 so I only have a scope on one and don't plan on putting scopes on the other ones.

shooter 14
10-08-2012, 10:24
If I had a ar I would have maybe 4x scope not sure which with back up iron sights.

M&P15T
10-08-2012, 12:34
WHile I have Troy BUISs, and I have them sighted in at 50 yards, I hardly ever use them.

My Eotech is much more precise, and you can't beat the sight picture.

smokin762
10-08-2012, 15:44
I like options. :supergrin:

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1676&pictureid=6058

jeepinbandit
10-08-2012, 15:59
Sweet rifle Smokin.

smokin762
10-08-2012, 16:05
Sweet rifle Smokin.

Thank you. :wavey:

NeverMore1701
10-08-2012, 16:31
Both my ARs have optics (EOTech EXPS on the 16" and 4-16x60 Nikon on the 20"), but they also both have BUIS. No reason not to.

ruffhunter
10-08-2012, 18:18
For duty, I got a Troy fixed rear. It up and ready when I pull it out of the case and its very accurate. Plan on getting an XS front soon.

FireForged
10-08-2012, 18:27
I own 2 bushmaster a1's circa 1999 that have been flawless. I only use iron because they will never see any use beyond 100 yards, SelfDefense or otherwise. The only additive as been a magpul afg.

* I use the afg as a grip... I do not use it as a platform to grip the handguard like a fire hose like its intended. I like to form up behind the rifle and get small.. I dont and wont do all this boxer stance/ firehose thing.. I am just too old skool for the new kool.

mjkeat
10-08-2012, 19:23
Or just to set in your ways to improve?

TangoFoxtrot
10-09-2012, 04:27
Options are a good thing but iron sights never lose battery power or shatter.

MrMurphy
10-09-2012, 08:02
Seen two Matechs break, and an A2 rear fall out.

It 'can' happen....... highly unlikely, but never say never.

SCSU74
10-09-2012, 11:49
For duty, I got a Troy fixed rear. It up and ready when I pull it out of the case and its very accurate. Plan on getting an XS front soon.

Make sure to let them know you're Leo. I think it drops the price to like $25


Sent from my iPhone... which probably auto-corrected something wrong

CDR_Glock
10-09-2012, 20:21
I believe they're very important. However, I prefer red dots for the speed. My irons are zeroed for 50 yards.

Rally Vincent
10-09-2012, 20:25
Fixed or flip, Troy is the way to go. Period.

jbglock
10-09-2012, 20:44
Fixed or flip, Troy is the way to go. Period.

Over Magpul? You (or someone else) has tried both and feels the same?

Cochese
10-09-2012, 21:29
Colt 6721 with a carry handle.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-CEgqSGS8RWk/T7WNahdZ7QI/AAAAAAAAEgc/unqJIXset7E/s576/IMAG0355.jpg

mjkeat
10-09-2012, 21:38
Over Magpul? You (or someone else) has tried both and feels the same?

I have multiple sets of each and seriously I don't have a preference b/w the two.

AK_Stick
10-09-2012, 23:24
I have a 20 inch A2, and a M-4 that will only ever run irons. Use them for teaching/preping soldiers for quals.


Aside from that, I'd never outfit a rifle for serious purpose that was solely equipped with irons.

ak103k
10-10-2012, 02:42
Fixed or flip, Troy is the way to go. Period.
I have a set of Troy BUIS on my M&P15T that came with the gun. I also have a set of GG&G BUIS on one of my Armlites. The difference between the two is pretty obvious when you look close at them side by side, and shooting proves it out (both guns shoot pretty much the same with optics on them).

The Troy's dont lock up solid and have a lot of play in them. They work OK for what they are, but if thats all youre planning on using, Id look for something else.

Louisville Glocker
10-10-2012, 04:26
Well, in my opinion, there is a reason they call them back up iron sights (BUIS), because they are back ups.

I've got an aimpoint on my PSA, and an eotech on my colt. What is best? Well, it is all about have options.

akgunnut
10-10-2012, 11:23
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/spyderdude18/IMGP0456.jpg

I had an Aimpoint PRO but traded it for ammo and mags. Maybe someday I'll buy another optic but for now I like it lightweight and simple.

vrex
10-10-2012, 11:34
If real life was always well lighted, with bright painted targets and my eyes were what they were at 20, irons would rule for me.

Ruggles
10-10-2012, 12:05
What about a Nikon 1-4 x 20 M-223?

I have one, dang nice scope IMO. Well worth the money.

CDR_Glock
10-10-2012, 12:14
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/spyderdude18/IMGP0456.jpg

I had an Aimpoint PRO but traded it for ammo and mags. Maybe someday I'll buy another optic but for now I like it lightweight and simple.

I have an Aimpoint t1. Awesome setup on my Noveske.

TangoFoxtrot
10-11-2012, 04:52
If real life was always well lighted, with bright painted targets and my eyes were what they were at 20, irons would rule for me.

LOL yeah that is the problem with iron sights when the eyes get old.

MrMurphy
10-11-2012, 17:28
Even with younger eyes, it's a challenge.

The joys of clearing rooms in semidarkness with an A2 compared to an M68 equipped M4 will give you a quick heads up on that......

DowntimeLA
10-12-2012, 08:20
I have a MP15 sport and really have fun shooting with the factory iron sights. Plus it's been a great gun to teach my GF shooting fundamentals with. It's too easy just to hover a red orb over a target and shoot. (at close range anyway)

I admit that pretty much all we do is plink. :cool:

jbglock
10-12-2012, 13:14
If real life was always well lighted, with bright painted targets and my eyes were what they were at 20, irons would rule for me.

Agree. When I was younger I could shoot the so good with the sights on my Colt I thought it was silly seeing people spend so much to replace a perfectly good sight set up. Now that I'm older and focus in different planes is slower for me I look at it a lot different.

M&P15T
10-13-2012, 04:21
I have a set of Troy BUIS on my M&P15T that came with the gun.......The Troy's dont lock up solid and have a lot of play in them. They work OK for what they are, but if thats all youre planning on using, Id look for something else.

There are two versions of the M&P15T, which one do you have? Can you post pictures of the sights on yours?

I have an original 15T, and the Troy sights are absolutely rock solid, not a bit of play in them.

eracer
10-13-2012, 04:27
I bought an AR with the intention of using a carry handle and a pinned A2 front sight.

I did this for the reasons FAAWRENCHBNDR stated above. Namely:

Iron sights do not need batteries.
Iron sights rarely, if ever, break or fail.
Iron sights are always there, not in a pack.

Then I decided to put my ACOG on it instead. Why?

Because:

ACOG's do not need batteries.
ACOG's rarely, if ever, break or fail.
ACOG's are always there, not in a pack. (assuming you keep them on the rifle.)

And ACOG's are far more versatile than iron sights. (Especially at distance with these tired, old, astigmatic eyes.)

faawrenchbndr
10-13-2012, 04:55
I'm not an optic hater,.....AGOG is outstanding.
Love my Comp M2 a bit better

eracer
10-13-2012, 05:35
I'm not an optic hater,.....AGOG is outstanding.
Love my Comp M2 a bit betterAgreed. I have one of those as well. However, if 'No Batteries' is part of the equation...:cool:

(Then again, the batteries in the Aimpoint might just outlast the tritium in the ACOG.)

ak103k
10-13-2012, 14:45
There are two versions of the M&P15T, which one do you have?
I didnt realise they had more than one version, so Im not sure which version I have. I got it a couple of years back.

The play in my sights is most noticeable front to back, but there is also some side wiggle as well. As I said earlier, they shoot "OK", its just they dont seem to be as repeatable as the GG&G's, which have zero play.


This is my M&P15T....
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a1dc01b3127ccefc3d8c6b21c000000030O00CYuWbdo5bsQe3nwk/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

and the sights....
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2ce32b3127ccef10eb71e36ec00000030O00CYuWbdo5bsQe3nwk/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2ce32b3127ccef10f9e9656a400000030O00CYuWbdo5bsQe3nwk/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2ce32b3127ccef10f13c4162800000030O00CYuWbdo5bsQe3nwk/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2ce32b3127ccef10fa87ad76300000030O00CYuWbdo5bsQe3nwk/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

fnfalman
10-13-2012, 15:06
ACOG is a short telescopic sight and not a typical red dot sight.

I am a proponent of short scopes for combat exactly for the reasons you've listed. Set it on 1X or 1.5X for contact distances and crank it up to 4X for longer ranges.

I bought an AR with the intention of using a carry handle and a pinned A2 front sight.

I did this for the reasons FAAWRENCHBNDR stated above. Namely:

Iron sights do not need batteries.
Iron sights rarely, if ever, break or fail.
Iron sights are always there, not in a pack.

Then I decided to put my ACOG on it instead. Why?

Because:

ACOG's do not need batteries.
ACOG's rarely, if ever, break or fail.
ACOG's are always there, not in a pack. (assuming you keep them on the rifle.)

And ACOG's are far more versatile than iron sights. (Especially at distance with these tired, old, astigmatic eyes.)

ak103k
10-13-2012, 15:18
I am a proponent of short scopes for combat exactly for the reasons you've listed. Set it on 1X or 1.5X for contact distances and crank it up to 4X for longer ranges.

I have one AR set up just as you describe, and for the same reasons. It does work well, but to be "perfect", something like Trijicons Accupoints would be the ticket. Scopes lacking night or low/no light capability are at a disadvantage to the red dots.

Having both, the red dots are still my favorites for all around use. I am thinking about that Trijcon though. :)

fnfalman
10-13-2012, 15:43
I have one AR set up just as you describe, and for the same reasons. It does work well, but to be "perfect", something like Trijicons Accupoints would be the ticket. Scopes lacking night or low/no light capability are at a disadvantage to the red dots.

Some short scopes of glowing reticules. Even without the glowing reticules, they still magnify ambient light. Not to mention you can use infrared laser pointers coupled to a night vision goggle.

Having both, the red dots are still my favorites for all around use. I am thinking about that Trijcon though. :)

To each his own. I have both red dot and short scope. I prefer short scope.

ak103k
10-13-2012, 16:28
Some short scopes of glowing reticules. Even without the glowing reticules, they still magnify ambient light. Not to mention you can use infrared laser pointers coupled to a night vision goggle.
The glowing reticule would be better, but Id personally rather have the dot or triangle. I find it less busy, and distracting, especially in lower light.

The lower power scopes Ive used, dont have the light gathering objectives the bigger scopes have. I really dont see much if any difference between them and my red dots.

Laser and night vision are nice, but expensive, and I still get a 24 hour sight with even a cheap red dot. My M2's are NV ready too.

Hey, it all comes down to what works best for you. You really cant go wrong with either. With todays zero repeatable mounts, you can actually have the best of both worlds with one gun, and its nice to have the options. My AR with the 1.5x5 on it, also has a pre zeroed M2 on its own lever mount. It can be either or, in about 15-20 seconds.

arclight610
10-13-2012, 16:28
My A2 clone. I might one day get one of those fancy Aimcogs.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a193/Teamcompound/DSCF5007.jpg

M&P15T
10-14-2012, 03:25
I didnt realise they had more than one version, so Im not sure which version I have. I got it a couple of years back.

The play in my sights is most noticeable front to back, but there is also some side wiggle as well. As I said earlier, they shoot "OK", its just they dont seem to be as repeatable as the GG&G's, which have zero play.


This is my M&P15T....
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a1dc01b3127ccefc3d8c6b21c000000030O00CYuWbdo5bsQe3nwk/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

and the sights....
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2ce32b3127ccef10eb71e36ec00000030O00CYuWbdo5bsQe3nwk/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2ce32b3127ccef10f9e9656a400000030O00CYuWbdo5bsQe3nwk/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2ce32b3127ccef10f13c4162800000030O00CYuWbdo5bsQe3nwk/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2ce32b3127ccef10fa87ad76300000030O00CYuWbdo5bsQe3nwk/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Very odd...

You have the same, original 15T as I do, but I have a slightly different front sight. Still, those do look like Troys, so it's odd that you're having issues with them. Maybe paint got into the mechanisms and froze the springs that apply tension?

Mine are rock solid, and snick-snick into place and back to folded down.

You might try removing them, soaking them in paint remover, then cleaning and oiling them up real good. Might help.

faawrenchbndr
10-14-2012, 04:24
Agreed. I have one of those as well. However, if 'No Batteries' is part of the equation...:cool:

(Then again, the batteries in the Aimpoint might just outlast the tritium in the ACOG.)

I hear ya,........not a big fan of the ACOG price tag.
Other than a scope, the Aimpoint is the only optic I care for.

TangoFoxtrot
10-14-2012, 05:19
ak130k that is a nice setup!

ak103k
10-14-2012, 06:59
Maybe paint got into the mechanisms and froze the springs that apply tension?
No. They were as they are now, prior to painting.

Maybe I just lucked out and got a sloppy set. Thats usually my "luck". :)

They work fine for what they are, a "BU"IS.

ak103k
10-14-2012, 07:02
ak130k that is a nice setup!
Thanks. :)

I got it in a trade (NIB) and its been working out well. I wouldnt hesitate to get another S&W.

Here it is with its voice reducer. :)

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2d834b3127ccef00a1d04994100000030O00CYuWbdo5bsQe3nwk/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Snaps
10-14-2012, 23:14
I used irons only in bootcamp and SOI, then I learned how much faster non magnified optics are so I switched.

I tried the ACOG too, but it wasn't as fast. Deployed with 'em and won't ever go back.

Odds of my aimpoint or eotech breaking when I need it are very slim, and much less all my aimpoints or eotechs breaking

NEOH212
10-15-2012, 03:09
My primary rifle is a Colt LE6920 with the standard carry handle irons. I have noting against optics and I understand all the arguments in favor of red dot's and optics as a whole.

I've been down the red dot road and I don't care for them. I find I can be just as fast with iron sights as I can with the red dot.

What about low light you ask? That's what a weapon mounted light is for. At the most, they make tritium sights for the AR if one feels the need for them. (I don't as long as I have a light attached to the gun.)

For me anymore, magnified optics are for my precision rifles and red dot's are a novelty in my opinion. I know a lot of you guys like the red dot's and if they work for you great! I don't like them.

With no magnification they don't offer me anything that the iron sights don't already do for me. They take up space and rely on batteries. I've heard all the arguments about how, "Fast" the red dot is. I just don't see it and I haven't noticed any difference in my shot to shot times or time on target to first shot fired between red dot's and irons.

Sorry!

Red Dot sights?

No thank you.

I'm able to reliably use my iron sights (on a regular basis at that) out to 400 meters and reliably hit a man size target and keep almost all of them on the paper.

I don't see how that's a bad thing and I don't see a red dot allowing me to do it any better than that.

A magnified optic will allow me to group tighter at that distance and have a higher hit rate but it takes up space, increases weight not to mention the greater possibility of something going wrong with my primary sight. Let's face it, no optic is as rugged as iron sights.

My iron sights get me from point blank to 600 meters. (Don't ask me about my hit rate at 600m :crying:) But on that note, how often will a civilian or even a law enforcement officer be called upon to engage a target at 600 meters with either a red dot or iron sights.

Probably never.

As far as I'm concerned, a defensive rifle should be kept as simple as possible. For me, it's iron sights and a weapon mounted light. That combo hasn't failed me yet and I've used this carbine in several classes with great success. (Much to the dismay of the instructors that insisted that I have a red dot or some kind of optic.) :supergrin:

Iron sights for me please!

:wavey:

mjkeat
10-15-2012, 07:45
You don't know what you don't know, comes to mind.

scccdoc
10-15-2012, 08:43
Being a newbie to black rifles, I'm learning iron sights first. I may go to an Aimpoint or similar set-up later. First things first for me..................DOC

Ruggles
10-15-2012, 09:48
My primary rifle is a Colt LE6920 with the standard carry handle irons. I have noting against optics and I understand all the arguments in favor of red dot's and optics as a whole.

I've been down the red dot road and I don't care for them. I find I can be just as fast with iron sights as I can with the red dot.

What about low light you ask? That's what a weapon mounted light is for. At the most, they make tritium sights for the AR if one feels the need for them. (I don't as long as I have a light attached to the gun.)

For me anymore, magnified optics are for my precision rifles and red dot's are a novelty in my opinion. I know a lot of you guys like the red dot's and if they work for you great! I don't like them.

With no magnification they don't offer me anything that the iron sights don't already do for me. They take up space and rely on batteries. I've heard all the arguments about how, "Fast" the red dot is. I just don't see it and I haven't noticed any difference in my shot to shot times or time on target to first shot fired between red dot's and irons.

Sorry!

Red Dot sights?

No thank you.

I'm able to reliably use my iron sights (on a regular basis at that) out to 400 meters and reliably hit a man size target and keep almost all of them on the paper.

I don't see how that's a bad thing and I don't see a red dot allowing me to do it any better than that.

A magnified optic will allow me to group tighter at that distance and have a higher hit rate but it takes up space, increases weight not to mention the greater possibility of something going wrong with my primary sight. Let's face it, no optic is as rugged as iron sights.

My iron sights get me from point blank to 600 meters. (Don't ask me about my hit rate at 600m :crying:) But on that note, how often will a civilian or even a law enforcement officer be called upon to engage a target at 600 meters with either a red dot or iron sights.

Probably never.

As far as I'm concerned, a defensive rifle should be kept as simple as possible. For me, it's iron sights and a weapon mounted light. That combo hasn't failed me yet and I've used this carbine in several classes with great success. (Much to the dismay of the instructors that insisted that I have a red dot or some kind of optic.) :supergrin:

Iron sights for me please!

:wavey:


I would agree with all of this when I was younger but as I get older my eyes just don't react as quick to iron sights as red dot sights. That being said 1/2 my ARs still have iron sights because I like them better than red dot sights. I am starting to really like the 1x4 scope as a option as well.

That is one of the problems with ARs, too many choices before and after you buy one of the damn things! :supergrin:

ak103k
10-15-2012, 18:44
I've been down the red dot road and I don't care for them. I find I can be just as fast with iron sights as I can with the red dot.
Hey, if you dont like them, you dont like them, thats cool. At least we have a choice.

As far as speed, with certain type sights, and certain situations, I can maybe see it, but not in most cases, at least not for me.

What about low light you ask? That's what a weapon mounted light is for. At the most, they make tritium sights for the AR if one feels the need for them. (I don't as long as I have a light attached to the gun.)
Lights are great, and I have them on a couple of guns, but they suffer the same issue as the dots, batteries, and they are usually much shorter lived in that respect. They also can be even more fragile than the dots when it comes to getting knocked around, and in some cases, even just shot.

My dots are older Aimpoints, and stay on 24/7/365, and I change the batteries once a year. My lights get changed twice a year, needed or not, and only have a run time of about an hour or so.

Tritium on the other hand, works no matter what, as long as you keep them current. I have both red dots and tritium on guns I would consider for serious use, and all cowitness, so theres no need to remove the dot, should it happen to go down for some reason.

For me anymore, magnified optics are for my precision rifles
Yup, me too, for the most part. The lower power scopes do work up close, but are still behind the curve compared to dots and some irons when it comes to speed.

With no magnification they don't offer me anything that the iron sights don't already do for me. They take up space and rely on batteries. I've heard all the arguments about how, "Fast" the red dot is. I just don't see it and I haven't noticed any difference in my shot to shot times or time on target to first shot fired between red dot's and irons.
I noticed the difference right away, and still do. I still shoot a lot of iron sighted guns, most of which these days, isnt High Power type "target" shooting, but more reactive type shooting. I can snap shoot targets much quicker and accurately with the dots, even at, and past 100 yards.

The biggest difference I find between the dots and irons is, there is no "alignment" needed for the dots, you look at the target, shoulder the rifle, or whatever, and the dot appears where you are looking as the gun comes up. Squeeze the trigger, and the bullet goes to the dot, or very close to it, depending on zero. As you get older, not having to deal with alignment, you appreciate this even more.

Let's face it, no optic is as rugged as iron sights.
Well, maybe. So far, I have yet to break any of my Aimpoints (or even knock them out of zero), but I have broken a few iron sights over the years, and some clean off the gun. They can break from impacts, just like the optics. Some are better than others, but they are not totally fool proof.

My iron sights get me from point blank to 600 meters. (Don't ask me about my hit rate at 600m ) But on that note, how often will a civilian or even a law enforcement officer be called upon to engage a target at 600 meters with either a red dot or iron sights.
This is something I find is usually "target thinking" related more than anything else when it gets brought up. More often than not, its the .30 caliber MBR crowd thats really hot on it too. If you want something a little more realistic, take the top off an IPSC type target a couple of inches down from the shoulders, and put it on the ground somewhere at 600 yards/meters, and see if the shooter can even find it, let alone hit it. 36" bullseyes and erect black/dark green on white silhouettes dont really equate to realistic shooting.

Most battle sights, regardless of caliber are set at around 250-300 yards/meters, iron or dot, youre really dealing with the same thing.

As far as I'm concerned, a defensive rifle should be kept as simple as possible.
I agree with you here, but with advances in todays gear, things tend to favor the combat proven optics over the irons. Not that the irons arent there too, they are, but just as a back up, should they be needed. Still, you should know how to shoot with them, and practice with them on a regular basis as well.

Being a newbie to black rifles, I'm learning iron sights first.
And youre making the right choice in doing so. As with anything, you should learn to do it "long hand" so you know how to do it when technology fails (when was the last time you did a long division problem on paper with just a pencil and your brain? :)), or you need to pick up something thats not yours, and put it to work.

Im still amazed at how many people cant drive a stick these days.


I would agree with all of this when I was younger but as I get older my eyes just don't react as quick to iron sights as red dot sights.
Im in the same boat. I think once most of the approaching older crowd actually shoot them, especially away from a bench, they will find it hard to not move on.

themighty9mm
10-15-2012, 19:33
Irons for now. Went against my better judgement and bought a eotech 512. Diddnt like it, and diddnt give it enough chance either.

I have a LMT rear sight. And immediatly found the button to be a bit of a pain to reach, couldnt find a brightness setting to fit, didnt like that its not always on (knew this before purchasing) Diddnt like how low it sat, and found the circle dot to be to buisy on targets. Like I said really diddnt give it enough chance, had it for less than 48 hours.

Now I have no optic at all and am fine with it but will be purchasing a aimpoint in the future. The advantages are undeniable. Irons work and have worked for a long time, no doubt. But they will never match the speed and ease of use as an red dot.

Snaps
10-15-2012, 22:07
As far as I'm concerned, a defensive rifle should be kept as simple as possible.

might be right, but I don't consider any long gun I own to be defensive. I look at them as combat rifles.

faawrenchbndr
10-16-2012, 02:20
might be right, but I don't consider any long gun I own to be defensive. I look at them as combat rifles.

So if someone shoots at you, you're going to use a pistol to shoot back?
Any weapon can be a defensive tool.

TangoFoxtrot
10-16-2012, 03:51
He has a point snaps. Your long guns serve dual purposes combat assult and defense.

Snaps
10-16-2012, 13:50
So if someone shoots at you, you're going to use a pistol to shoot back?
Any weapon can be a defensive tool.
Yup, I sure am because I'm not going to carry a rifle around wtih me. When I did, if somebody shot at you, you still didn't play defense. You found them and killed them.
He has a point snaps. Your long guns serve dual purposes combat assult and defense.

not at all. Of course I seem to have a big issue understanding people calling anything defensive. Anytime you're shooting at somebody it's not defense. It's offense, you're trying to kill them.

Defense would be more suppressive fire.

mjkeat
10-16-2012, 22:18
not at all. Of course I seem to have a big issue understanding people calling anything defensive. Anytime you're shooting at somebody it's not defense. It's offense, you're trying to kill them.

Defense would be more suppressive fire.

But why are you shooting at them? Because they shot at you. Correct? True. As a civilian all legal shootings are defensive. Military as well. We are defending a nation against those that would bring violence against us yet again. Sometimes it's proactive, others it's reactive, but always defensive.

TangoFoxtrot
10-17-2012, 03:22
Yup, I sure am because I'm not going to carry a rifle around wtih me. When I did, if somebody shot at you, you still didn't play defense. You found them and killed them.


not at all. Of course I seem to have a big issue understanding people calling anything defensive. Anytime you're shooting at somebody it's not defense. It's offense, you're trying to kill them.

Defense would be more suppressive fire.

No defensive is why you are shooting at them in the first place to defend yourself.

Wow is this thread off the tracks.

Matthew Courtney
10-17-2012, 05:17
In good light with unlimited time, I shoot better with irons. In the real world, I shoot better with an optic. Several of our trainer rifles will use irons forever.

owl6roll
10-17-2012, 18:49
Qualification last month, one guy forgot to turn on his EoTech and missed a string of fire. Tkaes him for ever to turn it on. His iron sights skills suck, because he is so dependant on the EoTech.

Irons for me. Only attachmant is a light.

mjkeat
10-17-2012, 19:15
Qualification last month, one guy forgot to turn on his EoTech and missed a string of fire. Tkaes him for ever to turn it on. His iron sights skills suck, because he is so dependant on the EoTech.

Irons for me. Only attachmant is a light.

Sounds like the guy doesn't shoot other than quals. His lack of familiarization is more at fault than anything.

bmoore
10-17-2012, 19:19
In good light with unlimited time, I shoot better with irons. In the real world, I shoot better with an optic. Several of our trainer rifles will use irons forever.

+1. I really like irons, growing up shooting billions of pellets out of my iron site pellet guns they are a comfort zone. Once someone "knows" their rifle with the irons that person can make incredible shots with it. That being said optics can take someone to a whole new level with speed precision if need be. I am still getting used to my optic but I love it.

bmoore
10-17-2012, 19:20
Qualification last month, one guy forgot to turn on his EoTech and missed a string of fire. Tkaes him for ever to turn it on. His iron sights skills suck, because he is so dependant on the EoTech.

Irons for me. Only attachmant is a light.

That guy sucks, its not the optics fault. It takes him forever to turn it on? Turn it on on the way to the range. Turn it on when you pull it out of the cage or trunk. Tell that guy to get a job in evidence or records.

K. Foster
10-17-2012, 20:29
Qualification last month, one guy forgot to turn on his EoTech and missed a string of fire. Tkaes him for ever to turn it on. His iron sights skills suck, because he is so dependant on the EoTech.

Irons for me. Only attachmant is a light.

That's not the equipment. That's a training issue.

surf
10-17-2012, 22:05
A couple of observations or comments....

- There is nothing wrong with someone having a personal preference.

- Personal preference does not mean that there is not a better way of accomplishing something.

- Under non stress, or more ideal conditions to obtain a good sight alignment and sight picture some shooters can actually perform better with iron sights when shooting for precision. This is due to a better grasp of the fundamentals as it takes more skill and accuracy to align a dual plane iron sighting system as opposed to a single dot. Often times that dual plane iron sight will show more small imperfections in the sighting and better results can be accomplished by someone who is well schooled in all of the fundamentals.

- In combat or defensive types of shooting a red dot is undeniably a better option when correct training is obtained and correct practice is performed on behalf of the user. If a shooter does not adhere to this general guideline they are either...
1) Stubborn
2) Want to be different
3) Like being argumentative
4) Stupid
5) Ignorant of the topic (Don't know, what they don't know)
6) Relates to number 5 - Under or not properly trained and practiced with the red dot.
7) Have not experienced enough shooting situations / scenarios that clearly show the advantages.
8) Eye or medical conditions that does not allow use of red dots.
9) Are in the 99.9 percentile of shooting savants in the world (and I don't think anyone here qualifies).
or
10) A combination of any of the above.

Of course there may be other options that I missed, but that would pretty much sum it up.

Watch this video. This is a student of mine at the end of a 4 day irons only course. Obviously he is a top notch shooter but he was very reliant on his optics. We were able to take him to another level of proficiency and watch how he runs irons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPcGYCZZ51I

The key is that he is running in pretty traditional movements / positions. I don't think there is anyone who posted here that would outperform him, however he would be the first one to tell you that red dots outperform irons every day of the week and twice on Sundays and as the guy who trains many guys like him, I will tell you the same thing.

I can easily put people into real world type of simulated situations where they will easily see the clear advantages of red dots over irons with some quality training. I will say that if you like to shoot iron bullseye or are shooting for fun, rock on. If you like irons but understand the potential advantages of a red dot and still choose irons, rock on. If you poo poo red dots and think irons are always superior then see 1-10 above. :)

Snaps
10-17-2012, 23:06
Off topic as hell, but I figure I'd throw it out there, once the first rolls around I can start moving my arm around again. (Scoped, minimally invasive) so I'm gonna give that whole grip you explained to me a shot and see how it works. Many MANY moons ago I was pretty damned good with those guns, we shall see how it works out.

THat said, I have a lot of trouble believing anybody who's ever had to do it for real would say irons over optics.

There aren't a lot of good sight alignment/picture shots taking place when somebody is shooting back. Putting a gun at an awkward angle that still lets you stay behind cover and pull a trigger is a hell of a lot better an idea than properly shooting wtih irons.

Given, guys like surf and others have done this in a much different way over the years than I have, but like I said somewhere else..... Marines are notoriously hard headed when it comes to changing things from how we've been taught. Yet every one I've known has quickly adapted to red dots and fallen in love with them. A lot of folks prefer ACOGs, but they're just not as quick.

Batesmotel
10-17-2012, 23:15
Love irons. I qualified expert with the M16A1 and M16A2. Tight center of mass hits at 500 meters.

TangoFoxtrot
10-18-2012, 03:49
Qualification last month, one guy forgot to turn on his EoTech and missed a string of fire. Tkaes him for ever to turn it on. His iron sights skills suck, because he is so dependant on the EoTech.

Irons for me. Only attachmant is a light.


That is part of the problem when people get so dependent on their optic they never train with their irons.

Matthew Courtney
10-18-2012, 08:41
That is part of the problem when people get so dependent on their optic they never train with their irons.

I believe that rifle shooters should master shooting with iron sights first, and then move on to an optic. Learning with irons first forces a shooter to habitually get a good cheek weld as the rifle comes up and that will make them faster and more consistent when the begin to use an optic. Using an optic first, especially a RDS, allows a shooter to be inconsistent with their cheek weld and it is easier to train a consistent cheek weld from the beginning than to develop consistency once slop has been habituated.

M&P15T
10-18-2012, 09:08
I believe that rifle shooters should master shooting with iron sights first, and then move on to an optic. Learning with irons first forces a shooter to habitually get a good cheek weld as the rifle comes up and that will make them faster and more consistent when the begin to use an optic. Using an optic first, especially a RDS, allows a shooter to be inconsistent with their cheek weld and it is easier to train a consistent cheek weld from the beginning than to develop consistency once slop has been habituated.

Well, using irons and using optics are two different things to master. You could choose to master one, the other, or both.

I'm not interested in using irons, spending the time and money mastering them, but that's just me.

series1811
10-18-2012, 09:11
I always have electronic sights, either Aimpoint, or EOTech, on my work ARs, but just iron sights on my fun ARs (I don't have lights, or slings, on the fun ones, either).

K. Foster
10-18-2012, 10:02
THat said, I have a lot of trouble believing anybody who's ever had to do it for real would say irons over optics.

There aren't a lot of good sight alignment/picture shots taking place when somebody is shooting back. Putting a gun at an awkward angle that still lets you stay behind cover and pull a trigger is a hell of a lot better an idea than properly shooting wtih irons.

I agree. Especially in low light.

Matthew Courtney
10-18-2012, 19:01
Well, using irons and using optics are two different things to master. You could choose to master one, the other, or both.

I'm not interested in using irons, spending the time and money mastering them, but that's just me.


Most rifle shooters will shoot a RDS better if they master shooting with iron sights first. The fundamentals of rifle marksmanship are the same for both irons and optics. Irons are less forgiving so they require more consistency and focus to shoot well. The consistency and focus irons help shooters develop make the advantages of RDS and optics easier to maximize.

Take cheek weld for example. With irons, a consistent chekweld is essential while with a RDS head position has broad parameters. Putting your head in the same psoition makes putting the dot on target very natural and easy. While varying head position complicates finding the dot on the target. When fractions of a second count, simplicity reigns supreme.

Gunnut 45/454
10-18-2012, 19:17
I have a A2 carbine, had a A2 HBAR rifle. I like shooting irons as that was how I was trained.:supergrin:

TangoFoxtrot
10-19-2012, 03:50
Well, using irons and using optics are two different things to master. You could choose to master one, the other, or both.

I'm not interested in using irons, spending the time and money mastering them, but that's just me.
Remember in a tactical situation you had best master the iron sights first because if the optics fail then your screwed.

I always have electronic sights, either Aimpoint, or EOTech, on my work ARs, but just iron sights on my fun ARs (I don't have lights, or slings, on the fun ones, either).

See the above.

TangoFoxtrot
10-22-2012, 03:55
Whats a good fixed rear sight to match my A2 front sight.

M&P15T
10-22-2012, 07:57
Most rifle shooters will shoot a RDS better if they master shooting with iron sights first. The fundamentals of rifle marksmanship are the same for both irons and optics. Irons are less forgiving so they require more consistency and focus to shoot well. The consistency and focus irons help shooters develop make the advantages of RDS and optics easier to maximize.

Take cheek weld for example. With irons, a consistent chekweld is essential while with a RDS head position has broad parameters. Putting your head in the same psoition makes putting the dot on target very natural and easy. While varying head position complicates finding the dot on the target. When fractions of a second count, simplicity reigns supreme.

Or, you could choose to address this from the opposite direction, if we're going to focus on HD/SD and what people choose to practice with when they go to the range.

Cheek weld means nothing for using an RDS at close ranges for HD/SD, where speed is king. So, don't bother wasting time and money with irons, focus on training with the RDS you would actually use.

Worried about finding the red dot quickly? Practice it. No matter what, you'll be far, faaar faster aquiring your target with a RDS than irons. Hell, the uber competetive AR gaming shooters don't even seem to use any cheek weld at all.

If find it a bit disconcerting that some fail to understand that most people's time and money for shooting is not unlimited, and is best utilized by focusing on what you would really do in an HD/SD situation, if that is what we're to focus this discussion on.

M&P15T
10-22-2012, 08:01
Remember in a tactical situation you had best master the iron sights first because if the optics fail then your screwed.

:rofl::rofl:

This isn't combat.

At worst we're talking about HD/SD, where a very babied, safe queen of an AR will be used. No need to worry about RDSs failing.

scccdoc
10-22-2012, 08:32
I,m going to an RDS soon but not for HD/SD. I have an 870 with a Surefire and Glock 27 with night sights for that, it suits my personal home layout. The RDS (Aimpoint Pro, Eotech, or tritium version) will be for range fun or shtf (God forbid)(don't like the shtf phrase). To each his own.......... DOC

LA_357SIG
10-22-2012, 09:44
I like iron sights on an AR. RDS and optics are an advantage in certian situations, but most shooters use them as a crutch. Optics malfunction. (ETA: Batteries die, glass cracks, fog, moisture, zero shift, broken mount, etc.) It's a fact. Irons rarely do. Better to master the constant, than to rely on the variable.

ETA2:
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k252/chrisq_01/IMAG1118.jpg

mjkeat
10-22-2012, 09:50
Cheek weld means nothing for using an RDS at close ranges for HD/SD, where speed is king. So, don't bother wasting time and money with irons, focus on training with the RDS you would actually use.

Hell, the uber competetive AR gaming shooters don't even seem to use any cheek weld at all.

What experience brings you to this conclusion?



:rofl::rofl:

This isn't combat.

At worst we're talking about HD/SD, where a very babied, safe queen of an AR will be used. No need to worry about RDSs failing.

Did he say combat or tactical situation?


Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

mjkeat
10-22-2012, 09:52
I like iron sights on an AR. RDS and optics are an advantage in certian situations, but most shooters use them as a crutch. Optics malfunction. (ETA: Batteries die, glass cracks, fog, moisture, zero shift, broken mount, etc.) It's a fact. Irons rarely do. Better to master the constant, than to rely on the variable.

Are there stats available concerning quality optics such as the T1/H1 and failure? That would be a good read.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

LA_357SIG
10-22-2012, 09:59
Are there stats available concerning quality optics such as the T1/H1 and failure? That would be a good read.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

You can research it yourself. If you find anything, be sure to post here.

mjkeat
10-22-2012, 10:14
You can research it yourself. If you find anything, be sure to post here.

Exactly what I was expecting.

What situations are optics not ideal?

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

M&P15T
10-22-2012, 11:25
I like iron sights on an AR. RDS and optics are an advantage in certian situations, but most shooters use them as a crutch. Optics malfunction. (ETA: Batteries die, glass cracks, fog, moisture, zero shift, broken mount, etc.) It's a fact. Irons rarely do. Better to master the constant, than to rely on the variable.

How much experience do you have with an Aimpoint or Eotech optic? You seem to be relaying concerns that aren't that realistic.

LA_357SIG
10-22-2012, 12:08
Exactly what I was expecting.

What situations are optics not ideal?

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

What exactly were you expecting. You wanted info on a certian optic? You do the research. My statement referred to optics in general. Unless you can prove optics do not malfunction, then your response to my statement was pointless, or you were attempting to start an arguement.

And where did I say optics weren't ideal? I did say in certian situations they were an advantage. Speed is not always better. Precision in most cases is.

mjkeat
10-22-2012, 13:09
double post

mjkeat
10-22-2012, 13:12
What exactly were you expecting. You wanted info on a certian optic? You do the research. My statement referred to optics in general. Unless you can prove optics do not malfunction, then your response to my statement was pointless, or you were attempting to start an arguement.

And where did I say optics weren't ideal? I did say in certian situations they were an advantage. Speed is not always better. Precision in most cases is.

I asked you for some supporting evidence to your statement. It was a general question. I supplied a specific optic hoping it might make your job of finding supporting evidence. I expected that you had none and I was correct.

You mention that RDS brake and irons rarely do. This would lead one to believe you feel optics fail more than rarely. I want to know where you found this information as I have never had a quality optic fail let alone more frequently than rarely.

You made the statement therefore the burden of proof falls on you. I was very polite about it but received the response I expected. Meaning I knew you had no experience or were in possession of any technical data to back your claim.

I didn't say you said they were not ideal. You said they were ideal in certain situations. That means there are situations you feel they are not. I was curious as to the situations you felt they were not.

So a magnified optic is less accurate than iron sights?

Thats it.

LA_357SIG
10-22-2012, 14:01
[...snip...]

Thats it.

I agree.

mjkeat
10-22-2012, 14:10
What's w/ all these jokers that make stern statements than get soft when asked to provide support? Right or wrong support your statement.

Warp
10-22-2012, 15:07
Most rifle shooters will shoot a RDS better if they master shooting with iron sights first. The fundamentals of rifle marksmanship are the same for both irons and optics. Irons are less forgiving so they require more consistency and focus to shoot well. The consistency and focus irons help shooters develop make the advantages of RDS and optics easier to maximize.

Take cheek weld for example. With irons, a consistent chekweld is essential while with a RDS head position has broad parameters. Putting your head in the same psoition makes putting the dot on target very natural and easy. While varying head position complicates finding the dot on the target. When fractions of a second count, simplicity reigns supreme.

What if you, say, use a flip up BUIS with an absolute co-witness to your RDS, and train with the sites up, only viewing the dot through the sites?

K. Foster
10-22-2012, 15:33
What experience brings you to this conclusion?

He's self taught.

fnfalman
10-22-2012, 15:39
:rofl::rofl:

This isn't combat.

At worst we're talking about HD/SD, where a very babied, safe queen of an AR will be used. No need to worry about RDSs failing.

Very true. At close range, you can even point and hit with a long arm.

Warp
10-22-2012, 15:46
:

At worst we're talking about HD/SD, where a very babied, safe queen of an AR will be used.

You might baby your safe queen HD gun, but plenty of others do not.

M&P15T
10-22-2012, 16:29
You might baby your safe queen HD gun, but plenty of others do not.

As ususal, such discussions sort posters into two basic groups.

There are those that take ARs very, very seriously, as if combat (for a civilian AR owner) is always something lurking just around the next corner.

Then there are those that use ARs for fun, recreation and basic HD/SD, and take them less seriously.

Those two groups are basically never going to agree on topics like these. And the same basic arguments sprout up in thread after thread.

Let's just agree to disagree, such arguing is completely pointless. If you want to be uber serious about your AR and how you use it, fine, just don't expect that everyone else does. Doing so can end much strife around here.

Matthew Courtney
10-22-2012, 16:32
:rofl::rofl:

This isn't combat.

At worst we're talking about HD/SD, where a very babied, safe queen of an AR will be used. No need to worry about RDSs failing.

If you do not understand that using deadly force to defend one's family against an invasion of one's home is combat, than you do not have a sufficient grasp of the subject matter to be having a serious conversation about it.

M&P15T
10-22-2012, 16:32
You might baby your safe queen HD gun, but plenty of others do not.

Plenty of others? Sure, that post here.

Fact is that the VAST majority of AR owners are nowhere near as serious about owning and using ARs as some posters here.

Hell, the VAST majority of AR owners don't even belong to web-boards like G.T., M4Carbine and the like. Most just use them for fun, recreation, and basic SD/HD.

mjkeat
10-22-2012, 16:33
You hit the nail on the head there. You have it all figured out. Self Defense isn't a serious issue, requires no tactical awareness, or firearm proficiency at all.

What's basic self defense. Are there different levels?

Vast majority? What's your source?

You know what would stop the useless back and forth? Staying in ones lane.

Matthew Courtney
10-22-2012, 16:39
Or, you could choose to address this from the opposite direction, if we're going to focus on HD/SD and what people choose to practice with when they go to the range.

Cheek weld means nothing for using an RDS at close ranges for HD/SD, where speed is king. So, don't bother wasting time and money with irons, focus on training with the RDS you would actually use.

Worried about finding the red dot quickly? Practice it. No matter what, you'll be far, faaar faster aquiring your target with a RDS than irons. Hell, the uber competetive AR gaming shooters don't even seem to use any cheek weld at all.

If find it a bit disconcerting that some fail to understand that most people's time and money for shooting is not unlimited, and is best utilized by focusing on what you would really do in an HD/SD situation, if that is what we're to focus this discussion on.

There is not a police force or military unit on the planet that tries to teach gunfighting techniques to folks before they teach basic firearms safety and marksmanship. Not one. But hey, maybe all of them are doing it wrong and they could save time and money by doing it your way. Just start slinging lead while looking for the RDS. No need for a cheeck weld that makes it easy to find that red dot every time. What an antiquated approach.

M&P15T
10-22-2012, 16:48
If you do not understand that using deadly force to defend one's family against an invasion of one's home is combat, than you do not have a sufficient grasp of the subject matter to be having a serious conversation about it.

That's understandable.

Doesn't mean I'm gonna head to basic training to get ready for it.

Sorry, my life does not revolve around fearing the world around me, to the point where I think I need to be ready for combat at the drop of a hat.

Ya know, like....well, like most normal people.

One way you could look at it, is that the world is not seperated into two distinct and opposite groups. There is not only uber-combat-ready types, and meek, sheeple, victims-to-be types.

There are huge chunks of the population that fall somewhere in between. Folks that can defend themselves and their families well enough to handle the majority of possible negative situations, but don't get into the COMBAT, uber-ninja mentality.

You wanna be ready for anything and everything? Great, spend what time, effort and money you feel is appropriate. I myself don't feel the need to be ready to fight off hoardes of terrorists trying to break down my front door. I myself feel comfortable in knowing I could handle the basic bad situations.

You do what you want to do, I'll do what I want to do.

M&P15T
10-22-2012, 16:55
There is not a police force or military unit on the planet that tries to teach gunfighting techniques to folks before they teach basic firearms safety and marksmanship. Not one. But hey, maybe all of them are doing it wrong and they could save time and money by doing it your way. Just start slinging lead while looking for the RDS. No need for a cheeck weld that makes it easy to find that red dot every time. What an antiquated approach.

If you feel the need to be ready for combat, or gunfighting, however you want to define it, it's your call.

mjkeat
10-22-2012, 17:00
Thinking you can handle a situation and being able to are not one in the same. Under stress I have never seen anyone rise to the occassion. I doubt anyone here is an exception.

M&P15T
10-22-2012, 17:04
I find it funny that I don't find the same strife in other areas, like the General Firearms Forum, as is seen here.

Only here in the BRF are there so many people that are so passionate about being ready for anything and everything. The AR15, being the current Military go-to small arm, definitely attracts people that can take it as nothing less than their sword and shield.

Posting in this thread shows that there are several folks here that think that you are either an AR Master 3rd degree, or you're nothing....well, less than nothing, really. Like there is only black, or white, and nothing in-between.

Funny, but many, many firearms owners manage to defend themselves and their family with nothing more than an old family shotgun, .38 snubby, Grandpa's .45 he brought home from the war, or an el-cheapo whatever-you-have-at-hand....

And most of them never went to a combat/gunfighting training course, or served in the Military. Many folks manage to make it through tough HD/SD situations without an AR and combat assault training. Hang out in the GNG lounge a bit. Stories of un-trained people without ARs managing to defend themselves, their homes and family are posted all the time.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/10/19/oklahoma-girl-12-shoot-suspected-burglar/

Hell, it happens everyday in this country. Little old ladies that use a walker shoot intruders. CCWers that can barely load their snubbies manage to stay alive and pop some caps into B.G.s. Even children defend themselves from intruders using Dad's night-stand pistol....hell, a first hand account of that happening was just posted in the GNG Lounge. And I'm pretty sure that kid hadn't been through the SEAL assaulter course yet.

Ya'll do what you think you need to do, and stop thinking that it's necessary for everyone else to think and act the same way.

mjkeat
10-22-2012, 17:38
It's funny the amount of people satisfied w/ managing to get by or crossing their fingers and hoping to make it through. If managing to stay alive is alright w/ you then so be it. Natural selection comes to mind. If you want to swing the odds in your favor familiarize. You will not, repeat, will not rise to the occassion. Luck and or managing to come out on top should not be the goal for any red blooded man.

It reminds me of the difference in the team my son plays for and the ones they play against. His team is a, have fun and socialize type of team. The others have obviously prepared to win as they completely destroy my sons team week after week. They may be in it for the fun but the other teams are not. You may keep firearms for fun but not everyone does. You don't choose your opposition so prepare for the greatest denominator not the weakest link.

M&P15T
10-22-2012, 17:42
It's funny the amount of people satisfied w/ managing to get by or crossing their fingers and hoping to make it through. If managing to stay alive is alright w/ you then so be it. Natural selection comes to mind. If you want to swing the odds in your favor familiarize. You will not, repeat, will not rise to the occassion. Luck and or managing to come out on top should not be the goal for any red blooded man.

It reminds me of the difference in the team my son plays for and the ones they play against. His team is a, have fun and socialize type of team. The others have obviously prepared to win as they completely destroy my sons team week after week. They may be in it for the fun but the other teams are not. You may keep firearms for fun but not everyone does. You don't choose your opposition so prepare for the greatest denominator not the weakest link.

:rofl::rofl:

Yeah, dude, managing to stay alive is defintely alright with me.

Again, you do what you feel you need to do, the rest of us will somehow manage to get buy. Best idea is to not piss off any jihadists, drug dealers, rabid pimps, Dr. Lector, those types of folks.

I made it through Detroit, and that was as bad as it's ever likely to get.

Warp
10-22-2012, 17:53
Hell, the VAST majority of AR owners don't even belong to web-boards like G.T., M4Carbine and the like. Most just use them for fun, recreation, and basic SD/HD.

I notice you didn't list "babied safe queen" in there.

M&P15T
10-22-2012, 17:57
I notice you didn't list "babied safe queen" in there.

Yeah....I used it earlier.

Kinda figured it was just a given at this point.

Not a lot of civilian AR owners jumping out of planes or taking part in MOUT operations.

Take care of your weapon and it will most likely work should you need it. There can be no absolutes, nothing man made is 100% perfect.

faawrenchbndr
10-22-2012, 18:04
I made it through Detroit, and that was as bad as it's ever likely to get.



Take a trip to East St Louis. :whistling:

Warp
10-22-2012, 18:04
Yeah....I used it earlier.

Kinda figured it was just a given at this point.

Not a lot of civilian AR owners jumping out of planes or taking part in MOUT operations.

Take care of your weapon and it will most likely work should you need it. There are no absolutes, nothing is 100% certain.

As long as you are happy with your your babied safe queen AR, it's all good. :cool:

M&P15T
10-22-2012, 18:10
Take a trip to East St Louis. :whistling:

I lived in Detroit, no need to visit another **** hole. There's too many dotting the landscape of this country.

As long as you are happy with your your babied safe queen AR, it's all good. :cool:

Well, I'm happy with it because I maintain it well, and I don't knock it around or abuse it un-necessarily. She's got thousands of 100% reliable rounds through her, and that's as sure as I can be. Speaking of which, she's still needing some love after my trip to the range last Tuesday.

I can't imagine how much of a let-down it would be to purchase an expensive, everything you want AR, and find it's un-reliable. Jeeze, that would really be a pisser.

mjkeat
10-22-2012, 18:35
I made it through Detroit, and that was as bad as it's ever likely to get.

"As bad as it's ever LIKELY to get." Were you a victim of a home invasion, sexual assault, an assault of any kind? Did you have to take a life to avoid loosing yours?

M&P15T
10-22-2012, 18:41
"As bad as it's ever LIKELY to get." Were you a victim of a home invasion, sexual assault, an assault of any kind? Did you have to take a life to avoid loosing yours?

3 break-in and robberies, never when I was home.

I consider never having to pull the trigger (pulled my pistol 4 times thinking I would) a major positive. I'm not looking to take a life if it can be avoided.

mjkeat
10-22-2012, 18:43
Not a lot of civilian AR owners .... taking part in MOUT operations.

Take a second and look up from your monitor. What do you see?

NeverMore1701
10-22-2012, 18:49
Take a second and look up from your monitor. What do you see?

Two chicks doing it on the TV. What's that got to do with anything?


:tongueout:

M&P15T
10-22-2012, 18:50
Take a second and look up from your monitor. What do you see?

47" T.V. with the basball game on. Sanfran is up 1-0.

To the left is my cat licking his own ass. Kinds grosse, he slurps when he does it. Diggin for all he's worth. They should make ass-flavored cat food.

Guess he likes a clean ass.

M&P15T
10-22-2012, 18:51
Two chicks doing it on the TV. What's that got to do with anything?


:tongueout:

Damn, that's a better answer than mine!!!

You watching Skinemax?

mjkeat
10-22-2012, 18:55
3 break-in and robberies, never when I was home.

I consider never having to pull the trigger (pulled my pistol 4 times thinking I would) a major positive. I'm not looking to take a life if it can be avoided.

You fail to grasp the point. If that time ever comes you'll be thinking of this conversation wishing you would have listened to those with experience instead of arguing your "i read" or "i believe" and "i think".

Not trying to be a jerk about it but you need to take a step back and listen to those who have experienced the things you only encounter in your sleep.

There's always someone who knows more or has been through more. This goes for everyone.

mjkeat
10-22-2012, 18:57
Two chicks doing it on the TV. What's that got to do with anything?


:tongueout:

47" T.V. with the basball game on. Sanfran is up 1-0.

To the left is my cat licking his own ass. Kinds grosse, he slurps when he does it. Diggin for all he's worth. They should make ass-flavored cat food.

Guess he likes a clean ass.

Do you two know what MOUT is? I guess you already answered that question w/ your above responces.

NeverMore1701
10-22-2012, 19:00
Do you two know what MOUT is? I guess you already answered that question w/ your above responces.

Yeah yeah, just funnin' with ya.

mjkeat
10-22-2012, 19:05
When a guy says the likelyhood of a MOUT situation is slim while sitting in the very definition of a MOUT backdrop it raises an eyebrow. Or atleast it should.

M&P15T
10-22-2012, 19:09
You fail to grasp the point. If that time ever comes you'll be thinking of this conversation wishing you would have listened to those with experience instead of arguing your "i read" or "i believe" and "i think".

Not trying to be a jerk about it but you need to take a step back and listen to those who have experienced the things you only encounter in your sleep.

There's always someone who knows more or has been through more. This goes for everyone.

No, I don't fail to grasp your point.

I can defend myself. Better than probably 99% of the people around me in a several block radius. But then I live very close to the Pentagon, so I really can't extend that radius too far.

What I don't do is live in fear of non-existant threats, I just try to focus on the real ones. I'm in a safe area, with enough cops around that the likelyhood of anything bad happening without a swift and furious LEO response is seriously, seriously low. I face far more danger of getting in an auto-accident, or getting food poisening, than urban combat. I'm more worried about using my seat-belt and watching out for bad drivers, rather than looking for the boogeyman lurking in the parking lot that would chose me as his potential vicitim, and not the young females walking around everywhere.

Bad things can happen anywhere, no doubt about it. But there are percentages, statistics and likelyhoods that normal folks understand.

This isn't Detroit or St. Louis, and I'm not gonna open-carry my AR around.

M&P15T
10-22-2012, 19:12
When a guy says the likelyhood of a MOUT situation is slim while sitting in the very definition of a MOUT backdrop it raises an eyebrow. Or atleast it should.

What raises my eyebrow, is someone infering that they think I might someday need to engage in my own little MOUT operation to clear the neighborhood of baddies that are out to get me.

Paranoia will destroy ya.

Don't hang out with drunkards, druggies, losers, murderers, rapists, muggers, and other first-class citizenry, and your chances of having to mow one down with your AR is dramatically lowered.

Nothing is for certain, but the statistics are in your favor of not having to go Rambo 2.0 if you pay a little attention to what you do, where you do it, and who you do it with.

Then you can, ya know....have fun in life.

mjkeat
10-22-2012, 19:18
How do you know how versed you are in self defense. What's your measuring stick?

Can MOUT not be confined to your home?

You don't seem to be able to see the whole picture and lack attention to detail.

You're not grasping the point or you'd be reading/listening and no longer typing.

M&P15T
10-22-2012, 19:31
How do you know how versed you are in self defense. What's your measuring stick?

Can MOUT not be confined to your home?

You don't seem to be able to see the whole picture and lack attention to detail.

You're not grasping the point or you'd be reading/listening and no longer typing.

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Self-defense is something you obviously take very, very seriously.

Good for you. I'm happy to say I don't take it anywhere near as seriously as you do.

The rest of the world is watching baseball and having a few beers, and one other person is ****ing with you on the internet while enjoying the game.

If I ever have to shoot an intruder in my apartment, I will most surely NOT use the acronym MOUT while I describe how balls-to-the-wall I went with my AR.

Cops might think I'm crazy or something.

No dude, the real point is that you see threats and combat lurking around every corner, plan your life around it, and believe others should do the same. Go ahead and make all of the suggestions and share all of your thoughts as you care to. Just understand that normal, healthy folks see that there are many other threats that are statistically far more likely to be of real concern, so not everyone is planning for MOUT operations in their homes.

12 year old girls can pull off capping intruders from the closet they're hiding in.....so I'm certain you're gonna be o.k. big guy.

mjkeat
10-22-2012, 20:11
:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Self-defense is something you obviously take very, very seriously.

Good for you. I'm happy to say I don't take it anywhere near as seriously as you do.

The rest of the world is watching baseball and having a few beers, and one other person is ****ing with you on the internet while enjoying the game.

If I ever have to shoot an intruder in my apartment, I will most surely NOT use the acronym MOUT while I describe how balls-to-the-wall I went with my AR.

Cops might think I'm crazy or something.

No dude, the real point is that you see threats and combat lurking around every corner, plan your life around it, and believe others should do the same. Go ahead and make all of the suggestions and share all of your thoughts as you care to. Just understand that normal, healthy folks see that there are many other threats that are statistically far more likely to be of real concern, so not everyone is planning for MOUT operations in their homes.

12 year old girls can pull off capping intruders from the closet they're hiding in.....so I'm certain you're gonna be o.k. big guy.

Thank you, I do take it seriously as I have had to in my past and make a living doing so now. You are they type we laugh at and feel sorry for simultaneously. It's hard not to become jaded.

I guess I can't blame you for not understanding, you've never had to.

Being a warrior from the mean streets of Detroit you should understand the threats that may present themselves.

I'm more of a No Reservations, steak, and wine kinda guy. In fact I have a full stomach and a nice buzz.

I have a feeling that if balls and walls are involved in a home invasion including you it would be you against a wall w/ someones balls bouncing off of your inner thighs.

M&P15T
10-22-2012, 20:16
Thank you, I do take it seriously as I have had to in my past and make a living doing so now. You are they type we laugh at and feel sorry for simultaneously. It's hard not to become jaded.

I guess I can't blame you for not understanding, you've never had to.

Being a warrior from the mean streets of Detroit you should understand the threats that may present themselves.

I'm more of a No Reservations, steak, and wine kinda guy. In fact I have a full stomach and a nice buzz.

I have a feeling that if balls and walls are involved in a home invasion including you it would be you against a wall w/ someones balls bouncing off of your inner thighs.

When you say "we", I get very, very nervous.

Something about you and other heavily armed paranoid delusionals believing that bad things are ready to kick off that will require you to stage your own MOUT operation at the local dog-park, is disconcerting to say the least. Hell, I don't know, maybe I actually feel good about it, I'm not sure.

Please, make yourself available to me whenever I need you. Keep GT up on your smart phone. When the boogeyman comes to get me here in Arlington, when the Jihadists attack D.C. en-masse and I need to escape the area, I will contact you and you can come rescue me, my knight in shinning AR armor.

mjkeat
10-22-2012, 20:22
Cute.

You can use Aunt Sally (British term for logical fallacy) all you want. You're just falling further behind the curve.

M&P15T
10-22-2012, 20:24
Cute.

You can use Aunt Sally (British term for logical fallacy) all you want. You're just falling further behind the curve.

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

I no longer have to care about "the curve", I've got you and your AR a PM away, don't I Super Man?

Gosh, you're dreamy!!!!:rofl::rofl:

mjkeat
10-22-2012, 20:35
I actually am a very attractive guy. It works well w/ the ladies. Rugged and attractive. Big hands. Size 13 shoe. Golden. Cha-Ching!

M&P15T
10-22-2012, 20:37
I actually am a very attractive guy. It works well w/ the ladies. Rugged and attractive. Big hands. Size 13 shoe. Golden. Cha-Ching!

Let's switch to PMs, we don't need to continue hi-jacking threads we're hopping back and forth between.

mjkeat
10-22-2012, 20:52
I'll end this now as the wine is gone and my steak is an ancient memory.

You have no idea of what you are talking about. People try to help you and others by pointing you in the right direction. The thing is despite the masses telling you are wrong you insist on arguing. You argue w/ guys who have outrageous amounts of hands on experience. When they correct you you go on a strawman fallacy trying to detract from their knowledge. It would be much easier if you just listened and sought the instruction you need. You would understand the things being talked about and not feel like one of the kids at the kiddy table during XMas dinner.

We all go through it. I work w/ guys who can run a handgun like crazy. I don't talk ****, I listen. My old boss was a trainer for Triple Canopy, I was all ears. I didn't take it personal that they knew more than me. I took it as a godsend and a challenge as well as a great opportunity to better myself. Pride is good but don't let it get in the way.

Take it or leave it.

Done.

surf
10-22-2012, 21:01
Most rifle shooters will shoot a RDS better if they master shooting with iron sights first. The fundamentals of rifle marksmanship are the same for both irons and optics. Irons are less forgiving so they require more consistency and focus to shoot well. The consistency and focus irons help shooters develop make the advantages of RDS and optics easier to maximize.

Take cheek weld for example. With irons, a consistent chekweld is essential while with a RDS head position has broad parameters. Putting your head in the same psoition makes putting the dot on target very natural and easy. While varying head position complicates finding the dot on the target. When fractions of a second count, simplicity reigns supreme.I agree 100% and it is a big philosophy in my teaching and curriculum. I mostly teach guys who have earned or proven themselves to be where they are at. They are top notch shooters, however I always break them down to irons and a rapid progression of revisiting fundamentals in a correct progression. 99.9% have always become tremendously better shooters as their training progresses into advanced shooting courses.

I believe that rifle shooters should master shooting with iron sights first, and then move on to an optic. Learning with irons first forces a shooter to habitually get a good cheek weld as the rifle comes up and that will make them faster and more consistent when the begin to use an optic. Using an optic first, especially a RDS, allows a shooter to be inconsistent with their cheek weld and it is easier to train a consistent cheek weld from the beginning than to develop consistency once slop has been habituated.I agree and I am sure you understand this, but for others reading there is much more than just cheek weld that can be benefited from training irons first. Much much more and I am not talking about just advanced shooters, but anyone even recreational shooters.

Or, you could choose to address this from the opposite direction, if we're going to focus on HD/SD and what people choose to practice with when they go to the range.

If I chose to use a crappy racket, old tennis balls and use piss poor technique, should I just go ahead and keep practicing that because I chose it? Or would I be better served to buy decent (not the best) equipment and get some quality instruction? Would I be considerably better with quality equipment and instruction in perhaps half the time, or considerably less time?

Cheek weld means nothing for using an RDS at close ranges for HD/SD, where speed is king. So, don't bother wasting time and money with irons, focus on training with the RDS you would actually use.

This is not a good assumption or something that one should rely upon. A fast miss, is still a miss. Having a good consistent or repeatable shooting platform is the best option even if we are not getting a traditional sight alignment / sight picture as in reflexive shooting methods. However it should be noted that repeatable techniques especially with a rifle are much more benefited from more contact points on the rifle itself. Cheek weld is a huge plus if it is a viable option it should be utilitized.

Worried about finding the red dot quickly? Practice it. No matter what, you'll be far, faaar faster aquiring your target with a RDS than irons. Hell, the uber competetive AR gaming shooters don't even seem to use any cheek weld at all.

The fastest way to achieve a quick dot acquisition is consistency each and every time, which is most effectively done with a consistent presentation of the rifle, to include cheek weld. Most shooters, even highly experienced shooters will often "fish" for the dot when shooting from non-traditional or improvised shooting positions and will invariably be much slower. Your comment about "uber competetive AR gaming shooters" is 100% false in regards to cheek welds. I will also add that these shooters are also leaps and bounds ahead of 99.9% of all shooters and it is ludicrous to think that those 99.9% of shooters could hope to be able to perform, or get away with the things that they can do with a rifle in their genre of shooting.

If find it a bit disconcerting that some fail to understand that most people's time and money for shooting is not unlimited, and is best utilized by focusing on what you would really do in an HD/SD situation, if that is what we're to focus this discussion on.

Again I don't necessarily disagree with this statement, but anyone who purchases a firearm with the intent to protect their own life or the life of loved ones, should take the opportunity to get good basic training in the fundamentals. It is just like anything else, tennis as an example...Wouldn't I be better off learning basic fundamentals first, or just skip to the advanced stuff because I am short on time and funds? If I spent 100% of my time and funds on practicing 100% incorrect, where is my benefit?

Now if I had $1000 and a new shooter.....What is better a $160 Hi Point and $840 in ammo and turn them lose on their own on a range for two weeks. Or a $500 Glock $300 in ammo and $200 on a basic 1 day course? I can tell you which one would be more prepared and got more for their time and money.


Very true. At close range, you can even point and hit with a long arm.Yep, just like a shotgun. Point and shoot, no aiming needed. I don't think someone who does not even have a solid grasp on basic marksmanship fundamentals, say not knowing how to use irons effectively, should be relied upon with their lives to be able to do any type of reflexive fire techniques without quality training and practice.

If you do not understand that using deadly force to defend one's family against an invasion of one's home is combat, than you do not have a sufficient grasp of the subject matter to be having a serious conversation about it.Agreed

That's understandable.

Doesn't mean I'm gonna head to basic training to get ready for it.

Sorry, my life does not revolve around fearing the world around me, to the point where I think I need to be ready for combat at the drop of a hat.

Ya know, like....well, like most normal people.

One way you could look at it, is that the world is not seperated into two distinct and opposite groups. There is not only uber-combat-ready types, and meek, sheeple, victims-to-be types.

There are huge chunks of the population that fall somewhere in between. Folks that can defend themselves and their families well enough to handle the majority of possible negative situations, but don't get into the COMBAT, uber-ninja mentality.

You wanna be ready for anything and everything? Great, spend what time, effort and money you feel is appropriate. I myself don't feel the need to be ready to fight off hoardes of terrorists trying to break down my front door. I myself feel comfortable in knowing I could handle the basic bad situations.

You do what you want to do, I'll do what I want to do.With 23 years scraping up the mess, I will say that the majority of people who are/were victims of violent crime (outside of criminals) never thought it would happen to them or that the need to prepare was not even close to a priority in their life. Fatal mistake for many of them.

I find it funny that I don't find the same strife in other areas, like the General Firearms Forum, as is seen here.

Only here in the BRF are there so many people that are so passionate about being ready for anything and everything. The AR15, being the current Military go-to small arm, definitely attracts people that can take it as nothing less than their sword and shield.

Posting in this thread shows that there are several folks here that think that you are either an AR Master 3rd degree, or you're nothing....well, less than nothing, really. Like there is only black, or white, and nothing in-between.

Funny, but many, many firearms owners manage to defend themselves and their family with nothing more than an old family shotgun, .38 snubby, Grandpa's .45 he brought home from the war, or an el-cheapo whatever-you-have-at-hand....

And most of them never went to a combat/gunfighting training course, or served in the Military. Many folks manage to make it through tough HD/SD situations without an AR and combat assault training. Hang out in the GNG lounge a bit. Stories of un-trained people without ARs managing to defend themselves, their homes and family are posted all the time.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/10/19/oklahoma-girl-12-shoot-suspected-burglar/

Hell, it happens everyday in this country. Little old ladies that use a walker shoot intruders. CCWers that can barely load their snubbies manage to stay alive and pop some caps into B.G.s. Even children defend themselves from intruders using Dad's night-stand pistol....hell, a first hand account of that happening was just posted in the GNG Lounge. And I'm pretty sure that kid hadn't been through the SEAL assaulter course yet.

Ya'll do what you think you need to do, and stop thinking that it's necessary for everyone else to think and act the same way.There are far far more stories of people who are statistics on the negative end of the scale than those who are successful at defending themselves. Preparedness is something that increases your odds of success and as a firearm owner who keeps a weapon in the home for defense proper training should go hand in hand. I am not talking ninja courses, but a good solid basic course. And no, I don't say that it needs to be an AR. Not in the least.

mingaa
10-22-2012, 21:12
1 AR - 1-4 scope with 45* BUIS and switch between the two as needed - 3-gun style.

Warp
10-22-2012, 21:15
3 break-in and robberies, never when I was home.


So where were you when you were robbed??


Pro Tip: If somebody broke into your house when nobody was there, it was not a robbery

M&P15T
10-22-2012, 21:22
So where were you when you were robbed??


Pro Tip: If somebody broke into your house when nobody was there, it was not a robbery

You're right. I should have told the police that I wasn't robbed, since I wasn't there. Seems they thought I had been, since most of my stuff was gone.

Semantics is a beautiful thing.

themighty9mm
10-22-2012, 21:23
De ja Vue.
Lol A friend of mine and I just had almost this exact same conversation at work today. Only he played mp15t, and I played mjkeat. I am not in the army but do undertand how serious a HD situation can be.

He had it all figured out. I told him something along the lines of. You have never ever been in that situation. Nor have I. You dont know what you dont know. Why just hope for the best. When you have every oportunity to be the best you could and increase your odds 10 fold. His basic response was very similar the MP15's. No matter the situation within his own house he won. He knows the layout and has an advantage and so on and so forth.

I'd go on about assume anything is possible and plan for the worst. He'd tell me abot some kid who shot a guy in the arm and the hobo ran away. I went on about statistically in combat you fall back to what you are best at, and how he was not good at much shooting wise (its the truth, I have seen this guy shoot).

Then he would come back with he was good enough to defend himself and how he could hit what he was aiming at. I would point out, it was usually within 7 yards and with a rifle and no stress even in the slightest. Add in stress/ fear and all the goes with it, and his odds of hitting even a human size target at close range were small. Then I would point out cops, and how they often miss even at close range, under real live fire. I also pointed out a few timed game of shooting tic tac toe another buddy of mine, and I did. Granted the targets were much smaller. But even with a recreational mindset and a tiny itty bitty bit of stress of time. Even at 7 yards my buddy often found himself not even close to paper. I do have a bit more shooting experience than him (it was a very unfair advantage as he has only been shooting a handfull of times ever. But like the first friend before the tic tac toe game. No matter the situation he was on top of it. After a few friendly games it was a real eye opener for him. and how even at very close range how far he could miss. Even with lack of experience, that guy is not the worst shot ever.
Then my friend (whom the conversation started with) would come back with some random guy who won a gun fight by a wing and a prayer.

It always came back down to why not take it more seriously? Listen to guys who have been there done that, got the T shirt and wrote the book. Chances are they know much much more than him or me. He's still at the point of he will always win the gunfight. Its unrealistic and to me sad.

I swear it was this exact same conversation. Thats funny. To me SD/HD is not a game, to him COD is telling the truth. And he was always the champ in his own mind. Any HD/SD should be taken 100% as serious as any other combat. It may only last a couple minuets or less. But during that time (if it ever happens) you are at war and it should be taken as such.

And in 2012 scenarios of the type, home invasion, mass shootings, burgerlary. Due to media, job loss, and just screwed up people in general. Chances are more and more likely than ever before. Its not a game, its you, and your families lives. Why assume you are the best, when you know damn well you arnt. And when opportunites to be better are so available, why not use that resource(s).

I think we are gonna go shooting this weekend and play some tic tac toe to give him a better understanding of reality. The only good point he made is it doesnt happen to him everyday. Fair enough and true.
And for most dedicating life to being a better shooter is not realistic. However, instead of just goofing off 100% of the time at the range. And in your own mind being the best thing since beer. Why not take the information others give, use it and apply it and seek out more. It doesnt mean you have to dedicate your life to it. But at least take it as serious as you would driving your car with a child inside. Use appropriate precautions, be smart, be safe, and be somewhat skilled. You had to get the basics before taking your DL test. Same with HD/SD. Life dedication? No but something to strive to be continuously better at.

Warp
10-22-2012, 21:28
You're right. I should have told the police that I wasn't robbed, since I wasn't there. Seems they thought I had been, since most of my stuff was gone.

Semantics is a beautiful thing.

The proper definition of terms is pivotal to having a meaningful conversation.

Burglary is not robbery. They are two distinctly different things.

If your house was broken into while you were gone, and nobody else (besides the burglar(s)) was there, a burglary was committed. Not a robbery.

Given that this is a firearms forum and we are talking about self defense, it is pretty important to be able to differentiate between these.

mjkeat
10-22-2012, 21:43
Why are people still talking after post #164?

MP15T, this is exactly what I am talking about. A guy who trains guys lightyears ahead of any of us speaks and yet you continue.

NeverMore1701
10-22-2012, 21:55
I think you two need to **** and get it over with.




:tongueout:

faawrenchbndr
10-23-2012, 02:23
........
Preparedness is something that increases your odds of success and as a firearm owner who keeps a weapon in the home for defense proper training should go hand in hand. I am not talking ninja courses, but a good solid basic course. And no, I don't say that it needs to be an AR. Not in the least.



Outstanding,..........thanks for the perspective Surf

TangoFoxtrot
10-23-2012, 04:29
Why are people still talking after post #164?

MP15T, this is exactly what I am talking about. A guy who trains guys lightyears ahead of any of us speaks and yet you continue.


This has become the forum of the drama queens. :upeyes:

Matthew Courtney
10-23-2012, 06:28
This has become the forum of the drama queens. :upeyes:

In order to have a meaningful discussion, we need to define the term "drama queen". Does it mean an attention seeking fag, or a comedy averse female monarch?:rofl:

series1811
10-23-2012, 06:43
Iron sights are the basics. Why does the U.S. Naval Academy first teach midshipmen how to sail on sailboats, when the Navy doesn't use sailboats anymore?

Teaching the basics first. People who know how to operate a sailboat and a powered vessel know a lot more about how to operate a powered vessel than one who only knows how to operate a powered vessel.

mingaa
10-23-2012, 07:06
No, I don't fail to grasp your point.

I can defend myself. Better than probably 99% of the people around me in a several block radius. But then I live very close to the Pentagon, so I really can't extend that radius too far.

What I don't do is live in fear of non-existant threats, I just try to focus on the real ones. I'm in a safe area, with enough cops around that the likelyhood of anything bad happening without a swift and furious LEO response is seriously, seriously low. I face far more danger of getting in an auto-accident, or getting food poisening, than urban combat. I'm more worried about using my seat-belt and watching out for bad drivers, rather than looking for the boogeyman lurking in the parking lot that would chose me as his potential vicitim, and not the young females walking around everywhere.

Bad things can happen anywhere, no doubt about it. But there are percentages, statistics and likelyhoods that normal folks understand.

This isn't Detroit or St. Louis, and I'm not gonna open-carry my AR around. Recent stats on crime STDs etc. concerning St. Louis have been falsely reported by the media. St Louis is among the few remaining large cities in the US that have not merged the city and the county. It is no different than any other Midwest city with 2-3 million people in the GREATER municipal region. I've spent time in cities coast to coast and live in St Louis near a lovely park. The city is rich with culture, good dining and safe fun neighborhoods. Sure there are tough, nasty places BUT it is not out of proportion with other cities it SHOULD be classed with.

TangoFoxtrot
10-24-2012, 05:23
Iron sights are the basics. Why does the U.S. Naval Academy first teach midshipmen how to sail on sailboats, when the Navy doesn't use sailboats anymore?

Teaching the basics first. People who know how to operate a sailboat and a powered vessel know a lot more about how to operate a powered vessel than one who only knows how to operate a powered vessel.


I agree....I think

fnfalman
10-25-2012, 11:40
Iron sights are the basics. Why does the U.S. Naval Academy first teach midshipmen how to sail on sailboats, when the Navy doesn't use sailboats anymore?

Teaching the basics first. People who know how to operate a sailboat and a powered vessel know a lot more about how to operate a powered vessel than one who only knows how to operate a powered vessel.

Come on, old timer, just get with it!!! This is the 21st Century. We have GPS and electronics and stuff. Just push the button to turn the darn thing on and rock 'n roll. Iron sights are like stick shifts. What good are they?:whistling:

Leigh
10-26-2012, 12:54
Iron sights? Is that what this thread is about?

Matthew Courtney
10-26-2012, 18:45
The guy who knows his equipment inside and out, along with the fundamental concepts about how his stuff is supposed to work is a lot more likely to get it to function in adverse circumstances. Combat is an adverse circumstance.

t4terrific
10-26-2012, 18:52
De ja Vue.
Lol A friend of mine and I just had almost this exact same conversation at work today. Only he played mp15t, and I played mjkeat. I am not in the army but do undertand how serious a HD situation can be.

He had it all figured out. I told him something along the lines of. You have never ever been in that situation. Nor have I. You dont know what you dont know. Why just hope for the best. When you have every oportunity to be the best you could and increase your odds 10 fold. His basic response was very similar the MP15's. No matter the situation within his own house he won. He knows the layout and has an advantage and so on and so forth.

I'd go on about assume anything is possible and plan for the worst. He'd tell me abot some kid who shot a guy in the arm and the hobo ran away. I went on about statistically in combat you fall back to what you are best at, and how he was not good at much shooting wise (its the truth, I have seen this guy shoot).

Then he would come back with he was good enough to defend himself and how he could hit what he was aiming at. I would point out, it was usually within 7 yards and with a rifle and no stress even in the slightest. Add in stress/ fear and all the goes with it, and his odds of hitting even a human size target at close range were small. Then I would point out cops, and how they often miss even at close range, under real live fire. I also pointed out a few timed game of shooting tic tac toe another buddy of mine, and I did. Granted the targets were much smaller. But even with a recreational mindset and a tiny itty bitty bit of stress of time. Even at 7 yards my buddy often found himself not even close to paper. I do have a bit more shooting experience than him (it was a very unfair advantage as he has only been shooting a handfull of times ever. But like the first friend before the tic tac toe game. No matter the situation he was on top of it. After a few friendly games it was a real eye opener for him. and how even at very close range how far he could miss. Even with lack of experience, that guy is not the worst shot ever.
Then my friend (whom the conversation started with) would come back with some random guy who won a gun fight by a wing and a prayer.

It always came back down to why not take it more seriously? Listen to guys who have been there done that, got the T shirt and wrote the book. Chances are they know much much more than him or me. He's still at the point of he will always win the gunfight. Its unrealistic and to me sad.

I swear it was this exact same conversation. Thats funny. To me SD/HD is not a game, to him COD is telling the truth. And he was always the champ in his own mind. Any HD/SD should be taken 100% as serious as any other combat. It may only last a couple minuets or less. But during that time (if it ever happens) you are at war and it should be taken as such.

And in 2012 scenarios of the type, home invasion, mass shootings, burgerlary. Due to media, job loss, and just screwed up people in general. Chances are more and more likely than ever before. Its not a game, its you, and your families lives. Why assume you are the best, when you know damn well you arnt. And when opportunites to be better are so available, why not use that resource(s).

I think we are gonna go shooting this weekend and play some tic tac toe to give him a better understanding of reality. The only good point he made is it doesnt happen to him everyday. Fair enough and true.
And for most dedicating life to being a better shooter is not realistic. However, instead of just goofing off 100% of the time at the range. And in your own mind being the best thing since beer. Why not take the information others give, use it and apply it and seek out more. It doesnt mean you have to dedicate your life to it. But at least take it as serious as you would driving your car with a child inside. Use appropriate precautions, be smart, be safe, and be somewhat skilled. You had to get the basics before taking your DL test. Same with HD/SD. Life dedication? No but something to strive to be continuously better at.
What?

TangoFoxtrot
10-27-2012, 04:43
Iron sights? Is that what this thread is about?

Thats what my original intent was. :supergrin:

Leigh
10-29-2012, 14:38
Thats what my original intent was. :supergrin:

i know, I think the pizzing contest somewhat dilluted it a bit....:upeyes:

Kirishiac
10-29-2012, 15:08
RRA ar15a2 has standard sights. I have a completed mega machine lower that will have a DD or colt upper with fixed irons+aimpoint.

Big Bird
10-29-2012, 20:12
Sight alignment is one of the basic techniques of rifle marksmanship. If you haven't practiced it and haven't shot irons a good deal you don't have the skillset. Ask yourself this question...if you think its not that hard take an iron sighted gun deer hunting this year and prove it. I've killed stuff with irons out to 280 yards including deer. I've competed with irons out to 1,000. Show me a man who doesn't know his way around a set of iron sights on a rifle and I'll show you a man who cannot shoot worth a damn with ANY sight.

Its a fundamental skill set. You either have it and have proven you can use it or you don't. Its not any harder than that.

themighty9mm
10-29-2012, 20:22
What?
No? Nothing? Dont worry, read again, its all in ther. Was just tryin to relate a very similar experience I had to an argument other posters were making. Thus the reason it started with de ja vue. Diddnt pick up on that?

TangoFoxtrot
10-30-2012, 02:49
Sight alignment is one of the basic techniques of rifle marksmanship. If you haven't practiced it and haven't shot irons a good deal you don't have the skillset. Ask yourself this question...if you think its not that hard take an iron sighted gun deer hunting this year and prove it. I've killed stuff with irons out to 280 yards including deer. I've competed with irons out to 1,000. Show me a man who doesn't know his way around a set of iron sights on a rifle and I'll show you a man who cannot shoot worth a damn with ANY sight.

Its a fundamental skill set. You either have it and have proven you can use it or you don't. Its not any harder than that.

I agree!

smokin762
10-30-2012, 15:41
Sight alignment is one of the basic techniques of rifle marksmanship. If you haven't practiced it and haven't shot irons a good deal you don't have the skillset. Ask yourself this question...if you think its not that hard take an iron sighted gun deer hunting this year and prove it. I've killed stuff with irons out to 280 yards including deer. I've competed with irons out to 1,000. Show me a man who doesn't know his way around a set of iron sights on a rifle and I'll show you a man who cannot shoot worth a damn with ANY sight.

Its a fundamental skill set. You either have it and have proven you can use it or you don't. Its not any harder than that.

Most people lack the interest of learning Marksmanship with Iron Sights. They would rather just depend on a sight with an illuminated reticle. If that gets more people into the shooting sports, I could care a less.

I, myself would love to walk into the Trophy Shop at Camp Perry and see my name on one of those. Until, I feel confident enough for that, I’ll keep practicing with Iron Sights and keep doing the rifle matches at my club.

I the past, I have hunted with Iron Sights and Red Dots. I can use either. I like Red Dots on a handgun and Iron Sights on the shotgun.

Matthew Courtney
10-30-2012, 19:32
Most people lack the interest of learning Marksmanship with Iron Sights. They would rather just depend on a sight with an illuminated reticle. If that gets more people into the shooting sports, I could care a less.

I, myself would love to walk into the Trophy Shop at Camp Perry and see my name on one of those. Until, I feel confident enough for that, I’ll keep practicing with Iron Sights and keep doing the rifle matches at my club.

I the past, I have hunted with Iron Sights and Red Dots. I can use either. I like Red Dots on a handgun and Iron Sights on the shotgun.

We train a bunch of folks to shoot rifles, and some of their rifles do not even have iron sights. We still teach the fundamentals, to include a good cheek weld for 20 bench rounds to sight the rifle in, 20 prone rounds to learn that position, then 20 rounds in arm rest standing..... And those 60 first rounds need to be fired with a good cheek weld. 20 rounds each from kneeling and sitting follow, then we work on improvised field positions.... And the cheek weld is an element in every shot fired.

We want to include everyone in the enjoyment of the shooting sports and we know that hitting what they want to hit is what is going to keep them coming back.

TangoFoxtrot
10-31-2012, 03:42
We train a bunch of folks to shoot rifles, and some of their rifles do not even have iron sights. We still teach the fundamentals, to include a good cheek weld for 20 bench rounds to sight the rifle in, 20 prone rounds to learn that position, then 20 rounds in arm rest standing..... And those 60 first rounds need to be fired with a good cheek weld. 20 rounds each from kneeling and sitting follow, then we work on improvised field positions.... And the cheek weld is an element in every shot fired.

We want to include everyone in the enjoyment of the shooting sports and we know that hitting what they want to hit is what is going to keep them coming back.

Too me not having BUIS on an AR is like driving a car without a spare tire..just plain foolish IMHO.

mgs
10-31-2012, 06:10
My optics cowittness with irons! KISS!

smokin762
10-31-2012, 13:43
We train a bunch of folks to shoot rifles, and some of their rifles do not even have iron sights. We still teach the fundamentals, to include a good cheek weld for 20 bench rounds to sight the rifle in, 20 prone rounds to learn that position, then 20 rounds in arm rest standing..... And those 60 first rounds need to be fired with a good cheek weld. 20 rounds each from kneeling and sitting follow, then we work on improvised field positions.... And the cheek weld is an element in every shot fired.

We want to include everyone in the enjoyment of the shooting sports and we know that hitting what they want to hit is what is going to keep them coming back.

I can understand the position you need to take.

For the past 3 years, I have been going up to Camp Perry for the EIC Rifle or Pistol Matches. The AMU and the NRA coaches have showed me so much and have helped me out with my shooting ability, that I am hooked on Competition Shooting. More rifle than pistol. I share this information with friends and coworkers all the time. I have people that tell me the advice was helpful to them. Then I tell them about the course. But most people don’t want to take the time for it.

My first year of the rifle matches I was a little intimidated at shooting 200 yards with Iron Sights. I scored in the 260’s out of a possible 400 points. I practiced what I learned until the next match. The second year I took the advanced course. I scored in the 320’s out of a possible 400 points. Sometimes, I wish I had these guys on speed dial for pointers. :embarassed:

So yes, I do understand if they aren’t hitten, then they are splitten. And you’ll never see them again.

mjkeat
10-31-2012, 14:17
We need to keep in miind what type of shooting we are doing.

smokin762
10-31-2012, 14:28
The base line needs to start somewhere doesn’t it? Shouldn’t the fundamentals be transferable? :dunno:

Matthew Courtney
10-31-2012, 14:44
Too me not having BUIS on an AR is like driving a car without a spare tire..just plain foolish IMHO.

If I refuse to work with folks based upon foolishness, We would have no clients! By the same token, many of the things that I am habituated to doing are likely foolish some of the time.

We try our best to lead them to the tall, cool drink of water that is rifle mastery, yet we depend upon their heart, their hands, their will, and their faith to get them to raise that glass to their lips and refresh and replentish the skills of our people that are depended upon for our continued enjoyment of the Blessings of Liberty.

Matthew Courtney
10-31-2012, 15:22
The base line needs to start somewhere doesn’t it? Shouldn’t the fundamentals be transferable? :dunno:

The fundamentals are transferable, yet one cannot transfer what has not been developed. RDS allow rifle shooters to get easy hits up close without applying parts of the fundamentals. Once habituated to shooting without applying the fundamentals, it is very difficult to break bad habits. Success initially comes a bit more slowly when the well proven step by step methods are applied in conditioning a shooter to consistently applying the fundamentals, but a thourough mastery of basic marksmanship skills.

NRA Education and training loosely defines that as hitting a 6 inch target at 100 yards consistently with a centerfire rifle from all 5 basic rifle positions or a 1 1/4 inch target at 50 ft with a rimfire, any sights. BSA defines it as 1 1/8 inch groups at 50 ft from prone with metallic sights.

We routinely get Boy Scouts to their standard in 7-9 hours at camp and others to the NRA Basic Rifle Standard in the 14 hour basic rifle course.


Once we get the basic skills developed, we can taylor a program geared toward the shooters objectives, steer them toward a self directed course in the NRA/Winchester Marksmanship Qualification Program, or help them find a club with matches geared toward their interests.

smokin762
10-31-2012, 15:57
The fundamentals are transferable, yet one cannot transfer what has not been developed. RDS allow rifle shooters to get easy hits up close without applying parts of the fundamentals. Once habituated to shooting without applying the fundamentals, it is very difficult to break bad habits. Success initially comes a bit more slowly when the well proven step by step methods are applied in conditioning a shooter to consistently applying the fundamentals, but a thourough mastery of basic marksmanship skills.

NRA Education and training loosely defines that as hitting a 6 inch target at 100 yards consistently with a centerfire rifle from all 5 basic rifle positions or a 1 1/4 inch target at 50 ft with a rimfire, any sights. BSA defines it as 1 1/8 inch groups at 50 ft from prone with metallic sights.

We routinely get Boy Scouts to their standard in 7-9 hours at camp and others to the NRA Basic Rifle Standard in the 14 hour basic rifle course.


Once we get the basic skills developed, we can taylor a program geared toward the shooters objectives, steer them toward a self directed course in the NRA/Winchester Marksmanship Qualification Program, or help them find a club with matches geared toward their interests.

From the sound of it, it seems you guys do a great job with new shooters. :thumbsup:

I have seen some people on the firing line at the Club I belong too with some bad habits. Sometimes I wonder where they learned how to shoot. I have tried to give them advise, but most of them don't want to hear it. Some do though.

A couple of weeks ago, the guy next to me was shooting his AR. He was shooting all over the place. I noticed he had a different cheek weld everytime. I told him maybe he needs to try putting his nose to the charging handle a few times and see what happens. He did much better and thanked me. He was an older guy with his first AR.

Warp
10-31-2012, 17:14
From the sound of it, it seems you guys do a great job with new shooters. :thumbsup:

I have seen some people on the firing line at the Club I belong too with some bad habits. Sometimes I wonder where they learned how to shoot. I have tried to give them advise, but most of them don't want to hear it. Some do though.

A couple of weeks ago, the guy next to me was shooting his AR. He was shooting all over the place. I noticed he had a different cheek weld everytime. I told him maybe he needs to try putting his nose to the charging handle a few times and see what happens. He did much better and thanked me. He was an older guy with his first AR.

Many have no formal instruction, nor have they even read up on the matter. Just winging it because you think you know what you are doing, or learning from your buddy, may or may not be a good thing.

Something as basic and inexpensive as an Appleseed weekend would serve a lot of shooters well.

Matthew Courtney
10-31-2012, 18:42
Many have no formal instruction, nor have they even read up on the matter. Just winging it because you think you know what you are doing, or learning from your buddy, may or may not be a good thing.

Something as basic and inexpensive as an Appleseed weekend would serve a lot of shooters well.

Appleseed events are awesome and if one is near you it should not be missed! New shooters will be grounded in the fundamentals and experienced shooters can have a good time getting quality practice and enjoying the camaraderie of like minded folks. 4H has a good program in many areas and BSA offers solid training.

Warp
10-31-2012, 18:44
Appleseed events are awesome and if one is near you it should not be missed! New shooters will be grounded in the fundamentals and experienced shooters can have a good time getting quality practice and enjoying the camaraderie of like minded folks. 4H has a good program in many areas and BSA offers solid training.

I started instructing with Appleseed this year, no need to sell me on it. :cool:

TangoFoxtrot
11-01-2012, 03:13
My optics cowittness with irons! KISS!
Why would one do it any other way? :supergrin:

We need to keep in miind what type of shooting we are doing.
Does not matter your range plinker might have too by no choice become a HD or battle rifle. :whistling:

The base line needs to start somewhere doesn’t it? Shouldn’t the fundamentals be transferable? :dunno:
Should be!

mjkeat
11-01-2012, 07:18
Does not matter your range plinker might have too by no choice become a HD or battle rifle. :whistling:



So are you going to recommend the bladed up target shooting positions for defensive shooting?

smokin762
11-01-2012, 14:47
Many have no formal instruction, nor have they even read up on the matter. Just winging it because you think you know what you are doing, or learning from your buddy, may or may not be a good thing.

Something as basic and inexpensive as an Appleseed weekend would serve a lot of shooters well.

I guess I was lucky. I grew up in a family that hunts. As soon as I was old enough, my dad took me to a Hunting Safety Program so that I could get my Hunting License. I took to it like a Sparrow to grass seed. I was all over it.

When we hunted here in Ohio, we used shotguns. When we hunted in Pennsylvania, we used a bolt action or a lever action rifle. Depending on where we were. The lever action rifles and the shotguns have Aperture Sights.

I can only use Aperture Sights. I have tried Buckhorn Sights many times and I cannot hit anything with them. When I bought my last Ruger 10/22, as soon as I heard about Tech Sights, I bought a set. They are a huge help and are great for cheap practice.

TangoFoxtrot
11-02-2012, 04:01
So are you going to recommend the bladed up target shooting positions for defensive shooting?
You confuse me. What I said is that any rifle even one for plinking at the range may turn into a self defense weapon.

mjkeat
11-02-2012, 07:17
You confuse me. What I said is that any rifle even one for plinking at the range may turn into a self defense weapon.

My point is some are talking about the NRAish style bladed up to the target, elbow on the hip shooting. Worthless in most situations. That's why I said we need to keep in mind what type of shooting we are doing. You responded that it doesn't matter. It does.

I agree that any firearm can be used in a defensive role. That is why I advocate familiarization through continued qualified formal instruction followed up by lots of time on the range building muscle memory with quality equipment.

TangoFoxtrot
11-03-2012, 04:28
Quote: I agree that any firearm can be used in a defensive role. That is why I advocate familiarization through continued qualified formal instruction followed up by lots of time on the range building muscle memory with quality equipment.

Absolutely!!

Matthew Courtney
11-03-2012, 05:30
My point is some are talking about the NRAish style bladed up to the target, elbow on the hip shooting. Worthless in most situations. That's why I said we need to keep in mind what type of shooting we are doing. You responded that it doesn't matter. It does.

I agree that any firearm can be used in a defensive role. That is why I advocate familiarization through continued qualified formal instruction followed up by lots of time on the range building muscle memory with quality equipment.

There are two standing positions taught in NRA Basic Rifle Courses:

The arm rest standing position has the shooters feet shoulder width apart with their non dominant side leg very much forward and the shooter leaning slightly away from their target and most of the shooters weight on their dominant side leg. The non dominant side hand is positioned near the rear of the forestock and above the elbow "on" or just above the hip creating a nearly vertical line of support to the ground. This standing position is slower to get into than the free arm standing. It offers most shooters more stability than free arm standing, and thus a higher degree of precision. It is used by rifle match shooters in matches where score is a weighed much more heavily toward precision than time and by hunters shooting small game at any but the closest distances or large game at intermediate and longer range.

The free arm standing position has the shooters feet shoulder width apart and the shooter either squared up to the target or slightly angled with the non dominant foot closer to the target, kind of like a shotgun position. The shooter is leaning slightly toward the target with their nose over a line between their toes. The non dominant side hand is extended to a forward position on the forestock and is pulling the rifle gently or moderately rearward. The free arm standind position is faster to get into and allows the shooter to turn quite a bit at the waist to aquire targets without having to reposition their feet. It is most useful in CQB, hunting larger game at closer ranges, and competitive rifle shooting on closer targets when scoring is weighted with more emphasis on time.

Both positions have their place and no riflemans training is complete until his is well grounded in both. When one has to achieve 4-5 MOA or better precision from a standing position, the arm rest standing position is nice to have in one's bag of tricks. Even many of the 3 gun matches around the country have stages where more precision is required than many can achieve in the free arm standing position. Can some shooters shoot 3 moa and better in free arm standing? Sure, but that often takes much more training and practice than many find practical.

TangoFoxtrot
11-03-2012, 16:09
Mat you make a lot of good points ...but damn you are too long winded! You got to shorten your posts.

mjkeat
11-03-2012, 17:53
No such things as to much training or practice.

Personal preference but I just can't get behind anything firearms related that's not practical. Elbow on the hip leaning away from the target... Like I said, personal preference.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

TangoFoxtrot
11-04-2012, 05:30
No such things as to much training or practice.

Personal preference but I just can't get behind anything firearms related that's not practical. Elbow on the hip leaning away from the target... Like I said, personal preference.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Yes it is. Im old school. After my 22 yrs in the military and a combat tour later taught me a lot about what works and what doesn't.

mjkeat
11-04-2012, 08:30
I'm not going to start the "but my combat experience" debate but I'm going to go out on a limb and guess you didn't stand straight up, blade yourself to the target, position your elbow in your hip, lean back, slowly squeeze of a round, reposition, then slowly squeeze the trigger sending another round. If so I want to see pictures. That would be a sight. Wallpaper worthy.

Plus I work for a guy who retired after 24 years in the .mil and claims combat and tells everyone who'll listen yet doesn't seem to have the know how that comes w/ such experience.

WoodenPlank
11-04-2012, 08:50
No such things as to much training or practice.

Personal preference but I just can't get behind anything firearms related that's not practical. Elbow on the hip leaning away from the target... Like I said, personal preference.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

It works well for punching paper, and I had the competition scores to prove it at one time.

For combat or defensive shooting? Not so much.

Brian Brazier
11-04-2012, 20:53
I have run Eotechs, Aimpoints, rails, flashlights, vfg's, I ended up selling everything and going back to basics, Carry Handle Sight, CTR, and MOE Handguards.

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t97/bbrazierkendo/DSCN0092-1.jpg

TangoFoxtrot
11-05-2012, 04:13
I'm not going to start the "but my combat experience" debate but I'm going to go out on a limb and guess you didn't stand straight up, blade yourself to the target, position your elbow in your hip, lean back, slowly squeeze of a round, reposition, then slowly squeeze the trigger sending another round. If so I want to see pictures. That would be a sight. Wallpaper worthy.

Plus I work for a guy who retired after 24 years in the .mil and claims combat and tells everyone who'll listen yet doesn't seem to have the know how that comes w/ such experience.

Don't want to start a debate either. No you seeked cover quickly and you didn't do all the range position crap. As far as your co-worker well i guess he is lucky to still be breathing then.

TangoFoxtrot
11-05-2012, 04:14
I have run Eotechs, Aimpoints, rails, flashlights, vfg's, I ended up selling everything and going back to basics, Carry Handle Sight, CTR, and MOE Handguards.

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t97/bbrazierkendo/DSCN0092-1.jpg

Nice Brian!

mjkeat
11-05-2012, 07:07
Don't want to start a debate either. No you seeked cover quickly and you didn't do all the range position crap. As far as your co-worker well i guess he is lucky to still be breathing then.

Ok, let's back up. I posted that the elbow on the hip standing straight up bladed to the target crap wasn't practical. I thought you responded, "Yes it is." Then in a following post you said and I quote, "No you seeked cover quickly and you didn't do all the range position crap."

I'm lost on your response to my co-worker though.

fnfalman
11-05-2012, 09:13
Does not matter your range plinker might have too by no choice become a HD or battle rifle. :whistling:


No, not really. My range plinker is locked up in the safe. I have revolvers stashed all over the house for home defense plus a Saiga 12 with twenty-rounds drum.

As far as it becoming a battle rifle...that probably wouldn't happen unless there's an invasion by the Blue Helmets or Red Dawn 2.

fnfalman
11-05-2012, 09:20
The squaring yourself to the target shooting stand stems from GIs and SWAT teams who have body armor on and willing to take a hit so that they can return fire on soft targets who aren't similarly armored.

If you're in a firefight without having body armor on, I'd suggest to reduce your silhouette as much as possible...even if it means hiding behind a small tree, get on the ground or; heaven forbids, "blade" towards the target. YMMV.

fnfalman
11-05-2012, 09:24
Most people lack the interest of learning Marksmanship with Iron Sights. They would rather just depend on a sight with an illuminated reticle. If that gets more people into the shooting sports, I could care a less.


Neither do I. It ain't none of my biznatch how people shoot their guns as long as they don't waive the muzzles all over the joint and sweep me.

Most of them will never have to use their guns in extremis their entire lives. The ones who worry about that sort of thing can take training courses...or joint Uncle Sam's outfit for freebie training & practical application.

mjkeat
11-05-2012, 10:38
If you're in a firefight without having body armor on, I'd suggest to reduce your silhouette as much as possible.

If at longer distances going prone or finding makeshift support is good but at practical distances for civilian use squaring up is more than just for taking advantage of a ballistic vest. With all your training you should know this.



Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Warp
11-05-2012, 12:08
The squaring yourself to the target shooting stand stems from GIs and SWAT teams who have body armor on and willing to take a hit so that they can return fire on soft targets who aren't similarly armored.


And, well, it's easier to simultaneously move when you are facing the target

fnfalman
11-05-2012, 14:20
And, well, it's easier to simultaneously move when you are facing the target

Some people prefer to haul ass from one cover to another instead of trying to walk and shoot at the same time.

fnfalman
11-05-2012, 14:21
If at longer distances going prone or finding makeshift support is good but at practical distances for civilian use squaring up is more than just for taking advantage of a ballistic vest. With all your training you should know this.



Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

My training is about putting hits on targets while hiding behind covers and concealments instead of standing out in the open. I'm old school.

surf
11-05-2012, 14:26
From a long range, scoped bolt rifle or gas gun, we train to use a standing unsupported with a bladed stance as described previously. In reality, if we have time to blade and get in a good standing unsupported position, generally time, distance and often cover or concealment are on our side. But in reality, if I have all of that going for me, I will probably find some other type of supported position to fire from.

On the bladed squared up thing, squared up was not primarily developed around presentation of body armor but it was and advantage as opposed to the open side panel area. Just to add a few other bonuses other than what was mentioned....Better to manage recoil for speed and accuracy of follow up shots. Opens up your field of view, downrange and peripheral views providing a larger field of fire to not only the front but to both sides / left and right flank. Also square to the target if I get hit in one lung bad news. Bladed and I get hit in 2 lungs and the heart. Game over. Of course in real life dynamic things are constantly evolving so there really is no perfect situation.

Warp
11-05-2012, 14:32
Some people prefer to haul ass from one cover to another instead of trying to walk and shoot at the same time.

Some people understand that having cover available is not guaranteed.

Some people understand that in the real world you might be better off shooting back right now, while going for said cover, rather than waiting to return fire.

I am sorry to hear that you have never been trained in how to both shoot and move.

fnfalman
11-05-2012, 14:37
Some people understand that having cover available is not guaranteed.

That's why God invented the prone shooting positions.

Some people understand that in the real world you might be better off shooting back right now, while going for said cover, rather than waiting to return fire.

It's called fire and maneuver. Not walking about and make yourself a pretty target.

I am sorry to hear that you have never been trained in how to both shoot and move.

I'm sorry to hear that you've never been trained on how to close with and destroy the enemy with shock and violence. It's an infantry thang. Or at least it used to be.

Warp
11-05-2012, 14:42
That's why God invented the prone shooting positions.



It's called fire and maneuver. Not walking about and make yourself a pretty target.



I'm sorry to hear that you've never been trained on how to close with and destroy the enemy with shock and violence. It's an infantry thang. Or at least it used to be.

...because receiving training in doing one thing automatically and necessarily means no training was ever received in doing anything else. :faint:

fnfalman
11-05-2012, 15:14
...because receiving training in doing one thing automatically and necessarily means no training was ever received in doing anything else. :faint:

I don't know. You tell me. You seem to like that standing around getting shot at technique.

mjkeat
11-05-2012, 15:24
Prone works great as does the bladed, elbow on the hip when face to face.

I know I sometimes get going and momentarily swerve out of my lane but damn if this isn't itching for a 20 car pile-up.

fnfal, Shock and violence? I think you have the phrases shock and awe and violence of action mixed up.

Warp
11-05-2012, 15:29
Prone works great as does the bladed, elbow on the hip when face to face.

I know I sometimes get going and momentarily swerve out of my lane but damn if this isn't itching for a 20 car pile-up.

fnfal, Shock and violence? I think you have the phrases shock and awe and violence of action mixed up.

Get things mixed up and confused?

Nevar!

TangoFoxtrot
11-06-2012, 04:28
Shoot!!! while moveing ....to cover! The whole idea is to not let the BG have an easy target to aim at...period!

fnfalman
11-06-2012, 11:03
Prone works great as does the bladed, elbow on the hip when face to face.

I know I sometimes get going and momentarily swerve out of my lane but damn if this isn't itching for a 20 car pile-up.

fnfal, Shock and violence? I think you have the phrases shock and awe and violence of action mixed up.

Shock and awe is your generation.

And I don't know about you but face-to-face, it'd be all about fixed bayonets and buttstrokes. Of course it's hard to do any of that when equipped with a cute lil thang that's 20" long from tip to tail.

TangoFoxtrot
11-07-2012, 04:49
WOW did this thread go way off course! Okay fellas fight nice and tell me what fixed rear sight you recommend.

K. Foster
11-07-2012, 09:13
Daniel Defense

mjkeat
11-07-2012, 10:36
Shock and awe is your generation.

And I don't know about you but face-to-face, it'd be all about fixed bayonets and buttstrokes. Of course it's hard to do any of that when equipped with a cute lil thang that's 20" long from tip to tail.

Because that's super efficient. Right? Hold up, time out, let me affix this bayonet. I could simply shoot you but... well that would make to much sense.


DDs fixed rear.


Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Matthew Courtney
11-07-2012, 11:24
Shoot!!! while moveing ....to cover! The whole idea is to not let the BG have an easy target to aim at...period!


I agree 100%. The main rule of gunfighting is don't get shot! If we lose focus on that main objective and make the occurance about the other guy, he may take us with him when we send him to the other side.

Matthew Courtney
11-07-2012, 11:27
WOW did this thread go way off course! Okay fellas fight nice and tell me what fixed rear sight you recommend.


I like MBUS because once the fundamentals are mastered with irons, fundamentals should be transfered to using an optic.

LA_357SIG
11-07-2012, 12:08
I just would like to say, the members here that have adopted the newer CQB training should really lay off forcing that system down the throats of members that didn't. Remember, some people here just like to shoot.

mjkeat
11-07-2012, 12:48
I just would like to say, the members here that have adopted the newer CQB training should really lay off forcing that system down the throats of members that didn't. Remember, some people here just like to shoot.

Nobody is forcing anything on anyone. The issue is some of the people who "learned" techniques that have been replaced try to pass that information off as relevant. Some know better because they are aware of newer more relevant techniques.

There is also the issue of those trying to pass off inept techniques based on what they heard arguing w/ those sharing what they know works based on first hand experience and indepth trainging.

Things change as developments are made. This is good. Becoming stagnant, bad. In the tradition of "Shock and Violence," Adapt and Overcome.

Matthew Courtney
11-07-2012, 14:15
Nobody is forcing anything on anyone. The issue is some of the people who "learned" techniques that have been replaced try to pass that information off as relevant. Some know better because they are aware of newer more relevant techniques.

There is also the issue of those trying to pass off inept techniques based on what they heard arguing w/ those sharing what they know works based on first hand experience and indepth trainging.

Things change as developments are made. This is good. Becoming stagnant, bad. In the tradition of "Shock and Violence," Adapt and Overcome.

Longstanding fundamental marksmanship techniques have not been replaced, nor have any new basic marksmanship techniques been adopted. All of the effective rifle marksmanship techniques discussed in this thread have been in both the US Army Basic Rifle Training program and the NRA Basic Rifle Course for over 100 years.


Some rifle handling techniques have changed to keep up with changes in how rifles are loaded. CBQ techniques have been used by our military since General Washington hand picked some men to take out the Hessians in the guard houses at Trenton. Free arm standing was not developed recently for CQB. It was developed for taking quick shots at game in heavily wooded areas and adapted for CQB over 200 years ago.

surf
11-07-2012, 14:19
WOW did this thread go way off course! Okay fellas fight nice and tell me what fixed rear sight you recommend.I am still the type of guy that will shoot out to distance with irons and there are times that I will dial instead of holding off. Therefore I like a rear sight that has elevation and not just windage. I go for either a chopped carry handle or I also like the LMT fixed rear.

I just would like to say, the members here that have adopted the newer CQB training should really lay off forcing that system down the throats of members that didn't. Remember, some people here just like to shoot.I do not disagree and am more than happy with shooters who are pure recreational types. I love to shoot recreationally myself. I hate going hunting or whatever and the campfire sessions turn to shooting and tactics because that is my "profession". I just don't always feel like talking shop, so I get it.

I think the problem lies when others attempt to interject advice into topics that suggest defensive, critical use, or combat type of shooting when their advice is not always accurate or the best advice available in this day in age. Hunting or gaming, not an issue, but when lives may rely on that information it becomes an entirely different thing. Just to touch on what mjkeats mentions, this is when the "Well if it ain't broke, don't fix it" or "I been doing it this way for 40 years since I was taking shrapnel in **** tang valley" guys rear their ugly head. Since they are so vocal about their ideals it is painfully obvious who these types are, both on line and in real life.

I am 45 years old and been at this professionally for most of my adult life. I currently train and teach the most modern techniques, therefore I bridge both gaps of "old school" and "modern combat techniques" so I get where the thinking stems from and have never been out of touch, so I see the progression or lack thereof over the many years. From what I see online and in real life, when guys attempt to offer more current or up to date advice / information, the old school fellas get a bit upset and it goes downhill from there. "Young whipper snappers think ya know it all". Again some of us old timers can be more than a bit stubborn, set in our ways and often times flat out wrong. :supergrin:

surf
11-07-2012, 14:28
Longstanding fundamental marksmanship techniques have not been replaced, nor have any new basic marksmanship techniques been adopted. All of the effective rifle marksmanship techniques discussed in this thread have been in both the US Army Basic Rifle Training program and the NRA Basic Rifle Course for over 100 years.


Some rifle handling techniques have changed to keep up with changes in how rifles are loaded. CBQ techniques have been used by our military since General Washington hand picked some men to take out the Hessians in the guard houses at Trenton. Free arm standing was not developed recently for CQB. It was developed for taking quick shots at game in heavily wooded areas and adapted for CQB over 200 years ago.I will add that while basic fundamentals and basic principles and even base tactics, especially for large units remain the same. However there are many changes that occur with gear, equipment, firearms and TTP's. I have been OTJ for 23 years, and for the last 12 working and teaching at what I guess is considered an advanced level. I will say that much has changed in 23 years. Even in 12 years on the tactical side of things much has changed in all the areas I mention.

I will also add that I am a proud Endowment Member of the NRA and hold most of their NRALE and NRA civilian certs and I will be the first to say that they are a good 20 years behind the curve. Great foundation, but still waay outdated. The NRA as THE primary trainer of LE instructors, it is painfully obvious why most LE is waaay behind the curve. Hell my last NRALE patrol rifle instructor course 2 years ago to update all my certs was the same damn material from 15 years ago. I have all of my manuals and the only thing to change has been the 3 ring binder colors and now they go with a bound spine manual.

ETA - I think the NRA and their instructor certs are a good thing, they are a great foundation for marksmanship and base shooting / manipulations, but by far they are some of the most basic certifications for modern firearms training.

mjkeat
11-07-2012, 14:38
Longstanding fundamental marksmanship techniques have not been replaced, nor have any new basic marksmanship techniques been adopted. All of the effective rifle marksmanship techniques discussed in this thread have been in both the US Army Basic Rifle Training program and the NRA Basic Rifle Course for over 100 years.


Some rifle handling techniques have changed to keep up with changes in how rifles are loaded. CBQ techniques have been used by our military since General Washington hand picked some men to take out the Hessians in the guard houses at Trenton. Free arm standing was not developed recently for CQB. It was developed for taking quick shots at game in heavily wooded areas and adapted for CQB over 200 years ago.

Fundamentals are great. We always fall back on them no matter what we do. They're the foundation from which we build. What I'm talking about is different.

------------

I think what we have here is exactly what SURF is talking about. At 34 I feel I am in a great position. Young enough to sponge up good material yet old enough to sift through the crap.

Matthew Courtney
11-07-2012, 15:08
I will add that while basic fundamentals and basic principles and even base tactics, especially for large units remain the same. However there are many changes that occur with gear, equipment, firearms and TTP's. I have been OTJ for 23 years, and for the last 12 working and teaching at what I guess is considered an advanced level. I will say that much has changed in 23 years. Even in 12 years on the tactical side of things much has changed in all the areas I mention.

I will also add that I am a proud Endowment Member of the NRA and hold most of their NRALE and NRA civilian certs and I will be the first to say that they are a good 20 years behind the curve. Great foundation, but still waay outdated. The NRA as THE primary trainer of LE instructors, it is painfully obvious why most LE is waaay behind the curve. Hell my last NRALE patrol rifle instructor course 2 years ago to update all my certs was the same damn material from 15 years ago. I have all of my manuals and the only thing to change has been the 3 ring binder colors and now they go with a bound spine manual.

ETA - I think the NRA and their instructor certs are a good thing, they are a great foundation for marksmanship and base shooting / manipulations, but by far they are some of the most basic certifications for modern firearms training.

I have never met a private citizen who was not a veteran who was sufficiently grounded in the basics to take an advanced course.

Matthew Courtney
11-07-2012, 15:20
Fundamentals are great. We always fall back on them no matter what we do. They're the foundation from which we build. What I'm talking about is different.

------------

I think what we have here is exactly what SURF is talking about. At 34 I feel I am in a great position. Young enough to sponge up good material yet old enough to sift through the crap.

The context of this discussion in "Iron Sights", not advanced rifle fighting techniques. My contention is that basic rifle marksmanship is best learned by most using iron sights. If you were referencing advanced rifle fighting techniques, beyond the scope of what Army Basic, most law enforcement post courses, and what the FBI Rifle Course teach, then you have entered a realm where shooters would need to have mastered basic riflery prior to taking the training, thus obviating the need for irons.

Armor, Flir, and other technologies have changed tactics significantly and new rifle techniques have been developed to match the tactics. Only a very small percentage of the population is qualified to be admitted to advanced rifles courses and without a doubt, those folks are ready to move past iron sights.

Brian Brazier
11-07-2012, 16:13
Nice Brian!

Thank you, like I said I tried everything under the sun, guess in the end I am a pureist, I like my rifle with iron sights, handguns with metal frames w/o rails, GI 1911's, and I perfer to have my guns Blued.

fnfalman
11-07-2012, 16:16
Because that's super efficient. Right? Hold up, time out, let me affix this bayonet. I could simply shoot you but... well that would make to much sense.


DDs fixed rear.


Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

You fix bayonet before you engage the enemy, silly.

Besides, what fun is shooting when you can run them through with pig stickers? Cold steel is what drives fear into men's hearts.

fnfalman
11-07-2012, 16:19
Some rifle handling techniques have changed to keep up with changes in how rifles are loaded. CBQ techniques have been used by our military since General Washington hand picked some men to take out the Hessians in the guard houses at Trenton. Free arm standing was not developed recently for CQB. It was developed for taking quick shots at game in heavily wooded areas and adapted for CQB over 200 years ago.

You don't say? You mean it wasn't invented by the commandos with their scopes and lasers?

mjkeat
11-07-2012, 17:51
You fix bayonet before you engage the enemy, silly.

Besides, what fun is shooting when you can run them through with pig stickers? Cold steel is what drives fear into men's hearts.

Just like the racking of a pump shotgun. Right?

Edit:

The context of this discussion in "Iron Sights", not advanced rifle fighting techniques.

Though you are correct I was commenting on a post that made reference to tactics.

Matthew Courtney
11-07-2012, 20:05
You don't say? You mean it wasn't invented by the commandos with their scopes and lasers?

Initially, CBQ techniques were developed to cook chickens over open flames. Frontiersmen adapted the technique to cooking geese and ducks, then modified it further for rabbits and deer. We now use the term BBQ to denote cooking over fire with minimal use of utensils generally. Exact interpretations are regional. My NRA License stands for National Restaurant Association.:tongueout: