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ADK_40GLKr
10-07-2012, 16:02
Got a .5 cc measure with my .40 dies, but the spec sheet calls for .6 cc's.

Looking at the size of the .5 measure, I decided on a .22 case, and ground it down with my Dremel until I could dump powder into it 2 and a half times and figured I'd call that a .2 cc. Then ground another down to where it took 5 dumps to fill the original and called it .1.

Pretty rustic, but it beats separating the powder on a piece of ruled paper with a razor blade. (Not that I've ever done that before with any other substance - but I've seen it on TV.:wow:)

SDGlock23
10-07-2012, 16:42
I've never used "cc"s. Do you have scale so you can measure in grains?

F106 Fan
10-07-2012, 16:43
You do have a valid scale, right?

I can see using a dipper to get 90% of the load into the scale pan and then using a trickler to finish the measurement.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/317787/rcbs-powder-trickler

I can't even imagine a process where the powder was divided with a razor blade.

We recently had a long discussion re: dippers and scales. The considered opinion is that dippers won't throw a precise charge.

For many powders, the difference between a minimum charge and a maximum charge is just 0.5 gr.

Richard

TKM
10-07-2012, 16:48
Jury rigged fingers.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2007-07/24/content_6421182.htm

fredj338
10-07-2012, 17:10
That's fine, before Lee made dippers, guys made them form shell cases cut donw, but consider ONLY Lee shows loads in cc, you better be checking w/ a scale, foolish loading any other way w/ the exception of low end or starting loads.

HAMMERHEAD
10-07-2012, 17:51
Wouldn't one larger case made into a dipper be more consistent than dipping 5 times with a tiny one?
You really need a scale. Reloading a pistol ammo with un-calibrated equipment is a recipe for disaster.

shotgunred
10-07-2012, 19:45
I predict a KB thread in your future if this is the way you chose to reload.

PhantomF4E
10-07-2012, 19:59
Please take the advice that is going to come your way . Even if it is tough love. Yes dippers can be made and used to create cartriges that will push a bullet out of a barrel but please save them for apocalypse reloading or something . Scales really aren't that expensive and they are critical for consistent reloads. At least get a consistent reading with the particular dipper you are using with the specific powder you are using and then keep the charge well below maximum . Use a powder like Unique that is more forgiving. Also get a case where a single measure is all that is needed. Every dip you have to make is capable of introducing error .
I live in South Florida , the only powder I have ever heard of being seperated on paper with a razor blade would not do well over a primer !!!

ADK_40GLKr
10-07-2012, 20:58
Wouldn't one larger case made into a dipper be more consistent than dipping 5 times with a tiny one?
You really need a scale. Reloading a pistol ammo with un-calibrated equipment is a recipe for disaster.

Don't have to dip anything 5 times.

Yellow one is 0.5; tiny is 0.1. I need 0.6. Anything bigger would be way more than prescribed.

Sounds like I really need a scale!

Hoser
10-07-2012, 21:14
Sounds like I really need a scale!

Without a doubt. And a set of check weights.

SARDG
10-07-2012, 21:43
...Sounds like I really need a scale!

Without a doubt...
...and not a cheap one.

There are many relatively recent threads here about scale recommendations & weighing, and checking & calibrating your scale.

tkglazie
10-08-2012, 07:15
The Gemini 20 measures to .02grains all day and is available for $22 on Amazon. You will need a larger pan to place on the one that comes with it. Excellent product. Comes with a pair of check weights

sdelam
10-08-2012, 07:29
The Lee scale is inexpensive and works but is not ideal. I like the Dillon scale myself its faster and easier to use but it is a bit more money.

ADK_40GLKr
10-08-2012, 07:41
I live in South Florida , the only powder I have ever heard of being seperated on paper with a razor blade would not do well over a primer !!!

:faint:

OK, point taken. I'm learning a lot, pretty fast!

I just asked a different way in the other thread, but if the chart says .5 cc in the "Lee Dipper" column for 170 gr XTP bullets, is it OK for 165 gr. PLATED bullets?

unclebob
10-08-2012, 08:22
The Gemini 20 measures to .02grains all day and is available for $22 on Amazon. You will need a larger pan to place on the one that comes with it. Excellent product. Comes with a pair of check weights

Like what Fred has said many of times there is no digital scale that is any good under $100.00. That scale and many other scales come with calibration weights. Not check weights. Of all the reloading equipment you buy. The reloading scale is not a product that you skimp on.

Hoser
10-08-2012, 09:05
if the chart says .5 cc in the "Lee Dipper" column for 170 gr XTP bullets, is it OK for 165 gr. PLATED bullets?

Well if I knew how much 0.5 cc of your powder weighed I could tell you...

Scale. Get one.

DoctaGlockta
10-08-2012, 09:12
I do know that a 9mm case holds about 6 grains of Unique. I have a set of Lee dippers that I probably can't find.

Get a scale. I had a Lee for some time and then out of reloader shame bought a Dillion (made by Ohus).

Good luck.

fredj338
10-08-2012, 09:27
Don't have to dip anything 5 times.

Yellow one is 0.5; tiny is 0.1. I need 0.6. Anything bigger would be way more than prescribed.

Sounds like I really need a scale!
Ok, so how do you know it's 0.1cc?:dunno:

fredj338
10-08-2012, 09:29
The Gemini 20 measures to .02grains all day and is available for $22 on Amazon. You will need a larger pan to place on the one that comes with it. Excellent product. Comes with a pair of check weights

No it does NOT. No scale under several $500 measures 0.02gr, I am sure you meant 0.2gr, big, big diff.:shocked: A scale that measure 0.2gr is NOT accurate enough for serious reloading. It's about as useful as dippers. Again, until someone shows me a scale that reapeatedly measures accurate 1/10gr charges w/o shifting zero over months of reloading, for under $100 retail, I am sticking to my original statemtent. You are going to have to spend $100 retail or more for a quality, repeatable dig scale.

SARDG
10-08-2012, 09:46
The Gemini 20 measures to .02grains all day and is available for $22 on Amazon. You will need a larger pan to place on the one that comes with it. Excellent product. Comes with a pair of check weights

No it does NOT. No scale under several $500 measures 0.02gr, I am sure you meant 0.2gr, big, big diff.:shocked: A scale that measure 0.2gr is NOT accurate enough for serious reloading. It's about as useful as dippers...
ADK_ This is a perfect example of choosing wisely who you take advise from on this forum. I know the wise posters, but won't name them for fear of insulting others. Even those wise folks can be guilty of occasional typos however.

Couple the poor advise of using a $22 digital scale AND a typo (or simply a misunderstanding of one's own gear), and you can see where you can simply waste a lot of monies OR have a catastrophic error, depending on how the typo/error/gear misunderstanding works out for you.

The same goes for Internet reload recipes. When you find them, make informed decisions based on cross-checking with published data.

fredj338
10-08-2012, 12:56
ADK_ This is a perfect example of choosing wisely who you take advise from on this forum. I know the wise posters, but won't name them for fear of insulting others. Even those wise folks can be guilty of occasional typos however.

Couple the poor advise of using a $22 digital scale AND a typo (or simply a misunderstanding of one's own gear), and you can see where you can simply waste a lot of monies OR have a catastrophic error, depending on how the typo/error/gear misunderstanding works out for you.

The same goes for Internet reload recipes. When you find them, make informed decisions based on cross-checking with published data.
You are a fast learner SARDG.

SARDG
10-08-2012, 14:53
You are a fast learner SARDG.
Someone should have convinced my teachers and professors. :rofl:

shotgunred
10-08-2012, 16:22
:faint:

OK, point taken. I'm learning a lot, pretty fast!

I just asked a different way in the other thread, but if the chart says .5 cc in the "Lee Dipper" column for 170 gr XTP bullets, is it OK for 165 gr. PLATED bullets?

what powder? If you are using one someone has they could weigh it. But the way they load the dipper would be different from you so would weigh diffrent. I sure hope you are only trying low end loads!

Buy a scale!

dwhite53
10-08-2012, 17:08
Gotta get a scale. Should have this already.

I have a number of dippers for pet loads made from trimmed 9mm cases.

Always calibrated. Only re-calibrate with new lot of powder.

Never go out of adjustment.

First charge just as accurate as the last charge.

EASILY HOLD +/- 0.1 grain all day long. Even if using a Harrell measure you better use a scale on each charge if you need better repeatability.

All the Best,
D. White

ADK_40GLKr
10-08-2012, 19:46
I sure hope you are only trying low end loads!

Yeah, minimum starting load on the .45; and on the .40, which called for .6 CC.

BUT after all this, I've decided to give it a rest for a while so I don't do anything impetuous, shop around a bit, and get the rest of the stuff I need, like a scale, reloading manual, pullet buller, etc.

ADK_40GLKr
10-08-2012, 19:55
Ok, so how do you know it's 0.1cc?:dunno:

THAT I dipped 5 times to fill the .5 cc dipper, as I was grinding it down. Repeated the process several times until I was convinced it was 1/5 the volume of the .5cc plastic one that came with my dies.

My bad, I thought you were talking about measuring out 5 dips to load a case.

tkglazie
10-08-2012, 20:28
No it does NOT. No scale under several $500 measures 0.02gr, I am sure you meant 0.2gr, big, big diff.:shocked: A scale that measure 0.2gr is NOT accurate enough for serious reloading. It's about as useful as dippers. Again, until someone shows me a scale that reapeatedly measures accurate 1/10gr charges w/o shifting zero over months of reloading, for under $100 retail, I am sticking to my original statemtent. You are going to have to spend $100 retail or more for a quality, repeatable dig scale.

No, it DOES. Buy one and get back to me.

tkglazie
10-08-2012, 20:35
Like what Fred has said many of times there is no digital scale that is any good under $100.00. That scale and many other scales come with calibration weights. Not check weights. Of all the reloading equipment you buy. The reloading scale is not a product that you skimp on.

Luckily my targets dont read this forum. Many a ragged hole will attest to the fact that a Gemini 20 measures to 0.02 grains (thats Zero Point Zero Two Grains) day in and day out. Spend your money any way you like, but if the goal is to measure charges accurately and consistently, spend $22 on a Gemini 20 and compare it to whatever you own before you cast judgment. The site has a 30 day return policy so you have nothing to lose other than preconceptions.

F106 Fan
10-08-2012, 20:39
No, it DOES. Buy one and get back to me.

Yes, the scale reads to 0.02 GRAINS. It also reads to 0.001 grams which is 0.015... gr.

http://www.americanweigh.com/pdf/manuals/gemini-20_manual.pdf

Nevertheless, I wouldn't use it to measure charges.

http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=gemini+20+scale&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=7288506367&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=736378466690785564&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&ref=pd_sl_9gor0gy71s_e

I want something with a track record in reloading.

Richard

tkglazie
10-08-2012, 20:45
ADK_ This is a perfect example of choosing wisely who you take advise from on this forum. I know the wise posters, but won't name them for fear of insulting others. Even those wise folks can be guilty of occasional typos however.

Couple the poor advise of using a $22 digital scale AND a typo (or simply a misunderstanding of one's own gear), and you can see where you can simply waste a lot of monies OR have a catastrophic error, depending on how the typo/error/gear misunderstanding works out for you.

The same goes for Internet reload recipes. When you find them, make informed decisions based on cross-checking with published data.

Perhaps you should spend a few minutes doing your own research before you make such statements. Fair enough? Not to mention, a Lee Safety Scale is readily available for $22 and is as accurate as any scale on the market.

An apology would be in order, actually, dont you think?

http://www.americanweigh.com/pdf/manuals/gemini-20_manual.pdf

page 5

tkglazie
10-08-2012, 20:54
Yes, the scale reads to 0.02 GRAINS. It also reads to 0.001 grams which is 0.015... gr.

http://www.americanweigh.com/pdf/manuals/gemini-20_manual.pdf

Nevertheless, I wouldn't use it to measure charges.

http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=gemini+20+scale&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=7288506367&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=736378466690785564&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&ref=pd_sl_9gor0gy71s_e

I want something with a track record in reloading.

Richard

Use what you like, but if the goal is to put an accurate charge into a case, this scale does it and has for me for almost a year now with one battery change. I compare it regularly to my beam scale and it never disappoints.

I do understand that this is difficult to believe but the results dont lie. For $22, refundable, it would be really easy for anyone to see for themselves.

fredj338
10-08-2012, 21:07
No, it DOES. Buy one and get back to me.

SO you are trying to tell me it measures 2/100 of a grain? Maybe someday someone will make a reliable cheap dig scale, not today though.:dunno: BTW, what are you using to verify said wonder scale??? I am not buying the advert or you response, no disrespect, but until you have had that little gem on & off 100s of times & verified it against cert check wts, you have no idea.

ROGER4314
10-08-2012, 21:11
That's the biggest problem we have in measuring our powder. We relate VOLUME to WEIGHT. If you bump around on the bench, the powder packs down so it is more dense. Then the volume is heavier.

I started out using dippers in the 1960's when an Ohaus 5-10 or 10-10 was beyond my dreams cost wise. I got pretty consistent with dippers but I had no other choice. I had a small quantity of powder, ran the dipper through it then swept off the top with a piece of cardboard. That gave the charge no bumping or packing down.

Now, there are so many options available for digital scales, it's no longer optional to use one. If you like the dippers, heck, keep using them. Just verify your charge weight.

I personally recommend the Lyman 55 powder measure. It has three separate volume chambers so adjustment is very precise. It even has a little hammer installed in the front of the housing to tap a consistent amount for every charge. I have 9 powder measures and the Lyman 55 is the best of all of them.

With pistol powders, the burn rate is so fast that it's easy to get into KB territory. Yes......you must have a scale. Please....

Flash

Taterhead
10-08-2012, 21:15
Luckily my targets dont read this forum. Many a ragged hole will attest to the fact that a Gemini 20 measures to 0.02 grains (thats Zero Point Zero Two Grains) day in and day out. Spend your money any way you like, but if the goal is to measure charges accurately and consistently, spend $22 on a Gemini 20 and compare it to whatever you own before you cast judgment. The site has a 30 day return policy so you have nothing to lose other than preconceptions.

A ragged hole proves nothing of the level of precision that you claim that this scale is capable of. Some powders will do the ragged hole thing with +/- 2 tenths of grains as dispensed through a powder throw.

I would believe that it gives weight readouts in 2/100 grain increments, but I seriously doubt that it is repeatably accurate to that level of precision. Have you ever tested the scale with check weights? I am not talking about calibration weights.

The only way to know is to verify the readings with check weights across a variety of weight ranges. Do you have check weights in hundredths of grain increments? Perhaps some photos with said check weights to prove your point?

tkglazie
10-08-2012, 21:15
SO you are trying to tell me it measures 2/100 of a grain? BS. If it says that, it's BS. If you believe that, maybe consider something other than reloading.:dunno:

Wow. No, it really isnt BS. I sent you the documentation and have described first-hand real world experiences, yet I am the one who needs to reconsider reloading?

Sorry to burst your bubble, but there are actually some things in this world that are true even if you dont believe them.

dkf
10-08-2012, 21:18
Yes, the scale reads to 0.02 GRAINS. It also reads to 0.001 grams which is 0.015... gr.

http://www.americanweigh.com/pdf/manuals/gemini-20_manual.pdf

Nevertheless, I wouldn't use it to measure charges.

http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=gemini+20+scale&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=7288506367&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=736378466690785564&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&ref=pd_sl_9gor0gy71s_e

I want something with a track record in reloading.

Richard

So it will display grains along with grams?

tkglazie
10-08-2012, 21:21
A ragged hole proves nothing of the level of precision that you claim that this scale is capable of. Some powders will do the ragged hole thing with +/- 2 tenths of grains as dispensed through a powder throw.

I would believe that it gives weight readouts in 2/100 grain increments, but I seriously doubt that it is repeatably accurate to that level of precision. Have you ever tested the scale with check weights? I am not talking about calibration weights.

The only way to know is to verify the readings with check weights across a variety of weight ranges. Do you have check weights in hundredths of grain increments? Perhaps some photos with said check weights to prove your point?

Lets back up here. A few posts ago I was being questioned (and still have not seen a retraction) about the fact that this scale even MEASURES what I said it measures, and now I am the one who needs to produce photo proof what is already been documented? Even if the scale does close to what it claims it is better than most of the "name brand" scales that start at .1 grain accuracy.

I have yet to weigh a charge or weight on this scale and have it disagree with my Lee Safety Scale (which is good for 1/20th grain, does anyone care to dispute that?)

When I load for my .32 Special (only 20 at a time), I use a dipper to get near 34 grains of H4895 and then use tweezers to drop individual grains until I get to 34.02 (for no other reason than thats the charge I used for the best group with that gun and its as easy to hit one number as another). The scale registers each grain or two as it is dropped.

Jeez, the thing costs just over $20. We all spend more than that on components in a week. Try it out, send it back if you dont like it. But until someone comes to ME with proof that this thing DOESNT do what it says, I would appreciate the benefit of the doubt. What kind of forum do we have here anyway? Check my history, have I NOT been a positive, supportive member here?

tkglazie
10-08-2012, 21:22
So it will display grains along with grams?

yes, it has a mode button and toggles between several measurements.

for calibration, it uses the 2-weight method using the 2 provided 10gram weights.

ROGER4314
10-08-2012, 21:26
I went through the docs on the Gemini scale. Excellent scales read to +- .1 grain. Not so hot scales read to +- .2 grain. I strongly suspect a typo error in the specs.

I have a set of check weight standards and I'd sure verify that before I accepted the data in those docs.

Flash

tkglazie
10-08-2012, 21:29
I went through the docs on the Gemini scale. Excellent scales read to +- .1 grain. Not so hot scales read to +- .2 grain. I strongly suspect a typo error in the specs.

I have a set of check weight standards and I'd sure verify that before I accepted the data in those docs.

Flash

A typo error in the specs, AND on the unit?

remember- there ARE some concessions when using this unit- primarily its tiny size, the fact that it is battery powered and its very small pan. You will want to use a larger pan on top of the existing one as I mentioned. If you weigh each charge and load a lot, this isnt the scale for you. But for low volume use, or for spot checking volume charges I cant imagine a better value.

dkf
10-08-2012, 21:31
yes, it has a mode button and toggles between several measurements.

for calibration, it uses the 2-weight method using the 2 provided 10gram weights.

I may try one to try since they are inexpensive. I already have a good Dillon Eliminator to test it against.

I do understand what some are saying. Just because the display reads down to .02 grain does not mean it is accurate to .02 grain. Kind of like an electronic caliper that displays down to .0005". It may have .0005" increments but nobody but a fool will depend on it below +-.002".

ROGER4314
10-08-2012, 21:35
Why do you get so wound up about it? You reported about what the docs say exactly right. No one is doubting you. I've been using analog and digital scales for a long time and I simply don't buy their printed information as correct.

Flash

tkglazie
10-08-2012, 21:36
I may try one to try since they are inexpensive. I already have a good Dillon Eliminator so I have a very good scale already to test it with.

if nothing else its a handy backup or double/trlple check scale to have on hand. if you have any problems with yours please do share, I would be as interested as anyone since I do use mine quite regularly.

tkglazie
10-08-2012, 21:40
Why do you get so wound up about it? You reported about what the docs say exactly right. No one is doubting you. I've been using analog and digital scales for a long time and I simply don't buy their printed information as correct.

Flash

Sorry, I am just pretty offended by SARDG's post and the way some have just assumed I have no idea what I am talking about. I try hard to be a positive, helpful presence on these boards. Reloading forums got me off to a good start in my reloading life and I am grateful for that and would like to return the favor.

For the record, I have a BS in Mech Engineering and worked on some of the cooler toys in our national arsenal for one of the big defense contractors back in the day, I think I can run a little old scale;)

F106 Fan
10-08-2012, 21:56
SO you are trying to tell me it measures 2/100 of a grain?

From the manual, yes it does. Since it reads to 0.001 GRAM, reading to 0.02 GRAINS is not a problem. These are not typos, the numbers are straight out of the user manual.

It would be interesting to see how it works against check weights.

Richard

ROGER4314
10-08-2012, 22:00
They claim +- .02 grain accuracy and the norm is +- .1 grain (good) or +- .2 (fair). It could be a coincidence but it seems likely that there was an error.

If I get a chance, I'll order the Gemini and try it. For the tiny cost, it would be worth buying if it's a reliable unit. I have several digital scales that didn't work well for powder charges but they still work great for weighing bullets or other components.

For the record, I have a Masters in technology but once you get old and retire, folks think a lifetime of training and experience simply evaporates. I don't care if folks believe me or not.

Flash

SARDG
10-08-2012, 23:15
Wow, I went away for a couple of hours and 25+ posts showed up before me.

I am generally a fact-checker from way back, but it is so grossly uncommon for anything costing $22 to have an actual accuracy of .02gr that no checking was deemed necessary.

However, the specs don't claim an accuracy of .02gr, they claim a resolution of .02gr. tkglazie, your original post claimed that the scale "measures to .02grains". Measures to (?), accuracy, resolution, and precision are all different animals. Take a look at this article, especially the Real-world Example at the bottom of the page that cuts to the chase:
http://www.tutelman.com/golf/measure/precision.php

The other parts of this page demonstrate how manufacturers hedge on precision and accuracy, by claiming good scores for resolution. Built in weighing algorithms may help perpetuate the illusion to the scale's end user. Repeatability and reliability are also mentioned regarding actual precision.

I too would like to prove-up actual accuracy and real precision, and therefore repeatability and reliability in such an economical package - but fear it won't measure up (no actual pun intended).

Of course, normal reloader's check-weights don't go down to .02gr, mine starting at .5gr.; so how we check the Gemini is unknown. There is another related page "Testing a Digital Scale" which seems to give correct procedures for accurate testing if you have the time and patience:
http://www.tutelman.com/golf/measure/digitalScaleTest.php

If I am found to be wrong, I most definitely would owe you an apology, but I am not yet convinced. My statement was actually made to convince ADK to choose wisely regarding which random posters to believe and I fear I was somewhat insensitive in the way I did that and apologize now for the insensitivity of my 'sell'.

Kitty N.

fredj338
10-09-2012, 01:44
Well, for $25, I'll buy one & use it in my reloading class, the ammo is never shot, so I won't care. It certainly can't be worse than the $25 Hornady that never stays zeroed. I would expect a guy w/ a BS in engineering would know better. but hey, college isn't what it used to be. Check wts BTW, start @ 10grain & go down, not up. Check w/ certified check wts & get back to me. Weigh the same 10gr wt 10 x, it should never vary.

SARDG
10-09-2012, 02:21
...Check w/ certified check wts & get back to me. Weigh the same 10gr wt 10 x, it should never vary.
It may NOT vary during that test. The website article I referenced above claims that circuits built into cheaper scales can mask inconsistent measurements. If a 10gr weight is placed on the scale and actually measures 10gr, the circuits will take subsequent readings within a 'range' (as an example, 9.8-10.2gr) and display them as 10gr. The author suggests "cleansing the palette" of the scale between test weights by weighing a much heavier or lighter weight in between test weights.

These algorithms are allegedly how low-cost scales can use resolution to mask inaccuracy and imprecision.

ADK_40GLKr
10-09-2012, 06:14
I copied this from a conversion site:
0.001g = 0.0154323580gr

I copied this description of the Gemini 20 from an on line store:

"Get quality and accuracy with the Gemini-20 digital gram scale. The Gemini-20 is accurate to 0.001 grams.

So the scale is accurate to (rounding off) 0.02 grains

SJ 40
10-09-2012, 06:40
I came across this some time ago and found it informative on digital scales.
http://www.mnguntalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=34414
SJ 40

SARDG
10-09-2012, 07:04
I copied this from a conversion site:
0.001g = 0.0154323580gr

I copied this description of the Gemini 20 from an on line store:

"Get quality and accuracy with the Gemini-20 digital gram scale. The Gemini-20 is accurate to 0.001 grams.

So the scale is accurate to (rounding off) 0.02 grains
What that specific online store has done is taken Gemini's "resolution" claim from the Gemini manual, and directly equated that to "accuracy", which we've determined are not the same.

Manual (from Richard's link (Page 5):
http://www.americanweigh.com/pdf/man...-20_manual.pdf

SARDG
10-09-2012, 07:51
I came across this some time ago and found it informative on digital scales.
http://www.mnguntalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=34414
SJ 40
Well, that guy sure paints a grim picture. I'm certain that there is some correlation between this and the link(s) I posted - just not sure I'm smart enough to figure out what it is.

The scale addressed in this post is the Dillon and this same kind of conversion error isn't mentioned in the [my] former articles.

Colorado4Wheel
10-09-2012, 08:52
I came across this some time ago and found it informative on digital scales.
http://www.mnguntalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=34414
SJ 40


He made a very basic mistake in that post. The D-Terminator is measuring to .003 gram NOT .01 grams as he seems to think. Look at the response from CED below.

“The current D-Terminator electronic scale is measuring in gram and then convert the reading to grain. The error due to unit conversation will be within +-0.05 grain (equal to 0.003 gram)

No matter how, the error due to unit conversion will always be there. It is just a matter of which unit measure is more important for the application. “

Respectfully, Charles Hardy - CED

You need to be real careful reading this internet crap.

F106 Fan
10-09-2012, 08:57
Well, that guy sure paints a grim picture. I'm certain that there is some correlation between this and the link(s) I posted - just not sure I'm smart enough to figure out what it is.

The scale addressed in this post is the Dillon and this same kind of conversion error isn't mentioned in the [my] former articles.


That is a very interesting article! It is WRONG, but it is interesting.

In the section "First response from me on Oct. 2, 2010:", there is a table that indicates that certain readings, in grains, aren't possible due to mathematical oddities related to rounding. For example, 4.7 grains should never show up on the scale. If the table is correct...

So, how is it that I can walk out to the garage, load up a trickler and dispense a 4.7 gr charge? In fact, I watched for missing increments on the way up to 4.7 and, except for the occasions where I was overexuberant in twisting the knob, every single reading appears.

There is certainly some technical basis for some of the author's ideas but the problem with 'facts' is that, sometimes, 'experiments' disprove them.

I think that when a reloader moves from a quality beam scale to a digital scale, they have accepted the 0.05 gr error. I know that my Chargemaster and my D'Terminator don't agree to 0.1 gr. If I set the Chargemaster to dispense 42.2 gr, I will, more often than not, get 42.1 gr on the D'Terminator. I figure there are two round off errors going on and I'm willing to accept the variance.

I use check weights in the range of interest. For a 42.2 gr charge, I use a 50.0 gr check weight. Both scales read EXACTLY 50.0 gr. That's great! But the engineer inside me also knows that I have no idea whether or not the check weight is anywhere near 50.0 gr. All I know is that three things tend to agree. They could all be wrong. But they would be wrong together!

Another thing I learned: Your measuring device needs to resolve 10 times better than the thing you want to measure. If you want to measure 0.1 gr, you need to be able to resolve 0.01 gr, accurately. Which means that none of our common reloading measurements are worth a darn - engineering wise.

But, darn, they seem to work anyway... Experiments...

Richard

Colorado4Wheel
10-09-2012, 09:00
I think if I was CED I I would sue him and make him get rid of that slander.

Colorado4Wheel
10-09-2012, 09:03
In the section "First response from me on Oct. 2, 2010:", there is a table that indicates that certain readings, in grains, aren't possible due to mathematical oddities related to rounding. For example, 4.7 grains should never show up on the scale. If the table is correct...

So, how is it that I can walk out to the garage, load up a trickler and dispense a 4.7 gr charge? In fact, I watched for missing increments on the way up to 4.7 and, except for the occasions where I was overexuberant in twisting the knob, every single reading appears.

Richard

Because the article is wrong. The Scale measure to .003 grams which means it's accurate to .05 Grains (actually a little better) and then the scale rounds to .1 grains. So it has more resolution then it needs for it's given task. Not less as he falsely is asserting.

Colorado4Wheel
10-09-2012, 09:07
Don't be surprised if you see a correction in that website in the near future.

F106 Fan
10-09-2012, 09:09
Because the article is wrong. The Scale measure to .003 grams which means it's accurate to .05 Grains (actually a little better) and then the scale rounds to .1 grains. So it has more resolution then it needs for it's given task. Not less as he falsely is asserting.

Exactly! As you pointed out, Internet stuff isn't always correct.

Richard

fredj338
10-09-2012, 09:18
I copied this from a conversion site:
0.001g = 0.0154323580gr

I copied this description of the Gemini 20 from an on line store:

"Get quality and accuracy with the Gemini-20 digital gram scale. The Gemini-20 is accurate to 0.001 grams.

So the scale is accurate to (rounding off) 0.02 grains

Yeah, so it says. Let's see, they are trying to sell you something and?????????

F106 Fan
10-09-2012, 09:30
Because the article is wrong. The Scale measure to .003 grams which means it's accurate to .05 Grains (actually a little better) and then the scale rounds to .1 grains. So it has more resolution then it needs for it's given task. Not less as he falsely is asserting.

You would think that the author would at least try an experiment before writing something like that. I would be embarrassed to have my name on something that is so obviously, and provably, wrong.

Richard

F106 Fan
10-09-2012, 09:37
Yeah, so it says. Let's see, they are trying to sell you something and?????????

Even if the scale does all it says, how could we prove it? Our check weights are accurate to, perhaps, 0.05 gr. I don't know that they are any better than that and there is nothing on the RCBS web site that gives even a hint about accuracy.

The only thing to do is test multiple weights over many readings and see how they correlate to the nominal value of the check weight.

It might be worth the time to do the experiments. Just to see...

Richard

Colorado4Wheel
10-09-2012, 09:47
A scale that has a readout to .02grains (or better) is kinda annoying in some ways. It drifts with the wind or any tiny movement of the table. Your seeing way more information then you need. Not that you can't ignore that stuff. But don't expect it to be super stable on your actual reloading bench. Of course it's just "noise" that can be ignored anyway.

SARDG
10-09-2012, 09:55
...The only thing to do is test multiple weights over many readings and see how they correlate to the nominal value of the check weight.

It might be worth the time to do the experiments. Just to see...

Richard
We all need to get together in the center of CONUS somewhere and bring all our respective scales and check-weights for experimental testing, perhaps in some bar somewhere. OR, just get together at some bar and drink ourselves silly and forget about all this, uh... stuff.

I find that burying my head in the sand is the best way to cope with these burning questions.

My head hurts! :faint:

Batesmotel
10-09-2012, 10:38
I am an NRA certified instructor for metallic cartridge and shot shell reloading. When students push me on ways to go cheap, like dippers instead of scales, old cans of powder, used dies of questionable quality Etc. All to save money. I ask one question.

Right now, put a dollar amount on your eyes and fingers then tell me if that amount is higher than the amount you are saving by going cheap?

fredj338
10-09-2012, 12:20
I am an NRA certified instructor for metallic cartridge and shot shell reloading. When students push me on ways to go cheap, like dippers instead of scales, old cans of powder, used dies of questionable quality Etc. All to save money. I ask one question.

Right now, put a dollar amount on your eyes and fingers then tell me if that amount is higher than the amount you are saving by going cheap?

It's exactly what I preach, I am also a NRA Inst. You want to go cheap, buy cheap dies & even cheap press, but spend your money on a good scale & measure. It may not matter much loading midrange load for the 223 or whatever rifle, but it can be huge in pistol loading w/ uberfast powders, where the diff between starting @ max is less than 0.5gr.:dunno:

ADK_40GLKr
10-09-2012, 14:05
Just don't quote this "noob" as an authority. I'm tryin' to figure it all out without blowing myself up!

stak
10-09-2012, 15:24
This guy says he compared the Gemini 20 using lab reference weights and a mg accurate certified scale. He said it did indeed meet the specifications listed.

Amazon.com: Ginkgo's review of American Weigh Gemini-20 Portable Milligra...@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41tuCIvhTPL.@@AMEPARAM@@41tuCIvhTPL

shotgunred
10-09-2012, 16:45
Of course you could buy a $50 beam scale and not worry about it.:tongueout:

WiskyT
10-09-2012, 16:56
Gotta get a scale. Should have this already.

I have a number of dippers for pet loads made from trimmed 9mm cases.

Always calibrated. Only re-calibrate with new lot of powder.

Never go out of adjustment.

First charge just as accurate as the last charge.

EASILY HOLD +/- 0.1 grain all day long. Even if using a Harrell measure you better use a scale on each charge if you need better repeatability.

All the Best,
D. White

This. Dippers are very precise. They are slow, but they are precise. The dippers need to be calibrated though. The Lee dippers are calibrated already. If you use the loads listed in the chart, you are good to go. But, the loads are limited. It can be hard to get a powder and bullet that you want to work with the Lee dipper you have. For 40SW, the only Lee dipper you can really use is the 0.5cc.

Making dippers from cases is the best way to go. You can make them to throw any weight you want, but you need to use a scale to calibrate them. Hook up with a buddy who has a scale. Bring some pistol cases, 32ACP works well, a file, and your powder and data to his house and make up some dippers. Glue the cases to bamboo grill skewers for handles. You can use Popsicle sticks too, but trim the stick down where it attaches to the case so powder doesn't collect on it.

I use a fine sharpie to write on the handle what the dipper throws. "3.5 Red Dot". You might need to use a Popsicle stick so you can write big enough to see:supergrin:

Anybody who says dippers aren't precise doesn't have a proper understanding of the place that precision has in reloading.

SARDG
10-09-2012, 17:22
This. Dippers are very precise. They are slow, but they are precise. The dippers need to be calibrated though. The Lee dippers ...

...Anybody who says dippers aren't precise doesn't have a proper understanding of the place that precision has in reloading.
I can appreciate yours and other's can-do attitude and the ability to make something useful (even accurate) out of scraps of cases and sticks with mundane tools no more complex than a file, and running to a friend's house and playing with scales and files all evening to make it happen - but if I had to make 1/10, nay... 1/100 that effort, just for the privilege of having a system that's capable of producing perhaps less than 1/100 of what I need, I most certainly wouldn't have taken up reloading.

As someone said earlier, and to me at least... these techniques are best left for the apocalypse. Perhaps we'll see this on future installments of "Revolution".

I think I am happy that I wasn't 'here' for the good old days. :embarassed:

WiskyT
10-09-2012, 17:24
It may NOT vary during that test. The website article I referenced above claims that circuits built into cheaper scales can mask inconsistent measurements. If a 10gr weight is placed on the scale and actually measures 10gr, the circuits will take subsequent readings within a 'range' (as an example, 9.8-10.2gr) and display them as 10gr. The author suggests "cleansing the palette" of the scale between test weights by weighing a much heavier or lighter weight in between test weights.

These algorithms are allegedly how low-cost scales can use resolution to mask inaccuracy and imprecision.

It seems irresponsible for a scale that people depend on for safety to mask inaccuracy, but it doesn't surprise me, I know for a fact that my cheap bathroom digital scale does this. I can weigh myself, get off the scale, pick up a 5# weight and get back on the scale. It will read the same weight. If I weigh myself, take a shower, and re-weigh, I find I can gain or loose 5# just from bathing. I guess the time in the shower allows the scale to reset.

At any rate, I have said many times I don't trust cheap digital scales. You have no idea what is going on inside them. They could read correctly 99 times out of 100 and how would you know which ones are wrong? People pride themselves on the precision of their digital scales when as you pointed out, what they are really looking at is how many significant figures are being displayed.

For $22.00, at least the Lee scale has to be correct.

WiskyT
10-09-2012, 17:31
I can appreciate yours and other's can-do attitude and the ability to make something useful (even accurate) out of scraps of cases and sticks with mundane tools no more complex than a file, and running to a friend's house and playing with scales and files all evening to make it happen - but if I had to make 1/10, nay... 1/100 that effort, just for the privilege of having a system that's capable of producing perhaps less than 1/100 of what I need, I most certainly wouldn't have taken up reloading.

As someone said earlier, and to me at least... these techniques are best left for the apocalypse. Perhaps we'll see this on future installments of "Revolution".

I think I am happy that I wasn't 'here' for the good old days. :embarassed:

It's not a good ole days or eotwawki thing, it's a money thing. Some people don't want to spend $100.00 on a scale and measure, and they don't need to. If the OP lived near me I'd make him up a dipper in 10 minutes and he'd be good to go. There really is no need to have adjustability. Many people are looking to make a cheaper version of ball ammo. Sine Win, Rem, Tula etc don't give you any expectation of a particular load, whatever load you come up with is as good as theirs. My buddy has been loading for two years now with a dipper I made him. I told him use this dipper, Unique, and any 124 grain bullet and you are good to go. The dipper is above the starting load, but still a full grain below the max. He'd have to use a hammer to pack the dipper and get his gun to blow up.

fredj338
10-09-2012, 17:48
This guy says he compared the Gemini 20 using lab reference weights and a mg accurate certified scale. He said it did indeed meet the specifications listed.

Amazon.com: Ginkgo's review of American Weigh Gemini-20 Portable Milligra... (http://www.amazon.com/review/R3FRRGZ42CYNO0/ref=cm_cr_dp_title?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B0012TDNAM&nodeID=284507&store=kitchen)

You do realize that anyone, including the manuf, can post a review on the product right?:dunno:
Dippers are fine for their intended task, making ammo that goes bang. If you do not have an adjustable measuire of some kind, then you are limited. Some reloaders/shooters are fine being limited, most though are not. Change powders or bulelts, make a new dipper? Not me, I like options. An adjustable measure & good scale give you unlimted options.

Taterhead
10-09-2012, 19:48
As I mentioned earlier, you could "calibrate" a homemade dipper, but different lots of powders can have different densities.

Example: Just last weekend, I ran ran out of powder from one lot. I refilled the hopper after empty with a new lot of the same powder and did all the usual measures to settle it, etc. (I do not mix lots). The new lot threw 2 tenths heavier because it was more dense. 2/10 wasn't a too terribly big deal with the slower burning powder I was using, but it could be a big deal if using a fast burner. I weighed on the scale and "re-calibrated" the throw by turning it down to a smaller volume.

unclebob
10-09-2012, 19:54
Of course you could buy a $50 beam scale and not worry about it.:tongueout:

How do you know if the beam scale is right?

WiskyT
10-09-2012, 20:05
As I mentioned earlier, you could "calibrate" a homemade dipper, but different lots of powders can have different densities.

Example: Just last weekend, I ran ran out of powder from one lot. I refilled the hopper after empty with a new lot of the same powder and did all the usual measures to settle it, etc. (I do not mix lots). The new lot threw 2 tenths heavier because it was more dense. 2/10 wasn't a too terribly big deal with the slower burning powder I was using, but it could be a big deal if using a fast burner. I weighed on the scale and "re-calibrated" the throw by turning it down to a smaller volume.

Correct, you have to have some margin. the table that comes with Lee dies shows only start loads for the dipper. It will show powder X with the dipper and say a 180 grain bullet as a start load of 4.0 grains and the dipper throwing 3.9, then it will show a max of 4.9 of the same powder with no dipper recommended for a max.

WiskyT
10-09-2012, 20:08
How do you know if the beam scale is right?

You can check it with check weights or you could trust the manufacturer to have checked it out. Once it's correct it's always going to be correct. The only problem it can have is if the moving parts get out of whack, which you can see by the way it tracks and settles out.

CanMan
10-09-2012, 20:28
How do you know if the beam scale is right?

about that scale;

Without a doubt. And a set of check weights.

I bet you play a mean fiddle & I'd like you to keep it that way. :wavey:

stak
10-10-2012, 10:11
You do realize that anyone, including the manuf, can post a review on the product right?

I do and lots of people on F___book just lost an average of 3% of their likes, upwards of 35%, due to the company shutting down fake accounts.

This person has made numerous other reviews with the same type of writing style and detail. A large portion of the reviews are technology. They write negatives as well as positives.

When mine arrives I will let you know what my tests bare out as I have access to a few certified scales and check weights.

-Mike

unclebob
10-10-2012, 13:44
Once it's correct it's always going to be correct.
If you want to believe that? That is youíre propagative. But I know of two cases where that was not the case.

F106 Fan
10-10-2012, 14:23
When mine arrives I will let you know what my tests bare out as I have access to a few certified scales and check weights.

-Mike

I would be very interested in your results. If I didn't have other priorities at the moment, I would probably buy one of the scales just to see how it turns out.

Richard

fredj338
10-10-2012, 18:05
I do and lots of people on F___book just lost an average of 3% of their likes, upwards of 35%, due to the company shutting down fake accounts.

This person has made numerous other reviews with the same type of writing style and detail. A large portion of the reviews are technology. They write negatives as well as positives.

When mine arrives I will let you know what my tests bare out as I have access to a few certified scales and check weights.

-Mike

Do let us know, I just doubt it, not yet, maybe sooner than later it will happen. Weigh diff check weights, turn it off & on, weigh again, leave it on weigh again, that is the real test; will it stay accurate over time & will it hold zero.
Calculators used to be $400 & now they give them away. So an accurate/cheap dig scale will happen.

Colorado4Wheel
10-10-2012, 21:13
The issue is the load cell. Not sure if the good ones will ever be cheap. $20 cheap seems unlikely.

TKM
10-11-2012, 13:48
If you want to believe that? That is youíre propagative. But I know of two cases where that was not the case.

He's a breeder? Not sure what that has to do with the subject at hand.:dunno:

shotgunred
10-11-2012, 16:18
If you want to believe that? That is youíre propagative. But I know of two cases where that was not the case.

Did gravity change or did they ding up their scales?

unclebob
10-11-2012, 17:07
He's a breeder? Not sure what that has to do with the subject at hand.:dunno:

May I suggest reading and comprehending all of the posts that were made before worrying about my now non exiting sex life. And donít you worry shortly after we got married my wife had to have a hysterectomy.
I might be old. But most of the time I do know what Iím putting up on the screen. And yes what I wrote had to do with what was brought up in the thread.
:panties:

unclebob
10-11-2012, 17:29
Did gravity change or did they ding up their scales?

Nope neither one. One was mine and the other was a friend of mine. Mine was an Ohaus dial o gram and his was an Ohaus and I forget the model.
Mine I would zero it out I even used a bubble to make sure it was level. Put the check weights in the pan and it would not weigh right of what was in the pan.
His we gave me a load to try and I loaded them up of what he said and my gun would not work. I would shoot his reloads and the gun would work. So I took a couple of rounds home and pulled the bullets and weighted the charge. The charge was more than what he said. He had an Ohaus and a Dillon digital. They did not read the same so he thought the Dillon was wrong and the beam was right. He then bought a set of check weights. The beam was wrong and the digital was right.
So you can draw your own conclusion but in my option a beam scale can be wrong from my experience.

F106 Fan
10-11-2012, 18:29
He had an Ohaus and a Dillon digital. They did not read the same so he thought the Dillon was wrong and the beam was right. He then bought a set of check weights. The beam was wrong and the digital was right.
So you can draw your own conclusion but in my option a beam scale can be wrong from my experience.

And that's the way to approach this powder measure/scale issue: Use check weights. Regardless of the type of scale.

Richard

WiskyT
10-11-2012, 19:11
May I suggest reading and comprehending all of the posts that were made before worrying about my now non exiting sex life. And donít you worry shortly after we got married my wife had to have a hysterectomy.
I might be old. But most of the time I do know what Iím putting up on the screen. And yes what I wrote had to do with what was brought up in the thread.
:panties:

I don't think he was making a shot at your marital relations, I think he was just poking fun at a malapropism you used.

TKM
10-12-2012, 00:40
May I suggest reading and comprehending all of the posts that were made before worrying about my now non exiting sex life. And don’t you worry shortly after we got married my wife had to have a hysterectomy.
I might be old. But most of the time I do know what I’m putting up on the screen. And yes what I wrote had to do with what was brought up in the thread.
:panties:

"That is you’re propagative"

You wrote it. You think you know what you meant.

I read it. I know what it means.

One of us is right.

Guess who?:tongueout:

superhornet
10-12-2012, 06:18
If you look at Lee,s loading data using the dippers, they tend to load on the low or even below low starting loads. They do throw viable loads if you can find a dipper number that covers a specific powder. I have been using homemade dippers since 1949 (granted not reloading as long as some of you) but in my experience dippers work just fine when checked and double checked against my old beam Ohaus 500 scale. I build dippers that fall into the mid-range of the loads. I never load to max as there is really no need to. Some of my loads with a dipper for 300 WSM-180 Accubond, have taken buffalo, moose, elk, caribou, black bear, caribou, and numerous white tail. Won a pistol G17, many years ago at Ft. Benning, using dipper load of Bullseye. Of course can no longer hold a pistol without tremors ...

ADK_40GLKr
10-12-2012, 09:42
"That is youíre propagative"
You wrote it. You think you know what you meant.
I read it. I know what it means.
One of us is right.
Guess who?:tongueout:

Is "English Nazi" an OXYMORON??

Anyway, those of us who aren't know he meant "prerogative".


pre∑rog∑a∑tive

[ pri růggətiv ]


1.privilege restricted to people of rank: an exclusive privilege or right enjoyed by a person or group occupying a particular rank or position
2.individual right or privilege: a privilege or right that allows a particular person or group to give orders or make decisions or judgments
3.privilege resulting from natural advantage: the right conferred by a natural advantage that places somebody in a position of superiority

Propagative I guess that would be an adjective describing this: prop∑a∑ga∑tion (pr p-g sh n)
n. 1. Multiplication or increase, as by natural reproduction.
2. The process of spreading to a larger area or greater number

:tongueout:

SARDG
10-12-2012, 10:48
Is "English Nazi" an OXYMORON??...
I'd like to be an English Nazi, but I am already accused of being an RO Nazi - so I just cringe at some of what I read on forums and move on. :supergrin:

unclebob
10-12-2012, 22:00
So I meant to spell prerogative. So sue me. Like Iím the only one that has ever misspelled a word on here.

TKM
10-13-2012, 02:03
So I meant to spell prerogative. So sue me. Like I’m the only one that has ever misspelled a word on here.

Okay, fine. You are right.

shotgunred
10-13-2012, 08:25
TKM the reloading forum on Glock TAlk is like other subforums. While it is OK to disagree with someone, we do it in a polite manner. Please be civil or please don't post here.