.45 ACP Small Primer v Large Primer loads [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Buckeye Glocks
10-08-2012, 08:55
How do you alter your loads when using small primer brass vs. larger primer brass for your .45 acp?

I recently acquired a large lot of brass - tumbled, inspected, and sorted it and found about 25% of it was small primer brass. I have only loaded large primer .45 acp in the past and wondered what any of you may do differently or if you have any suggestions.

Thanks

ColoCG
10-08-2012, 08:58
No alteration needed, just use the load you would use with LP but substitute SP. Simple.

DoctaGlockta
10-08-2012, 09:07
Same load with SP in 45acp does seem a little softer to me. Could be my imagination.

Buckeye Glocks
10-08-2012, 09:22
Thanks - That is what I thought but was not 100% and knew I could get a legit answer here.

fredj338
10-08-2012, 09:25
Same load with SP in 45acp does seem a little softer to me. Could be my imagination.

There is a small vel drop off w/ most powders, that could account for the "Softer' feeling load. So if you are worried about making PF, I woild bump the powder charge 1/10gr to account for that. Better way is to trade off the bastard sp brass for proper LP 45acp.:dunno:

Colorado4Wheel
10-08-2012, 10:09
I agree, Trade all that large pistol crap for SP and double your stash. Then laugh at the guys loading LP and paying for brass all the time.

Kentguy
10-08-2012, 11:27
Buckeye Glocks,

I have run into this problem as well. I have a post, a page or two back about SP/LP .45 primer pockets and Fred's advice; "So if you are worried about making PF, I would bump the powder charge 1/10gr to account for that." is right on the money, it works just fine if you want to play around with them.

I do think you'd be better off listening to his other piece of advice (I did)... "Better way is to trade off the bastard sp brass for proper LP 45acp." :thumbsup:

Zombie Steve
10-08-2012, 11:32
I agree, Trade all that large pistol crap for SP and double your stash. Then laugh at the guys loading LP and paying for brass all the time.

Sinner.

fredj338
10-08-2012, 12:50
I agree, Trade all that large pistol crap for SP and double your stash. Then laugh at the guys loading LP and paying for brass all the time.

I haven't bought 45acp brass in maybe 15yrs? It lasts almost forever & I pick up at least what I shoot every weekend @ the local IDPA matches.:tongueout:
I give my SP 45acp brass away to those poor lost souls that don't know better. My mom always told me to be kind to those mentally challenged.:whistling:

Colorado4Wheel
10-08-2012, 13:47
Your right. A lot of mentally challenged .45 shooters.

sellersm
10-08-2012, 16:23
Your right. A lot of mentally challenged .45 shooters.

Hey, I resemble that remark!! :tongueout:

I wish they'd standardize on a primer size... one less thing to do in a conversion! Call me a lazy American. :supergrin:

shotgunred
10-08-2012, 16:38
Being able to cast your own bullets and using small pistol primers has me seriously considering my first 1911.

Hoser
10-08-2012, 16:58
I like the small primer 45 ACP brass. One less flavor of primer to buy.

Then again, I re-barreled my 1911s in 45 ACP to 45 GAP. Everyone I know gives me that brass for free.

DoctaGlockta
10-08-2012, 18:03
Being able to cast your own bullets and using small pistol primers has me seriously considering my first 1911.

I have always assumed you were a 1911 kind of guy.

El_Ron1
10-08-2012, 18:05
A .45 ACP case with a small primer comes from the same place that the reloader of said case is headed to:







http://i41.tinypic.com/bi34sx.jpg

Keoking
10-08-2012, 18:27
I just force a LP into the SP pocket.

firefighter4215
10-08-2012, 19:33
I just force a LP into the SP pocket.

This sounds like a great solution!

Zombie Steve
10-08-2012, 19:47
Your right. A lot of mentally challenged .45 shooters.


Shut up, Squeaker. :tongueout:


I like the small primer 45 ACP brass. One less flavor of primer to buy.



Only if you shoot wet noodle small primer cartridges to begin with. For really super macho he-men like myself, it means I'd have to buy different primers.

shotgunred
10-08-2012, 20:02
I have always assumed you were a 1911 kind of guy.

No i am a fantastic plastic sort of guy. 4 glocks and 3 ar's.

fredj338
10-08-2012, 21:15
Your right. A lot of mentally challenged .45 shooters.

Yeah, yeah, 9mm is what my grand daughter will shoot, shes only 2, but she'll be ready in another 4-5yrs.:tongueout:

GWG19
10-09-2012, 07:56
The nincompoop who commited the sacrilege on the Holy 45ACP by putting a small pistol primer pocket in a 45ACP case should be tared and feather, have his micrometers smashed and finger nails removed.

Buckeye Glocks
10-09-2012, 09:19
I did not realize the depth of loathing for the SP .45! I guess I am not picky. So, any of you that want to get rid of your SP .45 brass - send me a PM and we can make arrangements to alleviate you of that scourge. Who knows maybe a few LP .45 will sneak into the mix.

fredj338
10-09-2012, 09:19
The nincompoop who commited the sacrilege on the Holy 45ACP by putting a small pistol primer pocket in a 45ACP case should be tared and feather, have his micrometers smashed and finger nails removed.

IT was an engineer @ ATK that has a 9mm fetish.:upeyes:

ROGER4314
10-09-2012, 09:31
I don't use the small pistol brass at all and just yesterday, finished sorting all of my brass and tossing the SP brass in the scrap bucket. If more manufacturers change over, I may take another look at that but for now, that's how it stands.

Flash

Buckeye Glocks
10-09-2012, 09:39
If you are throwing them in your scrap bucket - toss them in a bag and I will pay the postage for you to send them my way.

F106 Fan
10-09-2012, 10:01
I did not realize the depth of loathing for the SP .45! I guess I am not picky. So, any of you that want to get rid of your SP .45 brass - send me a PM and we can make arrangements to alleviate you of that scourge. Who knows maybe a few LP .45 will sneak into the mix.

The loathing is caused by real problems for reloaders! These cases are dangerous!

On a 550, if a SP case sneaks in, it is possible to almost seat a large primer. It will dangle out of the case and jam up the shell plate. The only way to remove it is to decap the case again. And this extra decapping double charges the case at station two! This is a serious issue for the unwarry. Yes, I know, just remove the charged case before the second decapping and replace it after priming another case and before rotating the shell plate.

On a 650, the dangling primer won't jam up the shell plate and the case can be easily removed. The only potential problem is being overexuberant in seating the primer and detonating, not only the primer under the case, but the entire chain of primers back up through the tube. I am not saying that I have ever even heard of this event occuring in just this way but there is a video of the results of at least one chain fire on a 650:
Dillon Primer Detonation - YouTube

At least on the 550, only one primer will detonate.

On the 1050, the SP case jams up the machine at the primer swaging station. The ratchet mechanism won't allow the operator to back out and some intervention is required. There is also a possibility that the press didn't completely stroke the powder measure depending on how the operator intervenes.

On the RCBS Green Machine, the primer station is directly under the powder measure. An exploding primer will probably not cause a huge issue but the BATF was concerned enough to write me a threatening letter about their interest in future events. After I blew up a primer on this press, I immediately ordered a 1050.

It's easy enough to sit back an giggle about the debate over SP vs LP but the SP brass poses a significant hazard. Sure, you can try to separate your brass. Yes, you can try to pick up only YOUR brass. But, in the end, you will inevitably pick up some SP cases and you WILL miss them when you sort. If you sort... I don't sort my cases; I don't even look at them.

At the moment, I have about 5000 empty .45 cases. How many do you suppose are SP? How many passes will it take to catch them all?

Richard

Buckeye Glocks
10-09-2012, 10:15
I use a single stage press. I usually do small runs when I load. I have the time to check all my cases.
You did an excellent job of explaining the problems they pose when running a progressive press. If I ran a progressive I would probably hold them in the same contempt as you and others have explained.

Colorado4Wheel
10-09-2012, 10:40
Oh the Horrors!!!!!!!

SARDG
10-09-2012, 11:07
...there is a video of the results of at least one chain fire on a 650:

Richard
It's obvious he had 'issues' - but I cannot see how leaving off the ejector wire can cause that. His explanation doesn't seem plausible.

F106 Fan
10-09-2012, 12:06
It's obvious he had 'issues' - but I cannot see how leaving off the ejector wire can cause that. His explanation doesn't seem plausible.

He talks about the case feeder mechanism jamming an empty case up against a loaded case that shouldn't be there. He suggests that this pushed the shell plate out of alignment enough to detonate a primer.

Beats me! I don't know if this is possible or not. But there is no question about the chain fire. It's pretty impressive!

I have popped a couple of LP primers trying to seat them in a SP case and I can't say it won't happen again. The only saving grace is that I do my .45 loading on a 1050 so the press jams up when the case hits the swaging station.

The only opportunities for a primer incident with the 650, as I run it, comes from .223 and 9mm crimped cases. Those have nothing to do with LP vs SP.

I may just buy a caliber conversion for the 1050. That would solve the .223 problem forever. We aren't shooting the 9mm very much so it just isn't a problem.

Richard

fredj338
10-09-2012, 12:14
I'm not buying the safety issue at all, unless you are just a handle puller. I load a ton of 45acp. It's not possible to even come close to seating a LP in a SP case, it just won't fit. I get the occasional one in the 650, it just prevents me from seating the primer, nothing else. So all you need to do is remove the offending case & proceed. Since the priming on a 550 or 650 is not on the down stroke, nothing advances. So it's more an annoyance than anything else. If you are pulling the handle that fast, with that much force, you have other issues reloading. I have NEVER detonated a primer in my press, every, not in more than 250K rds on my 550 & 650.

F106 Fan
10-09-2012, 12:28
There are some cases, like S&B, where the primer pocket is very tight. The difference in force between seating a primer in a tight pocket and popping one against a SP case is not all that much.

For me, it has happened twice. It's pretty certain that it will happen for others.

I wonder if the fact that I use Federal primers has anything to do with it. They are reputed to be more sensitive than other brands such as CCI.

Richard

Hoser
10-09-2012, 12:48
The last batch of 45 ACP that I loaded was with range brass. There was some SP brass mixed in. Out of 2,000 pcs I pulled out about 40-45 pcs.

Crazy I know, but I went through and culled out all the SP brass ahead of time.

Zombie Steve
10-09-2012, 13:46
Oh the Horrors!!!!!!!

Leave the threads about big-boy cartridges to the big boys, Heather.


:moonie:

F106 Fan
10-09-2012, 13:47
The last batch of 45 ACP that I loaded was with range brass. There was some SP brass mixed in. Out of 2,000 pcs I pulled out about 40-45 pcs.

Crazy I know, but I went through and culled out all the SP brass ahead of time.


I have tried the same thing. The problem is, I can't achieve perfection. In spite of my best efforts, I still get 1 or 2 per thousand into the hopper.

Richard

Colorado4Wheel
10-09-2012, 14:19
Leave the threads about big-boy cartridges to the big boys, Heather.


:moonie:


When they start making 10mm with SP primers I am going to throw a Big Boy hisse fit. Just to fit in.

unclebob
10-09-2012, 14:43
It's obvious he had 'issues' - but I cannot see how leaving off the ejector wire can cause that. His explanation doesn't seem plausible.

:agree:
I have popped 3 primers. A friend of mine that I know has set off the whole tube at least 3 times that I know of. I was there when he set off the first one. Other than destroying some parts and putting a hole in the ceiling. It really is not that big a deal that everyone tries to make it out to be. The 650 press does its job.

Zombie Steve
10-09-2012, 16:56
When they start making 10mm with SP primers I am going to throw a Big Boy hisse fit. Just to fit in.

:fist:

shotgunred
10-09-2012, 17:57
You guys should all just send me the small pistol primer brass.

njl
10-09-2012, 20:46
The loathing is caused by real problems for reloaders! These cases are dangerous!

On a 550, if a SP case sneaks in, it is possible to almost seat a large primer. It will dangle out of the case and jam up the shell plate. The only way to remove it is to decap the case again. And this extra decapping double charges the case at station two! This is a serious issue for the unwarry. Yes, I know, just remove the charged case before the second decapping and replace it after priming another case and before rotating the shell plate.


Actually, if you pull the handle just a little (raise the shell plate just a little) so that the shell plate is above the primer slide cup, there's a channel in the shell plate which I assume is there so that you can remove a partially primed (or a decapped case which has partially reseated the primer which had stuck to the decapping pin). I've had to do the latter numerous times. I suspect, if you managed to partially insert a LP into a SP pocket, you could remove such a piece of brass this way. I'm not volunteering to try it.

fredj338
10-09-2012, 21:59
I suspect, if you managed to partially insert a LP into a SP pocket, you could remove such a piece of brass this way. I'm not volunteering to try it.

It's just not possible, they don't fit. Push on the handle, feel resistance, stop & find out why, simple. It doesn't take much force to seat a primer.

judgecrater
10-10-2012, 09:32
It's just not possible, they don't fit. Push on the handle, feel resistance, stop & find out why, simple. It doesn't take much force to seat a primer.
Exactly! When I feel the extra resistance jamming the press (Dillon) I stop pushing! Remove the sp brass and continue. It happens and I move on. I don't see a problem.
You can "Hope for Change" but the manufacture of sp 45ACP is not going away.

Zombie Steve
10-10-2012, 10:09
http://media.247sports.com/Uploads/Avatars/914/30326.gif

Zombie Steve
10-10-2012, 10:13
Couple things from another thread on this subject that just deserve to be quoted here:


Disgusting God hating freaks... Pretty soon, they'll be clamorin' to be able to get married to each other.

-El_Ron1



http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x214/sbecht/SPPvsLPP.jpg

Colorado4Wheel
10-10-2012, 10:32
That is funny.

fredj338
10-10-2012, 13:19
Well, the guys that like small primers probably like girls w/ small hands for the same reason?????:supergrin:

DoctaGlockta
10-10-2012, 13:50
SP 45acp just seems so unAmerican to me.

Zombie Steve
10-10-2012, 15:13
Not to late for write-ins, guys. This will be the leading part of my plan to rebuild America.




ZS 2012!

http://exemployee.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/american_flag.jpg

dkf
10-10-2012, 15:43
Well, the guys that like small primers probably like girls w/ small hands for the same reason?????:supergrin:

Girls with small hands usually do not have adams apples.

Don't worry I won't judge you for liking the large handed "girls" Fred.:pjmn:

tkglazie
10-10-2012, 17:57
There are some cases, like S&B, where the primer pocket is very tight. The difference in force between seating a primer in a tight pocket and popping one against a SP case is not all that much.

For me, it has happened twice. It's pretty certain that it will happen for others.

I wonder if the fact that I use Federal primers has anything to do with it. They are reputed to be more sensitive than other brands such as CCI.

Richard

I also have some issues with S&B cases (although only their 9mm cases) and I am a federal primer man. I am willing to put up with the inconvenience for the sake of using the most reliable primer on the market;)

fredj338
10-10-2012, 17:59
Girls with small hands usually do not have adams apples.

Don't worry I won't judge you for liking the large handed "girls" Fred.:pjmn:
Snap!!:wavey:

njl
10-10-2012, 18:04
There are some cases, like S&B, where the primer pocket is very tight. The difference in force between seating a primer in a tight pocket and popping one against a SP case is not all that much.


One of many reasons you should sort your brass by headstamp and load one type of brass at a time. If it feels different, you know there's a problem.

The few times I've loaded mixed brass, it's been really disconcerting with some primers practically falling into the pockets and others needing to be seriously mashed in to fully seat.

fredj338
10-10-2012, 18:08
One of many reasons you should sort your brass by headstamp and load one type of brass at a time. If it feels different, you know there's a problem.

The few times I've loaded mixed brass, it's been really disconcerting with some primers practically falling into the pockets and others needing to be seriously mashed in to fully seat.

Who really does this though? I never sort handgun brass, unless it's for hunting loads in my 44mags. There just isn't much diff for me to sort for shooting out to 25yds, any caliber.:dunno:

unclebob
10-10-2012, 18:13
Not to late for write-ins, guys. This will be the leading part of my plan to rebuild America.




ZS 2012!

http://exemployee.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/american_flag.jpg

Any vote other than Romney is a vote for the snake in the grass Obama. 4 more years of him in which he will appoint 2 or 3 very Liberal Supreme Court Judges. So can we really afford to vote for anyone else?

Hoser
10-10-2012, 18:15
Well, the guys that like small primers probably like girls w/ small hands for the same reason?????

The most beautiful woman in Thailand is a dude.

njl
10-10-2012, 18:40
Who really does this though? I never sort handgun brass, unless it's for hunting loads in my 44mags. There just isn't much diff for me to sort for shooting out to 25yds, any caliber.:dunno:

For 9mm, I always sort...though sorting means Win, FC, RP all get separate containers. Other headstamps I'll mix certain ones together. There's too much crap brass out there to do blind mixed. For .45acp, I sort my WCC Match brass separately and mix good stuff together and toss bad stuff to a separate bin.

Keoking
10-10-2012, 19:20
I'm so manly and ultra-American, I forge my own 45acp brass with the entire head being a primer pocket, and produce my own XLP primers to fill it. My XLP primers pack more punch than rifle primers. I figure I'm pushing a 230gr bullet at about 3500 feet per second. It makes a sonic boom before it leaves the barrel of my G30. I had to stop using hollow points because the petals sometimes opened up in the middle of the barrel.

fredj338
10-10-2012, 23:52
The most beautiful woman in Thailand is a dude.

I want to know how you & dkf know thses things????:wow:

fredj338
10-10-2012, 23:54
For 9mm, I always sort...though sorting means Win, FC, RP all get separate containers. Other headstamps I'll mix certain ones together. There's too much crap brass out there to do blind mixed. For .45acp, I sort my WCC Match brass separately and mix good stuff together and toss bad stuff to a separate bin.
I just don't bother w/ service calibers, but then I am never running max loads either. I can't complain, most of my stuff shoots under 2 1/2" @ 25yds from decent guns, even a couple Glocks.:faint:

sellersm
10-11-2012, 00:35
Not to late for write-ins, guys. This will be the leading part of my plan to rebuild America.




ZS 2012!

http://exemployee.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/american_flag.jpg

So you're going to do away with SP primers? What else is on your 'platform'? :supergrin:

Zombie Steve
10-11-2012, 01:10
So you're going to do away with SP primers? What else is on your 'platform'? :supergrin:

Free Varget and love, man... free Varget and love!

ROGER4314
10-11-2012, 08:37
I will pay the postage for you to send them my way.

I would be happy to do that for you but the scrap bucket is gone, now. My friend sells the brass for scrap and I give him my "culls."

Is there a brass exchange in the site? I'd be happy to participate.

Flash

F106 Fan
10-11-2012, 09:05
I will pay the postage for you to send them my way.

I would be happy to do that for you but the scrap bucket is gone, now. My friend sells the brass for scrap and I give him my "culls."

Is there a brass exchange in the site? I'd be happy to participate.

Flash

I have explained the concepts of karma and six-degrees-of-separation before. In short, the problem with sending that SP brass to someone is "what goes around, comes around". Sooner or later that brass will be back at your range.

The only solution is to destroy it. Get it out of circulation, permanently! Send it to a landfill where it can rot in peace.

This is a 'least effort' solution. It is satisfactory unless they guy at the transfer station picks it up and gets is back in circulation. One solution is to pack the cases in the bags with dog poop. I'm pretty sure they don't open up the Mutt Mitts.

A better solution is to smash the brass with a sledge hammer before sending it to a landfill. Or cut the case walls with a pair of tin snips. There might even be a calming effect to these alternatives. I think the sledge hammer solution might be particularly appropriate as we approach the election.

Richard

Colorado4Wheel
10-11-2012, 09:38
Throwing brass away shod get you flogged. Seriously. At least recycle it.