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Yankee2718
10-09-2012, 13:41
If you watch his videos you can start to pick up on certain trends. I notice bullets that achieve >1000 fps seem to cause more internal damage than bullets that achieve <1000 fps. The slower bullets seem to just punch a straight path and not "churn" up the gel.

Some of the Underwood Ammo 10mm offerings in the 1500-1600 fps range produce a damage path that looks similar (not the same) to a .223 damage path.

I think that velocity and bullet construction is playing a bigger role in the wounding abilities of these bullets than the actual size of the bullet.

Categories.

115 grain+ weighted bullets >1250 fps

115 grain+ weighted bullets >1400 fps

124 grain+ weighted bullets >1200 fps

124 grain+ weighted bullets >1250 fps

165 grain+ weighted bullets >1000 fps

200 grain+ weighted bullets > 850 fps



Each individual category has some tradeoffs.
115 grain+ weighted bullets >1400fps produce a large damage path but also produce shallow penetration.
124 grain+ weighted bullets >1200 fps offer a balanced mix of large damage path and adequate penetration.
165 grain+ weighted bullets >1000 fps create adequate penetration, but not always a large damage path.

200 grain+ weighted bullets >850 fps penetrate deeply, but do not produce a large damage path.

In regards to 155 and 165 grain bullets traveling >1150 fps, I don't have enough data to make any meaningful observations.

With the data produced by tnoutdoors9, I can make a few hypotheses:

The best all-around performers based on the data available, appear to be 124 grain+ weighted bullets >1200 fps and 165 grain+ weighted bullets >1000 fps.

This could change with additional testing of 155 grain bullets traveling at 1300/1400 fps, 165 grain bullets traveling at 1200/1300 fps, and 180 grain bullets traveling 1100-1300 fps.

Testing of the Underwood .45 ACP 185 grain GDHP at 1200 fps and 230 grain GDHP at 1000 fps would be interesting and are necessary missing data points.

The only conclusion I can draw from the current data points is that 1000 +/- 25 fps seems to be a threshold for creating a damage path. Bullets moving slower than 975 fps appear to mostly push straight through.

These are just my observations. These could also be meaningless as simulating actual live tissue is much different than a ballistic medium.

cowboy1964
10-09-2012, 13:57
I like mid-weight, fast, bullets personally, at least in 9mm. I do think energy is a factor.

That said, pistol bullets at these velocities simply do not create damage from the temporary cavity. Only tissue that is physically touched by the bullet is permanently damaged. .357 Sig consistently produces the most impressive permanent cavities, especially in overall length of the large permanent cavity (typically around 7 inches).

This is a good read:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm

Yankee2718
10-09-2012, 14:16
I like mid-weight, fast, bullets personally, at least in 9mm. I do think energy is a factor.

That said, pistol bullets at these velocities simply do not create damage from the temporary cavity. Only tissue that is physically touched by the bullet is permanently damaged. .357 Sig consistently produces the most impressive permanent cavities, especially in overall length of the large permanent cavity (typically around 7 inches).

This is a good read:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm

The damage to the gel is what I am basing my observations on. I'm not even jumping into the ballistic pressure wave game.

ABNAK
10-09-2012, 14:51
The damage to the gel is what I am basing my observations on. I'm not even jumping into the ballistic pressure wave game.

The gel damage, or "churning" as you put it, is an indicator of temporary stretch cavity. Now this is a long-running debate on here as to whether it has any impact on incapacitation by being strong enough to actually tear organs not specifically touched by the bullet itself. I dunno personally......I'm on the fence. Always have liked a "dynamic" bullet, but some of these newer bullet designs like HST don't need a screaming velocity to perform as far as expansion and penetration are concerned. :dunno:

The ballistic pressure wave is more concerning "shock" to the CNS or cardiovascular system from a wave of pressure.

Frankly I'd put more likelihood of actually occuring on the temporary stretch cavity causing additional damage than I would the ballistic pressure wave slapping someone down.

Yankee2718
10-09-2012, 16:02
Where the gel has been "churned" that indicates damage. In a scientific format, that equals more damage.

uz2bUSMC
10-09-2012, 16:06
Frankly I'd put more likelihood of actually occuring on the temporary stretch cavity causing additional damage than I would the ballistic pressure wave slapping someone down.

These two things you mention go hand in hand.

uz2bUSMC
10-09-2012, 16:08
I like mid-weight, fast, bullets personally, at least in 9mm. I do think energy is a factor.

That said, pistol bullets at these velocities simply do not create damage from the temporary cavity. Only tissue that is physically touched by the bullet is permanently damaged. .357 Sig consistently produces the most impressive permanent cavities, especially in overall length of the large permanent cavity (typically around 7 inches).

This is a good read:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm

You post those links so much you must be sold on the koolaid, very, very old koolaid at that.

ABNAK
10-09-2012, 16:51
These two things you mention go hand in hand.

I think the first one is at least *possible* with handgun rounds, the BPW probably not unless we start talking about the next level, i.e. rifles.

uz2bUSMC
10-09-2012, 17:05
I think the first one is at least *possible* with handgun rounds, the BPW probably not unless we start talking about the next level, i.e. rifles.

Like I said, they go hand in hand. The peripheral wounding of a bullet is also caused by said wave. It is not as simple as just rifle or pistol rounds. It is also not just as simple as more or less velocity, it is the rate of transfer which coincides with bullet construction. Do rifles have it easier because of higher energy levels? Yes. But it is a lot of factors and how they work together that makes the difference. Pistols have the same capabilities (within reason) but must transfer much faster since they start out with less energy. Anemic rounds will have the most trouble with this since they cannot spend themselves on rapid expansion to gain a decent temp cavity and hope to have enough left for a desirable penetration depth.

PrecisionRifleman
10-09-2012, 17:19
I'm a fan of accuracy, speed, and penetration. This is my reason for going with a 155gr XTP handloaded in a 40S&W. The 155XTP has good velocity (1150-1200fps depending on load), it expands (not as much as some), and you get stellar penetration. I'm also getting more consistent, and excellent accuracy from my handloaded 155XTP's @ 1150fps (haven't tried higher velocity YET) than any other store bought whiz bang round that you can get at your LGS. TnOutDoors has tested the XTP bullet in GEL using the Hornady TAP load, and it performed impressively based on the criteria I look for in a handgun cartridge.

Hornady TAP FPD .40 S&W 155 gr JHP SIM-TEST w/denim - YouTube

dpadams6
10-09-2012, 17:42
This coincides what ive been saying for years and have seen quite a bit first hand. The 357sig is the best handgun caliber on the planet, for all around self defense.

Zombie Steve
10-09-2012, 17:52
This coincides what ive been saying for years and have seen quite a bit first hand. The 357sig is the best handgun caliber on the planet, for all around self defense.

Yep... it's done a pretty good job of duplicating one .357 magnum load on the light end...

:upeyes:

PrecisionRifleman
10-09-2012, 18:02
This coincides what ive been saying for years and have seen quite a bit first hand. The 357sig is the best handgun caliber on the planet, for all around self defense.

10mm stomps the 357sig between bullet diameter, bullet weight, and velocity. :tongueout:

Plus I'll take a 40S&W 155gr moving @ 1200fps in a 4" barrel over a 9mm 125gr bullet moving @ 1350 in a 4" barrel. But that's just my preference. To each their own.

cowboy1964
10-09-2012, 18:04
The gel isn't "churned". The path you see carved out is where the bullet has cut through. There is also going to be variability in how he slices the halves. You'll notice he uses that little pick thing to pry open the damage channel so it can be seen better.

Why do you think the maximum cavity isn't produced until several inches in? Because the bullet hasn't fully expanded yet! The damage is only being caused by what the bullet is physically touching. If temporary cavity/energy was causing damage you would see more damage at the entry point because that is where max energy is occurring but all you see is a wound track the diameter of the original caliber.

BTW, his .40 180gr HST test was one of the best for wound channel, in any weight or caliber.

.40 Federal HST 180 gr Ammo Gel Test - YouTube

What more proof? Look at one of his few videos where he shows front facing cross-sections of gel. The only damage is where the shaft of the bullet and the petals have cut through. For example, watch this starting at 3:30:

.45 ACP Federal HST 230 gr Ammo Gel Test - YouTube

BUT... the .357 Sig videos do show some evidence of the temporary cavity actually permanently deforming gel outside of the permanent cavity. So anyone dissing the .357 Sig hasn't been paying attention.

cowboy1964
10-09-2012, 18:05
Yep... it's done a pretty good job of duplicating one .357 magnum load on the light end...

:upeyes:

Well, that "light end" is where the legend of the .357 Magnum lives.

ABNAK
10-09-2012, 18:14
Pistols have the same capabilities (within reason) but must transfer much faster since they start out with less energy.

This is why I have begun to favor the 357Sig of the 1400+fps variety (Underwood, Cor Bon, and despite my recent experience, DoubleTap too). *If* this extraneous damage is going to occur it's going to be with a very dynamic round, i.e. quite fast with a quick energy dump. I'd go as far as saying a 155gr .40 pushing 1200+fps would get it done too with the right bullet.

SCmasterblaster
10-09-2012, 18:17
According to his data, I need not worry about over-penetration with my +p+ 115gr JHP 9mms, even though they are likely going over 1400 FPS.

uz2bUSMC
10-09-2012, 18:30
The gel isn't "churned". The path you see carved out is where the bullet has cut through. There is also going to be variability in how he slices the halves. You'll notice he uses that little pick thing to pry open the damage channel so it can be seen better.

Why do you think the maximum cavity isn't produced until several inches in? Because the bullet hasn't fully expanded yet! The damage is only being caused by what the bullet is physically touching. If temporary cavity/energy was causing damage you would see more damage at the entry point because that is where max energy is occurring but all you see is a wound track the diameter of the original caliber.

BTW, his .40 180gr HST test was one of the best for wound channel, in any weight or caliber.

.40 Federal HST 180 gr Ammo Gel Test - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWy2AB_AQYo)

What more proof? Look at one of his few videos where he shows front facing cross-sections of gel. The only damage is where the shaft of the bullet and the petals have cut through. For example, watch this starting at 3:30:

.45 ACP Federal HST 230 gr Ammo Gel Test - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWW2Y-IZpyE)

BUT... the .357 Sig videos do show some evidence of the temporary cavity actually permanently deforming gel outside of the permanent cavity. So anyone dissing the .357 Sig hasn't been paying attention.

:dunno: You literally contradicted yourself all in one post.

Anyway, you can see temp cavity effects with other rounds he has tested, the 10mm 180grn GD being a good example. The bullet clearly does not touch the media an 1" (2' dia.) away from the bullet track yet there is damage...

uz2bUSMC
10-09-2012, 18:31
This is why I have begun to favor the 357Sig of the 1400+fps variety (Underwood, Cor Bon, and despite my recent experience, DoubleTap too). *If* this extraneous damage is going to occur it's going to be with a very dynamic round, i.e. quite fast with a quick energy dump. I'd go as far as saying a 155gr .40 pushing 1200+fps would get it done too with the right bullet.

Agreed.

unit1069
10-09-2012, 18:32
If you watch his videos you can start to pick up on certain trends. I notice bullets that achieve >1000 fps seem to cause more internal damage than bullets that achieve <1000 fps. The slower bullets seem to just punch a straight path and not "churn" up the gel.

In a perfect world physics would determine our handgun/ammo choices. The catch is that what is evident in static calibrated gel doesn't reflect the myriad factors that go into each and every self-defense scenario.

All things being equal, (e.g. reliable consistent mushrooming of the bullet) the faster a bullet of any given caliber delivers its energy the greater its effect as long as the bullet remains in the target. But the variables in self-defense shootings are so numerous that I doubt there will ever be a perfect world answer all of us would accept.

SCmasterblaster
10-09-2012, 18:52
According to his data, I need not worry about over-penetration with my +p+ 115gr JHP 9mms, even though they are likely going over 1400 FPS.

One day I am going to chrono this load. :cool:

Yankee2718
10-09-2012, 20:29
The gel isn't "churned". The path you see carved out is where the bullet has cut through. There is also going to be variability in how he slices the halves. You'll notice he uses that little pick thing to pry open the damage channel so it can be seen better.

Why do you think the maximum cavity isn't produced until several inches in? Because the bullet hasn't fully expanded yet! The damage is only being caused by what the bullet is physically touching. If temporary cavity/energy was causing damage you would see more damage at the entry point because that is where max energy is occurring but all you see is a wound track the diameter of the original caliber.

BTW, his .40 180gr HST test was one of the best for wound channel, in any weight or caliber.

.40 Federal HST 180 gr Ammo Gel Test - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWy2AB_AQYo)

What more proof? Look at one of his few videos where he shows front facing cross-sections of gel. The only damage is where the shaft of the bullet and the petals have cut through. For example, watch this starting at 3:30:

.45 ACP Federal HST 230 gr Ammo Gel Test - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWW2Y-IZpyE)

BUT... the .357 Sig videos do show some evidence of the temporary cavity actually permanently deforming gel outside of the permanent cavity. So anyone dissing the .357 Sig hasn't been paying attention.
"Churned" may have been a poor word choice, but cutting is more accurate. There is more evidence of tearing at 1000+ fps. The slow moving .45 slugs simply push right through the gel. Even when he shows the cross section of the .45 rounds, there is no actual gel disruption. The sections fold back together. With the faster rounds there is some evidence of tearing in addition to cutting.

From what I've seen in his tests, 1220-1250 fps seems to be the starting point at any sort of temporary cavity damage. Still it appears to be minimal. There is more evidence of tearing and cutting though.

Zombie Steve
10-09-2012, 20:54
Well, that "light end" is where the legend of the .357 Magnum lives.

Or the only part of the legend you've payed attention to...

It's a very capable woods round as well with 158's or 180's. Has been since 1934.

http://i561.photobucket.com/albums/ss57/Smith29-2/357ad.jpg

PrecisionRifleman
10-09-2012, 21:27
Or the only part of the legend you've payed attention to...

It's a very capable woods round as well with 158's or 180's. Has been since 1934.

http://i561.photobucket.com/albums/ss57/Smith29-2/357ad.jpg

True story. :goodpost:

ABNAK
10-09-2012, 21:37
True story. :goodpost:


Okay, it has like a carbine-length barrel! SBR anyways......

avenues165
10-09-2012, 21:42
In a perfect world physics would determine our handgun/ammo choices. The catch is that what is evident in static calibrated gel doesn't reflect the myriad factors that go into each and every self-defense scenario.

All things being equal, (e.g. reliable consistent mushrooming of the bullet) the faster a bullet of any given caliber delivers its energy the greater its effect as long as the bullet remains in the target. But the variables in self-defense shootings are so numerous that I doubt there will ever be a perfect world answer all of us would accept.

This.

With the number of variables, all we can do is hope for the best.

I still really like the idea of a 357 sig with a round loaded to its potential with a bullet designed for its velocities. I am still waiting to see TNOutdoors9 do a test of a 357 sig load moving at 1,450fps or greater.

Also, I have to admit that hot 10mm loads look particularly nasty on paper and in his tests. I would love to see a 10mm 165gr or 155gr UW load test.

PrecisionRifleman
10-09-2012, 21:45
Okay, it has like a carbine-length barrel! SBR anyways......

You have to give the original 357 Mag credit where credit is due.

SCmasterblaster
10-10-2012, 07:48
I'm a fan of accuracy, speed, and penetration. This is my reason for going with a 155gr XTP handloaded in a 40S&W. The 155XTP has good velocity (1150-1200fps depending on load), it expands (not as much as some), and you get stellar penetration. I'm also getting more consistent, and excellent accuracy from my handloaded 155XTP's @ 1150fps (haven't tried higher velocity YET) than any other store bought whiz bang round that you can get at your LGS. TnOutDoors has tested the XTP bullet in GEL using the Hornady TAP load, and it performed impressively based on the criteria I look for in a handgun cartridge.

Hornady TAP FPD .40 S&W 155 gr JHP SIM-TEST w/denim - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwBckM2GQQ4)

Nice, informative video.

Zombie Steve
10-10-2012, 08:39
Okay, it has like a carbine-length barrel! SBR anyways......

:supergrin:

I didn't mean to derail the thread, but when you post something like "best handgun caliber on the planet for all around self defense" in caliber corner, you can expect the monkeys to start banging the tin cans and howling.

I didn't even get into the potential of the .45 Colt, the .44 mag, et cetera...


FWIW, I have no problem carrying a .357 mag in town or in the woods. The .357 sig, while impressive in the first role, is never going to have a place in the second. To me, self defense includes 4-legged animals too... I spend a lot of time in the mountains.

YMMV.

dpadams6
10-10-2012, 10:16
10mm stomps the 357sig between bullet diameter, bullet weight, and velocity. :tongueout:

Plus I'll take a 40S&W 155gr moving @ 1200fps in a 4" barrel over a 9mm 125gr bullet moving @ 1350 in a 4" barrel. But that's just my preference. To each their own.
Anyone who has used a handgun in self defense would prob. Believe that the 10mm might be a bit much in that situation for accuracy/control/follow-up shots. Great round otherwise. Someone once said, maybe this forum, that the 125 grain bullet just seems to be the ideal weight for defense against humans (357mag). Not to little and not too much. And 357 sig as well. They just work. Ive never heard of anyone say anything negative with the 357 sig. Every police dept. That uses it seem to like it very well. The secret service stated that it was the most effective round they ever tested. The 40 s&w 155 at 1200fps seems like that would be a fantastic round as well.

dpadams6
10-10-2012, 10:20
According to his data, I need not worry about over-penetration with my +p+ 115gr JHP 9mms, even though they are likely going over 1400 FPS.

Another fantastic round. No one can say this round has not proven to work in the streets for years. Was very effective.

dpadams6
10-10-2012, 10:25
:supergrin:

I didn't mean to derail the thread, but when you post something like "best handgun caliber on the planet for all around self defense" in caliber corner, you can expect the monkeys to start banging the tin cans and howling.

I didn't even get into the potential of the .45 Colt, the .44 mag, et cetera...


FWIW, I have no problem carrying a .357 mag in town or in the woods. The .357 sig, while impressive in the first role, is never going to have a place in the second. To me, self defense includes 4-legged animals too... I spend a lot of time in the mountains.

YMMV.
was referring to humans only and being ideal. Actually the 357mag has been more effective than the 44mag AGAINST HUMANS. 44mag is a bit much and would not be ideal for accuracy/control and follow up shots, which most of the time are needed in a self defense situation.

Yankee2718
10-10-2012, 11:02
This thread is not about what is the absolute best cartridge in the world. It is only about observations from the tests that tnoutdoors9 posts on YouTube.

Yankee2718
10-10-2012, 11:19
Anyone who has used a handgun in self defense would prob. Believe that the 10mm might be a bit much in that situation for accuracy/control/follow-up shots. Great round otherwise. Someone once said, maybe this forum, that the 125 grain bullet just seems to be the ideal weight for defense against humans (357mag). Not to little and not too much. And 357 sig as well. They just work. Ive never heard of anyone say anything negative with the 357 sig. Every police dept. That uses it seem to like it very well. The secret service stated that it was the most effective round they ever tested. The 40 s&w 155 at 1200fps seems like that would be a fantastic round as well.

The .357 Sig is very impressive. Underwood ammo has proven that the lowly 9mm can be loaded to near .357 Sig velocity. The Underwood 124 +P+ makes 1300 fps from a Glock 19. The Speer factory 125 grain Gold Dot made I think only 30 or so fps more from a Glock 32. It will be nice to see if he tests some of the Underwood .357 Sig ammunition for more comparison.

In regards to the .357 Magnum, it is a stellar round, when fired out of an appropriate pistol. Tnoutdoors9's tests have showed that in a self defense size pistol (Ruger GP100) the 357 magnum is neck in neck with the 357 Sig. It is still a very viable weapon, but the damage caused by the 357 Magnum from the GP100 is not much greater than the 357 Sig or fast 115 and 124 grain 9mm rounds.

Out of a 6 inch barrel the 357 magnum might leave both of those rounds in the dust, but not from a weapon the size of an average carry weapon.

paragon1
10-10-2012, 11:53
"Damage" to jelly does not equal damage to flesh. Jelly is bouncy brittle. flesh is flexible. Handgun rounds punch a hole. Nothing more nothing less.

Shoot a deer with a .357 magnum @ 1400 fps, and shoot one with a 1000 fps.147 gr. 9mm. You can't tell a difference in the wound paths, other than the .357 doesn't penetrate as well.

I will try to do this during hunting season and take some pics. I will have a poll to see who can tell me which did what.

Zombie Steve
10-10-2012, 12:10
Shoot a deer with a .357 magnum @ 1400 fps, and shoot one with a 1000 fps.147 gr. 9mm. You can't tell a difference in the wound paths, other than the .357 doesn't penetrate as well.

I will try to do this during hunting season and take some pics. I will have a poll to see who can tell me which did what.

Clearly, you aren't talking about equal bullet weights.

For all intents and purposes, they're the same diameter. Bullet weight being the same, the .357 mag holds a lot more powder...

http://www.sff.net/people/sanders/ammo.jpg

FWIW, getting 1,250 fps with a 158 grain bullet and a 4" revolver just isn't that difficult. I'm not even sure how you compare a 9mm to that.

dpadams6
10-10-2012, 12:39
"Damage" to jelly does not equal damage to flesh. Jelly is bouncy brittle. flesh is flexible. Handgun rounds punch a hole. Nothing more nothing less.

Shoot a deer with a .357 magnum @ 1400 fps, and shoot one with a 1000 fps.147 gr. 9mm. You can't tell a difference in the wound paths, other than the .357 doesn't penetrate as well.

I will try to do this during hunting season and take some pics. I will have a poll to see who can tell me which did what.
I look forward to your results.

uz2bUSMC
10-10-2012, 15:09
"Damage" to jelly does not equal damage to flesh. Jelly is bouncy brittle. flesh is flexible. Handgun rounds punch a hole. Nothing more nothing less.

Shoot a deer with a .357 magnum @ 1400 fps, and shoot one with a 1000 fps.147 gr. 9mm. You can't tell a difference in the wound paths, other than the .357 doesn't penetrate as well.

I will try to do this during hunting season and take some pics. I will have a poll to see who can tell me which did what.

Make sure it is the 125grn .357 and crank the speed up to about 1600. Then I'll have a look see.

WinterWizard
10-10-2012, 19:18
If you watch his videos you can start to pick up on certain trends. I notice bullets that achieve >1000 fps seem to cause more internal damage than bullets that achieve <1000 fps. The slower bullets seem to just punch a straight path and not "churn" up the gel.

Some of the Underwood Ammo 10mm offerings in the 1500-1600 fps range produce a damage path that looks similar (not the same) to a .223 damage path.

I think that velocity and bullet construction is playing a bigger role in the wounding abilities of these bullets than the actual size of the bullet.

And yet, in his test of the Speer Gold Dot 200gr. +P, he says he is "having some holy crap moments in his .45 testing."

His words.

Sadly, he's only tested a few legit .45 loads. The rest are all crappy, light-for-caliber low-end or outdated stuff. He needs to test some wicked, modern .45 loads.

But the truth is there are loads in 9mm, .40, .45 and 10mm that do a great job, and his tests show that. Don't drink the velocity kool-aid too hard. You'll choke.

Yankee2718
10-10-2012, 22:14
And yet, in his test of the Speer Gold Dot 200gr. +P, he says he is "having some holy crap moments in his .45 testing."

His words.

I think the only thing he is referring to is the size of the expanded bullet. I could be wrong, but the damage to the gel block from some of those rounds isn't remarkable.

I'm starting to think that velocity plays a bigger role than we originally thought.

Typically people accept that 2000 fps is the base velocity for damage caused by the temporary stretch cavity. I'm throwing that out, simply because it is difficult to measure. Cutting and tearing of the gel can be observed, somewhat measured.

Bullets impacting the gel around 1000 fps seem to be causing more tearing damage than slower bullets that seem to be pretty much cutting straight through the gel. The damage seems to increase again around 1300 fps. I'm very interested to see what the 1500 fps range produces. Some of the Underwood 10mm loads are knocking on the door step of rifle velocity.

Just so I'm clear, I'm not talking about any temporary cavity. I'm simply observing the actual disruption of the gel. I'm really looking forward to some heavy and fast 10mm tests. I'd also love to see Underwood load a 200 grain .45 ACP to 1150 +/- fps. I think the 10mm results will be interesting. (The Underwood stuff, not the light factory stuff)

JW1178
10-11-2012, 09:56
About higher velocity rounds; it kind of boils down to this: We can argue how it works, but the reality is that it does work. If velocity in handgun calibers didn't matter, then when they went from .38sp to .357mag they wouldn't have seen much difference of a result. 147gr 9mm's look great in gel, often out perform the 115-124's but the results aren't reflected in the real world. The .357sig is not much more than a 9mm in a necked down .40 case, however although not a true magnum, they do seem to be getting the job done. Speaking of .40, I wish LE would take another look at the G20SF with full power loads. Honestly, if you can control a G22, you can shoot a G20 just as well, if not better.

Honestly, if I was in charge, cops in these really dangerous urban enviroments would carry a SBR AR15's chambered in whatever round they perfer. Punk gangbangers want a war zone, we should give them one. There are places like Detroit where I think it's foolish to send LEO's into wish just a handgun.

Yankee2718
10-11-2012, 10:16
About higher velocity rounds; it kind of boils down to this: We can argue how it works, but the reality is that it does work. If velocity in handgun calibers didn't matter, then when they went from .38sp to .357mag they wouldn't have seen much difference of a result.

That seems to be greatly ignored by many people. I think the love affair American gun owners have with the .45 ACP/M1911 has impacted the train of thought. Many people look at the 45 as a legendary man stopper with mythical powers. People in America play into the mindset that bigger is always better.

Zombie Steve
10-11-2012, 10:57
That seems to be greatly ignored by many people. I think the love affair American gun owners have with the .45 ACP/M1911 has impacted the train of thought. Many people look at the 45 as a legendary man stopper with mythical powers. People in America play into the mindset that bigger is always better.

.45 auto is a legendary man stopper. It has an uncontroversial century behind it, and it's just getting better. I've never attributed mythical powers to it, but it works. Even does the job at around half the pressure of 9mm +p. In this case, throwing a big rock negates the need for supersonic speeds.

It's not the only round out there that can get the job done, but its reputation is well earned and the "love affair" makes all the sense in the world to me.

The light and fast vs. slow and heavy argument will never end. Pick the one you think is coolest and shoot it a lot.

:thumbsup:

dpadams6
10-11-2012, 11:18
That seems to be greatly ignored by many people. I think the love affair American gun owners have with the .45 ACP/M1911 has impacted the train of thought. Many people look at the 45 as a legendary man stopper with mythical powers. People in America play into the mindset that bigger is always better.
If two guys were going into battle against each other. One armed with say, 7 rounds of .45. And the other armed with say, 12 rounds of 357sig. That would be a no brainer which one I would take. 357sig ANY DAY. And I would like my chances.

PrecisionRifleman
10-11-2012, 13:25
Agreed

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PrecisionRifleman
10-11-2012, 13:28
10mm recoil really isn't that bad, and I see no reason. why it would be less accurate. My 10mm is more accurate than my 40 using equal bullet weights.

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JW1178
10-11-2012, 14:57
That seems to be greatly ignored by many people. I think the love affair American gun owners have with the .45 ACP/M1911 has impacted the train of thought. Many people look at the 45 as a legendary man stopper with mythical powers. People in America play into the mindset that bigger is always better.

Well, when speaking of the .45ACP, it has more than enough size and weight to make up for it's slower speed. However the .357sig has more than enough speed to make up for it's lack of size and weight.

4949shooter
10-11-2012, 18:44
I'm a fan of accuracy, speed, and penetration. This is my reason for going with a 155gr XTP handloaded in a 40S&W. The 155XTP has good velocity (1150-1200fps depending on load), it expands (not as much as some), and you get stellar penetration. I'm also getting more consistent, and excellent accuracy from my handloaded 155XTP's @ 1150fps (haven't tried higher velocity YET) than any other store bought whiz bang round that you can get at your LGS. TnOutDoors has tested the XTP bullet in GEL using the Hornady TAP load, and it performed impressively based on the criteria I look for in a handgun cartridge.

Hornady TAP FPD .40 S&W 155 gr JHP SIM-TEST w/denim - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwBckM2GQQ4)

I would like to see the 10mm version of this bad boy tested. 155 grains at 1270 (as chronographed by doc).

Yankee2718
10-11-2012, 22:35
.45 auto is a legendary man stopper. It has an uncontroversial century behind it, and it's just getting better. I've never attributed mythical powers to it, but it works. Even does the job at around half the pressure of 9mm +p. In this case, throwing a big rock negates the need for supersonic speeds.

It's not the only round out there that can get the job done, but its reputation is well earned and the "love affair" makes all the sense in the world to me.

The light and fast vs. slow and heavy argument will never end. Pick the one you think is coolest and shoot it a lot.

:thumbsup:
The 45 does have a history of stopping people. I make those comments tongue in cheek. However, many people, no matter what evidence there is to the contrary can't get past the "but its a 45" mentality. The 45 is a great round, no doubt. I like a lot of things about the 45. One downside to the 45 is the slow velocity the 230 grain loads produce. When the damage from a 357 Sig is compared to a 45, I see more damage from the 357. The 45 looks pretty and big, but the 357 seems to produce more damage.

Perhaps the whole thing is just a moot point, who knows. There will probably never be enough data available to determine any direct correlations to effect on target in relation to bullet size, weight and speed.

dpadams6
10-12-2012, 06:07
I would like to see the 10mm version of this bad boy tested. 155 grains at 1270 (as chronographed by doc).

Yes. I agree. Seems like this load would hold up very well at higher speeds and being its a controlled/slow expansion, would probably get the best of both worlds.

4949shooter
10-12-2012, 12:18
Yes. I agree. Seems like this load would hold up very well at higher speeds and being its a controlled/slow expansion, would probably get the best of both worlds.

That's what I am thinking.

Great minds think alike! :supergrin:

SCmasterblaster
10-12-2012, 13:49
I would like to see the 10mm version of this bad boy tested. 155 grains at 1270 (as chronographed by doc).

That must be one hard-hitting round! :cool:

clarkstoncz
10-12-2012, 14:04
I'd like to see him test a few DT 115 and 80 gr TAC-XPs in both 9mm+P and
.357 SIG.http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb26/czrami/DT-357%20SIG/ammo2.jpg

The Barnes X bullet needs no jacket or gimmicks for both adequate penetration and
perfect expansion.
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb26/czrami/DT-357%20SIG/ammo.jpg


If it were only cheaper, more people would be dumping conventional or bonded
JHPs.

Testing of the DT 155 gr. TAC-XP in 10mm would be interesting as well.
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb26/czrami/DOUBLE%20%20TAP/DT%2010MM%20-2012/10MM-1.jpg
The only problem being that MOST people can't control a full power 10mm
like they can with most any .357 SIG load on the market.

10mm use among police is rare these days.. with the majority of the street data is from years
ago when the TEN had heavier bullets.

As a former 10mm owner (10 years) I really like it, but shoot the smaller framed .357 Glocks much better due to less recoil.
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb26/czrami/DT-357%20SIG/ammoprove.jpg
I think the testing so far from TN9 is interesting but would like to see it more balanced.

SCmasterblaster
10-12-2012, 14:08
Lots of pictures here. :supergrin:

4949shooter
10-12-2012, 15:51
That must be one hard-hitting round! :cool:
Hopefully TN will get around to it.

clarkstoncz
10-12-2012, 22:29
I'd send him a few rounds of (each load shown) of my ammo, but having to ship through UPS is a real quagmire.

4949shooter
10-13-2012, 02:36
I'd send him a few rounds of (each load shown) of my ammo, but having to ship through UPS is a real quagmire.

He has said he won't accept rounds from people anyway. Everything he tests he purchases himself.

Yankee2718
10-13-2012, 07:30
I want to see him test the 155 grain XTP/Gold Dot HP from Underwood in .40S&W. The round is listing at 1300fps. That's close to factory 10mm velocity.

uz2bUSMC
10-13-2012, 08:59
I want to see him test the 155 grain XTP/Gold Dot HP from Underwood in .40S&W. The round is listing at 1300fps. That's close to factory 10mm velocity.

I'm pretty sure that everyone will get to see the tests they want to see most. He is testing at a pretty fast pace. To me it seems as though all of the spare time I would guess he has is all nearly spent on his tests.

4949shooter
10-13-2012, 10:45
I'm pretty sure that everyone will get to see the tests they want to see most. He is testing at a pretty fast pace. To me it seems as though all of the spare time I would guess he has is all nearly spent on his tests.

Yeah I almost feel bad for him.

PrecisionRifleman
10-13-2012, 11:53
I would like to see the 10mm version of this bad boy tested. 155 grains at 1270 (as chronographed by doc).

I can get 1300fps with the 155XTP using a Max load of longshot in 40s&w according to the Hornady manual. Im going to test the longshot next week for accuracy. In the 10mm you can go faster, but 1300fps is really smoking from a 40. with a 155gr.

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4949shooter
10-13-2012, 12:24
I can get 1300fps with the 155XTP using a Max load of longshot in 40s&w according to the Hornady manual. Im going to test the longshot next week for accuracy. In the 10mm you can go faster, but 1300fps is really smoking from a 40. with a 155gr.

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Rifleman,

i agree. Having corresponded with Hornady regarding their 10mm ammo, it's obvious they don't want to load it too hot. They are being conservative with their loads, which is no doubt a liability issue for them. 155 at 1300 would be great!

SCmasterblaster
10-13-2012, 14:20
I can get 1300fps with the 155XTP using a Max load of longshot in 40s&w according to the Hornady manual. Im going to test the longshot next week for accuracy. In the 10mm you can go faster, but 1300fps is really smoking from a 40. with a 155gr.

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Do you use reloads for CCW? I don't.

Zombie Steve
10-13-2012, 18:16
Do you use reloads for CCW? I don't.

I never recommend people use reloads for their carry ammunition, because for all I know, their reloads suck... but it works for me.

:whistling:

WiskyT
10-13-2012, 19:20
Rifleman,

i agree. Having corresponded with Hornady regarding their 10mm ammo, it's obvious they don't want to load it too hot. They are being conservative with their loads, which is no doubt a liability issue for them. 155 at 1300 would be great!

XTP's don't need a lot of velocity to expand. They seem to have a fragile nose that opens easily. Their limited expansion comes from the stiff core using a harder lead alloy. This gives them a good combination of reliable expansion and deep penetration without extreme velocities. They aren't the only bullet capable of this, but they are one of them for sure. Most Hornady loads are loaded at modest velocities because the company doesn't see any advantage to driving them faster.

Take their 124 9mm load. It runs about 1100fps. They can easily be driven to 1250 with a non+P load of Unique. I've loaded and chrono'd them and my numbers match Stephen A. Camp's results, so it's no special ragged edge loading to get that velocity with that bullet. I'm sure many other powders would give the same results. So Hornady could very easily drive the bullet 150fps faster without any liability issues, they just don't see the need for it.

PrecisionRifleman
10-13-2012, 19:29
Do you use reloads for CCW? I don't.

I have been carrying handloaded 155XTPs with BlueDot @ 1150fps. Very accurate. More accurate than my Golddot 180's so I switched a few weeks ago.

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unit1069
10-13-2012, 19:30
Take their 124 9mm load. It runs about 1100fps. They can easily be driven to 1250 with a non+P load of Unique. I've loaded and chrono'd them and my numbers match Stephen A. Camp's results, so it's no special ragged edge loading to get that velocity with that bullet. I'm sure many other powders would give the same results. So Hornady could very easily drive the bullet 150fps faster without any liability issues, they just don't see the need for it.

A couple of other experienced GT members who used to post here verified that the 9mm XTP bullet retained its integrity at the velocity you mention, and a lot of other contributors have attested to the durability of this particular Hornady bullet.

I'd really like to see tnoutdoors9 test the Fiocchi 115-grain Extrema XTP round that one GT member chronoed at an honest 1230 fps. I carry this in my small CCW pistol and although I can't vouch for any statistics I can say it's the most accurate round I've found for this pistol.

SCmasterblaster
10-13-2012, 19:42
I have been carrying handloaded 155XTPs with BlueDot @ 1150fps. Very accurate. More accurate than my Golddot 180's so I switched a few weeks ago.

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BlueDot is a great powder! :cool:

4949shooter
10-14-2012, 04:40
XTP's don't need a lot of velocity to expand. They seem to have a fragile nose that opens easily. Their limited expansion comes from the stiff core using a harder lead alloy. This gives them a good combination of reliable expansion and deep penetration without extreme velocities. They aren't the only bullet capable of this, but they are one of them for sure. Most Hornady loads are loaded at modest velocities because the company doesn't see any advantage to driving them faster.

Take their 124 9mm load. It runs about 1100fps. They can easily be driven to 1250 with a non+P load of Unique. I've loaded and chrono'd them and my numbers match Stephen A. Camp's results, so it's no special ragged edge loading to get that velocity with that bullet. I'm sure many other powders would give the same results. So Hornady could very easily drive the bullet 150fps faster without any liability issues, they just don't see the need for it.

You are probably right, Wisky. Same with Corbon 10mm ammo, I believe.

SCmasterblaster
10-14-2012, 12:15
You are probably right, Wisky. Same with Corbon 10mm ammo, I believe.

I fully endorse Corbon ammo. :supergrin:

WinterWizard
10-15-2012, 12:59
Well, when speaking of the .45ACP, it has more than enough size and weight to make up for it's slower speed. However the .357sig has more than enough speed to make up for it's lack of size and weight.

I can add about 5 people in this thread to the list of people perpetuating the myth that .45 acp is big and slow. It has benefited from modern ammo advancements just like every other caliber. It just ain't slow any more. Slower than most calibers, yes. But not slow.

165 gr. @ 1225 fps
185 gr @ 1200 fps
200 gr @ 1080 fps
230 gr @ 1000 fps

ABNAK
10-15-2012, 15:34
I can add about 5 people in this thread to the list of people perpetuating the myth that .45 acp is big and slow. It has benefited from modern ammo advancements just like every other caliber. It just ain't slow any more. Slower than most calibers, yes. But not slow.

165 gr. @ 1225 fps
185 gr @ 1200 fps
200 gr @ 1080 fps
230 gr @ 1000 fps

Those gotta be handloads. If not, who makes them?

WinterWizard
10-15-2012, 16:39
Those gotta be handloads. If not, who makes them?

Corbon Pow'R Ball (165gr @ 1225 fps)
Underwood Ammo (185gr @ 1200 fps)
Speer Gold Dot (200gr @ 1080 fps)
Underwood Ammo (230gr @ 1000 fps)

If you are still under the impression that all .45 acp loads are 230gr @ 850 fps, you probably need JustForMen beard dyes. :rofl::rofl::rofl:

In addition, there are the Hornady Tap 200gr @ 1050 fps and a slew of 185gr offerings on the market in the 1100-1150 fps range.

Sorry, reality strikes again...

bdcremer
10-15-2012, 17:37
A couple years back tnoutdoors9 tested the Corbon DPX 115 grain +p 9mm in his old style of wet pack in jugs. I would like to see him retest this round in gel. I will say, out of a G17 the 115 DPX does bark pretty well.

SCmasterblaster
10-15-2012, 18:45
I want to see him test the 155 grain XTP/Gold Dot HP from Underwood in .40S&W. The round is listing at 1300fps. That's close to factory 10mm velocity.

I'd like to examine a fired case from this load. The primer must be flattened. :shocked:

Yankee2718
10-16-2012, 07:30
Corbon Pow'R Ball (165gr @ 1225 fps)
Underwood Ammo (185gr @ 1200 fps)
Speer Gold Dot (200gr @ 1080 fps)
Underwood Ammo (230gr @ 1000 fps)

If you are still under the impression that all .45 acp loads are 230gr @ 850 fps, you probably need JustForMen beard dyes. :rofl::rofl::rofl:

In addition, there are the Hornady Tap 200gr @ 1050 fps and a slew of 185gr offerings on the market in the 1100-1150 fps range.

Sorry, reality strikes again...

Hornady Ammo never makes claimed velocity. The only factory ammo that can be considered fast is the speer 200 grain load.

Still, the majority of loads available for the round are 230 grain loads ranging from 880-950 fps.

ABNAK
10-16-2012, 10:35
Corbon Pow'R Ball (165gr @ 1225 fps)
Underwood Ammo (185gr @ 1200 fps)
Speer Gold Dot (200gr @ 1080 fps)
Underwood Ammo (230gr @ 1000 fps)

If you are still under the impression that all .45 acp loads are 230gr @ 850 fps, you probably need JustForMen beard dyes. :rofl::rofl::rofl:

In addition, there are the Hornady Tap 200gr @ 1050 fps and a slew of 185gr offerings on the market in the 1100-1150 fps range.

Sorry, reality strikes again...

Here's a little reality for ya: gonna carry a 5" 1911 for CCW? The 5" barrel is the industry standard for testing .45ACP. Start getting into the more CCW-friendly platforms and you won't see those velocities.

I chrono'd HST 230gr +P at a little over 900fps from an XDM with a 3.8" barrel so I'm well aware of what is possible.

WinterWizard
10-16-2012, 18:16
Here's a little reality for ya: gonna carry a 5" 1911 for CCW? The 5" barrel is the industry standard for testing .45ACP. Start getting into the more CCW-friendly platforms and you won't see those velocities.

I chrono'd HST 230gr +P at a little over 900fps from an XDM with a 3.8" barrel so I'm well aware of what is possible.

Who said anything about CCW'ing? This thread is not about that. And the HST is NOT one of the rounds I listed. :wavey:

But by the by, I would and HAVE carried a 1911. I don't own one currently, but would have no problems carrying one again.

WinterWizard
10-16-2012, 18:19
Hornady Ammo never makes claimed velocity. The only factory ammo that can be considered fast is the speer 200 grain load.

Still, the majority of loads available for the round are 230 grain loads ranging from 880-950 fps.

Same applies to every other caliber, as well (not reaching advertised velocities). And sometimes, ammo makers actually exceed advertised velocities in some cases, like Underwood.

But I apologize. Only an idiot doesn't know that 1200 fps is only quick if it's a 9mm. 1200 fps in a .45acp is slow. What was I thinking...

SCmasterblaster
10-16-2012, 18:49
Here's a little reality for ya: gonna carry a 5" 1911 for CCW? The 5" barrel is the industry standard for testing .45ACP. Start getting into the more CCW-friendly platforms and you won't see those velocities.

I chrono'd HST 230gr +P at a little over 900fps from an XDM with a 3.8" barrel so I'm well aware of what is possible.

I used to carry a M1911A1 .45 pistol - that is until the Glock 17 came along. :cool:

ABNAK
10-16-2012, 21:46
Who said anything about CCW'ing? This thread is not about that. True, but I tend to think in terms of ballistics for a defense gun, in my case a CCW piece.

And the HST is NOT one of the rounds I listed. Should have, 'cause the +P version *should* approach 1000fps from a 5" barrel.

Yankee2718
10-16-2012, 23:32
Same applies to every other caliber, as well (not reaching advertised velocities). And sometimes, ammo makers actually exceed advertised velocities in some cases, like Underwood.

But I apologize. Only an idiot doesn't know that 1200 fps is only quick if it's a 9mm. 1200 fps in a .45acp is slow. What was I thinking...

It is fast. My only point was that most 45 loads are 230 grain loads because they are the most popular and sell the best.

WinterWizard
10-17-2012, 00:53
True, but I tend to think in terms of ballistics for a defense gun, in my case a CCW piece.

Well, all calibers suffer from velocity loss from shorter barrels. Except 9mm of course. 9mm actually gains 50 fps for every inch of barrel loss. :rofl:

Should have, 'cause the +P version *should* approach 1000fps from a 5" barrel.

I believe the 230gr +P HST is rated at 950 fps from a 5" barrel. So a realistic expectation is probably 925 fps.

ABNAK
10-17-2012, 01:57
I believe the 230gr +P HST is rated at 950 fps from a 5" barrel. So a realistic expectation is probably 925 fps.


I looked at my data and I got 918fps average from the XDM's 3.8" barrel. Another 1.2" of length *should* kick it up well over 950fps but it is a heavy-for-caliber load so they don't lose/gain as much with barrel length changes as the lighter and faster ones

cowboy1964
10-17-2012, 06:33
I can add about 5 people in this thread to the list of people perpetuating the myth that .45 acp is big and slow. It has benefited from modern ammo advancements just like every other caliber. It just ain't slow any more. Slower than most calibers, yes. But not slow.

165 gr. @ 1225 fps
185 gr @ 1200 fps
200 gr @ 1080 fps
230 gr @ 1000 fps

Quite a kick at those weights and velocities, no doubt. I've shot Gold Dot 200+P and I do not like it at all.

SCmasterblaster
10-17-2012, 09:26
I can add about 5 people in this thread to the list of people perpetuating the myth that .45 acp is big and slow. It has benefited from modern ammo advancements just like every other caliber. It just ain't slow any more. Slower than most calibers, yes. But not slow.

165 gr. @ 1225 fps
185 gr @ 1200 fps
200 gr @ 1080 fps
230 gr @ 1000 fps

A 230 gr .45 ACP at 1000 FPS? Who makes this overload?

WinterWizard
10-17-2012, 14:56
A 230 gr .45 ACP at 1000 FPS? Who makes this overload?

Underwood Ammo. Only 10 fps faster than the Winchester Ranger-T 230gr +P @ 990 fps.

Even in the hottest +P loads, .45acp feels soft to me. More of a thud than a sharp snap.

SCmasterblaster
10-17-2012, 17:52
If I ever have to CCW a .45 ACP again, I'll know where to go for ammo!

1smoothredneck
10-18-2012, 19:02
Don't discount temporary stretch cavitation(TSC) as being irrelevant. The .357 magnum with 125 grain JHP earned it's title "King of the Street" by putting bad guys down like the hammer of thor when put just about anyplace important. I for one give much credit to the awesome TSC of this round. In my mind, for a civilian, much too much import is given to the FBI criteria. Maybe many years ago when on the job, I'd have needed more barrier penetration, but not now(Even though I felt very well armed with my magnum wheelie with Federal 125 gr. JHPs, which are a bit light on penetration according to the feds.)
Be Safe

JD_19x9
10-20-2012, 08:56
Awesome ballistic testing from tnoutdoors9, love those videos. I was impressed by his testing of the Federal HST rounds for self defense and have switched to carrying them in all calibers.

All with standard pressure
Summer - 9mm - 147gr
Autumn/Spring - .40 - 180gr
Winter - .45 - 230gr

I like the quality of the ammo and the performance/accuracy I got while testing them...

HST .45acp 230gr from 5" barrel:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=iWW2Y-IZpyE

SCmasterblaster
10-20-2012, 12:30
Don't discount temporary stretch cavitation(TSC) as being irrelevant. The .357 magnum with 125 grain JHP earned it's title "King of the Street" by putting bad guys down like the hammer of thor when put just about anyplace important. I for one give much credit to the awesome TSC of this round. In my mind, for a civilian, much too much import is given to the FBI criteria. Maybe many years ago when on the job, I'd have needed more barrier penetration, but not now(Even though I felt very well armed with my magnum wheelie with Federal 125 gr. JHPs, which are a bit light on penetration according to the feds.)
Be Safe

I wonder what barrel length has been used in all of those .357 magnum police shootings? 4-inch?