Army to Congress: Thanks, but no tanks [Archive] - Glock Talk

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muscogee
10-10-2012, 09:34
http://security.blogs.cnn.com/2012/10/09/army-to-congress-thanks-but-no-tanks/?hpt=hp_c2

Eisenhower warned us about this.

tsmo1066
10-10-2012, 09:39
Un_Freakin_Believable!

:faint:

Dennis in MA
10-10-2012, 09:46
I'll help - I'll buy one. $20K delivered! I won't even cut it up for scrap. I'll keep it in the front yard.

Brucev
10-10-2012, 09:59
That's the sort of thinking that keeps putting .40/dollar borrowed money in the pocket of multinational corporations whose loyalty is only and always to their profit line and not the American people. Simple answer. Cut them off. Problem. The congress wants to keep buying votes by spending money on the dod.

KalashniKEV
10-10-2012, 10:04
We don't even have room for more M1s in APS's.

I would keep the lines running and produce M1A1M export models.

For better or worse, our continued support of Israel and the recent "biggest arms deal in history" with the house of Saud has created an arms race in SWA.

There is an oil-rich third leg to the stool that would love to get their hands on some M1 tanks...

:whistling:

(and I would love to get some $1 gasoline!)

series1811
10-10-2012, 10:14
What its reporters found was General Dynamics campaign contributions given to lawmakers at key times, such as around congressional hearings, on whether or not to build more tanks.

"We aren't saying there's vote buying" said Aaron Metha, one of the report's authors. "We are saying it's true in pretty much all aspects of politics - but especially the defense industry. It's almost impossible to separate out the money that is going into elections and the special interests. And what we found was the direct spike in the giving around certain important dates that were tied to votes."

Pease said General Dynamics is bipartisan in its giving and there is nothing suspicious in the timing of its donations to members of the House and Senate. The giving is tied to when fundraisers are held in Washington - which is also when Congress is in session, he said.

We will never have budget reform until we have campaign finance reform first.

Andy W
10-10-2012, 10:20
We don't even have room for more M1s in APS's.

I would keep the lines running and produce M1A1M export models.

For better or worse, our continued support of Israel and the recent "biggest arms deal in history" with the house of Saud has created an arms race in SWA.

There is an oil-rich third leg to the stool that would love to get their hands on some M1 tanks...

:whistling:

(and I would love to get some $1 gasoline!)

One of the reasons we are selling all these weapons to Saudi Arabia is to counter-balance Iran, which is trying to assert itself as a regional power.

Paul53
10-10-2012, 16:38
Correct me if I'm wrong (as if I need to say that here) but I was under the impression that the M1 and it's variants have not been built new in some years. Beaten up M1's are torn apart in the South, Alabama I believe, then sent to the storage mentioned. The hulls are refurbished and brought up to the newest standards as needed by the Army. The show I watched said all newly rebuilt tanks are then tested in the desert here at Fort Bliss and White Sands Missile Range before going to their final unit. Hence the sign to the left. They are impressive doing 40+ MPH across the desert. They always get the right of way.

"Ah, commander to driver, what was that noise?"
"Sir, I believe that was a Toyota."

KalashniKEV
10-10-2012, 18:32
One of the reasons we are selling all these weapons to Saudi Arabia is to counter-balance Iran, which is trying to assert itself as a regional power.

If Mitt Romney wins and keeps his promise to arm al Qaeda with heavy weapons, don't you think that will provide even more reason to arm the pants wearing people of the region?

Averageman
10-10-2012, 19:04
Correct me if I'm wrong (as if I need to say that here) but I was under the impression that the M1 and it's variants have not been built new in some years. Beaten up M1's are torn apart in the South, Alabama I believe, then sent to the storage mentioned. The hulls are refurbished and brought up to the newest standards as needed by the Army. The show I watched said all newly rebuilt tanks are then tested in the desert here at Fort Bliss and White Sands Missile Range before going to their final unit. Hence the sign to the left. They are impressive doing 40+ MPH across the desert. They always get the right of way.

"Ah, commander to driver, what was that noise?"
"Sir, I believe that was a Toyota."
The issue is a bit more complex than that article would lead you to believe.
There is a Tank plant in Lima Ohio and it is being shut down. The Tank Plant may not ever be able to be reopened if it closes as the EPA, OSHA and a room full of other Alphabet agencies will become involved if the close and attempt to reopen.
There is a rebuild sight in Anniston Alabama that running at full speed can refurbish probobly rebuild a platoon of M1 tanks a week in one older variant.
Once a Tank leaves Lima or Anniston it is delivered to another location (I wont mention where, but it isn't White Sands, unless it is a specific and unique test being done.) where it is taken through its paces and given a Q/A, Q/C process that takes it down to it's absolute nuts and bolts before a Soldier ever sees it. It is then delivered to the customer and again Q/A Q/Ced and accpeted by it's gaining unit.
Lima is in my opinion a National Asset that needs to stay open in order to maintain its capabilites and a trained work force, if not for other M1 tanks, but fighting vehicles.
The funny thing about a Tank that weighs in excess of 70 tons is that it wears out, sometimes even faster; just sitting still. They need constant maintanance just to remain servicable. A National site to store and maintain these Tanks would be a big plus.
Now are we going to be fighting a Tank War anytime soon? I don't have a way to see in to the future, but if my Kid was going to be manning an M1 Tank I would want the newest and best.
The newest and the best are light years ahead of the M1 Tanks issued in the early 80's to Units in Germany. We need the best to serve our Soldiers.

RonS
10-10-2012, 19:20
Being in manufacturing I can tell you, if you lose skilled workers you don't replace them. Over a period of years you might recreate that capability, but once you break the chain of knowledge and skill it is gone. There is a culture to manufacturing complex products or simple products in mass quantities. So many interdependent factors, supplier chains, design, manufacturing and QA knowledge. Plus as someone said the infrastructure. You don't build a plant like that overnight. One day we are going to wake up and be unable to build a car or ariplane or tank without the good will of the Chinese because they will have undercut too many of our suppliers of basic products.

SunsetMan
10-10-2012, 21:33
Being in manufacturing I can tell you, if you lose skilled workers you don't replace them. Over a period of years you might recreate that capability, but once you break the chain of knowledge and skill it is gone. There is a culture to manufacturing complex products or simple products in mass quantities. So many interdependent factors, supplier chains, design, manufacturing and QA knowledge. Plus as someone said the infrastructure. You don't build a plant like that overnight. One day we are going to wake up and be unable to build a car or ariplane or tank without the good will of the Chinese because they will have undercut too many of our suppliers of basic products.

Agreed. I was in aircraft manufacturing for 20 years. There is an incredible amount of tribal knowledge that is lost when a line is shut down.

HexHead
10-11-2012, 04:51
Historically, the Generals are always preparing to fight the last war again. In this case, it would be a guerilla war against insurgents with small teams. Russia is getting strong again, the Fulva Gap may regain importance. Then there's China.

professorpinki
10-11-2012, 06:39
Historically, the Generals are always preparing to fight the last war again. In this case, it would be a guerilla war against insurgents with small teams. Russia is getting strong again, the Fulva Gap may regain importance. Then there's China.
Our defense spending is greater than the next 12 countries combined.

series1811
10-11-2012, 07:26
Being in manufacturing I can tell you, if you lose skilled workers you don't replace them. Over a period of years you might recreate that capability, but once you break the chain of knowledge and skill it is gone. There is a culture to manufacturing complex products or simple products in mass quantities. So many interdependent factors, supplier chains, design, manufacturing and QA knowledge. Plus as someone said the infrastructure. You don't build a plant like that overnight. One day we are going to wake up and be unable to build a car or ariplane or tank without the good will of the Chinese because they will have undercut too many of our suppliers of basic products.

That is a good argument for building things we may not need right now. The decision to build the Seawolf submarine, while waiting for the Virginia class to be built, to keep from losing skilled submarine builders, who would have been hard to replace, did make sense, too.

raven11
10-11-2012, 07:31
Our defense spending is greater than the next 12 countries combined.

Which relies on other countries honestly reporting their numbers
China for example has nuclear weapons. re-equipped with new assault rifles for their million man army. expanded their navy with cruisers ,submarines, carriers. Somehow only spends 2.1% of GDP

When we spend the most but don't want to replace our assault rifles ,pistols , and now refurbished tanks due to cost

Averageman
10-11-2012, 07:37
Historically, the Generals are always preparing to fight the last war again. In this case, it would be a guerilla war against insurgents with small teams. Russia is getting strong again, the Fulva Gap may regain importance. Then there's China.
Fulva or Fulda Gap?
I will be Fighting at the Vulva Gap later tonight hopefully.
Anyway, we own this stuff and it is all maintainable, sustainable and rebuildable and a viable platform for future development.
Letting it go to waste would be ashame and most all of it could not be reused for much of anything else because of the D.U. level of the metals.
We claimed for years that we held an unobtainable weapons advantage against our enemies, Now we have Chinese Aircraftcarriers,....
I think there is a very intelligent middle ground that we could find here, but that article shows no part of it.

Harper
10-11-2012, 07:51
We really need to get over this idea that every dollar spent on the military is sacred. A large percentage seem to think it's un-american to mention spending cuts.

hogfish
10-11-2012, 08:10
We really need to get over this idea that every dollar spent on the military is sacred. A large percentage seem to think it's un-american to mention spending cuts.

Not even Rand Paul has been able to produce a reaction from the pro military complex crowd, but gets completely ignored instead. What makes you think you will not be ignored here? :tongueout:

:wavey:

Get ready for the recently proposed Syrian Spring. :faint:

Harper
10-11-2012, 10:26
Not even Rand Paul has been able to produce a reaction from the pro military complex crowd, but gets completely ignored instead. What makes you think you will not be ignored here? :tongueout:


Oh, I know.

boone10
10-11-2012, 10:53
If Mitt Romney wins and keeps his promise to arm al Qaeda with heavy weapons, don't you think that will provide even more reason to arm the pants wearing people of the region?

I musta missed the "arm the terrorist" speech.

As the saying goes, "If you wish for peace--prepare for war". I agree that major scrutinization needs to occur when it comes to yearly military expenditures, but if we don't get back the the "World's biggest badass status" very soon--there won't be any semblance of the US to defend.

MrGlock21
10-11-2012, 21:22
I'm sure there are some Mexicans who what some tanks. Faster and more furious.

AK_Stick
10-11-2012, 21:24
Fulva or Fulda Gap?
I will be Fighting at the Vulva Gap later tonight hopefully.
Anyway, we own this stuff and it is all maintainable, sustainable and rebuildable and a viable platform for future development.
Letting it go to waste would be ashame and most all of it could not be reused for much of anything else because of the D.U. level of the metals.
We claimed for years that we held an unobtainable weapons advantage against our enemies, Now we have Chinese Aircraftcarriers,....
I think there is a very intelligent middle ground that we could find here, but that article shows no part of it.



Simply because they fielded an aging Russian aircraft carrier, does not mean that they've somehow managed to negate our weapons advantage.


Do they even have a full naval air wing, (or even partial) operational/combat ready?

MulletLoad
10-11-2012, 21:33
Agreed. I was in aircraft manufacturing for 20 years. There is an incredible amount of tribal knowledge that is lost when a line is shut down.

Maybe a GoPro mounted on the head of every Lima tank building employee for a year should do the trick ;)

tehan2
10-12-2012, 07:55
It's not just tanks, it's the .gov mindset.

Years ago I sold a product to the .gov (what the product is is irrelevant) and I was in the storage room of a few facilities every month. They had enough product to last them 5 years in inventory but would "load up" every month with more product.

When I tried to tell the purchaser(s) that they should hold off for a while, I'd get the same response.
"it's in the budget, if I don't spend it, I'll loose it from the budget"

One of the facilities was closed and they had enough of our products to last 10 years at their old consumption rates. I offered to bring the product to another facility (a VA hospital that struggled with their budget) and was told that they couldn't transfer product. It was instead sold at a .gov auction for a loss of hundreds of thousands of dollars in value

8-Ball
10-12-2012, 09:09
It's not just tanks, it's the .gov mindset.

Years ago I sold a product to the .gov (what the product is is irrelevant) and I was in the storage room of a few facilities every month. They had enough product to last them 5 years in inventory but would "load up" every month with more product.

When I tried to tell the purchaser(s) that they should hold off for a while, I'd get the same response.
"it's in the budget, if I don't spend it, I'll loose it from the budget"

One of the facilities was closed and they had enough of our products to last 10 years at their old consumption rates. I offered to bring the product to another facility (a VA hospital that struggled with their budget) and was told that they couldn't transfer product. It was instead sold at a .gov auction for a loss of hundreds of thousands of dollars in value

And it happens every day, with pretty much every product.

Big Bird
10-12-2012, 09:10
The only people hoping the Fulda gap becomes important again are in the 11th ACR.

The Fulda gap is in the middle of the unified Germany...Germany's new frontier is on the Czech and Polish borders.:rofl::rofl:

mgs
10-12-2012, 09:45
it's not just tanks, it's the .gov mindset.

Years ago i sold a product to the .gov (what the product is is irrelevant) and i was in the storage room of a few facilities every month. They had enough product to last them 5 years in inventory but would "load up" every month with more product.

When i tried to tell the purchaser(s) that they should hold off for a while, i'd get the same response.
"it's in the budget, if i don't spend it, i'll loose it from the budget"

one of the facilities was closed and they had enough of our products to last 10 years at their old consumption rates. I offered to bring the product to another facility (a va hospital that struggled with their budget) and was told that they couldn't transfer product. It was instead sold at a .gov auction for a loss of hundreds of thousands of dollars in value

That is the problem!

frizz
10-12-2012, 10:07
According to www.fredoneverything.net there is a fighter plane that the Aif Force does not want but is being forced on them by Congress as payback to defense contractors.

lunarspeak
10-12-2012, 10:14
not tot get to off topic but some of you think to little of china,,its like you still picture these guys wearing PJ's an sandals...they are better equiped,better trained then they have ever been...

will they ever have the power projection that the US does?? since thier building ships at will with no way for anyone to stop it..i can see it in a few decades....but also remember that asia and europe can be accessed by land.

and you can sit here and rattle on about our training our tech and our allies, but a war with china will make what happend in iraq look like a cake walk..

just because iraq took just a few weeks to take and a bunch of civies that were given old AKs were the majority of the iraqs fighting, dont use that to gauge what a conflict with china would be like

8-Ball
10-12-2012, 10:31
That is the problem!

But there's another problem.

The problem happens when the next fiscal year rolls around and demand for, or the use of the product goes up. If you didn't spend all of the money set aside last year then you don't have the money this year to meet the demands for that product.