A question all of us here should have an opinion on: Doc Holiday [Archive] - Glock Talk

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vrex
10-10-2012, 11:54
Okay, so as many of us approach, or are in middle age, I KNOW I am not the only movie fan who still thinks about the iconic representations of Doc Holiday from the early 90's In the films "Tombstone" and "Wyatt Earp"

So whos performance was better...Kilmer or Quaid? Yes, they were set in two very different films, but the performances were both the highlight of each, respectively.

I will say this, when I was younger, it was Kilmer, as I get older....Quaid

Kilmer was a more theatrical and glamorous portrayal, while Quaid was more gritty, ragged, and real.

Either way, my favorite lines from each:

Kilmer:

Creek: Damnit Doc you ought to be in bed, why the hell you doin' this?
DOC: Wyatt Earp is my friend
Creek: Hell, I got lots o' friends

DOC: I don't.


Quaid:
Earp: Not everyone who knows you hates you.
DOC: I know it ain't always easy bein' my friend....but I'll BE THERE when you need me.

JLB768
10-10-2012, 11:58
Kilmer

series1811
10-10-2012, 12:00
I vote Kilmer. From the histories I have read of Holliday, he was a little bit of a smartass, and was in more than one scrape because of his unappreciated, but biting, wit. :supergrin:

Kilmer definitely nailed that part.

And, I'm betting he was likable, as a lawman like Earp wouldn't have associated with him as a criminal without some other good reason like that.

chpullen
10-10-2012, 12:00
Kilmer hands down, but this thread makes me want to watch Quaid's movie but it's so long.

skinny99
10-10-2012, 12:02
It is still Kilmer for me. I believe it is one of the greatest performances by an actor. It may not be accurate but he makes you fear, respect, pity and care about him all at the same time. Very tough to do.

I make this statement and don't like Kilmer. I think Quaid is much cooler. But Kilmer killed it.

Too many great quotes but I like: I'm your huckleberry

series1811
10-10-2012, 12:05
It is still Kilmer for me. I believe it is one of the greatest performances by an actor. It may not be accurate but he makes you fear, respect, pity and care about him all at the same time. Very tough to do.



I think so, too.

Merlin40
10-10-2012, 12:28
I gotta love one of the scenes in which one of the Clantons (I think) said to Kilmer, "You are so drunk, you probably see two of me". Kilmer replied, "That's OK....I have two guns...one for each of you"...It just don't get better than that

eruby
10-10-2012, 12:43
Frederic F'ing Chopin FTW!

CLoft239
10-10-2012, 12:56
Kilmer gets my vote

Sent from the Titanic. I named my phone "The Titanic" so when I plug it into the computer it says "The Titanic is syncing".

skew12
10-10-2012, 13:00
Definitely Kilmer.

RCP
10-10-2012, 13:26
Another vote for Kilmer

NeverMore1701
10-10-2012, 13:41
I have no opinion on the subject, and do not care.

seanmac45
10-10-2012, 13:45
Val Kilmer made that role his forever in my not so humble opinion.

Bren
10-10-2012, 14:04
Kilmer. Not even close.

SC Tiger
10-10-2012, 14:04
Not sure. Kilmer portraid Holliday more like a gunslinger, and he was, as I understand it, more of the sneaky, underestimated, don't-mess-with-me types. IIRC Quaid had him more in that role.

I thought Tombstone was a better movie and I did love the shootout with Ringo.

"Got no quarrel with you, Holliday"

"I beg to differ. We began a game that we never got to finish. Play for blood. Remember?"

Bren
10-10-2012, 14:05
I have no opinion on the subject, and do not care.

And you took the time to share your pride in that.:rofl: Are you one of the guys who always pops into fast food threads to say how you never eat that stuff?

Dragoon44
10-10-2012, 14:07
Anyone but Kirk Douglas.

:rofl:

Berto
10-10-2012, 14:09
Kilmer made it more fun, but I supect Quaid was more a true portrayal.

RenoF250
10-10-2012, 14:17
Definitely Kilmer for me. I cannot even watch the other movie. Not because it is bad just because it is not "right" to me.

Tombstone fights for 1st on my movie list with Man on Fire.

"Your a daisy if you do."

JBnTX
10-10-2012, 14:20
Val Kilmer was the best Doc Holiday.

He's also one of the most under rated actors in Hollywood.

..

Dragoon44
10-10-2012, 14:47
Kurt Russell nailed Wyatt as well.

ron59
10-10-2012, 15:11
Kilmer.
Kilmer.
Kilmer.

Totally rocked that roll. I'm 53, and him playing that character is one of my top 5 all time favorites.

8-Ball
10-10-2012, 15:17
Kilmer.

GreenDrake
10-10-2012, 15:20
Why Johnny Ringo, you look like someone just walked over your grave"

Kilmer, by a long shot. I need to watch Tombstone again tonight.

"That's just my game"

Hummer
10-10-2012, 15:28
Val Kilmer was a superb and quintessential Doc Holliday. I doubt anyone will ever do it better.



Even so, a friend of mine is also superb as a Doc Holliday portrayalist with nearly 20 years experience and more than 1500 acting performances. Bob Boyle (http://oldwestactors.com/biorboyle.html) knows and can cite the life, history and words of Doc Holliday inside and out.

Bob has also developed one of the most extensive online references to the history, stories, accounts and photographs of the old west, called The Old West Daily Reader (http://oldwestdailyreader.com/). It is very entertaining and truly awesome in it's depth and scope.

Doc Holliday, or Bob as I know him, is a true gun guy, a shootist and big game hunter. Last weekend we shared our gun collections and stories. "Doc" brought out his original examples of Doc Holliday's derringer, fast draw Colt, and double barreled shotgun.

If you want to learn more about the real Doc Holliday, Wyatt Earp, Virgil Earp along with original photographs and articles, you should check out The Old West Daily Reader (http://oldwestdailyreader.com/).

http://oldwestactors.com/rboyle/picts/bobgunlarge.jpg

countrygun
10-10-2012, 15:31
I grew up on "Old West", "True West", and "Frontier Times" magazines which were publications of well researched and sometimes directly anecdotal articles from the era. I was lucky enough to get a start at writing by having some of my work published in a couple of them before they became "slick page fanboy mags" aimed at urban cowboys.

After reading much about him I think we have to look at him through the eyes of his time not ours. He was above all a survivor (except from his own physical condition). some one like Hickock could be flashy because he had a monumental skill to back it up. Holiday did not have that he had a willingness to do what was neccessary to survive. Some of his contemporaries described him as "laconic" which would be more fitting of the Quaid portrayal. When you realize that there was a certain amount of his reputation attributed to using a knife that is not the mark of a flashy gunfighter, quite the opposite.

I have thought for some time that, of all the actors that could have played him well in out era, perhaps the one who should have had the opportunity (at the proper age) would have been Tommy Lee Jones. Bear in mind that even humor was different in Holiday's era and I have seen Jones reflect that type of humor although most of the audience misses it. Drollness, with a certain serious certainty behind it, might be the best description

SRS
10-10-2012, 15:38
Kilmer. I don't know if it was really the better performance, but I certainly enjoyed it more. I've probably watched Tombstone a couple dozen times. Great movie.

series1811
10-10-2012, 15:42
Another good link with a lot of informaton.

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gaspald3/doc_holliday.htm

dre23
10-10-2012, 15:47
" I'll be your huckleberry " Kilmer for sure.

Foxterriermom
10-10-2012, 15:56
Kilmer, for sure. I laugh every time I see the cup slinging scene.

concretefuzzynuts
10-10-2012, 16:04
Val Kilmer nailed it.

NeverMore1701
10-10-2012, 16:56
And you took the time to share your pride in that.:rofl: Are you one of the guys who always pops into fast food threads to say how you never eat that stuff?

Well the title said I should have an opinion, so I figured I'd pop in and be "that guy" for once :supergrin:

gwalchmai
10-10-2012, 18:59
Kilmer, however, I think I'd rather spend some time trying to decide who was the better Josie.

Hamilton Burger
10-10-2012, 19:13
"Why Kate, you're not wearin' a bustle. How lewd!"

MAC702
10-10-2012, 19:18
I have ALWAYS liked Quaid.

I thought of Kilmer as a cartoon actor until he friggin' nailed Holliday.

And I still liked Quaid's Holliday, but it was no Kilmer.

Hunter8
10-10-2012, 19:40
Haha the whole time i was reading this i was thinking about the cup slinging scene.

bwvan
10-10-2012, 19:47
Val Kilmer.

zoyter2
10-10-2012, 19:47
I have no opinion on the subject, and do not care.

Stay above the hoi polloi, you god-like wonderful creature.

:rofl::rofl:

norm357
10-10-2012, 19:51
Kilmer owned the role.

Doc was from these parts. I know a bunch of his kin folks. There are still a lot of the Holiday family around.


Also, I was spinning a cup on my finger as I was reading everyones replys.

Dalton Wayne
10-10-2012, 19:53
Kilmer for the win.....

NeverMore1701
10-10-2012, 19:56
Stay above the hoi polloi, you god-like wonderful creature.

:rofl::rofl:

It sure can get tiring, but I try!







:supergrin:

Mushinto
10-10-2012, 22:46
Quaid was very good and his Holiday lt would have been considered great had Tombstone not come out at the same time.

tsmo1066
10-10-2012, 23:14
Definitely Kilmer. The historical Doc Holliday was dying of 'consumption' and knew he was facing a slow, agonizing death. He simply didn't give a crap about being shot because for him, dying in a gunfight was a more desireable fate than what he knew he was facing, and that made him a very dangerous, and very unpredictable man.

Kilmer NAILED those aspects of Holliday's character perfectly.

Dragoon44
10-10-2012, 23:26
I remember when Tombstone came out on DVD. I was at the movie rental store and this ditz ahead of me was telling the clerk she was renting the movie again because her boyfriend was so impressed by it. especially the part at the start of the movie that had actual footage of the real Doc Holiday.

Apparently she and her equally brilliant significant other thought the footage at the beginning of the movie that was shot to make it look old was actual historical footage.

:rofl::rofl:

kirgi08
10-10-2012, 23:47
Kilmer.'08.

Louisville Glocker
10-10-2012, 23:49
You guys inspired me. I'm watching Tombstone right now. Half an hour in...

Pretty cool so far. I used to drive past there every few months or so, between Tucson and Bisbee when I lived there. Cool to see it a hundred plus years earlier...

Thanks for motivating me to watch the movie!

kirgi08
10-10-2012, 23:50
"Why Ike".'08.

There is so many classic lines in that flick,sorta like Josey Wales.

HollowHead
10-10-2012, 23:58
I'd rather watch paint dry than watch a western, but Kilmer did the better job...and I like Quaid in everything he's done. HH

BEER
10-11-2012, 00:27
kilmer hands down.

Doc Holliday: And you must be Ringo. Look, darling, Johnny Ringo. The deadliest pistoleer since Wild Bill, they say. What do you think, darling? Should I hate him?

Kate: You don't even know him.

Doc Holliday: Yes, but there's just something about him. Something around the eyes, I don't know, reminds me of... me. No. I'm sure of it, I hate him.

AK_Stick
10-11-2012, 01:06
Kilmer. Absolutely.

Louisville Glocker
10-11-2012, 01:30
I'd rather watch paint dry than watch a western, but Kilmer did the better job...and I like Quaid in everything he's done. HH

You've got "where the buffalo roam" as your location, yet you can't watch a western. Odd. Very odd. There are some great western movies out there!!

Having lived out west (Arizona, California, Oregon), and knowing a bit about guns, I appreciate the movies even more. Your loss.

Psychman
10-11-2012, 05:01
[URL="http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1453626514/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-link"]http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51AN%2BgweB0L._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg

Tombstone: The Guns & Gear: Peter Sherayko: 9781453626511: Amazon.com: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51AN%2BgweB0L.@@AMEPARAM@@51AN%2BgweB0L

For everybody except Hollowhead :tongueout: This is a great book.

IndyGunFreak
10-11-2012, 05:17
Have to agree w/ most of the others.... Kilmer by a landslide.

SC Tiger
10-11-2012, 06:31
I grew up on "Old West", "True West", and "Frontier Times" magazines which were publications of well researched and sometimes directly anecdotal articles from the era. I was lucky enough to get a start at writing by having some of my work published in a couple of them before they became "slick page fanboy mags" aimed at urban cowboys.

After reading much about him I think we have to look at him through the eyes of his time not ours. He was above all a survivor (except from his own physical condition). some one like Hickock could be flashy because he had a monumental skill to back it up. Holiday did not have that he had a willingness to do what was neccessary to survive. Some of his contemporaries described him as "laconic" which would be more fitting of the Quaid portrayal. When you realize that there was a certain amount of his reputation attributed to using a knife that is not the mark of a flashy gunfighter, quite the opposite.

I have thought for some time that, of all the actors that could have played him well in out era, perhaps the one who should have had the opportunity (at the proper age) would have been Tommy Lee Jones. Bear in mind that even humor was different in Holiday's era and I have seen Jones reflect that type of humor although most of the audience misses it. Drollness, with a certain serious certainty behind it, might be the best description

That was my understanding as well. Holliday was not a "gunslinger" (the iconic western gunslinger was not nearly as common as the Hollywood western would have us believe) but a survivor. One could even say he was a little underhanded (IMO no such thing when your life is at stake).

I do disagree in that I can't see Tommy Lee Jones as Holliday. He's probably one of, if not the best, actors in Hollywood but I just can't get there.

Hour13
10-11-2012, 07:05
Kilmer. Fantastic movie, brilliantly cast. Kurt & Val played off of each other, and took a great story/movie to a whole new level.

Kilmer was absolutely the stand-out. He's been in some real turds, but every now and then he pops up, and delivers a role that hits you like a ton of bricks.


"Hell, I got lots of friends."

"I don't."


That one simple line drove the character home for me. Hits a nerve, and chokes me up a bit when I watch it.

Dammit, now I gotta watch that movie again.

..

Chuck66
10-11-2012, 08:23
Kilmer. Almost 20 years later and I still hear someone quote his lines from Tombstone at least once a week. Sometimes it's me. :)

badge315
10-11-2012, 08:34
IMO, Val Kilmer should have been nominated for an Academy Award for Best Supporting Actor for his portrayal of Doc Holliday.

brisk21
10-11-2012, 08:39
I have no opinion on the subject, and do not care.


Well its a good thing you posted in this thread, isn't it?


I liked Kilmer for sure. Quaid just doesn't fit Doc's personality for me. Kilmer nailed it.

rppnj
10-11-2012, 09:23
Val Kilmer...an amazing performance...

PBCounty
10-11-2012, 09:54
Kilmer FTW. What happened to him anyway? He's just a fat guy who does B flicks now.

CigarandScotch
10-11-2012, 10:07
As actors go, I have always favored Quaid. But in Tombstone, Val Kilmer transcended mediocrity and did a superior job.

sappy13
10-11-2012, 10:33
Kilmer by a long shot. It would be extremely hard to beat his portrayal of the character

mhill
10-11-2012, 10:38
Kilmer. He did a great job.

vrex
10-11-2012, 11:23
So it's Kilmer by a long shot, I know that Tombstone is utterly more watchable than the 3 hour Costner-fest 'Wyatt Earp"....still, there was something far less glamorous about Quaid. His character was wretched, unlikeable, and misunderstood, and in deep personal agony (aside from the TB) I liked the earlier scene in the film where he met Wyatt, and he went to grab the bottle and tipped it...Wyatt caught it, pulled it away, they looked at each other, then he pushed it back...a subtle and wordless explanation to their friendship. I read somewhere once that in that film Wyatt was ON HIS WAY to becoming a tragic character, until he met doc, proving his fathers words...."nothing counts so much as family, their the only ones you can count on"...wrong.

great performances.

Don't get me wrong, Kilmer's is one of the top performances of all time in any film, I firmly believe. I just really am starting to appreciate Quaids performance.

HollowHead
10-11-2012, 11:31
You've got "where the buffalo roam" as your location, yet you can't watch a western. Odd. Very odd.

I can't stand country music either, so there! HH

fnfalman
10-11-2012, 11:40
I've always liked Kirk Douglas's interpretation of Doc Holiday.

PBCounty
10-11-2012, 11:54
I've seen that movie probably twice a year since it came out and only a few months ago did I realize that Billy Bob Thornton was in it.

Dennis in MA
10-11-2012, 12:00
Man I hate Tombstone. What a vapid movie. Devoid of anything but "ME ME ME!" from start to finish. The Wyatt Burp portrayed in that flick was someone who ignored his wife and let her get hooked on H and then ignore her clear addiction to seek out some (not so very) hottie on a horse. I suspect the real Earp was probably a better man than the one portrayed in that flick.

And Kilmer as Doc? All I could think, in every scene, was "Pillowbiter?" The most effeminate portrayal by far. And yes, I'm entitled to my opinion, so thanks.

2-8 Marine
10-11-2012, 12:57
Anyone but Kirk Douglas.

:rofl:

Victor Mature was much worse in My Darling Clementine. :faint:
Oh Yeah! Kilmer all the way.
If you weren't my friend, I just couldn't bear it. Classic.

fnfalman
10-11-2012, 13:50
Victor Mature was much worse in My Darling Clementine. :faint:

Yeah, that was pretty bad.

Oh Yeah! Kilmer all the way.
If you weren't my friend, I just couldn't bear it. Classic.

Kilmer was great and the screenwriter should also get lots of credits for the dialogue.

The Dying Gaul
10-11-2012, 15:38
Val Kilmer was a superb and quintessential Doc Holliday. I doubt anyone will ever do it better.



Even so, a friend of mine is also superb as a Doc Holliday portrayalist with nearly 20 years experience and more than 1500 acting performances. Bob Boyle (http://oldwestactors.com/biorboyle.html) knows and can cite the life, history and words of Doc Holliday inside and out.

Bob has also developed one of the most extensive online references to the history, stories, accounts and photographs of the old west, called The Old West Daily Reader (http://oldwestdailyreader.com/). It is very entertaining and truly awesome in it's depth and scope.

Doc Holliday, or Bob as I know him, is a true gun guy, a shootist and big game hunter. Last weekend we shared our gun collections and stories. "Doc" brought out his original examples of Doc Holliday's derringer, fast draw Colt, and double barreled shotgun.

If you want to learn more about the real Doc Holliday, Wyatt Earp, Virgil Earp along with original photographs and articles, you should check out The Old West Daily Reader (http://oldwestdailyreader.com/).

http://oldwestactors.com/rboyle/picts/bobgunlarge.jpg

Thanks for the link, that website is awesome.

JohnBT
10-11-2012, 15:53
Another vote for Kirk Douglas.

Jake514
10-11-2012, 17:15
Kilmer as Doc was epic and the better- no question in my mind.

Now that I think about it, I also agree in real life Doc Holiday was probably a more of a survivor and implemented measures to ensure it. Movie example: Holiday was standing on the edge of the sidewalk and agitiating/ mouth battling with someone, however he already had a gun drawn and ready behind his back (in his left hand) to give him an edge in case the opponent did actually start to draw.

BEER
10-11-2012, 18:45
http://oldwestactors.com/rboyle/picts/bobgunlarge.jpg[/IMG]

if your friend is such a hardcore 'gun guy' then explain his trigger discipline.

tsmo1066
10-11-2012, 19:14
Man I hate Tombstone. What a vapid movie. Devoid of anything but "ME ME ME!" from start to finish. The Wyatt Burp portrayed in that flick was someone who ignored his wife and let her get hooked on H and then ignore her clear addiction to seek out some (not so very) hottie on a horse. I suspect the real Earp was probably a better man than the one portrayed in that flick.

And Kilmer as Doc? All I could think, in every scene, was "Pillowbiter?" The most effeminate portrayal by far. And yes, I'm entitled to my opinion, so thanks.

In reality, Wyatt Earp was a pimp and a scumbag of the first order. He was actually convicted of pimping hookers in Peoria years before he moved to Tombstone and while he was in Tombstone he had business partnerships with a brothel operating in that town.

The portrayal of him as an uncaring husband and adulterer is also spot-on from a historical perspective. By all accounts, he was a womanizing SOB, more concerned with gambling and whoring than with his wife's welfare and emotional health.

Earp is one of those historical figures who worked his way into legend, but in reality was a very unlikeable piece of crap (to put it bluntly). The main reason he is regarded as the hero lawman he is today is because he lived long enough to be involved as an advisor in the making of the first silent movies about the famous gunfight at the OK Corral, which were produced in the early 1920s. As a historical advisor on some of those movies, he made sure that he and Doc Holliday were portrayed in a very different light than what the reality of their life reflected, and it was those early Westerns that shaped the public image of Wyatt Earp that still permeates today.

That being said, however, Earp was without a doubt a fearless gunfighter - even if he was also a complete D-Bag!

fusegsp
10-11-2012, 19:50
if your friend is such a hardcore 'gun guy' then explain his trigger discipline.Are you bothered by the fact that he has a finger on a trigger, or are you bothered by the fact that he has two fingers on two triggers?:rofl:

bunk22
10-11-2012, 19:56
Val Kilmer for sure but from a historical standpoint, Quaid probably looked and played it truer to form. But Kilmer was awesome as Doc Holliday for sure.

HollowHead
10-11-2012, 21:26
if your friend is such a hardcore 'gun guy' then explain his trigger discipline.

Are not re-enactors exempt? Every old west tourist shoot-out I've ever seen breaks more gun rules then customers at Gander Mountain. HH

BAILIFF
10-11-2012, 21:32
Kilmer, for sure. I laugh every time I see the cup slinging scene.

http://i.minus.com/ibnlOvm3MZJPiZ.gif

NeverMore1701
10-11-2012, 21:33
Are not re-enactors exempt? Every old west tourist shoot-out I've ever seen breaks more gun rules then customers at Gander Mountain. HH

Oh god ain't that the truth!


:rofl::rofl::rofl:

skeeter1959
10-11-2012, 22:01
I read that in the end, Doc and Wyatt had a falling out and were not "friends to the end". Both Doc and Wyatt ran brothels so they wern't saints, but badasses for sure.

Geeorge
10-12-2012, 04:22
Kilmer and Russel are my choice

Costner's movie was way to long and draw out like some of his others

Narkcop
10-12-2012, 04:28
I think Kilmer gave one of the best performances I have ever seen by an actor. Quaid wasn't bad either.

Fred Hansen
10-12-2012, 05:15
Kilmer

tsmo1066
10-12-2012, 09:21
Are not re-enactors exempt? Every old west tourist shoot-out I've ever seen breaks more gun rules then customers at Gander Mountain. HH

Then again, the gunfighters they portray weren't exactly poster-children for firearm safety, either. I think being staggering drunk 23 hours per day while carrying was pretty much a pre-requisite for most of the Old West's top gunslingers.

NeverMore1701
10-12-2012, 11:51
Then again, the gunfighters they portray weren't exactly poster-children for firearm safety, either. I think being staggering drunk 23 hours per day while carrying was pretty much a pre-requisite for most of the Old West's top gunslingers.

Hell, at least I have precedent!

tsmo1066
10-12-2012, 12:30
Hell, at least I have precedent!

:rofl:

JAY-TX
10-12-2012, 15:00
I think Kilmer was the best. Quiad wasn't bad either though.

The real Doc Holliday was apparently a real character. Wyatt was employed in the law enforcement field. As such he had a public image to uphold. Doc OTOH didn't care what people thought of him. Doc was supposedly lightning fast with a gun. Maybe only second to John Wesley Hardin as far as gunplay in close quarters was concerned. The gambling circuit in that era was extensive. Doc was routinely considered the number one or two player on the circuit.

czsmithGT
10-12-2012, 15:04
Kilmer